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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	old_a	prophet_n	testament_n	5,085	5	8.1969	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A81734	The Quakers folly made manifest to all men: or a true relation of what passed in three disputations at Sandwich, April, 12, 13, 19, 1659. between three Quakers, and a minister, viz. Mr. Samuel Fisher, George Whithead, Richard Hubberthorn, and Thomas Danson wherein many popish tenents were by them maintained, and by him refuted. Occasioned by an imperfect and (in many things) false relation of the said disputations, published by R. Hubberthorn, one of the three Quakers, which said relation is also censur'd and amended. Together with a brief narrative of some remarkable passages. / By Tho. Danson, late fellow of Magd. Coll. Oxon, and now minister of the Gospel at Sandwich in Kent.	Danson, Thomas, d. 1694.	1659 (1659)	Wing D215; Thomason E2255_3; ESTC R34492	40,882	71

Scripture is not our Rule if there was a rule before the Scripture was written then that is not our rule but there was a rule before the Scripture Therefore T. D. Your Argument concludes nothing against us for we assert the matter contained in the Scripture is a standing Rule your argument proves but that there was a rule before this writing we grant that God reveal'd himself by visions dreams c. yet it was the same matter Since the Gospel preached to Adam there have not been any increase of truths quoad essentiam sed tantum quoad explicationem as the Learned speak of the Articles of our Faith The manner of conveyance is different then and now but the matter or doctrines conveyed still the same All this while you go about to delude the simple as if you denied only this way of writing to have always been the onely way of conveyance and you magnifie the Spirit that with more security you may throw down the Letter of the Scripture And if you would speak out plainly as some of your friends as you call them do that which you call the Spirit would be found to be the dictates of your own Conscience blind and corrupt as they are the Lord knows and you are no further bound to obey the Letter of the Scripture than you are willing to obey it Mr. F. I am sure your Scripture is not the Word of God for that is within but your Scripture is without This I prove out of R●m 10.8 The Word is nigh thee even in thy heart T. D. You read not all 't is in thy mouth too so that 't is without as well as within Mr. F. This is meant of the Light which is in eve●y mans Conscience 'T is a word which every man ha●h heard v. 18. But I say have they not heard yes verily their sound went into all the earth T. D. It seems then the Light within is the Spirit you pleaded for to be the Rule in opposition to the Scriptures But 't is plain enough that v. 18. speaks of the Gospel for it relates to the Preacher spoken of v. 14 15. who were Prophets and Apostles And though the words are taken out of Psal 19.4 yet they intend not that n●tu●al knowledge of God which David speaks of but the Apostle would intimate that the knowl●dge of Christ by th● Gospel should be of as large extent in the publication as the knowledge of God by the Ministry of the heavens and Firmament which are Davids Preachers Psal 19.1 And 't is evident that the word spoken of in the heart Rom. 10.8 is meant of the matters contained in the Scriptures for the Apostle saies ●xpresly That is the word of Faith which we preach and Acts 26.22 VVe say none other things than those which Moses and the Prophets did say should come which sayings are contained in the Old Testament And as for your odd notion of the Words being within not without I say but this that it remains without when it is within as the matter in a Book does to instruct others when the Reader hath throughly digested it in his memory and unde●standing And that as to the Saints somewhat of the word is alwaies without when some is within that is the Word prevails but in part over their corruption and so far as it does prevail it is within so far as it prevails not it is without Mr. F. In Col. 3.16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly that which is the word of Christ dwells within whereas that which ye call the VVord is without T. D. The VVord spoken of was without or it was the Letter of the Scripture and his exhortation was to get acquaintance therewith and he prescribes means to that end in teaching and admonishing one another and singing Psalms which were part of the Word of Christ as the subject matter and author of them Mr. F. Now thou talkest of sing●ng Psalms it is a fond custom you get to make the people sing Davids conditions who have not his spirit as to make a proud man sing O Lord I am not puff'd in mind T. D. Though it be besides our businesse yet I shall answer to your cavils against our practice in a word Your objection holds as strongly against the use of them in the times of the Old Testament as against our use of them for the matter of them was no more all the singers conditions then than now and yet they were part of publique Temple-worship 2 Chron. 