testimonies which also he alleageth out of many bookes both of the old and newe Testament to prooue that the Church should bee spread ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the world He answereth the places of Scriptures which they alleaged to prooue that the world at sundrie times had so fallen away from God that a verie fewe true worshippers remained and why might not they be now as those fewe He sheweth that there be innumerable testimonies to prooue that the open bad did communicate together with the good in the Sacraments and that the good were fewe in comparison of the bad so mixed with them of which after he hath cited many he commeth at the last as it were to a conclusion that al other things remooued hee would haue them shewe their Church out of the holie Scriptures and from the places which are not darke And then it followeth Quisquis ergo huic epistolae responderese praeparat ante denunciationem mihi dicat illi codices dominicos ignibus tradiderunt illi simulacris gentium sacrificauerūt illi nobis iniquissimam persecutionem fecerunt et vos eis in omnibus consensistis Breuiter enim respondeo quod saepè respondi aut falsa dicitis aut si vera sunt non ad frumenta Christi sed ad eorum paleam pertinent ista quae dicitis non inde perit ecclesia quae optimo iudicio ventilata istorum omnium separatione purgabitur That is to say Whosoeuer therefore prepareth himselfe to answere this Epistle let him before the denouncing say vnto me such deliuered the Lords bookes to the fire such sacrificed to the Idols of the Gentiles such haue persecuted vs most vniustlie and you haue consented vnto them in all things For I answer brieflie which I haue often answered either ye speake things which are false or else if they bee true that which ye speake pertaineth not to the corne of Christ but to the chaffe thereof the Church doth not perish thereby which winnowed with most perfect iudgement shall bee purged by the separation of that same chaffe He addeth Ego ipsam ecclesiā requiro vbi sit quae audiendo verba Christi faciendo aedificat super petram audiendo faciendo tolerat eos qui audiendo non faciendo aedificant super arenam Vbi sit triticum quod inter zizania crescit vsque ad messem non quid fecerint vel faciant ipsa zizania Vbi sit proxima Christi in medio filiarum malarum sicut lilium in medio spinarum non quid fecerint vel faciunt ipsae spinae Vbi sunt pisces boni qui donec ad littus perueniant tolerant pisces malos pariter irretitos non fecerint aut faciant ipsi pisces mali That is to say I seeke the Church where she is which in hearing the words of Christ and doing them doth build vpon a rocke and which hearing and doing doth tolerate those which hearing and not dooing doo build vppon the sand Where that wheate is which groweth vp among the tares vntill the haruest come not what the tares haue done or what they doo Where that spouse of Christ is in the middest of the euill daughters as the lillie among the thornes not what the thornes haue done or what they doo Where the good fishes be which vntill they come vnto the shore doo tolerate the euill fishes held in the same nette together not what the euill fishes haue done or what they doo Thus haue I laide open that the Church in olde time was full of open wicked men both of ministers and people That the Donatists vnder the colour of zeale and seueritie against sinne did separate themselues affirming that all were polluted and fallen from the couenant which did communicate in the worship of god and Sacraments with such notorious euill men All men may see by that which I haue noted that the Donatists did maintaine this their opinion with the same Scriptures and argumēts that the Brownists doe maintaine it withall nowe And receiued the same answers to confute them which we make nowe to confute the Brownists This was the maine point of Donatisme and as it were the pith substance therof it is one of the foure chiefe pillers of Brownisme Yea but now the Brownists doe separate themselues from a worship which is Idolatrous full of blasphemies and abhominations The Donatists did rend themselues from an holy and true worship Indeede where the worship is Idolatrous and blasphemous a man is to separate himselfe But there are many and great corruptions before it come to that for it is the true worship of God where the foundation is layd and standeth sure If there be timber Hay and stubble built vpon the foundation the fault is great such things are not to bee approued But yet there is Gods true worship And now to come to the verie poynt of the matter I doe affirme wil stand to iustifie that there were greater corruptions in the worship of God euen in those Churches from which the Donatists did seperate themselues than be at this day in the worship of the Church of England So that if Brownisme be any thing to be excused in that the Donatisme may as iustly therein be defended For if wee consider