and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
and brought vp in this realme in schooles places where good learning hath bene taught so that he might haue bene a good instrument in this common wealth and Gods Church but contrary to his bringing vp his friendes expectation hope that this Church might haue conceaued of him like an vnnaturall man to his countrey degenerated from an English man an Apostata in religion a fugitiue from this realme vnloyal to his Prince hath not onely fled to the man of Rome an aduersarie to Christ and his doctrine but hath gotten a courage from that Romaniste with certaine other his sectaries to come into this realme againe to vndermine the Gospell of Christ to seduce Gods people and withdrawe her Maiesties lawfull subiectes to disobedience and sedition and hath bene disguised in Ruffians apparel in diuers places of this realme to plant secretely that blasphemous Masse and other Poperie whereunto it appeareth hee hath allured many vnstable fooles and in Yorkeshire where his Sectaries disciples are apprehended iustly imprisoned nowe they rage as I heare say and curse him that euer he came there So ye see what maner of mā we are to talke withal What good we shall do with him the Lord doeth knowe other maner of men then we are and of another calling were more meete to talke with him then we notwithstanding we will doe our best that we can God giue it good effect As for you Campion I heare say that you vse to scoffe and iest at such as come to conferre with you we come not for that purpose it is not our profession yet I giue you warning Si quam maledicendo coeperis voluptatem eam malè audiendo amittes Now to the question which is that the scriptures containe all things sufficient to saluation against the assertion of your booke For you say that the Lutherans haue cut off many bookes from the body of the new Testament and so diuided them from the Canonicall scripture which is not true Camp Yes that they haue and therein they haue done euill Walker Here Master Walker reade the words out of Campions challenge Campion Luther hath cut off the Epistle of Iames the second epistle of Iohn Iude and the seconde of Peter Luther hath found fault with these and improued them in his prefaces vpon those Epistles Walker Luther hath not doubted of them himselfe but shewed that others haue doubted of them Campion It is one thing to doubt an other thing to cut off Bring me the bookes and I will shewe that he hath cut them off Walker That can not bee shewed if the bookes were here For the Doctors doe not agree concerning these bookes that are of the Canon Some recite more some recite lesse as Origen Hierome and others and yet it were hard to say that they cut off any of the Canonicall bookes They doe as Luther may shewe what bookes were doubted of in their time and yet no whitte preiudice the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture Campion Well I say whatsoeuer they might doe then yet now seeing the Church hath otherwise determined it is blasphemie for any to doubt of them The Lutherans doe doubt of them bring me the bookes and I will shewe where Luther doubteth and therefore blasphemeth because the Church hath taken away the doubt videlicet the third Councill of Carthage and that of Laodicea Walker I do not professe my selfe a Lutheran but a Christian But if olde fathers and olde Councils haue not receiued these bookes for Canonical and bookes to ground our faith vpon then can not new men nor the Tridentine Council being ful of errors make thē Canonicall August de doct Christ. lib. 2. ca. 8. leaueth out Baruch the two last bookes of Esdras Hieronymus praes in li. Reg. Hūc prologū galeatū principiū vocat He saith Igitur Sapientia quae vulgo Salomonis inscribitur Iesu filij Syrach liber Iudith Tobias pastor nō sunt in Canone Macchabaeorū primū librū Hebraicū reperi secūdus Graecus est quod ex ipsa phrafi probari potest Eusebius also ecclesi hist. lib. 6. cap. 18. fol. 368. sequentibus omittit tertiū quartū Esdrae Tobiae Iudith Baruch Sapiētia Ecclesiastici Machabaeorum libros Paulo post De eo inquit qui est apud Hebraeos nonnulli dubitauerunt c. Sed ego dico ficut mihi à maioribus traditum est quia manifestissimè Pauli est Ibi de secunda Petri Epistola à nōnullis dubitatur De duabus vltimis Iohannis Epistolis apud quosdā dubia sententia He omitteth in the forenamed place the third fourth booke of Esdras the bookes of Tobie Iudith Baruch of Wisdome of Ecclesiasticus of the Macchabees A litle after Cōcerning that saith he which is written to the Hebrues many haue doubted but I say as hath bene deliuered vnto mee from mine Elders because it appeareth most manifestly to be of Paules There also concerning the second Epistle of Peter he sayth that it was doubted of many and so with some were the two last Epistles of Iohn The same Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. loquens de Melitone Episcopo Sardensis Ecclesiae qui recitans volumina veteris Testamenti omittit Esdras Tobi Hester Iudith Baruch Sapientiae Syrach Macchabaeorum c. Speaking of Melito the Bishop of the Church of Sardis who reckening vp the volumes of the olde Testament he omitteth Esdras Tobie Hester Iudith Baruch Wisedome Syrach the bookes of the Macchabees c. And the Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel the Apocalyps You see therefore that these old fathers haue left these bookes out of the Canon and yet were they neyther called heretiques nor blasphemers Campion It is not lawfull to cut off the bookes of the olde Testament from the Canon which not onely as I haue sayd Luther hath done but also Caluine The one hath reiected those bookes I haue named and the other reiecteth the bookes of Tobie Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome the bookes of Maccabees Baruch and the like which are de syncero Canone Walker What is this to that I haue saide I haue shewed that the olde Doctors haue refused them for Canonicall and therefore so many may we refuse and they them selues wil de no further admitted then they agree with the Canonicall Scriptures and these bookes which you name haue alwayes bene esteemed Apocrypha Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianorum Episcopum lib. 2. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenum nec tudebes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tuistius debueris Scripturarum authoritatibus non quorumcumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione concertet c. August against Maximinus the Bishop of the Arrians Neither oughtest thou to bring the Council of Arimine nor I the Nicene as it were to preiudice the trueth neither should I be holden with the authoritie of this nor thou of
labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded froÌ„ a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpoÌ„ her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not froÌ„ the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts coÌ„fesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene couÌ„cill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giueÌ„ Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her yâ— she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne tâ—…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away yâ— head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
⧠A true report of the Disputation or rather priuate Conference had in the Tower of London with Ed. Campion Iesuite the last of August 1581. Set downe by the Reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein Whereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie IMPRINTED AT LONDON by Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Ianuarij 1. 1583. ERRATA A. signifieth the first page B. the second The numbers shewe the line  Faulte Correction C. ii a. line last commoda for commoda D. ii a. 25. in the margent Normam Limam D. ii b. 36. both loth D. iiii a. 27. lewd lowd D. iiii b. 19 Proofe processe H. iiii line last by in D d. iiii b. 9. iustified infected To the Reader MAster Campions Booke being at large answered shortly after our conference with him which was concerning certaine points in the beginning of the fayd booke onely and our sayd conference also being partly remembred in the saide answere of his booke though we had immediatly vpon the sayd conference set downe in writing certaine notes of the same out of our fresh memorie to all euents Yet we thought there was no cause the whole booke being confuted why we should publish our dealing with him concerning a fewe pointes in the beginning thereof onely specially Master Campion being now dead and not to replie thereunto himselfe so that we layd aside our notes and without all thought of any publishing of them at all But there hauing bene sithen by others the fauourers of him and his cause partly in print but in written Pamphlets much more dispersed wherein Master Campions surmised glorious conquest against vs is exceedingly set forth and some of them so confidently that in the conclusion thereof the Authour saithe The Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wedded wholy to will did get the Goale And againe In my soule I protest that in any indifferent iudgement the aduerse protestaunts were quite confounded and if I were not a Catholique already the onely hearing of that conference would haue made me one Vpon such vntruthes and impudencie of such writers we were partly of our selues enclined and by the often and earnest exhortations of others importuned and by some of great authoritie almost inforced to set downe the true report of the saide conference whereby we trust that all those Catholiques as they woulde be called that haue any sparke of shamefastnesse left may blush for Master Campions sake being so manifestly deprehended in so many lyes so braggingly aduouched and in print in the Lattin tongue published to the worlde Surely we doe thinke our selues and may say in trueth that if we had bene so openly conuicted so many wayes and in such sorte as Master Campion