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A10909 An answere vnto a wicked & infamous libel made by Christopher Vitel, one of the chiefe English elders of the pretended Family of Loue maintaining their doctrine, & carpingly answeringe to certaine pointes of a boke called the displaing of the Fam. Aunswered by I. Rogers. Rogers, John, fl. 1560-1580.; Vitell, Christopher, fl. 1555-1579. 1579 (1579) STC 21180; ESTC S116065 74,007 215

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now he beginneth to be knowen and by the great credit and admiration you haue him in the more detestable will he be reputed as a seducer of such men as cannot content themselues wi●h such trueth as the scriptures containe but must haue a Prophét raysed vp out of Flaūders a banished man and one that dare not shew his face in any countrey openly and you had rather imbrace his noueltyes then the wholsome doctrine conteyned in the olde and new testament Vitell. NOw concerning his bookes they be of such Aucthoritye as he affirmeth them but where as you say that he sayth all is false and lyes whatsoeuer is taught c. marke wel what he writeth and adde nothing thereto and it shall be found true what he writeth more where as you say he commendeth the Pope and Cardenalls with the Masse and other ceremonyes there is none commended but in their right order if you marke the matter well Answere HIs bookes I affirmed that they were in cr●dite amongest the familye of equall au●horitye with the scriptures and that they were written with the same spirite to this you aūswere that they are of such aucthoritye as he hath affirmed therefor● note well what you say for neuer any since the Apostles tunes had so impudent a face as openly to publish such a detestable lye if this come not from the spirite of pride I know no proud bosting spirites all the Fathers in the primitiue Church euer reuerenced the holy scripture and submitted all their bookes thereunto Austen desired not to be credited or beleued but as his workes might agree with the holy scriptures all men in generall haue euer acknowledged themselues in their writinges to be subiect to error onely the scripture to be without blemish but this man will haue HN. and his bookes of equall aucthoritye with the scriptures written with the same spirite thus doe you runne from one impietye to an other and in the highest degree of blasphemye But I pray you looke vpon the matter better before you say he is a prophet now his bookes are of equal aucthoritye with the scripture whether will you lift vp your HN. aboue all condition of fraile man the higher he is exalted the more greuous will be his fall without repentaunce it is Luciferian pride thus to attribute vnto mortall man but you make HN to be a name of office and not of a creature such misteryes requireth falced where trueth and simplicitye imbraceth playne dealing Now you say that HN. doth auouch all to be false whatsoeuer is taught by any other therefore heare his owne wordes and then discerne and sée God his trueth and his godly and heauenly workes are vnknowen vnto all fleshe and vnto all fleshly and earthly men but it is geuen to the children of the kingdome the comminaltye of the Loue to vnderstand the secret misteryes thereof You say it will be found true what he writeth If none but the comminaltye or Familye of Loue doe vnderstād the scripture then it was not rightly vnderstode before there was any mention of your Familye Now for commendatiō of the Pope Cardinals and Masse he sayth hee commendeth none bu● in his right order this speach is ambig●us in his right order For simply I thinke none of them haue any shaddow of right order neither is their callinges nor doctrine grounded vpon either right or good order Your Author belyke alloweth the Masse or els he would not haue taken such paynes as to explicat euery ceremonye therein in his booke called A declaratiō of the Masse but thus with subtiltye of speach you would faine say somewhat to defend your Author be his sayinges neuer so monstrous Vitell. FOr in that booke named a ioyfull message of the kingdome of God Christ though ye de●idingly call it his gospell is declared that ●Papa signifieth an olde Father in the holy vnde●standing Now althogh he be not indued with the holy vnderstāding yet is the name not the worse in it selfe For the Lord hath ordeined gouernours spirituall and temporall and they represent the maiestye of God although now certayne gouernours gouerne not according to the rule of righteousnes yet is not therefore the name euertheles●e of reputation because it is an ordenance of God therefore let vs despise no name that belongeth to gouernours neither yet also any gouernour nor any man els for we haue all sinned haue neede of the grace or mercy of the Lord. Answere THe booke in lattin is called Euāgelium Regn● gospell of the kingdome but this man is the translator thereof and hath qualified it calling it a ioyfull message of the kingdome the title is arrogant and presumptuous the doctrine therein worse as will appere in print ere it be long the pope hath found among man● enemies one frēd although his doctrine is spokē against euery where yet this mā would gladly képe and retayne his bare name belonging to a gouernour in office we cōdeme not the name his doctrine not agr●●ing with the word is by the same word condemned so is yours For significations of names ▪ w●e will not contend a part of your deuinity lyeth therein neither do wee despise any name but is euell doctrine be shadowed or vnder any name cloked then wee inuey agaynst the doctrine vsing the name as whē inuectiues are made agaynst the Pope or HN. it is not ment of the persons but of the doctrine And surely the Pope did neuer exercise so great a Popedome in the West Church as your HN. a new Pope doth among you of his Familye and as the papistes which tooth and nayle seeke to maintayne euery absurd and senceles part of the popes doctrine with all their power witte and skill Euē so do ye of his Family maintayne your N● and whatsoeuer vnsauery doctrine he teacheth it ma● not be discredited nor he cannot therein erre or misse the right in such reputation haue you placed mortall man. You say we all haue sinned haue need of y grace or mercy of the Lord y all haue sinned you truely confes but that all doe dayely sinne you cannot beleue especially you the ●●ders of the holy vnderstandin● but in humilitye of spirite you and wee ought to cōfesse not onely that we haue sinned but dayely and hourely do sinne and haue neede not onely of his grace but his mercy also although you speake of grace or mercy but wee craue his grace and mercy his grace to guide vs and his mercy to deliuer vs. Vitell. MOreou●r you are greatly offended because hee sayeth that none shold take i● hād to teach or preach but the illuminate elders whi●h ar● Godded with God or inco●po●at●d to God and with whom also God in one being and power of his spirite is hominisied or become man And those you call proud speaches and because ●N vseth them ye despise him althoughe they be no strange words or speches in th● dut●h language ▪ therfore in so doing you despi●e the