matters which concerne doctrine what can any man shew so corrupt in this our Church as in the publike worship to pray for the soules of the dead and to offer oblations for the dead This corruption was generall in the Church then yea long before the dayes of Augustine as it appeareth in Cyprian and by Tertullian which was before him and nerer to the time of the Apostles who in his booke De Monogamia reasoning against second mariage for hee was fallen into that error woulde perswade any woman that had buried her husband not to marie againe because he being seperated from her in peace not diuorced she was to pray for his soule and yearely to offer oblation for him thus he writeth Et pro anima eius oret refrigerium interim ad postulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius That is And let her pray for his soule and craue refreshing for him nowe in the meane time and his felowship in the first resurrection and let her offer yearely vpon the day of his departure It will bee said by some ignorant man that this was but the minde and practise of some few which were corrupt and superstitious I answere it was the practise of the Church in generall and the corruption so auncient that the same Tertullian in his booke De corona militis speaking of it certain other things saith they were obserued by tradition from the Apostles they were obserued so generally in the Churches and no scripture to warrant them These bee his wordes Oblationes pro defunctis annua die facimus Wee make oblations for the dead in the yeerely day The doctrine of Purgatory
of prayer is conuenient and needefull for edification there it is commanded Now let the reader obserue againe your words which are that al our ministers must leaue reading their stincted praiers vpon the booke or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that so praye with them Master Greenewood complaineth of great iniury wheÌ„ I gather from his words that he condemneth all Churches because hee knoweth that is a matter sufficient alone to bewray the wickednes of Brownisme Now if all our Ministers which pray vpon the booke and the people that pray with them stand vnder the wrath of God for this thing then cannot they be the Church of God for GOD loueth his Church and all Churches haue prescript formes of prayer which their Ministers vse therfore they all stand vnder Gods wrath But they doo it ignorantlie will he say and so say I did all our Churches vntill his papers came abroad and manie haue not as yet seene them and some that haue seene them are not perswaded and so are ignorant still The next thing ye deale with is the Argument which I drawe from the singing Psalmes vpon the booke it is so cleere they did sing them vpon the booke that the Brownist himselfe cannot denie it It is also most manifest they did sing them as hee also now confesseth to God for so are we commaunded in many places sing praises to God Then further he that offereth vp praise to God reading it cannot be gainsaide but that he offereth vp a spirituall sacrifice to God reading Yea praise is one parte of prayer and it is as hard a thing to speake praises to God vpon the booke as to craue by petitions vpon the booke and as spirituall a worke and I may say a more high seruice where is then that grosse fantasie of Master Greenewood which because reading is one thing and speaking to God is another saith a man cannot both read and speake to God at once He cannot say O my God when he readeth but O my booke why art thou so euill printed I argue if the people of God in olde time did both reade the Psalmes vpon the booke and speake vnto the Lord at the same instant how should it not now bee both possible and lawfull for to speake vnto God in praiers while one readeth Hée saieth I denie your Argument I say that is not sufficient to denie the Argument let vs therefore sée the reasons of the deniall Admitte that singing were a part of praier sayeth he yet dooth it not follow that all praier may bee read vpon the booke we must take this vpon your bare word at least such as will may beléeue yée I stand to affirme that one part of praier is as spirituall a worke as another thereupon I also affirme that if one part may bee read vppon the booke and no turning the worke of the spirite into an Idoll no stâ—nting the spirite no quenching the spirit no Idolatrie no hindrance but that hee which readeth may speake vnto God it may be so in any other part And let vs see what hee will bee able to disprooue this withall But hee saieth I speake like an ignorant man to say that singing is praier because they be two diuers actions and exercises of our faith The one neuer read for the other nor saide to be a parte of the other throughout the Scriptures but are plainelie distinguished As I will praye with the Spirite I will pray with vnderstanding I will sing with the spirit I will sing with vnderstanding saith Saint Paul I answer you could no