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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14828	A dialogue betwixt a secular priest, and a lay gentleman. Concerning some points objected by the Iesuiticall faction against such secular priests, as haue shewed their dislike of M. Blackwell and the Iesuits proceedings..	Mush, John.; Watson, William, 1559?-1603.	1601 (1601)	STC 25124.5; ESTC S101830	96,830	158

and religious cariage Neyther haue I rehearsed thus much for any other end than to let you know how that the report is to be verefied of them and not of vs secular priests and how vnder the profession of Iesuits all be not mortified but some haue very politicke and stirring heads yea in the waightiest matters that are And for Father Pa sons that he more beats his brains about state matters than about the exercise of a religious life it is euident by this one thing I will now tell you besides all I haue sayd before or may justly bee sayd of him VVhiles he was in Spaine you see how he tossed ouer the Titles and Claims to the crowne of England but besides this he wrot two books of the Reformation of all the states of England There the deuout Iesuit setteth vpon the Court. To rule in it hee maketh orders for reformation of the prince and courtiers and appointeth what they shall obserue in their gouernment and liuing The court of Parliament he will haue brought to better forme Then prescribeth he reformations to the Bishops prelats and pastors they must away with pompe and superfluities and be put to their pensions there he setteth downe obseruances to all the secular states and taketh vpon him to reforme the Counsellors Noblemen the gentrie Yeomanrie and all Then he censureth the Law and appointeth what reformations are to bee made in it and in the Lawyers He commeth to the Vniuersities and Colledges and in them hee will haue strange Metamorphoses He dealeth with Cities also and Corporations Townes Villages Artisans escape not the Censurers rod. No religious orders must be admitted within the realme except Iesuits and reclused Carthusians No Abbey lands must be restored except that of S. Ihones for erecting Colledges and houses for the Iesuits This and much more stirre he maketh as diuers haue told me tampering in all estates and yet Fa. Par. and Iesuits entermeddle not with prophane matters of estate Gent. Surely the Father hath a great conceit of his owne wit that he can rule a kingdome Priest Doubt you not of that and this conceit of his was much encreased when hee saw the Spaniards so to approue and commend his plot and the Ladie Infanta promised him that these bookes of Reformation should be put in execution when she should be Queene of England Gent. Haue you these bookes Priest No. They be in England but imparted to none except the Iesuits trustie friends by whom the hearts of other men are disposed against the day to come Gent. I perceiue that Iesuits are the only statesmen of Christendome Priest They delight to bee tampering but euer they doe rather harme than good thereby As is manifest in Portugall in England and in Scotland in which countrey of Scotland truly I haue heard that a Catholicke Earle hath many times bewayled the state and misfortune of their people aboue ours of England in that the Iesuits Fa. Hawood Fa. Creighton Fa. Gordion Father Abercomie which came first among them endeuoured not so much to plant Catholicke religion nor to bring their people to the sincere and deuout profession thereof as they plotted about state matters how to disquiet and subuert the temporall gouernement VVhereas contrariwise your English priests said he brought in religion and respected only to draw the people to vnitie of the Catholicke Church and to vertuous life whereby you haue religion and the sincere practise therof and our heads are still troubled with state matters and wee know not what religion meaneth Gent. VVhat did those graue Iesuits carry themselues no better in their entrance into Scotland Pr. That good Earle reported so And surely it was much-what as hee said For the good charitable Fathers so greatly respected the temporall states of their countreymen that they tooke a sure course for their safeties for as much as concerned religion Gent. VVhat meane you by this Pr. No more but that they tooke order and prouided that no Catholicke should bee damnified in their temporall estates for cause of their religion Gent. How could they doe this vnlesse there bee not such strict lawes against Catholickes in Scotland as we in England haue Priest They haue as sharpe lawes in this point as we but thus the wise Iesuits preuented all dangers They freely permitted Catholickes to goe to church with protestants and made no sinne nor scruple of this as we doe And thus no law could take hold on them for who could be knowne to be a Catholicke Gent. Did they graunt this libertie to all Pr. In this sort they did it If one were a notorious knowne Catholicke where hee came then they taught it to bee vnlawfull in that place to goe to church by reason of scandale and no otherwise But if one were not certainely knowne to bee such a Catholicke he might goe without offence vpon condition that if he heard any hereticall doctrine preached which mooued him to doubt in any point of faith he should presently come to some of those Fathers to be resolued Gent. This was prettie jugling and they were like to haue good Catholickes by this meanes Priest This in truth they did and their Catholicks were as good for this point as they desire to haue thē For it was an intollerable miserie to see houses ouerthrowne and men to leese their lands and goods for a precise course when so small a matter as this would saue all Gent. Saue all All had better haue been lost than saued in this sort But did they al agree in this course Priest All these auncient and wife Fathers agreed vpon it and practised as I haue told you Two punie Iesuits to wit Fa. Holt at the beginning and Father Oglebie since euer misliked and in what they durst gainestood them in this opinion and practise But these two being young men subject to the old their opposition was rejected and they put to silence Gent. I wonder those men being accounted graue vertuous and learned would take this course to reclaime their countrey from heresie and schisme They seemed to make no other reckoning of going to church with protestants than that it was onely scandalous and daungerous for infection which two sins might in some sort haue been preuented or hindered by the meanes you say they tooke But did they neuer know nor call to mind that it was sinne of it owne nature as being a manifest externall profession of a false religion as we account it Pr. They could not but know it if the ouermuch desire to saue the temporall estates of their Catholickes did not blind their vnderstanding or make them to neglect the due examination of the case which latter I cannot thinke of them because Father Holt and Fa. Oglebie in open words and disputes condemned the fact Gent. But our English Iesuits euer practised and taught the contrary to those Scottish Iesuits Pr. They haue done so for any thing that euer I heard to the contrarie except once that Fa. Bosgraue went

