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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85082	Sir Lucius Cary, late Lord Viscount of Falkland, his discourse of infallibility, with an answer to it: and his Lordships reply. Never before published. Together with Mr. Walter Mountague's letter concerning the changing his religion. / Answered by my Lord of Falkland.	Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; White, Thomas, 1593-1676.; Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.; Triplett, Thomas, 1602 or 3-1670.	1651 (1651)	Wing F317; Thomason E634_1; ESTC R4128	179,640	346

naturall order and will of the Maker ordred for the conservation of the most inward essence which is the charity we owe to God and our Neighbour Wherefore Christian life and action consisteth but upon one main tradition whose parts be those particulars which men specifie either in matter of Beleefe or Action So that this connextion of its parts amongst themselves added to the Spirit of God ever conserving zeale in the heart of his Church with those helpes also of nature wherewith we see wonders in this kind done will shew this conservation to be so far from impossibility that it will appeare a most con-naturall and fitting thing Let us but consider it constant nations their language their habits their manners of sacrificing eating generally living how long it doth continue amongst them See that forlorne nation of Jewes how constantly it maintaineth the Scripture how obstinately their errors The Arabians of the desert from Ismael his time unto this day live in families wandring about the desert Where Christians labour to convert Idolaters they find the maine and onely argument for their errors that they received them from their fore-fathers and will not quit them The King of Socotora thinking to please the Portugals by reducing a nation that had the name of Christians to true Christianity he found them obstinately protest unto him that they would sooner lose their lives then part with the religion their Ancestors had left them The Maronites a small handfull of people amongst Turks and Heretiques to this day have maintained their religion in Siria And certainly thousands of examples of this kind may be collected in all Nations and Countries especially if they be either rude and such as mingle not with others or such as be wise and out of wisedome seek to maintaine their ancient beleefe And Catholiques are of both natures For they have strict commands not to come to the Ceremonies and Rites of other religions and in their own they have all meanes imaginable to affect them to it and conserve a reverence and zeale towards it CHAP. VII TO come at length to the principall aime of this Treatise that is to give an answer to him that demandeth a guide at my hands I remit him to the moderne present visible Church of Rome that is her who is in an externe sensible communion with the externe sensible Clergy of Rome and the externe sensible Head and Pastour of the Church If he aske me now how he shall know her I suppose he meaneth how he should know her to be the true I must contreinterrogate him who he is that is in whose name he speaketh Is he an ignorant man Is he unlearned yet of good understanding in the world Is he a Scholler and what Scholler A Gramarian whose understanding hath no other helpe then of languages Is he a Phylosopher Is he a Divine I meane an Academicall one for a true Divine is to teach not to aske this question Is he a Statesman For he who can think one answer can or ought be made to all these may likewise expect that a round bowle may stop a square hole or one cause produce all effects and hang lead at his heels to fly withall Yet I deny not but all these must have the same guide though they are to be assured of that in divers sorts and manners If therefore the ignorant man speaketh I will shew him in the Church of God an excellencie in decencie Majestie of Ceremonies above all other Sects and Religions whereby dull capacities are sweetly ensnared to beleeve the truth they hear from whom they see to have the outward Signs of vertue and devotion If the unlearned ask I shew him the claim of Antiquitie the multitude the advantages of sanctity and learning the justifiableness of the cause how the world was once in this accord and those who opposed when they first parted first began the Schism how the points of difference be such as on the Catholike side help devotion and on the contrary diminish the same and such like sensible differences which will clearly shew a main advantage on the Catholike side which is the proportionall motive to his understanding To the Grammarian I will give two Memorandums First that seeing Catholiques were first in possession both of the Scriptures and the interpretations the adverse part is bound to bring such places as can receive no probable Exposition by the Catholikes It is not sufficient that their Expositions seem good or better that is more conformable unto the Text but they must be evincent to which no so sound answer even with some impropriety can be given For who knoweth not that is conversant in Criticks how many obscure and difficult places occurre in most plain Authors and the Scripture of all Books the greater part of the men who wrote them specially the new Testament being not eloquent and writing not in their native tongue for the most part are subject to many Improprieties The other Memorandum is That to prove a Catholike point by Scripture it is sufficient that the place brought do bear the Explication the Catholike beareth and if it be more probable by the very letter it is an evincent place The reason is Because the Question being about a Christian Law the Axioms of the Jurists taketh place that Consuetudo optima interpres Legis So that if it be manifest that Christian practise which was before the controversie be for the one sense and the words be tolerable no force of Grammar can prevail to equalize this advantage The Grammarian therefore who will observe these rules I turn him loose to the Scriptures and Fathers to seek in them what is the faith of Christ and properties of his Church to know her by Of the the Philosopher I exact to go like a Philosopher and to search out the pecificall differences of every Sect and when he hath found them if any one but the Catholike hath any rule of Faith and good life which I remit to him to enquire But at least when he hath found the Catholiques to be this claim of Tradition before declared then if this doe not bring him as demonstratively as he knoweth any conclusion in Philosophie and Mathematicks to the notice that this is the only true Church of Christ for my part I shall quit him before God and man The Divine if he hath truly understood the principles of his Faith in the nature of a Divine I mean Trinity Incarnation Redemption Eucharist Beatitude the Creation and Dissolution of the World and hath seen the exact conformitie with the deepest principles of nature with an unspeakable wisedome of the contriver If he does not plainly confesse it was above the nature of man to frame the Catholike-Religion and seeth not that onely that is conformable to nature and it selfe I say he hath no ground sufficient to be of it At last the Statesman who is truly informed of the Church how far it is really of Christs Institution and what