where more vntimelie accuse mee of ignorance then where your owne speech in this and that which followeth next is patched vp with errors almost as thick as the patches vpon a beggars cloake And for answere I say first that Saint Paul dooth distinguish them there is great reason not onelie because the verie singing it selfe is not praier no more then reading or speaking but also that there bee manie praiers which are not song and manie Psalmes and songs which are no formes of praier nor the spéech directed to God a prayer that is no psalme is neuer called a psalme nor any reason why it should but a Psalme that is a praier is called both a Psalme and a praier The Psalme 86. is called Tephillah a praier and consisteth of sundrie petitions The Psalme 90. is so called being the praier of Moses Psalme 102. is called Tephillah leaaui the praier for the poore when hee is in perplexitie and powreth foorth his meditatioÌ„ before the Lord. The people praying for Christs Kingdome did vse to say Hosanna Blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord. Psal 118. The Psalme 50. and 119. with many other conta ne petitions almost in euery verse which if a man did pray or desire them earnestly singing it was no Idolatrie singing I graunt is not called praier but men might sing Psalmes to God and were commanded which contained praises and petitions but they were giuen to the Church to be song or read in y e forme of praier saith he but denieth y t this was to be done praying He not only confesseth they were to sing theÌ„ vnto God but also saith the Lord keep me froÌ„ such an error as to denie that yet eueÌ„ in this coÌ„fession falleth into as grose a matter for what can bee more absurd than that a man should vtter and speake euen vnto God that which is a prayer and yet might not pray as when out of the Psalm 118. praying for the kingdome of Christ they cried Hosanna blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord or when for some speciall benefite the whole Church was to sing prayse to God and had a prescript forme deliuered vnto them were they to mocke with God and not to speak prayses vnto him indeede from the heart and with chearefulnes or did God commaund them to doe two things which cannot bee done at once or wil any deny that many in singing though the singing it selfe be not praying doe giue hearty thankes to God where thanksgiuing is expressed and craue earnestly when they vtter petitions Master Greenewood doth grieuously complaine of me for doing him foule wrong in saying he denieth that the Psalmes are to be sung to God And what other thing in effect doth he vtter here when hee saith they were not to vtter the wordes of a Psalme to God praying But I willset downe his first words which are these The same may be sayde for the hundreth and second Psalme for although some haue taken it as a prayer of the Prophet when he was in affliction yet may I graunt with you to be taken in the future tense and auoyd that superstition you would fall into for if it had beene giuen vnto the Church to haue beene read as a prayer vnto God it should haue beene saide O Lord heare our prayer and let our crie come vnto thee And therefore it is manifest that
I haue in this point by denying that there bee swarued from the sacred word of God from the iudgement of the holie Churches and writings of the most worthy noble instruments which God hath at all times giuen to be the guides and lights in the same And if it can be prooued that I haue gone awrie from the trueth but an heire breadth I will reuoke it for trueth is to bee bowed vnto and reuerenced wheresoeuer shee sheweth her sweete face of all that looke to haue any part in her Marke also their writings as they shall come foorth and see wherein they can conuince me of any error falsehood or corruption touching this one forenamed question vnto which they are to be held seeing we set all other controuersies aside Then touching the second sorte which finde fault about handling the matter as if that I should mitigate or make lighter the faults of our Churches at least in this that I do not reprehend them To this I answer first that vnles it can bee shewed that our Church is guilty in some of those crimes which I stand to clere it in I see no reason why I shoulde bee charged to make things lighter which I medle not withall further than in shewing that they be not fundamentall Secondlie I intreate al men to consider that I stand to defend a Church and not the infirmities or offences of a Church in which as there be many bad mēbers so the best are traile If a godlie man because of some apparant sinnes should be accused to be an Atheist an infidell a traitor or a most vile and filthie wretch might not he clere himselfe of such horrible crimes but it must be saide he dooth mittigate his owne infirmities or make them lighter Thirdlie I doo request them to consider the state of our people how speedelie verie