29.25 30. and the matter of many of them is doctrinal and prophetical and such as cannot be sung with particular application and I know no particular application necessary to singing that 131 Psal more than to reading of it nor is it more a lye to sing than to read them Mr F. VVhereas thou sayest Thomas Danson that the teaching and singing was a means of the words dwelling in them therein thou art out as in many other things for the word of Christ dwelt richly in them and thence they teached admonished and sung T. D. The words are an exhortation to get the word of Christ dwell richly in them or to grow in the knowledge of Christ as elsewhere 't is expressed and there is none that hath so much of the knowledge of the word but it may admit of encrease and therefore though they might teach and admonish from a stock of the word that hinders not but that the use of it in those duties might be the means of adding to it In the next place Richard Hubberthorn undertook to prove his Call in a discourse wh●ch you have in his own Book to which I referre you the main thing he insisted on was his Infallibility in teaching and the falsehood of our Ministry who are not Infallible T. D. You are much mistaken in thinking you are infallible it appears otherwise to us by the false doctrines which you teach and as for your participation of the infallible Spirit if that were granted which we cannot grant that infers not a participation of the spirits infallibility for that is as incommunicable as omnisciency or omnipotency R. Hu●berthorn The Apostles had a power of working miracles in them T. D. That i● d●nyed God himself was the sole subject of that power by which they were wrought and their faith was the means or sign of exerting it Acts 3.16 His Name through faith in his Name hath made this man strong c. Matth. 21.21 If ye have faith and doubt not c. ye shall say to this mountain be removed and it shall be done Mr. Fisher The man Christ Jesus whom ye call God-man was omniscient Joh. 2.24 Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men c. T. D. Pray sir Do not you call the man Christ Jesus God-man too Your silence is not consent but dissent Omnisciency agreed not to Christ as man for he says elsewhere the son of man knows not when the day

Whether the Scriptures are the VVord of God T. D. Mr. F. You promised to discourse upon this Question I desire to know what you hold about it Mr. F. if you mean by the Scripture the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the writing or the paper and ink we deny it to be the Word of God T. D Sir you cannot believe us so simple surely as to affirm the Scriptures in that sense the Word of God but we mean the matter contained in the writing whether that be our rule of faith and life Mr. F. This I affirm that there are several Books which are as much a rule as those you call the Scripture which are not bound up in your Bibles T. D. This is not to the purpose yet I should be glad to hear your proof Mr. F. 1 Cor. 5.9 I wrote unto you in an Epistle c. But now I have written unto you v. 11. Here you find an Epistle of Paul which was written before this which in your books is called the first T. D. Sir you fall short in your proof you should prove that the Epistle there mentioned was intended as much for our rule as these we have in our books and you prove only that such an Epistle was written by Paul Mr. F. If this Epistle was written to the same end with this you have viz. to instruct the Corinthians how to carry themselves toward grosse sinners then it was intended as much for a rule as this But it was written to the same end Ergo. T. D. I deny your consequence Sermons private religious discourses have the same common end with the written Scriptures yet the latter only are our standing-rule the former our rule but so farre as they agree with the latter in the Scriptures Mr. F. VVhat other evidence or character have you of this Epistles being a rule which the other wants that is not in your books T. D. Pray let me ask you one Question and I will answer yours Have you or any of your friends this first Epistle to the Corinthians or do you know that it is exstant Mr. F. No. T. D. Then I have a signal distinction between that and these we have viz. that God hath preserved these two for our use but not the first whereas had God intended the first for a standing rule to us as he hath the other two his providence which watched over these would also have watched over that Mr. F. But I will give you an instance of a Book which ye have not but we have Col. 4.16 And that ye likewise read the Epistle from Laodicea T D. Though it is certain that God intended not that for a standing rule which is lost yet all that was written by holy men and preserved for our use is not