upon this is left no Question or Fasting which if you think Protestants are against I pray read Bishop Andrews his Lent Sermons and which if it be not so much used among us as it should is not so much the fault of the Religion as of the Men and all these things considered I find none of your motives to shew a maine advantage on your side and therefore I have yet no cause to leave my owne And if in some of these things you should seeme to have more Truth then we yet that would not free you from having more error in other points then this comes to much lesse from having any at all without the beliefe of which I should not be received among you though I were willing to come And this lieth upon you to prove and that not by probable but by infallible arguments if you require as they say your side useth to do an assent of that Nature Object To the Grammarian I will give two Memorandums first that seeing the Catholick's were first in possession both of the Scriptures and the Interpretations The adverse part is bound to bring such places as can receive no probable Exposition by the Catholickes For who knoweth not that is conversant in Criticks how many obscure and difficult places occurre in most plaine Authors and the Scripture of all Bookes the greater part of the men that wrote them especially the New Testament being not eloquent and writing not in their native Tongue for the most part are subject to much impropriety The other Memorandum is that to prove a Catholique point by Scripture it is sufficient that the place brought beare the Exposition the Catholique giveth and if it be the more probable by the very letter it is an evincent place The reason is because the question being of a Christian law the Axiome of the Jurists taketh place that Consuetudo optima Interpres Legis so that if it be manifest that Christian practise which was before the controversie bee for the one sence and the words be tolerable no force of Grammer can prevaile to equalize this advantage The Grammarian therefore who will observe these Rules I turne him loose to the Scriptures and Fathers to seeke there what is the Faith of Christ and proprieties of her Church to know her by Resp To your first Memorandum I answer that you have grounded it wholly upon begging the question for if those of your Religion had first been in possession of the Scriptures then the Christians had been of it in the Apostles times which if you could prove you would need to prove no more but all would easilie follow and then for your consequence that is equallie false for though I confesse to make any Doctrine a point of Faith it is required that the place be as plaine as you please yet to the making it the more probable opinion and consequentlie excluding the contrarie from being necessarie so much is not required The greatest cause of the obscuritie of those bookes in which Criticks are conversant is the negligence and ignorance of Transcribers so that some Authors would scarce know their own Bookes if they were revived whereas the great care of Christians about so deare a pledge hath much if not wholly hindered the same cause from perverting and so obscuring Scripture At least if it have not it seemes your Church is not so faithfull a Guardian of her deposit as her deare friends moved by partiallitie or ends would make us beleeve Besides till now I ever thought that Eloquence rather lead men to speake improperlie then the want of it since ignorant persons keepe themselves within the bounds of what preciselie they meane whereas the eloquent wander into figures which are so many and have gotten such footing in language whilst in the search of significancie proprietie is lost that those who use them are obliged to those who will please to understand because all they say may beare two sences the one proper the other improper And though it be true that they have over-flowne even into the language of the ignorant yet it is as true that both they are much lesse used among these and that they had not hence their beginning but from Eloquence And though the Apostles write not in their native Tongues yet they write in an inspired language so that they were not likely to commit at least any such soloecismes as should destroy the end of the Inspirer which was that they should be understood by it To your second Memorandum I answer that since every man is free till some thing binds him you who pretend that we are bound to receive more doctrine as necessarie then appeares to us to be so are in all reason to give us plainlie evincent proofe that what you thus require God requires too for till then to returne you to another Axiome for yours praesumitur pro libertate whereas wee the burden of the Negative proofe not lying upon us if we bring probable Arguments we doe it ex abundanti and bring more then we need to bring And whereas you stand upon Customes having power in Law matters I answer that in all cases that is not of force for we hold that it must not prevaile against a Statute which shewes that they may be contradictorie and as Nullum tempus occurrit Regi is thought to be a good civill topicall Law so me thinkes Nullum tempus occurrit veritati is a good publique divinitie Law your owne Scripture too telling us that Truth is stronger then the King Besides where it is of force it is in such cases as the law hath appointed that it should be so and if you can prove out of Christs Law that there it is so appointed to be in matters of Divinity wee shall willinglie yeild but seeing that our law which allowes this force to custome sets downe also in how long time it is before it become of force and I have cause to thinke that Christ would have been 〈◊〉 carefull as our law and have set down this too if he had had any such meaning and if it were setled to be a custome of such a standing as by Saint Austine sometimes is spoken of as that in no time it be known that ever it was otherwise in most of your affaires this would stead you a little though one side have burnt the evidences of the other to which in likeliehood you owe it if this stead you in any of questions whereof Scripture and Antiquitie are wholly silent or meerly speculative and unreducible unto act of which sort are the greatest between us or not concerning the lawfulnesse but the necessity of an Action to the first kind no ancient custome can belong nor other to the others then a custome of Interpretation of some text concerning it not enough to conclude upon besides that it is not that which you speake of since daily your men differ and defend their differing from all that went before them about more