manie are carried into great euils and dangers though not all in the same degree I am of this minde that where any thing is amisse in Gods Church it is the part and duetie of the faithfull Ministers of Christ all dutifull reuerence and submission being obserued towards Magistrates publique authoritie peaciblie to seeke redresse of the same with godlie and charitable reprehension I doo also holde that euery christian man is wiselie and soberly with the like deuties of reuerence submission and peaceable behauiour obserued to seeke to haue his conscience informed in all matters which may any way concerne himselfe But we see how farre some haue swarued and doo swarue from this For the rule of charitie and christian dueties being neglected the vttet disgrace and contempt of men is sought and that on either part The warre is made as deadlie as if the grounds of christianitie were in question while some passing the bounds of modestie others doo replie against them after the same manner Our Sauiour saith Satan dooth not cast foorth Satan and shall we thinke then that sinne shall cast foorth sinne Such as condemne and abhorre Schisme and errors and inordinate dealing must bee burthened and reproached with the same notwithstanding which is iniurious And what is in the mouthes of many against this but that the Papists then may as well be excused which condemne Master Luther and other as the fathers of heretiks because swarmes of Anabaptists did followe immediatelie vpon their preaching the Gospel When shall we then here come to an end There wil bee contention in the Church and humaine frailtie hath shewed it selfe this way euen among the holie teachers of old to the sharp reprehension and in manner reproaching one of another as Master Beza noteth in the Epistle of his Booke against Erastus but godlie men when they haue somewhat gone awrie seek to amend their fault by subduing their passions Now looke also vpon the people where wee may see verie many who not regarding the chiefe christian vertues godlie dueties as namelie to be meek to be patient to be lowlie to be full of loue and mercie to deale vprightlie and iustly to guide their families in the feare of God with wholsome instructions and to stand fast in the calling in which God hath set them giue thēselues wholy to this euen as if it were the summe and pith of religion namelie to argue and talke continuallie against matters in the Church against Bishops and Ministers and one against another on both sides Some are proceeded to this that they will come to the assemblies to heare the Sermons and praiers of the Preacher but not to the praiers of the booke which I take to be a more grieuous sinne than manie doo suppose But yet this is not the worst for sundrie are gone further and fallen into a damuable Schisme and the same so much the more feareful dangerous in that manie do not see the foulenes of it but rather holde them as godlie Christians and but a little ouershot in some matters The sore is grieuous and the wound is deepe as I haue small ioy to behold it so haue I lesse desire to make it deeper wishing from my heart that it might rather be cured Such as bee of another minde either in this or in any thing that I haue writtē I craue of them that they wil giue me leaue according to the doctrine and rule of the Apostle fraterne dissentire to dissent in some thing without the breach and hindrance of brotherly loue For as I do greatlie esteeme that rule of S. Paul let as manie as be perfect be thus minded if any be otherwise minded God will reueale it But so farre as we are come let vs proceed by one rule to be like affectioned Phil. 3. so do I much lament to see it almost vtterly neglected and the breach of loue concord as violent among many for euery matter wherein they dissent as if some ground of christianity were in question between them I do not meane that a man ought to consent vnto any error or vnto any euill committed by others or to neglect the instructing and admonishing as his place and calling dooth require But I had rather as one saith answer to God if I must giue account for mercie rather than for rigour and seueritie I knowe there be faults in extremities on both sides as on the one side vnder a perswasion of loue a man may be ouer fauorable in esteeming and bearing as brethren such as hold the foundations of the faith and yet erre in some things and haue great faultes so on the other side vnder a perswasion of zeale against all falsehood and wickednes they may fall into an vncharitable rigour as very many doo The nature of man is more prone to this latter and the fall is more grieuous than in that former few are carried with aboundance of godly loue to offend in ouer fauorable iudging their brethren and because the elect of God haue great infirmities the Scripture doth not warrant men to be rigorous in condemning if a man holding the hatred zeale
