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A85233 A reply unto severall treatises pleading for the armes now taken up by subjects in the pretended defence of religion and liberty. By name, unto the reverend and learned divines which pleaded Scripture and reason for defensive arms. The author of the Treatise of monarchy. The author of the Fuller answer his reply. By H. Fern D.D. &c. Ferne, H. (Henry), 1602-1662. 1643 (1643) Wing F799; Thomason E74_9 75,846 101

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of_o the_o jewish_a king_n which_o shall_v be_v distinct_o and_o large_o consider_v in_o my_o next_o section_n and_o for_o the_o new_a testament_n he_o turn_v his_o reader_n over_o to_o the_o interpretation_n which_o the_o reverend_n and_o learned_a divine_n have_v give_v on_o the_o 13_o to_o the_o roman_n and_o which_o he_o so_o far_o magnify_v that_o he_o beelieve_v the_o doctor_n will_v not_o reply_v in_o haste_n so_o he_o conclude_v his_o book_n and_o he_o shall_v see_v he_o have_v cause_n so_o to_o believe_v when_o we_o come_v to_o the_o consideration_n of_o that_o place_n sect_n vii_o place_n of_o scripture_n out_o of_o the_o old_a testament_n now_o we_o come_v to_o the_o examination_n of_o what_o be_v allege_v out_o of_o scripture_n in_o this_o cause_n whereby_o it_o will_v appear_v that_o
a_o reply_n unto_o several_a treatise_n plead_v for_o the_o arm_n now_o take_v up_o by_o subject_n in_o the_o pretend_a defence_n of_o religion_n and_o liberty_n by_o name_n unto_o the_o reverend_n and_o learned_a divine_n which_o plead_v scripture_n and_o reason_n for_o defensive_a arms._n the_o author_n of_o the_o treatise_n of_o monarchy_n the_o author_n of_o the_o full_a answer_v his_o reply_n by_o h._n fern_n d._n d._n etc._n etc._n oxford_z print_v by_o leonard_n lichfield_n printer_n to_o the_o ●niversity_n 1643._o the_o content_n of_o the_o several_a section_n sect_n i._o the_o preface_n in_o which_o the_o contradictory_n assertion_n of_o the_o adversary_n pag._n 2_o 3._o the_o general_n resolution_n of_o the_o cause_n pag._n 4._o doctrine_n of_o sedition_n pag._n 5._o 6._o sect_n ii_o case_n of_o resistance_n in_o regard_n of_o time_n of_o peace_n or_o war_n and_o in_o regard_n of_o person_n private_a or_o public_a pag._n 7._o etc._n etc._n sect_n iii_o a_o defence_n of_o subject_n arm_n in_o vain_a seek_v by_o the_o distinction_n of_o monarchy_n pag._n 11._o 12._o the_o govern_v power_n be_v so_o derive_v from_o god_n upon_o he_o who_o be_v supreme_a that_o the_o people_n can_v lessen_v or_o limit_v it_o but_o only_o in_o the_o exercise_n pag._n 13_o 14._o of_o a_o absolute_a and_o limit_a monarch_n pag._n 15._o limitation_n and_o mixture_n may_v be_v by_o after_o condescent_n of_o the_o monarch_n and_o only_o reach_v the_o exercise_n of_o the_o power_n pag._n 15._o 16_o 17._o mixture_n differ_v from_o derivation_n of_o power_n to_o substitute_n officer_n pag._n 17._o 18._o of_o monarchy_n by_o conquest_n pag._n 18._o providence_n may_v so_o far_o discover_v itself_o by_o conquest_n that_o the_o people_n conquer_a shall_v be_v bind_v to_o consent_v and_o yield_v obedience_n to_o the_o conqueror_n as_o to_o a_o prince_n set_v over_o they_o by_o god_n pag._n 19_o 20_o sect_n four_o the_o constitution_n of_o this_o monarchy_n the_o entrance_n of_o the_o saxon_a and_o