they alleadge any one Orthodoxall Father of the Primitiue Church a circumstance much to be considered and insisted vpon interpreting such your testimonies in your construction And thus farre of this point where for greater expedition I do but skimme the matter ouer D. WHITAKERS I do not much prize the authorities of the ancient Fathers in interpreting the Scripture And furthermore you are to conceiue that seing the scripture hath not viâ—am vocem which we may heare Therefore we are to vse certaine meanes by the which we may finde out which is the sence and construction of the scripture For to seeke it without meanes is meerely ' enthysiasticòn et Anabaptisticum Now the meanes according to my iudgment and M. Doctour Reinolds are these following The reading of the scriptures the conference of places the weighing of the circumstances of the Text Skill in tongues diligence prayer and the like And who hath these and accordingly practiseth them is assured of finding the true and vndoubted meaning of the most difficult passages of the scripture and thereby is able to determine any controuersies in Religion CARD BELLARM. I do grant that these are good humane meanes for the searching out of the intended sence of the scripture But I will neuer yeild them to be infallible as here you intimate theÌ„ to be since this is not only impugned by experience of Luther and Caluin who would no doubt equally vaunt of their enioying these meanes and yet irreconcileably differ in the construction of the words of our Sauiour touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also it is most contrary to your owne assertion deliuered in one of your bookes euen against my selfe where you write of the vncertainty and perhaps falshood of these Meanes in this manner obserue what the meanes are such of necessity must the interprteation be but the meanes of interpreting obscure places of scripture are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous therefore it cannot otherwise fall out but that the interpretation must be vncertayne and if vncertaine then may it be false Thus you M. Doctonr and if I haue in any sort depraued your words then here challenge me for the same Now what say you to this Can it possible be that your selfe should thus crosse your selfe Or may it be imagined that your penne at vnawares did drop downe so fowle a blot of contradictioÌ„ O God forbid The ouersight were too greate Therefore we will charitably reconcile all and say that D. Whitakers Bellarmines aduersary in writing hath only contradicted the learned D. Whitakers cheife ornament of Cambridge But enough of this point from whence the weakenesse of this your last refuge to only scripture is sufficiently layd open MICHEAS I grant I am not conuersant in the authorities of the New Testament as they haue reference to the controuerted points of these dayes since my cheife labour hath beene employed in diligently reading the Law and the Prophets neuerthelesse I am acertayned M. Doctour that seuerall passages of the said Law and Prophets in a plaine and ingenuous construction do greatly fortify some Opinions defended by the Church of Rome I will insist for greater compendiousnes in two opinions taught as I am informed by the sayd Church within which two many other controuersies if not all are implicitl infolded The first is touching the euer Visibility of the Church in the time of the Messiâ—s Now what can be more irrefragably prooued then this article out of those words of the Psalmist He placed his Tabernacle in the Sunne As also out of that passage of Daniell Akingdome which shall not be dissipated for euer and his kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people Agayne out of the Prophet Esay A Mountaine prepared in the top of Mountaines and exalted aboue Hills And finally more out of Esay Her Sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid In all which predictions by the words Tabernacle a Kingdome a Mountaine her Sunne is vnderstood the Church in the time of the Messias according to the expositions of all our learned Iewes and Rabbins interpreting and commenting the sayd Prophesies The second article may be the Controuersie touching Free-will which I heare is mainteined by the Church of Rome but denyed by the Protestants within which question diuers others to wit of Predestination Reprobation the keeping of the Commandements Works c. are potentially included Now how euidently is Free-will prooued out of the writings of the Old Testament And first may occurre that of Ecclesiasticus He hath set Water and fire before thee stretch forth thy hand to whether thou wilt Before man is life death good and euill what liketh him shal be giuen him what more conuincing D. WHITAKERS Micheas I make smale accoumpt of that place of Ecclesiasticus neither will I beleeue the freedome of Mans will although he should affirme it a hundred times ouer that before man were life and death MICHEAS I did not expect M. Doctour that you should expunge out of the Canon of Scripture any part of the Old Testament but since you discanon this booke I will alleadge other places which were euer acknowledged for the sacred word of God by vs Iewes and to pretermit that text in Genefis of Caine hauing liberty ouer sinne as a place strangely detorted by some and diuers other texts in the old Testament proouing the same What say you of the like passage in Deuteronomy I call heauen and earth in record this day against you that I haue set before you life and death c. choose therefore life Where you see the very point of which you are so diffideÌ„t is ingeminated and reinforced Thus M. Doctour you see how much these sacred Testimonies do wound you herein as also do diuers other passages by me here omitted euicting Mans Free-Will though all of them haue bene accordingly interpreted by all ancient Iews and Rabbins as more fully you may see in Galatinus D. VVHITAKERS Touching your testimonies produced out of the old Testament and interpreted in the Papists sence by your owne Iewish Rabbins as witnesseth Galatinus take this for my answere I do not regard or neede your Galatinns neither do I rely vpon the testimonies of the Hebrewes And further knowe you both that it is as cleare that the scripture maketh for vs who are the Professours of the Ghosple as it is cleare that the Sunne shineth in his brightest Meridian Since we Protestants are d the little flocke we haue the vnction from the Holy one and can cry Abba Pater from all which the Papists are wholy excluded And this is sufficient to ouerthrow the proudest Romanist breathing CARD BELLARM. Sweete Iesus that thinges sacred should be thus prophaned and that the words of the scripture should be thus detorted from the intended sence of the scripture when all proofes whatsoeuer from the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church from the ioynt and most frequent
Apoc. 17 f That Ochinus vpon the not performance of the Prophecyes of the old testament in the Church of Christ denyed the Trinity taught Circumcision and became an absolute Apostata is witnessed by Zanchius the Protestant in his booke de tribus elohim printed 1594. l 5. c. 9. As also by CoÌ„radus Slussenb a Protestant in Theolog. Caluinist lib. 1. fol. 9. The tytle of which chapter in Sluffenberg is respontio ad Ochini blasphemiam And lastly the same is auerred by Beza in Polygam pag. 4. g That Neuserus through the want of the performance of the foresaid Prophecyes denyed our sauiour Christ reputed him a seducer turned Turke and was circuÌ„cized at Constantinople is witnessed by Osiander the Protestant Cent. 16. part 2. pag. 818. in these words Adam Neuserus Pastor Heidelbergensis c. prolapsus est in Turcismum Consiantinopole circumcisus As also by Conradu Slussenberg in Theolog. Caluin lib. 1. art 2. fol. 9. in these words Adam Neuserus olim Heidelbergensis Ecclesia primarius Pastor ex Zwinglianisâ—â— per Arianismum ad Mahometismum progressus est h Ioan. 1. i Ioan. 1. k Esay 6. * Malacâ— cap. 4. l Act. 4. m See hereof the first part of the CoÌ„â—erted â—ew at the beginning n Bale in prefat act Rom poÌ„tific printed 1558. initio * Caluin l. descandalis extant iu tract Theolog printed 1597 pag. 111 vt supra dicitur o 2. Io. an 2. p Osiander cent 16. part 2. pag. 647. saith of Dauid George Vtebatur publico Vir Dei ministerio Basiâ—ienâ—i c. q See historia Dauidis Georgij printed at Antwerp 1568 published be the deuines of Basil r Conradus Slussenberg in Theolog. Caluin l 1. art 2. f. 9. Alemanus Bezae antea famiâ—iarissimâ—s â—irenuê° Caluinista Râ—ligioni Christianae longum valde dixiâ— factus est Apostata Iudaeus blasphemus s Sâ— writeth Beza in epist 65. p. 308. t Stancurus de mediatore fol. 38. u Epist Theol. 81. x In Paâ—aenesi y Lib 1. câ— 19 l 3. c. 3. 8. and in diuers other places thereof z Lib 1. de Theol. Caluin aâ—t 2. c. 9. a Cent. 16. p. 207. 208. 209. b Lib. de ratione interpretaÌ„di 〈◊〉 1 p. 62. 63. And Osiander in Cent. 16. who saith Sebastianus Castaleo vir asprimè doctus c dinguarum peritâ—ssimus c In the Preface of the great Latin Bible dedicated to King Edward the sixt d Oslander in epitom cent 16. p. 209. reporteth that Neuserus being turned Turke and circumcised at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople did write these words to one D. Gerlachius a Protestant Preacher at Tubinga from Constantinople e D. Reynolds in his censura libroruÌ„ Apocryphorum tom alter in the table of Contents set before there at the nuÌ„bers 161. 175. 176. defendeth against Bellarm Ochinus his book writteÌ„ against the Masse f Exod. 3. * Acts. c. 23. g Beza 〈◊〉 de Polygamia printed 1527. p. 4. saith of this point Pelygamiam nemo vnqua 〈…〉 callidius vel impuâ—entiâ—s defendit quam impurus ille Apostata Ochinus iâ— quibusdam D 〈…〉 h Adamus Neuserus Conc 〈…〉 natores inâ—â— Palatinat fiad suam 〈◊〉 dem perd xiâ— con â—tacta cum Sacerdotibus in Tur câ—a amicitia datiâ— atque acceptis vltro citroque literis Mahometanam religionem in Germania propagare 〈◊〉 ter conat 〈…〉 est In Colloquio priuato inter CatholicuÌ„ Pastorem Baduini Ministrum Coloniae Anno. 1591. p. 5â—â— i Beza in epist 1. p. 11. calleth Ochinus Arianorum â—â—aâ—dâ—sâ—â—nus sautor Poligâ—niae 〈◊〉 omniam Christianae religionis dogmatum irrisor k Beza de polygaâ—ia p 4. calleth Ochinus impurus Apostata as aboue is shewed in the margenâ— a Psal 4. b D. Fulke in his answere to a Counterfeyte Catholick p. 27. and in his Reioinder to Bristowes Reply p. 343. c In his coÌ„siderations of the Papists reasons p. 105. d Lib. de votis pag. 476. e In his preface vpon the New Testament dedicated to the Prince of Condy. f In his defence of the Answere to the Admonition p. 472. 473. g Melancthon in 1. Cor c. 3. h Tom. 2. Wittenberg anno 2551. de â—eruo arbitrio pag. â—34 i In his exposition of the Creed p. 307. k Vpon the Reuelations 〈◊〉 43. l M. Napper vbi supra p. 68. m Vbi supra p. 191. n In epist de abrog in vniuersum omnibus statut Ecclesiast o In his answere to a counterfeyte Catholicke p. 35. p Lib. de Votis pag. 477. q Pag. 13. r In his treatise of Antichr l. 2. c. 2. p. â—5 s Histor SacrameÌ„t lib. 1. c. 6. pag. 20. * Michaeas cap. 4. * D. Whitakers saith so l. coÌ„tra Duâ—aeum l. 3. p. 249. a Pag. 3. b Pag. 17. c Pag. 24. d Psalm 12. 1. Samuâ—l 22. Esay 1. 5. 