shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
of those words Except yee eat the flesh of the son of mā c. killeth therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part he granteth the wicked may eat that when it hath beene eatē in the end it is auoided into the place of easement Hom 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth the christ made mention of his ascension Iohn 6. to wtdraw thē from corporall fleshly vnderstāding of his words vpon these words whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son c. But Chrys goeth plainly to work saith in his 11. Hom vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels but the mistery sacrament thereof is therin conteined And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn sheweth vs the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words which is to vnderstand them saieth he simply and in his 4. Homil vpon the 4. to the Corinth he telleth vs that the body of Christ is the carion where the Eagles will bee he nameth eagles saieth he to shew that who so will approch to his body must mount aloft haue no dealing with the earth nor be drawē downward but must euermore fly vp c. For this is a table of Eagles saieth he that fly on high not of Iaies that creepe beneath Christ tooke bread which cōforteth mās hart that he might represēt therby his body bloud saith Hier. vpō the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacramēt drīk the similitude of christs bloud saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke 4 c. of the sacraments Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis writeth thus Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread wine which he called his body bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers that the Apostles might declare vnto the world how in what maner the bread may be the flesh bloud of Christ And the maner straight way he declareth thus that those things which do signifie those things which be signified by thē may be both called by one name Fulgētius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words This cup or chalice is the new Testamēt that is to say doth signifie the new Testament Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth that Christ honoured the signes and representatiōs which are seene with the name of his body and bloud not changing their natures but adding grace to nature and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature for they tary in their former substance figure and forme Yea euen Gelasius a Pope about the yeare 500. against Eutiches is as plaine saying in the Eucharist the substāce and nature of bread and wine cease not For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries And Bertram in his treatise of this matter writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes testimonies to shew that bread and wine remaine still and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery And Bede vpon Luke 22. saith because bread doeth comfort mans heart and wine doeth make good bloud in his body therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body and the wine to Christs bloud The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate Emissenus de consecrat Dist 2. cap. Quia corpus compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated which we all know is in quality and not in substance There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time about the yeare of the Lord 996 being then as some write Bishop of Canterbury wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ then manna and the water of the rocke was Christ who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies and in that which was to be read on Easter day there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation and your reall presence And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time yea mo thē you well like of that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence as we are now This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world And it is famously knowen that before your Lateran Councel vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation which is the ground of your reall presence And Tonstall though otherwise a great man on your side yet in his booke of this sacrament saieth perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter of the maner how Christ is present to his owne coniecture as by his confession before the councel of Lateran it was left at libertie And Iohn Duns a frend of yours vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely then by Transubstantiation if it had pleased the Church Gabriel Biell another great doctour vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible how the body of Christ is there whither by Trāsubstantiatiō or Consubstantiation Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylō is enforced to confesse that he findeth not in Mathew nor any where els in the scripture any thing to proue that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter hee maketh the bread wine the body and bloud of Christ and so concludeth that he thinketh that euery man vnderstandeth that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell as it doeth vpon the vse tradition and custome of the Church These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words your new deuise of transubstantiation the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence For the cause thereof denied and taken away the effect must cease and if the
they haue deceiued the simple people vvithall vnderstande welbeloued in the Lord vvhosoeuer thou art first for transubstantiation the very archpiller of their Synagoge that if they bee very busie to seeke out who first gaue inkling of such a matter they shall finde indeede the originall thereof not to come from Marke the Euangelist or anie of his fellowshippe but from one Marke a notable Magitian and filthie heretique of the broode of Valentinian that liued as it seemeth by the stories in the raigne of Antoninus Pius about one hundred and fifteene yeares after Christ For Epiphanius in his thirty foure heresie noteth and when hee hath done plentifully confirmeth it out of the first booke of Irenaeus and his ninth chapter against the heresies of ValeÌ„tiniaÌ„ others that this same heretique by his enchaÌ„tmeÌ„t hauiÌ„g first caused a cup of white wine to beare the colour of blood made his followers beleeue that by his inuocation over it it was so traÌ„substantiated into blood that seing that he had giveÌ„ thaÌ„ks ouer it long praied it might be thought of them that gratiaÌ„ quae est super vniuersa sanguinem suum instillâsse in illud poculum that is that grace that is aboue all things had poured his bloud into that cup by which meanes wheÌ„ he had made them in admiration of him desirous to drink thereof he giues it them with great deuotion solemnity of words so wonderfully bewitched many Indeed this fellow may very wel be allowed for the first auÌ„cient fouÌ„der of this point of doctrin for there being not any one point of popery wherein Antichrist hath more manifestly shewed him selfe coÌ„trary to Christ then in this as in truth there is not because for the establishing vse of this he is both spoiled of the true nature of a maÌ„ office of the only sufficieÌ„t priest of the new testament to offer himselfe once for all for the redemption of his church who can be fitter then this auncient enchauÌ„ter Marcus to be the first author and patrone hereof especially seing Irenaeus speaking of him in the eight chapter of the foresaid booke as it should seeme secretly directed by the spirit of prophesy saith thas he was verè praecursor Antichristi that is truely Antichrists fore-runner Yet how notably soeuer this Marcus caused many simple persons in his time to beleeue his transubstaÌ„tiation of wine into the bloud of Grace yet he was so baited detected confounded for his lewd and cosening dealing therein and in other points by Irenaeus Epiphanius and others that howsoeuer in the meane time Antichrist his successour was busie vnder Leo the 9. in a councell at Vercellis and after in the councell of Lateran vnder Nicholas the 2. about the yeare of the lord 1060. in bringing Berengarius to recantatioÌ„ to reuiue againe this doctrine of transubstantiation yet as their own friends confesse namely Tonstall in his booke of the sacrament of Christs body and bloud it could not nor was not decreed for a certaine and vniuersall doctrine before Innocent the thirds time in another councell at Lateran about the yeare of Christ 1215. before which couÌ„cel the Greeke Church had separated themselues from the Latine and therefore it being a point of Doctrine not receaued as Catholike before that diuision neuer since could it be receaued in the Greeke Church for any Catholike truth How can it then haue countenance of all Christian Regions and times Bertram Berengarius the Waldenses in sundry places by writing speaking opposed themselues against it as witnesseth Bertrams book of the sacrameÌ„t the condemnation of Berengarius opinion about it at Vercellis and the articles of the Waldenses Yea a little before and in this Pope Innocents time a certaine people about Iohn de Albines Tolossa called Albigenses and that in great mighty multitudes as the French Cronicles shew denied reall presence of Christ vnder or with the outward elements in this sacrament in somuch as great warres were raised to subdue them But of this matter also I haue spoken so much chapter eleuenth 17. that here I neede thereof say no more Now touching Images or Idols and the worshipping thereof I must needes confesse that for their dealing about them they may very well pretend both antiquity and vniuersality For it appeares in all stories and in the scriptures themselues that that way not onely all other nations but also euen the people of the Iewes themselues haue beene alwaies wonderfully giuen to pollute and defile themselues but withall it appeares that god in his word writteÌ„ against no abhominatioÌ„ hath cried out either more often or more vehemently then against this But amongst Christians the first that we reade of that worshipped the image of Iesus or any other was Marcellina a filthy companion of the phantasticall heretique Carpocrates but both in Epiphanius heresi 27. and in Augustine ad Quod vult deum we finde this both noted condemned amongst other detestable errours of the Carpocratians This Carpocrates liued in the beginning of the empire of Antoninus Pius Anicet then being Bishoppe of Rome about the yeare of the lord 109. And in Origens time who died as Spanhemensis saith in the yeare of Christ 261. hee in his seuenth book to Celsus noteth that then the Christians neither suffered images nor pillers to be worshipped Likewise in Arnobius aduersus gentes who florished about the 300. yeare after Christ it appeares that the geÌ„tils obiected that as a matter of disgrace against the ChristiaÌ„s that they neither had nor worshipped any such But so far of was it that the christiaÌ„s theÌ„ thought it any disgrace vnto theÌ„ that OrigeÌ„ in the place before quoted saith that the Iewes ChristiaÌ„s hearing the law Exo. 20. not only refuse images of god choosing rather to die then to make or worship any such adding this as a reasoÌ„ that god is inuisible without body And likewise Clemens Alexandrinus who florished 100. yeares before Origen in his exhortation to the heathen confesses willingly this their obiection to be true that Christians had no images that might be discerned by sence but onely by vnderstanding because to vse that deceitfull art saieth he was forbid theÌ„ Yea and that Christians and their teÌ„ples might continue still free froÌ„ them in Constantines time in a councel held in Spaine at Eliberis can 36. it was decreed thus It hath pleased vs to determine that no pictures should be suffered in churches least that which is worshipped or adored should be painted in walles Isid tom 1. coÌ„ci And therfore Epiphaniê° 55. yeares after this councell about the yeare of Christ 390. as it appeares in his Epistle to Iohn of IerusaleÌ„ finding in the entrance of the church at Anablatha in that Iohns dioces the image of a maÌ„ pictured on a cloth there haÌ„ging puld it downe tare it asuÌ„der writing to the foresaid Iohn about it though as he confessed it seemed vnto him that it was made for
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
that within the compasse of their coÌ„mission they had to doe many new and straÌ„ge things namely to call the Gentils to the fellowship of the Church to preach the abrogation of Moses ceremonies to administer new sacrameÌ„ts to ordeine new officers in the Church as Euangelists pastours and doctours and especially to preach Iesus Christ to be the person of the Messias god and man the onely and sole Sauiour of the world for which things sake it was needfull for them to worke miracles howsoeuer it was needeles in respect of the other old doctrine concerning the one true God And therefore to make it appeare that their miracles were wrought especially for the confirmation of this point that Iesus was the Christ the person of the Messias alwaies they worke their miracles in his name whereas wee doe not preach some one point of olde doctrine onely but altogether from point to point our doctrine is olde and hath beene sufficiently by Christ and his Apostles already confirmed by miracles neither haue we any newe but the olde ordinary offices of pastours and doctours to publish it and indeede wee take vpon vs no newe or strange thing but labour as nigh as possibly we can to conforme our selues euerie waie to the patterne shewed vs of ancient time by Christ and his Apostles Wherefore vnlesse as you haue shewed that Moses and the Apostles taught this one olde lesson that there is but one God and that he is he that made heauen earth so ye could haue shewed also that they wrought al their miracles to confirme that that otherwise besides that they had no new strange things to doe teach for confirmation whereof miracles were needeful therefore done by theÌ„ this that you say of theÌ„ is nothing to binde vs to worke miracles doing nothing or teaching nothing otherwise then was done and taught 1500. yeares ago and more by Christ and his Apostles and so you might haue spared all that you haue saied or can say to proue that this is an old and no new doctrine that there is a God that he is but one The XIX Chapter LActantius Firmianus in his book of his diuine institutions cap. 5. vvriting against the GeÌ„tiles doeth proue that there is but one God he doeth alleadge as witnesses all the olde learned Philosophers such as Thales Milesius Pythagoras Anaxagoras Cleanthus Anaximeus Crysippus Heno Plato Aristotle Seneca and others Octauius likewise a Christian Oratour disputing against Cecilius as theÌ„ a Gentle doeth alleage likewise to confound these olde Philosophers and he doeth adde more Xenophon Spensippus Demaritus Strato Theophrastus many more * a Act. 12. S. Paul likewise preaching to the Athenians doeth protest a Act. 17. you should haue said that he doth teach them no new thing but rather him vvhom they did vvorship did not know By the vvhich it is plainelie to be seene that the Apostles did not announce vnto the people anie new law for it vvas verie olde and notwithstanding they did confirme it vvith miracles And if you saie that although those learned Philosophers had aknowledge of God as it doeth appeare by their vvorkes yet there is fouÌ„d in them no mention of Iesus Christ and therefore that it vvas necessarie to approue that doctrine vvith signes and miracles But contrarivvise that you in your new reformed Gospell doe preach the olde Apostolicall lawe I doe answere you to this that the 9. Sybilles b Though it was foreseene that such a one shuld come yet that Iesus the sonne of Mary was he was new and needed such coÌ„firmation by miracles did speake of his comming and birth euen as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and amongst other Sybilla Erithrea did as fullie Prophesie of the comming of our Sauiour to iudge the quicke and the dead as anie other Prophet at S Augustine doeth testifie c Ther is nothing once sounding that way In other places I graunt he speaketh hereof but he no where thâ—s matcheth them with the Prophets Lib. 1. de ciui dei cap. 23. Likewise of his death and passion and of the miracles he should doe before his death The Oracles of the false Gods haue likewise declared vnto the Gentiles the coÌ„ming of Christ as Lactantius Firmianus doeth vvrite * Liâ— 1. cap. 15. li. 4. cap. 15. in his booke of the diuine institutions Nicephorus in like maner doeth vvrite how Augustus Cesar sacrifising to the God Apollo Pithius in his temple could get no other but a verie briefe answere then Cesar did demaund why hee could not make him then as fullie answere as he did at other times Apollo vvas constrained to saie the trueth the vvhich was that a young Hebrewe childe borne of late did commaunde him to retire himselfe into his hell d You text and your margent agree â—oâ—y our margent is right and the other wrong vnto vvhom he was forced to yeelde obediently forasmuch as he was God and gouernour of the other Gods therefore that he did couÌ„sell the saied Cesar quietlie to retire himselfe to make no more adoe the verses are these Me puer Hebraeus diuos deus ipse gubernans Cedere sede â—ubet tristemque redire sub orcum Aris ergo dehinc tacitus abscedito nostris The XIX Chapter YOur proofes in this Chapter out of Lactantius and Octauius that the doctrine of one God is olde and ancient in that they induce the olde learned Philosophers as witnesses thereof and that which you alleadge to the same ende spoken by S. Paul Act. 17. and not as your quotation is Act. 12. might well inough haue beene omitted For as it is a thing not in question so also as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied in mine answere to your former Chapter it proueth not the thing you intend for that both Moses and the Apostles had other matters in their commission that were new and strange for confirmation whereof they wrought their miracles and not for this purpose only But foreseeing that we would in some part answere as I haue shewed that the doctrine of Iesus to be the person of the Messias yet was new in respect whereof it was necessarie for them to approue their doctrine by miracles you would proue that that was not new neither and so your meaning is that the oldnes of our doctrine caÌ„not proue miracles to be vnnecessary But let vs heare how you proue this In this Chapter you proue it by the testimony of the nine Sibils especially of Sibilla Erithrea the rather for Augustines testimony of her in his 1. booke of the citty of God c. 23. though indeede there be no mention at al of her in that place who you say did speake as plainely fully of his comming birth miracles death comming to iudgement as any of the Prophets out of Lactantius 1. booke 15. c. of diuine institutions out of Nicephorus by the oracle that Apollo gaue of him to the
againe I require the voice of the sheepheard read me this matter out of the Prophets read it out of the Psalms read it out of the law read it out of the Gospel read it out of the Apostles writings in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ gratiâ and according to these bookes of the scriptures we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium The fathers are full of such places whereby any man may see that by their very good leaue we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing not taught in the scriptures vpon their bare authority and therefore these and such like places in them considered if you would haue had their names the places you cite in them to haue in sadnes bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for either should you haue warraÌ„ted them by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant at the least to the same Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader to make him thinke that the fathers you name for these matters are further of your opinion then they be indeede as I haue not refused to examine your opinion and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies so will I for the Christian readers sake take the paines to deale with you for in al your other 3 opinions of confession praier to Saints for the dead with it your seueral quotations set down for the proofe of the same To go on therefore according to my course begun for confession before the receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t you saie first our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn 20. Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession that you speake of you meane your auricular confession wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care that that in the 6 7 and 8 Canon thereof touching this matter it solemnely anathematizeth al those that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation by the law of God saying that it is but the deuise of man Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest of al mortal sins at the least with al their circumstances whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares of both sexes at least once in the yeare and that namely in lent before their receiuing at Easter Now this confession your schoolmen and doctours do teach must be made so fullie and exactly that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be coÌ„cealed for then therby al the labour is lost and the absolutioÌ„ frustrated from al the rest Which doctrine cannot chuse but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of coÌ„scieÌ„ces For first it laieth vpoÌ„ them an ineuitable necessity not onelie to doe that which God neuer required at their hands but also that which either is simply impossible vnto theÌ„ to doe for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof or else impossible for them to doe in such maner as that they can satisfie themselues that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins the circuÌ„stances thereof that they should coÌ„fesse to their remeÌ„braÌ„ce which a nuÌ„ber of your owne side most deuoutly giueÌ„ to doe this in the best maner haue bene enforced to confesse Yet this confession before the sacrament though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures but was as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict 17. art 3. and Anton part 3. histatit 19 doe confesse first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel in InnoceÌ„t the thirds time about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene you here would seeme to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce by two places of scripture co begin withal But your betters haue thought otherwise of this your kinde of confession For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely that it came in rather by some tradition then either by authority of the olde testament or new which tradition he saieth yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it though not the Greekes East Church which haue it not And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof not onely gathered that it was not in vse then but also hee sheweth that he thought it came in after grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times And Soto coÌ„tra BreÌ„tiuÌ„ reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints and for the dead this also amongst the things grouÌ„ded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply honestly if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather then from the scriptures But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there which they could not let vs a little consider how fâ—ly now the places you quote serue your turne You meane I am sure both by your words and quotations that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew John in the places you quote in these words to thee speaking namely in the first place to Peter I wil giue the keies of the kingdoÌ„e of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth shal be bound in heauen whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heaueÌ„ And in the other he breathed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ and saied receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sins yee remit they are remitted whose sins yee retaine they are retained Wherby indeed it is euident that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest after gaue to al his faithful Apostles first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the â—eies of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose and to remit retaine sinnes which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the peniteÌ„t beleeuer and denouÌ„ced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers with all duety as they saw cause vsing the censures of the Church of admonition rebuking suspending and excommunicating though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still not by the helpe of your
aside of all our sorrowes and the banishing of all tēptations because they die not but liue for euer which seeme to die and therefore saieth he we keepe the memories of the Saints and of our parents and frendes which die in the faith as reioycing for their rest so begging for our selues consūmation in the faith and to this ende to celebrate the memory of such so departed we call the poore togither and satisfy thē with victualls in token of our ioy thankfulnes for their quietnes rest He that getteth not forgiuenes of his sinnes here shal not be there and therefore saieth Dauid forgiue mee that I may bee refreshed before I go hence and be no more seene saieth Ambrofe de hono mortis cap. 2. And Cyprian against Demetrian saieth most flatly when one is gone hence there is no place for repētance no effect of satisfaction de mortalitate againe he saieth what maner of one God findeth thee when he calleth thee euen such an one also will hee iudge thee Chrysostome is as flat as Ambrose in these points For vpon the 4. of the Hebrewe hom 4. he saieth that if we come to the throne of grace now we shall haue grace mercy now is the time of gifts after of iudgemēt and in his sermon de Eucharistiâ in Eucaen there is saieth he after this life ended no negotiatiō this is the time of suffering or striuing that of crowns this of labour that of ease this of sorow that of reward therefore in the 7. Hom vpon the 2. of the Hebrewes shewing a reason of the solemnities vsed at burials he saieth that the reasō thereof is that we may glorify God giue him thāks that hath crowned taken to himselfe our brother departed freed him from his labours seruitude are not our Psalmes hymnes for this our singing omnia ista gaudētiū sunt al these saith he are the doings of men that reioyce de beato Philogonio most cōfidētly he writeth Ego fide iubeo c. that is I doe pawne my credit if any depart from his sinnes with his whole heart truly and vnfeinedly promise vnto God that he will returne no more vnto them that God will require nothing more of him to satisfaction But to come to Augustin he in his 80. epistle to Hesichius saith in what state soeuer thy last day findeth thee in the same will the last day of the worlde come vpon thee for what maner of one euery man dieth such an one then he shal be iudged and vpō the 25. Psa he plainely wisheth that only the price of the Lords bloud might be sufficient to him for his perfect freedome and deliuerance Herein we are sure they had the scriptures full of their sides For first they assure vs that the bloud of Iesus Christ doth clense vs from all sinne 1. Iohn 1. and that hee so bare our sinnes in his owne body vpon the tree that by his stripes we are healed 1. Pe. 2. Secondly they teach vs that blessed are they that dye in the Lord for euen thenceforth immediatly they rest from their labours and their works follow them Apo. 14. And thirdly likewise directly they affirme that an ill man once dead there is no more hope for him Pro. 11. and that therefore wee must haue oyle in our lāps in a readines when the bridegroome calleth vs or else we shal be shut out for euer what stur soeuer we make to prouide oyle after Mat. 25. And lastly in these vpon these grounds all men are vrged whiles the day lasteth while the acceptable time or day of saluatiō endureth whiles the Lord is nigh and may be found whiles they haue time to worke to embrace the gospel to seeke the Lord and to doe good vnto al men as it is well enough knowen And therefore if these fathers as mē at any time or any other ether by their example or writing haue in any point neuer so litle in any kind of sort crossed thēselues the holy canonicall scriptures in any of these points either in praying for the dead or in laying any groūd or occasiō therof we may boldly leaue thē chuse rather to cleaue vnto thē in these These things thus premised let vs now proceed to the particuler examining of Iohn de Albines quotatiōs for their kind of praier for the dead His first mā is Tert. for higher he cānot go to fetch any shew of colour for this matter vnles he would run to Apocrypha writings to philosophers poets to heretiques or to the notoriously knowen coūterfeit writings of Clemēt such like And out of this Tertulliā he alleageth two places the first out of his book de Monogamiâ the other out of his book de coronâ militis both which were writē by him after he becāe a Montanist as Beatus Rhenanus in his argumēts of those two books is ēforced to cōfes for in the later he mētioneth the new prophecy therby vnderstāding Mōtanus fācies in the other he most plainly cōdēneth secōd mariage quite cōtrary to the doctrin of S. Paul as Hierom hath truely noted vpon Titus and therefore both there he condemneth that booke as an hereticall booke and also in his catalogue of ecclesiasticall wryters as a booke writen against the Church Albine therfore hath aptlier then he was aware of sought out an heretique in his hereticall wrytings to bee the first man to speake for the patronising of this popish heresie of his But perhaps he wil say that he learned not of heretiques to speake for prayer for the dead Whereunto I reply that if euer he wrote any thing therin to serue your turne he learned it of no better schoolemasters then of such or of philosophers their ordinarie teachers For as hee himselfe writeth de praescript aduersus haereticos as the original of al trueth was doctrine receaued by the Apostles frō Christ so the spring of al errour hath beene frō the diuel by philosophers And touching this particuler in his booke de animâ he writeth that the philosophers that helde the immortality of the soule as Pythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned for soules departed heauen hell and a thirde purifying place and in that booke he sheweth that Montanus his master helde that the Patriarches before Christs comming were in hell that Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower parts that onely perfect men and martyrs went to heauen streight and that all small offences must be punished after this life to the vttermost farthing his paraclet so expounding that of Mat. ca. de inf vlt and in that booke also he telleth of a woman lying to bee buried that at the praiers of the Priest ouer her lifted vp her hands c. whereby it seemeth that the heretique Montanus his paraclet might be very fit schoolmasters to teach him a great part of your doctrine in this point Further that you may see not only by his own