are the grosser if we may reason from that which they holde for if this were true which the Brownists affirme most stiffelie to bee true as the Donatists did before them that where an open wicked man dooth administer the Sacraments they be no Sacraments at all And if this also were as true which they both haue taken vpon them to iustifie the Donatists of olde saying they had no true Sacraments in the Churches and the Brownists that we haue none now It must needes be graunted that the Donatists did the better of both in baptising those which were not before baptized for he that is not baptized ought to be baptized And as no vncircumcised might eate of the Passeouer but was to be cut off from the people of GOD so no vnbaptized is to eate at the table of the Lord. How grosse are the Brownists which take it as a thing vndoubted that we haue no Sacraments and must needes thereupon be assured that they themselues were neuer baptized and so can be but as an heape of vncircumcised and yet seeke not to haue the Sacrament I would haue them answer this question whether a man that knoweth he was neuer baptized can be saued if he seeke not to bee baptized when hee may come by it Let no man imagine that I speake this as though the Brownists should doo well in rebaptizing for their former ground is false wicked and hereticall when they say it is no Sacrament that hath been administred by open offenders and that we haue no Sacraments But if that were true which they hold they should doo much better I will not say to rebaptize but to baptize such as were not before baptized Now where it is generallie obiected that the Donatists perhaps held diuers things which the Brownists doo not I answere that the Donatists indeede held somewhat which the Brownists doo not and the Brownists hold something which they did not For some of the Donatists did cast themselues downe from high places and into the fire accounting them holie Martyres that so died and others defended their doing For thus saith Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop in his Epistle An ista persecutio est quae tot milliq innocentum martyrum arctauit ad mortem Christiani enim secundum euangelium spiritu prompti sed carne infirmi à sacrilega contaminatione caminorum reperto compendio suas animas rapuerunt imitati presbyteri Raziae in Machabaeorum libris exemplum nec frustra timentes quisquis enim eorum manus inciderit non euasit sed quantum velint faciant quod certum est dei esse non possunt qui faciunt contra Deum Whether is that a persecution saith he which hath pent vp in a straight so many thousands of innocent martyres euen vnto death For Christians according to the Gospell being readie in spirit but weake in the flesh finding out a compendious way of their chimneyes haue deliuered their soules from the sacrilegious pollution imitating the example of olde Razia in the bookes of the Machabees not fearing without cause for whosoeuer falleth into their hands doth not escape but let them doo as much as they will that which is certaine they cannot be of God which doo against God booke 2. against Gaudent Chapt. 20. Augustine sheweth that Gaudentius meaning was not that they burnt themselues in their chimneys for feare of persecution vnto death for the ciuill Magistrate did not so persecute them hauing made a lawe against them for banishment but not for death as Augustine sheweth book 2. against Gaudentius chap. 11. Mitiora in vos constituit Imperator propter mansuetudinem Christianam exilium vobis voluit inferre non mortem The Emperour hath decreed more gentle thinges against yee through Christian mildnes he would lay banishment vppon ye and not death But his meaning is that such as fell into their hands were drawne to ioyne with them in worship which he calleth the sacriligious defilement And therfore doth abuse that place of the Gospell to colour such horrible murthering of themselues the spirit is readie but the flesh is weake for fearing least through weakenes they should yéeld to ioyne with the Churches they rather chose to kill themselues This the Brownists doo not but they condemne read prayer or praying after any prescript forme of words which the Donatists did not as may bee gathered by these words of Petilian Si pâ—ecem domino facitis aut funditis orationem nihil vobis penitus prodest Vestras enim debiles preces cruenta vestra conscientia vacuat quia dominus deus puram magis conscientiam quam preces exaudit domino Christe dicente non omnis qui dicit mihi domine domine intrabit in regnum coelorum sed is qui facit voluntatem patris mei qui est in coelis Voluntas dei vtique bona est nam ideo in sacra oratione sic petimus fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo in terra If ye make prayer to the Lord saith the Donatist or powre foorth supplication it doth profite ye nothing at al for your bloudie conscience doth make your weake prayers of none effect because the Lord God doth rather heare a pure