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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85036	Truth maintained, or Positions delivered in a sermon at the Savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. By Thomas Fuller, B.D. late of Sidney Colledge in Cambridge. The particulars are these. I That the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers. II That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations. III How farre private Christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation. IIII What parts therein are only to be acted by the Supreme power. V Of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience. VI That no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from God, on men in these dayes. VII That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever. VIII What advantage the Fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them. IX That no new light, or new essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age. X That the doctrine of the Churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. With severall letters, to cleare the occasion of this book.	Fuller, Thomas, 1608-1661.; Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647. Examinations. Selections.; Fuller, Thomas, 1680-1661. Sermon of reformation. Selections.	1643 (1643)	Wing F2474; Thomason .36[9]; ESTC R23497	61,984	103

in that time to the darkening of the light of the truth let them know that such opposition only gave truth the opportunity to tryumph and the teeth of Error filled it the brighter Heresies In eodem seculo quo natae damnatae equos err●res patrum aetas tulit eos sustulit condemnig them in Synods and Councells And in this point to be an equall Empire betwixt the ancients and us we must consider that we live in the Later age and commonly bad humors which have visited the whole body do settle at last in the leggs and lowest parts with us Sects and Schismes do also abound and some Heresies first set a broach in the Primitive times now runne a Tilt with all their dredgs in our dayes Thus we see how the Fathers were both before and behind us for knowledge and wee therein both above and beneath them in severall respects See the wisdome and goodnesse of God how he hath sweely tempered things together So good that all have some so wise that none have all And how easie may this controvercy be accommodated whether ours or the Fathers light were the greatest where if the difference be but cleerly understood the parties are fully reconciled And now I conceive having answered you in grosse I need not apply my selfe to any perticulers of your examination EXAMINER The Gospel doth worke M and wind its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelation many propheticall truthes were sealed up and those not unsealed but successively and as our Generations after may have a Starre rising to them which we have not so we may have Beames N and Radiations and shootings which our fathers had not The Apostles O had not all their truths and light revealed at once some early some late some not till the holy Ghost was bestowed Revelations are graduall and the vaile is not taken off at once nor in one age We honour the Fathers as men in their Generations famous their light was glorious in its degree and quality but they had not all the degrees attainable they had a light for their owne times and we for ours and who cannot thinke that we are rising into that Age P wherein God shall powre his Spirit upon all flesh and wherein the light of the Moone shall be as the light of the Sunne and the light of the Sunne as the light of Seaven dayes TREATISE You hover in Generalls and seeme to me desirous that your Reader should understand more then you are willing to expresse my opinion breifly is this That no new Revelations or new infused light in essentiall points of Religion is bestowed on any now-adayes but that the same light hath in as plentifull a measure beene given to former ages especially to the age wherein the Apostles lived and when the faith was once delivered to the Saints and by them sett downe in the Scripture and that then so perfectly and compleatly that it needed not the accessions of any future Revelations I confesse that men by searching the Scripture that oyle will never leave increasing as long as more vessells be still brought and diligent prayer to God may and do arive daily at a clearer understanding of many places of Gods word which they had not before These words Thou art Peter and on this rock will I build my Church and that Place this is my body are now more truly and plainly understood then they were 200. yeares agoe when the Popes supremacy was as falsly founded on the former as transubstantiation was unjustly inferred from the latter However these were not Revelations of new truthes but reparations of ould For the prime primative Church received and embraced the same The Saints * in the time of Popery Sung as it were a new song a Song not new but renewed not new in it selfe but perchance to the hearers and such are many truthes which are preached in our age in the Protestant Church They that maintaine the contrary opinion of moderne revelations of new essentiall truths doe a three fold mischeife therein First they lay an aspertion of ignorance and imperfection of knowledge on the Apostles themselves and