for it as you would make men beleeue your prayers for the dead be For that had beene then furiously for a trifle to rage against the dead But alas master Albine both you and your fellowes are wonderfully deceaued in thinking that Cyprian meant here by oblation sacrifice and prayer as you doe For questionles by oblation and sacrifice he meant but the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing and therefore he saied not pro peccatis eius for his sins but pro dormitione eius for his sleeping and by praier not praier for to ease him of his sinnes but the publique and ordinary praier wherein then they vsed to make commemoration or remembrance of the godly brother departed the better to prouoke others thereby to imitate him which you might perceaue by his saying he deserueth not to be naÌ„ed in the praier of the Priest All which you might the better haue learned thus to vnderstande if you had remembred that the same Cyprian in his fourth booke of epistles epist 5. hauing spoken of certaine famous Martyrs Celerin Laurence and Ignatius addeth for these alwaies you remember wee offer sacrifices as oft as wee solemnize the passions and dayes of the Martyrs anniuersariâ commemoratione with a yearely commemoration For I am sure you holde that these were not in purgatory and that therefore these stoode in no neede to haue an oblation and sacrifice of the masse offered for them or praiers in your sence to be made for them Yea how can these otherwise be vnderstoode then of the oblation and sacrifice of thankesgiuing in the memorial or remembring the godly life and constant Christian death of such And so we neither dislike the practise of such thankful coÌ„memorations of the godly departed now nor deny that of ancient time for the comfort and instruction of them that were aliue that it hath beene vsed And of this offering of the oblation of praise and thankesgiuing for the faithfull departed very well may and must that be vnderstoode which vsually you alleadge so much out of the Lyturgies which you father vpoÌ„ Basil and Chrysostome For you know in offering it they teach you to offer it to God for those that are at rest in faith their elders their fathers patriarchs Prophets Apostles Euangelists Martyrs and for Mary the blessed Virgin her selfe For I hope you thinke not all these staÌ„d in neede to be offered praied for to be eased in purgatory And yet your praying for the dead your purgatory are right Hypocrates twins they must laugh and weepe togither they must stand and fal beginne and ende both at once I am sure you haue heard of Augustines saying Qui orat pro martyre iniuriam facit martyri he that prayeth for a martyr iniureth a martyr And therefore long after the councell of Bracchar in Spaine mentioneth onely a coÌ„memoration of the dead that die in the Lorde with Psalmes of thankesgiuing which it forbiddeth to be vsed for those that kill themselues or for their faults are put to death can 34. Indeede in that councell which was in the yeare of the Lorde 630. in the time of Honorius the first for I speake of the first held there I finde mentioÌ„ in the 39. Canon which is the last thereof not onely of a commemoration of the dead but of some offering when that was or when the feasts of martyrs in their memories were kept of mony or some other thing for the reliefe of the needy where order is taken for the receauing of it and bestowing of it which either were the free will offerings of the liuing to testifie their thankfulnesse to God for the good departure of the dead or bequests and legacies of the dead to the reliefe of the poore other holy vses against the staying detaining whereof the fourth Councell of Carthage and the second of Vase sharplie decreed And it appeareth in Iustinus martyrs second apologie that euen so long ago after the communion there was an oblation of almes giuen for such vses but he in neither of his apologies though therein hee shewe what the forme and maner of the Christians seruing of GOD then was of purpose once remembreth so much as any commemoration then made of the dead in their assemblies Of such offerings and oblations at the commemorations of the dead I noted before what the authour of the tractes vpon Iob commonly fathered vpon Origen hath saied Other oblation sacrifice or offering then these two of thanksegiuing and almes I cannot finde in any ancient and sound writer allowed The more are you to blame Master Albine that thorow the ambiguity of the wordes not vnderstoode of your simple Reader will make him beleeue that yet because Cyprian hath these words that therefore thereby he alloweth of your kinde of offerings oblations and sacrifice of the â—asse for the sinnes of the dead If there had beene aâ—â—â—â—ch vse of the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ why haue none of the Apostles or Euangelists made any mention of it Or neither Christ nor they hauing spoken one word of anie such vse of it what reason is there that if there aftercoÌ„mers should without all warraÌ„t from any of them that we should be leeue them therein Surely whosoeuer he be that should especially also seeing we cannot finde how many kinde of sacrifices soeuer God for diuerse occasions in the old testament appointed that euer he appointed any or made any mention of any for the dead we would learne of Chrysostome euen therefore to say vnto him you see into what great absurdities men fall when they will not follow the Canon of the Scripture Homil 58. in Genesin and with Augustine though he were an Angel because of a matter of so great importance he speaketh without warraÌ„t either out of the old testameÌ„t or new he would boldly hold him accursed Contra literas petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. But to auoide this I know because in a cause so gainefull for you you will not seeme to bee altogither destitute of Scripture the bookes of the Machabees euen to help you at a pinch in this case in spite of all good antiquity and trueth shall be Canonicall Scripture and Iudas Machabeus fact 2. Mach. 12. must be vrged not onely as a lawfull fact but as a president to warrant your offering and sacrificing to relieue soules in purgatorie And yet in very deede when you haue alleadged this fact of his neuer so much you shall finde your dealing herein as voide of credit out of the Scriptures of God as before For first certaine it is that these bookes are none of the Canon of the old testament as you know well enough Origen apud Eusebium lib. 6. c. 24. Athanasius in Synopsi Cyril Hierosolymitanus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nazianzene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hierom. in prologo Galeato Gregorius magnus libro 19. Cap. 17. vpon Iob the councell of Laodicea and diuerse others haue determined whose iudgements are inuincibly confirmed by the
AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN DE ALBINES NOTABLE DISCOVRSE AGAINST heresies as his frendes call his booke compiled by THOMAS SPARK pastor of Blechley in the County of Buck. And I heard a voice from heauen saying Come out of her my people that yee be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receaue not of her plagues Revelat. 18. vers 4. Put your selues in aray against Babylon rounde about all yee that bende the bowe shoote at her spare no arrowes for shee hath sinned against the Lord. Ierem. 50. vers 14. ACADEMIA OXONIENSIS SAPIENTIAE ET FELICITATIS Printed at Oxforde by IOSEPH BARNES Printer to the Vniversitie 1591. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE ARTHVRE LORD GREY OF WILTON Knight of the most honourable order of the Garter his especiall good Lord and Patrone Thomas Sparke Wisheth all good perseuerance in Christian courage and constancy in the profession and furtherance of Gods sincere truth with all other ornaments of true nobility to Gods glorie our comfort and his owne heart good contentation nowe and euer ALthough Right Honourable when I had first perused this treatise of Iohn de Albines I foūd it thorow out a most bitter inuectiue a malitious declamation written onely of purpose to deface disgrace amongst the simple both our religion the ministers professors thereof yet finding withal as I did as anie indifferent man that reads it shal that neither for matter nor manner of writing there is any newe thing of any importance in it which hath not beene before euer this discourse of his sawe the light oftē that far more substantially vrged by some other of that side therefore which hath not also heretofore been as oftē fully effectually answered by some or other of ours I not only iudged this to be the reason when it hauing now been amōgst vs in english these 16. or 17. yeares none hitherto had vouchsafed it any further particular answere but also though vrged as your Honour knoweth to frame vnto it a speciall direct answere I could yet hardly be brought to thinke it necessary so basely I esteemed of it to aford it any other answere then either a fewe marginal notes that whē I first red it I bestowed vpō it or frō point to point as it were in a table to haue shewed the reader where and by whom he might read the same thing long ago often obiected on the one side answered by the other which might haue bene in one sheet of paper very well dispatched Howbeit in the end calling to minde what your Lordship tolde me concerning the opinion that our poore seduced cuntrimen seeme secretly to haue amōgst thēselues of it as you learned by one of their owne speeches had thereof vnto your selfe in acquainting you first with the booke and marking how not onely by publishing it in english but also by entitling it both in the forhead ouer euery leafe a notable discourse against heresies they themselues haue plainely shewed that they haue it in no base account finding it also since to be the iudgement of a certaine learned man of auncient and long experience euen of our owne side now this last yeare published in print that the hauing of this very booke so long in secret amongst them vnanswered hath bene one great cause of the apostasy of so many yong mē as of late yeares in this our cuntry haue reuolted from the truth to popery at the last I resolued with my selfe though I know that whē I had done what I could herein that I should be foūd to haue said litle or nothing not said writtē aswel before by some one or other of our side that yet your Lordships request made vnto me to answere it as fully and directly as I coulde when you first shewed me the booke how you came by it was is such as that both of duty to your selfe particularly for sundry causes to the church of Christ generally for that by this means many may see togither an answere to that which otherwise in great part either they might chance neuer to hit of in any other wryter of ours or else be driuen to search more those further then it was likely they would or could I was bound to satisfy in as good sort as any way conueniently I could Hauing therefore encouradgement by these reasons to take it in hand hauing now by Gods grace finished it in maner as you see I present the same vnto your Honour as an vndoubted token of my dutifull affection towards you beseeching you not onely to take the paynes as your leasure serueth you to peruse it ouer your selfe but also desyring you to bee vnto it such a patrone as that it comming abroade thus by your prouocation it may haue your best protection and countenaunce to passe vp and downe openly and boldly both in the veiw of frendes and foes vnto it There was prefixed before Jhon de Albines book vvhich your honour deliuered me a long preface to the reader made as it should seeme by the publisher thereof in english and there was annexed vnto it in the later ende an offer of a catholicke as hee is there termed to a learned protestant consisting of two and twenty demaunds and six signes of false prophets heretiques and schismatiques the preface I haue aunswered and the answere thereunto I haue placed next vnto my aunswere vnto Albines booke it selfe somewhat also I haue annexed that answere of mine to his booke finished in the latter ende to shewe the vanitie and childishnesse of those things which the author hath vttered in the application of those six signes to vs but to that which hee hath written concerning those two and twenty demaunds I haue said nothing And indeed because otherwise the booke was growen farre greater then I imagined at the first it woulde I haue not at all inserted that offer nor anie part thereof The reason of my not medling at all with those two and twenty demaunds and not troubling this my booke at all with anie part of that offer is that Doctor Fulke long agoe hath aunswered those demaundes and that also nowe of late Master Crowley hath at large aunswered both them and that which is added concerning those signes Doctor Fulkes answere thereunto maie bee had vnder the title of an aunswere of a Christian protestant to the proude Chalenge of a popish Catholicke and it is prefixed commonly before his booke written in confutation of Allens of Purgatorie Indeede concerning the six signes hee saieth nothing not because of any greater matter in them then in the rest but because at the first they were not published with the other The demaunds though hee haue aunswered shortly according to his manner yet so sharpely and effectuallie hee hath doone it that if the Chalenger were a man of his worde hee continued not long after a popish Catholicke Master Crowleys aunswere to the whole offer worde for worde as it was annexed
to John de Albines booke is extant vnder the tytle of a deliberate aunswere to a rash offer c. and it vvas printed by Iohn Charlewoode in London 1588. They both haue vvith their aunswere set downe the words of the offerer The trauels of these two men haue eased both me this booke of mine of medling any further then I haue sayed with that Chalenger and the rather because since hee had his first aunswere we neuer yet heard that hee had either skill or will to replie I might well ynough considering the largenesse and sufficiency of Master Crowleys answere thereunto haue omitted that vvhich I further haue sayed to aunswere his six signes not touched by Doctor Fulke but that vvhat I haue vvritten thereabout vvas written before I sawe Master Crowleys answere and that I thought it not amisse to let it stande that so betvvixt vs three the vvhole thus might bee tvvyse aunswered Though it were Master Crowley vvho as I noted before in the first leafe of his booke making aunswere to this offer that gaue that iudgement that Iohn de Albines booke had beene the cause of so much apostasy of late here amongst vs yet he as he there shows would not bestowe tyme in aunswering of it because supposing by the title it was written by a Frenchman therefore either in french or latine he thought that either Beza or some other french protestant had done it already sufficiently This when I redde first it caused me to be the slacker both in finishing and publishing this answere of mine Yet in the ende forasmuch as this was now amongst vs in English and therefore in his opinion had hurt so much and so many English persons and I could neuer learne of any certainty that in any other language it had beene directly answered by any I thought it needefull and the best way whether any such answere in any other tongue had beene made vnto it elsewhere or not to preuent as much as maie bee anie further such danger amongst vs by it to accompany such poyson with his fit counterpoyson that is such an English popish discourse with an English christian answere And the rather because howsoeuer by the title there is shew that the author was a Frenchman yet indeede I can hardly be perswaded that he was so For his publisher in English taking leasure as he hath to trouble his reader with a long tedious and friuolous preface hath not therein so much as secretly once insinuated vnto vs in what language the author wrote it yea he hath not once meÌ„tioned any traÌ„slation of it either by himselfe or any other the consideration whereof together with sundry phrases and matters conteined in the booke makes me rather thinke that some of our owne fugitiues English Iesuits or seminary priests indeede haue made it then any such Archdeacon of Tolosa in France as is pretended But howsoeuer it be in this respect it is not much materiall and therefore I haue not beene herein curious for these my reasons notwithstanding in all this my answere vnto him I frame my speech as to the author whose name it beares And howsoeuer I may doubt of his person and cuntrey of this I am certaine whosoeuer he were French or English the sonne of that bondwoman Ismael was neuer cunninger in persecuting the son of the freewoman Isaac with scoffes mocks then the author thereof was by the same meanes to doe what might be done to vex and grieue vs. Whosoeuer he was the right popish vaine spirit of writing he had For in so short a peece of worke I am perswaded by that you haue viewed him ouer together with this answer of mine your Lordship will be of opinioÌ„ that neuer any of that factioÌ„ weÌ„t beyond him in shameful begging alwaies the things most in questioÌ„ in subtle slipping froÌ„ the matters vndertakeÌ„ to proue into other more easy for him not in question in false quoting abusing the testimonies which he alleadges or in barrennes of matter or methode in such copy of swelling bragging and triumphing words Sure I am for my owne part though I know these be the common ornaments of popish writers that I neuer redde any whose book coÌ„sisted so wholy of these as this of his But to leaue him as hee is whosoeuer he was and to returne vnto your Lordship once againe I dedicate and offer this my poore labour vnto your honourable view protection which I doe not because the truth of god which I haue therein taught and defended standeth neede of the patronage of man For god the author thereof can and will defende and protect that though al the great meÌ„ in the world should band themselues against it but for diuers and sundry other reasons iustly me mouing thereunto One is which I haue touched already that of right the dedication hereof appertayneth to you because I had neuer taken it in hand but by your Lordships motion perswasion An other is that you since my comming to the place where I am for these eleuen years last past haue alwaies been yet are a most louing fatherly patrone to my ministry mee and mine by which right though that former reason had not beene your honour may worthily chalenge not onely in this but also in all other such poore fruites of mine growing from me thus nourished and cherished vnder your Lordshippes patronage greater interest then this which I offer you nowe herein But if neither of these two reasons had been yet you being the man you are that is by the grace goodnesse of God as far as you are knowen which is very farre amongst the godly and truly religious a man by birth honourable for martiall prowesse more and for giftes of sounde learning religion and vertue most of of all to be honoured and esteemed euen that would haue drawen me though otherwise I had been a meare stranger vnto you by this means to haue sought to haue testified my duetifull and hartie good affection towardes you For pietie ioyned with Christian nobilitie hath been the auncieÌ„t cause why the godly learned in auncient times haue dedicated their works to such as they haue iudged truly qualified therewith doubtlesse therby both the better to encourage them to whom they dedicated their labours to proceede and goe on in the good course they had begun and thereby to prouoke others to imiâ—ate their good exaÌ„ple that the like honourable opinion may by such also bee conceaued of them likewise when occasion should serue to their comfort testified publickely of them in the church of God What else mooued Ambrose to dedicate his bookes of fayth and the spirite to Gratian the Emperour What else caused Lactantius to dedicate his diuine instituâ—â—ons to Constantine or what else enduced the holy â—uangelist S. Luke to dedicate his historie of the â—ctes of the Apostles to noble Theophilus It was â—oubtlesse great honour vnto these men in their â—imes in the churches of Christ
word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
least after this that Priests had wiues begat childrē as other men And none of any learning are ignorant that al these sturs about this matter notwitstanding Christiā Bishops ministers in al other quarters of the world vnder the other Patriarches frō the beginning vnto this day haue bene are maried beget childrē also after they are entred into the ministry This also is as wel knowen of the learned that not onely particular learned men holy fathers as I noted before others but also sūdry coūcels where multitudes of such fathers haue met haue writen decreed to withstād contrary the going forward of this Antichristiā ordināce Yea they thēselues are not ignorāt hereof as it appears by sundry things set downe both in their text and glosse dist 81.84 elswhere in their Canon law For in the 28. distinctiō is noted a decree of the councell of Gangra which was about 300. yeares after Christ whereby he is by the authority of that councell anathematized that shall for his mariage put difference betwixt a maried ministers ministry and another and therefore abstaine from communicating with him and there also is cited a canon fathered of the Apostles whereby he is accursed that puts away his wife for Religion sake And in the sixth generall councell held at Constantinople these thinges are remembred with other and therefore there it was decreed Tom. Conc. 2. cap. 13. that he shall be deposed that after that should go about to debar Priests or deacons either of mariage or of the vse of their wiues yea after ordination and there also further it was enacted that if they themselues being ordred should vnder pretence of piety put away their wiues that they shall therefore be excommunicate and yet this was 680. yeares after Christ Moreouer Hierom speaking of his time saith that then plurum sacerdotes habebant matrimonia that is most Priestes were maried aduersus Iouinianum libro 1. Tertullian himselfe was a maried man as it appeareth by his writing to his wife To holde that ministers may not mary Ignatius ad Philadelphenses saith comes of the deuill And Dionysius Corinthiacus writing to the Gnosians persuades their Bishop Pinitus not to impose an vnnecessary too heauy a burden of single life or chastity vpon the brethren as we reade in Euseb lib. 4. cap. 22. Lastly S. Bernard though he liued about the yeare 1120. which was a very corrupt time for this matter yet euen he in his sixty sixth sermon vppon the Canticles thus far concerning this point hath plainely written Take from the church honourable matrimonie the bed vndefiled saith he and thou fillest it with concubine keepers with incestuous persons with such as haue vncleane issues of seede flowing from them with wantons with Sodomites and all kind of vncleane persons But when the bright euidence of these allegations seeme to make them somewhat to bold downe their heads yet I know they haue this shift for their last refuge that they deny not but that such as haue been maried or at that presēt haue wiues may enter into the ministry but thē they must be such as voluntary will vow and performe a single life and so thence forth abstaine insomuch that they are so in loue with this shift that they say write as is to be seen in the Rhemish notes vpō the new testamēt that Pauls canons touching the being of such the husbāds of one wife are so to be vnderstood not so as that thē or after once he is minister he may continue the office of a husband towardes his wife and confidently they dare and doe brag that we neuer read of any other that maried or got children after they entred once into holy orders Wherin first the practise of the Greeke Church all other Churches but these in these parts of the world directly crosses them Againe let Pauls words in deliuering of his canons cōcerning the qualities that ministers ought to haue bee well considered and any man shall see that it is absurd so to vnderstād him that he requires that they should be so qualified only de praeterito for the time past not rather especially for the time present and to come Seeing they are so cōfident in this that none maried euer or begot children after they were ministers let them tell mee of whom Peter had his daughter Petronella of whō their owne Croniclcs speake so much had he her not of a lawful wife And if it be true that we read that in the persecutiō vnder Domitian she was of such florishing yeares that then Flaccus a noble Roman county would haue had her to wife the time betwixt that and Peters entring vpon his Apostleship being at the least fifty fiue yeares after Christ by all likelihoode shee was got after hee was an Apostle And well might it bee for it being euident that Christ had taught them that vnlesse it were for fornication no man should forsake his wife Math. 19. and therefore that Paul hath noted that the brethren of the Lord and Cephas did cary vp and downe in the execution of their Apostleshippes their wiues being also conuerted aswell as themselues and therefore sisters 1. Cor. 7. taking maintenance for themselues then as they went that sometime in that perigrinatiō of theirs in the discharge of their office this Petronella was borne For it being euidēt by the Gospell of Math. 8. that Peter had a wife and by their owne stories that shee was a liue a little before his death at Rome with him that he counted not his Apostleship fornicatiō that neither he would leaue his wiues cōpany take other women with him nor that she came to Rome rather in the cōpany of other men thē of him her owne husband too too grosse and absurd is it with them to thinke that he the rest of the Apostles that had wiues forsooke their wiues quite and went vp and downe rather after the popish maner accompanied with other women Their translating and peruerting the order of Paules words a woman a sister will not defend their interpretation for he placeth his wordes thus a sister a wife where in the later place it is absurd the Greek word being that which sometime standeth generally for a woman sometime for such a woman as is also a wife to take it in the former sence for then therein there were a needlesse tautology for there is no sister but shee is a woman also But to leaue Peter with his wife and daughter what can they say to Socrates who in his fift booke and twentieth one Chapter of his story writeth that omnes praesbyteri illustres that is all renouned ministers in the East and Bishops also if they will no law compelling them may obstaine from their wiues for not a fewe of them whiles they are Bishops beget childrē of their lawfull wiues Historiae tripartitae lib. 9. ca. 38. Againe the 10. canon of the Ancyran
the condition of most of them or else if they did it in steade of feeding the people with the milke of Gods word which onelie Saint Peter warrants to bee without deceit 1. Pet. 2.2 they fed them with vaine dreames fansies tales and traditions of men For these onely are the grounds of that which is properly now the Romish Religion And in very deede when they were ordered their especiall businesse appointed for them was to sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which is a thing not onely beside the office of anie true minister of Christ but also directly contrarie both to their office and Christs also For they by warrant expressely from the canonicall scriptures are to teach their people that Christ himselfe in his owne person once for all when hee dyed for the redemption of man offered the sacrifice that for both quicke and deade soly and wholy fully and effectually must serue the turne for euer and that in offering this propitiatory sacrifice he is an euerlasting Priest and may haue no successour either to offer another sacrifice as though this were not sufficient or to offer this againe as though hee had not himselfe offered it well enough Besides herein commission is giuen them directlie to peruert Christes institution of the sacrament of his bodie and bloud For whereas by the right vse thereof thereby should bee offered vnto man the bodie broken and bloud shed of Christ for him to bee fed on and receiued by him to saluation by their commission and intention herein they offer these thinges to God the father Further if wee consider their reading vnto the people all in an vnknowen tongue their praying to Saints and Angels their praying for the dead their blasphemous imagination that they by breathing a set number of wordes vpon a wafer cake make it very Christ and other their superstitious and magicall incatations and coniurations of water oyle salt palmes and other creatures these beeing so directly contrary to the word of God as they bee whatsoeuer here Albine hath sayed of them wee may most iustlie and truely aduoutch them to bee right Priestes of Antichrist and consequentlie no right Priestes of Christ But seeing hee will needes so indefinitely and generallie pronounce his sentence That their Bishops and Priestes bee right Bishops and Priests to leaue these generall obiections and reasons against them and to come to some particuler examples first I would faine knowe of him whereas there haue beene a twenty three scismes at least in the Papall see sometime two sometime three sometime foure all at once contending that they were right Popes which of these was alwaies hee that for the time was to be accounted the right Bishop And if neuer but one of them yea sometimes none of them were right and therefore they were driuen to depose and suppresse them and to set vp a newe they all during their times hauing had manie followers and many were made Bishops and Priests by them and so successâ—uelie from these infinite others haue had their consecration and orders how can wee count these right Bishops and Priestes that were made by such as had no right to make any or how shall we seuer them that if they fetch their pedegrees haue had their originall from such from those that are descended from them that were made by the right Popes This nutte will trouble the whole Church of Rome to cracke But to deale plainely and particularly what can he or any of them vnlesse they be disposed to be conuinced of wraÌ„gling by a cloud of witnesses say for Ioan the eighth that in the ende proued her selfe openly in a solemne procession to bee a harlot by her fruitfulnes for Christopher Sergius Laudo Iohn the 11.12 13. all Popes in a rowe and yet especiallie aduanced vnto and kept in that dignity by their concubines and harlots for Siluester the second and a number of his successours who were promoted by Nicromancy and poisoning their predecessours or for Hildebrand after called Gregorie 7. who the same euening that his predecessour was dead thrust into the place not one Cardinall subscribing to his election rather euen by force then by any meanes else Boniface the eightth got the place by cosening Caelestine his predecessour by the sound of a voice through a tronke through the wall of his chamber Boniface the ninth was chosen Pope by the Cardinalles at Rome and yet as I saied before when they chose him hee was but twentie yeares olde he could neither write nor sing nor vnderstand his latin tongue Balthazar de Cossa Cardinall through feare at Bononia draue the Cardinals to refer the nomination of the Pope whom there they were about to chuse to himselfe who by and by chose and set vp himselfe Sixtus the fourth builded a famous stewes at Rome of both kindes as Agryppa writeth of him and witnesse Wesselus Groningensis hee graunted an indulgence to the family of S. Lucia that for the three hoate monethes in the yeare they might vse the sinne not to be named The like Indulgence graunted Pope Alexander the sixth to a Spaniard Petrus Mendoza Cardinall of Valentia so to abuse his base sonne Marques Sanatensis MoÌ„strous are the incests adulteries Sodomitries that stories report of Paul the 3. And Iulius the 3. his Sodomitrie especially with one Innocentius whiles he was Cardinall at Bononia whoÌ„ therefore hee made being still but a very boy Cardinal when he was Pope is in the stories reported very ill of And the rather that which in this respect is writen of him should seeme to be true because in his time there was one HieroÌ„ Mutius set vp publickely in bookes to defende certaine filthie and lothsome amarous verses writen by one Camillus Oliuus companion to the Cardinal of Mantua to one Hanibal Coliuus that in his time IohaÌ„nes Casa Archbishop of Beneuentum Deane of the chaÌ„ber Apostolicke and the Popes Legate in the dominioÌ„s of Venis wrote in the commendation of that filthy fact of Petrus Aloysius Paulus 3. his sonne with Cosmus Cherius Bishop of Fane and that with the applause and liking of that time Now what Will Albine say for all these things that these were right Popes Bishops and Cardinals right and seemely they maie be to serue the whoar of Babilon otherwise such can neuer be right Bishops and Priests to serue the Lord Iesus But if neither that which he hath saied concerning their comming to their places by the ordinary way nor this vaunt of his that their Bishops and Priests be right Bishops and Priests can doe him any good yet it may be he hopeth some credit will growe vnto them in that he hath saied they haue their places vy right successioÌ„ Indeede succession and the deriuation of it without interruption downe froÌ„ the Apostles especially in their line of Popes is a thing that such as he brag much of saying that that they haue we haue not that therfore their Church the ministers thereof
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