therefore our standing rule for then the discourses of holy Ministers in former and latter times should be our Rule which they are not but to be brought to the written Word as the Rule and Test But pray Sir what is the Title of that Epistle you have Mr. Fisher The Epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans T. D. So I thought such an Epistle I know there is that go●s under the name of Paul but the place you bring speaks not of an Epistle to Laodice● but from Laodicea And for ought you can prove to the contrary we have the Epistle Paul did intend 1 Tim. Postsc●ipt The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea Mr. Fisher Dost thou own the Postscripts to be Canonical as ye call it T. D. As Canonical for ought ●ppears yet to me as your Epistle to the Laodiceans W● know well enough that your Brethren of the Popish party have laid many such brats at the Apostles doors wh●ch they will not father And you shew what you a●e in abetting their wickedness I shall add that some learned men judge that Epistle mentioned from Laodicea Col. 4.16 to be not an Ep●stle written by Paul either from or to Laodicea but by th● Laodiceans to Paul which he would have read amon● the Collossians that they might understand the case of their Si●●e● Church and how sutable the matter of the Epistle to them was also to the Laodiceans Vid. Rev. Daven in locum And to make the businesse short Mr. Fisher suppose we should grant you there were such an Epistle legitimate yet it will not follow that it was intended for a rule to us For we have already as much as God thought sufficient read John 20.30 31. And many other signs truely did Jesus in the presence of his Disciples which are not written in this book but these are written that ye m●ght believe c. Suppose that we had the signs which are not in the Gospel faithfully recorded in writing yet were they not our Rule because God did not give order for them but has assured us as much as is sufficient to create and preserve Faith in the Gospel which we have Let us come to the Question which I propose to you in these terms Whether the Books commonly called the Old and New Testament were appointed by God for a standing Rule of Faith and life Mr. Fisher I deny those books to be a standing Rule of Faith and life T. D. Now you have spit your venom which I knew you were big with And I will say to you as the Apostle If any man bring any other Gospel than what we have received let him be accursed Mr Fisher I am sure the Gospel you preach will never bring men to heaven Indeed people it will not T. D. Then friends you hear his acknowledgement and how well he deserves the curse denounced against him Mr. F. If there be another standing Rule then the Scripture is not it but there is another standing Rule therefore the Scripture is not it T. D. I deny your Minor there is no other standing rule but the Scripture Mr. Fisher I prove there is from Gal. 5.16 This I say then walk in the spirit We are commanded to walk in or by the Spirit and therefore that is our rule The Scripture it self sends us to another for our rule T. D. That phrase does note the principle not the rule of our obedience in that place Mr. F. You suppose the Letter to be antecedent to the Spirit whereas the Spirit is antecedent to the Letter and none can walk in the Letter till they walk in the Spirit T. D. The Spirit is antecedent to the Letter in respect of the revelation of the Letter but the Spirit is subsequent to the Letter in respect of assistance and ability which he gives to obedience And whereas you affirm none can walk in the Letter till they walk in the Spirit if walking in the Spirit be meant of special assistance 't is false for many walk in many things according to the Letter without the Spirits in-dwelling as Paul while a Pharisee was touching the righteousnesse of the Law blamelesse Phil. 3.6 Mr. F. I will prove the Lette● of the

salvation to some who accept not of it out of particular fancy to them but exact of others that acceptance and for default of it deny them salvation then there might be some ground for the cavil but now that 't is offered upon equal terms there is none And for Christ being given for salvation to the ends of the earth that imports not so much as that the offer much lesse the benefit should be of su●h extent in all ages and generations as I shewed before but the fulfilling of that prophecy bears date from the Apostolical Commission Mat. 28.19 and it intends that no Nation how remote soever from Judea should want the offer nor some of it the benefit of salvation That a Minister of the Gospel doth not know who are elected And to this R. H. says there he hath belied the Ministers of the Gospel for they could discern the elect from the world as 't is written Ye shall discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not and these Teachers who know not the elect and yet exhort all their hearers to believe their preaching is in