then was we should while we liued be ashamed to shewe our faces And we haue indeede heretofore out of our fresh memories then made reporte of diuers partes of this our conference vnto diuers persons as occasion hath serued and not dissembled that we found not Campion such a man as by his challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him we looked for and that vpon this our conference with him we verely thought the booke published in his name to haue bene none of his But by such Pamphlets as these be and like reports by word his surmised victories against vs were so speedily suread abroade that diuers Gentlemen and others neither vnlearned nor of them selues euill affected gaue not much credite to our sayings of that value is the first report in some eares and heades which hath among other things moued vs not a litle to set downe at the last this our true report of our saide conference vpon hope that trueth in time may take place We doe knowe they will cauill at this as our biting of a dead man whome being aliue they will say we could not all matche But the trueth is we doe defende our selues against the backebitings of many slaunderous reporters who doe yet liue and lurke in euery corner by false reportes and writings continually indeuouring to suppresse or at the least to blemish the trueth vpon euery least occasion offered or sought As first they began so they continue For whereas diuers of vs at diuers times had conference with Campion and his fellowes the time being such that so many of vs as could get leaue when we had once conferred with him his fellowes departed into the countrey from whence we were called and others remaining in the citie assaying whether it might please God that they coulde doe any good with them to their reformation this was foorthwith by reportes and pamphlets euery where so framed and dispersed as though Campion like some great beare or Lyon rather as they woulde haue him seeme had shaken vs all off like cowardly curres one after another But that religion can not long stand that is vnderpropt and stayed by such impudent lyes as amongest many other things may well appeare to all that with indifferencie without foreiudgement will reade and consider our true reporte of the sayd conference Which why we haue not published it before and why we doe publish it nowe we haue shewed the true causes howsoeuer they shall cauill that vpon misliking of our parts we haue not published it hitherto and find fault also that we haue published it nowe Surely we with good conscience may affirme this our report in the substance of matter to be most true though our memorie could not alwayes retaine the order or the very wordes wherein euery sentence was vttered A. Nowell W. Daije A true report of the conference had with Campion and others by the Deane of Paules and the Deane of Windsor in the Tower of London the last of August the 23. yere of the Queenes Maiestie and of the Lord 1581. WE the Deane of Paules the Deane of Windsor being sent to the Tower to haue conference with Master Campion and his fellowes in matters of Religion and by order of Master Lieutenant admitted into the Chappel of the Tower whither the said Campion and others were brought shortly after our meeting sayd to Master Campion that we came thither to the end to do him good if it might please God to giue such good successe howsoeuer he or any other should thinke otherwise of vs. And because it should not seeme to him that our meaning was to take any aduantage against him by our sudden comming to him we our selues being prepared for the Conference we sayd we intended to deale with him in no other matters then such as were conteined in his owne booke by him so much studied written and so lately published in print wherin he hauing made so large a Challenge as he had we sayde we thought he could not thinke himselfe to be suddenly taken as unprouided Of which speach he seemed not much to
mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
he Luther shewed his allowance of their iudgement We answered that he so sayde for that they brought very probable reasons for that their iudgement But he still charged Luther with blasphemie for saying that some doe very probably affirme that the Epistle of Iames was not written by the Apostle Saint Iames nor worthie the spirite of an Apostle and vrged vs to answere what opinion we had of that Epistle meaning to intangle vs with that Dilemma either to condemne Luther or else to doubt of the Epistle as Luther saith that some probablie doe We answered that our Church doubteth not of that Epistle but receiueth it as Canonical readeth it in our Churches expoūdeth it in our scholes and alleageth it for confirmation of doctrine Notwithstanding for Luther or any other to say that some haue very probably affirmed that Epistle not to be written by Saint Iames nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is no blasphemie It is blasphemie blasphemie quoth he pronoūcing those words with disdainefull countenance and voyce It is soone said quoth we but not so easely proued I will proue it quoth he to be blasphemie by two reasons and thus he framed a syllogisme The Gospell of Saint Iohn and the Epistle of Saint Iames were written by the same spirite But to say that some doe probably affirme the Gospell of Saint Iohn not to be written by Saint Iohn nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is blasphemie Therefore to say that like of Saint Iames Epistle is blasphemy Answere was made that the Maior was Petitio Principij the challenging of the graunt of that which chiefly is in controuersie For those that so say of Saint Iames Epistle doubt whether it was written by the same Spirite that the Gospell of Saint Iohn was or no and that still resteth for you to proue said we And here Master Campion when he coulde not denie that he required that to be graunted to him which he should haue proued was put to silence and had no more to replie Then was his second reason called for but none could be found Then saide one of them Why is not Saint Iames Epistle called the Catholicke Epistle of Saint Iames Howe doe you then denie it to be Canonicall It was said that that was a simple reason For whereas other Epistles of the Apostles were written vnto speciall Cities people or persons this of Saint Iames for that it was written commonly to all the tribes of the Iewes dispersed was called Catholike or generall Then sayd we to the auditorie You haue heard that Luther doeth much commend this Epistle of Saint Iames as good and profitable and Master Campion alleadgeth that he calleth it contentious puffed vp drie or barren stuffed with strawe and vnworthie the Apostolike spirit Whereby sayd we ye may see the diuersitie or rather contrarietie of Luthers wordes and Master Campions reporte and so may ye iudge of his synceritie trueth which he vseth likewise continually Then saide Master Campion that Luther himselfe and others had purged these workes and taken away all such places as that was and the like that ministred such occasions of offence as that did and he said he woulde procure from the Emperours Maiestie and the Duke of Bauaria and from another Prince whose name we remember not the true copyes of those bookes to be sent to the Queenes Maiestie Which wordes he rising vp from the forme whereon he sate pronounced with so great contention of voice and with such gesture casting vp his armes beating vpon his booke that one of vs challenged him therefore demaunding why he vsed such outragious speach and behauiour He answered for that so many yong Catholiques were present there he woulde not by any faint defending of the cause giue them occasion of offence Whereby we vnderstande howe he would haue behaued him selfe might he haue obteined a disputation among the youth of the Uniuersities trusting they woulde be caryed away many of them by such his bolde and confident dealings and actions And we saide further to Master Campion that if Luther had purged his books where he first reiected Saint Iames Epistle as Master Campion saith he hath sithen receiued and much commended it with whatreason hath Master Campion charged vs vpon his surmise of Luthers first writing which doth no where appeare as reiecting Saint Iames Epistle He should rather haue commended vs who doe and alwayes haue allowed of that Epistle and should haue praised Luther who after the example of Saint Augustine and other ancient and godly writers had amended in his writing that which vpon better aduise he misliked Then we turning to the auditorie sayd that seeing all the printed Bookes of Luther extant that we could finde doe conteine such commendations of Saint Iames Epistle as they had heard and that Master Campion hath charged Luther so contrarily to all his printed bookes wherein he commendeth that Epistle and therby also chargeth vs as reiecting it who euer haue receiued it they might we said take Master Campions trueth and synceritie to be as it is vntill he haue brought out his copies from the Emperour and the Duke of Bauaria which he nor any liuing we beleeue can euer doe But Master Campion said that might he haue his own bookes from Oxeforde he woulde shewe that in Luther which he had written of him Whereunto it was answered that if he woulde let vs knowe where they were we would become humble suters to their honors that he might both enioye his bookes and that the partie who had them in keeping might be without daunger But this woulde he not consent vnto Then Hart one of his fellowes saide that he being at Rome heard Bellarminus the reader of controuersies there affirme that the wordes reported by Campion in his booke were in that preface of Luther and that therefore vpon his worde it was so Whereunto we answered that neither his wordes nor the testimonie of Bellarminus were of sufficient credite to carry away such a matter as that was without better proofe specially so many and most manifest proofes in Luthers printed bookes being to the contrarie who agreeth with vs in allowing the said Epistle and that therefore Master Campion hath most impudently alleadged this place of Luther as a profe that we should reiect S. Iames Epistle Then Master Beale said It is not materiall to vs if Luther had once so written but he asked Master Campion whether euer he did read him selfe any such wordes in Luther as he in his booke doeth charge him with or not Whereto he answered that in a treatise made by Doctor Lee sometime Archbishoppe of Yorke against that booke of Luther intituled De captiuitate Babilonica he had read these wordes alleadged as he had set them downe in his booke Being againe asked whether either vpon his othe or vpon his credit he would say to the presence there assembled that he had euer seene the places alleaged by him in his booke