conscience than prayers the Lord Iesus saying that not euerie one that saith vnto me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heauen but he that doth the will of my father which is in heauen The will of God is good for therefore in the holie prayer we pray thus thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen Thus we see that the Donatist denying that any praied but they sheweth with all that praying they vsed the Lords prayer But what doo I stand to seeke differences betwéen them which can hardlie be found whereas indeede whole bookes doo set foorth at large their agreement I will therefore proceede further to declare in particulars touching the power of Christian Princes in reforming the Church in establishing religion and in punishing heretickes schismatickes and disturbers and in compelling their subiects to the obedience of the trueth or to imbrace the true worship how iniuriouslie Browne hath dealt in his booke and the Brownists that haue written since I haue layd open in my former booke let their sayings be throughlie perused and now shall ye seee a little whether they be not the verie naturall children of the Donatists in this poynt also Thus writeth Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop Per opificem rerum omnium dominum Christum omnipotens deus frabricatum hominem vt deo similem libero demisit arbitrio Scriptum est enim fecit deus hominem dimisit eum in manu arbitrij sui Quid mihi nunc humano imperio eripitur quod largitus est deus Aduerte vir summe quanta in deum sacrilegia perpetrentur vt quod ille tribuit auferat humana praesumptio pro deo se inaniter iactet magna iniuria dei si ab hominibus defendatur Quid de deo aestimat qui eum violentia
Greenwood answere whether the voice of an other that prayeth whether fasting listing vp the eyes and hands which hee mentioned or whether prosirating the bodie and kneeling be prayer it selfe or outward meanes to make the prayer more feruent Euerie simple man will laugh at him if he say they be prayer it selfe whereupon hee must bee forced to confesse they bee but outward helpes and meanes Then aske master Greenwood againe whether a man be to fast to kneele downe to prostrate his bodie to lifte vp his eyes and hands onely before the action of prayer or in praying If he answere what a question is that what foole will say before those things are to be done in the very instant and action of prayer Then all men may sée that master Greenwood hath brought this I will not say from an idle braine for I should not say true but from an vnsound braine that he may confirme by many testimonies of scripture that the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities in the present action of prayer that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gayn-say or resist Yee sée the spirit of trueth can resist it and proue that not onely before prayer but euen in the very action of prayer outward helps and meanes especially for the ignorant and dull are needfull and good and therefore the Brownists spirit is a false spirit which saith The scripture teacheth euery where that in praying the spirite onely helpeth our infirmities no other helps mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier In the next place where hee had said A troubled heart is the pen of a readie writer therfore needeth not a booke I sayd here can bee no good argument without an absolute perfection in knowledge cheerefulnes direction memorie and vtterance and that many are so perplexed in their troubles of heart that they cannot pray which through helpe of outward meanes doe powre foorth tears and supplications He will not allow this for any answere but doth distinguish of troubled mindes The troubled minde he speaketh of which is the pen of a readie writer is when the minde is presently moued with the sight of some sin or vrged by other occasion a broken spirite a broken and contrite heart Psal 51. and not the minde which in dispaire or doubt is perplexed Then I answere that he must allow these latter the helpes and outward meanes that they may be rid of their doubt and perplexitie Moreouer there is no man so perfect in faith but he hath great remnants in him of dispaire and doubting Why else did Dauid crie out Correct me not in thy wrath my bones are troubled Psal 6. Cast me not out from thy face Psal 51 While I kept silence my bones did weare away my moysture was turned into the drought in Summer psal 32. Hath God forgottē to be merciful hath he shut vp his compassiōs in wrath psal 77. Whereupon it doth follow that there is no man but may be fore troubled and perplexed with doubts when the hand of God is heauie vpon him and the sight of his sinnes doth terrifie him It is not the glorie of faith to bee where there are us doubts of dispaire or no perplexities but to get the victorie ouer them when they do assaile it Therfore the ignoranter sorte in perplexitie need outward helps