6. Ezech. 22. besides others e Lib. de vnâ—tat Eccleâ— c. 12. f Math. g 1. Timoth 3. * Ierome aduers 〈…〉 ucâ—erean i Lib. coÌ„tra Eunomium k Orationes quinque in theolog l Lib. de Trinitate m Catecheses n Lib. 9. de Trinitate o In c. 1. ad Timot. p Contra Arian haeres 69. s Pag. 100. t Pag. 89. u Pag. 30. x Lib. de Haeres c. 23. 46. z Luther epist ad Bohem. lib de captiuit Babylon 〈…〉 de Euchar. 1 Athan. in Apolog. pro fulga 2 Ierom. lib. contra Pelag. 3 Ierom. lib. contra Vigilant 4 Austin lib. de Haeres c. 46. * Pag. 52. a Epist 244. b In tract de Eccles p. 124. c Pag. 54. d Pag. 56. e Pag. 56. f Illyr catal testium Vetir tom 2. printed 1597. pag. 872. Valla in his Apol. ad Eugenium Papam 4. PoÌ„tif prope finem h Pag. 57. sequentib i Pag. 58. k Pag. 59. 〈◊〉 Pag. 60. m Pag. 69. n Pag. 71. o Pag. 7â— * Pag. 78. l r Pag. 79. 80. * Pag. 81. 1 Cant. 24 del Paâ—ad That is O eternal light of that great man To whom our Lord did leaue the keyes which He did carye with wonderfull ioye 2 Cant. 2. dell Inferno 3 Cant. 19. dell Inferno 4 Cant. 22. del ' Inferno 5 Lib. 1. Seuilium EpistolaruÌ„ ad TalanaÌ„dum Cardinalem 6 Lib. 1. Inuectiuarum contra Medicum 7 Pag. 81. * Vide Fox in act Mon. speaking of this IoaÌ„neâ— de Rupe scissa * Pag. 81. t Pag. 82. u Pag. 91. x EpitoÌ„ Cent. 12. p. 309. y Cent. 12 col 1627. and 1638. a Pag 92. b Pag. 93. c Pag. 95. d Pag. 96. e pag. 96. f In his Relation of thestate of ReligioÌ„ vsed in the Westparts of the World in the last folâ—o but fiue g In their booke entituled Acta Theologorum Wittenbergensoum Ieremiae Patriarchae Constanâ—inâ—p de Augustana CoÌ„fession c. Wittenbergae Anno 1584. i Pag. 97. k Pag. 98. 99. 100. 〈◊〉 Pag. 102. m Pag. 103. n Pag. 110. a Act. 24. The Iewes
the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes Which Position is indeed the iuncture without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary In whom rather then in any other Protestant I haue peculiarly and ex professo made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome principally because there is no Protestant wryter that I know who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change as Doctour Whitakers hath done as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe agaynst Father Campion that blessed Saint and cheifly against Duraeus where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt Yet here you are to conceaue that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change for I assure you I haue omitted nothing of Moment which I could fynd in their Bookes to be obiected in proofe thereof though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books where such their sentences or authorities are to be found And yet learned Men notwithstanding all that which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe sooner shall they prooue that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures situations in their Orbe then that Rome hath changed it fayth So true are those words of an auncient Father Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem semper eam retinet What sentences authorities or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books and in a seuerall Character from that which he speaketh at large in the person of a Protestant and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words from the words of a Protestant in generall In like sort what intemperate speeches euen loaded with malice and rancour the Doctourâ—seth â—seth against the Church of Rome are not by me forged and fathered vpon him But are especially those which are most virulent his owne words yet extant in his Bookes and accordingly they are printed in a different letter with the Latin words set in the margent So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour by vniustly obtruding vpon him any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues or Pasquills The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes where with they here charge the Church of Rome I meane in demonstrating that it is the Protestant who hath made in fayth this change and innouation from the auncient fayth of the Apostles And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths doctrines together and the antiquity of the one and innouation of the other you shall find that errour is best knowne by truth as death is knowne bylife Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing In like sort that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English which are in this Dialogue alleadged Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues touching the Persons in them produced as that they are now liuing and that they all liued at one tyme c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues since in this kind of writing the Persons you know are forged for the matter and not the matter for the Persons And thus much touching the first Dialogue Now to descend to the second Dialogue The subiect wherof is to demonstrate that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church much lesse from the Apostles dayes till Luthers reuolt And which is more that not any one Man during all that long Period of tyme nor Luther himselfe can be truly insisted vpon for a perfect absolute Protestant and such as the present Church of England can or will acknowledge to be a member of it Which point being once euicted How deadly it woundeth the Protestants may easily appeare in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church whose expansion enlargment and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes is much celebrated in Holy writ Her sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas the Iew Ochinus who first in King Edward the sixt his dayes did diseminate Protestancy at least seuer all points of Protestancy here lâ— England Doctour Reynolds of Oxford and Neuserus chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate Why Ochinus Neuserus are brought in as speakers in this Dialogue the Argument prefixed therto will show I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church in Doctour Reynolds as a Man who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare to whom as being of good temperance in his writings in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle only I wish his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much If any of you shall muse why in these Dialogues all the Protestants being otherwise presumed to be most learned do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments as here you shall find them to do you are to conceaue that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted Now both the Cardinall and Michaeâ—s for the most part do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants speaking in those points agaynst themselues and in behalfe of the Catholickes Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply agaynst the Caidinall or agaynst Michaeas But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue And here I do auouch that to maintayne that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther though euen then it was not in it perfection is no lesse absurd in reason then to maintayne that the byrth of any thing can precede it conception and the effect the cause True it is that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret and indeed blind Moules who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church haue labored
Faith Secondly we will enquire and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued That is how longe Papistry as you commonly tearme it hath bene publikly professed and taught throughout all Christendome Thirdly and lastly we will then take a view of the times betweene these two former seuerall times for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides to wit the time during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles and the time during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward it ineuitably followeth that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times or els that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all Now concerning the first of these times how long in the Protestants iudgements M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine or alteration in any point of moment or Article of beliefe for that only is to be enquired the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS I will confesse in all ingenuity that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated till after the deaths of Optatus Epiphanius and Augustine which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ CARD BELLARMINE You say most truely and I do like your playnesse herein since he is truely politike espetially in matters of Religion which require all candour in theire menaging who is not politicke For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted that Tertullian prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation in these words The argument then drawne from Succession was good because the Church of Rome retained by Succession vntill Tettullians dates that Faith which it did first receaue from the Apostles To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe M. Doctour in your booke writen against me subscribs thus saying from hence we do vnderstaÌ„d why TertulliaÌ„ did appeale to those Churches to wit because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession But to descend further in time touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumeÌ„t drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus Cyprian Optatus Hierome Vincentius Lyrinensis and Augustine all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome still continued till their daies your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort That these Fathers especially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles With whome accordeth D. lewell saying Aswell Augustine as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome c. for the purity of Religion which was there preserued a loÌ„g time without spot To conclude Caluine himselfe euen in the same manner answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê insisted vpon by Irenaeus Tertullian Origen Augustine Optatus Epiphanius and others for thus Caluine speaketh Cùm extra controuersiam esset nihil à principio vsque ad aetâ—â—tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine froÌ„ the beginning to that very age was changed these holy Fathers did take that which they thought sufficient for the destroying of all new Errours to wit the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent retayned euen from the Apostles dayes till their tymes Thus Caluine To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence out of D. Fulke saying The Popish Church c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe Thus he granting that till S. Augustins death the Church of Rome was the true Church so euident and clere we se it is that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it vntill the times of S. Augustin Epiphanius Optatus c. which was as is aboue sayd foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ Thus farre M. Doctor concerning the durance of the tymes euen by the Protestants frequent confessions that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome Tonching which poynt Irefere you for greater satisfaction to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers to wit of Hierome Ireâ—aeus Augustine Vincentius Lyrâ—neâ—sis Ambrose c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth and consequently was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration Now all this being made thus euident it followeth according to our designed Method that we consider the number of those ages during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards the present Roman Fayth hath by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants do grant that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith so long it followeth by their owne implicit censures and most necessary inferences that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth Therfore M. Doctour I would know of you what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance and antiquity of our present Roman and Catholicke Religion D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth for a thousand yeares at least For first D. Humfry my worthy sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England being sent by Gregory the Great then Pope of Rome who liued in the yeare 590 thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion In Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus Onus ceremoniarum c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church They did bring a burden of Ceremonies They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall for the solemnization of the Masse They did bring in Purgatory c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast and prayer for the dead c. Relicks Transubstantiation c. a new conscecratioÌ„ of Temples c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences Monachisme Papisme and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition all this did Augustine the great Monke being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke bring to the English men Thus farre D. Humfry CARD BELLARM. Well then M. Doctour it clearely appeares by this that
owne death Neither lastly if not any historiographer of the Iewish tymes did in their workes and writings giue the least touch therof But pardon me both of you for this my interrupting and I would intreat you to proceede further in this your learned discourse CARD BELLARM. I will satisfie your request but before I descend to any other argument I will annex to my former demonstration for I can tearme it no lesse drawne from the silence of Doctours in contradicting and Historiographers in relating any presumed innouations in the Church of Rome these ensuing Considerations 1 First we finde that the lesse iustifiable liues conuersatioÌ„ in manners of some few Popes were precisely regestred and recorded to all Posterity with intention perhaps to disgrace all Popes as if all Popes were to be represented in some one or other lesse vertuous Pope as all men are in Adam Now then this being most true can we probably thinke that the Historians of those ages being euer ready prepared to taxe the Personall vices of the Popes themselues who as you see were forced by this meanes to passe the Red sea of shame disgrace and obloquy all of them would be wholy silent in relating the greatest change in Religion that euer happened if any such chang had truly really bin effected 2 Secondly we all knowe that the Greeke Church hath bin for many ages emulous of the Church of Rome and therfore if the present Church of Rome had anciently made any Diuision or Scissure from the true Church of Christ the Grecians no doubt who then stood euer vpon the hight of Enâ—â—y the better presently to espy any arising aduantage against the church of Rome would haue bene most apt to recommend the memory of such a change in our church to all after ages in their Histories But no such records we finde in any of their writings Yea the Grecians are so far from that as that on the contrary side the present Church of Rome is able to specifie and note out of most ancient and approoued Authours the very times when the Grecians first introduced those particuler Opinions wherin at this day they dessint from our Roman and catholicke church I will insist for breuity in some few cheife examples First their deniall of Obedience to the Sea of Rome was begun by Iohn of Constantinople and was noted and writen against by Gregory the Great and Pelagius Their denial of the proceedings of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne tooke it beginning and at it first rysing was gainsaid and contradicted about the yeare 764. Their deniall of prayer for the dead was begun by Arius and impugned by Epiphanius l and Augustine Their bringing in of leauened bread by the Grecians in the celeberation of the Eucharist was first begun about the yeare 1053. as appeareth out of the writings of Leo the nynth and the Centurists Now can it be imagined that those being few in number could so precisely be contradicted writen against and left regestâ—ed to all posterity and yet this supposed change of the church of Rome consisteth in bringing in of far more Articles in number and of as great consequence should neuer be noted nor impunged by any one Doctour or Father nor recorded nor obserued by any one Historiographer the said Doctours Fathers Historiographers liuing in the very same ages wherin this supposed alteration is sayd to haue hapned By the same ground might Pythâ—goras well maintayne as in his books he attempted to do that the earth being in speciall motion of 24 houres our selues because we are carryed together with this reuolution cannot obserue that any such motion of the earth is 3 Thirdy we may call to mind that wheras the Ceremonies in the celeberation of the Masse were successiuely and at seuerall tymes added and first brought in by seuerall Popes So we finde accordingly that the Aduersaries of the present Church of Rome as willing to discouer our innouations though in the smalest matters for Malice is glade to take hould of the least aduantage and but in points of indifferency haue most diligently and painfully recorded them in their seuerall bookes written of this very subiect with all due circumstances both of the Popes introducing them and the tymes when they were introduced Here now I vrge If the Enemyes of the present Church of Rome being thus diligent and sollicitous in noting the beginning of eich Ceremony of the Masse all such Ceremonies being meerely accidentall to the Masse and without which the Masse may as truly and effectually be celebrated as with them If they I say could haue discouered any innouation in the maine Doctrine it selfe of the Masse as in the Doctrine of the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of Christs body there offered vp our Adoration of the Sacrament the Priests enioyned chastity for such his celebration would they haue bin silent therin or rather would they not haue loaded their books with the relation of all such innouations they consisting not in smale ceremonies but in most sublime and high dogmaticall points of Christian Religion If otherwise then belike our Aduersaries would haue vs to thinke that herin they resemble the Sunne which reuealeth the Terrestriall Globe being but of a litte quantity but concealeth the Celestiall which is of a far more spatious greatnes But to proceed and to conclude the force of this argument drawne from the impugning and recording of innouations in doctrine if this precise course by our Aduersaryes acknowledgments hath euer bin kept during all precedent ages without intermission in all matters confessed and out of controuersy betweene vs and the Protestants shall we dreame that it was so wholy neglected and forgotteÌ„ touching the supposed innouation of our Catholicke Doctrines as that such our cheife doctrines though first really brought in in those former tymes were neither at there first beginning impugned by any Doctours or Fathers of those ages nor recorded or mentioned by any one Ecclesiasticall Historiographer among so many of the same or later tymes But now to vndertake according to your desire Micheas an other argument You Protestants M. Doctour do affirme that this our present Roman Religion is Antichristian for so commonly most of you in your charitable language do stile it and that the Pope is the true Antichrist deciphered by the Apostle for his first introducing and defending of the sayd Religion and vpon this ground you teach that Papistry first came in when Antichrist first came in D. WHITAKERS We do so teach indeed For seing our mayne assertioÌ„ is that your Religion is Antichristian we cannot euen by the nature of Relatiues seuer and deuide so indissoluble companions they are the one from the other I meane Papistrie from Antichrist he being the Man who first did disseminate it and now the heade who cheifly principally and with all wicked molitions and machinations whatsoeuer maintayns it CARD BELLARM. You are M. Doctour it
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
say as of the halfeblood to a Protestant so little affinity there is betweene the Protestants Religion and these Mens religion I grant that some Protestants and these but very few and of meane esteeme do instance through their security of better examples in these your mentioned men but how coldy and weakly we will now discouer And first touching the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus I say first that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes Secondly I auer that it was forged by some Heretike that denyed the doctrine of Images perhapps in those dayes but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus This I prooue first because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome and it fayth in generall And therefore the lesse probable it is that he should wrâ—t or suffer to be written in his name any booke inpugning but any one point of that Religion I will relate the words of Hospinian the Protestant touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth Thus be sayth Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts that the Ceremonyes rites the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome should be obserued through out the whole Empyre but also himselfe did force the Churches to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments and other kinds of punishments with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus M. Cowper and Osiander Secondly in that it is acknowledged by learned writers that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those who impugned Images For Paulus Aemilius witnesseth that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians against Images The same doctrine of Images as defended by Carolus is further confessed by the Centurists D. Cowper and by Ioannes Aurelianensis who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus Thirdly and lastly there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian to Carolus Magnus which booke was purposely written against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images a point so euident that Caluin intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke thus saying Eâ—tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine c. There is extant a booke of refutation vnder the name of Carolus Magnus which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke Touching the supposed booke of Beriram written de Corpore Sanguine Domine and dedicated to Charle the Bawld as said to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius in the name of Bertram I say M. D. first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence vsing the words figure spirituall and Mystery with such qualifications as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence yea which is more this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence as that the Centurists do thus censure of it Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation Secondly the Catholicke wryters of those tymes as Hospinian relateth at large did honour Bertram as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church How then is it probable that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles defended beleiued by the said Church Thus far of Bertram Touching Vlricke who was Bishop of Augusta who is vrged for a Protestant in that it is supposed he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage and printed lately at Basill We reply that by force of all Reason this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead or before that Vlrick was borne For as Onuphrius writeth Pope Nicolas the first to whom it is supposed Vlrick should write was elected Pope anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares and two months dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares dyed anno 973. Of which point we may reade Vspergensis Cytraeus Pantaleon D. REYNOLDS But what say you Michaeas touching Burengarius I hope it cannot be denyed but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation MICHAEAS I come to Burengarius who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers who is challenged for a Protestant for his deniall of Transubstantiation in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist I answere first It is true that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation yet afterwards he recanted his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article Secondly I answere that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius did hould diuers errours euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius the Protestant who thus writeth of him Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum coniugium Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants and Marriage And againe Damnata est Berengarij Opinio Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood Also Papir Masson in his Annals of France writeth that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme denyed that men committing mortall sinne could euer obtaine Pardon and further that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes though himselfe before his death according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers recanted his Heresyes But M. D. and you Gentlemen I will conclude this passage with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe suppose therefore for the tyme that these former bookes were doubtfull but truly penned by the Authours vnder whose name they go suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation suppose finally that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes houlding this or that point of Protestancy yet what can all this conuince It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church seeing all these thus admitted are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy still remayning in all other articles wholy Catholicke And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke herein who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram Berergarius and those others reiecteth them in these
sheepfould but clymeth another way is a theife I now demand M. Doctour who did call Luther Hus Wicklefe c. to preach the word and administer the Sacraments Or by whom were they sent D. REYNOLDS I here answere with Caluin Beza and D. Fulke that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes MICHAEAS This is but extrauagantly spoken and merely forged by you Protestants M. D. as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling But to refute this phantasy Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed as it was in the Apostles with working of miracles euen by the iudgment of the Protestants theÌ„selfe Among whom Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling saying Vnde venis quis te 〈…〉 isâ—◠〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 que is a Deo missum esse testantur See how by Gods prouidence Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe And therefore D. Bilsâ—n as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling not warranted with Miracles thus confesseth They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession Thus then Luther Huâ— Wicklefe and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling immediatly by God himselfe since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke whose words are these It is knowne that Caluin and the rest whom Papists call Archhereticks do worke no Miracles D. REYNOLDS Some learned Protestants to wit D. Whitakers D. Bridges and others do auerre that it is not improbable to affirme that Wicklefe Hus Luther c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome Which calling was conferred vpon them before their departure out of that Church Which opinion of theirs admitting it for true taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument MICHAEAS Neuer M. D. doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds more windings and turnings to saue her life then you Protestants do here to salue your Vocation for you being here stabled to get your selfe out of the myre sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary and immediate from God warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms forsooth and illuminations But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church making it your Sanctuary But see with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed For besides that Walde as being a Layman neuer receaued any calling from thence Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church Antichristian seing it seemes you confesse that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther Hus and the rest and to their successours or descendents which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church For if the Pope be Antichrist and his Church Antichristian as your Brethren in their pulpitts do vociferate then how can you pretend their Calliâ—g to be sufficient and warrantable seing your owne men teach that in Babylon meaning thereby the Church of Rome there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed but a mere vsurpation And most certaine it is and confessed by all learned Men that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission for the Preaching of the Word of Christ and admitting the Sacraments of Christ Now if Luther Hus Wicklefe and the rest do want true calling then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility So plunged we see you Protestants are when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther Hus Wicklefe and their successours And thus far now Learned Men to demonstrate that supposing Waldo Wicklefe Hus Luther and the rest instanced in your precedent passages had bene in all points of beliefe Protestants that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks in any Catholicke doctrines nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes yet it is most euident in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church in that manner as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant and peculiarly by our selfs according to the beginning of this our disputation OCHINVS With M. Doctour good leaue who hath showed great reeding in his former examples though they be not so conuincing and pregnant as I did hope to find them Neuserus and I will vndertake to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church in all precedent ages And you are heare Learned Michaeas to know I am of opinion that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen for all these former tymes by you mentioned yet followeth it not that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes which is only the Question betweene vs for many Reasons may be giuen why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes And one Reason may be this you know well the Popes for many ages haue borne more then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion euer endeuouring by all meanes possible to extirpate it out Therefore my iudgment is that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages as they labored by all courses to extinguish all remembrance of them as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants thus hoping that the Memory of them might be interred with their Bodyes This is my opinion I meane that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes through the Popes affected malignity MICHAEAS It is strange to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings that there can be named Protestants liuing in euery Century since Christ as you M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse with great venâ—itation did vndertake to performe Now you retyre backe Ochiâ—â—s from M. D. assertion and say doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other were concealed from Posterity So distracted you are in your owne iudgements passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man since now zealously to affect an opinion at another tyme to let the same saulle by entertayning the contrary opinion is but the Ague of an irresolute and inconstant iudgement But to come to the point First I say that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. Dâ—â—tours former Instances For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes by the Popes