his Apostles But abstracting from that who doth not see that the Church hath the nature and proportion of ones Country unto every one As in a mans Country he hath Father and Mother Brothers Sisters Kinsfolkes Allyes Neighbours and Country-men which anciently were called Cives or Concives and of these are made his Country so in the Church findeth he in way of spirituall instruction and education all these degrees neerer and farther off until he come unto that further most of being of all united under the universall Government of Christ his Vicar And as he in his Countrey findeth bearing breeding settling in estates and fortunes and lastly protection and security so likewise in the way of Christianity doth he find this more fully in the Church so that if it be true that a man oweth more unto his Master then unto his Father because bene esse is better then esse certainly a man also as far as Church and Country can be separated must owe more to the Church then to his very Country wherefore likewise the power which the Church hath to command and instruct is greater then the power of the temporall Country and community whereof he is part Againe this Church can satisfie learned and unlearned For in matters above the reach of reason whose source and spring is from what Christ and his Apostles taught what learned man that understands the nature of science and method can refuse in his inmost soule to bow to that which is testified by so great a multitude to have come from Christ And what unlearned man can require more for his faith then to be taught by a Mistresse of so many prerogatives and advantages above all others Or how can he think to be quieted in conscience if he be not content to fare as she doth who hath this prerogative evident that none is so likely by thousands of degrees CHAP. VI. THe stemme and body of our position thus raised will of it selfe shoot out the branches of divers Questions or rather the solution thereof And first How it hapned that diverse Heretiques have pretended tradition the Millenarians Carpocratians Gnostiaks and divers others yet they with their traditions have been rejected and the holy Church left onely in claime of tradition For if we look into what Catholique tradition is and what the said Heretiques pretended under the name of Tradition the question will remain voided For the Catholique Church calleth Tradition that doctrine which was publikely preached in the Churches ordred and planted in the manners and customes of the Church The Heretiques called Tradition a kind of secret doctrine either gathered out of private conversation with the Apostles or rather they pretended that the Apostles besides what they publikely taught the world had another private or mysticall way proper to Schollers more endeared then the rest which came not to publike view but was in huggermugger delivered from those secret Disciples unto others and so unto them where it is easily seen what difference there is betwixt this Catholique Tradition and this pretended For the force and energie of tradition residing in the multitudes of hearers and being planted in the perpetuall action and life of Christians so that it must have such a publicity that it cannot be unknown amongst them Those the Heretiques pretend both manifestly want the life and being of traditions and by the very great report of them lose all authority and name For suppose some privare doctrine of an Apostle to some Disciple should be published and recorded by that Disciple and some others this might well be a truth but would never obtain the force of a Catholique position that is such as it should be damnation to reject because the descent from the Apostle is not notorious and fitting to sway the body of the whole Church The Second Question may be How it commeth to passe that something which at first bindeth not the Churches beleef afterward commeth to bind it For if it were ever a Tradition it must ever be publique and bind the Church And if once it were not it appeareth not how ever it could come to be for if this age for example hath it not how can it deliver it over to the next age that followeth But if we consider that the hope of Christian doctrine being great and the Apostles preaching in so great varietie of Countries it might happen some point in one Countrie to have been lesse understood or peradventure not preached at all which in another was often preached and well both understood and retained we may easily free our selves from these brambles For the Spirit of Tradition residing in this that the testimony of that the Apostles delivered this Doctrine be exceptione majus and beyond all danger of deceit It is not necessary to the efficaciousness of Tradition that the whole universall Church be witnesse to such a truth but so great a part as could be a Warrant against mistaking and deceit so that if all the Churches of Asia or Greece or Aphrique or Egypt should constantly affirm such a Doctrine to have been delivered unto them by the Apostles it were enough to make a Doctrine exceptione majorem Whence it insueth that if in a meeting of the Universall Church it were found that such a part had such a Tradition concerning some matter whereof the rest either had no knowledge or no certainty such a Doctrine would passe into a necessary bond in the whole Church which before was either unknown or doubted of in some part thereof A likely example thereof might be in the Canonicall bookes the which being written some to one Church and some to another by little and little were spread from those Churches unto others and so some sooner some later received into the constant beleife of the Catholique world The Third question may be How Christian religion consisting in so many points it is possible to be kept incorrupted by tradition the which depending on memory and our memory being so fraile and subject to variation it seemeth cannot without manifest miracle conserve so great diversity of points unchanged for so many ages But if we consider that Faith is a Science and Science a thing whose parts are so connexed that if one be false all must needs be false we shall easily see that contrarily the multitude of divers points is a conservation the one to the other For if one be certaine it of it selfe is able to bring us to the right in another whereof we doubt And as in a mans body if he wanteth one member or the operation of it he must needs find the want of it in another And as a Common-wealth that is well ordained cannot misse any office or part without the redounding of the dessect upon the whole or some other part so a Christian being an essence instituted by God as specially as any naturall creature hath not the parts of his faith and action by accident and chance knitted together but all parts by a