The next part of mine answere that such as be troubled and perplexed and cannot pray are holpen by a booke and by other meanes hee doth allow and agree vnto So that wee make reading one thing and praying another Who doubteth that they be two things did not I set downe at the first that the bodely action of reading is not the worship of God Then master Greenwood hath his desire seeing as he saith wee cannot do both at once he that prayeth speaketh to God My God why doest thou hide thy face from me But the Priest may say My booke whie art thou so euill printed For when they reade the heart cannot reason and talke with God If the matter written in the booke bee a speach directed vnto God as In thee O Lord haue I put my trust let me neuer be confoūded let master Greenewood or all the Brownists in the world bring anie coulour of reason to prooue that a man cannot at the same instant both vtter it with his mouth in reading and pray it with his heart Master Greenwood must denie this againe For alas what stuffe is this or els how did they sing psalms to GOD and reade them vpon the booke how can a man heare and pray both at one instant Then in the next where he saith I did but assume the question in affirming that a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. his argument being thus That none worship God but they which from the inward faith of the heart bring foorth true inuocation This doo not they that reade vpon the booke while they pray I sayd he bringeth nothing to prooue the assumption but that which is friuolous For that it is sayd wee would haue men instead of powring foorth their hearts to helpe themselues vpon a booke I answere that we wish men to vse the helpe of a booke that they may the better powre foorth their hearts to GOD beeing such as are not otherwise throughly able And that we would haue men to fetch the cause of their sighing and sorrowing from another mans writing euen in the time of their begging at Gods hand I answered how fondlie doo ye make that to bee the cause which doth but manifest the cause For that which we reade or heare doth but shewe vnto vs the miserie which is within and how it shall bee cured Now let the reader obserue how simple shifts he findeth here The first is the difference betweene reading and praying the one beeing a powring foorth of supplications the other a receiuing into the soule such things as wee reade I pray ye tell me but this when one heareth a prayer pronounced by another with whom he praieth doth not his hearing receiue it into his soule and at the very same instant also he doth powre it foorth as a praier to GOD Are not the receiuing in and the powring foorth done both at once How will he auoid the follie that I charged him withall when receiuing in and powring foorth goe together at the same instant But it is beyond all the rest that he saith I graunt the whole question by granting that reading the prayers is not the prayer but an helpe Is it all one to aske whether a man may be holpen to prayer by reading and whether the reading it selfe be praier Hereupon hee also inferreth that all our assemblies haue had none other inuocation of Gods name but an helpe to teach them to power foorth their hearts Then belike it followeth that wheresoeuer the helpe is there is or there can be no more because such as read vpon a booke when they pray haue a good helpe to further
them therefore they doo not pray Because I saide it is an helpe to such as bee not otherwise throughlie able I must confesse that our whole Ministerie is vnable a reason worthie a Brownist There be other causes whie all Churches vse prescript forme yea whereas all Ministers be able to pray without a booke Where I saide yee speake fondlie to call that the cause which dooth but manifest the cause yee replie that I haue forgotten mine atts because there be mo causes than one there be instrumentall causes I graunt there be moe causes than one And it is certaine that the efficient cause is manifolde if you meane by fetching the cause of their sorrowing from the booke in the time of their begging at Gods hand the efficient cause instrumentall I would haue yee but answer whether the instrumental cause cannot goe with the action but the action is ouerthrowne or disgraced I would also demaund whether it followe which yee collect there is an instrumentall cause which is an helpe therefore there is nothing else Are these things other than trifles I saide yee did answere nothing to that saying of our Sauiour When ye pray say our Father which art in Heauen c. Luke 11. Yee seeme that yee will not answer vnles I conclude from this place by Syllogisme but yet afterward yee doâ— And indeede what needeth a Syllogisme where the words are of themselues sufficient without anie further consequence or collection If our Sauiour commaund to say those words praying then is it most cleere that to vse a prescript forme of words in praying is not