Agens as here you say how then can we know that Berengarius Waldo Wicklefe c. were Protestants And if these and others were Protestants then was not Protestancy and the Mantayners of it wholy extinguished by the former Popes sedulity and diligence How do you extricate your selfe Ochinus out of this Labyrinth Agayne I say this your sentence is but a meere Imagination wrought in the forge of your owne brayne For you haue neyther proofe nor colour of proofe that either the names of Protestants in former ages should be concealed or their bookes or any other Records touching them should by the labored confederacy of the Popes and their followers be suppressed and made away And why then should here your bare asseueration be credited Secondly I vrge that such proceedings as here are pretended to be as the extinguishing the light and splendour of Christs Church for so many ages togeather do mainly impugne the Prophecyes of holy Scripture deliuered of it for we reade that it is sayd of Christs Church Her Sunne shal not be set nor her Moone hid That she shall not be giuen to another People but shall stand for euer That she shal be an eternall glory and ioy from Generation to generation All which Prophecyes besydes diuers others recited by your selfe afore tending to the exaltation and glory of Christs Church how dissortingly and disproportionably can they be auerâ—ed of the Protestant Church of former tymes If so the Annals Records and all other Monuments of it former being be wholy obliterated and extinguished Thirdly this Euasion contradicteth the more ingenious and playne acknowledgments of others of your owne Brethren who do teach that your Church for sundry ages hath remayned wholy inuisible or rather vtterly extinct I will here produce the authority only of D. Parkins His words are these For many hundred yeares past an vniuersall Apostasy hath ouerspred the whole face of the Earth And our Church hath not bene visible to the world Lastly and principally this your surmise impugneth all experience touching the cheife Occurrents of the same ages and times For first we find that the personall defects and blemishes of certaine Popes are registred in those tymes and the relation of them are at this present extant Neyther could the Popes preuent the same And from such relations do the Protestants and particularly you M. D. in some of your writings vpbraid vs with the lesse warrantable life of some Popes Now then these things standing thus how could the Popes hinder the registring of any Professours of fayth aduerse contrary to themselfs in those dayes It is absurd therefore to thinke that the Popes were well contented that their owne scarts should remayne to be seene by all posterity supposing it were their powers to preuent the same and yet should affectedly labour that all testimonyes of different professours in fayth from them but especially of Protestant Professours should be buryed in eternall silence and obliuion Themselfs not being able to forsee that protestancy should sweigh more in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth and Religion Againe the Examples of the Wrytings of Hus Wicklefe the pretended booke of Carolus Magnus the supposed booke of Bertram the connterfeyted Epistle of Vlrick and all other writings of the foresaid Hereticks or any others at this day yet extant not suppressed fight mainly with this your Opinion For were it not that the said Wrytings and bookes were yet remayning to the world the Protestants of these tymes could not haue knowne what articles of protestancy the said Heretickes did mantayne in those dayes Furthermore the very subiect of the Decrees and Canons of Catholicke Councels celebrated in all former ages is chiefly the condemning and anathematizing of particular Heresyes there verbatim set downe and expressed as they did rise in the same ages with commemoration and recitall of the Hereticall doctrine inuented and the person inuenting with all other due circumstances Ad hereto that your owne Brethren confesse what we here endeauour to proue Among whom D. Whitakers shall serue for all at this tyme who being glad to make clayme for Protestants of all such as in any sort resisted the Pope thus writeth to his Catholicke Aduersary Vestris historijs nostrae Ecclesiae memoria viget Et qui Pontificij regni res narrare conati sunt ij nostrae Ecclesiae sunt testis The memory of our Church florisheth euen in your Historyes And those who labored to relate the proceedings of the Popes Kingdome are become Witnesses of our Church Thus D. Whitakers Lastly we will adioyne to all the former experiences the historyes and Cronicles euen of the Protestants whose subiect taske designed labour is to relate and make mention of such strange new doctrines as did rise in euery age shewing how the said doctrines were not proued ouer in silence by the Church of Rome but how and when and in what Popes reigne they were openly gainsaid crossed and condemned by the said Church And all this the Protestant Historiographers do borrow from the Catholicks auncient Records for but for those Catholicke Records they could not tell how in these dayes to write of those matters This we see is performed very diligently by the Century writers in their seuerall Centuryes by Pantaleon in his Chronographia by Osiander in his Epitome Eccles And by Illyricus in his booke stiled Catalogus testium Veritatis qui ante nostram aetatem reclamarunt Papae And which is here to be noted as making more in our behalfe herein diuers of these opinions and doctrines thus related by these Protestants to haue bene condemned in former ages are such as are at this present mantayned for true doctryne by the Protestants Now from all these premisses we may fully gather how far those former ages or the Popes then liuing were from laboring and affecting to keepe in silence or suppresse any doctrine whatsoeuer or persons mantayning the same which did appeare to be repugnant to the faith and Religion of the Roman Church at those tymes But gentlemen I feare I haue bene ouer longe OCHINVS Learned Michaeas I do confesse I haue seldome seene the weaknes of an opinion more fully and irreplicably displayed then this of myne is by you at large euen by direct of seuerall reasons And therfore for euer after I am resolued wholy to disauthorize and depose it For indeed I see It is but a meere aery and vasperous Conceate instantly dissipated before the least beame of a cleare Iudgment NEVSERVS I do with you Ochinus acknowledge the transparency of it since an impartiall eye is at the first able to see through it But Michaeas I see no reason but that we may auer that the Protestant Church and the administration of the Word Sacraments were in all ages though the particular professours of it were latent and indeed inuisible through the raging tyranny and persecution wherewith the Popes of former times did afflict all those
Work A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words You can name the notable personages in all ages obserue these words in all ages and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order and vpon your fingars Thus D. Fulke 3. Thirdly We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility during the first six hundred years after Christ and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church by taking a view in generall how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants who indeed dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein do absoluâ—ly reiect them as inexcusable and grosse Papists For as for these last thousand yeares It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer that our Church hath bene most visible tyrannyzing they say ouer the true Church for so many ages And according hereto M Powell sayth From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous But to proceede If the most auncient most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church I meane Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Iustinus Ireneus Tertulâ—an Origen Cyprian Athanasius Hilarius the Cyrills the Gregoryes Ambrose Basill Optatus Gaudentius Chrysostome Ierome Austin and diuers others be accounted by our aduersaryes most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth then followeth it ineuitably that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church and then consequently the Church whereof they were Pastours must needs be visible That these primatiue Fathers were Papists as our Aduersaryes tearme vs appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes And first Peter Martyr thus confesseth of this point As long as we insist in the Fathers so long we shal be conuersant in their errours Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers Euen in the best tymes meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church the ambition ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such as the very blind may easily perceaue that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church Latin also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merit of Innocation of Saints and such like meaning such like Catholicke doctrines Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers who thus confesseth Presently from the beginning of the Church that is presently after Christ his Ascension the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth increased ceremonyes and deuised peculiar Worshipps But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words The Fathers for so many ages meaning after the Apostles haue bene blind and most ignorant in the Scriptures They haue erred all their lifetyme and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths they were neither Saincts nor pertayning to the Church Thus Luther And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church and consequently that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes 4. Fourthly The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued from that the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth since it first plantation by the Apostles Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth then followeth it demonstratiuely that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome euer since the Apostles and consequently that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes To proue that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true vndoubred euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much And here I am to craue pardon if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants aboue produced in this Dialogue Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages so here also diuers of them prooue so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church during the said tymes To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church I will ascend vp by degrees euen to and within the Apostles dayes And this because some Protestants as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow First then M Parkins thus sayth During the space of nyne hundred yeares the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander all which do in euery of the Centuryes from S. Gregories tyme to Luther name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth according to the Century or age wherin eich of them liued But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme thus saying The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope Sâ—luester and the Emperour Constantyn for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares And also againe from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein for thus he witnesseth During euen the second and third ages the true temple of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles thus wrytinge Presently after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth thus saying The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church then may we infer that the Church of Rome and it fayth as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour the false Church was visible immediatly