and better wits Saint Augustine justifieth such proceeding against Here tiques Saint Gregory advised the like against Pagans if I remember and the Church laterly hath rather increased then decreased in the practise of it Mores's speech I beleeve is mistaken the force of it being that the banishment of Bishops shewed his faith because the banished were Catholiques which shewed Lucius to be none But what can be said if the Church useth that for the prevention of a greater and more dangerous evill which all politique Estates use for the remedies of lesse and lesse dangerous evils and are commended for it For if Faith be the way of Salvation and hereby the bane of Faith if Salvation be the greatest good then the danger of a Countries being over runne with Heresie is the greatest of dangers greater then the multiplying of Theeves greater then the unsurety of the wayes greater then a Plague or Invasion Why then doth not reason force us to use the meanes to prevent it which the same reason and experience teacheth us to be most efficacious in this and all other contagious and gangrening maladies of the Common-wealth I hope reason it selfe and the zeale of the Author to his own and Countries Salvation will supply my shortnesse in this point For supposing a Church be assured she is in the right and that the doctrine preached by another leadeth to damnation I know not why Caipha's words should not be propheticall in this case and that truly it doth not expedire that unus moriatur pro populo non tota gens pereat He urgeth afterwards against the unity of the Church that it is none such as we brag off And I confesse we brag of it and thinke we have reason too And if it please him to look into the difference of our Country of England and some Land of Barbarians as Brasile or such other where they live without Law or Government I thinke he will find that our bragging is not without ground For wherein is the difference betwixt a civill Government and a barbarous Anarchie Is it either that in a civill Estate there be no quarrels or amongst Barbarians there is no quiet The former would prejudice our Courts and Justice the latter is impossible even in nature What is then the goodnesse of Government but that in a well govern'd Country there is a meanes to end quarrels and in an Anarchy there can be no assured peace This therefore is that we brag of that amongst us if any controversie rise there is a way to end it which is not amongst them who part from us And secondly that there is no assured agreement amongst those who are parted from us for although to day they agree there is no bond nor tye why to morrow they may not disagree These two things we brag of and I think the Author will not deny it For he confesseth we all agree in that the Church is an infallible Mistresse Then it is evident that if in any controversie she interposeth her judgement the controversie is ended He likewise confesseth that who part from us have no such definitive authority amongst them and that Scripture whereon they relie hath not this vertue to take up controversies clearly Againe I doe confesse most English men confesse a Trinity the Incarnation and Passion of our Saviour but if to morrow any one or more of them light upon some book of an Arrian Trinitarian or other Sect so wittily written that he putteth probable solutions for the places of Scriptures sheweth slight wayes how our well-meaning fore-fathers may have slipped into such an error what is there to retaine these men from disagreeing with the rest of their brethern and betake themselves to the Arrians And when the heat is passed light upon some Rabbi who shall cunningly exaggerate the absurdities as he shall terme them of the Trinity Incarnation Passion say our Saviour did strange things in vertue of some constellation and delivering these things so oratorically that for a new heat these things shall seem more conformable then his Arrianisme what then shall hinder this to become a Jew and at last to prove himselfe so great a Clerk as to write De Tribus Impostoribus Take away the power of the Church which every man doth who taketh away the Infallibility what can retaine any man why he should not yeeld to that discourse which seemeth fairest seeing nothing is certaine But peradventure some may attribute power unto the Church without Infallibility whom I would have consider but what himselfe saith For his Church by the power it hath must either say I command you to beleeve me or I command you to professe this whether you beleeve me or no. The second I think no enemy of equivocation will admit as the former is as much as if it should say I know not whether I say true or no yet you must think I say true So that if I understand any thing where there is no Infallibility there is no Power where no Power no Unity where no Unity no Entity no Church Now for the controversies mentioned besides that there is a meanes to terminate them they be such as bring no breach of the ancient life and action of Christians which all those Opinions doe which for the most part are reputed to make Heretiques That some controversies amongst us are not resolved is a thing necessary amongst humane affaires where things must have a time to be borne to encrease to fall and the greater things are the greater is their period Wherefore I doe not see why this may hurt the Church more then the Suits which hang in our Courts prejudice the Government of the Land Neither can any other Church assume Infallibility to it selfe because it cannot lay hold of this principle that it receiveth its doctrine by hands and so must first professe the Church of Christ to be fallible or else it cannot part from it The last point of the Authors discourse is to shew how errors might have crept in Wherein I shall have no opposition with him for I doe not thinke the question is how they should creep in but how they should be kept out For the fluxibility of humane nature is so great that it is no wonder if errors should have crept in the wayes being so many but it is a great wonder of God that none should have crept in This neverthelesse I may say if the Author will confesse as I think he will not deny but that it is disputable whether any error in sixteen ages hath crept in this very thing is above nature For if there were not an excellency beyond the nature of corruptible things it would be undeniably evident that not one or two but hundreds of errors had quite changed the shape of the Church in so many yeares tempests divisions want of commerce in the body of the Church But this one maxime that she receiveth her Faith by Tradition and not from Doctors hath ever kept