an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you
take them as done vnto himselfe yet were it an intollerable arrogancie for vs to say We fed thee when thou wast hungry c. Or to say Giue vs the reward of our cuppe of colde water which thou promisedst we should not loose Wherefore as we sayd that merces and rewarde or hire is of the grace and mercie of God giuing it and not of the merite of man receiuing it which is according to y◠true doctrine of y◠holy scriptures that not flesh or man doe glorie or reioyce but that he who doeth glorie or reioyce in his iustification and saluation may glorie and reioyce in the Lord onely For Saint Paul sayeth Where is then thy reioysing It is excluded By what lawe of workes Nay but by the lawe of faith Therefore we conclude that a man is iustified by faith with out the workes of the lawe And againe If Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but not with God For to him that worketh the wages is not counted by fauour but by debt But to him that worketh not but beleeueth in him that iustifieth the vngodly his sayth is counted for righteousnes And againe Now if by grace then not of works for so grace is not nowe grace c. Thus farre Saint Paul Whereby you may see that if iustification and saluation shoulde be attributed to the merites of mans good workes it would occasion boasting and glorying in the fleshe and chalenging of our iustification and saluation as due vnto the merite of our works so much abate abase the glorie of Gods grace that grace should then no more deserue the name of grace But if iustification and saluation be as it ought to bee giuen wholy vnto Gods grace and mercy promised vnto vs in Christ Iesu which we doe apprehend and lay hold of by fayth onely as the onely instrumentall cause vnder Gods grace then is all the glorie and honour of our iustification giuen vnto God onely without any merite of man And so we conclude as we sayd before that we meane not by faith onely to exclude the doing but the meriting of good workes One of them alleadged the wordes of our Sauiour He that beleeueth and is baptized shal be saued And hereupon he saide We grant that n◅ merite doth preceede this fayth Whereunto one of vs sayd when he was baptized and obtayned that first grace and iustification which Master Campion speaketh of he may safely graunt that no good workes doe preceede or go before that iustification which hee had in his infancie the which no worke at all doe or can preceede but for his parte sayde he when he doth consider howe after that first grace hee hath most vngratiously broken the vowe made to God in Baptisme and how fewe and small good workes he had done towards the atteyning of any second iustification which Master Campion speaketh of howe many and great euill workes hee hath done how much of his life his time and goods he had mispent howe little he had spent in the seruice and to the honour of God howe late he came to the Lordes vineyarde and howe loytering a labourer he had bene in that short time Surely quoth hee for my part when I doe looke vpon my righteous workes so fewe and so imperfect and on the other side vpon my vnrighteous deedes so many and so sinnefull I can not but thinke it to be a most damnable arrogancie to chalenge any part of that seconde righteousnesse or of the kingdome of heauen by so fewe and small good workes and do see how great occasion I should giue therby that God should condemne me for my so many and great euill workes in respect of which I cannot but dispaire of any desert or merite towardes that seconde iustification that you doe speake of Here Master Campion to shewe belike that he was no Pharisee I must confesse also sayd he that I haue bene most defectiue in all good workes and in deede a loytering labourer as you tearme it in the Lords vineyarde What remedie then quoth the other The remedie quoth Master Campion is the mercie of God in Christ Iesus That is quoth the other that I beleeue and this my beliefe onely in his mercies thorowe Christ and not in any late and loytering worke is that faith that shall saue me and you too I trust and therefore quoth he here as in some good hope of our agreement in this poynt of iustification by faith onely without any merite of workes which we trust we haue by the holy Scriptures and by the ancient Doctors both Greekes and Latines by examples yea and by our consciences sufficiently proued if it shall so please Master Lieutenant let vs make an end and so we ended our conference A briefe recitall of certaine vntruthes scattered in the Pamphlets and libels of the Papists concerning the former conferences with a short answere vnto the same WE thought it not amisse here in the ende to note some of the principall poynts vntruely set downe by the authors of such Pamphlets as haue hitherto come to our handes concerning this conference First they leaue no circumstances of Master Campions imprisonment his racking sicknes lacke of his note bookes of his librarie our sodaine cōming vpon him c. vntouched But they that will consider his bragging chalenge made in his booke and prompt readines to dispute with all protestants howe lately his booke was before by him set out and howe fresh in his memorie and howe we dealt with him onely in his owne booke and in a fewe pointes in the verie beginning thereof and did bring with vs all those bookes which he himselfe had noted and alleaged and gaue them into his handes and our selues also hauing made ready the places in the said bookes by him noted to ease his trauell in seeking of them who will I saye consider these things may hereby easily vnderstand their allegations of sodaine taking of him and his lacke of bookes to be most vaine And hee himselfe by his lowde speaches and bolde and busie gestures shewed no token of any either sicknesse or weaknesse neither did him selfe then complaine vpon those difficulties which the Pamphleters hath so diligently largely noted sithē They do charge some of vs and specially one with vncourteous wordes and vncomely for professors of the Gospell as they saye spoken to Master Campion and others But they shewe not vpon what occasion by Master Campion and others of his companions offred these wordes were spoken For when Master Campion did rise vp from the forme whereon he fate did cast vp and fling with his handes and armes did knocke and beate vpon his booke at euery other worde with an exceeding lowde voyce and sharpe countenance affirming that all our printed bookes were false and that he would procure true copies to be sent from the Emperours Maiestie from the Duke of Bauaria and from another prince whom we remember not vnto the
sentences out of the Greeke Testament and Doctors once or twise our selues wee offered the Greeke Testament first and afterwardes Nazianzene in Greeke to Campion to reade that he might credit his owne eyes and that we alleaged their wordes truely But he refused to reade in the Greeke testament altogether as them selues do here confesse And when Saint Basill and Nazianzen in Greeke were offered to him to reade he said once or twise I knowe I knowe it is as ye haue alleaged which we tooke to be a shift to auoyde the reading of it him selfe But when he was vrged Master Stollard who stood by tooke the booke and held it to him he read but so softly as it were to him selfe that wee may with good conscience protest before God that we heard not one word so farre off was it that he read skilfully in the hearing of all the auditorie as they doe write But surely whosoeuer did knowe Campions vayne may thinke that hee would haue read in the hearing of al the auditorie in deede had he had any knowledge in that tongue and not so haue whispered to him selfe or in Master Stollardes eare Truthe it is that he saide Let this man witnes whether I can reade Greeke or no. But why did hee not reade so that not he alone but that all we might haue bene witnesses thereof But saye they Master Stollard said hee read very well They onely heard him so saye belike for of truth he said to vs If he did reade at all he read the worst that euer I heard which some of vs thought that Master Stollard spake for that wee hauing read those fewe wordes of Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 once or twise before the booke was giuen Campion he might seeme out of his memorie to haue repeated them rather then to haue read them out of the booke Nowe that we should be in any admiration hereat as they write what cause was there For that we should aske him why he did not so much before who heard him then not reade one word or that the Deane of Pauls confounded should say We confesse you can reade Greeke or that there was any cause giuen why we should blush or be confounded are most impudent lies and most meete for such reporters Nay rather may all Papistes blush for Campions sake who making such a chalenge as though he had had all knowledge in all learning and languages when it came to the triall vpon conscience of his ignorance durst not reade openly one short sentence in Saint Basill or Nazianzen the bookes being of a large and faire print Surely wee before our comming thither vpon Campions owne bragging challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him thought wee should haue bene sore