this is no lesse then Scandalum Magnatum Secondly they much unsettle men in matters of Religion and produce a constant inconstancy and scepticall hovering 〈◊〉 all oppinions and as the Athenians erected an Altar to the unknowne God so men must reserve a blancke in their soules therin to write truths as yet unknown when they shall be revealed Thus men will never know when their creede is ended and will daily waver in that truth which they have in possession whilst they waite for a clearer and firmer as yet in revertion Thirdly they fixe on the Scripture an imputation of imperfection and such as talke of new revelations of truth may well remember the passage in the Old Revelation * If any man shall add unto these things God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this booke And it seemes to mee all one in effect whether men peece the Scriptures with old Traditions or new Revelations and thus the Papist and Anabaptist are agreed like men in a circle going so farre from each other with their faces till their backes meete together And I professe I should sooner trust a tradition containing in it nothing crosse to the Scripture and comming to mee recommended from the primitive times and countenanced with the practise of the Church in all ages then a new upstart Revelation The best is wee have no neede to trust either whilst we have Gods word alone sufficient to relie on The result of all is this We have now a-dayes no new truths revealed but old ones either more fairely cleared or more firmely assented to no new Starres of Revelation arise in any hearts If any such doe burne and blaze there they are but commerts which will fade at last In a word this age is not happie with any new truths but guiltie of many old lyes Yea it rendereth it suspitious that some men are going about somewhat which they cannot justifie by the old knowne lawes of God because they beginne to broach preparative doctrines Introductorie of new revelations Distrusting as it seemes the Scripture the old Iudge as not for their turnes because they provide for an Appeale to an other Vmpirer and if those are justly accounted dangerous members in the Church who would bring in Innovations in Ceremonies then pretenders of new Revelations in Essentiall points of Doctrine are so much the greater offenders by how much Doctrine is more necessary and fundamentall in a Church then ceremonies But I will answer some passages in your Examination particularlie M. The Gospel doth worke and winde its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelotions Distinguish we heare betwixt matters of fact and matters of faith Matters of fact being foretold in the Scripture are best understood when they are accomplished In which respect

Truth Maintained Or POSITIONS DELIVERED in a Sermon at the SAVOY Since Traduced For DANGEROVS Now Asserted For SOVND and SAFE By THOMAS FVLLER B. D. late of Sidney Colledge in Cambridge The Particulars are These I That the Doctrine of the Impossibility of a Churches perfection in this world being wel understood begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers II That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations III How farre private Christians Ministers and subordinate Magistrates are to concurre to the advancing of a Publique Reformation IIII What parts therein are only to be acted by the Supreme power V Of the progresse and praise of passive obedience VI That no extraordinary Excitations Incitations or Inspirations are bestowed from God on men in these dayes VII That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist or to any men whatsoever VIII What advantage the Fathers had of us in learning and religion and what we have of them IX That no new light or new essentiall truths are or can be revealed in this age X That the doctrine of the Churches imperfection may safely be preached and cannot honestly be concealed With severall Letters to cleare the occasion of this Book I will beare the wrath of the Lord because I have sinned against him untill he plead my cause and execute iudgement for me then will he bring me forth to the light and I shall see his righteousnesse Micah 7. 9. Printed at Oxford Anno Dom. 1643. TO THE Most Sacred and Reverend ASSEMBLY For the REFORMATION of the CHURCH now convened by the PARLIAMENT Most Sacred and Reverend Divines I Have but the thoughts of an Afternoone to spread before you for I Examined the same Pace that I read that if it were possible a Truth might overtake an Errour ere it goe too farre It is not a little Encouragement that I may sit like the Prophetesse under the Palme tree under such a Shade as your selves and what weakenesse soever may appeare in these my Assertions This ayring them under your Patronage will heale them For so they brought forth the sick into the streets that at least the shadow of Peter might touch some of them Thus have I suddenly set up my Candle for others to Light their Torch at and I hope you will pardon me if my Zeale to the Truth made me see Anothers faults sooner then mine Owne Your Servant in Christ Iesus Iohn Saltmarsh TO the Two most Famous VNIVERSITIES OF ENGLAND I Dare not give you such high Epithites as Master Saltmarsh bestoweth upon the Assembly to call you the MOST SACRED Be contented to be Stiled the Two most Famous Vniversities a Title which it is no Flattery to give you