other points that before the Councell it lay in Archivis Ecclesiae in the Deskes of the Church then claime such a Tradition for it as appeares it can never be defended that it had Let us consider but two opinions more That Infants are not to receive the Eucharist is now both the doctrine and practise of the Roman Church but six hundred yeeres the Church us'd it Saint Austine accounted it necessary at least in some sence of the word if not absolutely which last is most likely because from the necessity of that which could not be receiv'd but by them who had received Baptisme he and Innocentius a Pope prove the necessity of Baptisme and an Apostolicall Tradition If therefore both these Ages had gone by your Rule how comes this difference between their opinions the Sacrament being the same it was and the Children the same they were This I may consider and see if the same way that this Doctrine hath been altered whether any other might not have received change Next that Saints are invocable you must say is Tradition taught from Father to Sonne as deriv'd from the Apostles if you will be constant to your own principle now though I might disprove this first by the many Fathers that beleeved the Just not to be admitted to the Beatificall vision before the day of judgement for upon this your side now grounds that but to be kept in secret receptacles and by the long time which pass'd before this doctrine was condemn'd Secondly by the beginning of it which was particular Doctors Hipotheticall prayers with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and such conditionall clauses And thirdly by Nicephorus Calistus his Relation who in this is a believable witnesse because he allowes of your opinion that prayers to the Virgin Mary were first brought into the publick Liturgie by one Petrus Gnapheus a Heretick about five hundred yeares after Christ Lib. 15. C. 28 yet I will rather chuse to confute this by the confession of Sancta Clara out of Horantius who to this objection that sub Evangelio which must mean when the Gospel was preacht no such precept is extant Pag. 271. not onely denies it not but gives this reason for it least the Pagans should think themselves brought againe to the worshipping of Men instead of Gods If upon this or any other reason this were not then taught then have not all your Doctrines such a Pedigree as you suppose but allow it were yet howsoever it followes that some at least of the learned of your Church have not been taught that they have or consequently that it is necessary they should have Though it seemes to me little less then Montanisme to believe that any since as it were a Paraclet should perfect the doctrine which then was delivered by the Apostles Neither can you answer that they speake onely of such a Precept and of being extant whereas they might teach it lawfull without giving any Precept and they might have given such a Precept although not extant for I should readily reply that the reason they give why there is none such extant shewes that they mean there was none at all neither Precept nor allowance since the Pagans would have been scandaliz'd at its being accounted lawfull to worship men instead of Gods although it were not commanded and not a whit the lesse whether that in after times were extant or not which they could not foresee The onelie answer which I am able to invent in your behalfe is this that though some of your particular doctrines have not such a Tradition yet there being a Tradition that the Churches definitions are infallible whatsoever she at any time define is then to be believed upon the strength of such a Tradition and before did latere in causis as Flowers do in Winter Yet to this I may reply by desiring you to enter with me into some few considerations First If this were so and that so much of Christian Religion depends upon the definitions of the Church and our Reception of them upon knowing alwaies which is she and that such is her authority can you perswade your selfe that Christ sending his Apostles and Disciples to Preach the Gospel and after four of them writing his Gospel which shewes if the Books be true to the title that they writ all they preacht at least that was necessarie for else they were not Gospels but Parts of it that they should not rather leave out any thing else how important soever then not have imploied themselves about teaching us that the Churches Definitions are a Rule of our Faith and instructing us in Markes so proper to her that we might never need to doubt whether it be she that defines or no and whether their not having done this evince not in Reason that this your Doctrine is false Secondly I pray consider whether if there were any such continu'd Tradition about the Definitions of the Church whether that must not also have taught or else have been to small purpose when it is that the Church hath defin'd but yet that is a case not fully judged among you For some hold that the Church hath defin'd when a Councel hath although unapproved by the Pope which is denied by others Thirdly Consider whether supposing as was before suppos'd it must not also have taught certaine Notes to know the Church by but yet about those you are not agreed Tom. 13. Pag. 193. Salmeron putting Miracles among the false Signes of the Church and Bellarmine and many more among the True ones Fourthly Consider whether the Church have an eternall spring of Doctrines within her or but a finite number and onely those which the Apostles preacht and I believe you will pitch upon the latter Not then to ask how they come to know them nor if you answer by Tradition to ask you againe how come men then not to know before a Definition what it is they Preacht for if the Bishops of which a Councell is compounded know it not now how will they know it when they meet I will desire to know why the Church will not at once teach us all the knowes and not keep us in doubts which she may resolve and did the Apostles teach their Doctrines to be lockt up or taught to us And then having considered this you will find I believe that the Church do with Doctrines as Fathers with Estates never give their Children all that they may still have something to keep them in awe with because if she should she could never have after pretended a Power to end any new emergent controversie keeping in secret what she knowes any that ariseth she may still pretend is endable by her Fiftly Consider that it will appear but a shift if you say that there is a Tradition that all the Churches Definitions be true and so excuse the particular Doctrines for otherwise having none and yet avoid giving us any Rules to know the Church by at all times and answering those