incumbred by his learning and ouermatched by his knowledge in the tongues so farre off was it that wee meant to make any ostentation therein towardes him as they write but vpon experience and triall with him we found him not to be that man that we looked for and went away with that opinion that the booke which was so sodainely after his bragging chalenge put in print was none of his writing much lesse penned by him as he was in his iourney as he reported him selfe but that it was elaborate before by the common and long studie of all the best learned Iesuites to serue at all oportunities To the same effect is the report of Sherwin who looking vpon the Greeke Testament and reading neuer a worde goeth yet away thereby not onely with the commendation of a man very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrew tongues but also of singular modestie and contempt of all praises as seeking to be accounted ignorant in that wherein he had great skill For that they would haue the cause of his not reading to be for that he was willed to hold his peace is very ridiculous for he did oft speake after he was so willed to holde him selfe contented and then he was specially desired to reade and not to holde his peace But we thought the truthe to be that when Sherwin had alleaged out of the second to the Ephesians after the olde translation Creati in bonis operibus we were created in good workes and the originall Greeke being shewed vnto him when he found it to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad bona opera created to do good workes he looked in the beginning and in the ende of the Greeke Testament trusting as wee thought that if he might haue found that it had bene printed in any place where the Gospel is preached hee might after Campions exāple haue made a challenge to the print as false which is now become a speciall shift of the Papistes and the last refuge when all other do faile but when he did see that it was Plantines print hee held his peace Notwithstanding we do not thinke but that Sherwin could reade Greeke the ignorance wherof we neither obiected to any nor did make any ostentation as they write of any our knowledge therein Only we offered the bookes them selues vnto Campion that his owne eyes might bee witnesses that the auncient fathers both Greekes and Latines did teache iustification by faith alone euen as we do By which occasion God as wee thinke by the opening of his ignorance meant to controll his vaine glorious bragging of all knowledge and habilitie to deale with all men Thus much and to much of this matter were it not that the reader may hereby vnderstand what vantages these writers and reporters doe take vnto them selues yea and by speedy and continuall spreading and beating of the same into the eares and heads of many do much preuaile also vntill time the mother of truthe shall discouer their vntruthes But we may by no meanes dissemble another matter by these Pamphleters sore laide to our charge Saint Augustine in the fourtenth chapter of his booke De fide operibus was by some of them in our conference as we thinke alleaged as against our doctrine of iustification by faith alone but in that confusion of many speaking at once it was not greatly by any of vs marked or said vnto that we remember But the authors of the Pamphlets do report this place of Saint Augustine as by them of al other most effectually alleaged against vs. Their words be these Unto this was added by the Catholikes the authoritie of Saint Augustine out of his booke De fide operibus and the fourtenth chapter where he hath registred that this doctrine of Iustification by faith onely was an heresie taught in the Apostles time for reformation whereof he declareth that Saint Iohn Saint Peter S. Iude and Saint Iames did write their Epistles wherein they so much inculcate the doctrine of good workes Thus they write thus they whisper in euery eare open vnto them to the slander of vs and our doctrine of iustification by faith onely as not onely an errour but an heresy also But wee doe
purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth wâ—…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpoÌ„ earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer yâ— defence of your slauÌ„der of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militaÌ„t Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore
polluted the very Aultar of God being remoued and an idolatrous altar set in the place Campion That is not alike for we haue our functions free we may sacrifice euery where say Masse vpon euery mountaine Fulke Like enough for that matter But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church the high Priest being an Idolater and the true Altar taken away and therefore there could bee no visibilitie You answere nothing to the matter but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes and therefore committing the iudgement to them that be wise and learned I will giue place vnto my brother Mast. D. Goade Concerning the short warning the case is al one with vs as it was with you we had no longer deliberation thē you had litle aboue one dayes space concerning the question and therefore you haue no cause to complaine c. Campion What shall I call your worships name Goade My name is Goade Campion Yes that may appeare by this preparation as it were to a set and solemne thing these bookes also declare besides the bringing of a writer with you c. Goade Well all these concerne not the matter you had word assone as we and were so made acquainted with the question as it was of your own choice c. but in deede you are gone from the state of the question against which we came prepared being of the whole Catholike Church as your owne booke doth importe and it is apparant that you haue wrongfully challenged our definition being as hath bene truely sayd of the Church in general wel we must I see now followe whether you leade vs. We must leaue the Catholike Church and talke of the militant Church the generall goe to a particular One thing before I ioyne with you I woulde wish you to forbeare namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches it will better beseeme modestie and pertaine more to the matter we haue in hande c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie You answere not to the report I haue heard of you for modest behauing your selfe in conference Campion Concerning my selfe I will lay my handes vnder your feete but I must not hūble God to you you know who saith Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua be not humble in thy wisedome I must with courage mainteine religion Haec est sapientia vestra coram populo this is your wisdome before the people c. I must not be prayed in religion Goade Howe fitly those places of Scripture are applied I will not now stande to discusse but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe you are fallen from it And the Church euen as it is vpon earth being but a part of the Catholike Church I will proue sometime to be hidden But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church to be visible Campion I meane that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church and such a qualitie as is inseparable It must be as visible as fire is hote water moist c. Goade Uery good but as you vnderstande this qualitie of visibilitie you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side who by visible vnderstand a notable glorious Church who hath her beautie and pompe as your Bristow writeth her continuall succession of Bishops c. Campion That same outward pompe and glorie may be wāting and yet the Church be visible inough I woulde bee loth to medle with that question of succession You knowe why I woulde not willingly deale in it Goade Well as hath bene proued out of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden so will I proue it out of the newe There was a time when our Sauiour Christ being smitten and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden that visibilitie was not an inseperable qualitie ergo this qualitie is not alwayes inseparable Campion I denie the Antecedent Goade I thinke any here might proue the Antecedent the storie of that time sheweth it plaine The face of the visible Church was then not in Christ his Apostles but in the Iewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees they had the succession of the Priesthoode and held the chaires Christ was crucified put to death and buried the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church then the high Priestes Scribes and Pharises were the true Church and not our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles Campion It was a Church in choate beginning not perfect Goade Therefore it was at sometime hidden c. namely in the beginning of the Church where was then this visibilitie Campion In the virgin Marie Zacharie Iohn Baptiste Peter c. Goade What shewe you me these to proue the Church visible who was Pastor when the Pastor was smitten and killed who occupied the chaires where was the outward face of the Church which you will haue to be so glorious and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion Campion I haue said before that it is not necessarie it should haue alwayes that outward pompe and glorie In the beginning it is not apparant as afterwards Goade Ergo there is a time when it may be hidden Campion Not hidden for they were gathered together It was in deede pusillus grex a litle flocke but proue that it was not visible Goade Because you make light accompt of these times as being but the beginnings of the Church let vs goe on to the proceedings and encrease In those great persecutions vnder the cruell Emperours the Church became hidde and inuisible ergo visibilitie is not an inseparable marke specially in thee time of Dioclesian Christians were so wasted as to the iudgement of mē there were none remaining their bookes were burnt their churches destroyed and them selues put to death with sondrie tormentes Camp You answere your selfe For against whom was this ◅secutiō so hot against whom fought they were they shadowes I am sure there were Christians or els they could not haue stoode forth to haue endured those tormentes but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time Some escaped till Constantines time much about three and twenty yeeres All were not eaten vp for then euery man would be a Christian and well was he that could shewe him self so I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was Goade But in the ende after that great hauocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that could be founde where was then the visible Church In the ende it was enforced to be hidden It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it the glorie of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where Campion It was most visible then and most glorious and not long after when Constantine came al were Christiās Wherby it appeareth that diuers remained