vain Reply I see you are hard put to it for a Scripture to bring that Mal. 3. ult I could have fitted you with one that would have been more specious 1 Thes 1.4 Knowing Brethren beloved your Election of God As for Mal. 3. ult 't is not strictly true till the day of judgement Solomon says No man knows love or hatred by all that is before him I should rather think our preaching is to more purpose because we know not who are elect for the ignorance of that gives us a ground to hope well of any man and indeed it were to no purpose to preach to those who are not elected unlesse that of leaving them inexcusable did we certainly know who are elect and so who are not for the latter would have no ground of hope which now they have in the indefinite promise made of none effect through their unbelief did we let them know they were excluded out of Gods purpose of salvation That the sword of the Spirit is ineffectual without the Letter To which R. H. says the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which was effectual before the Letter was Reply This man is so used to speak non-sense himself that he can understand it as well or better than good sense I did not say as he relates but that the Spirit was not wont to be ●ff ctual without the Letter or that he wrought upon the souls of men in and by the Letter of the Word and I gave that instance Rom. 10.17 Faith which is the Spirits work comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God As for what he sayes that the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God if he means like a man in his oppositions he must mean Christ who but once is called the Word of God Rev. 19.13 And Christ cannot be intended Eph. 6.17 because he is not the sword of the Spirit but the Spirit his sword rather for by the Spirit he works in the hearts of men and therefore Gen. 6.3 he sayes My Spirit shall not alwayes strive with man which is meant of the holy Ghost as will appear by comparing it with Act. 7 51. where Stephen tells the Jews Ye do alwayes resist the holy Ghost Christ by the common operations of his Spirit strives with men and by the special operations thereof prevails with them That there was no Scripture written but what is extant and in the Bible Against which assertion R. H. produces the book of Nathan Iddo c. mentioned in the Bible which he sayes were written for the same end and use Reply It does not appear that any of the Books mentioned in the Old Testament and to which we are referr'd for further satisfaction in historical matters were of Divine Inspiration but we may rather conclude that the Holy Ghost mentioning no more of History than was necessary for our Instruction refers us for the rest which was not of the like necessity to books of humane original And though they are the Books of Prophets yet it follows not that they were divinely inspir'd For they might as well write from their own spirits or upon humane credit as sometimes speak from their own spirits 2 Sam. 7.3 Nathan told David when he spake of building a Temple Go do all that is in thine heart for the Lord is with thee whenas God for bad him by the same Prophet which prohibition is call'd the word of the Lo d that came to Nathan v. 4.5 plainly enough intimating that the incouragement he gave David before was but the word of man And indeed 2 Pet. 2. last speaking of the motion of the Holy Ghost to write the Scriptures seems to limit it to that which was intended for a sure word of prophecy wherunto we should do well to take heed c. v. 19. That there was no Scripture appointed of God to be a Rule of Faith and manners but what is bound up in the Bible Reply That was my assertion and besides what I spake I shall adde that 't is not enough if it could be proved that other writings besides those we have were of Divine Inspiration For besides such Inspiration to make a Rule is necessary Gods appointment of a writing to that end Hence 't is observable that John is bidden to write what he saw and heard in the Book of Revelation no lesse than twelve times and some things of the like inspiration he was forbidden to write because not intended for the same end Rev. 10.4 And when the seven thunders had uttered th●ir voices I was about to write and I heard a voice from Heaven saying unto me seal up c. and write them not John 20.30.31 A●d many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his Discipl●s which are not wri●ten in ●his book but these are written that ye might bel●eve c. Those things which were not written might have b●en us●ful if they had been wr●tten for th●y were done for the same end with tho●e which are left u● yet because God thought that suffi●ient which we have we can look upon no more wi●h such regard as we do upon that That the letter doth antecede the Spirit in all that walked in the Spirit Reply I opened my own meaning as you may find in the dispute about the Scriptures and 't is this that the Spirits act of r●veal●ng the letter of the Scriptures antecedes the Spirits assistance in walking according to it That the works of Christ in some respect are not perfect To which R. H. saies that is false for every gift of God is perfect Reply I spake those words with reference to the work of sanc●ification which I affirmed to be imp●rfect in this life in comparison of what it is in the life to come For which I produced Phil. 3.12 Not as though I had already attained either were