after the Apostles With D. Fulke agreeth Peter Martyr thus writing Errours did beginne in the Church presently after the Apostles tymes Peter Martyr heere vnderstanding by the word Errours our Catholycke doctrins with these three last Protestants the Authour of the booke called Antichristus siue pronosticon finis Mundi a Protestant thus iumpeth from the Apostles tymes till Luther the Gospell had neuer open passage Now this hinderance of the Gospell is supposed by hym to proceede from the Pope and Church of Rome therefore during all those tymes the Church of Rome hath beene visible But D Downham confesseth more freely herof who doth include the very tymes of the Apostles with in the Visibility of the Catholycke Roman Church thus teaching the generall defection of the Visible Church foretould 2. Thessol 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes he meaning hereby that the Visibility of our Catholicke Church did obscure in the Apostles dayes the Visibility of his Protestant Church From this Doctours sentence Hospinian the Protestant litle dissenteth who speaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist thus writeth I am tum primo illo saeculo viuentibus adhuc apostolis c. Euen the very first age the Apostles being aliue the deuill endeuored to deceaue more about this Sacrament then aboute Baptisme with drawing Men from the first forme thereof Thus iudicious Men you may fully see how visible at all tymes our Catholyâ—ke Church hath beene And of this Veritie you may be more fully assured not only by fiction from the discourse of Michaeas the Conuerted Iew but euen from Michaeas The Prophetical Iew Whose praediction of the amplitude and euer conspiâ—uitie of Christs Church and consequently of our Catholycke Church is set downe in these words In nouissimo di erum erit mons domus Domini praeparatus in vertice montium sublimis super colles fluent ad cum Populi Et properabunt gentes multae dicent Venite ascendamus ad montem Domini ad domum Dei Iacob docebit nos de vijs suis at ibimus in semitis â—ius Which Prophecy as it hath beene hitherto fully accomplished in the present Roman Church so on the other syde how vnaptly indeed how falsly it can be applyed to a Conuenticle of Christians which is confessed for many more yeres then a thousand to haue bene wholy latent and Inuisible or rather vtterly extinguished I leaue to your Candour and impartialitie to censure But before I take my leaue with you for this tyme most excellent Men I will cast my eye back vpon the Premisses in grose discussed in this Treatise Yf then it be so as is aboue manifested that the Church of God must at all tymes be resplendent and visible If she must euer enioy the administration of the Word and Sacraments by the ministery of her Doctours and Pastours without any interruption and this with such an imposed Necessity as that the being of them constituteth a Church the want of them destroyeth it Yf we all be bownd vnder payne of eternall damnation to incorporate our selfs into that Church which is beutifyed and enriched with the former spirituall endowments and to auoyde all such Societyes of Men wherein they are wanting seing only the members of Christs true Church are capable of Saluation Yf finally our Catholycke and Roman Church on the one syde by the frequent Confessions of our learned Aduersaryes besids oll other proofs thereof hath alwayes enioyed the said priuiledges of Visibility and administration of the Word and Sacraments And the Protestant Church on the other syde euen by their owne lyke acknowledgments hath bene for many Centuryes and ages wholy distitute and depryued of these spirituall graces and as I may tearme them Immunityes What stupor then and dulnes of mynd or rather what Letargious constitution of the Soule forgetfull of it owne well fare possesseth so infinit Men at this day as to deuyde themselfs from our said Catholycke Church euen in greate hostility and in lien thereof to be ranged with particular and nouelizing Conuenticles The consideration whereof most iudicious Men though I looke not to be of that weigh with you as to moue you actually to implant your selfs in our Catholicke Church yet since you are wyse learned and loth no dowbt to commit any such explorate errours as the force of Naturall Reason and your owne Consciences may freely check I am in good hope that the serious perusall of the poynts aboue disputed will at least preuayle thus far with diuers of you as that you will not be ready hereafter in your discourses so tragically to enueigh and declame against a Religion which is fortyfied which such impugnable and irrefragable proufs as our Catholycke fayth euen from our owne Aduersaryes mouths is euicted to bee But that you being Men professing Conscience Integrity and Ingenuity will beare a more fauorable respecte to the said religion And herewith I will conclude recommending you all in my daily prayers vnto him who out of his Power and Goodnes created vs all and out of his Mercy dyed for vs all to the end that by our professing of a true fayth and exercizing of a vertuâ—us lyfe he might saue vs all seing otherwise we can no more auaylably expect eternall Beatitude then the Patriarchs dying in Egypt could hope to be buried in the Laude of Promisse Laus Deo Beatae Virgini Mariae AN APPENDIX WHEREIN IS TAKEN A SHORT VIEW CONTAINING A FVLL ANSWERE OF A PAMPHLET ENTITVLED A Treatise of the Perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church in all Ages Printed anno 1624. CVRTEOVS READER Thou mayst be aduertized hereby that not long since to wit in the yeare 1624. there came out a certaine Booke entituled A Treatise of the perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church in all Ages not subscribed with any Name The reason thereof belike was in that the Authour as guilty to himselfe of his impure proceeding therein durst not iustify neyther himselfe nor this his labour Though the entituling him in the Epistle to the Reader which seemes to be written by some other person then the Authour The most Reuerend Religious and painfull Authour thereof c. doth in the iudgment of many intimate him to be no meane Man but a great mayster in Israel to wit eyther D. White or D. Featly or some other as great as eyther To this concealing of them of the Authours name who as being a Protestant might boldly and without danger subscribe his owne name to his owne Booke farre differently from vs Priests I may ad the Authours affected silence through out his whole Treatise in not touching neither glancing at the then late and fresh Conference had at London euen of this very Subiect of the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages betweene the afore mentioned D White and D. Featly on the one part and M. Fisher and M. Sweete on the other This Authour not so much
with Waldo so descending to Luthers dayes seing by this playne method the Reader might at the first sight and sensibly obserue that he hath omitted contrary to the title of his Booke eleuen hundred yeres without giuing any one instance of Protestancy for all those seuerall ages Therefore he craftily beginneth to instance in the tymes before Luther and so ryseth vpward some foure hundred yeres from this day in his pretended Examples Thus hoping that the vulgar Reader would either through not perusing the booke to the End or through want of Iudgment not so easely and instantly espye how far and no further he had proceeded in these Examples Now touching his Examples he first instanceth in Hus and Ierome of Prage who liued anno Domini 1400. that is some hundred and twenty yeres or thereabouts before Luthers Apostasy To this Example of Hus in which the Pamphleter cheifly insisteth for as for Ierome of Prage he but embraced some of Hus his errours as learning them from him I First answere that supposing Hus had broached all poynts of Protestancy yet followeth it not that Luther had receaued the said Doctryne from Hus by an vninterrupted descent of Beleife as this Authour pretendeth for it may well be that Hus his Errours were extinct in respect of any beleiuers before Luthers dayes Euen as Aerius denyed prayer for the deade and the Hereticke Manichaeus freewill as S. Austin witnesseth yet were those Heresyes vtterly extinguished for many ages till Luther reuiued them Secondly the articles which Hus mantayned different from the Roman Church were but foure as they are recorded by Fox himselfe Of which the doctrine of Communion vnder both kinds was the cheifest though according to the iudgement of Luther it is a point but of In differency In all other points Hus was Catholicke which this Authour calumniously concealeth Thirdly Hus mantayned that acknowledged Heresy on all sydes that Bishopps Princes being in mortall sinne were not to be obayed but thereby did loose all their authority Which Heresy is in like sort wholy concealed by this Pamphleter Concerning the particular prouffes of all which points euen from the Protestants Confessions I referre the Reader to the former Dialogue where Michaeas discouereth them at large as the like he doth of Wicklefe Waldo and others hereafter alledged by this Treatiser Fourthly if the Visibility of the Protestant Church may be iustifyed in Hus or in Waldo Wicklefe or in any other hereafter obtruded for a Protestant by this Pamphleter because eich of them taught two or three at the most of Protestant points then by the same reason may the Protestant Church de sayd to haue beene visible in the Arians for reiecting of Traditions for perpetrating many sacrileges agaynst the Sacraments Altars and Priests in Pelagius for teaching euery sinne to be mortall in Vigilantius for condemning all religious virginity and affirming the relicks of Saincts are not to be worshipped In the Manichees for denying of freewill And in diuers such others All branded Hereticks and registred for such by the orthodoxal Fathers of the Primatiue Church Now this Inference I would entreate the Reader to obserue with peculiar application to all the pretended examples of Protestancy alledged in this Pamphlet Fiftly if we should grant heere all that which is spoken of Hus yet it but warranteth the visibility of the Protestant Church only for the age in which Hus did liue His doctrine not being taught in ages before Now here in this discourse touching Hus I am to put the Reader in mind how this Authour spendeth many idle leaues in showing how the Nobles of Bohemia mantayned the errours of Hus And that they came into the field in great forces agaynst the Emperour in defence of the same so much sayth he was the doctrine of Hus dilated He also introduceth some one or other inueighing against the Popes manners and Cleargy of those tymes and for such their proceedings he tearmeth them Protestants And this method he mightely obserueth throughout his whole Pamphlet Idly inferring as if fayth which resids in the vnderstanding were not different from manners and conuersation which rest in the Will Or that abuses in manners will not euer be in some members of the Church Or finally that a Protestant for charging of some Ministers of his part with disorders of life or Puritans for their bitter inuerghing against the Bishops here in England were therefore to be reputed Roman Catholicks so loosly and weakly he disputeth herein But all these his Digressions in respect of the vndertaken subiect of his discourse are meerly extrauagant And in my iudgment his intention in these and other such dilations and declamatory inuectiues wherewith his Treatise is in many places hereafter fraught is cheifly but to fill vp leaues of paper that so his booke might grow to some reasonable quantity For seeing all