2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
Epistle of S. Iohn and others But in time the Church guided by the holy Ghost with common consent receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the bookes that bee in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares hath more authoritie then the sayings of one or two the which neuerthelesse spake not but of their owne time And further there is no comparison betweene the sayings of one or two particular men the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as hath already beene sayd And it will be found that S. Ierom hath approoued these bookes as Canonicall And for the same will referre themselues to the Prologue which hee made vpon the bookes of the Macabees where he saith Touching the Hebrewes they are not Canonicall histories of the Church or other wordes to the like effect For the Councell of Laodicia they referre them to that which is contained therein It may bee they are deceiued in cyting one Councell for another For the Article beginning Touching the experience c. Although it be a question of fact yet it ceaseth not to be much auailable And if it be found as the Doctors haue proposed of which they doubt nothing the foundation of their particular reuelation is ouerthrowne Touching the Ministers conclusion the Doctors doo shew that they haue oft times complained they fell into by-matters They referre themselues to the iudgement of all men that their last resolution was deducted all of one thread continuing without straying in the same matter In which albeit they had found something wherein difficultie had beene had the Ministers so much desired to proceed to the conference of the chiefe pointes they might briefely haue admonished them of the said difficultie The Doctors vpon these articles had verily said something but to hasten the busines for the which they bee called they do forbeare to multiply words Where the Ministers shew that they receiue the 24. bookes of the old Testament with all the bookes of the Newe The Doctors say that that is not the point For all the conference they haue made hitherto that is to say by what rules men might discerne some bookes from other some and iudge whether they were of the Scripture or not was to raunge them in this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Church which is iudge of the number of the bookes and by the same meanes when the question should bee of the vnderstanding of the word of God euen in the conference of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers and Doctors should haue such reuerence to the Catholique Church that she should be of both parts accepted for iudge of the vnderstanding of the Scripture which they acknowledg to haue receiued of the same wherof she is an infallible iudge and more certaine then the one or the other And notwithstanding the Doctors doo make offer to the Ministers that they will not vse at this time against them but those bookes onely which they receiue for Canonicall But when they shall fall into difficultie of the interpretation of some text or of the conference of many the Doctors esteeme it more reasonable to haue recourse to the Catholique Church and to the auncient Fathers then to their proper sence or that of the Ministers Answere For conclusion the Ministers do accept of the offer made them by the Doctors to decyde the pointes and articles of their Confession by the bookes Canonicall whereof they are agreed that is to say the 24. bookes of the Hebrewes and all the bookes of the new Testament protesting neuerthelesse that in the last writtings proposed by the Doctors there bee many things which they no wayes approoue and doo hope to confute as occasions shall bee offered and would presently haue done it had it not beene that they will shew against that imputed to them by the Doctors that they will not stray nor any way retyre from the conference of the points of their Confession Reply The Doctors reciprocally do agree to the Ministers in the said offer with this moderation to ad the authoritie of the vniuersall Church and the auncient Doctors for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scripture when they cannot agree The third dayes Dispute on Thursday the eleuenth of Iuly THE Ministers haue shewed what are the protestations which the Doctors haue made not for other ende to appeare in this Conference but to satisfie Madam de Buillon and not to bee instructed and otherwise informed of the pointes of Religion then they be And those which the Ministers haue on their part made also not to conferre with them for any doubt they haue of the pointes of their Confession whereof they bee wholely resolued By reason of which protestations they haue required that the first point whereof they shall conferre may bee that which Madam de Buillon hath publiquely required to bee decyded that is of the Supper and of the Masse that they may bee discharged of that also which hath beene imputed vnto them by the Doctors that they wandered and would not come to the principall point which is that aforesaid of the Masse but cōtrariwise that they fled away drew backe from the conference Finally that it may bee knowne who doo flye the decyding thereof They offer after they haue cleared that point to conferre with them if they please of all the other points which be in controuersie as leisure and time shall therfore be granted And doo also require to avoyd all confusion and such as happened in the Conference the day before that the Doctors may propose their arguments particularly each one apart and that the answers also may bee made vnto them particularly by the Ministers Ir els if they will propose all their arguments and reasons together that one whole day may bee graunted vnto them wherein they may doo that without any interruption conditionally that the Ministers may haue the day following to answere by order to all their arguments The Doctors say by that which is aboue written in the behalfe of the Ministers That it is easie to know they haue alwayes recoyled and yet do recoyle from conference of the things which they haue put in controuersie and they are maruellously abashed that they will not now permit the articles of their confession to be examined by order as the day of the first Conference they had required my Lord of Neuers my Lord and Lady of Buillion and other Lords and Gentlemen being present in presenting their said confessions contained in a little guilded booke making offer to the Doctors to examine them in order if they pleased which they found very reasonable And indeed the Ministers themselues hauing demanded of the Doctors whereof they would intreate departed yesterday contented to begin this day to examine the Articles of the Creed And as touching their speeche of the protestation that the assembly was made for the instruction of my Lady who desireth as they say in her absence to bee