quickelie forsake your popery and ioyne with vs. to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours standing to that that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught not to turne at euery blast Vpon this matter one * Lib. con haer Vincentius Lyrinēsis who florished aboue a thousand yeares agone he saith thus If anie mā perchāce demaund saying Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine b Yea and more then sufficient saieth he Marke he graunts the rules of the scripture to be sufficient how is then that true which your Andradius saieth the greatest part is left to tradition not writen sufficient of thēselues And what neede haue we thē of the authority of the Church He answereth For that saieth he that the secrets misteries of the holy Scriptures are such that euery mā doeth not vnderstand thē interprete thē after one sort but that of one place this mā that mā shal seeme to maintaine their opinions being cleane cōtrary one to another so that looke how many mē so many interpretations For one way it is interpreted by Nestorius another way by Arrius another way by Sabellius so forth according to diuers heresies that haue risen from time to time And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the trueth among so many errours to draw the c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule vnderstanding as he doth that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that sence which hath the consent of the Prophets Apostles and Catholique Church for no other sence we giue of the Scriptures right line of the Propheticall Apostolical interpretatiō according to the rule true sense of the Catholicke Church This is the learned opinion of this anciēt father Vincētius Lyrinensis The III. Chapter IN the 3 Chapter you say as little to the purpose as in the second For vnderstanding by the Church the true catholique Church indeede and not your late Synagogue of Rome falsely by you so named because neither it nor the faith thereof is vniuersall neither in respect of time nor person whatsoeuer you haue writen therein we confesse to be most true and sure we are it maketh more for vs then for you For we neuer denied the ministry of the true Church to be needefull according to Vincētius rule to finde out the true sence of the scriptures and certaine we are that we are farre better able to iustifie our interpretations thereby then you are yours and he liuing a 1000. years agoe as you write we boldely affirme that you shall neuer bee able to proue that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and pastours before or in his time taught the errours and heresies now taught by yours for the which wee account yours Antichristian And yet as in the former Chapter most beggerly you begged this principle that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith so here in this you begge this also that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church But you must vnderstand howsoeuer your owne frendes will giue you at your first asking both these that yet we will graunt you neither of them both And therefore writing as you would seeme purposely against vs you should not thus miserably alwaies haue begged them at our handes but by sound and iust proofe at least haue endeuoured to proue that you had iust right thereunto and then with some more honestie and credit might you haue gone on in this supposall that they are yours This also you must vnderstand that when it is in question which is the trueth of Religion yea euen in the fundamentall points as indeede it is betwixt you and vs it is alwaies also in question which is the Church of Christ For as both parts imagine they haue the trueth so will they perswade themselues that they are the true Church Your frendes also and all others must bee aduertised that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church of the doctours thereof least through too much simplicity they think streight that you haue al these things on your side because you haue them so much and so often in your mouthes For as Cyprian writeth Epist ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis the Nouations after the fashion of apes challenged vnto themselues the name of the Church and all other they called heretiques And we reade that in the time of Arius Macedonius and Donatus these heretiques accounted themselues the onely Christians and that the true Christians indeede were counted by them Homousians Macarians Caesarians and Caecilianists So doeth Tertullian de Prescrip aduersus haereticos testify that the heretiques did in his time So did the Donatists saieth August Contra Epist Parm lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist 161. and he writeth Cōtra Epist Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees there was great brags of the trueth Bernard also in his 66. sermon vpon the Cāticles speaking against certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage and superstitiously absteined from meates yet saieth that they gloried that they alone were the body of Christ bragging also that they were the successours of the Apostles and Apostolicke the Church of Christ And indeede wee finde nothing more vsuall with the ancient hereticks then to boast that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their sides And very vsuall we finde it also with them to stand much vpon fathers in the defence of themselues and their heresies For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action that Eutiches bragged that he had reade Cyprian and Athanasius yea that then and there he confidently saied for his defence that he had so learned of his ancient predecessours and that he had beene baptized in that faith had liued and hoped to die in it And we reade in the 4. Action of the same councell that Carosus an Eutichian heretique saied stoutly I beleeue thus according to the exposition of the 318. fathers and so was I baptised Dioscorus also in the 1. Act of that Councell cried and saied I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyrill on my side I go not from them in anie thing I am cast out with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrines I haue their testimonies euen set downe in their bookes for me And as we reade in August contra Cresconium the Donatist 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17. he cited for himselfe Cyprian and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretique against whom August wrote vsed to alleadge for his defence the councell of Ariminum and therefore Augustine saieth vnto him Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice against thee neither oughtest thou to obiect that of Ariminum against me 3. booke 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it these things considered for you and your fellowes then to carie away the simple vnder the bare titles of Catholique trueth Catholique Church
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
oft in this your booke and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader and vnlearned Christian in hand that before Luther there were none of our religion that haue so condemned your Church and religion as we doe I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one that shall read this my answere to see your vanity and impiety though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter Wherefore to go on in the course of times though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe and at the heighest that euer she was this latter 400 yeares yet we are able to shew that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time and that in sundry places that haue ioyned with vs against you that therefore there is no such newnesse or strangenes in our religion a d doings as you would make the ignorant beleeue For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours who euer since ioyne with vs in a number of thinges against you as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 but also by a large booke writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy euen as we doe but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church And as it appeareth in ancient record in the Church of Herford wherein 29 of the Articles wherein they differ from the Church of Rome are set downe they ioine not only with vs in this point in seperating thēselues frō the Romish Church in denying the popes supremacie which is the very foundation of your Church and religion but also in denying purgatory and masses for the dead in holding it lawfull for their ministers to enioy the benefit of matrimony in not vsing any priuate masse in not denying the cup to any that receaue in not ministring the communion in priuate houses in not vsing extreme vnction and in sundry other points And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late extant in print both in greeke and latin to Chitreus and other Germans it euidently appeareth that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō and that great hope there is that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest Besides these Easterne churches euē here in these westerne parts euident it is that there haue beene many great learned and famous persons with innumerable followers at all tymes from age to age in these latter 400 yeares when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest that euer it was which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion For Fredericke the second as diuers other Emperours had beene before him as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne and Constantine the 6 in the East and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time contending against them to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them about the yeare 1260 as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina Sabelicus and others declare And 20 years before that Krātzius testifieth in his history that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia that the Pope was an heretique his clergy Symoniakes and generally they all seducers of the people Ten yeares after that florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ a Spaniard who taught that Sathā had thē seduced the world that the faith thē taught was but such as deuils had meaning belike a bare historicall faith that the pope led men to hell that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ that masses were naught not to be saied for the dead c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris who went as farre as Arnoldus applying the same Scriptures which concerne Antichrist as we doe to the pope and his clergy and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique and his bookes burnt by your popish rout And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also tooke this Williams part against the pope wrote a booke in his defence In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes a Minorite directly preached the pope to be Antichrist and Rome great Babylon and therefore he was burnt after he was dead 30 yeares and more before this Robert Grosthead a famous learned man and Bishop of Lincolne for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three was a great withstander of the popes tyranny and three dayes before his death hauing conference with his clergy he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations that the pope was Antichrist and his doings Antichristian King Philip of France about the yeare one thousand three hundred was a great withstander of the Supremacy which now the Pope challengeth and a resister in his dominions of sundry of his enormities and William Nagareta and the prelates of France then ioyned with their king against the pope Grosthead this king Philip and his clergy as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England in the yeare 1346 despised the popes curse appealed frō him to God There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight In the Extrauagants we reade that Marsillius Patauinus Iohannes de Ganduno Michael Chesenas Petrus de Carborea and Iohannes de Poliaco all great learned men were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy and other errours of that Church of his about the yeare 1326. There were thē also many learned mē more that disputed wrote against his Supremacy which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him as William Occam Luitpoldus Andreas Landanensis Vlricus Hangenor the Emperors treasurer and others Dante 's liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred wrote against the Pope the orders of religious men and the Doctours of the Decrees saying that these were three great enemies to the trueth he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe that he was the whoar of Babylon In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis Andreas de Castro and Burdianus taught as we doe against your doctrine of freewill and merites Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine preached openly against your doctrine
of mans merites and praying to Saints c. And Franciscus Petrarcha florishing about that time in his ninteenth twentieth Epistle calleth the seate of the papacy the whoar of Babylon the temple of heresie and treachery and in such sort describeth it both at Rome and at Avinion where then the Pope sate that he as it ther seemeth coūted it the greatest euil that can befall a man to be made pope Iohannes de rupe scissâ about 10. yeares after in the yeare 1340 was so sore a rebuker of the abhominations of the cleargy that he was therefore imprisoned he also compared the pope to a bird richly clad with other birdes feathers yet so as that for the pride of that birde he prophecieth that the time would come when the other birdes would call for their feathers againe and so make him know himselfe Cōradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis about this time preached 24 yeares as it appeareth in the Recordes of Otho bishop of that City that the masse was no propitiatory sacrifice either for the quicke or the dead And within three yeares after the booke called Paenitentiarius Asini was writen wherein the Pope is resembled to the Woulfe the Cleargy to the Foxe and the Laitie to the poore Asse In the yeare one thousand three hundred and fifty Gerrhardus Ridder wrote a book called Lachrima Ecclesiae wherein he vehemētly inueigheth against begging Friers Michael Chesenas before mentioned amongst other things preached that the pope was Antichrist and Rome Babylon Hee had many followers whereof I read some were burned as Iohannes de Castilone Franciscus de Arcatarâ and he himselfe beeing Prouincial of the Grey Friers was depriued and condemned in the yeare one thousād three hūdred twenty two or there abouts And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353 I read that two Frāciscane Friers were burnt at Auinion whereof the one was one Iohn de Rochetalayda otherwise called Hayabolus witnes Premonstrat and Henry Herford Who as Henry of Herford writeth preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6 in the yeare 1345 that he was commanded by God to preach that Rome was Babylon and that the pope and his Cardinals were very Antichrist and beeing brought before the pope for it to his face he boldly did aduouch the same Brigit whom you your selues haue made a Saint about the yeare 1370 in her booke of Reuelations was a most bitter rebuker of the pope and his cleargy and so likewise was Katherina Senensis 2 yeares after as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his story terming the pope a murderer of soules a spiller piller of the flocke of Christ saying that they were more abhominable thē Iewes more cruel thē Iudas more vniust thē Pilate worse then Lucifer himselfe And the former of thē plainly prophesied that their kingdō should be thrown downe as a milstōe into the deepe that the clergy had turned al Gods cōmandemēts into these two words Da pecuniā giue money Mathias Parisiēsis a Bohemiā about the year 1370 wrot a large book of Antichrist prouing him to be come that the pope was he the Locusts in the Apocalyps he saith are his hypocritical clergy About this very time Greg. the 11 sent a bul to the Arch-Bishop of Prage stirring him vp thereby to persecute one Melitzius and his followers who is charged in that bull to haue preached that the Pope was Antichrist and to haue had congregations following him As Brushius writeth in the yeare 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia for the doctrine of the Waldēses holding also that the Pope was Antichrists and Massens recordeth that there were burnt about the same time 140. for the same cause in the prouince of Narbon and the same authour testifieth that in the yeare 1210. 24 suffered at Paris and that the next yeare there were 400. burned for the like cause 80. beheaded Prince Armericus hanged and the Lady of the castle stoned to death Houeden also noteth that about these times there were great numbers put to death in France for this cause of Religion Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominicke Frier was put to death at Hiddelberge in the yeare 1330 for withstanding the Popish doctrine There is an olde monument of processe against 44◠persons for the same cause in Pomerania Marchia and places there about in the yeare 1391. And certaine it is that if the recordes and statutes of all countries in these westerne partes should bee searched euen thereby would it appeare that the number of those that haue gainesaied the Pope his proceedings in the time of his greatest florishing and cruelty ' haue beene from time to time infinite how much greater then is it likely was the number of them that informer times when hee was not growen to that power to vexe the seruants of god as he hath beene for these last 300. or 400. yeares haue professed the trueth boldely against him Thus are we come to Iohn Wicklifes time who florished here in England about the yeare of the Lord 1372 and yet I haue for the auoiding of too too much tediousnes omitted the names of a number of famous men that haue also withstoode poperie and ioyned with vs in sundrypointes against them in those times that I haue run thorow as namely Alcuinus Archbishop of Canterburie directly with vs against them in the matter of reall presence Aelfricus Ioachim Abbot of Calabria Arnoldus Brixianus Almericus a learned Bishop in Innocents time the third iudged a◠heretique for teaching as we doe against images Beringaiius Reymundus Earle of Tolossa Lord Peter de Cogneriis Eudo Duke of Burgandie the Archbishop of Armah and infinite others I might also here againe haue remembred that with H. Mutius writeth of an 100 burnt in one day in Alsatia vnder Innocent the 3 in the yeare 1215 when Antichrist in the Lateran councell bringing in the new and monstrous article of Transubstantiation shewed himselfe to be euen growen to his highest degree of iniquity But to let these passe and to proceede Iohn Wicklife as it is famously knowen was with vs against you in the most and weightiest things betwixt you and vs in controuersie and therefore in your councell of Constance you condemned him and caused his dry and rotten bones to be taken vp againe and burned Whiles he liued he had many great learned men here in England that ioyned with him as namely Nicholas Herford Philip Repington Iohn Ashton and Laurence Redeman and so many followers had he and they and hee had such fauour and protection especially of the Duke of Lancaster that then was that though your prelates here in England vexed and molested them what they could yet they and their fauourers in short tyme grew to that strength and multitude that by the yeare 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbishop of Canterbury certified the pope that they all could not be suppressed they were so many but by force of warre
hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
thing that we holde teach and preach as much as you You doe therfore but abuse your reader in going about to make him beleeue that we reiect your Bishops onely for their lewde liues whereas the thing especially that we condemne both you and them for is your Antichristian doctrine It is well that when you haue saied what you can for your line of Popes yet the consideration of the oft interruptiōs of their succession by schismes and otherwise you are glad in the ende to giue vs this note that when you talke of succession of Bishops and pastours you meane not onely them but all other Bishops and pastours of your Church in whom the succession hath beene continued whensoeuer it was interrupted in the other For hereby in effect you doe acknowledge that you meane not nor thinke it wisedome to leane too much to the successiō of them least they let your building fall Wherein I preferre you yet before Stapleton in that herein the trueth of the manifold interruptions of their succession seemeth to haue preuailed more with you then with him For he writing against Doctor Fulke of this matter of succession though hee saieth hee will not holde succession in the same places and sees to haue continued generally yet in this particuler line of Popes onely hee thinketh that safely he may You are also to be commended for acknowledging dissentions to haue beene betwixt your Popes and Antipopes themselues and in leauing them without defēce for their lewd liues ambition and negligence euen to answere for themselues For indeede as it cannot be denied but that these thinges most monstrously haue beene found in very many of them so you could not haue had any honesty in smothing of their faults Yet you go some thing to far in saying that their dissentiōs were not preiudiciall to the vnity of faith held before For how could it be that one part of the world ioyning with the Pope the rest with his Antipope or Antipopes it being an article now of your Catholique faith Boniface 8. de maioritate obed Cap. 1. vnder paine of damnation to be beleeued that al soules must submit themselues to your Pope as to the Supreame head of the Church but that these for many yeares togither banning cursing each others faction thereby the vnity of faith was not onlie troubled but maruellously broken The IX Chapter NOw seeing that we haue yeelded you a full accompt of our vocation to the ministery if we may be so bold I thinke it is no great presumption to demande the like of yours a Caluin neuer thus reasoned therefore you play the papist with him that is you bely him For euen as Caluin hath heretofore called vpon vs to haue vs proue that we are the Children of God or otherwise he would absolutelie affirme that God cannot be called the authour of our vocation to the ministery We say likewise that if you doe not shew the like of yours you shal giue vs leaue although it be against your willes to saie that yours commeth not from God but from the procurement of his aduersarie Tertullian b Wee know hee spoke against such heretiques as you Papists bee who as you know aboue 1200 yeares agone speaking against such as you are in his booke de praescrip haeret doeth write these words Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum euoluent ordinem Episcoporum suorum per successiones abinitio decurrētem Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae cursus suos deferunt sicut Romanorum Clementem Episcopum à Petro ordinatum id proinde vtique coeteri exhibeant quos ab Apostolis in Episcopalibus constitutos Apostolico semine radices habeant c Here either is ignorance or wilfull corruptiō of this authours meaning dris◠You see well by these wordes how that Tertullian doeth continue with the succession of the Pastours the which he doeth affirme to be necessarie saying that you and such as you are ought not to be receiued to the ministerie of the Church nor to teach the people contrary to the ecclesiatical order except that you shew the antiquitie of your table And it is necessary saieth he that you reckon your Pastours and Bishops by order how they haue succeeded one after another for this is the waie that the Churches doe maintaine their right The saied Tertulliā doth ground his similitude vpon the custome of the Ciuil gouernance For when that these that are Princes or Lords doe suruaie their lands the subiects are bound to shew what landes they holde of them setting it all forth by accompt shewing by what tenure they hold their copie and whether it be demean◠or free holde comming by inheritance or bought they ought likewise to name him that had it before and by their owne title to ouerthrowe all other persons that maie make claime vnto it a Not yet nor euer will you be able According to this patterne and order we haue giuen you accompt of our inheritāce although we were not bound to it setting before your eies the similitude of Salomon by whom our Sauiour Iesus Christ is represented That same Salomon doeth giue the sheepe that runnes astraie counsaile to set his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepheards to follow their flocke vntill he come to the place where Christ was nailed on the Crosse at noon daies The which counsell as the most certaine according to Tertullian his opinion we doe follow thinking it sufficient to keepe vs firmely in the right and ancient Catholicke faith For we that are the sheep of Christ doe follow as touching our religion the steppes that our fathers led before vs and as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob Gen. 28. b Whatsoeuer you meane you can neuer deduce your religion so high for it hath beene a patching together long euen till of very late daies we mount by degree and degree I meane from yeare to yeare from age to age vntill that we come to S. Saturim S. Denice S. Marcial S Gratian which were those that did first teach the Catholicke faith in Tholose in Paris and to those of Guyenna and Lorayne and so consequently to all the rest of the Saintes that first did teach the Catholicke faith through all Christendome whom wee doe call in iudgement before God to defende that faith which they haue giuen vs from hand to hand they maie cal vpon the Apostles which sent them the Apostles maie direct themselues to Christ who by the mouth of his most louing Apostle doeth command vs to continue in that that was taught vs at the beginning 1. Iohn 2. And so wee shall continue and rest with the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost And if any bodie doeth come to teach vs anie other doctrine then that which hath bene taught vs at the beginning I doe not saie c No take heede of that for the booke of the Scriptures is your bane writen in booke but
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
needes be a monstrous mishapen thing in ioyning the Christians of these later daies with the Apostles without any betwixt and fosâ—â—ating as it were the feete of the body hard to the eares without any other members betwixt the one and the other And thus hauing framed this mery conceit in your owne heade you call vpon your frendes to laugh at it with you and so you proceede in telling vs that whiles we take this course we fly without wings and climbe without a ladder and despise the counsell of Salomon which after your maner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which you say you haue shewed you haue done To what purpose now is all this seeing in trueth neither we doe thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and vs neither haue you shewed any such succession of pastours downe from them to you continuing in your doctrine Truely to no other purpose can they serue but to expresse your owne ridiculous vanity Howbeit because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those that haue caught vs to deny your real presence in the sacrament and vpon a conceit in your owne fansie that you haue posed vs you haue growen to bee thus full of these swelling wordes of vanity and because I feare neither you nor many of your disciples will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you vnto for answere in that point yet haue hope that for your sake some of you may chauÌ„ce vouchsafe to reade this I will not sticke with you particulerly to satisfie your request a little further First therefore vnderstand that we haue learned to deny your kinde of reall presence of Christ himselfe the institutour of this Sacrament because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception Iohn 6.54 that whosoeuer eateth his flesh drinketh his bloud hath eternall life Whereas by the meanes of your doctrine it followeth because all that receiue this sacrament haue not faith but manie lacke it that it shall bee eaten of manie that shal be neuer the better by it but the worse We haue also further learned it of him in that in the same Chapter speaking of the eating of his body drinking of his bloud he drew his hearers from a grosse conceit of eating drinking him by their bodily mouthes by vsing of the word beleeueth in stead of eateth and drinketh ver 40.47 and cap. 7.38 by mentioning vnto them his ascention Iohn 6.62 lattly by saying vnto theÌ„ It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake vnto you are spirit life ver 63. This finally we haue learned of him saying If any shall say vnto you Lo here is Christ there is Christ beleeue it not Math. 24.23 by his continuing at the table when he first instituted and ministred it vnto his Apostles without alteration either of his place or forme Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke 22.1 Cor. 11. The Apostles euaÌ„gelists haue also taught vs to deny it in that they teach vs that he visibly asceÌ„ded into heauen that he shall so also come againe wheÌ„ he coÌ„meth froÌ„ thence c. Act. 1.11 especially seeing his comming to iudgement is called his secoÌ„d comming Heb 9.28 and vntil the restitutioÌ„ of all things it is saied by Peter the heaueÌ„s must coÌ„taine him Act. 3.21 The EuaÌ„gelists in laying downe vnto vs the story of his natiuity life death so prouing vnto vs that he was is a true and perfect maÌ„ encourage vs also least we should with the Marcionites other heretiques denie the trueth of his maÌ„hood coÌ„tantly to â—â—â—y your reall preseÌ„ce for the maintenance whereof you are driueÌ„ to fansy a nuÌ„ber of things quite contrary to the nature trueth of his maÌ„hood And lastly in that reciting the words of the institution they tel vs that Christ commanded that to be done in remeÌ„brance of him Luke 22.19 1. Cor. 11.24 there Paul saith v. 26. As often as ye shall eate this bread drink this cup ye shew the lords death till he coÌ„e which words plainly argu that though the sacrameÌ„t be both rightly ministresâ— receiued yet it inferreth not any such real preseÌ„ce as you ther imagâ—â— Now betwixt them vs we finde infinite places in writers of all ages that teach vs still to denie your reall presence but amongst many marke these for example TertulliaÌ„ in his 4. booke against MarcioÌ„ interpreteth these words Hoc est corpus meum thus that is to say This is a figure of my body Augustine against AdamaÌ„tus the Manichee c. 12. writeth that christ doubted not to say This is my body wheÌ„ he gaue a signe of his body vpoÌ„ the 3. Ps he saieth that Christ admitted Iudas to a baÌ„quet where he coÌ„meÌ„ded a figure of his body to his disciples vpoÌ„ the 98. Ps he saith yee shal not eat this body that yee see neither shall yee drinke that bloud which they shall shed that crucify me I haue coÌ„mended vnto you a certaine sacrament it being spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life In his 3. booke therfore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus This saying of Christ Except yee eate the flesh of the son of maÌ„ c. seemeth to coÌ„mand an heinous thing a wicked therefore it is a figure coÌ„maÌ„ding vs to be partakers of Christs passioÌ„ keeping in our minds to our great profit coÌ„fort that his flesh was crucified wouÌ„ded for vs. c. 16. he saith It is a miserable slauery of the soule to take the signes for the things signified in the same booke c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle he telleth vs that the similitude betwixt the signe the thing signified is the cause why the one beareth the name of the other in sacrameÌ„ts in his 57. questioÌ„ vpoÌ„ Leuitic he giueth vs this rule The thing that signifieth is woÌ„t to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth as Paul said The rock was Christ not it signified Christ but eueÌ„ as it had bene indeed which neuertheles was not Christ by substaÌ„ce but by signification So that his vsual doctrine is to teach vs in this sacrament to seeke christ in heaueÌ„ by faith thereby to make him present which otherwise is absent as you may read in his 50. tract vpon Iohn els where very often And with Augustine the rest of the fathers consent in this matter therefore nothing is more coÌ„moÌ„ with them then to call the outward part in this sacrament a signe figure similitude resemblance or representatioÌ„ as it appeareth in these places Chrysostom in his 83. Homil vpon Mat. Hierom in his 2. booke against IouiniaÌ„ Ambr. in his 4. booke of the sacraments c. 5. Basil in his lyturgy Ephr in his 4. booke against the impugners of Christs manhood by humane reason And Origen vpoÌ„ Leuit hom 7. teacheth vs that the letter