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
Canons of euery Councill but this was that consent the agreement of the whole Council the whole Council answered Etiam domine Campion Shew me the booke Fulke If I do not shew it then let me beare the blame Camp Well admit it be so first they might meane that Angels and spirits had a certaine definite substance of their being which they called their bodies Fulke Then belike they knewe not howe to speake but I am sure they knew what difference there was betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance body if they had so meant they waÌ„ted not words to haue expressed their meaning Camp They might thinke they had certaine subtil bodies according to the formes that they did take as Augustine and some other haue helde besides this was not an error of faith Fulke Ergo it was of maners belike Camp It was a smal error neither of faith nor maners Fulke I proue it was an error of faith We beleeue that God is the creator of all things visible and inuisible but if Angels and spirites be visible then are there no inuisible things whereof wee beleeue God to be the creator Besides they do not onely make theÌ„ visible but circumscriptible also and therefore they do meane bodies and not substances generally for onely bodies are circumscriptible Camp They meane not such bodies as we haue but such as they tooke how could they els be painted Fulke But they say they were visible and circumscriptible Campion Because they doe Assumere corpora not because they had bodies in deede but seemed to haue Fulke But the Councill saith they haue proper bodies of their own are circuÌ„scriptible haue bene seen in their proper bodies Campion It was no decree Fulke Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine All the holy Synode confirmed it saying Euen so my Lord. Campion Many a saint in heauen haue thought as hard matters as this and they are saued Fulke I deny not that but yet this was an error of faith neither doth euery error in faith shut out a man from saluation Camp In deede so you say in your booke against Bristow that the Church may erre in matters of fayth for you say that Inuocation of Saints and prayer for the dead were errors in faith and yet that they which vsed them are saued I wonder therefore why you crie out so lowde in your pulpits against Inuocation of saintes and haue nothing more in your mouthes theÌ„ Blasphemie Blasphemie when the Catholikes mainteine it Fulke I say in deede that Inuocation of saints as it was held of some of the later sort of auncient fathers was an error in faith but yet not such as could exclude them from being members of the true Church and yet the same error as it is vsed of Papistes is blasphemous These fathers helde the foundation Faith and therefore that error was not damnable in them Campion In deede you say that if a man haue faith what errors soeuer he haue besides it is well enough so long as hee holde your faith it makes no matter what errors soeuer â—…e hold with it hee cannot perish Fulke You slander my booke I neuer writte so Camp Let me see your booke and I will shew it you Fulk In what booke will you shewe it Campion In your booke against Bristowe Fulke You shal see the booke at our next meeting and if you be able to shewe any such wordes or matter either I will lose my head I may say and haue sayd that the Fathers had their errors among which some allowed inuocation of Saintes and yet holding the foundation they may be saued Camp Uery well that is all one why should you then make so much a doe against inuocation of Saintes Why doe you not say in your pulpits that it is an indifferent matter Fulke Because as you holde it it is in deede a blasphemous errour but as the Fathers helde it it was no blasphemous error but yet an errour and no indifferent thing Goade Are you ignorant that they which hold the foundation though they erre in some particular pointes of doctrine they may be saued Shall euery particular point of errour in doctrine depriue a man of saluation holding soundly the foundation Christ Campion Well he saieth it in his booke c. If a man haue onely faith it maketh no matter what errours he hold beside Fulke You shamefully slaunder my booke and I knowe you can shewe no such thing out of my booke Nowe you haue graunted so many absurdities ye know not how to make vp the matter but by slaundering my booke Campion I haue graunted no absurdities but I will defend them bring me the booke and I will shew it you And thereupon I challenge you you and I at Cambridge M. Doctor to trie it Fulke Uery well Sir you shew your selfe according to your publike challenge more bold then wise you that haue challenged all the Realme no maruaile if you challenge me Campion I wil stand to my challenge and here I challenge you to dispute with you at Cambridge if you dare Fulke It lieth not in mee to remoue you to Cambridge I came hither vpon commandement at this time otherwise you are not the man whom I would chuse take for to be mine aduersarie if you were at libertie There are twentie of your side whom I would rather take if I should chuse mine equal which make no such challenge Non tibiplus cordis sed minus oris inest Goade Your Church denyeth an article of faith ergo it erreth c. Campion God forbid it doeth not Goade You deny the bodily ascention of Christ into heauen ergo an article of faith Campion We do not deny it Goade You deny that he is bodily in heauen for you say that he is bodily in earth but he can not bee both in heauen and earth at once if he haue a true bodie Campion I deny your argument For he is and may bee in many places at once touching his body Goade It is contrary 〈◊〉 the nature of a true bodie to bee in many places at once For a true naturall body must haue the properties of a very naturall and true body and so you make Christ to haue a phantasticall and not a true body You say at the same time he is in earth and in heauen Saint Augustine confuting the likâ—… errour of those that denied that Christ had a true body saith Cauendum no ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus We must beware that we doe not so maintaine the diuinitie of Christ that we take away the true nature of a body Iesus Christus vbique est per id quod Deus est in coelo autem per id quod homo c. Iesus Christ is present euery where according to his Godhead but he is in heauen according to his manhoode And in Ioh. tractatu 3. Corpus Domini in quo resurrexit vno
sanctiss Patriarcha dixit Animaduertamus dictum patris quod illic Samaritae imagines Domini seruatoris nostri item intemeratae eius matris subuerterunt hic vero Gentiles Ostendit autem pater quod Angelos pingere oportet quando circumscribi possint vt homines apparuerint Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine Concerning Angels and Archangels and the powers of them vnto whome also I adioyne our soules the Catholike Church her selfe doeth so thinke that they are in deede intelligible but not altogether voyde of bodies and inuisible as you Gentiles do say but that they haue a thinne bodie either of ayre or of fyre as it is written Which maketh his Angels spirites and his ministers a burning fire And so we haue knowen that many of the holy fathers haue thought among whome is Basill surnamed the great and blessed Athanasius and Methodius and them that stande with them Onely God is without body and shape but the intelligible creatures are not altogether bodiles and they are such as may be portraicted in picture Wherefore they are in place also and haue a circumscription although they be not bodily as we are as of the foure elementes and that grosse matter Yet no man may say that Angels or deuils or soules are without bodies for they haue bene often seene in their proper bodies but of them to whome the Lord hath opened their eyes Therefore we do paint and worship them not as God but as intelligible creatures and the ministers of God but yet not as truely being without body But that they are painted in the shape of man the cause is that they haue bene seen in that shape if at any time they did execute the ministerie of God amōgst mē Tharasius the most holy Patriarch saide Let vs marke the saying of the father that there the Samaritans did ouerthrowe the images of our Lord and sauiour and also of his vndefiled mother but here the Gentiles The father also sheweth that wee ought to paint the Angels seeing they may be circumscribed and haue appeared as men The holy Synode said Yea my Lord. Campion You haue answered your selfe Fulke That is your common answere when you can coyne no better Camp I answered then and so do nowe Assumunt corpora They take bodies vpon them they haue none of their owne Fulke He saith they may be circumscribed Camp That is they may be painted Fulke Nay he saith plainely they are not Expertes corporis voyde of body and defineth of what bodily matter they consist namely of ayre or fire and for that he alleageth the scripture also he sayth they are not inuisible Campion Looke in what bodies they haue appeared in such they may be painted they did appeare as men they bee not men neither haue they bodies of their owne Fulke He saith expressely they haue bene seene in their owne proper body Campion The iudgemēt of the Councill is that the Angels may be painted that is all Fulke That is not all for it affirmeth that they are circumscriptible and visible as I said before Campion You haue proued no error of the Councill Fulke We might haue brought the Epitome of the Councils gathered by one Bartholemew Garanza a Spanish Fryer which noteth it for an error in that Councill contrary to the Lateran Councill vnder Innocentius the third who thought him selfe as well learned as you Campion It is no matter Fulke Yes it is a matter when Papistes agree not amongst them selues Campion You should haue brought it I woulde haue answered him also Fulke Well let them that bee wise and learned peruse the Councill at their leasure Further in reasoning of Peters reprehension you said his error was a matter of facte and not of faith for the Pope you say may so erre and bee reprehended of a poore Priest who may say vnto him Sir why do you so To this I replied that so to reprehend the Pope was against your owne Canon lawe which now I proue out of the decrees Parte 1. Distinct. 