norman_a conqueror_n urge_v not_o to_o prove_v our_o king_n absolute_a but_o to_o disprove_v such_o a_o original_a limitation_n and_o mixture_n as_o the_o adversary_n phansy_v in_o this_o monarchy_n pag._n 21._o to_o 28._o reason_n for_o such_o original_a limitation_n and_o mixture_n answer_v pag._n 28._o 29._o proof_n for_o it_o from_o his_o majesty_n grant_n answer_v pag._n 30._o 31._o 32._o sect_n v._o of_o resistance_n in_o relation_n to_o a_o absolute_a monarchy_n pag._n 33._o 34._o 35._o in_o relation_n to_o a_o limit_a monarchy_n pa._n 36._o 37._o 38._o limitation_n and_o mixture_n in_o monarchy_n do_v not_o infer_v a_o power_n of_o resistance_n in_o subject_n pag._n 39_o 40._o etc._n etc._n sect_n vi_o a_o refutation_n of_o the_o most_o considerable_a passage_n of_o his_o reply_n that_o first_o style_v himself_o author_n of_o the_o full_a answer_n pag._n 43._o to_o 56._o sect_n vii_o place_n of_o scripture_n out_o of_o the_o old_a testament_n the_o institution_n of_o the_o israelitish_n kingdom_n in_o which_o the_o jus_fw-la regis_fw-la employ_v a_o security_n from_o resistance_n pag._n 56_o 57_o 58_o 59_o the_o rescue_n of_o jonathan_n pag._n 60._o david_n demeanour_n towards_o saul_n infer_v not_o a_o power_n of_o resistance_n in_o subject_n pag._n 61_o 62._o his_o enquiry_n about_o the_o intent_n of_o the_o k●ilites_n pag._n 63._o something_o extraordinary_a in_o the_o example_n of_o david_n pag._n 64_o 65._o the_o prophet_n never_o call_v upon_o the_o elder_n of_o the_o people_n for_o this_o pretend_a duty_n of_o resistance_n pag._n 66._o sect_n viii_o of_o resistance_n forbid_v in_o the_o 13._o to_o the_o roman_n the_o place_n be_v considerable_a as_o it_o speak_v of_o government_n in_o gener_n all_o and_o as_o it_o relate_v to_o those_o time_n and_o governor_n pag._n 67_o that_o it_o be_v power_n in_o the_o plural_a and_o in_o the_o abstract_n vain_o observe_v and_o apply_v by_o the_o reverend_a divine_n pag._n 67_o 68_o 69._o that_o subjection_n be_v not_o here_o restrain_v to_o legal_a command_n in_o civil_a matter_n only_o as_o they_o will_v have_v it_o pag_n 69._o to_o 77._o that_o christian_n may_v not_o resist_v because_o religion_n than_o be_v not_o establish_v by_o law_n and_o because_o the_o emperor_n than_o be_v absolute_a as_o the_o author_n of_o the_o treat_n of_o monarchy_n will_v have_v it_o be_v not_o the_o reason_n of_o the_o apostle_n prohibition_n pag._n 77._o 78._o of_o the_o absoluteness_n of_o those_o emperor_n before_o vespasian_n time_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o senate_n and_o of_o the_o lex_fw-la regius_fw-la pag._n 79_o etc._n etc._n sect_n ix_o nine_o reason_n against_o power_n of_o resistance_n in_o subject_n draw_v from_o the_o consideration_n of_o the_o wisdom_n of_o god_n who_o put_v his_o people_n under_o king_n without_o power_n of_o resist_v they_o in_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n pag._n 84._o of_o the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n that_o place_n the_o power_n of_o 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book_n in_o clear_v the_o point_n according_a to_o his_o own_o principle_n and_o then_o come_v to_o apply_v what_o he_o have_v say_v touch_v limit_v and_o mix_v monarchy_n to_o the_o government_n of_o this_o land_n he_o complain_v of_o we_o divine_n that_o