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
are well done and ordained although that the reason and order therein be oftentimes vnknowne to men which Salomon wrote saying God maketh all things good in their season Wherevnto may be also applied that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature And it followeth not that that which is new to custome is contrary and repugnant to reason c. If the Doctors will know more thereof let them reade the two bookes of Order which this holy man composed and that which he wrote concerning myracles in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies which follow in the obiection of the Doctors Concerning the fourth the Ministers for answer say that the will of God after the doctrine of Diuines may in two sorts be cōsidered to wit according to that which by words signes and effects is declared to men and according to that which is reteined hidden in himselfe The one is called the will knowne by signes and the other the will of the good pleasure of God For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors that God can do many things which he will not do But as touching the other they say that it is equall to his power as is also his power in this respect equall to his will According to which consideration the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors ought to be vnderstood and expounded As all those may iudge which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod are yet constrained here to repeate that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth It must not be said without any determination that all things are possible to God For who so absolutely saith this comprehendeth all things as well good as bad which no way ought to be attributed to God whereby it appeareth that this good author and the other before alledged by the Ministers haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God but excepted from the same whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence To be briefe but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant and the Doctors which affirme the cōtrary to wit that the Doctors without taking so long circuit loosing so many words and alledging so many superfluous things do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture that God willeth the same Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended that quantitie is essentiall to a body and not accidentall as hold the Doctors they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors to wit that there is no place aboue the heauens that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there without any distinction or distance of place the Ministers say that touching all these points they rather beleeue the scripture and expresse word of God by them alledged then all the subtilties sophistries of vaine Philosophie which the Doctors or others can propose Ioyned herevnto that it is expresly cōteined taught in one of the articles of our faith where it is said Frō whence he shall come to iudge the quick the dead Wherevpon must bee noted that there is Vnde an Aduerbe signifying place As touching the 4. and 5. articles to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true they send backe the readers to the precedent conference And also to know in what sence and to what end the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers which they may easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted For the 6. article wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false then accusing their authoritie to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody and that to be such it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine whence the said Canon is taken it is easie to iudge that the word Oportet is there much more conuenient then that of Potest To the 8. article the Ministers answere that a substance is not without quantitie and whiles it is such and so remaineth it cannot any waies be a body And the reason is because that of the substance and that of the quantitie are two diuers predicaments vnder which one selfe-same thing for one selfesame respect cannot be any way comprised Moreouer Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit but that hee had members and parts which in respect of their measures might bee handled and touched Whence it followeth that without this a substance cannot be a body And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie if that were possible the Ministers say that although they were substances both in number and different they should neuerthelesse be like as touching the kinde and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article because it is but a repetition and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate To the 10. article the Ministers answere that the consequence whereof is the question cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors but by the rule which saith that of one absurditie may all things be inferred Moreouer they complaine of time which the Doctors make them loose by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende then to fill vp paper and to make men thinke they say something For first the Euangelist saith not as the Doctors pretend that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores but onely that he came the gates beeing shut So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry nor how the doores were opened or other place about the house by the which he entered And all that which the Doctors say cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged which bee more against them then with