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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09876	A discourse, of the true and visible markes of the Catholique Churche vvritten by M. Theod. Beza. Vezelius; De veris et visibilibus Ecclesiae Catholicae notis. English	Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; T. W. (Thomas Wilcox), 1549?-1608.	1582 (1582)	STC 2014; ESTC S101560	55,907	134

falsehood although on both sides that personal succession may be found Therfore neither the succession of persons by it selfe neither such maner of consent doth of necessitie prooue a true Church for as much as where both are found yet some times there maye be a false church and there in some sort may be a true church where the pastor dissenteth from the sheepe or the sheepe from the pastor Now that men may by examples both past and present prooue that these things haue too often times fallen out no man I suppose will denie But againe they say that they dispute not of particular Churches which they graunt may fall away but of that Catholique or vniuersall Church 1. Tim. 3.15 which is the piller foundation of truth But how I pray you do they define this catholike Churche Firste by a certayne place as those that will haue catholicke and Roman to be al one Secondly by the multitude Catholique and Roman are not all one as they which vpbraide vs with fewnes Let vs see therfore what manner of arguments these be They be if they be kept within the iust rules of reasoning vnlesse I be deceaued these and such like The church of Rome teacheth so very many in respect of a very few so beleeue and so it was from hand deliuered vnto vs. Therefore this is the catholique truth But who is so far void of all reason that he seeth not here againe Petitio principij and the thing in controuersie to be taken as graunted Shew vs therefore ye Sophisters or at least wise teach vs probablie firste how a part should be the whol that we may graunt vnto you your Romish church to be a principall member of the catholicke church And then from whence I pray you haue ye learned this Romish Church to be ordayned for a perpetuall rule of truth and from whence haue ye drawen that to be true which is approued of the greatest number Verely ye shall neuer proue this out of the bookes of the old or new Testament For those corrupt argumentes Vpon this rocke I haue builded my Church Mat. 16.18 Luk. 22.23 I baue prayed for thee Peter that thy fayth faile not and that saying of Christe thrise repeated feed my sheepe Ioh. 21.15.16 with men not altogether ignorant of these thinges need not any further confutation But happely ye will prooue it out of the writinges of auncient fathers As though for sooth it were the same thing to commende the faith and religion of the church of Rome as long as it was worthy praise and to establish hir for the catholicke church or a perpetuall rule to the catholicke church And seeing that by the name of the church of Rome if these flatterers will speake that they thinke they doe vnderstand no other thing than the byshop of Rome him selfe what madnesse is this I beseech you to haue the deciding of so great a controuersie to depēd vpon that seat in which their own writers being witnes not so much the monsters of men as Sathan himselfe doth seeme to haue sit so many ages together These men replie that the dignitie it selfe and the authoritie of the seate is not taken away by the faults of the persons euen as the Leuiticall high priesthood was true then also when it was exercised by vngracious and wicked high priestes And neither do we thinke that either the dignitie or els the efficacie of the ministerie may be abolished thorowe the faultes of the ministers which thinge these men yet thinke when it pleseth them as they that hang that their transubstantiation vpon the intēt of their sacrificing priestes a very rotten coard surely but this we say that their principle being graunted to wit that the Byshop of Rome is that head that should stand the catholique church as in stead of a soule it must altogether followe that this head be wyse if they will haue all his members that is the particular Churches to be wise And againe if that be frantick that the whole Churche must be franticke also Now that the Romish Bishoppes haue beene franticke many ages together not onely as priuate men but specially also as Bishops that is to say that euerie one of them almost haue bene not onely the most wicked of all men in respecte of their conuersation which thing these men can not denie vnlesse they woulde rather be conuinced by their owne testimonies but also as concerning the points of our religion whilst that partly they haue neglected all true religion and partly also haue set them selues against it so much that which thing two or three ages ago Petrarcha hath written whose verses they commend Rome hath beene a thousande yeeres at the least the temple of heresie and hath vtterly subuerted as much as was in hir all the offices of Christ yea so far forth that shee hath exalted hir selfe aboue Christe him selfe as the Apostles Iohn and Paule greater than all exception haue fore tolde all the beste approoued writers Gréeke Latin being the Byshops of other churches so interpreting the same vnlesse we haue sufficiently heretofore proued it we are ready again to prooue it before all vpright iudges Let this controuersie therefore be firste decided O yea Sophisters before that ye of this fained foundation as it were graunted vnto you But go to let vs graunt that the Byshoppes of Rome were suche whose so great and large succession is alleadged by these men Who yet vnlesse he be vtterly out of his wittes will therefore conclude that the bishop of Rome is the vniuersall head to whome who so euer doth cleaue is to be iudged a true member of the Catholique Church And yet these be the sophistications of these goodly fellowes which will haue catholique and Roman to be one and the selfe same thing to wit because Paule wrote that in his time Rom. 1.18 the faith of the Romans was famous throughout all the world But how much more rightly nowe may we say that the stenche of that whore hath not onely filled the earth but hath ascended also euen to heauen and that excellent epistle of the Apostle written to the olde Romans ought now truely to be written againste the Romans their successors Let vs now come vnto those who esteeme their catholicke churche The Catholike Church must not be esteemed by the multitude by the number and glorious shew of pages or seriaunts Verely if these men speake truth Christ and his flocke shall iustly be pronounced excommunicat and that multitude shal be the catholicke church which so often times cried out Take him away Mat. 26.23 take him away crucifie him The Apostle also shall be found a lyar writing to the Corinthians Brethren yee see your calling 1. Cor. 1.26 that we are not many wise according to the fleshe not many mightie not many noble to be shorte then these men shall be worthie whom to confute we may take paines when either by reason or examples