we_o plead_v for_o absolutenesle_n of_o monarchical_a power_n in_o this_o kingdom_n never_o make_v any_o difference_n of_o power_n but_o bring_v proof_n for_o subjection_n and_o against_o resistance_n from_o place_n of_o scripture_n a_o sore_a fault_n and_o example_n which_o concern_v the_o manner_n of_o the_o government_n of_o judah_n israel_n and_o the_o roman_n as_o if_o that_o which_o hold_v in_o our_o government_n do_v always_o hold_v in_o another_o so_o he_o pag._n 33._o and_o then_o he_o endeavour_v to_o prove_v this_o monarchy_n to_o be_v so_o mix_v as_o that_o the_o house_n of_o parliament_n be_v original_o join_v with_o the_o monarch_n in_o the_o sovereign_a power_n whence_o he_o think_v he_o have_v both_o a_o answer_n to_o 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stead_n and_o though_o he_o do_v not_o now_o immediate_o design_v those_o his_o vicegerent_n but_o by_o other_o mean_n be_v it_o by_o the_o choice_n of_o the_o people_n yet_o have_v they_o their_o power_n not_o from_o the_o people_n to_o who_o it_o belong_v to_o be_v govern_v and_o do_v by_o choose_v a_o governor_n seek_v a_o benefit_n safe_o but_o from_o ●od_a by_o virtue_n of_o his_o institution_n of_o government_n also_o that_o the_o govern_v power_n be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o which_o god_n give_v and_o settle_v upon_o the_o person_n that_o be_v supreme_a and_o stand_v immediate_o next_o to_o god_n between_o he_o and_o the_o people_n only_o that_o power_n may_v be_v limit_v in_o the_o exercise_n of_o it_o as_o the_o people_n by_o agreement_n at_o first_o or_o by_o petition_n after_o can_v procure_v also_o that_o where_o the_o prince_n stand_v supreme_a and_o next_o to_o ●od_a above_o all_o the_o people_n there_o subject_n may_v not_o take_v arm_n and_o make_v forceable_a resistance_n notwithstanding_o he_o be_v exorbitant_a in_o the_o exercise_n and_o use_v of_o that_o power_n to_o the_o invasion_n of_o such_o right_n and_o privilege_n as_o they_o enjoy_v by_o first_o compact_n or_o after_o procurement_n the_o pleader_n for_o resistance_n on_o the_o other_o side_n do_v wilful_o embrace_v and_o rest_n upon_o the_o opinion_n of_o heathen_a writer_n touch_v the_o beginning_n of_o government_n and_o the_o derivation_n of_o the_o govern_v power_n from_o the_o people_n as_o if_o they_o have_v not_o scripture_n which_o the_o heathen_a want_v to_o give_v they_o better_o direction_n herein_o the_o author_n of_o the_o treatise_n of_o monarchy_n seem_v to_o refer_v the_o beginning_n of_o government_n to_o god_n ordinance_n and_o to_o affirm_v the_o power_n to_o be_v from_o god_n pag._n 2._o but_o in_o the_o process_n of_o his_o book_n we_o shall_v find_v he_o derive_v it_o indeed_o from_o the_o people_n and_o pag._n 4._o he_o conclude_v thus_o for_o both_o they_o which_o say_v that_o sovereign_n have_v their_o power_n from_o god_n speak_v in_o some_o sense_n truth_n as_o also_o they_o which_o say_v that_o originallie_o power_n be_v in_o the_o people_n may_v in_o a_o sound_a sense_n be_v understand_v and_o in_o these_o thing_n we_o have_v d._n fernes_n consent_n in_o his_o discourse_n upon_o this_o subject_a sect._n 3_o answ_n you_o have_v not_o his_o consent_n in_o your_o sense_n for_o in_o that_o sect._n it_o be_v his_o intent_n to_o show_v that_o the_o govern_v power_n ay_o such_o