but Injury to deny you I have the Studies of some whole dayes to spread before you I am not ashamed to confesse so much but should be ashamed to present your learned Considerations with lesse And will rather runne the hazard of other mens Censure to have studied so long to no purpose then to be guilty to my selfe of so much disrespect to You as to offer to your Patronage what cost me but sleight studying Indeed I examined his Examinations of my Sermon with the same pace that I read them But I could not confute his Errors so speedily as I could discover them nor could I so soon make them appeare to others as they appeared to me and the Evidencing of his Faults did cost me some Paines whereof I hope I shall never have just Cause to Repent I am altogether out of hope that my Truth should quickly overtake his Error which had the Advantage of me both at the Starting and in the Speed And yet I beleeve what I want in the swiftnesse of my Feet I shall have in the Firmenesse of my footing And when I overtake it at last as I am sure I shall seeing untruths will Tire as being better at hand then at length I am confident by Gods Assistance it will get firme and quiet Possession in spight of opposition It is altogether Improper for mee to compare You being Two in number to the Palme Tree under which the Prophetesse Deborah sate But the Analogie will hold well if I should resemble You to the Two Olive Trees continually dropping oyle in the Presence of God And methinks Master Saltmarsh his Expression to the Assembly VNDER SVCH A SHADE AS YOVR SELVES making them in the Assembly but a Shadow and then what is the Shadow of a Shadow worth under which hee desireth to sit was but an undervaluing and diminutive expressing of their worth I honour you as You Deserve and Counting You a Real and Lasting Substance so I addresse my Respects unto you Humbly requesting you to be pleased to Patronize and defend this my defence the rather because what doctrines therein I deliver not long since I suckt from One of you and in this respect I beleive both Breasts give Milke alike And therefore as your Learning is most Able so your Goodnesse will bee willing to Protect the same not so much because I had them from you as because you had them from the Truth Some perchance may blame my Choice in Choosing You for my Protection who in these troublesome times are scarce able to defend your selves The Universities being now Degraded at least suspended from the degree of their former Honour And I wonder Men should now talke of an Extraordinary great Light when the two Eyes of our Land so you were ever accompted are almost put out However this short Interruption of your Happinesse will but adde the more to your Honour hereafter And here as it were Store of Pride for me to Counsell you so it were want of duty not to Comfort you Know the only Good Token of these Times is That they are so extreamely Bad they can never last long God give you a sanctified Impression of your Afflictions neither to sleight them nor sink under them and so forbearing to be longer troublesome to your more serious Employments resteth The meanest of your Sonnes or Nephewes Thomas Fuller TO THE LEARNED AND MY WORTHY GOOD FRIEND Master Charles Herle SIR WHen I read a Pamphlet of M. Saltmarsh written against me it something moved my Affections but nothing removed my Judgement But when I saw it recommended to the world with your Approbation in this manner Nihil invenio in hoc Libello cui Titulus Examinations or a discovery of some dangerous Positions delivered in a Sermon of Reformation Preached by Tho. Fuller B. D. quin utiliter imprimatur Charles Herle I must confesse it troubled me not a little suspecting either my Eyes or my Understanding that either I misread your Name or had mis-written something in my Sermon Wherefore fearing Partiality might blind me in mine Owne Book knowing that Eli was not the onely Indulgent Father to his owne Off-spring I imparted my Sermon to some whom you respect and they respect you Men

Spirit of God should not work in the soules of O unregenerate but expect an answerable Compliancy first who should be sanctified If God had expected any such Congruity in our businesse of salvation we had been unredeemed To speak P closer what Qualification did Queen Q Elizabeth expect when shee received a Kingdome warm from Popery What Qualification did R Henry the eight expect in his Attempt against the Supremacy when all his Kingdome was so universally conjured to Rome Such Moderation and Qualification is no other but a discreet taking so much as will serve your turne To the law saith the Scripture S and to the Test mony Moses wrought according to the Patterne so Salomon too godly Bucer makes it his worke to perswade King Edward to build up a perfect Church and he V prophesies sadly that he was afraid Popery would succeed because the Kingdome of England was so averse to the Kingdome of Christ And we know the Marian dayes followed me-thinkes we are too like his proprophesie and our W Marian times approach too fast TREATIS K You write of a Reformation of a Church like Bodin Would I wrote like Bodin though on the condition that I never wrote Answer to your Examinations Would we had some Bodins some such able States-men that they might improve their parts to advance an happy Accommodation betwixt our Sovereigne and his Subjects L You