yet a lawfull succession remayned as it was done against the Donatistes or againste them whiche brought forth new bookes of our religion as were in the beginning almost an infinite nūber as [a] I suppose that he speketh here of Simō Magus mentioned in Act. 8. of whom many thinges are writtē in the old writers specially he affirmed that Christe was not come neither suffered any thing of the Iewes but that he himself was Christ Simon [b] He amongst other things taught that Christ the sonne of God tooke not mans flesh of the virgin but that he had a spirituall or heauēly body which passed thorow the virgin Marie as water thorovv a pipe or Conduit He vvas about the yeere 150. Valentine [c] He affirmed that Christ appeared not in the substance of flesh but in a phantasticall body that one Simon vvas crucified in his steede about the yeare 124. Basilides [d] He taught that Christe vvas not very man and that he ascended into heauen vvithout his flesh and first made lavves for abstinence from meates and marriages hee vvas in the yeare 180. Montane to conclude the whole troup of most shamelesse men After this sort the Fathers of right iudgement gathered and reserued against these Such as pretended to be inspired vvith reuelations The Messalian heretiques vvere so called who affirmed that baptisme and the Lords supper did neither profit nor hurt but that those whiche gaue themselues to prayer onely or sleeping should be inspired vvith the spirite vvhich being once receyued aftervvards they had no need of the word or any other exercise of godlines but that he that vvas so inspired vvas altogether vvithout sinne and did foresee thinges to come and did sometimes behold God with their eies Enthusiasts saying If your doctrine be true eyther there hath not beene euer yet anye churche or the doctrine which you alleage is old and ancient But that both these thinges are false appeareth by that both because the apostles haue gathered together the churche of Christe and you teach your doctrines as taken not out of the writings of the Apostles but as newely reuealed vnto you by the holy ghost And agayne sayd the fathers both these things appeare by that that we count the beginnings of our churches by ascending vpward euen to the Apostles themselues but you could not haue receiued from the Apostles your thinges which ye first deuised Here remained one thing which the moste subtile of those moste fantasticall persons obiected to wit that all things were not reuealed to the apostles and therfore that men ought to beleeue their reuelations also But Tertulian whom I maruail could afterward be deceiued which Montanus holy ghoste most plentifully and strongly confuteth this prescription shewing that the Lord hath neither kept backe any thing from the apostles the chiefe builders of his church nor agayn that the apostles haue concealed any of those things which they had receiued of Christe After this sort I say the fathers vsed the argument of the succession of persons agaynste those heretiques altogether by demonstration as it were But they vsed it not in like sorte against the [a] So called of Paulus Samosatenus vvho denied the sonne of God to haue descended from heauén but that Christ did proceed from Marie in the earth hee was about the yeare 372. Samosatans [b] So called of one Sabellius who taught that there was but onely one person in the godhead confessed that the trinity was distincted in respect of names only not in respecte of persons He was about the yeare 320. Sabellians [c] So called of one Arrius who affirmed that the Son was not truly naturally God neither coeternall with the father but to haue had a beginning to be made of nothing he was about the yere 320 Arrians [d] So called of one Pellagius who held free will and that euery man might obtayne saluation by his owne workes that infants were borne vvithout originall sin and that Adam hurt himselfe onely by his fall He vvas about the yeare 466. Pelagians to be short againste anye with whome the questyon was not of the very bookes but of the meaning because this had beene verie foolishe Briefly therfore I answere these two thinges that the auncient Fathers whose authoritie these men shameleslie abuse haue neither at any time seperated the succession of their bishops from the succession of the Apostolical doctrine nor haue set this succession against any other heretiques but against those of whom some new reuelation was pretended As at this day of the [a] They mayntaine amongest other errors reuelations and take avvay the baptisme of infants Anabaptistes [b] They casting a side all feare of God vvhat so euer hold that men may lyue as they list Libertines [c] So called of one Casper Svvingfeldius vvho held the same matters that the Anabaptistes do Swingfeldians And therefore for as muche as now the controuersie is betwixt the Romanistes and vs for two thinges onely to wit for the interpretation of the Scripture and whether the wrytinges of the Prophetes and Apostles doe most fully contayne what so euer we ought to beleeue it is prooued that they in the first point impudently abuse the example of the fathers in alleadging against vs the argument of succession and in the other is ministred vnto vs a sure weapon to confute them And that this succession also was alleadged against the Donatistes as Schismatickes this nothing toucheth vs whom these men account not properly for Scismatickes but for heretiques of which thing notwithstanding we will say some thing in his proper place a That the false church of Rome is not onely not propped vp by the argument deriued frō the personal succession of the apostles but also ouerthrown although the questiō be not of the doctrine But go to let vs gratify them a litle and which thing may be done without any preiudice of the trueth Let vs graunt vnto these men how much force soeuer they can imagine of that their personall succession What shall this I besech you help their cause b That there vvas neuer any Apostolicall vniuersall ministeriall head and therefore that his succession is not Apostolicall For that we may begin at the highest step of their Hierarchie or priestlike gouernement as they call it that is at that vniuersall mynisteriall head vnto whome they afterwarde appropriated the name of Pope which before was common to all Bishoppes they shal as easely finde the Diuell him selfe in the kingdome of God as any such head either in the bookes of the● newe Testament or in the auncient church For verie children know this how false folish and absurd arguments they be whatsoeuer they bring out of the scriptures to proue the same And as concerning the history of that auncient purer church that is to say in this behalfe verelie euen to the tymes of that manslaier Phocas they shall finde