chiefe Apostles which founded her of the Empire which was long seated in her and of her ancient Bishops whereof about thirtie together were martyr'd there what by interpreting what was given to her Authority as given to her Power and taking civilities and complements of which no Court is now so full as the ancient Bishops were made to Popes for alleagiance sworn to them what by forging false decretall Epistles which the Tearmed Authors of them would not forgive them for if they knew it if it were onely for the barbarous language what by these and such other waies she is come at length to that passe that what Avitus a Roman Generall said to the Ansibarians who gave him reasons why he ought not in justice to disturbe their possessions Id Diis placitum Tacitus ut Arbitrium penes Romanos maneret quid darent quidve adimerent neque alios Judices quam seipsos paterentur It is the will of Heaven that it be left to the Romans what they will please to give or take away and suffer not any Judges but themselves appeares now not so much a History of the Pride of the Roman Empire as a Prophecy of the generall doctrine or the Roman Church Having ever marked Error and Confidence to keep so much company that I seldome find the first but I mistrust the second makes me loath to affirme any thing over-dogmatically out of these objections or say that they cannot be answered Onely because I must not offend against Truth for feare of offending against Modesty I will take leave to say that if I could have answered them my selfe I would not have put you to the trouble of doing it which you might also have sav'd if by letting me know your name you would have enabled me to have found you out and so in a short discourse have tried whether I could have obtain'd that satisfaction from your words which I must now expect from your Pen. But supposing I had none of these objections yet two things besides would have kept me from assenting to what you say The first is that your men when they aske us how we know Scripture to be Scripture and this to be the sence of it tell us withall that unlesse we know it by some more infallible way then our owne Reason they mean their Church it will not serve for a beliefe of those things which are to be believ'd by a divine Faith Now this Argument of yours upon which you build all allowing that it appear'd good reason yet at most it is but reason and liable to the same exceptions unlesse the same thing be a wall when you leane upon it and a bulrush when we doe The second is that all you say for as yet you speak not of the Authority of the Particular Church of Rome though you must at length come to it though by that too little is to be gotten if it were granted would but prove those who adhere now to the Church of Rome to be now in the right but I asked for a guide which might without new search serve me the next yeer as well as this For for all that you have prov'd she may leave the way you say she now pretends to walk in and attempt to reform too which I wish were as probable as it is possible or there may arise a schisme between two parts of those Churches which now adhere to the Roman and both may claime Tradition for what hath been may be againe and how shall I know then which side to take since both will seem equally good by that Touchstone which you appoint me to try with And if I be then sent to try by Ancient Writers it is certaine that besides the fallibility of that way for the learned this cannot be done at all by the ignorant and it is probable that both Parties will fall into that absurdity into which the Church of Rome daily runs which is that although the evidence which she claimes by cannot well be exactlie read over in thirty yeares time yet she requires us under paine of Damnation to give our Verdicts for her by twenty yeeres old The Second Part. Object THe high and Sage Master of our Faith hath in vaine spent so much sweat and paines if after he passed from hence he hath left no meanes to assure mankind what it was he taught and practised Resp I suppose this speech is directed at me who as you conceive take away all meanes because I have no Judge but I would faine know of you whether Plato and Aristotle have not left us meanes to know what they taught although they have not left us any living infallible Judge to deliver us their doctrine verbally or to expound their works Or if you intended your Accent upon the word Asiure and if you mean by that some infallible knowledge I desire you out of your own words to consider whether humane nature be capable of it For my part supposing as I doe that his Faith is in a sufficient degree which brings forth obedience I require not any motives more assuring except from them who claime that they cannot erre then such as any man unpraepossest with passion or prejudice will beleeve sufficiently to obey and such in my opinion are mine For though I know you count any way without a guide but groping in the dark yet if God had nor given us so much light as we desired we must not therefore set up false lights and because we would be sure to have a guide make one our selves But he seemes to me to have dealt with us in Religon not very un-analogically to what he hath in the world giving us two lights Scripture and Universall Tradition whereof one gives light to the other and both to us Universall Tradition is our Guide to Scripture as whatsoever else that guided us to we would receive if there were any such thing and Scripture is our way to God By Universall Tradition we know much better that these Books were written by Christs Disciples who are sufficient witnesses of what he taught then the Aristotelians know that these were Aristotles works or the Academicks knew Plato's since Christians have both kept them with more care and in the acceptance of them used more caution as thinking them so much more important In the Scripture I conceive that according to that rule which I am sure I have either read in Chrysostome or very often quoted out of him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all that is necessary is clear or if any man that strives to square both his actions and opinions by that Rule chance to fall into any error for which his understanding is onely in fault and not his will it shall not hinder his rising to heaven Such an infallible way excludes if not all use at least all necessity of an infallible guide and is as good as a Judge to keep Unity in Charitie which is onely needfull though not in opinions and indeed