his supposed examples of Protestancy in his Treatise might well be contayned omitting all froathy ambages and circumstances in two sheets of paper and seeing such a poore thing could not come forth alone with any credit to the cause or reputation to the writer He therefore thought it more fit to interweaue in his Pamphlet diuers long and tedious discourses how improfitable soeuer This to thinke I am the rather induced in that we may further obserue in how great and large a letter his Booke is printed and how spacious the margent of his leaues are being almost as much paper in quantity as that which is printed And all this as probably may be coniectured to the end that this his learned Tome forsooth might contayne some indifferent number of leaues See how suttle Heresy is in triffles and things of no moment The Authour hauing finished his discours of Hus his adherents followers in the next place riseth to the Waldenses who as is here alledged denyed Purgatory Transubstantiatiō blessing of Creatures First touching Transubstantion what the Pamphleter here deliuereth is a vast Vntruth as appeareth from the testimony euen of Calu 〈…〉 thus wryting Formula Confessionis c. The forme of Cōfession of the Waldenses doctrine doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation who do not confese that the Bread is become truly the body of Christ In lyke sort touching the doctrine of Purgatorie Benedictus Montargensis a Lutheran chargeth the Waldenses therewith from which two Examples we may take a scantling what credit is to be giuen to the Pamphleter in his other Assertions hereafter But grant that the Waldenses did teach some one or other poynt of Protestancy yet in regard of their far greater Number of Catholicke Articles euer beleiued by them and their many execrable Heresies condemned for such both by Catholicks and Protestants both which poynts this Pamphleter pretermitted in silence The Waldenses cannot iustly be exemplified for Protestants Now of the Catholicke Articles as also of the Heresies beleiued by the Waldenses see the Dialogue aboue in the
this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge who tearmeth all such Articles wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs as the Sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory merit of Works free will praying to saincts and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted to whom afore he had bene Mayster and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely Slips Lapses as they were beleiued by him which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition Idolatry c. And thus we may see how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons is by this Pamphleters deceate diuersly censured Leaning S. Bernard the Authour generally but with out any prouf at all wisheth his Reader to thinke that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome and did lie hid as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias for feare of Persecution But this he only saith but proueth not and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie with which it was spoken Now touching those Men who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution I refer the Reader to the former dialogue wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed That done the Pamphleter sayth that India Armenia Asia the lâ—ssar and Egypt had in former tymes Christians in them for he giueth them no other name then Christians And then he inferrs without any proofe at all or instances in the points of their Religion that they were Protestants Poore man that thus most insensibly reasoneth Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points with the present Roman Churrch Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome aboue all other Bishopps In the last place of all he much insisteth in the Greeke Church within which are included the Russes and Muscouits he thus saying thereof The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished And from whome the Russians and Muscouâ—ts had their fayth And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe We should do wrong to Almighty God c. to pull from him so many ample Churches meaning the Greeke Church the others aboue specifyed inferring from thence that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible euen in the Greeke Church Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin Sands a man of his owne Religion who plainly affirmeth that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse in praying to Saints in auâ—â—cular Confession in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead Purgatory worshipping of pictures Yea the Protestant Deuines of Magdeburg do record that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles recited by Syr Edwin Sands but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse Confirmation with Crisme Extreme Vâ—ction all the seauen Sacraments Almes for the dead freewill Monachisme vowes of Chastity the fast of Lent and other prescribed fasts that Priests may not mary after Orders taken and finally that the tradition doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept Now heere I refeâ—re to any one not blinded with preiudice whether the professours of the Greeke Church are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants And from hence we may discâ—uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant and a continuall Visâ—â—iliâ—y of Protestancy in the said Churches thus insulteth Looke to these places you Papists and Imagine that if there had beene none but these yet the words of the Scripture which in generality speake of a spouse had beene true And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished if neither We nor the Synagoâ—ue of Rome had beene extant Thus he His former examples being ended he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours the Kings of England and France And then all such persons as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings agaynst the Popes of those tymes the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings within their owne Realmes That done the Treatiser extraâ—agantly discourseth in his deâ—lamatory rayling veyne that the Pope is Antichrist But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet and prouing of his owne Churches visibility the which he obliged himselfe to performe may appeare by what is already set downe After all this for a Close of all he obiecteth for forme-sake as if his taking notize of what we can truly obiect against his wryting were a sufficient answere to it certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks agaynst his former Instances of protestancy Which Obiections of ours being set downe he shapeth no true Answere vnto them And first he thus obiecteth in our behalfe l The Papists will beginne and say that we rake together as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth such as were notorious Hereticks as Wicklefe Hus or the Waldenses c. To which after much securtility of words he finally thus answereth We do not beleiue that all those are Hereticks whom you Papists will so call or account But we reply hereto and say That not only the Catholicks but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe Hus the Waldenses as also Almaricus Peter Bruus c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours absolute Heroticks seing they were mantayned by Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church publikly teaching the contrary far differently from S. Austin S. Cyprtan and Lactantius their beleiuing certayne errours the which this Pamphleter for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth seing these Fathers taught them only as their owne probable opinions euer submitting with all Obedience their Iudgments therein to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church Ad hereto that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes do indifferently charge Wicklefe Hus Waldo and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy and with diuers absurd Heresyes The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations or equally to be reiected in them all And the rather seing they could not foretell a consideration much to be obserued or presage what
c. as also touching the Contentions betweene the Popes and the Emperours the Kings of England and France and finally spendeth diuers leaues in rayling against the Pope as Antichrist All which werisome prolixityes he vseth thereby to spine out his booke to some resonable lenght or quantity seing otherwise to the title of his booke they are mearly impertinent 8. Eightly his Monstrous Impudency is to be obserued in making S. Bernard and the Greeke Church in former tymes as also the Churches in India Armenia Asiae Minor Egipt c. to be protestants without showing any one Protestant Article that they did hould excepting the Greeke Church denying the Popes Supremacy 9. Nynthly The title of his Booke being to proue the continual Visibility of his owne Church in all ages he produceth his Examples of protestancy supposing them for the tyme to be true Examples only for the first three or foure hundred yeres before Luthers dayes and so mearly crose to the title of his booke he omitteth eleuen hundred yeres without geuing instance of any one protestant during all those Ages 10. Tenthly Touching the Compas of those few ages for which he produceth some supposed Examples his fraud and calumny is to begine from Luther vpward and not downward towards Luther thereby the better as is aboue said to conceale from a vulgar Eye the small number of those ages or Centuryes for which he endeuoreth to proue the imaginary Visibility of the protestant Church 11. Eleuently and lastly his stilling the Catholicke Articles to wit of the Reall Presence Purgatorye free will praying to Saincts and all the rest beleiued by S. Bernard and other Catholicks only Lapses and Slipps the beleife of which Articles in vs Catholicks at this present he commonly calls Idolatry Superstition c. But this alleuiation of words and speech he vseth most subtelly of S. Bernard that so notwithstanding S. Bernards different beleife yet by this Pamphleter he neuertheles may be reputed a good protestant Thus far Good Reader of his cheife affected sleightes And with this I end referring this one Consideration vnto thee That is Yf the question of the Visibility of the protestant Church through the Conference had thereof at London immediatly before the comming out of this Pamphlet and occasion of that other Toy intituled The Fisher catched in his owne Mâ—t was at that tyme much discoursed and talked of by many Men through out the land and therefore the Mantayners of this Visibility did stand more obliged by all Reading and learning possible to iustify the same being then and at all tymes so much prouoked vnto it by vs Catholickes and if neuertheles the Authour heare refuted being stiled in the Epistle of this Treatise A most reuerend and learned Man and one who hath more particularly and perspicuously traualled in this Argument then any in our English tongue And therefore he may be presumed in all lyklyhood to haue spoken in defence thereof as much as can be spoken therein Yf I say this Man cannot but