not be against himselfe Ma. 12. what were they to do els but according to that the God gaue theÌ„ and the places they had in vniuersities in the church to proceede to call the people yet froÌ„ those errors to the truth When fire shal take hold of a city or the enimy scale the wal in the night if the least burgesse shall giue an alaruÌ„ yea if it be but a straÌ„ger the watchmaÌ„ sleeping that should giue warning no maÌ„ would staÌ„d trifling in demanding by what title he did it but streight he will run to the water and to the wals and laie to his hands to preueÌ„t the mischiefe thanke him that gaue the warning And yet wheÌ„ the meÌ„ we speake of giue notice of a greater danger though it be as necessary to listen vnto them to be warned by them as the saluation of mens soules is yet they caÌ„not finde this wisdome and thankfulnes in men It should seeme by your standing thus precisely vpon the necessity of visible succession ordinary impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds in theÌ„ the god shal send to teach men or els they may not be heard that either you haue not red or els that you greatly disseÌ„ble your knowlege that God hath vsed the ministry of diuers persoÌ„s that haue wanted those to coÌ„uert nations to lay the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of churches to doe very much good For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist 1. booke and c. 10. Theodoret in his 1. book c. 23. report that a captiue maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospell amongst the IberiaÌ„s who being the meanes first to coÌ„uert the Queene the Queene coÌ„uerted the King he wtout any orders as you call them taught his people the Christian faith so begaÌ„ the church there It is also writeÌ„ by Ruff. lib. 1â— c. 9. by Theodoret in the 22. c. of his saied booke by Nicep in his 8. book c. 35 that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being â—â—yes by Meropius a philosoper and there taken and preserued aliue when he and the rest of his company were slain growing after into good credit and authority there were the first means of the sowing of the seede of the Gospell amongst the Barbarians in the further India to the profession and exercises whereof especially Frumentius and that not onely after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop but before euer by any he was ordeined either minister or bishop was a notable effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither and to drawe the people of that countrey it selfe Moreouer Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth in his sixte booke and 19. Chapter that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination certaine bishops being present which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault to Alexander bishop of Hierusalem and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea they defended themselues by alleadging diuers such famous examples as namely of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination Yea read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter and he will tell you that vnder Constantius Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria and that vnder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus Iulianus being then but monkes who in those dayes were not reckoned amongst Clarkes at all for vnto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes did publickely preach and confute heretiques And yet these examples I alleadge not that I would be authour to anie when an ordinarie calling may be had to despise that and to take vpon them that function of the Ministrie without that lawfull ordinary calling for that were to disturbe the peace of the Church and to open a gap to much disorder and inconuenience but to this end to make it appear that the Church of God in former ancient times hath not so precisely and curiously stood vpon these points of visible succession and ordination for the iustifying of ones preaching the Gospel at al times and in all places as you doe For doubtles there haue beene times and yet may be as after that great apostasie spoken of 2. Thes 2. in other great ruines of the Church when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke without either immediate locall or personall succession going before who as long as they preach but the trueth and otherwise the times be so corrupt that of them that haue authority ordinarily to call men to that busines such rather should be shut out generally then let into the ministrie are to be receiued heard and listened vnto as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himselfe The XIIII Chapter CAluin doeth alleadge to vs that the Apostles doe saie that no bodie ought to take vpon him the honour of the high priesthoode except he be called to it as Aaron was meaning by that to conclude that of our owne authority we haue vsurped the dignitie of Priesthood a And â—et to no purpose We haue answered him at large of our vocation by the succession of Pastours ioined with the imposition of handes I doe demande of him or of his if they can make any true answere to the like obiection You doe laie to our charge the all liues of our Popes and Bishops and the naughtinesse that you pretend to finde in our Preachers but all those inuectiues serue to no other purpose but to shew how you keepe b Nay you shall haue the bell both for that for prophane iering scoffing a learned schoole of railing the which preheminence we doe yeeld to you without any debate or processe for ye maie attribute that vnto your selues as your owne by right insteede of the imposition of hands which ye want But in one thing to my iudgment you are greatlie ouerseene and that is this c When you obserue this lawe your selues we wil learn of you Why doe ye not fill both sides of your booke in the one you set forth at large without omitting anie point of their ill doings al the naughtie lives of our Pastours and Bishops but the other sides of the leaues are emptie you should haue writen on them the holie liues of your Ministers succeeding one after an other this thousand and fiue hundred yeares When the Popes Bonifacius Gregorius did gouerne ill their Seats at Rome d I haue sufficiently answered this cap. 4. which were the good and holie ministers that did their duetie at Geneua When our Doctours did preach against God in times past in what part or vnder what sign were your Ministers lodged that did then preach the pure word of the Lord e Reasoned like your selues as though the Apostles neuer lawfully hid themselues from the fury of the persecuters if they did hide themselues they did not folow the pure word of the Lord the which you say is necessarie to know the true faithful beleeuers For Christ doeth saie Mat. 10. that hee that shal deny him before men him
hypocrisie And therfore the better altogither to preserue meÌ„ froÌ„ this vanity impiety he pronouÌ„ces mariage to be honourable the mariage bed to be vndefiled He. 13. And therfore Ignatius in his Epist to the PhiladelphiaÌ„s saith flatly that to say the coÌ„trary coÌ„meth of the diuel vpoÌ„ this grouÌ„d Dionysius Corinthiacus labours to perswade Pynitus the bishop of the GnosiaÌ„s as we read Eus l. 4. ca. 22. that he did not impose an vnnecessary too heauy a burdeÌ„ of single life vpoÌ„ the brethreÌ„ yea eueÌ„ your own Gratian could not dissemble or deny but that 300. years after Christ the couÌ„cel of GaÌ„gra pronouÌ„ced him accursed the would or should more refuse the ministry of one that is maried theÌ„ of one vnmaried the also there is an ancieÌ„t CanoÌ„ fathered vpoÌ„ the Apostles to the same end dist 28. Indeed it should seem that in ClemeÌ„t AlexaÌ„drinê° time which was about 200 year after Christ that there were some that theÌ„ begaÌ„ to vrge the single life of the ministers but he cals such proud braggers such as God wil resist shewing theÌ„ by many exaÌ„ples reasoÌ„s places of scripture the lawfulnes both of the mariage of such of the vse therof that the denying it theÌ„ was the plain doctrin of deuils spoken against by Paul 1. Tim. 4. Stro. 3. yet it was attempted againe as we read it was ofteÌ„ before that particulerly so in the first councell of Nice generally to bee established that men once entred into the ministery might neither marry nor yet accompany with their wyues maried before but there also it was so withstoode by one Paplinutius that they gaue ouer that their atteÌ„pt And consequently by that 〈◊〉 â—â—â—cel that which as some write was decreed before in the 〈◊〉 councels of Elybert and Arles to the contrary was so repeaâ—â—◠〈◊〉 weakned that thence forth it was thereby left free vnto ministers to accompany with their lawfull wiues as to other men 〈…〉 the sixt general councel held at Constantinople whatsoeuer had any where before that beene attempted to the contrary which was 680. yeares after Christ we finde restraint of their mariage so condemned that there it is decreed that it should be lawful for them to marrie and to enioy the company of their wiues and that whosoeuer would go about to debar them thereof should be deposed And in making of this decree the fathers in that councell assembled doe say that therein they haue followed the Apostles sincere Canons and the constitutions of holy men howsoeuer Epiphanius lib. 2. tom 1. contrary to all trueth of the story writeth that where such are admitted the sincere Canons be not kept and indeed this decree stands in force euer since vnto this day hath bene obserued in al the Churches vnder the patriarches of Constantinople Hierusalem Alexandria Antioch vnder Presbyter Iohannes in AEthiopia which are of far larger compasse then euer was the Roman Church in these westerne partes Indeed it seemeth by an Epistle writeâ—â—s some think by one Hulderick as others suppose by one Volusianus vnto Pope Nicolas to disswade him from restraining the cleargy of lawfull mariage that Gregory and some others before him as if we may beleeue the popish reporters Siricius in the Roman see had beene busie in making decrees to restraine them but yet that Gregory vpon the finding on a time of 6000 infantes heades in certaine ponds repented thereof and reuoked the same saying it is better they should marry theÌ„ to giue such occasioÌ„ of murder it should seeme that the Epistle was writen rather to Nicolas the second theÌ„ to Nicolas the first about the yeare 867. for then they beganne to be somewhat busie about the restraining of them Howbeit they were so resisted herein that before Pope Hildebrands tyme about the yeare 1070 or rather Pope Calixts time in the year 1120 this restraint of theirs tooke no great place For Aventinus in historia Boiorum lib. 5. speaking of a couÌ„cell of Hildebrand saieth that in that time priests opeÌ„ly had wiues and begat children as other ChristiaÌ„s as appeareth saieth he by sundry instruments wherein their wiues are specified as witnesses and that called honesto vocabulo presbyterissae that is by an honest name eldrisses And the 9 Canon of the 2. couÌ„sell of Turon held in the tyme of Pope Pelagius the first as witnesseth Caranza and the 14 as writeth Surius tom 2. conc And Henry HuÌ„tington in his 7 booke writeth that Anselme archbishop of Canterbury in his time which was about the yeare 1106. forbad the priests of England mariage as he saieth not forbid them before whereupon as he noteth within short time such grieuous coÌ„plaints were brought vnto him of their Sodomitry that he was enforced to make a law against that sin yet in the making of these lawes he dealt so fauorably that whereas to liue in mariage with a lawfull wife was punished with depriuation one conuict of Sodomitry was onely to be accursed with their ordinary excommunication vntill he repented got absolution which was easie enough to come by And thus in the iudgement of God most iustly they forsaking like Hypocrites the natural and lawful vse of mariage they were giuen ouer as Paul speaketh of the reprobate gentiles Rom. 1. to their owne filthy affections in that there was nothing more common then filthy fornication adultery amongst them or that in their cloysters they hauing left the natural vse of the woman one of them lusted towards another and man with man wrought filthines and so as he there saieth receiued in themselues such recompence of their errour as was meet These things considered no maruel though your gloser vpon the 84 distinction be inforced to confesse that olim tempore praeterito that is that in ancient and former times they were maried For by these testimonies and by that also which is set downe in that distinction it sufficiently appeares that your fashion herein is but of late deuised and publickly receiued amongst your own selues Your doctrine also of free wil howsoeuer it was then fauoured of the Pelagian heretiques yet it appears that it was in S. Augustines time asmuch misliked of him of the tru church of Christ as it is now of vs. For he saieth what is there so much presumed of the power of nature it is wouÌ„ded maimed vexed lost it staÌ„ds need of true confession not of a false defence de natura gratia Cap. 53. Further if you wil take pains to read him de gratia libero arbitro ca. 17. de dogmatibus ecclesiae cap 32. de bono perseuerantiae ca. 6. and in his 11. sermon de verbis apostoli you shal finde him most directly to teach that of our own selues there is nothing but sin and that to doe wel wil wel coÌ„meth wholy of God which he of his free grace workes in vs and that neuer any of vs did more plainely confute and oppugne
deal with such an one as he had thē to approue his calling by miracles wheras ours in this is far more substātiallie iustified by the scriptures frō whēce our doctrine hath warrāt that hath wrought this effect then it could haue by miracles For as whē the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof it was needful because thē it was new that Moses credit the publisher therof the law it selfe should be cōfirmed by miracle but whē in the raigne of Iosiah Hilkiah the priest foūd the booke of the law which had lien hid before a long time so did but reuiue or renue the same law that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles he wrought no miracles neither was there any called for or looked for at his hāds for it was needles Euē so whē the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias what new gouernment sacraments he would haue in his house it was necessary that miracles should be wrought to confirme the ministry of thē that should teach these new strange thinges first vnto the world but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently cōfirmed by miracles we comming in these later daies of the world and not taking vpon vs to preach any other doctrine then the former and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times had lyen in great part hid no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for Indeede if it could be proued but once that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine as you often in wordes charge vs that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by were any other but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church there were yet some colour of reason why they should bee thus called for at our handes But seeing wee stand vpon that point and haue alwaies done that our religion is the very same and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments by them left for the same purpose vnto the church there is no reason at all in matching vs thus as you doe with Moses and in requiring miracles of vs as of him And vntill you can proue by the scriptures that the doctrine that we preach is false which you neuer shall be able to doe the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 29. vttered by him to admonish the people in his time to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced with the false and lying Prophets that were in those daies make nothing at all against vs nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand which was to proue that seeing we worke no miracles therefore our commission cannot be good in taking vpon vs to reforme you For in these places euē by the words as they are set down by your selfe it most euidently appeares that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets as prophecied falsly in the name of God hauing no vocation from him and labouring to seduce the people by false visions naughty diuinations southsayings and their owne dreames whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word and neuer vse but alwaies abhor the vse of all these meanes that they vsed to seduce the people by But herein most certaine it is that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be For you be they indeede that were neuer sent of Christ but of Antichrist and that preach false doctrine as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting but by the contrariety of your doctrine in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world more relied vpon false visions diuinations southsayings fond dreames for indeede they are the best most vsuall pillers grounds of your Popish doctrine For what is more common with you then to the ende these may haue place to complaine and by long rhetoricall discourses to make what shew you can of the obscurity vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen that so with some colour you may shew the triall of your doctrine by that touchstone and all because in your owne consciences you know that it cannot be iustified thereby And then when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning what you may the credit of the scriptures to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten traditions and liuely practise of the church that so by that window you may thrust in and out to the Church whatsoeuer pleaseth you be it neuer so fond a visiō diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads But yet once againe for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand whither we be sent of God or no for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs you thinke you may pleade simplicity and ignorance for your excuse as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially you say seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit and seeing you reade that the Angell of darknes will sometime trāsforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light c. But withall you must remember that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. so to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the mā of God wise to saluatiō thorowly to furnish him to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue that not only our calling is of God but that also we teach the trueth according to the same and that therefore notwithstanding we worke no miracles yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance as Abimelechs was but either wilfull or of an idle peeuish negligence and therefore such as cannot excuse you in refusing to beleeue vs. And as it is writen that sathan will so transforme himselfe as you write and that we should take heede what way we take for there is a way that seemeth good and yet leadeth to destruction so you must remember that still the due consideration of the writen word is the meanes to preserue vs frō the dāger of both For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe whereby else shall a young man learne to frame his waies aright but by taking heede thereunto according
gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
confute them and to confirme the trueth as it appeareth by Christes answere to Sathan Mat. 4. and by the writings of the ancient fathers against these heretiques And the hardnesse that it hath pleased God to leaue in the Scriptures is not such but as that notwithstanding the simplest may reade and trauell in the Scriptures with great profit howsoeuer it pleaseth you to insinuate in your taunting maner ca. 26. that artificers may not haue the spirit of God and bee profitable readers and vnderstanders thereof For euery one that would be blessed is to take delight in the lawe of god and to shew that his delight by meditating therein day night Psalm 1. and Christ hath commanded all his hearers indifferently to search the scriptures Iohn 5. And for all the hardnes that is in them we reade Psal 19. that the testimonie of the Lord giueth wisedome vnto the simple and his commandements giue light vnto the eies And therefore the holy ghost in Dauid speaking of the scriptures of the olde Testament which were then harder then they be now being so opened as they be now by the accesse of the new Testament saieth thus Thy word is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light to my paths Psal 119. Wherefore Peter in his 2. Epist 1. cap. calleth the writings of the Prophets a light that shineth in a darke place and therefore much more he accounted the scriptures of the new testament lightsome which it seemeth in the verie same place he had an eie vnto adding that they did well to attend to the former vntill the day dauned and the day starre arose in their harâ—â— which by meanes of the Scriptures of the newe Testament might bee though I forget not that the same Peter in the same Epist chap. 3. wrote also that amongst the things writen by Paul in his Epistles concerning the later daies there are some things hard to be vnderstoode For I remember also that yet he noteth to whom they are so saying which they that are vnlearned and vnstable peruerte as they doe the other Scriptures vnto their owne destruction for to such nothing is plaine inough to preserue or keepe them from thus doing Vpon which groundes howsoeuer you and your fellowes with such like discourses as this would discourage the simple and vnlearned from reading the scriptures Origen wisheth that al would doe as it is writen Search the Scriptures in his 2. Hom. vpon Esay And Hierom noteth vpon these wordes Colosse 3. Let the word of God dwell in you plentifully c. that euen laymen ought to haue the word of God not onely sufficiently but also abundantly dwelling in them And therefore Augustine in his 55. sermon de tempore saieth generally vnto his hearers It is not sufficient that yee heare the deuine scriptures in the Church but also in your houses either reade them your selues or els desire some other to reade them and giue you diligent eare to them And Chrysost likewise in his 9. Homil vpon the Coloss is verie earnest to perswade seculare men as you call them to get them the Bible or at the least the new Testament to be their continuall teachets and in his 3. Homil vpon Mat. he saieth plainely that this as a plague marreth or infecteth all that some thinke that the reading of the Scriptures pertaineth onely to monkes And these exhortations tooke such place in the ancient time that Hierom vpon the 133. Psalm saieth that both maried men and their wiues then had this contention and not monkes onely who could learne most Scriptures Whereof came such profit that howsoeuer your gibing spirit can not digest the like in these daies Theodoret in his 5. booke of the nature of man writeth that men in his time might commonly see that their doctrine was not only knowen of them that were doctours of the Church and masters of the people but also euen of Tailers Smithes Weauers of al artificers yea and not onely of learned women but also of labouring women as Sewsters Seruants and Handmaides yea he goeth further saying that not onely citizens vnderstoode the same but also cuntrie people and amongst them Ditchers Deluers Cowherdes and Gardiners and that in such sorte as that you should then heare them disputing of the Trinity and of the creation of all thinges And as for the obiection that you terrifie them so much withal of the hardnes therein the ancient fathers haue met with that also and would not haue them thereby in any case discouraged from following this counsell whereby they are stirred vp to heare 〈◊〉 them And therefore Origen in his 20. Homil vpon Iohn saieth It may be saied the scriptures are harde yet notwithstanding iâ— thou reade them they shall doe thee good and Hierom noâ—â—th that it is the fashion of the Scripture after harde thinges to 〈◊〉 other things that be plaine in his 19. Homil vpon Esay But Augustine belike meeting in his time with your forefathers of whom yee haue learned this obiection hath these wordes in his 5. books against Iulian yee enlarge and lay out with many wordes aâ— nothing is more vsuall with you how harde a matter the knowledge of the scripture is and meete onely for a fewe learned men and therefore in his 3. booke and 26. cap. of Christian doctrine hiâ— giueth vs this rule to expound darke places by more plaine places which saieth hee is the surest way of declaring the scriptures to expounde one scripture by another in his 2. booke and 3. chap. of the same matter he writeth that in those which are conteined euideÌ„tly in the scriptures are found al things that conteine fâ—â—th maners hope and loue But Irenaeus in his 1. booke chap. 3 â—â—â—teth simply that the scriptures are plaine And Chrysost in his first Homil vpon Math. and vpon the 2. Thess 2. writeth that the scriptures are easie to the slaue husbandman widow children and that all things be plaine and cleare therein And yet I 〈◊〉 needes adde with Epiphanius onely to the children of the holy ghost are the scriptures plaine and cleare in his 2. booke and with Solomon knowledge is easy to him that will vnderstand Prou. 14.6 For the naturall man perceiueth not the thinges of the spirit for they are foolishnes vnto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned 1. Cor. 2.14 Of whom that S. Peter 2. Epist 3. might giue vs to vnderstaÌ„de hee onely meant he calleth theÌ„ to whom those thinges in S. Pauls Epistles whereof he speaketh are harde and whose fashioÌ„ it is to misunderstaÌ„d not only those things but also the rest of the Scriptures how plaine soeuer both vnlearned also vnstable which is an argumeÌ„t of waÌ„t of the spirit of God of all true desire indeede to finde knowledge wheresoeuer it be And it may be this is the cause why the scriptures seeme hard vnto you of the church of Rome because you are led by the spirit of your Pope
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
surest way of declaring the scriptures to expoūd one scripture by another in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable Which way Chrys thought so sure a way that he saieth flatly The holy scriptures expound thēselues and suffer not the Reader to erre in his 12. Homil vpon Gen And yet for all this to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought neither for the triall of your interpretations nor yet for determining of this question whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues for triall of their doings to this but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe yea rather they will haue all questions wherein they are principall parties themselues tryed by themselues and you and they crie out that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions But who is so madde as to thinke that you can finde out a better way then Christ and his Apostles vsed You will send vs say some of you for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours and councels and yet when it commeth to the point vnles they and their sayings please you yee reiect them also And you cannot denie but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull what was their meaning then what is the meaning of the Scripture and you know also that it is an vsuall thing with them to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures for triall of their writings as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist to Hirom and in his 111. Epist to Fortunatian And therefore indeede say you what you will this is the safest surest and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures I would to God therfore that once you would giue ouer al other bie and indirect trials and come onely to this for then it would quickely appeare euen to the simple whither you or wee were rather to be followed For all this we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter in warning men to take heede that they doe not rashly beleeue follow euery one that will pretend that they haue the scriptures on their side But whereas you write that the heresies which you will after speake of that were condēned by the Catholique church were as well more largely confirmed by scriptures thē we can thereby confirme our Religiō therein first you most vntruely report that of vs as we doubt not but to make it euident vnto the world if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs secondly I must admonish the reader that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church but that that catholique Church was not yours nor as yours now is For the differences be infinite betwixt yours the Church thē by reason whereof there is as great difference betwixt the Church then and yours now in effect as there is betwixt ours now and yours In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting namely these that you could not content your selfe with shewing vs how they did abuse the Scriptures in wrong alleaging them but that as though your fingers itched to shew that you had as good skill therein as they you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner neither confuting in the ende their collections nor your owne how dangerous soeuer Another tricke you haue in noting the trueths impugned by them and the maner how they went to worke though neuer so vntruly yet cōfidently to set downe that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them that they set themselues then against and that they cried out against traditions of men and cried onely for the writen word as we doe wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you were hatched then and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion to flie from the Scriptures and to accuse them as you doe and to vrge traditions that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies as you doe as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is that for the most part you charge them with what you list not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them belike least in turning to the places examining you proofes we should to your discredit haue occasion thereby to discry in you either some malice errour ignorance or some negligence at the least For example how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places then the Catholicks Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs Hus and his schollers condemning them But to passe on from these things to your conclusion vpon these premisses and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter I graunt you by that which you haue writen in the former chapters it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence but what is this to proue that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings If you would haue proued this indeed you should haue proued that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence as these did that you haue talkt on but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it But yet as though either you had proued it or else that it could not but wtout proofe be graūted you you boldly affirme as these hereticks that you haue talkt of haue perished their heresies so shall we our followers if we repent not Wherunto I answere first that so repentance maie be takē that it is most true that not onely we our followers but you yours also al men else must repent or else we al you and al other shal perish but taking it as you doe for repēting of our religiō of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenāce of it against you you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke that we haue any need at al so or therof to repēt Secōdly I saie that in thus saying you haue shewed your malice boldnes more then any thing else for you haue therin vttered nothing but a blind prophets dreāe and fansie which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of It is wel yet that the euidēce of the trueth hath enforced you here to confesse that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers that the doctours fully