When as he had no such plea for himself till it was put into his mouth and the generality of the people did then hout at Mr. Fisher for a lyar and did then and do still affirm that the man spake the former words And as for the matter whereof Mr. Fisher was accused part of it he denied not namely that he had been at Rome but that he received a Pension from the Pope he utterly denied which yet that is probably as true for I have it from very good hands that in his late travel to Constantinople and thence to Rome he had as good Bills of exchange as most Gentlemen that travel and yet 't is well known that he hath no visible estate And the Quakers who came to hear the dispute who I suppose would not bely him did report that he did bear his witnesse against the Pope and Cardinals at Rome and yet they suffered him not to be meddled with which how unprobable it is let all men judge but how much more probable that the true cause of his safety was his compliance with them the Doctrines which he broaches among us and as he saies in all other places being theirs and a fair inlet to their Bag and Baggage And to assure the Reader of the likelihood of his compliance with the Antichristian Faction thou maist please to know that the 12. instant English account two honest and credible men of Sandwich had some discourse with Mr. Fisher at Dunkirk Mr. Tho. Foxton Jurate Tho. Barber Cooper and he told them that he looked upon the Jesuits and Friars there to be sounder in Doctrine than those we call the Reformed Churches This they are ready to testifie at any time upon call Another passage I have to acquaint thee with viz. that the aforesaid Mr. Fisher in conference with the above-named Sandwich men at Dunkirk Mr. Tho. Foxton Jurate Tho. Barber Cooper May 12. English stile did affirm that he himself is above Ordinances and that there is no more use of them in this life to many persons than there is of a Candle-light when the sun shines and he gave instance in the uselesnesse of Baptism and the Lords Supper And the same witnesses were credibly informed at Dunkirk that Mr. Fisher hath great Bills of Exchange from a Quaking London Merchant and may take up four hundred pound if he will And hundreds of people can testifie how light he made of the charge of Popery on the first day of the Dispute John Boys Esq Mr. Ch. Nichols Mr. Th. Foxton c. when I pluck'd Amesius 4 Tome against Bellarmine and offer'd to read part of it out of the Latine into English and with a gesture of derision he replyed that Bellarmine held many Truths which must not be rejected because he held them and he gave for instance that Christ was the Son of God And as for the state of the Qu●stions two of them viz. The light of Nature and Perfection I need not produce any witnesses to prove because they constantly affi●m them but as for the rest they are wont to juggle equivocate about them Henry Oxenden John Boys Esq M. Nath. Barry Mr. Tho Seyliard Mr. Ch. Nichols Ministers The terms of the third Question were Whether good works be the meritorious cause of our Justification which was expresly affirmed by them And this being so grosse and Popish Luke Howard one of the Quakers present at the dispute Mr. Nath. Barry hath since denied that they did so affirm And in the Fourth question Mr. Fisher denied that the Books commonly called the Old and N●w Testament were appointed of God for a standing Rule of Faith and Life Henry Oxenden Esq M● Tho. Seyliard Mr. Ch. Nichols Min. Mr. Antho. Oldfield Mr. Tho. Foxton Mr. Tho. Rumsey Jurates And for the last the infallibility of their Ministry the three Jurates of Sandwich in the Margin will testifie that they did affirm their Ministry to be infallible To conclude all I shall give thee a tast of the craft even of the female Sex in evading Scriptures One of them was challenged for breaking the rule 1 Cor. 14.34 Let your women keep silence in the Church for it is not permitted to ●hem to speak c. To which challenge she replied that is spoken of the women that have husbands at home to learn of v. 38. but I have none but am a maid Another who was a wife being also challenged for preaching publickly Mr. Tho. Foxton and that Scripture urged against her I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority ov●r the man c. 1 Tim. 2.12 She readily replied that was spoken of the woman who was in the transgression but I am not one of them meaning it seems that women who are perfect had the liberty of teaching which was denied to other women And