taught them If they were not then necessary how have they grown to be so since Besides I appeal to your Conscience whether it appear that the doctrine of the Exchequer of Superabundant merits of which the Pope is Lord Treasurer and by vertue of which he dispenseth his pardons to all the Soules in Purgatory appear to have been known even to any of the best Christians and whether if it had been known to them as a Tradition being a Doctrine which necessitates at least Wisdome and Charity a continuall practice of sueing for them and of giving them it were possible that of what they knew such infinite Volumes of Authors should make no mention Object Suppose some private Doctrine of an Apostle to some Disciple should be published and recorded by that Disciple and some others this might well be a Truth but never obtain the force of a Catholique Position that is such as it would be a damnation to reject because the descent from the Apostle is not notorious and fit to sway the body of the whole Church Resp I confesse that to have been no more generally delivered will prove that the Apostles thought not such a Doctrine necessary else their Charity would not have suffered them to have so much concealed it but yet to any such Doctrine it is impossible that any Christian who believes the testimony that it came from the Apostles should deny his assent because it were to deny the Authority upon which all the rest is grounded for the Church pretends to her Authority from them and not they from her and howsoever such a Doctrine although not necessary could not be damnable as you make this Besides here will first arise a Question not easie to be decided how great a multitude of Witnesses will serve to be notorious and fit to sway the body of the Church especially so many having not for a long while been thought fit even by Catholiques though attesting doctrines since received by you all and considering that multitude of your Church which believe the immaculate Conception in as high a degree as it is possible without excommunicating the deniers who either walk not by that which you count the onely Catholique Rule or else claime such a Tradition who yet are not thought fit to sway the rest Secondly I pray observe how easie it was for the two first Ages at least the chiefe of them and all that are extant to have given assent to Traditions so unsufficiently testified or to have mistaken Doctrines under that notion for so they did to this of the Chiliasts and then after for it to spread till it were generall and last as long as men last upon their authority and when once it is so spread how shall we then discover how small an Originall it had when peradventure the head and spring of it will be as hard to find as that of Nilus so that the greatest part of what you receive might possibly appear to be no certainer nor better built if we could digg to the foundation Wherefore since the delivery of a Tradition by subsequent Ages hath its validity onely from the authority of the first me thinks you should either think that they received none but upon better grounds or else think these grounds good Thirdly I know not why you resolve this opinion of the Chiliasts to have had onely such a private Tradition for though they name John the Disciple and mention certaine Priests who heard it from him yet they deny not a more general delivery of it but peradventure least men might think that the generall opinion that it came from the Apostles might arise from places of Scripture which fallacie their testimony when not so fully expressed was still in danger of concerning any point but that these books were written by these men they therefore thought it fit to name to us their witnesses that it came from Christs owne mouth and in what words And if they had done so much on your side for the differences between us I believe you would now have few Protestant adversaries left for you would have converted the greater part and by that have been enabled to burn the smaller Object The second Question may be How it cometh to passe that some things which at first bindes not the Churches beliefe afterwards commeth to bind it For if it were ever a Tradition it ever must needs be publique and ever bind the Church and if once it were not it appears not how ever it could come to be for if this age for example have it not how can it deliver it to the next that followeth But if we consider that the scope of Christian Doctrine being great and the Apostles preaching in so great varieties of Countries it might happen some point in one Country might be lesse understood or peradventure not preacht which in another was often preacht and well both understood and retained we may easily free our selves from these brambles For the Spirit of Tradition residing in this that the testimony be exceptione majus and beyond all danger of deceit It is not necessary to the efficaciousnesse of Tradition that the whole vniversall Church should be witnesse to such a truth but so great a part as could be a warrant against mistaking so that if all the Churches of Asia Greece or Affrick or Aegypt should constantly affirm such a Tradition to have been delivered them from the Apostles it were enough to make a Doctrine exceptione majorem Whence it ensueth that if in a meeting of the vniversall Church it were found that such a part hath such a Tradition concerning some matter whereof the rest had either no understanding or no certainly such a Doctrine would passe into a necessary bond of Faith in the whole Church Resp Your sword is so sharp and your shield so weak that I can hardly believe they came out of the same forge but when I observe how much you have a better right hand then a left and that not onely you have raised an objection which you cannot lay but your answer to it multiplies more I cannot but compare you to him in Lucian Philos who travelling with a Magician that had no servant and instead of one was daily wont to say to a Pestle Pestle be thou a man and it would be so and when his occasions were served would bid it return to be a Pestle and was obeyed thought one time to imitate the Magitian he being abroad and made indeed the Pestle a man and draw water but could not make it return to the former state but it continued still to draw wherefore angry and afraid he took up an axe and clove the Pestle-man in two whereupon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in stead of one water-drawer there lept up two For first I pray consider what could you have found more certaine to destroy all which you had before laboured to settle about the Infallibilitie of your Tradition then this distincton of Exceptione Major