spirit and whosoeuer amongst vs come vnto the scriptures trusting to their owne wittes and so puft vp with ignorance as you speake we vtterly mislike thē as much as you But that you shoulde giue forth this sentence of yours in such general tearmes against simple poore men amongst vs that trauell in the Scriptures you had neither reason nor charity in so doing Commonly such rash iudging of others proceedeth from a minde euen so qualified as you charge theirs to be and from no other fountaine And who so considereth their grosse ignorance and errors that remaine in your great Clerkes euerie where notwithstanding these scriptures what other learning soeuer they pretend he hath most iust occasion thereby to iudge that either they study the scriptures verie little or els that they come to them with the mindes you talke of And if you woulde tell vs plainelie what you meane by humility of spirit which in this case you speake of wee should soone perceiue that thereby you vnderstand not true Christian humilitie which through a base conceite that it breedeth in the owner stirreth him vp the more earnestlie to craue assistance of Gods spirit and by diligent search of the Scriptures and more carefull vse of all good meanes to compasse the right vnderstanding of them but a popish and slauish kinde of humilitie which must breede in the owner such a seruile depending vpon your Popes will and Churches tradition for the sence thereof as that he admit no sence at al of them though thrust vpon him neuer so plainelie by the euidence of the place that will not fullie agree therewith Which breedeth in all of your side either a flat giuing ouer all reading of them or els such a reading of them as that they must bring a sence vnto them from the tradition of your Church and so enforce that vpon them whither they will or no for howsoeuer the scripture speake the Churches tradition maie not be contraried This is your humblenes of spirit when you haue brought Gods spirit speaking in the Scriptures in subiection vnto your popish spirit but this is a proud humilitie and a cursed meekenes You doe but malitiouslie slander vs in that you would perswade your reader that how bad and simple soeuer the man were before assoone as a bishop hath made him minister we say streight hee hath the holy Ghost and no Scripture is to harde for him if hee can with all say the Lorde and rayle vpon the Pope c. And yet I must tell you that wee thinke it not vnlawfull but very necessarie to paint out your Pope with the colours that are due vnto him that men may the better beware of him and yet wee count that no rayling but wee neither tie the holie Ghost to the imposition of the Bishops handes nor place anie such matter in these things here mentioned by you as you woulde leade your reader to imagine we doe You know we might as easily and sute I am with far more trueth saie that with you how lewd vnlearned soeuer the man bee yet when one of your bishops hath priested him thē if he can cal the Pope most holie father speake reuerētly of your Cardinals bishops other prelates saie fi◠on these heretiques these Lutherans and Zuinglians he is straight a famous and worthie catholique Priest with you But wheras amongst other things you obiect that as a fault to their disgrace that they say the ancient doctours were men and that the generall Councels haue erred it is but to discredit them with the simple For you know that the learned knowe that both fathers and councels haue erred that you your owne selues when they write or determine any thing which you like not wil and doe as plainelie as we acknowledge the same For which point let a man read Andrad first booke writen in defence of the Tridentine faith and but what Pighius hath writen of purpose for such cause to discredit the sixt and seuenth Sinods and hee shall most plainelie perceiue that councels are of no further credit with you then they shall be found to say nothing to your mislike But to make it cleare that it is no absurditie to say or hold that coūcels and fathers may erre and haue erred it is wel knowen that as the first Nicean councell and sundry after accordingly decreed a right against the Arrians for the trueth of Christs manhood so the Tyrian the Sirmiense the Ariminense the Sebucian and the Antiochē councels determined with the Arrians against the Nicean and the trueth The second councel of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and mens soules are bodily and circumscriptible and yet this councel notwithstanding this grosse errour was confirmed by the 6 councel held at Constantinople which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general councell The 3. councell of Carthage cap. 23. determined that all praiers at the altar should onelie be made to the father The 2 councell of Ephesus was on Eutyches the heretiques side and decreed for him Your late councels of Constance and Basil decreed a dangerous errour in your conceit I am sure whē they decreed the authoritie of the general councell to be aboue the Popes For your holy father could not be quiet vntill he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria and Florence And in the 6 of Constantinople mentioned before there was a perilous heresie agreed on I am sure in your iudgement Canonthirty six against your Popes title namelie that the Bishops of Constantinople shoulde enioy and haue equall priuiledges with them of Rome See also the twenty two Chapter of the Mileuitan councell Ca. the 26. of the 3 councell at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African the Epistles of the same to Boniface Caelestine and you shal finde plaine direct Canōs against the Supremacy that now your Popes callēge You were best therfore not onely to be cōtēt that we say general coūcels may er but to learne to say so aswel as we your selues al the sort of you or els you see you are not frēds to your holy father You may doe it I warrāt you without any discredit For August a great doctor in his 2. booke 3. Chap against the Donatists saieth that the very general councels are often corrected the former by the later as often as by triall experience the thing is opened that before was shut And therfore disputing against Maximinus li. 3. ca. 14. he calleth him frō the coūcels to the touchstōe of the scriptures And as for the doctors the same Aug. being one of the chiefe of thē in his 2. booke 2. Chap. against Cresconius plainly cōfesseth that the iudges or doctors of the Church as being mē are oftē deceiued therfore in his 2 booke of one baptisme he writeth that we may argue doubt of the writings of any bishop whosoeuer he be but we may not so doe of the holy scriptures If he had
not thought that he himselfe not onely might but had erred would he euer haue writeÌ„ as he did a booke of RetractioÌ„s or RecaÌ„tatioÌ„s And indeed in his 2 book 4. Chap. ad BonifaciuÌ„ against that 2. Epist of the PelagiaÌ„s it appeareth that he was of opinioÌ„ that of necessity childreÌ„ were to receiue the CoÌ„munion or els they could not be saued because it is writeÌ„ Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ drinke his bloud yee haue no life in you and Pope Innocent and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour aswell as wee And who will read his fourth booke de animâ eius origine ad Vincentium and his prologue to his retractions he should there plainlie finde him confesse that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case but rather pardon and follow him non erraÌ„teÌ„ sed in melius proficientem not erring but better profiting Yea in the later place he saieth that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old much lesse when hee was young not to erre And I thinke that you are not ignorant that Irenaeus and Papias were plaine Millenaries and that Cyprian a nuÌ„ber of bishops in his time in Affricke held in councel decreed that rebaptizatioÌ„ of those that had bene baptized by hereticks which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now Why therefore especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures may we not say that which is true that they both might haue erred And thus you haue your answere first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters set downe togither because the drift of them was but al one and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered But yet you haue not quite done with this matter let vs therefore further follow you to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde then in that which we haue heard already The XXVII Chapter I Pray Syrs since you are so absolute answere me to this obiection a A vaine questioÌ„ for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so is it good to beleeue almaner of people that doe alleage the Scriptures or not If ye say yea why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus Apollinaris Hebion Cherintus and Nestorius with diuers others that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new olde Testament If you saie no but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle cap. 4. The which is not to beleeue euery spirit but that we ought to proue whether it be of God or no b Our proofe is that our senâ—e wherein we alleage them stands with the rest of the scriptures is according to the analogy of faith and good maners receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church What proofe wil you shew vs of yours Shewe the priuiledge that you haue by the vvhich God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians Nouatians Nestorians and other such false Apostles considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you If you saie that they were heretickes abusers of the people and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins and false interpreters of the Scriptures all this is certaine a The more haue they to answere for that report so for they can neuer proue it to be so But vvhat though the like report goeth of you Ye say that ye are sent from Cod to reforme the Church They saie as much b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome beâ—ame Antichrist They preached that the Pope vvas Antichrist c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one shevving themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church you doe the like d You say so but you â—ay more then you can proue At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons to confirme their doctrine as you doe for yours That that they preached was called by them the Gospel the pure vvorde of the Lord these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels e Not yet by any lawful and f ee geneâ—al councel was euer our religioÌ„ or any point of it condemned you are so likewise They did appeale vnto the pure vvord of God you doe the like Yet are they proued to be false f This iâ— flat dogs eloquence cogging knaues and so shal you Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betvveene you vpon vvhat grounde g Vpon this that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke which they are not shall vvee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques allow you for Catholicks h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme We desire thee not to thinke it much to answere vs to this what cause doest thou know or what thing hath there beene done that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance spred ouer all the world to coÌ„e to be contained onely in Affricke there onelie to remaine We put the like question to i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his â—nheritaÌ„ce a good while yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue and this we hold and teach and therefore your question is vâ—iâ—e friuolous and flaâ—â—eâ—ous Caluin Beza Viret the rest that it may please theÌ„ to tel vs if that by chauÌ„ce they haue bene aduertised through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce that is to say the Church spread ouer all the world to remaine now in the later daies with a coÌ„panie of rude Swizers or in two or three corners besides not among the rest for there is a great number of good Catholickes what badge caÌ„ you shew or what signe to make vs know that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ If that the Scriptures that you alleage ought to be a sufficient proofe we are content to accept it k There as no need that we should doe so because we can proue that we alleadge them soundly they falsely corruptly if you will be content to grant
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
pulled downe and they cast out and those that did offer sacrifice vnto theÌ„ grieuously punished then saieth he the iustice is not certaine through the pâ—ssion or for hauing suffered death but the death and passion is glorious when it is for the sustaining of the true faith And therefore saieth he our sauiour because he would not haue the simple deceiued vnder this colour of trueth he did not onely say blessed are those that suffer but hee added for iustice But this can in no wise be attributed vnto those heretiques that suffer to seperate the vnion and concorde of the Catholique church c In that booke it appears these Donatists did indeed complaine and yet brag of their persecutioÌ„s but thus much I finde not there testified against them or of theÌ„ In his booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum he writeth to this effect of them And in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae contra Epistolam Petiliani he doeth write that the Donatists which were a sect of heretiques that raigned in his time to confirme their doctrine they did not attende that others should put them to death but they did cast them selues downe from high places others did burne themselues in the fire to be honoured after their death as Martyrs and that is more they did threaten men if they would not kill them d He writes in that epistle no such thing you had the worst lucke in quoting of your testimonies that euer had aâ—y for 3. for one you cite wrâ—ng S. Cyprian in like maner doeth write in the first booke of his Epistles in the first Epistle that though an heretique suffer death for Christ that doeth not confirme him as a Martyr but that his death is the very punishment of his errourâ— and that he cannot go to heauen which is the mansion of the humble for seeing that he doeth seperate himselfe froÌ„ the house of peace which is the church yee know well of what church he doeth speake that he cannot be receaued into heaueÌ„ c. All those that haue writen the histories of the BohemiaÌ„s doe say that in the time of e Zischâ— was a famouâ— souldier captain but minister he was none one Zischa a martial minister of the heresie of the Heborits or Hussites there were a certaine sect of heretiques called Adamites like vnto the olde heresie of the Nicholaites for they did saie as these doe that mens wiues should bee common and they vvent all naked euery one taking the woman hee liked best whom hee did carie vnto their minister and before him hee did saie the holie ghost doeth inspire me to lie with this person then the saied reuerent father did giue him his blessing saying Increase and multiplie and so they went awaie This aboue named Zischa although hee had done a number of wicked deedes yet hee determined to abolish and take awaie this sect f And therefore popish traytours that are executed amongst vâ— for high treason though they seeme to take their death neuer so patiently we lawfully couÌ„â— call tâ—aitours though you â—anonize them for Saints and so he caused two women to be burnt for this abhomination the which two notwithstanding the torment of the fire did sing and giue thankes to God for that it had pleased him to permit them to die for so holy so iust a quarrell Did not Michael Seruet who was once master Caluins dearling rather desire to suffer at Geneua then he would confesse that Christ was God and yet notwithstanding his great patience or to saie the trueth diuilish obstinacy cannot be sufficient to make him a Martyr nor to perswade you to beleeue his doctrine g What need all these seing none of vs euer stande vpon the bare sufferings of meÌ„ no more then you you should yet haue named the places where these things are writen and not thus haue sent vs to seeke we cannot tell where There is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called Ioachim Westphall who in a worke of his doeth mocke at Caluin who did vaunt that within these fiue years aboue an hundred had suffered death to sustaine the Gospell of Geneua and he doeth answere him at large prouing that the sect and doctrine of the saied place ought not to bee approued for the multitude of false martyrs for the Anabaptists whoÌ„ he doeth iustly coÌ„deÌ„ne haue had of their sect a great many more for in lesse theÌ„ three years there haue suffered a great number more then euer there did suffer of Caluinists in fifteene And to conclude this matter the saied Westphal doeth say that the deuill hath his Martyrs euen as well as God with whom like a good sergeant he doeth march giuing the vauÌ„tward vnto the martyrs of the Caluinists that haue suffered at Geneua h The more to blame are they if they should say so but though heat of contentioÌ„ caused Westphalê° to write so bitterly I thinke very few will ioyne with him in this iudgemeÌ„t sure I am they whom you cal Caluinists doe not iudge so of them because of that 1. Co. â— v. 15 So that if one demaund of the Lutherans whither go those that die in the Religion of Caluin of Beza or of the Anabaptists they saie to the Diuell And if one demande of the Caluinists in like maner whither go the Anabaptists and the Lutherans they saie likewise to the Diuell And who would put the like question to the Anabaptists I am assured they would saie at the others to the Diuell For my part I beleeue you I assure you all three i This argueth a most diuelish and profane spirit in the writer And seeing that yee agree so well that one serue for an others harbenger we were very fooles if wee should stay your passage but let you go all to the Diuell for company for I thinke if you were all gone our debates would cease and hell would be so full that the deuill would long for no more The XXXI Chapter YOu neede not to tell vs that Augustine and Chrysostome haue taught that it is not the death but the cause that maketh a martyr For we know that to be a most certaine trueth and the generall doctrine of all good writers both olde and new and therefore you might haue spared your paines bestowed in the proofe of this And therefore most willingly wee acknowledge as Christ hath taught vs that onely they are blessed martyrs that suffer for righteousnes sake Mat. 5. and none to be martyrs howe patientlie soeuer they seeme to suffer their deathes that by for an il cause either in life or doctrine And yet we are not ignorant that many haue died in lewde and for lewd opinions who yet haue seemed to die willingly and cherefully and therefore wee deny not but that it may be true that some such wicked women of that beastlie heresie of the Adamites were put to death in Zischaes time in Bohemia died as you write and
shew your selfe to bee not onely one that dare write any thing how grosse a lie soeuer it be but as malitious in your iudgement as euer was any First you set downe not onely that the Anabaptists condemne thē that die in Luther Caluins religion to hell which is likely inough because they were franticke heretiques haue denied the foundation but also the Lutherans and Caluinists will doe giue that iudgement one of another and yet I am sure you are not able truely to say that euer any of Caluins iudgement saied or wrote so Secondly though your owne iudgement be short yet so it is set downe that you shew that you beleeue that all the three sorts go thither And such care compassion your catholique heart had of it whē you had done that you iest at it accounting your selues fooles if you should stay their passage thither For if we were al gone for company you thinke you should be at quiet you say hel would be so full that the deuil would long for no more companie Is this your popish diuinity to make sport at the damnation of men And hold you this for a principle that it is folly to stay men from running togither to hel Indeed it may be For I haue read that it is a rule amongst you that if your Pope lead headlong with him multitudes by heapes to hell yet no man may be so hardie as to say vnto him why doest thou so Distinct 40. Cap. Si Papa But howsoeuer you account this diuinity certaine I am you wil finde it that in no two things more the deuils shew themselues deuils then in these In laughing and reioicing in the damnation of the soules of men and in letting them go freely for company to hell without stoppage as many as will Truely truely God must take from you this profane and deuilish spirit of yours and giue you grace to repent of it or els you may be sure how many soeuer die and go to hel before you hell wil long for you and you shal finde place and roome inough there I warrant you The XXXII Chapter THere is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called a What will not a passionate aduersary say to disgrace them that he writes against If like testimonies of men of your Religion writing yet in some points one against another wil be admitted it is an easy matter thus to discredit your whole faction Heshusius the which within these three yeares hath made a booke against Caluin Peter Boquin Theodore de Beza Gulielmus Elcimalcius he saieth amongst other things that Carolstadius Zuenfeldius Caluin Beza doe shew well the vncertainty of their faith by the diuersities of opinions that there is amongst thē the which fault saieth he doeth proceede of this that they haue forsaken the true sence of the scripture to follow the opinions of their owne heades b And yet in truth lyeth therein himselfe And in that very booke the saied authour doeth giue the lie to Caluin because that in that hee wrote against the aboue named Westphal hee saieth that Martin Luther and his adherents did acknowledge him as their brother the which thing he maintaines to be false c Greater more disagreement◠there are amōgst you papists and therefore these conclusions presse you rather then vs. Thus seeing yee agree togither like dogs and cattes that all these sects haue confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their owne bloud it is best to conclude as we haue saied before that it is not the paine nor the tormēt that doeth make the righteous martyr except we should saie that diuerse contrary messengers are sent from one master the which is notoriously false for that good king frō whom the trueth doeth come indeede hath so good a memory that he doeth neuer send contrary messengers but rather his faithfull seruāts doe all with one voice and one accord honour him as the father of our sauiour Iesus Christ The XXXII Chapter HEre againe as in the former Chapter you labour to discredit Caluin Beza and others onely with the testimony of Heshusius an vtter enemy of theirs about the quarrel of the cōtrouersie of the Sacrament whom heat of contention and a desire therefore to disgrace his aduersaries rather then iust cause led thus to write For what reason had he there to ioyne Zuenfeldius with Caluin and Beza with whom they helde no more communion and fellowshippe then hee himselfe and Corolstadius who was a doctour in Wittenberge in Luthers time and an associate to him in disputatiō against Ecchius he might with more reason haue ioyned with Luther himselfe and his partners then with these And howsoeuer the intemperate heate of contention emboldened Heshusius to giue Caluin the lie most certaine yet it is that Melancthon a great frende of Luthers whom Heshusius cannot deny was an adherent of Luther accounted of Caluin as of a good brother For in an Epistle which he wrote to him he calleth him Charissim◠fratrem most deare brother it is the 187. Epistle in the booke of Caluins Epistles And I am perswaded that what Caluin wrote he was able to iustify in this behalfe how rudely soeuer angry Heshusius gaue him the lie This obiection of our disagreement hath beene oft enough vrged and answered alreadie It seemeth that you haue great penurie of arguments against vs when this must come in thus often especially seeing as I haue shewed greater contentions haue beene amongst your selues In which cases would you haue thought a mā should haue dealt wel with you if the bitter speeches of the one side had alwaies beene taken as sufficient argumentes to disgrace the other Or would you haue liked that thereupon a man should inferre as you doe that you agreed no better then dogges and cattes and that therefore you so differing amongst your selues came not both from one master God who vseth not to sende contrary messengers this had beene an harde conclusion against a number of you in the time of your schismes betwixt your Popes and Antipopes and in the times of the contentiōs of your Friers with your other Prelates and also amongst themselues whereof I haue put you in remembrance before Chapter twenty eight And yet if you will needes meate this measure vnto vs vpon occasion of this one controuersie about the maner of Christs reall presence you must bee contented that vpon moe and greater contentions amongst you wee sende you home as good measure againe As for your conclusion that it is not the paine but the cause that maketh a true martyr wee graunted it you at the first but where to make way to bring it in here againe you insinuate not onely that the Donatists Adamites Seruetus and the Anabaptistes of whom you haue spoken in your former Chapter haue died to confirme their false Religion which we graunt you but that these also that you spake of last Lutherans and Zuenfeldians haue
insomuch that I dare bee bolde to say it is as much to the good of this Church and common wealth as if an other such Vniuersity as one of these had beene now founded built and endued as richly as either of these now is And though our Cleargy men now be not able to builde so many Colledges as yours were yet those things that they doe that way though they match not yours in quantity they yet may ouermatch yours quickely in quality For you know in the Gospell the widowes two mites which she threw into the treasury for the poore of the little that shee had wel gotten was in Christs account a greater almes then theirs which threw in farre greater summes of their superfluities Marke 12. And well knowen it is that the richest and greatest of ours are for their places but beggers to them that haue beene of like or the same place amongst you whereof the reason is not onely that they lacke a number of deuises that yours had to encrease their gaine but also that they haue not your Romish consciences which with your Popes dispensation could make them wide enough to swallow vp the commodities not onely of as many benefices but also Bishopricks and other offices ciuill or ecclesiasticall as they could possibly get Whereof it came that of their very superfluities vnlesse they had beene prouder then Lucifer and more wastfull in belly cheare then euer was the rich glutton some thing might well be spared and of a number of them so much as might haue procured the building of many moe then they left behinde them Hospitals and Colledges though you would so insinuate we haue pulled downe none but haue increased the number of them And as for your Abbies other â—loisters of religious houses you had for the inriching and building of them vnder pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses Dirges and trentals deuoured so many widowes houses robbed so many heires and fatherlesse children spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers and since the liuers in them were growen to such height of sinnes not to be named as that in the iust iudgement of God there could no lesse punishment come vpon them then the vtter defacing and ouerthrowing of them lest if they had beene left easie to haue beene set in their former state againe they should too easily and too quicklie haue beene shoppes and sties for the like filthinesses and abhominations againe And yet here with vs in EnglaÌ„d Cardinall Woolsey by the Popes authority pulled downe the first and to the suppression of the rest many of your bishops and Cleargy vnder king Henry consented and in diuers other places they haue beene also by lawfull and sufficient authority orderly for these causes defaced and doubtles though not turned to so good vses as they might perhaps haue beene if the wrath of God against them for the foresaied causes woulde haue suffered it yet I am fully perswaded to a better vse by farre yea infinite degrees then they were before And therefore these things considered this rather may be counted a good worke in vs thus to haue defaced them and conuerted their vse then a fault whereof wee need repent vs And consequently vaine is your charging of vs with seeking to make amends with giuing a trifle to the poore This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdome then vs for wee account all almes and other outward good workes whatsoeuer to be vnprofitable to the doer vnlesse they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience which wil ouerthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of you are they that care not so your Church be inriched if it be with the farming of concubines dispensation for any sin with the rentes yearly for the open stewes that with the which they get by whoring during their liues so you haue it when they die For ther was nothing more coÌ„moÌ„ theÌ„ for your priests to farme coÌ„cubines though they might not be suffred to haue lawful wiues experieÌ„ce hath taught that there was no sin but ther might be marchaÌ„dise made of it in your romish court faire the your Popes a long time haue takeÌ„ rent for the stewes in Rome that yearely a good round summe that they haue bene glad to take the goods of those harlots when they died for their Churches vse it is most notoriouslie knowen And what hath beene more vsuall both in practise and doctrine with you then to teach much satisfaction for sinne and redemption of former faultes to bee performed by almes giuing especially so it were to your Priestes and Clergy men neuer caring so you might come by it of their goods aliue or dead whether euer it was well gotten or no For in trueth this hath beene the policy that hath brought your Clergy to so infinite wealth as they were of and made all other but beggers in comparison of themselues Therefore now let them that haue any iudgement as you wish looke vpon the fruite of your trees whether they bee so good or no as you here make bragges of The XXXV Chapter NOw seeing that you haue visited our garden if a man maie bee so bold I pray lend vs the keies that we may in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religion Read al the histories writeÌ„ froÌ„ the passion of Christ to our daies you shal find that al those sects that haue left our Roman Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare a Your Romish Church that now iâ— is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church as euer any heretiques went froÌ„ it and of you especially your saying is tâ—ue being seperated from the saied Church then they did in an huÌ„dred years before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholique Church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late daies I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose followers you doe affirme your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs b This is vntrue as euery one that wil view the â—ct and monumeÌ„ts of the Church writen by master Fox may see you haue placed Iohn Hus as the first Martyr of your ancieÌ„t Church who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone eueÌ„ as we accoÌ„pt c Your religion and Stephens agree â—o wel that if hee were aliue again you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes to stone him whatsoeuer you say of him now he being deade S. StepheÌ„ to be the first Martyr of our Church Now to know whither yeâ—e of the opinioÌ„ of the Hussites or no that I leaue for some other time and for this present I am content to condescende to that that you haue writen I meane that Iohn Hus did preach your Gospell and made a number of such faithfull persons
as you are and that hee suffered death to sustaine your Religion Then let vs see what good fruit this did produce vnto vs those that haue writen the stories of Boheme and among others d Your authour you know was a great papist and afterwardes a Pope therfore worthily he is to be suspected as a partiall reporter and yet cap. 35. before he is enforced to coÌ„fesse that the Senate had secretly murdered so many of those that called the Pope Antichrist that the bloud of theÌ„ running out of the gate bewraied it whereupon this and some other extremities followed Aeneas Siluius doe testifie that in the yeare of our Lorde God 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Hussite in the citty of Prage which is the Metropolitane of that kingdome the which accompanied with a number of companions as zelous as himselfe they did execute so horrible a cruelty that eleuen of the principall magistrates were driuen to flye from the Citty to saue their liues and seuen more for in all they were 18. being taken by them they did cast them out at the windowes of their owne houses and did kill them with their speares as they fell This was done Sigismondus being then Emperour in the time of Martin the first Pope of Rome of that name Vneslaus being then king of Boheme The next yeare after the death of this saied Vneslaus they did spoile a This al is too much and more then either your authour or the euidence of the matter wil beate by far al the monasteries Abbeies and Churches of of the saied kingdome And among others one Iohn Zischa who was their captaine in the Cittie of Prage he made them all passe through the edge of the sworde without sparing man woman or childe And the like was done in another towne of the saied kingdome called Messim the yeare 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties they did not care whither those of their coÌ„pany were of their sect or no b This is your slander for any thing that I can see in your author or any where else but indeed no pâ—ople sâ— barbarous but you caÌ„ finde in your hearts to vsâ— them against good Christians yea he hath bene a Pope of Rome that hath betraied a Christian Emperour into the hâ—ndâ— of the Turkes for so dealt Gregory 9. with the Emperâ—ur Fredericke witnes Caspinian for some were Idumeans some Palestines some Moabites and some other Amelecites euen as of your bountifull goodnesse ye call all those that will not be of your sect Papists Infidels Hypocrites Idolaters and therefore we may iustly saie that you are their right heares apparent although yee haue gone somewhat before them and as our sauiour saied accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroicall acts that you haue done in this c You may wholy thanke your selues for the desolate estate of France almost desolate kingdome of France there needeth no other witnes to proue it but the testimonie of your owne eies and eares which haue hearde and seene more almost then any man can write Therefore I beseech you not to reproch any more the abuses of our ecclesiasticall ministers for although it be so that they haue neede of some reformation yet I doe thinke it is necessarie to choose some better staied persons then you are d If you may be iudge this wil easily be the sentence for you haue done more harme in fiue yeares then ours haue done in 1500. S. Augustine in the first booke of the cittie of God e Capite 1. you might haue added doeth magnifie in the Christians behalfe the diuine fauour of God for he doeth write that when the Gothes did destroie and spoile the citty of Rome the Romans although they were not Christians did retire themselues for their sauegard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation had that respect to God that they neuer durst nor would enter into those holy places to doe them any displeasure f It is a wonder that yoâ— that haue so openly slaiâ—e thousands in Châ—rches since your most barbarous and faithles massacres of late in France began as it is notoriously knowen not yet beyond the memory of man in Merindall and Cabriers should yet bee so impudent to obiect this to vs as a fault which yet you haue not proued to haue beene committed by vs wherein you glory as a vertue You which make so great profession of the Gospell haue shewed your selues a great deale more cruell then those barbarous people for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples and you haue in manie places spoiled the churches and murdered al those that yee found in them so that one might well saie to you that that Optatus Myleuitanus in his booke con Parm. Donatist the which was that the Donatists ought to be content you likewise to haue wounded the members of the Church and to haue deuided the people of God f If you would haue learned this lesson it had beene well with vs. at the lest you should haue spared the alters and the teÌ„ples not to make warre against the stones The XXXV Chapter NOw in this you craue the keies to enter by into our garden to visite our trees that so you maie see the fruites of our religion hauing gotten in in your owne pleasant conceit after you had cast your eies about you and looked a while vpon our trees first you bid vs read all the stories since Christ and tell vs that so doing wee shal finde that all those sects that haue left your Romish Religion or Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare being seperated from you then they did in an hundreth before Now doing as you will vs we finde indeed great hurt hath beene done by the ancient heretiques for the space of six hundred yeares that haue seperated themselues from the Roman Church that then was but withall we finde that our Church is farre liker that Church then your Roman Church that now is and since what hurt soeuer hath beene done by one or other that haue seperated themselues froÌ„ you though we challenge not communioÌ„ with euery one that hath so done your owne doings we finde in stories hath far exceeded theirs in al kinde of impiety Thus hauing in these general words set a good face vpoÌ„ it as though you could say very much of the bad fruites which you finde growing of our Religion you beginne at the yeare 1418 with the sturs in Bohemia laying to our charge the murdering of seuen magistrates of Prage by a certaine Monke and his companions sundry other things done by Iohn Zischa and his army in the time of those warres there then you lay to our charge also once againe al the troubles of late in France preferring vs for cruelty before the Goathes that conquered Rome and yet spared their Temples and those that