all them of the Spanish faction in Rome the hope wherewith he dayly feedeth them of bringing this to passe by his owne pollicies and the helpes he can procure in England causeth them to admire the man and him to be most highly esteemed among them Gent. It is very ridiculous if they should bee so simple as to think Fa. Parson to be able when the day commeth to set the crowne of England vpon whose head it pleaseth him or that he should haue so strong a partie in England as are of power to beare the best game away and dispose thereof at his pleasure Priest They neuer heard that hee was sonne to a blacke-smiths wife but take him perhaps to be some nobleman and allied with many great ones And indeed for his imperious carriage he may easily seeme to strangers to be better descended than in truth hee is For hee is exceeding bold of great vndertaking and can set out all he hath to the best shew Besides a kingdome is an object of that alluring qualitie as the very simple-wishing of a man thereto procureth liking and fauours much more the entiteling a prince thereto and deuising meanes to compasse the same Gent. It is so but Fa. Parsons is much esteemed of by most Catholickes in England yea and of many Protestants also by reason of his booke of Resolution and the Seminaries hee hath procured for our Nation Pr. As this booke of Resolution was a good work and woon him all the credit which was due to Granado that laid the platforme to Father Parsons hand and gaue him the principall grounds and matter thereof and which also was deserued by maister Brinckley for the penning as diuers report so no doubt the libell he writ against the Earle of Leicester and the other against the old L. Treasurer and this worke of Succession whereby he entitleth the Ladie Infanta to the crowne of England with disgracing all other Titles and Competitors hath got him much hatred and discredit in England and Scotland If the booke were his it was well done and he deserued commendation for it and surely if he had gone forward with the other two parts as he promised hee had spent these twentie yeares and moe both more to Gods honour and the good of his countrey and to his own greater merit than he hath done by all his other polliticke stickling in matters of State or by his cunning his violent his contentious and his vnconscionable proceedings otherwise But his head was too busie and ouermuch prophaned and greatly it is to be feared his dealing considered in Spaine and in Rome also against our students and the two good priests we sent thether about this authoritie again his deceiuing the Pope by false information both in procuring the authoritie by incensing him against the priests that when he finished that booke of Resolution he made an end also therewith of deuotion sinceritie and honest dealing It is no certaine nor probable argument to proue a man to be a Saint or a vertuous and a good man because in times past he hath written a vertuous booke yea or because hee writeth one in the present For this abilitie consisteth principally in the power of a mans vnderstanding whereas vertue and goodnesse as well supernaturall as naturall resteth in the will and affecteth the operations thereof Lucifer that damned fiend was a Cherubin of highest intelligence hee and his wicked angels exceed all men in wit and knowledge and want no skill to contriue and make spirituall bookes of absolute perfection yet this great knowledge of theirs neithet maketh them good nor can argue them to be vertuous spirits as long as their will is peruerted The like we may say of Adam that neither his great graces wherein he was created nor his supernaturall gifts which remain after his fall in both which states he had sufficient skill to deliuer to the world as good doctrine as Fa. Parson hath done could proue him to be a good man when he had cast himselfe out of the state of grace into sinne and the fame is true also in euery learned man beeing in mortall sinne and in Fa. Parson himselfe if at any time since he hath beene in that damnable state by their sinne they are depriued of justifying grace and other supernaturall vertues depending therupon but their faith their hope and knowledge gotten before their fall remaineth still by which they may teach and write as perfect doctrine as before they could Yea I haue heard Doctor Stapleton report of certaine bookes written vpon the holy Scripture by Iohn Caluin that they contained excellent good morall doctrine and if the heresies entermingled therewith were cancelled that they might be read with great profite and pleasure and yet no Catholicke will denie but that Caluine notwithstanding all this was a great enemie to the Romane religion Did not Salomon write many deuine volumnes and yet afterwards he became a bad man Now let Fa. Parsons booke goe with that deserued commendations what hee was good or bad whiles hee writ it for hee might bee either I cannot judge and I will suppose the best but what hee hath been since his owne bad actions yeeld presumptions ouer-pregnant and probable that sometimes he hath been no Saint nor sincere honest man Gent. In my conceit it is a manifest signe of a defect in wisedome judgement and discretion for any so worthely to valew a man for one or many his good actions past that when after the same he doeth euill he will not beleeue or see it or else in manifest faults stand to justifie and defend him by reason hee was once a good man or had done well before For mens judgements should be conformable to the object or otherwayes they cannot be true and in this though the precedēt good actions ought to stay a man from rash judgement and to make euery one suspend his censure vntill he be assured of the fact yet when his euill doing is once apparant a wise man should not let his affection cary him away to judge blacke to be white or a man fall'n to vice to remaine still a saint Priest VVell then you see that Fa. Parsons booke of Resolution made aboue twentie yeeres agoe cannot justifie nor ought not to patronize his naughtie actions committed since no nor in the judgement of any man to prejudice our cause and vs in these contentions we haue with him Gent. In reason it should be so but yet the Seminaries in Spaine saint Omers erected by his means haue gotten him much credit cause men to thinke him the bestfriend our Countrey hath Pr. If men would judicially consider what he hath done in this point perhaps they would thinke worse of him and his actions than they doe For albeit there be now by his meanes moe Semenaries for our yong studients than before yet doublesse our Countrey reapeth much lesse benefit now by all than it did of old by the two onely of Rome and