the true sence of these Councels why should not the same disposition in us towards the Scripture be thought every whit as sufficient not onely to keepe us in unitie but to secure us from danger To conclude though unitie be a thing much spoken of by you yet I finde it chieflie onely in your discourse your differences are many and great onelie you say you agree in what is necessarie and make the measure of things necessarie what you agree in so the summe is you agree in what you doe agree which it is impossible you should not though you had carried away the bayes from Bibrias his Tombe eager against us and yet divided among your selves like the state of an Armie in Tacitus Manente Legionum auxiliorumque ubi adversus Paganos certandum foret consensu and if your Church brag of such an Unity I perceive a small matter will make her brag Resp Againe I do confesse most English men confesse a Trinity the Incarnation and Passion of our Saviour but if to morrow any one or more of them light upon some Book of an Arrian Trinitarian or other Sect so wittily written that he putteth probable solutions for the places of Scriptures shewes slight waies how our well meaning fore-fathers may have slipped into such an Error what is there to retaine those men from disagreeing with the rest of their Bretheren and betake themselves to the Arrians And when the heat is past light upon some Rabbi who shall cunningly exaggerate the absurdities as he shall tearm them of the Trinitie Incarnation Say our Saviour did strange things in vertue of some Constellation and delivering these things so Oratorically that for a new heat some of these things shall seem more conformable then his Arrianisme what then shall hinder this man to become a Jew and at last to prove himself so great a Clerk as to write de tribus Impostoribus Take away the power of the Church which every man doth who taketh away the Infallibility what can retaine any man why he should not yeeld to that discourse which seemeth fairest seeing nothing is certaine Repl. And if you should meet with a book which should give probable solutions to the places of Scripture and reasons which you now think prove the authority of the Church and bring other though suppose but slight yet such as may seem strong Arguments to prove it not infallible and shew waies of the same kind how your ancestors may have slipt in that and by that into other errors what is there to retaine you with the rest of your Bretheren and betaking your selfe to us If you say this is impossible to be done so think the Protestants that the Arrians can give them no probable answer to their places of Scripture and such as will seem so to some is no imputation to their grounds since so may and do our Answers and Objections to some of you who thereupon leave you and yet you count not your grounds disparaged For my part I professe my self not onely to be an Anti-Trinitarian but a Turk whensoever more reason appeares to me for that then for the Contrary and so sure would you be too for the pretended infallibility of your Church could no longer hold you if you thought you saw reason to beleeve it fallible as you must do if all weighed more reason appeared of her adversaries side either your proofes of her authority not to be probable or else your Doctrinestaught by her more contrary to reason then her authority though probably founded yet not upon demonstrations is sufficient to caution and answer for It is true so long as you stick to this hold upon the Roman Church you are sure to receive no error but which she offers you and indeed you need not for those are enough but that destroied which is apter to be destroied then most of the Protestants as weaklier supported by reason then no error that a Protestant may fall into but so may you too and the other is but such a Priviledge as I may have by sticking to the English Church as well as you to the Roman And though this following your guide may be able as long as she keep her self to keep you from some Ditches into which you might otherwise fall yet it may lead you unto others and indeed there is no error but by this way you are liable too yea even of those which she now condemnes since though she changed her opinion which is neither impossible nor unlawfull yet you are by your blind obedience to believe that she had not and to submit your understanding in this Question to some distinction though without a difference These things then I dislike in what you say First Your saying as though there is nothing to retain a Protestant from being of any error when it shall appeare more probable to him then Truth therefore there were nothing to keep him from those errors whereas you should have considered that the greater probabilities may serve reasonably to hold him without a demonstration and the evidence of the thing without a guide and that if those be not ground enough for a man to fix upon in how ill estate are those of your Church in the Question concerning the Church in which they follow no guide nor have any demonstration but professe they yeeld to her authority but upon prudentiall motives which kind of arguments sure may as well and as fixedly preserve a Protestant in an Orthodox opinion against a Heretick as the authoritie of the Church no surelier founded can you against us That every man should yeeld to that discourse which seemeth fairest to him I confesse it is alwaies not onelie safe and fit but also necessarie even for them who receive the Infallibilitie of the Church since those who beleeve that beleeve it because that appeares fairest to them and as you object to us the possibilitie of being perswaded from the truth by some wittie Author why thinke you not the same Author may possiblie too appeare to you to destroy your prudentiall Motives and so consequentlie your whole Faith which is built upon the Church which is built upon them Secondlie I dislike your seeming to beleeve that any grounds which are not demonstrative are too slipperie to rest upon as not onelie being contrarie to reason but to your selfe who told me before that no more was required then a maine advantage on one side and that we had reason to be satisfied with Probabilities to guide our Actions in Religion or since by them we were content to regulate all the other Actions of our life Thirdlie I dislike in your own parties behalfe your saying that a Protestant is in good likelihood to turne Arrian for if you meane onelie that it is possible it concernes you as much as them since this seemes to inferre that the Scriptures doe make more probablie for them which if they did it is not Heresie and to contradict all those whom both parts call