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
they left in writtng by the ordinance of God to confute such heretiques as you are The XXXVII Chapter AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter you be thought your selfe that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion that it was needefull for you euē for shame before you made a full end of your booke to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds or at least some shew colour of your so lewd and bold boasting And therefore here now at last to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations amōgst whom not one of an hundreth you knew either for lacke of skill or will leasure or bookes could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues You thought belike your credit to bee such that they must needes beleeue that you cite thē truely and faithfully and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you in the points you alleadge them for What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted or for any to yeelde you such credit herein wee shall see anone when wee come to the examining of your quotations In the meane time what ment you by this thus onely when all commeth to al to countenance these 4 points your Ceremonies in baptisme confession before the sacrament praiers to the Saints departed and praier for the dead Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 and the coūtenancing of these Or was your prouision ready for no more that but once in all your booke you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 points Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest but for being tedious to your reader Truely he is much beholden to you for your discreet kindnes towards him that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion as you haue and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides and now when you came to the point indeed which of all other was most materiall and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe then thus to shift him of with as good as nothing bearing him yet in hand that but for his ease you both could and would haue saied inough This is a common tricke amongst you thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers to weary them with things needles and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this matters most needful Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 points or that which after you pretend if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath either in these points or in the rest is but from earth and not from heauen from men and not from the holy ghost For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue coūtenāced either these points or any of the rest out of Gods owne booke and writen word the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion nor yet your boasting spirit which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you either would or could haue suffered you thus much to the preiudice your whole cause cleane to haue forgotten so much as once to go about it But to say the trueth seeing it is confessed by your betters not onely that this but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religiō which we striue with you for are grounded but vpon tradition as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before you are the honester man and the more a great deale to be liked for your thus secretly confessing the same with them Now yet by this the Reader may plainely vnderstand what hath indeede beene the reason why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours and withall haue spent so much time in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs. You were wise enough it seemeth to see where your strength lay and from whēce would rise your bane and therefore who can blame you for leaning as you doe altogither to the one and shunning the other But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity but humanity no more Theologie but patrologie and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues rags and clouts to couer your shame and nakednes Truely these you haue whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture or at least cōsonant vnto it nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood and when they taught as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties with sound warrant from the scriptures as I haue sundry times shewed already but onely from forged or corrupt tradition and from the fathers either misunderstood or erring as men So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries sentences of fathers mistaken or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue are the groundes pillers and bewties of your church and Religion And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed in confuting all heretiques in their times by and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie and we enuy not you but rather heartely lament and pittie you that yours hath no better grounde then it hath But to
are so ful fast of your side therin as you pretend I wil vouchsafe so much further paines as particulerly to examine al your quotations out of them The first man you name is Tertullian and in him you send vs to two places for your anointing and abrenuntiation to his booke de resurrectione carnis and for thrise dipping to his booke de coronâ militis Wherin it seemeth a little you mistooke your notes for there is no mention of abrenūtiation that I can finde in the former place in the later indeede there is but you quote the former for it not the later at all Whereby any man may see you tooke your quotations vpon trust and neuer tooke the paines to turne to the places in the authours themselues and that so it came to passe that that which you should haue fathered vpon the later place through ignorance you haue attributed to the former Anointing I find mētioned in the former place I grāt but neither the matter nor form of your anointing can I either find ther or in any other place quoted by you for it And in the other I cōfesse he mētioneth thrise dipping but to what purpose is that to iustifie your ceremonies or maner of baptizing seeing as I haue noted before out of your Tridētine cathechism in this point you are so indifferent whither it be ministred by dipping powring or sprinkling neuer once there prescribe this fashiō of thrise dipping as necessary Your second authour is Cyprian who you say in the second volume of his Epistles Epist the twelfth doeth write that the holy Chrisme was giuen vnto children that were baptized Wherein your note gatherer abused you For doubtlesse in that Epistle there is not one worde either of Chrisme or anie other Ceremonies about baptisme Indeed in the 12 Epistle of his first book of Epistles he speakes of anointing the baptized with oile but holy chrisme he calleth it not But to speake the trueth both Tertullian and he haue not onely in their workes sundry times mentioned Chrisme and anointing of the baptized but they went too farre both in vrging the necessity thereof and in attributing vnto it such diuine grace as they did insomuch that it is not without cause of the learned thought that therin they were both the schollers of Mōtanus But certaine it is of whomsoeuer they learned thus to vrge this ceremony to the obscuring preiudicing of the vse and effects of baptisme as too grossely they did in tying rather the gift of the holy Ghost to sanctifie and regenerate to it thē to baptisme they neuer learned it other of Christ nor of any sound Christian nor may any Christian more think himselfe bound to vrge it and vse it as they did because they did so then he is bound to be a Montanist because Tertullian was so or to holde rebaptization of them that before were baptized of heretiques because Cyprian did so Your nexte man is Origen to whose 12. Homilie without any further additiō and to diuerse other places of his workes without naming vnto vs any of these places you send vs for abrenuntiation and the signe of the Crosse to bee made in the baptised his forehead wherin it was your hap to shew as great negligence and ignorance as might bee For Origen wrote many times 12. Homilies as it is to be seene in his works whereas it should seeme by your kind of quoting of him that you thought he had done so but once and yet in none of these 12. Homilies that he wrote finde I these two ceremonies mentioned and as for the diuerse other places in his works that you speake of when you shall vouchsafe to name them your answere will bee as easily made Next is Chrysostome of whom you alleage two places his 12. Homily vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. and his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians and both these onely for renuntiation In the first whereof there is mention of the signe of the Crosse made in the forehead but not expressely in Baptisme and in the other there is mention of renuntiation indeede but so there is not at al in the former wherby againe one may see how you neuer turned to these places and read them your selfe and besides it is euident that either through ignorance or negligence or both you father that vpon your former noted place which you should attribute to the later as here that vpon Origen which you should haue left to Chrysostom and so shew your errour in both But what were all this if you had not beene at all thus ouerseene against vs or for you more then for vs seeing both these ceremonies or rites are reteyned and vsed amongst vs in farre better maner then with you Now followeth Augustine out of whom you quote vs in Psalm 31. Aug. lib. 15. contra Iulianum Pelagianum lib. 1. cap. 2. Item de nuptiis concupiscentiâ lib. 1. Cap. 20. In Iohannem tract 33. In Canonicam Iohannis tract 3. tra 6. de Ecclesiast dogmatibus Cap. 31. De Symbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. Cap. 11. libro de his qui initiantur sacris that is eleuen places in all wherein yet you haue more grossely shamed your selfe then in the former For first of all in these eleuen places there are but three wherein I finde any mention of any of your ceremonies and that is in his first booke and second Chapter against Iulian in his first booke and twentieth Chapter de nuptiis concupiscentiâ and in his thirty one Chapter de Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus and lay all these three togither and there are mentioned onely three that is exorcisme exufflation and abrenuntiation whereof we vse one aswell as you namely abrenuntiation and as for the other two thereof you your selues haue but the first and therefore why may not we aswell giue ouer both the other as you haue done the first of them Secondly you send vs indefinitely to his fifteene booke as you did before to Origens twelfth homily not telling vs what 15. booke you meane thinking belike that he had neuer wrote but once 15. books of one title wheras euery one that is acquainted with his works know the contrary If you say you meant his 15 booke against Iulian then therein you shew as much ignorance for against him he wrote but 6. Thirdly you father vpon Aug. two books de symbolo one de his qui initiantur sacris whereas indeed in al Augustines tomes there are no books that simply barely beare those titles to be found He wrote one book de fide symbolo 4 de symbolo ad cathecumenos but in no 7 nor 11 Chapters of any of these is there any thing for your purpose but none at al he hath writen that in title cōmeth any thing neare the other you father vpon him But I imagine that if your eie-sight or memory had not failed you you should
and would haue quoted these not in his name but in Ambroses But yet then you took your mark amisse also For he hath no bookes neither that simply cary these titles Indeed he hath writen fiue de fide ad Gratianum and one de fide orthodoxâ contra Arrianos and a booke he hath writen de his qui initiantur mysteriis and fiue de sacramentis but in no seuenth nor eleuenth Chapters of any of his bookes de fide or symbolo hath he any thing to serue your turne Neuer man therefore was so abused as you Master Albine were I thinke in taking so few quotations of credit I would therefore henceforth aduise you vnlesse you be euen resolued vtterly to leese your credit trust no more thus either other mens eies or fingers Well Basil and Arnobius are yet behinde let vs see if you hit any rightlier of your places out of them you cite Basils 15 and 75 Chapters de Spiritu Sancto and Arnobius vpon the 27 Psalme Neither of which you haue rightly quoted For there are but 30 Chapters in al Basils booke de Spiritu Sancto as Erasmus hath translated him caused him to bee published and Arnobius vpon the twenty seuen Psalme hath not at all mentioned any ceremony about baptisme Basil in his fifteene and twenty seuen Chapters of that booke and Arnobius vpon the seuenty fiue Psalme make mention of abrenuntiation of some other ceremonies before mentioned by the other fathers but yet neither these nor all the other laied togither that you haue named either in the places mentioned by you nor any where else mention al the ceremonies which you vse by far though you would by your lowd bragging make your reader beleeue they doe Thus you see vnlesse you had beene disposed vtterly for euer to shame your selfe you could not in so few quotations especially not set on your margent but in your lines as they are the better to preuent wrong applying of them haue beene taken with thus many grosse ouersightes May not any man worthilie thinke you hereby iudge that howsoeuer the names of the fathers are familiar with you that yet you are a verie stranger in their workes indeed Of twenty places you haue alleadged aright and to the purpose scarse fiue and of seuen fathers belike because you would not deale partiallie with them your happe hath beene one waie or other to erre in quoting of euerie one of them Surelie you are worthie to bee trusted vpon your bare word without any further examination of your quotations an other time you haue dealt so faythfully and vprightlie in these And to conclude this point withall as though you had most rightly quoted and that they most pregnantlie had iustified all your Ceremonies as you vse them you confidently tell your reader that if hee will reade these places hee shall finde that they did vse the verie Ceremonies that you doe vse and wee so much myslike Thus yet you coulde set a good face on the matter though you could doe little else But in good earnest is it your meaning by these places to make mē before that none are to be accoūted rightly baptised vnles vnto him all these your ceremonies which you talke of be vsed What say you then to Christs baptisme and the multitudes baptised by Iohn in Iorden and after by the Apostles sometimes in one day in water that was next to hād Sure I am that none of your ceremonies that you striue for here so much which we mislike was vsed then to anie of them and yet I am sure neuer were any with these ceremonies of yours better baptized then these were Nay to presse you a litle further if these ceremonies were so necessarie as you pretend how chāceth it that aboue 600. yeares after Christ that is long after any of the fathers you haue named to countenance them withal we read in Bedaes story so often mētion as we do of so great multitudes here in England by famous Bishops baptised in one daie in common riuers It is vnpossible that they should baptise so many in so short time as that story shewes they did and yet vse to euery one all the solemnity of ceremonies that you here thus pleade for It is cleare thē by that practise that for all this and whatsoeuer else any where either these or any other doctour before that time had writen hereof that then there was no such danger imagined to bee in omitting of these as your Tridentine coūcell now would make men beleeue there is But for a general answere to al that you or any of your side haue or can alleadge out of any father either for the iustifying your kinde of vsing these your ceremonies or any of the other three points that follow in this Chapter as long as you are not able to warrant your doings and opiniōs therin by the scriptures which we are sure you shall neuer be able to doe by the fathers leaue though they were as pregnant for you as you pretend which they are not neither that by the direction and aduise of the best of themselues we will may chuse for all their writings whither we will like any whit the better of them or no. For Hierom saieth that all things which mē seeke out and inuent at their owne pleasure without authority and testimony of the scripture as though they were the traditions of the Apostles the sword of God cutteth of Vpon the first of Aggei And Origen in his first homily vpon Hierom confesseth that their iudgements without witnes of the scripture were of no credit And Hierom againe vpon the 98. Psalme writeth that all which they spake they were to proue by the scriptures and vpon the 23. of Mat. he saieth plainely that which hath not authority from the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And Chrysostome vpon the 2. to Tim. Hom. 9. saieth if there be any thing either to learne or to be ignorant of we shall learne it in the scriptures And as for all other authority Hilary saieth in his 7. booke of the trinity that it is short darke troublesome And as for Augustine he of all the rest hath most plainely taught vs this in his 19. Epistle to Hierom and also in his 111. epistle to Fortunatian where he plainely shewes that hee gaue no further credit to any mans writings then he found them agreeable to the scriptures and therefore de baptismo contra Donatistas li. 2. cap. 3. he refuseth to be pressed either with the authority of Cyprian or any other man or councell further then by the canonicall scriptures their iudgements are approued and he teacheth Paulina in his 112. epistle not to follow his authority or to beleeue a thing because he hath said it but to beleue the canonicall scripture We saie therefore with him lib. 1. cap. 22. de peccatorum meritis remissione let vs yeeld cōsent vnto the holy scriptures which can neither deceaue nor be deceaued
abrogated that order and haue thence forth left euery one whē he communicated iudicio conscientiae suae as Zozomen there plainely affirmes he did neither before that could one confessour haue serued for all the Christians in that great and famous City where I read in Iustinians time there were sixty ministers But this is the plaine trueth it was vsed and exhorted vnto as a good profitable order to be vsed so long and so far forth as they saw it needful and a furtherance to vertue and godlinesse And this is certaine the fathers by Albine here cited for auricular confession speake onely either for publicke confession of publikly knowen notorious sinnes before the receit of the sacrament or else onely to perswade men when they feele themselues sicke of sinne and grieued with the burden thereof in conscience then to confesse such their sinnes vnto some godly discreet minister that hath both skill and will to comfort their distressed soules In which case and maner wee allow and like aswell as they that men should so doe and it is a thing much vsed and practized amongst vs. There is lastly a confession of sinne of one brother or Christian to an other whom he hath offended to breed reconciliation againe betwixt the parties taught by Christ Matthew the fift and eighteenth Chapters Luke the seuenteenth and Iames the fifth allowed both by scriptures and fathers with one consent and this before the receit of the sacrament and at all other tymes wee teach and vse as very necessary Other confessions then these we neither finde taught nor practized in the old Testament nor new nor yet vrged by any of the ancient fathers you name either in the places by you remembred or else where and therefore you haue but beene abused and now seeke by the sound of their names to abuse others whiles you would make men beleeue because they speake of some of these kindes of confessing of sinnes or other in these places that therfore they speak for your Lenten shrift or auricular confession which was not so much as once thought of by any of them nor for many hundreth yeares after the latest of thē by any other writer of credit The question indeede betwixt you and vs then in this poynt is not whither sinnes be to bee confessed at all before wee receiue For yee see most willingly we confesse sundry wayes they may and ought but this is it whither such particuler and speciall confession of all our sinnes and the circumstances thereof that we can possibly by due premeditation had thereof remember in secret to a Priest be by Gods ordinance absolutely necessarie to remission of sinnes for all of both sexes once in the yeare at the least or no. Wee holde the negatiue and you the affirmatiue That sinnes haue beene and may agayne bee in secret confessed to such as be faithfull ministers and that the so doing some tyme is very good and profitable wee deny not you see but either to imagine such a necessity as you teach thereof or to bynde to such a full enumeration of all at anie tyme are the thinges wee saie which you can neuer proue either by Scripture or father For your owne Gratian brings sundry authorities before that Lateran coūcell when first this your opinion of the absolute necessity thereof to saluation was aggreed vpon as you may reade in him de paenitentiâ Distinct 1. some for the necessity and some to the contrary thereof and in the end Cap. Quamuis concludeth thus to which of these opinions one should rather sticke I leaue to the readers iudgement for both partes sayeth hee hath astipulatores sapientes religiosos viros that is fauourers men that are both wise and religious and Panormitan a great Doctour of yours disputeth the matter that your confession is not by Gods lawe but by mans And Chrysostome that succeeded Nectarius so liked his predecessours act of abrogating the order of secret confession to the confessour that he in his fourth sermon of Lazarus saieth Caue homini dixeris peccata ne tibi opprobret c. that is take heed that thou tell not thy sinnes to man lest hee vpbraide thee with them neither confesse them to thy fellowe seruaunt that hee may publish them but confesse them to God the Lorde and the like he writeth hom 31 vpon the 12 of the Hebrues and vpon the fiftieth Psalme as he counteth and else where often in his workes And as for your special and particular enumeration of all sinnes and their circumstances that possibly can be remembred Beatus Rhenanus a frend otherwise of yours in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance reporteth how that euē for the vexation and torment of consciences that that bread one Geilerius a Carthusian monke wrote a booke which he entituled de morbo confessionis of the sicknesse of cōfession against the morosity scrupulosity brought in by Thomas and Scotus and other schoolemen of whose minde for that point Beatus Rhenanus sheweth himselfe to be And howsoeuer a number of your Priests by their fruites haue made it appeare that of all other they would be loth that young women should not come to auricular confession vnto them yet I can tell you Basil in his no question thinketh it not very decent that such should come alone but rather aduiseth that the yoūger by the graue elder women should make their state knowen that by thē they may receiue comfort or direction what to doe as they shall neede But yet because I would be loth to omit any thing either to cause you Master Albine to thinke that you haue saied or alleadged any thing of weight to iustifie this your kinde of confession withall or to cause the reader to suspect that these fathers whose names you haue brought vs for this purpose in these places say more directlie for you then they doe let vs particulerly examine your quotations alwaies remembring the state of the question as it is in this point betwixt vs. Your first man is Cyprian in his fift sermon de lapsis wherein his purpose was to perswade them that had either grieuously fallen from Christianity to idolatrie or that had but a secret purpose for the safety of themselues so to doe effectually to repent thereof in persuit of which his purpose in the ende hee commeth to that which it seemeth you ayme at to note it as an argument of greater fayth and better feare in such that will though they haue but thought so to fall yet sorrowfully and playnelie confesse the same before the Lordes Priestes and so making exoniologesin that is publicke confessiō of their consciēce shew forth the burdē of their minde seeking holesōe phisicke though for their small woundes in comparison and therefore a little after he there earnestly exhorteth euery such offender in purpose or performance to confesse their fault therein whiles they be here whiles their confession and repentance may be acceptable with the Lorde Which place serueth
wel to proue that then of such notorious faults there was vsed and lookt for publicke and sorrowfull confession But what is this to the enumeration of all sinnes remembred in secret in the eare of a Priest Sure I am in that sermon before he came to these wordes contrary to your doctrine and practise in this very point he teacheth that veniam peccatis quae in ipsum cōmissa sunt solus potest ille largiri qui peccata nostra portauit c. that is he onely can giue vs pardon for our sinnes that bore our sinnes c. adding streight man cannot be greater then God neither can he being a seruant by his indulgence remit or forgiue that which is grieuously cōmitted against God least so to him that is fallē this fault come vnto his other that he forget that it was saied lōg ago Hier. 17. cursed is that man that hath his trust in man And therefore both immediatly and thorow that sermon he is earnest to moue them that were fallen to fly to God in prayer in weeping and mourning Now indeede both for their better direction to turne vnto the Lorde effectually and for the further declaration and testification of their repentance to be vnfeyned he would haue confession of such their falles to be made with all sorrowfulnes before the Lords Priests Let this doctrine therefore of his onely be receaued and your auricular confession will come short home For if none but such that haue so fallen as he there speakes of should confesse such their falles and that onely to that ende that he teacheth without all opinion when they haue done that any can absolue them but God your confessours and ghostly fathers as you tearme them might be set a begging for any liuing they could get by hearing of confessions The next you alleadge is Origen vpon the 37. Psalme and in his 2. Hom. vpon Leuiticus wherin indeede he coūselleth those that haue fallen into any greeuous sinne though secret yet to seeke out some discreet and skilful Phisition to open their disease and distresse of minde vnto that according to his counsell and aduise they may doe either in publickly confessing of them or otherwise in repenting of them and this is the most that can be made of any thing fated by Origen in these two places but this his coūsel may bee followed thorowly and yet you come very short of prouing the necessity by gods law of your auricular confession or speciall and precise enumeration of all the sinnes and circumstances thereof in the eare of a Priest The phisicke that they fought at the Priestes handes in these cases was direction how to repent and to recouer comfort vnder the burden of their sinnes by the meanes of such comfortable doctrine and coūsell that he should giue them out of the booke of God and the thing that you seeke for at their hands is absolution to be pronounced by them vnto you for your so confessing So that neither for matter to be confessed nor for the ende thereof haue you any warrant and countenance from them After Origē Augustines 2. booke de visitatione infirmorum is produced in which booke the authour threatneth dānatiō to such as hauing sinned shunned the iudgement of men yet tooke not occasion by the consideration of Gods iudgement which they could not shunne to repent and amend but if they iudged and amended themselues he doeth not so Allen will not stand to it that those bookes were Augustines writing of this matter And Erasmus censure therof was that it is sermo locutulei nec docti nec diserti that is it is the speech of some pratler neither learned nor elequent yea hee addeth what forehead or minde had they that thrust vpon vs such writings vnder the name of Augustine And the diuines of Louain say flatly it was none of his therfore with farre more credit to your cause might you haue let this testimony alone and neuer haue mentioned it But whosoeuer were the authour thereof no more can be grounded thereupon but that be thought it good to further the repentance of the party that hee should confesse his sinne that he had fallen into and offended Gods Church withal to the minister that by him he might be dealt withall by correption admonition or consolation as he saw good And the edge of his speech is not simply against such as did refuse to confesse their sinnes to Gods ministers but onely against such as refusing so to doe did not repent for he saieth si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerint and againe si in malo permanserint that is if they will not confesse them nor amend and if they continue in euill Besides if the words in the place quoted by you be well marked it wil therby sufficiently appeare in that there were then so many reasons that staied men as there by that authours wordes it seemeth there were from cōfessing to the priests that it was not then thought that so to confesse sinnes was so necessary as you would now pretend yours to be If it had beene either thought to be simply necessary by Gods law or it then had beene thought and knowen to be a set law of the Church to confesse sinnes in secret to the ministers why haue not you nor yet any of your side brought vs any anciēt doctor that euer vsed either of these reasons to perswade men vnto it Cyril in his 12. booke vpō Ioh. cap. 56. is the fourth man you cite for this purpose which place if you had euer read you should haue found him to set down this first as a most sure principle that only God is he that must loose a man from his sinnes for to whom else saieth he shall it be lawfull to deliuer transgressours of the law but vnto the authour of the Lawe himselfe Which position if it were receaued there would be smal hast made to your eare shrift But then indeede it followeth in him how then did Christ giue this diuine power to his Apostles Whereunto his answere is that he gaue it them because he gaue them the holy ghost because the holy ghost by thē forgaue sins which he sheweth the holy ghost did by vsing their ministry to baptise men and to bring them to repentance by rebuking of sinners and by shewing them fauour againe as Paul dealt with the man of Corinth So that you see his doctrine is there that men come to haue their sins forgiuen them by the holy ghosts vsing our ministry effectually to bring men to repentance where to make auricular confession to men of all their sinnes is not reckoned vp as anie meanes whereby in the Apostles or by the Apostles the holy ghost forgaue anie their sinnes but to preach the worde to minister the Sacraments and to vse the censures of the Church in due season are noted to bee the meanes Hee sendeth vs there you see to the example of Pauls dealing with the man of Corinth of