40. cap. Si Papa suae fraternae salutis negligēs deprehenditur inutilis remissus in suis operibus insuper a bono taciturnus quod magis officit sibi omnibus nihilominus innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducit primo mancipio gehennae cum ipso plagis multis in aeternū vapulaturos Huius culpas istic redarguere praesumit mortalium nullus qui cunctos ipse iudicaturus a nemine est iudicandus nisi deprehendatur à fide deuius Pro cuius perpetuo statu vniuersit as fidelium tanto instantius or at quanto suam salutem post Deum ex illius incolumitate animaduertit propensius pendere If the Pope be found negligent of his owne and his brethrens saluation vnprofitable and remisse in his workes and also holding his peace of goodnesse which doeth more hurt him and all men neuertheles he leadeth with him innumerable people by heapes to the chiefe slaue of hell with whome hee shal be beaten with many stripes for euer No mortall man doeth here presume to reproue his faultes because he him selfe being to iudge all men is to bee iudged of no man except he be founde erring from the faith for whose perpetuall state the vniuersitie of faithfull doeth pray so much the more earnestly by how much it perceaueth their saluation after God to hang more readily of his health Againe by the Extrauagant De concessione prebendae titulo 4. cap. 2. ad Apostolatus in the Glosse where hee sheweth that the Pope may doe that which to all others is forbidden Nec est qui audeat dicere Domine cur ita facis And in the marginall note Papae nullus audeat dicere Domine cur ita facis No man may be bolde to say to the Pope Syr why do you so Camp Reade the decree againe Fulke Si Papa c. Campion The meaning of the decree is that no man may iudicially reprehende him I say so Fulke Both the decree the Extrauagant speake generally that the Pope must not be reprehended of any man except he be an hereticke whereof it followeth that Gratians Decree and the Glosse thought not but that he might erre in faith Camp Mine answere is he may doe it soberly as a man may with humilitie reprehende his prince but not iudge him Fulke Let other men iudge I haue shewed as much as I promised out of the Canon Law You charged me to affirme in mine answere to Bristow that so a man holde the foundation of faith it is no matter what errors he holde beside Here is my booke shewe these wordes or any wordes to that sense as you promised Camp You say that the true Church may erre in matters of great weight so they retaine the foundation Fulke I say that so long as a man holdeth the foundation though he erre in small matters he may be saued Cam. You say the fathers erred in inuocation of Saints which is a great matter with Gods
accidents are not that he spake of Campion This is a booke and yet I see not the substance of a booke but whitenesse and other accidents Fulke Who would say that whitenes is the booke none but a madde man neither will any say that whitenesse is the body of Christ or called the body of Christ. Therefore by the word of heauenly bread and of the Sacrament he meaneth the whole sacrament I see you haue nothing but shamelesse shiftes against so cleare authoritie of your owne Canon law speaking against you Campion If you dare let me shewe Augustine and Chrysostome if you dare Fulke Whatsoeuer you can bring I haue answered already in writing against other of your side and yet if you thinke you can adde any thing put it in writing and I will answere it Campion Prouide me ynke and paper and I will write Fulke I am not to prouide you ynke and paper Campion I meane procure me that I may haue libertie to write Fulke I knowe not for what cause you are restrained of that libertie and therefore I will not take vpon me to procure it Campion Sue to the Queene that I may haue libertie to oppose I haue bene nowe thrise opposed it is reason I should oppose once Fulke I will not become a suter for you Camp Sue to the Queene for me it is but an easie suite you being in such credit with your Prince may if you dare procure this matter Catholikes of their prince can obtaine a greater matter and are not you Protestants in such credit with your Prince that you can obteine so small a matter Fulke We meane not to trie our credit in this matter But if you write any thing I will answere you in writing Campion Procure it Fulke It were to small purpose I haue answered already Heskins and Saunders which are like to bring as much as you Campion I am not worthy to cary their bookes after them And you your selfe Sir may be scholer to either of them Goade If Christ be present in his naturall body he must be present in his true body But Christ is not present in his true body Ergo not in his naturall body Camp I deny your minor He is present in his true body Goade A true body must haue the properties of a true body But this hath not the properties of a true body Ergo it is not a true body Camp I deny againe your minor It hath the properties of a true body Goade AmoÌ„gst the properties of a true body this is one special to be circuÌ„scribed in place not to be in many places at once But in your transubstantiation Christes body is made to be in many yea in infinite places at once Ergo it hath not the properties of a true body Campion It is in respect of a miracle not seene with eye but with our faith Goade Now you runne againe to miracle It hath bene before shewed you out of Augustine that there is no miracle in the Sacrament and your selfe sayd that miracles are now ceased Campion It is a great miracle to conuert a sinner yea greater then to make the worlde and this kinde of miracle is dayly Goade Now you would go from the matter this is not properly a miracle But to the purpose Answere the argument That which is in many places at once is not a true body But as you teach Christ in the Sacrament is bodily in many places at once Ergo not a true body Campion The propertie of the fire is to burne yet the three children in the fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ed Wiâ—… you therâ—…e 〈◊〉 that it was truely fire Goade That was in deede and properly a miracle whereof the Scripture testifieth which visibly was seene Campion So is this a miracle Goade Beside it is not sensible which must be in a miracle There is no ground of the worde for it And faith must be grounded on the worde of God Campion The word teacheth that God is omnipotent Goade You that wil reason from Gods omnipotencie must prooue also his will Omnia quae voluit fecit Hee hath done all things whatsoeuer he would Camp Nay you must proue it is not his will Goade I wil proue it out of Theodoret. Dialo 3. qui inscribitur impatibilis writing of the glorified body of Christ after his resurrection Non est mutatum in naturam diuinitatis sed post resurrectionem est quidem immortale ù corruptione interitu alienum diuina gloria plenum sed tamen corpus est quod habet propriam circumscriptionem The body of Christ is not changed into the nature of his diuinitie but after his resurrection it is in deede a body immortall free from corruption and ful of diuine glory but yet it is a body that hath a proper circumscription Campion When it pleaseth Christ to worke a miracle he is not bound to the natural properties he doth not alwayes practise all his properties His body ascending into heauen had the true properties of a body yet did not then practise them It is against the naturall propertie of a body to ascend vpward Goade This ascention of Christes body being an article of our faith is grounded vpon the worde that his body was taken vp neuerthelesse remayned a true body circumscribed in place Augustine sayth we must not take away the trueth of Christs body Epist. ad Dard. 57. Cauendum ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus cui profecto immortalitatem dedit naturam non abstulit Wee must take heede that we doe not so maintayne the Godhead of Christ being man that we take away the trueth of his body whereunto hee gaue immortalitie but tooke not away the nature Campion You neede not bring these places I graunt that Christ hath a true body But you may as well deny the ascension of Christ being against the propertie of a true body to ascend vpwarde Goade I answered before that this is an article of our faith grounded vpon the expresse worde of God And because we do beleeue by the word that Christes body is ascended and sitteth at the right hand of God and from thence shal come to iudge therefore we cannot beleeue the coÌ„trary that Christ is yet present on earth So Augustine reasoneth in the same Epistle Christus Iesus vbique est per id quod Deus in coelo autem per id quod homo Spacia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt Christ iesus is euery where as he is God but as he is man he is in heauen Take away space of places from bodies they shall be in no place and because in no place they shall haue no being at all Campion I thinke I haue answered sufficiently he is present not naturally but miraculously Goade Why then ye destroy the propertie of a true bodie and so consequently take away the trueth of a body Campion I grant the