make it a worke of Policy not of Piety I make it as indeed it is a work both of Moses and Aaron wherein Piety is to be prefer'd and Policy is not to be excluded M Such Counsellours had Jeroboam and Jehu Sir shoot your Arrowes at me till your Quiver be empty but glance not with the least slenting insinuation at His Majesty by consequence to compare him to Jeroboam or Jehu for their Idolatry He knoweth how to bestow his Gold farre better and to leave the Calves for others N This Moderation and Qualification you speake of is not so consistent with spirituall Essenses and Operations This your line is not so consistent with sense as to need much lesse deserve a Confutation O If the Spirit of God should not have wrought in the souls of Unregenerate I wonder that allotting as you say but one afternoon for the whole work of your Examination you could spend so much time some minutes at least in such impertinencies P To speake closer And truly no more then needs for as yet you are farre enough from the matter But I will not confute what you confesse Q What Qualification did Queen Elizabeth expect She needed not to expect any when she had all Requisites to reforme Those who have such Qualification are not to expect but to fall a working those that want it are not to fall a working but still to expect Queen Elizabeth as supream in her Dominions had a sufficient calling to reforme nothing was wanting in her Onely her Memory doth still deservedly expect a more thankfull acknowledgement of her worthy paines then generally she hath received hitherto R What Qualification did Henry the eight expect in his attempt against supremacy He likewise had Qualification sufficient and therefore needed not to expect any as your following words doe witnesse wherein you say that All his Kingdome was universally conjured to Rome If it was his Kingdome then he had a calling if it was conjured to Rome then he had a cause to reforme and being the King was bound to be the Exorcist to un-conjure his Subjects from such superstition Yea had King Henry reformed as sincerely as he had a lawfull Calling thereunto his memory had not been constantly kept in such a purgatory of mens tongues for his lukewarme Temper even the most moderate counting him too good for to be condemned and too bad to be commended S To the Law saith the Scripture and to the testimony I will treasure up this excellent passage till a convenient time being confident that before the next Paragraffe is examined I shall appeale to these Judges and you decline them T Godly Bucer makes it his worke to perswade King Edward to build up a perfect Church The book of godly Bucer which you cite I have seene on the selfe same token that therein he makes a Bishops to be above Presbyters Jure divino You know Bucer wrote this worke as leading the front of his Opera Anglicana in the very beginning of King Edwards reigne before the Reformation was generally received in England and whilst as yet Popery was practised in many places And next to this his book followeth his gratulation to the English Church for their entertaining of the Purity of the Gospell so that what he doth perswade in the book you alleadge was in some good measure performed in that Ks. reign and afterwards better compleated by Queen Elizabeth V And he prophesieth sadly that he was afraid Popery would succeed Herein he took shrewd aime and it happened he hit right Such predictions are onely observed when afterwards they chance to take effect otherwise if missing the marke men misse to marke them and no notice at all is taken of them I know a latter Divine not the lowest in learning one of the highest in b zeale amongst them who foretelleth that Atheisme rather then Popery is likely to overrunne England Such Presages may serve to admonish not to afright us as not proceeding from a propheticall spirit but resulting from prudentiall observations But before we take our farewell of this book of Bucers it will not be amisse to remember another passage not to say presage in the same worthy worke that we may see what sinnes in his opinion were forerunners of ruine in a Kingdome The margin presents the Reader with the c latin which I here translate though the former part thereof be englished already in mens practise and the latter I feare will be englished in Gods judgements How horrible an affront doe they doe to the Divine Majesty who use the Temples of the Lord for Galleries to walk● in and for places so prophane that in them with their fellowes that prattle and treat of any uncleane and prophane businesse This sure is so great a contempt of God that long since even for this alone we have deserved altogether to be banished from the face of the earth and to be punished with heaviest judgements Such I am afraid will fall on our nation for their abominable abusing of Churches besides other of their sinnes and prophaning the places of Gods worship Not to speake of those and yet what man can hold his tongue when the mouthes of graves are forced open who in a place to vvhich their guilty conscience can point vvithout my pens direction did by breaking up the Sepulchers of our Saxon Christian Kings erect an everlasting Monument to their ovvn sacriledge Such practises must needs provoke Gods anger and now me-thinks I write of the Reformation of a Church like Bucer and not like Bodin W Me-thinks we are too