whose repentance and receauing againe into Gods Church and so to a liuelie hope of the forgiuenesse of his sinnes wee reade but that either Paul or anie other minister had him before them to bring him to this by auricular confession wee neither reade nor can beleeue and therefore Cyril is rather quite against you then any thing for you in this point in that place Now last of all is Hierom vpon the tenth of Ecclesiastes where all that he saieth is this if the Serpent the Deuill priuilie bite anie and infect him none being priuy thereunto with the poison of sinne if he that is strucken holde his peace and repent not nor will confesse his wounde to his brother or master the master that hath a tōgue to cure him easily cannot profitte him who of vs denie this that hee that will neither speake and repent nor thus by confession seeke for better physicke at the hands of the spirituall physitian then he cā giue himselfe cannot easily be profited by such a physitian Yea that more is we say and holde that hee that will neither repent betwixt God and himselfe nor yet seeke to those to shew his estate that are appointed to teach him how to repent is in a most fearefull case But yet againe we say that they that in such secret sinnes whereof Hierom plainely speaketh will with Dauid acknowledge their sinne vnto God and not hyde their iniquitie Psalm 32. but forsake it they shall haue mercie Prouerb 28. though they neuer bewraie those their sinnes to anie Priest or minister Neither hath Hierom nor any other of these fathers in any of these places saied any thing to the contrarie What are you therefore the nearer for anie thing that they haue saied to proue the necessity of vniuersall and speciall enumeration of all sinnes that can bee remembred with all the circumstances thereof in the eare of a Priest though otherwise neuer so well confessed to God and repented of Yea what haue any of them spoken in any of these places either to proue the necessity or vniuersality of your kinde of confession which are the thinges you should haue proued by them or else you proue nothing in question or to the purpose For let confession of sinnes vnto them be free as it was in their times and in such cases as mē cannot otherwise so well get ease remedy and comfort against their sins we are very well contented with them to perswade men that it is a very good and profitable way for them in sicknesse and in health to confesse vnto some discreete minister or ministers what sinnes they be that so trouble them that so aduise by them may be ministred vnto them accordingly And this is the vtmost that any of these places can haue so much as any shew to helpe you vnto which is as farre from yours as chalke is from cheese you hauing made it as you haue a matter of absolute necessity and hauing stretched it to such a full speciall recitall of all and that by all persons and sexes at an appointed time of the yeare as you haue also But enough of this matter now therefore let vs go on and see whither you haue anie better holde in the fathers for the other two pointes behinde The next is praying to Saints in paradise to helpe vs with their prayers For the which you alleadge onelie the names of foure Origen Chrysostome Augustine and Hierom of which there is not one indeede that in any of his vndoubted known works to be his that so much as mentioneth praying vnto them For whereas you here haue quoted vs three places of Origen for this your purpose the two later I cannot thinke were his As for the last out of his 8. booke of Ecclesiast there are no such bookes fathered vpon him either in any of his Tomes that I euer yet could see nor yet attributed vnto him by Tritenhemius who reckoneth vp al that he was acquainted withall of his And as for that you alleadge out of his second booke of Iob I graunt whosoeuer was authour of those tractes hee concludeth the second tract with a grosse popish prayer to Iob. But certaine it is those tracts or bookes were neuer Origens nor that prayer of his making or liking My reasons are these first the authour thereof sheweth himselfe an Arrian in the first tract Erasmus hath obserued that these of Iob were neuer but in latin whereas he wrote all his in Greek and lastly because he himselfe if that praier were his should be contrary to himselfe For against Celsus lib. 8. which bookes are his vndoubtedly he answering the arguments of Celsus that it cannot offend the high God if the inferiour Gods whom Celsus called daemones being his frends be worshipped with inuocation to prouoke them to sollicite mens causes with the high God which argument that heathen wretch there coūtenāceth with the fashiō in Princes Courts to sollicite the Prince by such as are about him euen for all the world as you vse to doe your praying to Saints telleth him that one God is to bee praied vnto in the name of Christ Iesus And as for the Saints and Angels saieth he though they be Gods frends yet onely God is to be pleased and please him and then also yee please these pag. 760. and 774. Now in the other place which is the first you cite nāely out of his 3. Homily vpon the Cāticles al that he saith sauouring any whit for this your purpose is this that hee saieth it is not inconuenient to say they pray for vs wherof likewise cap. 13. vpon Iosua and vpon the Epistle to the Romans he speaketh doubtfully and stammeringly as one not fully resolued that it was so and therefore confidently to be aduouched and taught which I thinke was the sowing of some seede towards this opinion of yours But who is so simple but he may see that though this were granted to be an vndoubted and certaine thing that they pray for vs yet thereupon it followeth not that we here must or may pray vnto them And that Origen himselfe neuer gathered so thereupon it may appeare sufficiently by his foresaied answer to Celsus But howsoeuer it is knowen well enough that Origen was not thought of the ancient fathers thēselues an authour of the credit that whatsoeuer he taught or thought ought streight to be receaued as true and sound For it appeares plainely in Epiphanius Tom. 2. haeresi 64. and in his epistle to Iohn of Hierusalē that his opinion of him was that he was not sound in doctrine and Hierom ad Oceanum saieth flatly of him thus I haue praysed Origen as an interpreter but not as a teacher his witte not faith and further he saieth of him Beleeue mee that haue experience his doctrines are poysoned disagreeing from the scriptures offring violence vnto them And Eusebius out of Aegesippus lib. 3. cap. 32. noteth that vnto those times about which he began to florish the Church remained
adoret let no man adore Mary I say not a woman but a man neither For this mistery is due to God then Angels are not capable of this glorie c. And therefore the same Epiphanius lib. 1. heres 38. writeth against the Caians for their inuocation of Angels It should seeme therefore that Petrus Gnapheus who was condemned for an heretique in the 5. generall Councell was infected with some of these heresies For about the yeare of the lord 470. as it appeareth in Nicephorus 15. booke and 28. Chapter he was busie in deuising and vrging how Mary should in the publicke Lyturgie not onely be honourably named but also called vpon prayed vnto But if we would know the antiquity of these heretiques and of you their schollers Epiphanius haeres 79. sendeth vs for the originall of their pedigree to the woman in Ieremies time that backd cakes to the Queene of heauen and powred forth their offerings to other Gods to prouoke the Lorde to anger and therefore he calleth for Ieremy to charme to stay those adorers of Mary that he wrote so against that they trouble the world no more In deede he saieth rouÌ„dly to those idolatrous women in his time in the person of God Doe they prouoke me to anger saieth the Lorde and not theÌ„selues to the coÌ„fusion of their owne faces And so goeth on in denouncing Gods heauy vengeance against them for the same cap. 2. Hier. And therefore seing you are so like them in the cause hereof take heede you be not enforced to be as like them in the punishment You haue heard out of Origens 8. booke to Celsus how like herein you are to that Idolater both for the matter of your practise and doctrine and for the reasons you haue to confirme the same and that he there shewes flatly that he thought that that was not the waie to please God but rather to displease him to leaue him and to runne to his Saints and Angels to entreate them to bee meanes vnto him for them And Chrysostome also who is the second man that here you would make vs beleeue is on your side to cleare himselfe of all such impietie de muliere Cananea hom 12. saieth thus Tell me ô woman how thou durst beeing a sinner goe vnto Christ I know what I doe saieth she as he makes her to answer him See the wisdome of the woman saith he she asketh not Iames Peter nor Iohn Yea in another homilie of his tom 5. de profectu Euangelii he further obserueth that when the Disciples came and spake for her he answered I am not sent but to the lost sheepe of Israel but when shee came her selfe that then shee had her request so thereby there labouring and in expresse wordes in that homily to encourage meÌ„ directly and immediately as plainly as we doe to make their praiers to Christ themselues and not by aduocates And as for Augustine the third man you name hee hath meetelie well alreadie cleared himselfe euen in the verie place you quote but to make the matter out of doubt let vs heare him somewhat further to speak for his full purgâ—â—ion in this point In his fiftie fiue Chapter de vera religione and in his 22. booke and 10. Chapter of the cittie of God hee plainely writeth that to builde either temple or altar vnto Saints or Angels then which nothing is more common with you is flatly vnlawfull and in the former of these places hee saieth that Saints are to be honoured for imitation but not for religion adding that which the highest Angell vvorshippeth that must the lowest man vvorshippe and in the other hee saieth that they neuer sacrificed nor builte temples to Saintes And in the place you cyted out of him hee saieth vvhich of the Bishoppes saied standing at the altar wee offer to thee Peter or Paul c. where in his 8. booke of the citty of God cap. 27. he vtterly condemneth as vnlawfull offering of any sacrifice to the Martyrs And yet more directly against you in his second booke against the epistle of Parm. c. 8. he writeth thus if Iohn should haue saied these things wrote I vnto you that you sinne not if any man sinne yee haue me for an aduocate with God and I wil entreate him for your sinnes as Parmenian in a certaine place saith he put the Bishop a mediatour betwixt the people God what good and faithfull Christian saieth he would haue suffered him yea who would haue taken him for an Apostle of Christ and not for a very Antichrist Ambrose also vpoÌ„ the first to the RomaÌ„s is as flat against any mediatours betwixt God vs besides Christ Iesus as any of these yea there he doeth as directly confute your ordinary reason of your getting the better to God by these as to the Prince by his Nobles as we telling you first that that is vnder the pretence of humility reuerence to the Prince to make your selues to the perill of your saluation guilty of high treason against him For it is to giue that honour that is due vnto the Prince vnto his Nobles thus to leaue the creatour to adore the creature and then further answering you that your reason holdeth not from Princes Courts on earth to Gods in heaueÌ„ For they are men saith he therfore to theÌ„ men must so come because otherwise they know not whom to trust but with God that knoweth al things to win his fauour Suffragatore non est opus sed mente deuotâ there is no neede of one to speake for vs but of a deuout mind And therefore he goeth on and saieth that such as yet will adore their fellow seruants or creatures turne the glory of God into the similitude of men c. as it followeth in the text Againe howsoeuer some frende of yours vnder the name of Athanasius hath caused one to speake in your language saying make intercession for me mistresse Ladie Queene of heauen yet Athanasius indeede to make it appeare how much he abhorred that impietie in his orations against the Arrians which all men know and confesse were his first oratione secundâ saieth Sancti non postulant a creato aliquo c. that is the holie seruants of God asked not of a creature to bee their helper Christ therefore whose help they craue is true God and then againe oratione tertiâ he writeth thus creatura non adorat creaturam c. the creature adores not the creature therfore Christ who is adored is god These arguments of his had not beene good neither would hee euer haue made them if he had thought it lawful to honour and adore Saints as you doe or as you would by fathering the former kinde of inuocation of Mary vpon him make men beleeue he did And indeede Paul taking it for a thing that could not be denied him RoÌ„ 10. that none might pray vnto any in whom he might not beleeue and it being most cleare that the
scriptures and all the ancient creedes grounded vpon the same togither with the very forme of our baptisme allowe vs onely to beleeue in God the father God the sonne and God the holy ghost vnanswerably thereupon it must needes followe that it is grosse idolatrie to pray vnto any other And so much in plaine tearmes hath Sedulius aboue one thousand yeares ago most flatly set downe vpon the first of the Romans saying Adorare alium praeter patrem filium spiritum sanctum impietatis crimen est that is to adore any beside the father the sonne the holy ghost is an vngodly wickednes Cyril also ad reginas de rectâ fide c. sendeth them that would obtaine their prayers to God the father in the name onely of Iesus Christ because solus naturâ verè est Deus he onely is by nature and in trueth God contra Iulianum lib. 6. he flatly saieth the holy martyrs neither doe we say to be Gods neue adorare consueuimus neither doe we vse to worship thē Yea Remigius who liued well nigh 900. yeares after Christ sheweth vpon the 96. Psalme that not onely images are not to be adored but he saieth plainely no nor an Angell is to be adored because of that warning of the Angell to the contrary in the Apocalips To conclude euen Hierom himselfe your owne fourth and last man whom I haue therefore kept to the last because many of you thinke that hee is much of your side against Vigilantius writing against the saied Vigilantius to one Ripacius cleareth himselfe to be farre frō this folly and blasphemy that you would make him an earnest procter for For there hee hath to shew his iudgement in this case writen thus non colimus adoramus we worshippe not and adore I say not the reliques of martyrs but neither sun moone Angels Archangels Cherubin Seraphin nor any name that is named either in this world or that which is to come beside the trinity for so he must be vnderstoode For immediately he addeth this reason least wee should serue the creature aboue the creatour who is blessed for euer We honour saieth he the relicks of the saints that we may adore him whose martyrs they be And good reason had all these fathers thus flatly to set downe their mindes against you For you know it is writen Dominum Deum tuum adorabis illi soli seruies that is thou shalt adore the Lorde thy God and him onely shalt thou serue Deut. 6. Matth. 4. and with this text Christ put the Deuill to silence when he would haue perswaded him to fall downe and worshippe him hee had nothing to replie against it I praie GOD you bee not growen in this point more obstinate and peeuish to withstand the doctrine of this text and more cunning and subtle to cauill against it for your owne defence then hee was I know some of you finding the Scriptures and fathers thus directlie to condemne adoration of the Saints though they maintaine still all your practise of praying vnto them yet haue not beene ashamed to write as it appeares in the censure of Colen printed there one thousand fiue hundreth sixty that amongst you it was neuer so much as heard that the Saints are to be adored for adoration is due onely to God Whereas they could not bee ignorant that their legends rosaries and other their bookes of deuotion publique and priuate are full both of the name and thing did they not knowe that the whole psalter is turned to the Virgin Mary and that therein it is writen venite adoremus eam come let vs adore her Howsoeuer they knew this or no they could not forget their olde saying of the Crosse beholde the woode of the Crosse whereon the saluation of the world hanged venite adoremus come let vs adore it If these will not serue to make them better to remember them selues let them reade their owne Antonin part 3. Tit. 12. cap. 8. and they shall finde him in plaine wordes to tell them that the Saints by the Pope by his canonizing of them are set forth vnto men not onely as an example of faith and holy life but also abomnibus adorandi in necessitatibus inuocandi that is of all to be adored and in necessities to be prayed vnto Wherein to say saieth he that the Pope erred were hereticall But this is like your other common shifts when you say you vse the Saints but as Mediatours of intercession and not of saluation which onely belongs to Christ and that you doe not giue them Latreian but Douleian that is as you expound the words not diuine honour but an inferiour honour not asking at their hāds that they should either giue you the good things you would haue or keepe frō you the euil that you would not haue the falshood and vanity whereof I haue both in my answere to the preface of your booke and also somewhat in this Chapter already bewrayed For let any man read ouer consider your praiers and practise and he shall finde that you make them mediatours of saluation and not onely of intercession though that onely if you did it being as it is a special part of the office of Christs mediatorship to be the very altar whereupon and whereby we must acceptably present these our spirituall sacrifices vnto his heauenly father hee being as he is of himselfe alone thorowly both able willing fully to execute his owne office you could not excuse cleare your selues of being guilty of high treason against Christ And he should further finde that you giue the diuinest honour that may bee that you doe directly beg all things euen at their hands that you can beg at Gods For it is vsual with you to sing to Mary salua eos quite glorificāt saue thē that glorify thee that succour the miserable help the weake refresh them that mourne you say to her Mary mother of grace mother of mercy protect vs frō the enemy receiue vs at the hour of death in the psalter now turned put forth by the deuout seruant of hers Bonauenture as some thinke you sticke not to vse all those speeches to her that in the psalmes are vsed to God himselfe and therefore you blush not to say vnto her Haue mercie vpon me O Lady according to thy great mercy according to the multitude of thy mercies blot out my iniquities But not onely thus haue you doubted about Mary but quite contrarie to your owne wordes when you would vse these shifts you deale with other Saints For you praie to Basil that he would looke downe vpon you from aboue change your whole life and you praie Athanasius to direct the holy people S. Cyprian to direct both your speech and life and who so readeth your speculum exemplonim your glasse of examples he shall finde there and in such other bookes of yours such stories tolde of things done by this Saint and that
testimony that he might haue such school masters as I haue saied to teach him herein somwhat to fauor you to speake of your side Irenaeus in his first book 24. chapter testifieth of the heretique Carpocrates that he was a great admirer of philosophy insomuch that to the images he made of Christ and of some of his Apostles he ioyned the images of Pythagoras Plato and Aristotle of whom hee learned to imagine that there was a purifying place after this life and so to proue purgatory out of that place of Matthew as you hearde before Montanus Paraclet did And the heretiques Heracleones as Augustine wryteth of them vsed ouer their deade oyle balme water and inuocation in the Hebrewe tongue Hereunto ioyne you Virgils 6 book of his Aeneidos lying visions you haue the right scholemasters that haue taught you al that fauour you in this point But concerning the places in Tertullian which you quote we need not thus answere you for they are not so pregnant for you as you imagined For the words you ground on in the first place are these spoken by him to the wife to teach her how in this point to behaue her selfe towards her dead husband pro animâ eius oret refrigerium interim adpostulet ei in primâ resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius that is let her pray for his soule and in the meane time desire refreshing for him and felowshippe in the first resurrection and let her offer alwaies when the yeare day commeth for his sleeping which are the words as Beatus Rhenanus confesseth that he hath so set downe acknowledging that he found it far otherwise in all examples before Againe not onely this obscurity of Tertullians wordes and the vncertainety what they were disableth this place from being of any force for you to ground vpon but also vnles you must haue it granted that euery womans husband to whom he gaue this counsel was in purgatorie wherof there is no ground at all in his wordes in that booke but rather the contrary whereby it should seeme that he spake of such as were gone before in peace to the Lord his words if they were these proue not your praying to relieue soules there And the offering that he lastly speaketh of was either the offering of thankes to God for his quiet rest and sleeping or an offering or giuing of almes to the poore in token of ioy for the same and to prouoke them to be thākeful therfore also as you heard me before note the fashion was when the tracts of Iob fathered vpon Origen were writen out of the third tract of the same and not as you woulde haue it taken an offering of your propitiatory sacrifice in your masse for his sinnes For hee saieth for his falling a sleepe and not for his sinnes and hee willeth the woman to offer and not that she should get the Priest to doe it And in answering of this place your other is also answered for there onely he saieth oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitiis annuâ die facimus that is wee offer oblations for the dead for their birth daies euery yeares day For in that he expresly saieth pro natalitiis for their birth daies it is euident that he cannot nor may not be vnderstood of any other oblation but of thankefulnesse and reioicing But this offering for their birth daies Beatus Rhenanus vpon this place in his notes saieth was heathenish and afterwards was condemned and abolished by the Nicene councell and others And yet for any thing that these words of Tertullian enforce in this place he speaketh of no other oblations for the dead but for their birth daies so that long ago the date and credit of this testimony and fashion was abrogated And lastly it is not to be forgotten that he himselfe within few lines after these words speaking of this fashion of sundry others that there also he had spoken of plainely confesseth that these thinges had no grounde in the scriptures but onely by tradition That which other of your fellowes alleadge to this purpose out of Tertullian in his exhortation to charity may receiue the same answere with these for it is euident that booke also was writen in his Montanisme for there hee is against second marriage as in the first and so against Paul Romans 7. 1. Cor. 7. and with Montanus and the words are no more pregnant to ground praier to relieue soules in purgatory then the former were Now next is Cyprian who was a bishop in that City wherein sōetimes Tertullian had liued in him for your praier for the dead you would haue vs read his Epistle ad plebem Furnensem in his first booke I am sure you meane the ninth Epistle of that booke writen as it appeareth there ad plebem Furnilanorum though either you could not or would not to put your reader to a little more paines to seeke it out tell vs so much But hauing found it and read it howsoeuer you were perswaded of it we finde little or nothing there that can doe you any good for onely there of a decree made in some Africane Synode before his time he groundeth his perswasion to that people forasmuch as one Victor had contrary to that decree made one Heminius Faustinus minister executour of his wil and testament therefore to stay others from daring any more so to violate that decree to the calling away the ministers from attendance of their ministry that they should execute that decree against that their brother Victor departed which was that for this cause there should be no offering for him nor sacrifice for his falling a sleepe For saieth he he is not worthy to be named in the praier of the Priest that wil so cal away the ministers or Priests from the altar therefore seeing this is Victors fault let there be no oblatiō with you for his sleeping nor in his name any deprecatiō frequēted in the Church Doe you thinke in good earnest Master Albine that if Cyprian had thought that his brother Victors soule had bene in such paines in purgatory as you teach are there and that these were the ordinarie meanes to ease soules there that for so small a matter as this the breaking of this positiue law which with you is vsually broken if in your sence these things were to be vnderstoode of oblation sacrifice and praier for the ease of the party so departed from vnder the punishment vpon him for his sinnes that Cyprian either might lawfully could without too too much cruelty or would so without all mercy and charity perswade to depriue a brother departed of these things You cannot be so without reason as once to thinke so The execution of this Canon against Victor was but onely a note of some disgrace ignominy laied vpon him the better to make others after to regarde that Canon and not any denying of his soule any thing so necessary
contrariety betwixt the saied two bookes themselues by the authours crauing to be borne withall and by his seeming to iustify in those bookes cōtrary to the Canonicall scriptures indeede sundry things Secondly let any mā read 1. Mach. 7. 12. the 2.4.3 and 13. and he shall thereby most plainely see that in those times whereof those bookes containe the story there were wonderfull grosse corruptions directly contrary to the lawe of God crept in amongst the Iewes from the Gentiles and yet securely practised of them Thirdly this is to be considered that neither Iosephus writing the whole story of the Machabees nor yet the fift Chapter of the first booke where the same story is handled maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas Fourthly if we looke to his fact indeede as the authour setteth it forth in Greeke we shall finde that the trueth thereof was and is onely this that he finding two thousand slaine that tooke vpon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites without commandement of their Captaine of an ambitious minde to get themselues a name that vnder their garments they had things hid consecrated to the Gods of the Iannites euery man then seeing that that was the cause they were slaine therupon first hauing called his people together he exhorted them by that example to keepe themselues from sinne and to giue glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vpon them and to pray that the rest perished not for that their sinne be like hauing in remembrance the story of Achan Iosua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done he made a collectiō of two thousand drachmaes sent them to Hierusalem to offer a sinne offering which if he did to appease the Lordes wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest as it did against the Israelites at the besiege of Ai Iosua the seuēth for the like sinne in Achan as it may be hee did hitherto hee did but well and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie and seuenth of Iosua but here he staied not but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 discoursing with himselfe of the resurrection hee prayed for the dead and sought to make reconciliation for their sinne that so they might haue their part in the resurrection of the godlie for whom very godly hee thought that there was great hope layed vp But if hee had remembred that hee had neither commandemēt example nor promise in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe and that the Lord had saied You shall not doe euerie one that which seemeth good in his owne eies but that which I commaund thee that onely doe thou shalt adde nothing thereunto nor take ought there from Deut 12. he should not haue followed his owne discourse imagination thus to haue done without all warrāt from the word of the Lorde In many places of the olde testament he might haue remembred that of purpose the solemnity of burials are spokē of yet that neuer there is any mention either of any such thing cōmanded there to be done or remēbred to haue beene done yea that Tobias the elder though there be much saied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him And it is worth the noting that from the time of Iudas Machabeus it cānot be proued by any story after vntil now of very late daies that any such thing was by any godly man attempted againe Further yet how can this serue to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory seeing the papists thēselues confesse that there was no purgatory before the comming of Christ that they that die in deadly sinne as it appeareth by the story these did go not at all thither but streight to hell Lastly for any thing I can see in the authours words thorowly considered it may be saied for his credit that he sheweth that Iudas Machabeus did thus that he did very well honestly to thinke hope of the resurrection very godly to be perswaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly but that vpon these cogitations he did thus for these he doeth not at all iustifie him but rather shew that therein he followed his owne reason and discourse And this being thus all the strength of this place is lost For an historiographer may and doeth set downe often aswell the faults as commendable things of famous mē that they write of Wherefore to cōclude this point for all this it remaineth firme and sound that I saied before they can neither by scripture nor any sound ancient writer approue their sacrificing offering or praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie Wherefore to go on now we are come to examine Origēs testimonies which are two onely here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine namely his 12 Homily vpon Ieremy and his 8. booke vpon the Romans cap. 11. in which places let them be read neuer so often there shal not be foūd so much as mētion of prayers for the dead indeede in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire but as I haue shewed before in the first entrance into this point when I repeated the words of the authour in these places none at all of the popish purgatorie For in the first he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay woode and stubble which hee telleth vs is God who is a consuming fire of such things and in the other he speaketh expresly of the fire and torments of hell wherein saieth he he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apostolique doctrine reserueth himselfe to be purified Thus thou maiest see good reader that which I admonished thee of before how they proue praying for the deade by mention of a purging fire though it be mentioned neuer so diuersly and farre from their sence as in these two places it is most euident it is whereby thou maiest see how with out all conscience they seeke to abuse thee with fond reasons and ambiguity of words Belike though the Scripture saie in hell there is no redemption yet Master Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of these places Damascenes tale of Gregories getting Traians soule out of hell by praier and that Saint Frauncis and others also haue done and now can doe the like or at least that he and his fellowes haue beene fowely deceiued that before now made it a distinct place from hell In earnest let them take heede whom they haue perswaded hitherto doe hereafter that they go but thither and that they so they will take order they may be well paide for it will helpe them to ease there and out in the ende that they finde not indeede the popish purgatorie they dreamt of in the ende to proue nothing else but the fire