those that would haue water He saith hee deliuered wine but consecrated wine to exclude water Fulke He excluded water to bring in wine and not to shut out both water and wine Camp We vse wine in the misteries Fulke But he saith Christ deliuered wine so doe not you say when you giue the cup Camp He gaue them that which had the name of wine and had the shewe of it but nowe was not in deede wine As for example the rod of Moyses was called a rod after it was turned into a serpent because it was a rod a litle before Fulke The rodde was miraculously turned into a serpent and returned into a rod againe both which miracles were to be iudged by the sense and yet you proue not that it was called a rodde while it was a serpent Campion Yes that I do Et deuorauit virga Aaron c. And the rod of Aaron deuoured the rod of the enchaunters Fulke Yea Sir That which was a rodde while Moyses did write and was a very serpent before Pharao deuoured the roddes of the Egyptians which were serpents in shew but rods in deed Moyses called it a rod when it was a rod and not when it was a serpent Againe it was a sensible miracle Campion So there is great miracles in the Sacrament Fulke So you say but none appeareth to our sense Campion They are vnderstoode by faith Fulke It is an easie matter so to faine miracles in euery matter but God did neuer shew miracle in conuersion of substances or any sensible thing but it was to be iudged by the senses to be a miracle Bring me one instance of any miracle in cōuersion or in any other sensible thing that could not be discerned by sense Camp It was a rod a litle before that after was called a serpent and yet reteined the name it had before as Clandi ambulant Caeci vident c. Fulke That is not denied although by you it can not be proued but here the place is plaine Chrysostome speaketh of the substance of the Sacrament he deliuered wine and they receiued wine Campion I haue answered Leaue the rest to God and their consciences which are the hearers Goade I will continue to vrge you further with the wordes of the Institution Your answere can not bee allowed for good when you would shift off the plaine wordes of our sauiour Christ calling it wine being the fruite of the vine and would haue this referred to the wine vsed in eating the Pascall before the institution You may not so leape backe from the Institution to the Pascal there was some distance of time betwene the Pascall and the Supper so you can not referre this to the whole action Campion You say well The eating the pascal Lambe went before and the Institution followed and yet I say the wordes of Christ concerning the fruit of the vine hath relation to the whole Goade Consider the order of the wordes in the Euangelist As they were eating the Passeouer Iesus tooke bread c. And then after he had deliuered the cup and bad them all drinke thereof calling it his blood then followeth I say vnto you I will not drinke hereafter of this fruite of the vine c. But I will make my argument from the Institution thus The Apostles did eate the substance of breade and wine after consecration as you terme it Therefore there remaineth the substance of bread and wine after consecration Campion I deny your Antecedent Goade That which our Sauiour Christ gaue the Apostles did eate But he gaue bread and wine Ergo they did eate bread and wine Camp I deny your minor He did not giue bread and wine Goade The same which Christ tooke into his handes he also deliuered But he tooke bread and wine Ergo he deliuered bread and wine Camp I answere out of Ambrose Before consecration it was bread and so he tooke bread but after the wordes of consecration he saith it is no bread Fulke You falsifie Ambrose and would abuse the auditorie for he doeth not say it is no bread Camp He sayth there is a chaunge I may you let me make one argument out of Ambrose and answere me if you can Goade Well make your argument you shal be answered Campion Let me borrow the booke Nowe heare Ambrose wordes lib. de Sacramentis 4. cap. 4. Tu forte dicis panis est vsitatus Sed panis iste panis est ante verba Sacramentorum vbi accesserit consecratio de pane fit caro Christi Vides ergo quà m operatorius sit sermo Christi iussit facta sunt Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini vt inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magis operatorius est vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur Peraduenture thou sayest that it is common bread But this bread before the sacramentall words is bread but after consecration of bread is made the flesh of Christ. Thou seest then of what efficacie the word of Christ is he commaunded and the creatures were made If then there is so great force in the worde of the Lord that the things that were not begun to be how much more is it able to worke that the things which were should haue still their being and be chaunged into other things Goade I know the place and thus I answere First ye haue not any worde in Ambrose to exclude the substance of bread We acknowledge a chaunge with Ambrose not of one substance into an other as you would haue to be but touching the vse whereto the sacrament serueth namely that which was common bread before ordeined to a common vse to feede the body is now conuerted and consecrated to an holy and spirituall vse to nourish the soule by feeding vpon Christ by true and liuely faith Campion But Ambrose wordes are plaine that which before was bread after consecration ex pane fit caro Christi of bread is made the flesh of Christ. Goade Ambrose words in deede are plaine in the same chapter whereby he doeth expound his meaning the chaunge to be as I haue said touching the vse and not the substance Dicis communem panem c. By these wordes it appeareth that Ambrose purpose was to confute their opinion who thought ouer basely of the Sacrament making no difference betweene it common bread Thou sayest it is common bread but thou art deceiued it is consecrated and chaunged to an holy and heauenly vse and is become sacramentally the flesh of Christ. Campion It is called bread but it is not bread for ex pane fit caro Christi And euen as he made heauen and earth by his worde so by his worde the bread is made his flesh Goade Wee deny not that it is Christes fleshe as himselfe sayeth of the bread This is my body but it is to be vnderstoode as a sacramentall speach when the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as after shal be shewed out of
of the weakenesse of his stile is in the Apostle an humilitie comming from the holy Ghost Charke You answere not to the Argument therefore to auoyde the cauil consider the Syllogisme againe in this sort Whatsoeuer is the worde of God is full sound and perfect it doeth neither aske nor neede pardon in any respect But the second booke of Marchabees doth both neede aske pardon in some respect Therefore it is not the worde of God Norton If you will stay a while and speake leasurely you shall haue the Argument written and while it is writing if you will haue any thing added or changed it shall be done It will be more profitable for the hearers and greater ease for your selues Camp With a good will I answere In it selfe and for it selfe it neither needeth nor asketh pardon but for circumstance In respect of dainty eares it may aske pardon Charke Why Campion shall the holy Ghost begge pardon in respect of daintie eares Camp Syr Put this in also that I say it was in respect of the stile for the forme and the maner of it Norton Well I haue put it in so Charke Let him put in all his shiftes helpes clogging his answeres as much as he will we will cast the clogges vpon his owne heeles and thus I reason agaynst all your cauils Whatsoeuer is in the worde of God is all of the holy Ghost both for matter for stile and for circumstance and the holy Ghost asketh no pardon for any of these Therfore the 2. booke of the Machabees asking pardon is not of the holy Ghost nor canonical scripture Here Campion â—…eeing hastie before master Norton had written it through out master Norton willed him to stay a little Campion replied that it was losse of time To which Master Norton answered againe that it was a gaining of the time He desired that the word all might bee inferred in the Antecedent Charke I sayd all Norton So it is and rightly set downe Camp Then I answere thus This circumstance of asking pardon is of the holy Ghost for it is a speach of humilitie proceeding from the holy Ghost as is Saint Paules speach Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach Et non in persuasibilibus verbis humanae sapientiae Not in the perswasible wordes of mans wisedome Charke Rudis sum sermone commeth oft and rudely in and yet the alledging of it hath bene disproued long ago Neuerthelesse seeing it pleaseth you so wel it shal be a weapoÌ„ of your owne giuing to vse against your selfe For the Apostle of purpose auoyding the wisdome of mans eloquence doth iustifie that which his aduersaries called rudenesse of speach as lawfull and good Neither doth he as you imagin confesse any want or craue pardon Therefore your example is false deceitfull and vnlearned It is a trim thing for you to abuse the multitude vnder opinion of great learning and to match those that are no scriptures with scriptures sometime affirming one thing and another time another sometime that the Apostles speach is rude and the stile base and needeth pardon in respect of daintie eares and now last that it needeth no pardon but is done for humilitie whereas the holy Ghost neuer asketh pardon of man for any thing he doth for that were to bring God vnder man and make the spirit of God subiect to the allowance or disallowance of sinfull flesh Camp I answere that neither this of the Macchabees nor Pauls speach hath need