I had some private discourse with a Gentlewoman a Quaker Mrs. Dor. Gudderson and ●ging her with that Scriptur● M●rk 7.13 M●king the Word of God of none eff●ct which is spoken of the fifth Commandment v 9 12. part of the wri●ten Word to prove that the Scripture cals it self by the name of the Word of God and perceiving her at a losse I p●ess'd her for an answer in stead whereof she put me a question Mrs. Mary Paramour wouldst thou not have ●e imitate the man Christ in ●ll things To which when I answered yes in such things as are intended for our imitation she replies the man Christ did not alwaies answer such cavilling questions as were asked him neither will I ●nswer thee And when she was urged with those Scriptu●es Rom. 16 and other Epistles which enjoyn Saluta●ions she pretended that she not being a Roman nor Corinthian what Paul wrote to them was nothing to her unlesse the Spirit within her did prompt her to do the same things And that thou maist see how great a str●sse they lay upon small matters I will tell thee a true story which perhaps may move thy laugh●er that a Kinsman by marriage of the same Gentlewomans making offer to salute her at his own house April 12 1659. she went two or three steps back with these words I have renounced the Devil and the Flesh long since prethee forbear that custom of the World These things I thought good to add at the desire of some worthy persons which else I had omitted that the world may take notice not onely of the wickednesse but of the absurdity of these peoples Principles FINIS BOOKS sold by John Allen at the Rising SUNNE in Pauls Church-yard Viz. Mr. Caryl's 5th Vol. 7th Vol. 8th Vol. 9th Vol. on Job Beza Novum Testamentum Fol. Mr. Allens Scripture Chronologie 4º Mr. Baxters Call to the unconverted 12o. Mr. Lukins practice of Godlinesse 12o. A Catechism of the chief Heads of Christian Religion by Mr. Davenport Mr. Hooke of New-England 8º The Faith and Order owned and practised in the Congregational Churches in England agreed upon and consented unto by their Elders messengers at their meeting at the Savoy Octob. 12 1658. Mr. Cottons Treatise on the Covenant of Grace Johannes Becoldus Redivivus the English Quaker the German Enthusiast revived A Defence and Justification of Ministers Maintenance by Tythes and of Infant-Baptism Humane Learning and the Sword of the Magistrate which some Anabaptists falsly call four sandy Pillars and Popish Foundations of our Ministry and Churches written by Immanuel Bourne Pastor to the Congregation at Waltham in the County of Leicester Pre●bytery and Independency vindicated in answer to Mr. John Tympsons Treatise of a free admission to the Lords T●ble It s now in the Press Mr. Gatt ker against judi ial Astrology The vanity of judicial A●●rology written by Gassandus Mathemetical Prof●ssor to the Ki●g of France Several Case● of Conscience concerning ASTROLOGY and seekers unto Astrologers answered bo●h from the VVord of God and from the Testimony of our most godly and eminent Divines published by a Friend to the Truth in which Book Judicial Astrologie is proved to be 1. Expresly fo●bidden by the VVord of God as a grand offence and ought not to be practised countenanced nor tollerated D●u 18.10 11. Lev. 20.6 Isai 47.13 14. Jer. 10.2 The Reasons why it is so expresly forbidden are 1. It is a practice whereby men do assume to themselves that which is peculiar unto God viz. Judgement concerning future events either concerning Kingdoms or Persons Isai 41.22 23. 2. Because it draws the hearts of men from God the Father and Christ his Son from considering the VVorks of the one hearking to the words of the other Isai 5.12 Col. 1.8 18 19. Deut. 18.10 16. 3. Because it is false delusive and uncertain Isai 44.15 4. Because it nourisheth vain and forbidden hopes and fears Jer. 10.2 All which Considerations published are to this end 1. As an alarum that the Consciences of those that study it may be awakened that they may be fully convinced of the great evill that is in it that abhorring such an abominable evil that is so hateful to God and a reall trouble to the Consciences of good men by leaving the sin they may avoid the punishment 2. That Conscientious Magistrates may know how nearly it concerns them to do their duties in vindicating the Glory of God by putting a period to the study of Judicial Astrology a practise indeed that brings the honour of God into so much contempt in the world 3. Lastly That all those that have a desire to learn it and those who enquire of Astrologers what good or ill Fortune as they term it shall happen to them in the course of their lives may through Gods Grace stifle such unlawful desires all which through the Grace of God shall be the prayers and supplications of him put up in the name of the Lord Jesus who is their friend to his power JOHN ALLEN He that converteth a sinner from the errour of his way shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins James ● 20