a_o authority_n or_o sufficiency_n for_o command_n and_o coercion_n be_v from_o god_n though_o the_o designation_n of_o the_o person_n be_v by_o choice_n of_o the_o people_n and_o the_o limitation_n of_o that_o power_n in_o several_a kind_n of_o monarchy_n be_v by_o their_o consent_n and_o agreement_n now_o if_o to_o design_n the_o person_n or_o procure_v limitation_n of_o the_o power_n in_o the_o exercise_n of_o it_o be_v in_o your_o sound_a sense_n to_o give_v the_o power_n there_o be_v no_o great_a harm_n to_o we_o or_o advantage_n to_o you_o you_o must_v have_v the_o power_n original_o from_o the_o people_n in_o another_o sense_n or_o else_o you_o can_v make_v no_o pretence_n by_o it_o for_o your_o ground_n of_o resistance_n and_o so_o you_o do_v when_o you_o tell_v we_o pag._n 16._o they_o sometime_o reserve_v a_o power_n to_o oppose_v or_o displace_v the_o magistrate_n sometime_o they_o make_v the_o monarch_n supreme_a and_o then_o they_o divest_v themselves_o of_o all_o superiority_n and_o have_v no_o power_n leave_v to_o oppose_v he_o in_o person_n and_o pag._n 63._o you_o call_v they_o architectonicall_a power_n commit_v the_o power_n of_o government_n and_o arm_n etc._n etc._n this_o be_v the_o riddle_n of_o this_o govern_v power_n original_o in_o the_o people_n they_o be_v architect_n power_n but_o build_v upon_o foundation_n lay_v in_o the_o air_n they_o be_v invest_v with_o superiority_n but_o none_o can_v tell_v over_o who_o beside_o themselves_o they_o reserve_v a_o power_n but_o such_o as_o they_o never_o have_v for_o before_o government_n establish_v they_o have_v not_o any_o power_n of_o a_o community_n or_o politic_a power_n whereby_o a_o command_n may_v be_v lay_v upon_o other_o but_o only_o a_o natural_a power_n of_o private_a resistance_n wherewith_o every_o one_o of_o they_o be_v in_o particular_a endue_v which_o power_n they_o can_v use_v against_o the_o public_a magistrate_n when_o once_o they_o have_v design_v he_o now_o let_v we_o take_v a_o near_a view_n of_o the_o form_n of_o monarchy_n speak_v of_o by_o this_o author_n and_o make_v a_o few_o observation_n upon_o such_o particular_n as_o will_v be_v of_o more_o necessary_a consideration_n when_o we_o come_v to_o the_o examination_n of_o scripture_n of_o reason_n and_o of_o the_o constitution_n of_o this_o monarchy_n first_o he_o tell_v we_o absolute_a monarchy_n be_v when_o the_o sovereignty_n be_v so_o full_o in_o one_o that_o it_o have_v no_o limit_n or_o bound_n under_o god_n but_o the_o monarch_n own_o will_n so_o it_o be_v when_o a_o people_n be_v absolute_o resign_v up_o or_o do_v resign_v up_o themselves_o to_o be_v govern_v by_o one_o man_n pag._n 6._o we_o allow_v this_o description_n but_o must_v remember_v it_o below_o when_o this_o author_n will_v tell_v we_o the_o israelitish_n king_n be_v absolute_a monarch_n which_o will_v not_o appear_v by_o this_o description_n also_o when_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o to_o make_v a_o monarch_n irresistible_a be_v to_o make_v he_o absolute_a for_o we_o see_v by_o this_o description_n it_o be_v not_o the_o denial_n of_o resistance_n that_o make_v a_o monarch_n absolute_a but_o the_o denial_n of_o a_o law_n to_o bound_v his_o will_n in_o the_o next_o place_n he_o tell_v we_o he_o be_v a_o limit_a monarch_n who_o have_v a_o law_n beside_o