of pardon in it selfe Charke It is too too much absurd to accuse the holy ghost of waste and needles speach For if there needed no pardon it was not according to the holy Ghost to craue it Camp I haue said neither this nor the Apostles speach needed any pardon in it selfe and yet it was not waste and needlesse because it proceeded of humilitie Charke Will you charge the holy ghost with dissimulation speaketh he one thing and meaneth another Camp I say it was not waste because it proceeded of humilitie to craue pardon Charke Wel I proue my assertion against this your imagined humilitie of the holy Ghost to sinfull flesh Whatsoeuer is without cause is waste and needlesse But your self confesse it to be without cause for the holy ghost to craue pardon Therefore by your owne confession it is waste and needlesse Camp I denie the Minor For there is cause For in trueth the stile is simple Charke How often haue you granted the Minor saying he needed not to aske pardon now as forgetting your selfe you say there is cause of asking pardoÌ„ For say you in truth the stile is simple Your speaches are contradictory Set it downe that yâ— aduersarie is not at one with him selfe Besides he was driuen before to grant the stile is not base or simple Camp I haue set downe no contrarietie but in respect Char. In respect is a simple shift Are not these contradictorie propositions He needeth not pardon but asketh it in humilitie and He needeth pardon for in trueth the stile is simple Camp I pray you read the place of the Maccabees Charke Thus you retire and aske moreouer that which needeth not For the place is well knowen and was read before But I will read it againe Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc ipse velim si autem minus dignè concedendum est mihi This I would haue all the companie marke and vnderstand whom you labor with indirect speaches to abuse draw from the truth that whether the authour of this booke excuse himself craue pardon in these wordes for his stile or for his storie neither can be of the holy ghost because as hath bene proued at large the holy ghost faileth nothing at all in any point of speach of matter or of circumstance Thus your distinctions and cause fall together Camp I haue answered you in what respect he craueth pardon and if that cannot satisfie you leaue it to God and this companie to iudge of Charke Sure your satisfaction is verie weake farre from satisfying God that hateth such fond distinctioÌ„s to darken his word or those of the companie that seeke to be edified But you giue me new occasion to prosecute this matter What thinke you therefore of the storie of Iudith touching the dressing and decking of her selfe with apparell and ornaments fittest to deceiue Holofernes eies and what say you to her lies and praier that he might be taken with the snare of his eies looking vpon her the speaches vntrue and the action vnchaste in outward apparance were they thinke you of the holy Ghost Camp I maruell not that you so speake of me when you so speake of a blessed woman to bring so holy an action into doubt Surely you greatly offend me in so doing Charke I speake of the words and storie as it is plainly written she prayeth saying Capiatur laqueo oculorum suorum in me Percuties eum ex
whereby he is iust but whereby he hath made vs iust Walker Sinnes inherent in vs and righteousnes inherent in Christ Camp Nay I say righteousnes inhereÌ„t in vs giueÌ„ by Christ. Charke Campion ye answere not the argument but in place of answering you lay downe newe positions Your inherent righteousnes is not graunted you if it were yet it followeth not that it should bee a fellowe cause in our iustification with Christes righteousnes Camp I say we haue inherent righteousnes and Christ had not inherent sinne Charke What answere is this to my argument If we had it yet it followeth no more that it should iustifie vs then the inherent sparke and light of nature which is leaft should make vs able of our selues clearely to behold the hidden mysterie of the grace and mercie of God reuealed onely by fayth in the Gospell Camp Will you not admitte an answere Charke You are graueled It is no answere to bring a newe and false position that not applied to the argument But I will not let you rest in this starting hole you shall haue Syllogismes Our sinnes alone were of full sufficient force by imputation to condemne Christ vnto death Therefore his righteousnes alone is of full and sufficient force by imputation to iustifie vs vnto life Againe and shortly In Christ there was no inherent sinne to be any cause of his condemning Therefore in vs is no inherent righteousnes to be any cause of our iustifying Camp I dispute not how he might haue iustified but by what meanes he doth iustifie vs. Charke This is plainely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to say the least Answere the reasons Doe my arguments proue howe he was able or rather proue they not most manifestly howe he hath iustified vs But as the Scribes Pharisees supposed some inherent sinne in Christ so you their successors suppose some inherent righteousnes in vs and we shall as truely liue by this as he iustly dyed for that Campion I deny the argument because his will is otherwise Charke Here againe is a newe proposition brought in place of an answere But I haue proued that GOD hath done it and therein reuealed his will which is most holy and most perfect in al proportion of iustice Camp I deny it For we haue inherent righteousnes Charke I would you would so answere as men might see with what iudgement ye vse so many denials But I will followe my argument and proue there is no inherent righteousnes in vs whereby we are more or lesse iustified If we haue any inherent righteousnes as a fellowe or helping cause of our iustification then the righteousnes of Christ is not alone without vs so full and absolute to our saluation as were our finnes to cause his condemnation But Christs righteousnes alone without our inherent righteousnes is de facto as full and perfect euery way Therefore we are aswell de facto iustified onely by the imputation of his righteousnes as he was condemned onely for the imputation of our sinne Camp I deny the Minor Charke You deny it manifestly against the doctrine of the Apostle Rom. 5. teaching that there was more force in the righteousnes of Christ to saluation then was in our sinne to condemnation Whereupon you are turned out of your shiftes and must confesse that as Christ was condemned onely for the imputation of our sinne without any inherent sinne of his owne so are we iustified onely by the imputation of his righteousnes without any inherent righteousnes of ours Which who so denieth he shal be found to match mans supposed righteousnes with the righteousnes of God and to exalt flesh and blood against the almightie Here Master Lieutenant signified the time was past Let vs conclude with prayer ALmightie GOD and most mercifull Father we giue thee humble and heartie thankes in the name of Iesus Christ for all thy goodnes especially for the alone and all sufficient sacrifice of Iesus Christ beseeching thee that renouncing all opinion of any righteousnes of our owne we may by faith lay holde of his righteousnes to our euerlasting saluation Also wee thanke thee for the inestimable treasure and armour of thy holy worde whereby thou makest thy children rich in all spirituall and heauenly wisdome inhabling them euen the weakest of them to triumphe against proud and bold ignorance against the deceitfull and lying spirits gone out into the world in these last times to deceiue those that receiue not the knowledge and loue of thy trueth Moreouer good Lord as it hath pleased thee to vouchsafe some blessing vpon our labours this day for which we likewise giue thee thankes so we beseech thee yet further to blesse them that the trueth may be more and more precious to thy children and that they which are yet without may either acknowledge the power and light of thy Gospell if they belong to thee or being none of thine may stand conuicted in their owne conscience as children of darkenesse and haue their mouthes stopped which they so open against the light and trueth of thy most holy word Graunt vs these things O Lorde and whatsoeuer else may serue to thy glory and our saluation through Iesus Christ our onely Lorde and Sauiour Amen Io. Walker W. Charke Imprinted at London by Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Anno 1583. Flagitiosus Apostata Contentiosam tumidam aridam stramineam Lutherus in praefat in epist Iacobi Hanc epistolam S. Iacobi laudo pro vtili ae commodo habeo S. Aug. in his booke of retractations S. Hieromes wordes Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 25. Euseb. lib. 2. cap. 23. Adulterinam August contra Faustum li. 28. cap. 2. lib. 33 cap. 6. Distinct. 19. cap. In Canonicis Ad normâ—… Hieronimi August De Doctrina Christian lib. 2. ca. 8. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 25. dubia ficta adulterina August de Ciuit Dei lib. 15. cap. 23. contra 2. Gaudent Epist. lib. 2. cap. 23. Testes Domini Distinct. 19. cap. In Canonicis S. Augustines wordes The report of them Distinct. 19. Cap. de Canonicis Hierom. Prolog Galeat epistola ad Paulinum Distinct. 20. Cap. De libellis The Pamphleter here saith that M. Day meaning the Deane of Windsor hauing belike of olde store an other Canon to reade c. But the trueth is their affirming the word Canonicall to make all writings so named to be of equall authoritie occasioned vs to reade that Canon before Distinct. 19. Cap. In Canonicis The Decretall Epistles are together numbred with the Canonicall Scriptures To the which if you ioyne the saying of Pope Agatho Distinct 19. Cap. Sic Oâ—…es which is neere to it All the Sanctions of the Apostolique Sea are to be taken as established by the deuine voyce of Peter him selfe sayeth Pope Agatho To the which if you ioyne this which Pope Leo magna voce with a great voyce saith here woulde you not thinke that Sathan or Beelzebub bellowed out most horrible