for three or foure ages only and these nearest to Luthers dayes seeke to iustify the same and this by meanes of some few false defectiue and misapplyed examples and Instances accompanied with diuers frauds impostures and Collusions What other thing then from hence may be concluded but that it is impossible to make good or proue the Visibility of the Protestants Church during all the ages since Christ to Luthers dayes or indeed duâ—ing but any one â—ge thereof And consequently that the Protestant Church for want of such a necessary Visibility euer attending oâ—â— the true Church of Christ is not nor can be the true Church of Christ FINIS THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW OR THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEVV Betweene The right honorable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. M. Vice Chancelour of Oxford The Contents hereof the Argument following will show Vide mulierem ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum Apocalips 17. THE ARGVMENT OF THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS STILED THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW. MICHAEAS after his disputation ended in Oxford with D. Reynolds Ochinus and Neuserus touching the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church and giuing it out that he would instantly depart from thence Neuerthelesse lyeth secretly in Oxford and hath peculiar acquaintance with some of the choyest witts there whome he persuadeth to the Catholicke and Roman fayth The Vice-Chancelour of Oxford hearing thereof apprehendeth Michaeas conuenteth him before the right Honourable the Lord Cheife-Iustice of England before whome he stands arraigned of three Crymes The first that according to the falsely supposed Principles of the Roman Religion he laboreth to plant disloyalty in the Schollars mindes The which Michaeas absolutly denyeth and thereupon retorteth by way of recrimination the cryme of Disloyalty vpon the Protestants both for their doctrine thereof and for their practise The second offence vrged by the Vice-Chancelour is that Michaeas did write certayne short Discourses of diuers points of Catholicke Religion and diuulged them to the Schollars of his acquaintance Of which discourses the Vice-Chancelour getting a copie of Michaeas his owne hand wryting deliuereth it in the presence of Michaeas to the Lord Cheife-Iustice This Action Michaeas acknowledgeth it as true and warranteth it by force of Reason and strong example The third Cryme That Michaeas being a Roman Priest vndertaketh to reconcile some Schollars to the Church of Rome and daily celebrateth Masse All this Michaeas granteth vnto iustifying such his proceeding by deducing the antiquity of Priesthood of the power of remitting sinnes in the Sacrament of Pennance and of the Masse euen from the times of the Apostles and the Primatiue Church By reason of which occasion the present state of Priests and Catholicks in England is impart discoursed of To conclude omitting diuers other short insertions passages in the Dialogue incidently occurring the Lord Cheife-Iustice as inclining to clemency and commiseration proceedeth to an honorable and myld Censure or iudgment against Michaeas at which censure the Vice-Chancelour mightely stormeth And so Michaeas earnestly praying for the Kings health and true happynes the Dialogue endeth THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW BEING A DIALOGVE BETWEENE THE RIGHT HONORABLE THE LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE OF ENGLAND MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND M. VICE-CHANCELOVR OF OXFORD Wherein is prooued besides diuers other short insertions that the Protestants stands more chargeable with disloyalty to their Lawfull Princes then Catholicks do THE VICE-CHANCELOVR MY Lord. All duty to your Lordship I haue here brought before your Lordship a Man most turbulent in his proceedings and who of late hath much ruffled and disordered the fiâ—e and quiet state of our Vniuersity by seeking to infect the Schollars thereof with his Popish and superstitious doctrines One whom kinde and curteous entertaynment for such he hath found at our hands cannot mollify and whose demerits are of that nature as that Compassion shewed to him would prooue Cruelty to others And we
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
either the places by your inâ—ertions and additions are corrupted or that you haue violated them by diuorcing the words from their true intended Sense Which sense of their no doubt is different from that meaning and Construction which you haue imposed vpon them But to confes my ignorance I haue not at any ty 〈…〉 râ—d the former Authours And therefore I must refer this poynt for my fuller satisfaction to the iudgment of M. Vice Chancelour here present MICHAEAS I do assure your 〈◊〉 in all sincerity that the testymonyes of the former Protestaâ—ts are truly aledged without any s 〈…〉 〈…〉 ertion either of the Words or sense And hearein I appeale euen to M. Vice-Chancelour owne iudgment who if he can change me with any such willfull imposture but in any one of the passages aboue I will acknowledge my selfe guilty in all Besydes all the former Authours are long since departed out of this World and therefore my fault if any such were should be far more odious and insupportable since Christian Charity teacheth vs to treade gently vpon the graues of the deade VICE-CHANCELOVR Suppose Michaeas that we should grant that all the former Protestants did teach as you haue produced them for to speak the truth I cannot take any iust exception against your allegations and the lesse seeing I find some of our owne Brethren by you alledged and particularly D. Bancroft and D. Succlif to acknowledge with discontent their said sentences Yet seeing they were but certaine Metaphysicall and aery speculations only of Schollars men vnapt for a mes and Rebellions and not of any acting spirits Their doctrinall Comminations therefore as neuer being accompanied with any externall Acts of disloyalty are to be reputed the lesse dangerous to Princes and Magistrats And thus in regard hereof it may be truly said that the errour of those former Protestants hearein was but small though the poynt about the which they erred was great But the Case is far otherwyse with you Papists who do not only teach and warrant rebellion by your doctrine but also haue actually practized the same with greate effusion of innocent bloud to the amazement of all Christendom and irreparable dishonour of your owne Religion MICHEAS I will here speake with the Poët M. Vice Ch. mutatio nomine de te fabula narratur Since these your words do â—ustly recoyle vpon your selfe and your Religion And therefore euen to choake you irreplyably hearein I will present to your view the tragicall deplorable face of many stats and Countryes in Christendom ingendred from the former Protestants Principles In the contemplation whereof we shall find it a Mistery euer peculiar to diuers Protestant stats to cast of their loyalty and obedience that so either by one meanes or other they would either fynd right or make right to violate the bond of all souerainty as men speake of Hercules breaking Gorgons knot with whom it hath beene vsuall to grow wanton in shading of bloud for the more speedy establishment of their Gospell to the end then that these former doctrinal Theorems of Rebellion shall not become meare aery as it pleseth you M. Vice-Ch to tearme them I will truly and really incorporate them in diuers most lamentable Insurrections and outrages perpetracted by Protestant subiects against their Catholicke Princes Many of which Rebellions did receaue their first Conception and after their byrth euen from the violent incitemeÌ„ts and instigations made by diuers of the afore alledged Protestants Wryters in the mynds of the subiects against their Catholicke Leige Lords And in showing this I will first begine with England then Scotland and so I will passe to other more remote Countryes Now touching England Do wee not find that the aforenamed L. Archbishop D. Bancroft speaking of the attempts made in Q. Maryes tyme for aduancing of the Protestants Religion thus wryteth Sundry Englishmen did wryte hither meaning from Geneua sundry letters and books of this subiect That the Councellours of Q. Maries tyme Noblemen Inferiour Magistrats and rather then fayle the very People were bound before God to ouerthrowe superstition and reforme Religion whether Q Mary would or no yea Though it were by putting her to death And according herto we thus reade in the former booke of Obedience By Gods law and Mans lawe Q. Mary ought to be put to death as being a Tyrant a Monster and a cruell beast O poore and titulary soueraignty that is forced in these mens iudgments to be thus subiect to it owne subiects and to endure those opprobrious and contumelious tearmes from any one obscure Superintendent which ciuill Conuersation forbiddeth amonge Men of the meanest ranke and quality No supreme domination and rule whearewith Princes are inuested is lyke to hym from whom it selfe originally first streameth that is Absolute and independent and brooketh not the controule of any such whom God hath subiugated to it by lawfull subiection But to proceede from these former and other such elements and Principles of Treason it came to passe that one Wiltin Thomas with others conspyred to murther Q Mary for which offence he was hanged drawne and quartered that D. Crammer Archbishop of Canterbury partly for spreading seditious Books and cheifly vnder pretext of Religion for ayding the D. of Northumberland with horse and Men was sent to the Tower arraigned in the starrchamber attaynted of High Treason Finally that S. Thomas Wyat seconded with the D. of Suffoch attempted his treason against the said Q Mary only vnder the colour of erecting Protestancy But to leaue England and to come to Scotland Who is ignorant that Knox being instructed in this Art at Geneua returned into Scotland attempting to reforme Religion euen by open rebellion and force of armes and murthering the Cardinall in his bedchamber at S. Andrewes was conuented to appeare before the Queene Regent and for not appearing was proclaymed Rebell In like sort D. Bancroft thus further wryteth of Knox and his Confederats and followers They kept the field two months and tooke away to themselues the coyning irons and iustifyed the same c. They gaue the Queene the lye diuers tymes and vsed her with most despiâ—full speeches and reâ—ounced their obedience vnto her and depryued her of all further regiment by formall Act penned by Knoâ— The said D. Bancroft thus further enlargeth himselfe touching Knox and hi followers saying By the perswasion of Knox in his Sermon they did cast downe and destroy â—t S. Andrews both the houses of the Eryars and the Abbeys in that towne So dealâ— they with the Abbey of Scone the Fryars at Steâ—cling Luâ—quo and Edenburrough the Queene being fled thence for feare Thus D. Bancroft of these mens proceedings who not content in afflicting the said Queene in such rebellious a manner further extended their malice and Disloyalty in so high a degree to the last Queene of Scotland as that his deceased Maiesty her Sonne thus complayned thereof How