idolatrie nor a thing most detestable But yee say yee manifested in your first writing that our Sauiour did not commaund to vse those words when wee pray but to pray according to that forme Saint Matthew say you and Saint Luke keep not the same words nor that number of words hee saide not reade these words or say thâ—se words by roate when ye pray These reasons I haue slilie passed ouer as you accuse me What reasons If it be a reason there is but one for Christs speech is plaine when yee pray say thus therefore we may vse those words But must wee vse them of necessitie and neuer none other Not so but wee may vse and it is necessarie for vs to vse particulars which are conteined in those generals which are the ground and direction of all prayers Your one reason or that which hath shew of reason is in this that Saint Luke dooth omitte for thine is the Kingdome c. And that in the fourth and fift petitions they expresse the same matter with some difference of words As though the question were about such a precisenes in words that wee might not expresse the same petition in another phrase but it ceaseth to be the same Now where I conclude that it is therefore lawfull to vse a prescript forme of prayer which is framed according to the Scriptures in the assemblies To this yee replie that because no mans writings are without error it is pernicious and blasphemous doctrine which I collect This yee affirme stoutlie and for proofe bring nothing but those stale cauills which I haue sundrie times answered and now yee will answer to the two places alleaged Numb 6. and Luke 11. The priestes yee say were not commanded to vse those verie words of the blessing when they blessed the people the reason yee bring is from the Hebrew words which are as you say Coh teborcu thus shall yee blesse Where the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude as we say after this manner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This word Coh is vsed throughout the Bible in this manner in all the prophets when they say thus saith the Lord. To this I answer first let all men of anie meane learning in the Hebrew bee witnes how vnfit Master Greenewood is to reason from that tongue when hee can not so much as reade two words of it aright For he saieth Coh teborcu and it is Coh tebaracu Then for the matter it selfe this learned Hebrucian saith that Coh being an aduerb of similitude as we say after the same manner it cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions Where ignorance boldnes are met together what childreÌ„ they bring foorth We must beleeue that the Lord when he saith thus shalt thou blesse and prescribeth the words willeth the Priests not to speake the same words but the like And when our Sauiour saith When ye pray say thus Our father c. It is as much as if he should say in any wise say not these wordes at any time but the like For thus is not the same but the like God sayd to Moses I will send thee to Pharao that thou maiest bring the children of Israel out of Egypt Moses draweth backe saying when I shall come to the children of Israel and shall say vnto them the God of your fathers hath sent me vnto ye If they shall say vnto me what is his name what shall I say vnto them The Lord sayd Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel Eheie hath sent me vnto ye Moreouer God sayd to Moses Thus shalt thou say vnto them The God of your fathers the God of Abraham the God of Isaak the God of Iaacob hath sent me vnto ye Exod. 3. vers 13 14 15. Now according to Master Greenwoods exposition of Coh Moses is not commanded to say those words but the like If they should demaund what is his name that hath sent thee he may not say Eheie hath sent me because God sayd Coh that is thus which is not the same words but the like He might not say the God of Abraham the God of Isaak the God of Iaacob hath sent me vnto ye which GOD saith is his name and memoriall for euer because God sayd Coh that is thus shalt thou say but hee must say the like words He saith further that Coh is so vsed in all the Prophets when it is sayd thus saith the Lord. That is GOD hath not spoken these very words which wee bring might the Prophets say but the like It is a like thing that Master Greenwood or some other Hebrucian among the Brownists hath read ouer al the Prophets in the Hebrew tongue to finde how Coh is euerie where vsed when he could not reade two words right And now what shall we say of the Scriptures the words if wee shall beléeue the Brownists are not Gods words but the words of the Prophets Is this wholesome doctrine Did the Prophets bring any one word which GOD did not put into their mouth I pray ye Master Greenwood or any other Brownist tell me did not God speake in the Prophets all the words that they vttered euen at the verie instant when they say thus saith the Lord How can it then so wickedly be sayd they were not the very same words which God spake but