wordes well you shall finde that hee counted the waie to heauen straight as well in respect of religion as life and that there is nothing more vsuall with Dauid then indifferently without any such nice distinction to vse these wordes waies and pathes both in respecte of the one and the other you might easily perceiue if you were anie thing conuersant in his Psalmes looke vpon Christs time whereunto he had an especiall eie when hee vsed these wordes and you shall finde that true religion was a thing more geyson and rare then in the worlde and had fewer followers then an holy and a vertuous life For eueÌ„ many of the Pharisees and Philosophers made great shew of that that therefore to leade vs rather to thinke that in respect of Religion then maners he had vttered those wordes immediately thereupon he addeth beware of false Prophets And as for Dauid if your argument be grounded vpon that that he placeth the word waies in the first place and pathes in the later if you marke him well you shall oftentimes finde him to inuert that order in the Psalmes And Psalme 109. because you should plainly see that he referreth waies as wel to maners as to ReligioÌ„ he saieth take from me the way of lying and teach me the way of thy statutes And considering that you cannot be ignorant that Idolatry and Paganisme in Christs time was more common then Christs Religion therefore had 10000. that tooke it for true religion in comparison of one that tooke Christs so I wonder that you euer durst thus expound Christs wordes For by your expositioÌ„ he tolde them that it was better for them to embrace paganisme then his Religion for that was the common beaten way and his was but a small bie-path Againe in Liberius his time when it was an hard matter to finde one true Catholique for an 100. Arrians insomuch that Constantine saied vnto Liberius that he alone fauoured Athanasius Theodor. Eccles Hist lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule Liberius did well in that seeing Arrianisme to be the common waie and his ancient Religion that then was but as a bie-path wherein few walked that he yeelded his subscriptioÌ„ to Arrianisme Indeede it should seem that this Pope Liberius was of your minde so long you care not I am sure as that you may haue a Pope on your side Wel yet if you had but remembred that the Turkish religioÌ„ is at this day hath beene a long time coÌ„mon to moe then your owne religioÌ„ is or euer was it might haue staied you froÌ„ teaching meÌ„ to measure religion by the coÌ„monnes of it or multitude of followers least you should haue so persuaded them to Turcisme But it may be you had rather haue it so seeing in coÌ„parisoÌ„ therof ours is but a narrow path wherein few doe walke then that they should follow vs. If your skil in interpreting of the scriptures in prescribing rules for the direction of men be no better then you haue shewed in this you may very well be a Doctour and great master in your blinde and ignorant kingdome of Popery but in the kingdome of Christ there is little hope that there will euer any great reckoning be made of you The XLI Chapter NOw to turne to the partition that we haue vpon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel and vpon the tenth of Iohn it is plaine that we are the flockes of weake and sickelie sheepe and your disciples are the sheepe that runne this waie and that waie astraie those that are our a Howsoeuer that title is due vnto them they take it not vnto theÌ„ ill Prelats take vpon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris but vnto your ministers the titles of deuouring wolues may be applied b Onely of such as haue made shipwracke of conscience without anie scrupulositie of coÌ„science for you watch to none other intent but to make the sheepe runne out of the folde and to deuour them because that our pastours haue not taken care to keepe them And although they be not excusable aswell for their silence as for their naughty liues I see not your Patriarchs zealous manifesters amende much themselues the faults that they finde in vs for besides the true and certaine experience that wee haue had by the triall that we haue seene to our cost in this Realme within these fiue or six yeares c Penned then by such that had taught their peÌ„s to write lies I haue read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holie Bishops which doe not altogither redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins successour in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneua of whom such things are preached abroad that if the one halfe of them be true d Neither wil â—e nor any of vs so compare our selues he is scant so good a man as S. Iohn Baptist And because I would not haue you to mislike theÌ„ for their religioÌ„ I wil not alleage to verify this any Catholick author but soÌ„e of Luthers successors your first fouÌ„der who taught you to write so learnedly I would say railingly against the church of Rome Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the LutheraÌ„s in the * Jn his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif writen in Latin book that I haue alreadie noted doeth openlie accuse the saied Beza of great infamy that he did not onlie content e Heat of conteÌ„tion made the man too credulous and so beleeued your malitious parasites that most impudently and falsly haue forged these things of him the fancie of his mind with leading a luxurious a liceÌ„tious life to staine his vow with a bilt of adulterous loue but that that is worse hee himselfe hath set forth in writing all his lasciuious acts the which saieth hee f His lasciuious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours whereof he hath publickly in printe testified his repentance mislike since he was ours he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument to manifest his sinne to the whole sight of the worlde And in that verie booke hee doeth say that Beza who as I haue tolde you is a Bishop of the holie Cittie of Geneua is an infamous monster whose naughtie life any man may reade set forth by him selfe in his owne Epigrams and notwithstanding saieth he to heare him speake you would thinke hee vvere Saint Iohn Baptist for he can talke of nothing but of his holie life This same very minister in the booke where he writeth these things he doeth laie to g The more shame for him for it is a monstrous and notorious slander Bezaes charge that he tooke with him to Geneua another mans wife without the knowledge of her husband whose name was Candida h Will an argument from one to al follow with papists and yet this one not proued such an one neither
that which he should this marke is euident vpon them and not vpon vs. But if by the common knowen catholicke church of Christ that hee talketh of here and alwaies else he vnderstand as it is apparent that hee doeth their Roman church that now is most beggerly still hee beggeth that almes that neuer an honest and wise man in the world would giue him For in all these points here named by him that Synagogue a long time hath taught and doeth still so contrary to the true and chast spouse of Christ that though nether seditiously nor contentiously yet vehemently and earnestly it is the part of all skilfull painfull and faithfull ministers of the Lord to cry out against her and her so doing And thus onely haue we and doe we labour to manifest vnto the world their corruptiō in doctrine in these points least thereby to their perdition they should be seduced by them Otherwise whatsoeuer he saieth neither he nor all his faction shall euer he able to proue against vs that we either deny any thing or hold otherwise of any point here reckoned vp by him then we haue most sound and good warrant for both out of the scriptures and out of the ancientest and soundest monuments of antiquity But where as he saith that we flatly deny that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible church to bee heard speake perceaued or seene hee shamefully and vntruely reporteth y◠of vs. Onely cōcerning the visibility or not visibility of Christs church this wee holde and teach that who be the right members thereof whereof properly she doeth consist it is not discerneable by humane sence but knowen onely vnto God and vnto those to whom God giueth spirituall sences to discerne it withall but if otherwise by the church of Christ here vpon earth be vnderstoode generally all those that by outwarde profession seeme vnto men to be thereof then we hold and confesse that Christ hath alwaies had here vpō earth since the beginning and wil haue to the ende a visible spouse and church to be both heard speake perceiued seene though not alwaies alike nor of al sorts kinde of men as I haue shewed at large in the first and fourth chapters of my answere to Albine The onely thing that we deny is that it alwaies hath beene and euer must be so visible and apparent both for multitude and gouernment that euery one should be able therby not only to discerne it but frō time to time downe frō Christ to the ende of the world to name the principall persons by whose orderly succession one to another wtout interruption it hath bene cōtinued in one place or other Now hereupon to infer that wee simply deny it to be heard seene or perceiued argueth that they that doe so are growen so grosse that they can neither heare see nor perceiue that there is any difference betwixt the maner of being of a thing the simple being therof Iohn that neuer taught that the Church of Christ here vpō earth should neither be heard seen or perceiued yet teacheth Re. 12. that she would be driuē by persecution of the dragō into the wildernes where for a time in cōparison that she was before she should be hiddē Christ that hath taught vs that hel gates shal neuer preuaile against his church Mat. 16. yet foresheweth that towards his secōd cōming true faith should hardly be found vpō earth Luke 18. And doe we not read 2 Thessalonians 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end that before that day there shall be a great departing from the faith which by that which we read Reuelations 17 and 18. we may vnderstand shal be so great and so farre preuaile that the whore of Babylon there figuring vnto vs Antichrist and his kingdome shall haue vniuersality and all outward pompe that may be so on her side that shee shall make kings and people yea all nations drunke with the wine of her fornications During the fulfilling of which prophesies if it bee hard for some either to heare or see the Church or to vnderstand where shee is so that they cannot name the persons successiuely that she consisteth of no maruell For distance of time and place and ignorance or vnfaithfulnesse in Croniclers ioyned with a speciall care that Antichrist would alwaies by all likelyhoode haue to keepe from men all meanes to make thē to haue knowledge of these things least therby in the end he should fall into his cōsumption in respect of sundry former times and vs that liue now might make this impossible And yet he that should say so doeth not simply say as he here chargeth vs. But Gods name be blessed for it the Church yet was neuer so driuen into the wildernesse by the dragon or oppressed by Antichrist but as I haue shewed in my fourth Chapter of my foresaied answere to Albine some haue so heard seene and perceiued where she was and who were her true mēbers at al times that there was neuer time or state of the Church so bad but that we are able to nāe some of her frēds and where they liued or died in the profession of her trueth against antichristian abhominations As for the other points here reckoned vp by him gētle reader though he would make thee beleeue that they are such as in euery point as they teach thē now haue alwaies before beene taught of the true Catholicke church of Christ it is nothing so as in great part I haue shewed in answering of Albine as others thorowly vniuersally haue shewed of them all in seueral bookes writen against them for their Antichristiā doctrine therein Howbeit least by his words in the meane time whiles thou gettest leasure to peruse what we haue writen cōcerning these points thou shouldest cōceiue worse of our doctrine thē in any shew we deserue vnderstand that we preach against none of Christs sacraments neither doe we deny any sacrament of his in that sence to be a sacrament that he appointed it neither doe we deny Christs reall true most certain presence in the eucharist to the soule of the right receiuer onely a grosse presence of his body to the mouth of euery receauer fancied by thē cōtrary both to scripture the nature of a sacramēt of Christ himselfe is the presence that there we deny Indeed we as zealously as we can preach against their masse denying it to be any propitiatory sacrifice either for quicke or dead much lesse for both because we haue learned out of the epistle to the Hebrewes that only Christ is cōsecrate of his father as the fit Priest of the new testament in his owne person once for all to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the redemption of mankind that we learne by the words of the institution of this sacrament that it was neuer instituted to repeate that but with faith and thankesgiuing to make a commemoration thereof and rather to offer and deliuer Christ to vs thē
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34
this as though you meant as honestly as any man could desire in this 33. Cha. of yours you tel vs that you would haue the Scriptures interpreted by him that did indite thē and therfore you alleage that 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecy in the scripture is of any priuate motiō or interpretatiō For the prophecy came not in old time by the wil of mā but holy mē of God spake as they were moued by the holy ghost wherupō you insinuate vnto vs that you would haue thē interpreted by the directiō of the same holy ghost which we are very well contented wtal For indeed that onely interpretation is sound and good that commeth from thence and that is alwaies to be accounted to proceed but from a priuate motion that hath not ground from thence though otherwise neuer so great and publique persons and neuer so manie deuise it receiue it and hold it neuer so long And therefore it is that we tell you that your interpretations though they be countenanced with Popes doctours and councels and what els you will yet are to be reiected as priuate interpretations vnles they be warranted by the testimony and authority of the holy Ghost But thē say you you challēge this holy ghost to lead you to the true sence how shal we beleeue that it dwelleth more in you thē in al the vniuersal church from Christs passiō to this time I answere you that we take no such thing vpō vs. For we say if you vnderstand by the Church you speake of Christs Church which hath frō thēce cōtinued vnto this day it hath neuer bene destitute of the same spirit of God that now leadeth vs into all trueth otherwise if thereby you vnderstād onely your own Synagogue of Rome as the state of it hath beene these later 500. or 600. years at the least we say as it hath forsaken the true Christ and hath set vp another of an office of her owne deuising so hath shee beene destitute of his spirit and hath beene guided but by an humane foolish spirit But then you aske vs where this spirit did rest before we were borne Wherunto you thinke wee can make no other answere but that 〈◊〉 dwelt in the heartes of the faithfull And is not this a good answere What fault can you finde in it Is it not true Doeth not Gods spirit dwell indeede in such yea and in none but such Now whereas you thinke that if you should aske vs againe where were those faithfull ones our answere onelie would bee where the holy Ghost was and that wee could giue you no directer answere and so thereat you take your pleasure saying that that is to plaie handie dandie c though if wee should answere you no otherwise we might doe so with better reason then your Collier in Hosius so much commended by him and some of you else might answere as he did who when he was asked how he did beleeue answered as the Church beleeueth and being demanded how the Church beleeued answered as I beleeue For the Scripture doeth expressely binde vs when wee are called to answere for our faith that wee should yeelde a reason thereof 1. Pet. 3. and so it bindeth vs not to bee alwaies able to make demonstration who bee the faithfull and where they dwell from time to time yet you vnderstand well enough if you were disposed that wee both can and haue giuen you a more particuler answere and that wee haue tolde both the names of the most famous persons and also where they and their followers haue liued and dwelt that beleeued as wee doe and therefore had the holie Ghost as well as wee But to let your gibing go if in earnest you would haue it tried whither in interpreting the Scriptures you or wee haue the holie Ghost and so consequently whither you or wee bee liker these heretiques you speake of in misinterpreting the Scriptures your interpretations and ours must bee examined which will stande best with the rest of the Scriptures wherein we are sure the holie Ghost hath spoken and so they whose interpretations are found best to agree therewith sentence must bee giuen on their side that they haue the holie Ghost and that the other haue it not For Chrysostome writing of the holie Ghost gaue this rule to trie whither Montanus and Manicheus had this spirit or no as they bragged and hereby hee proueth that Christ taught by this spirit because hee confirmed his doctrine out of the Lawe and the Prophets whereas the false teachers could not doe so Christ himselfe also by his owne example hath taught vs when the question is betwixt two about the sence of a sentence of Scripture yea though hee that bringeth the wrong sence be the verie Deuill himselfe that this is the next best and ordinariest waie to stoppe his mouth and to make it appeare that hee hath brought a wrong sence to see whither it will stande with some other plaine place of Scripture or no. For when the Deuill had alleadged the ninetie one Psalme in this sence that the meaning thereof was that though Christ should throwe himselfe downe head-long yet his fathers promise was that hee should take no harme because by this sence sathan would haue perswaded him vpon presumption vpon his fathers protection to haue tempted him Christ proueth that that could not bee the sence of the place because it was writen as it is Deut. 6. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God And with this answere sathan as cunning and malitious as he was gaue ouer to replie any further for the iustifying of his sence Math. 4.7 So also Iohn 5. in that great controuersie touching the person and office of the Messias when as the ground thereof was that his enemies had falsely interpreted the prophesies concerning him yet Christ for the determination thereof and to make it appeare whither they or hee brought the truer interpretation thereof saieth Search the Scriptures And therefore when Paul had preached the Gospell at Berea it is noted to the commendation of certaine men there that they searched the Scriptures daiele whither those things were so by that meanes labouring to satisfie themselues in this great question whither Paul or the Scribes and Pharisees had the spirit of God in interpreting the Scriptures concerning the Messias And this course all the ancient fathers haue followed as appeareth plentifully in their workes in the confuting of those heretiques that you speake of and all other and consequently in determining whither they or themselues had the direction of the holy Ghost in interpreting the Scriptures And therefore they haue giuen vs rules to helpe vs in this case as for example Tertullian against Praxeas hath giuen vs this Fewer places must bee expounded by the more Augustine this The circumstance of the Scripture is woonte to giue light and open the meaning in his booke of Questions quaest 69. Darke places are to be expoūded by more plaine places that is the
our redemption vpon the Crosse In taking therfore bread a part calling it his body brokeÌ„ afterwards wine and tearming it his bloud shed for many to the remission of their sins it was his purpose that by the vse of this sacrament vntill his coÌ„ming againe his Church should set forth his death and passion and so the separation of his body bloud the one froÌ„ the other you by this your deuise inuented for the maintenaÌ„ce of your Helena transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ make it to serue to a quite contrary end naÌ„ely to teach the coniunctioÌ„ stil of his body and bloud together and so to be a sacrament in effect to deny his death passion Of you therfore it may again most iustly be said that once Christ said of your right forefathers the Scribes and Pharisees in his time you are they y strein a gnat and swalow a camel and that for your owne traditions make no reckoning of the commandements of God Mat. 15. 29. Mar. 7. And certaine it is that whiles you and others of whoÌ„ you haue learned al these ceremonies of yours haue takeÌ„ vpon you thus to adde vnto Christs ordinance of baptisme such a nuÌ„ber of needles ceremonies especially vrging theÌ„ and vsing them as you doe al these welâ— therupoÌ„ directly follow you seeke to make the day light of the new Testament euen as darke as the night of the old by your new fouÌ„d figures and types you strongly lead meÌ„ to think that the simplicity of Christs institution of this sacrament was not decent and sufficiently ful of maiesty for the dignity of such a sacrament you by the multitude and pompe of your solemne ceremonies darken and obscure these things that are essential necessary thereunto indeed you take the effects inward graces apperteining to the right vse of baptism froÌ„ it coÌ„municate theÌ„ wtout other commaÌ„dement or promise from God to things but of meÌ„s inueÌ„tion lastly forcibly you thereby occasion meÌ„ to think that the integrity fulnes of this sacrament dependeth vpon these Howsoeuer therfore you would seeme from sundry places in Aug. here quoted by you to fetch credit for them yet these things being true which I haue saied as they are they well considered seeing in Augustines time it is certaine that neither there were so many nor those that were so superstitiouslie were then vrged or vsed we may be sure that hee would if he were now aliue to see and vnderstand all these thinges most vehemently write and speake against you therein For speaking but of the rites and ceremonies and the maner of vsing of them that were in his time hee greatly shewed his dislike then both of the multitude and maner of pressing them vpon men saying Hoc nimis doleo c. I cannot but extreamly sorrow for this that many things which most holesomly are commaunded in the diuine books are lesse cared for and all things are full of so many presumptions Epi. 119. And further he addeth in the same Epistle touching the same quamuis ista contra fidem non sint c. and though these things be not against faith yet wheras the mercy of god would haue religion free burdened with most few and most manifest sacraments to be obserued these with seruile burdens to presse it that more tollerable is the state of the Iewes who although they knowe not the time of their liberty yet they are subiect to the burdens of the law and not to humane presumptions and therefore his opinion in the ende is flat of all such that assoone as may bee without all doubt they be to be cut off in the same Epistle also Yea Pope Stephanus as he is cited of Gratian dist 63. Quia sancta speaking of humane orders aboue the election of Popes saieth plainely that if any of his predecessours did some things which then might be faultles and after they were turned into errour and superstition which is the cause of these your ceremonies which we mislike in you most flatly sine tarditate antiquâ cum magnâ authoritate destruantur a posteâ—s that is without any slacknes and with great authority let them of them that come after be destroied which assertion of his he doeth ground vpoÌ„ the example of good Ezechias in breaking the brasen serpeÌ„t which Moses had made c. And whereas you vnder your Tridentine curse would binde all churches to the strict obseruing of all these your solemne ceremonies you know or at least should that that is contrary to the ancient doctrine of Christian liberty in such things and to the practise and experience of the primitiue Church Annicet and Polycarp the East Church and the West you know a long time freely differed about the time of the obseruation of Easter and yet pacem saieth Irenaeus in vniuersâ ecclesiâ c. that is both parts throughout the whole church kept and maintained christian peace Euseb lib. 3. cap. 23. and so likewise there hee shewes that there had beene a long time great difference about the fast before Easter both for the time of the coÌ„tinuance and otherwise yet that thereby rather in his opinion the vnity of faith was coÌ„mended then hindred And of Gregories answere to Leander touching the dipping of the baptized once or thrise the answere being as it was is reported by your owne Gratian de consecr dist 4. that howsoeuer the party was once or thrise dipped it was to be counted baptised you might learne that there is no such necessity as you imagine to haue generally throughout the whole church of Christ one precise forme of rites ceremonies to be kept that touch lesse the substaÌ„tial parts of the sacrament then this did That Gregory could say to fortifie that answere of his in vnâ fide nihil officit sanctae ecclesiae consuetudo diuersa that is the diuersity of custome or fashioÌ„ doeth not hurt the church continuing in one faith And our Cronicles doe plainely testify that neither Eleutherius bishop of Rome about the yeare 180. though king Lucius here sent vnto him for the Roman lawes to frame his people by would binde him thereunto nor yet the foresaied Gregory answering Augustine the Monks question would tie him then for the ordering of the church here to the Ceremonies and customes of Rome But the first sent Lucius for his direction to the lawes of God being without exception and not to the RomaÌ„ laws which might he confesseth be reproued and the other in his answere to Augustines third demaund how it came to passe that the faith being but one the ceremonies and customs were so diuers as that there was one maner of masse at Rome an other in FraÌ„ce wils him without respect of place out of many churches to chuse the best orders And who so will reade Socrates 5. booke and the 18.19.20.21 22. Chapters of the same he shall there finde not onely in a number of things diuerse fashions rites
and ceremonies noted by him to haue bene in the churches of Christ insomuch that in the 21. Chapter not onely he writeth that altogither truely and in al obseruances of godly praiers two churches could not be found that did fully agree amongst themselues but also that this notwithstāding the vnity of faith christiā peace was preserued maintained amōgst them The like may be seene in Zozomens 7. booke 29. Chapter Your owne Tridentine Catechiser of your parish Priests could see as I noted before that touching dipping the party to be baptized in water pouring it vpon him or sprinkling him with it so that euery one follow therein that order that hee seeth in vse in the Church wherein hee is it is not materiall which way be vsed for which of them soeuer be vsed so saieth he this sacrament may rightly be ministred So much the stranger is it that both you here and he there your whole Tridentine councel should so peremtorily seeke to bind all churches and persons to the strict keeping and obseruing of all your foresaied rites and Ceremonies in the ad ministring of the same Further cōcerning this point I must tell you that for your pleasure I hauing turned to these places which you quote for this purpose as I finde by comparing of yours with them that they mētiō you haue many that they speake neuer a word of in these places as namely your consecrating of your water and Chrisme so lōg before your dealing with the party at the church dore your putting of salt into his mouth your dressing his nostrels and eares withspettle and your giuing him a waxe cādle burning into his hand so thereby and by view of some other places in them I plainely see that you haue now giuen ouer the vse of some which then were vsed vpon the like ground that the rest were which you would seeme to haue from them For first Tertullian in his booke de coronâ militis which is the second place you quote as there he mentions thrise dipping renouncing of the Deuill his pompe and Angels which you would seeme to allow and vse with him so he saieth that being taken from out of the water we tast before hand the temper of milke and honie and from the time of our baptisme for a weeke we absteine frō daily washing and all these doeth he ground a like saying Harum aliarum disciplinarum c. that is of these disciplines if thou requirest the law of the scripture thou shalt finde none tradition shall be pretended to be the authour custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer yet you haue left these two last long ago for any thing that I can learne And Augustine an other of your authours in this case in three of the places named by you mentiōs exufflation which you haue giuen ouer as he doeth some other that you retaine And the same authour vpon the 65. Psalme shewes that in their exorcisme they vsed fire because it is writē in the Psalm passing through fire and water thou shalt come to a refreshing and in his 4. booke ad cathecumenos de Symbolo lib. 4. cap. 1. he saieth that before baptisme was vsed beside the Catechisme exorcisme praier and canticles in sufflation sackcloth bowing of the neck humility of the feet And Hierom vpon the 55. of Esay and against the Luciferians shewes further that then was vsed the tasting of wine and hony Wherefore if the doctours and fathers mentioning of some of your ceremonies binde you to thinke the vse thereof lawfull and necessarie still why should not their authoritie bee of as great force for these which you see they ground aswell as they doe the other And if their mentioning and thus grounding of these notwithstanding you will be at liberty to leaue these why may not we aswell be at our libertie to leaue off some of the other that we finde most needles and most to haue beene abused by you to obscure and darken the simple institutiō of this sacramēt Wil you follow the fathers as farre as you list and leaue them when you list and may no body but you doe so Moreouer in looking vpon this occasion into the monuments of antiquity and the writings of the ancient fathers I must needes aduertise thee Christian reader that I finde great variety in the enumeration of ceremonies about this sacrament in them and likewise great oddes betwixt the opinion and conceite that some of the fathers shewe they had of them from that that others of as good credit as they had whereby it is euident not only that they were not vsed alike al in euery place but in some places and times more and in some lesse but also that some vsed them to one ende and some to another So that no certaine rule either for the ceremonies themselues or for the maner or ende of the vse of them can be deduced from thence Whereupon it must needes follow that for any thing writen by the ancient fathers hereof so that the essentiall parts and things belonging hereunto which haue expresse warrant from the institution thereof be obserued first and then next according to the practise and example of the Apostles and the times next after them necessary instruction and explanation to and of the right vse thereof with conuenient praiers and thankesgiuing meete to be vsed in such an action bee vsed and that also in due time and place by to before fit persons any Church of Christ in any kingdome by the prouinciall authority that it hath may freely reiect so many of the other rites ceremonies as it shall thinke good and likewise reteine so many of them as she findeth may fitly bee reteyned for order and comelinesse without placing any opiniō of necessity holinesse or of merit in them And therefore forasmuch as our Churches carefully haue taken this course in these three points and follow the same in trueth there is nothing that these fathers that you haue named consent vpon about the administring of this sacrament but we fully doe obserue the same And here in Englād especially what fault can you find Of the 5. things your fathers mentiō we reteine vse though not with any superstitious intentiō as you do 2 of thē the rest we haue cut of according both to S. August aduise your pope Stephanus iudgement before noted because the multitude before was too great for the time of the Gospel they were growen into grosse abuse amongst you No essential or necessary thing to bee done is omitted with vs and wee haue besides fully inough for the time of the new Testament wherin we liue in which time it is more likely in such ceremonies rites and fashions for vs to erre rather in retaining too many then in abolishing too many But because neither you shal say nor your reader thinke y these fathers whose names you bring vs to countenance al your ceremonies which you vse about baptisme