name that is solitarie and not collegiate moonkes But the beléeuers at Ierusalem were at Ierusalem in a citie and liued in fellowship together Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth and therefore Ierom was deceiued Hart. I will not beléeue on your worde that so worthie a Father was deceiued Rainoldes If you will not on my worde I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it For writing to Paulinus touching the training vp of moonkes he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow but S. Antonie and others who dwelt in fieldes and deserts Hart. He saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes and Bishops not to moonkes True in some respectes And yet me thinkes too But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so through ouersight Rainoldes If they might be deceiued so through ouersight they might be deceiued through affection also For they were men and subiect to it As Cyprian through too much hatred of heretikes condemned the baptisme of heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell erred with him As Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the diuels them â—elues should be saued at length As Tertullian through spite of the Roman clergie reuolted to the Montanists and called the Catholikes carnall men because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting Hart. We condemne these errours in them as well as you and doo therein except against them Rainoldes You doo except also I trow I am sure your Doctors doo against Damascene for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour that Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voyce from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked A verie great affection to prayers for the dead that moued Damascene to write this For it is against the doctrine of the Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell In Purgatorie they say they may Hart. S. Thomas doth confirme the same Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege which doth not breake the common law Rainoldes But your Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then beside that he was greatly affected to Damascen And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer he doth affirme so lustily that all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story But Canus as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are the most of them did wisely sée noteth fréely that not onely later and lesse discreete autours as he who made the golden legend but also graue ancient learned holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes partly while they fetched the truth where it is seldom from common rumors and reportes partly while they sought to please the peoples humor and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which coÌ„monly are counted true Of this sorte he nameth Gregorie and Bede the one for his Dialogues the other for his English story He might haue named Damascene with them Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others but coyned lyes themselues too wrote those thinges of Saintes which their fansie liked though neither true nor likely As that S. Frauncis was wont to take lise that were shaken off and put them on himselfe it was a lowsie tricke and S. Frauncis did it not but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse Likewise that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike S. Dominike constrained him to hold a candle in his handes till the candle being spent did put him to great grief in burning his fingers Such examples there are innumerable but these two may giue a taste of their affection who haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice And Canus although he confesse it as euident notwithstanding which is straunge he thinketh them vnwise Bishops who seeke to reforme it For while they cure the nailesore saith he they hurt the head that is in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre that scarce any shew of the olde religion is remaining in it A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed For though they haue remoued some of those stories which Canus saith are vncertaine forged friuolous and false yet haue they doon it sparingly If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer which heretikes would haue laught at and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion saue that their seruice is in Latin Hart. These thinges are impertinent but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life or S. Dominikes or the golden legend that old moth-eaten booke as D. Harding calleth it of the liues of Saintes I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers but of olde and ancient whom Canus iudgeth better of then of the younger For he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis and Antoninus that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine as to let go nothing that they found writeÌ„ in any papers whatsoeuer But of Bede and Gregorie he iudgeth more softly and rather excuseth them then reproueth them Though iudge he how he listed he was but one Doctour and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement both for younger and elder writers Rainoldes They who deale with taming of lyons I haue read are wont when they finde them somewhat out of order to beate dogges before them that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life or of S. Dominikes or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it though he who wrote it was an Archbishop in his time a man of name and his booke a legend read publikely in Churches and called golden for the excellencie but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer or Antoninus if you will and Vincentius Beluacensis who are as good as he welnigh you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake but for the lions rather I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too For as not Rupertus
two and twentéeth as they number it For where it should be read as our Latin hath it and the Greeke also they haue pearced my hands and my feete the Hebrues now do reade not Caaru that is they haue pearced but Caari that is as a Lion as a Lion my hands and my feete Whereby a notable prophecie describing so plainely the maner and kind of the passion of Christ should bée taken out of our hands through the trechery of the Iewes if wée should folow the Hebrew text as it is now But it is so manifestly knowne to be corrupted that your selues though allowing the Hebrew as authenticall yet folowe it not in this place in your English Bibles Rainoldes This is the onely argument that Lindan hath of any shew to proue that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text But if it be weighed with an euen ballance you shall find it a meere cauill For what will you say of your owne selues Did the Church of Rome corrupt the Latin text in the third of Genesis where it is read of the woman she shall bruse thy head for that which should be read of thewomans séed he shall bruse thy head Hart. Some of your men say so But they do great iniury to the Church therin Rainoldes They haue as great cause at least if not greater to say this of Romanistes as you the other of the Iewes For if we match the prophecies this is more notable which is corrupted in your Latin of the victorie of Christ ouer Satan and ours through him If we compare errors this is more manifest in so much that it is proued to be an error euen by Lindan also not onely by others and the Hebrue text with the Chaldee paraphrase and the Greeke translation do all make against it as the Diuines of Louan graunt Hart. But this might créepe in by some humane ouersight or negligence of scriueners as sundry such errours haue crept in to writen bookes of all sortes euen in the best copies The words ipsa and ipse in which the variance lyeth doo not so greatly differ but that a man might easily mistake the one for the other Rainoldes No more do the wordes Caaru Caari The differēce is as smal Wherfore if the one might be an ouersight of scriueners in the Latin as you say and truely why might not the other be likewise in the Hebrew as it is gessed by Andradius And that it was so it is declared at large by Arias Montanus who for his singular knowledge and iudgement both in artes and tongues was chosen as I said to ouersée the setting foorth of that famous Bible in Hebrewe Chaldee Greeke and Latin which was printed at Anwerpe with the approbation of your Popes and Doctors For in the sixth tome of that worke he sheweth that when the Iewes returned into their countrey after their captiuitie of seuentie yeares in Babylon it befell vnto them partly by occasion of their long troubles which did distract their mindes partly by corruption of their natiue tongue which was growne out of kind first into the Chaldee and afterward into the Syriake that they neither knewe nor pronounced so wel the words of the scripture writen as the maner was without vowels Whereby it came to passe that in the writing of them their crept in some faulte either through iniury of the times or by reason of troubles which fell vpon the people or by negligence of some scriueners But this inconuenience was met withall afterward by most learned men such as Esdras was and afterward Gamaliel Ioseus Eleazar and other of great name who prouided by common trauell with great care and industry that the text of scripture and the true reading thereof should be preserued most sound and vncorrupt And from these men or from their instruction being receaued and poolished by their scholers in the ages folowing there came saith he as we iudge that most profitable treasure which is called Masoreth that is to say a deliuery because it doth deliuer aboundantly and faithfully all the diuers readings that euer were of the Hebrewe Bibles Wherein there appeareth an euident token of the prouidence of God for the preseruation of the sacred bookes of scripture whole and sound that the Masóreth hath beene kept till our time these many hundred yeares with such care and diligence that in sundry copies of it which haue bene writen no difference was euer found and it hath beene added in all the writen Bibles that are in Europe Afrike or Asia each of them agreing throughly therein with other euen as it is printed in the Venice-bibles to the great wonder of them who reade it Now in this Masoreth made so long ago so diligently writen so faithfully kept in so many countryes through so many ages as Arias Montanus witnesseth the Iewes them selues acknowledge by their owne testimonie that where in common bookes it is read Caari in certaine it is Caaru Wherefore if some Iewish scriueners who wrote out bookes depraued it of malice and spite which might be though they who accuse them doo bring neither autour nor time nor any sure argument to proue it but if some depraued it yet séeing their Masôreth doth note the diuerse reading and in part doth iustifie that which is the truer it is hard to charge them as you doo with corrupting of the Hebrewe text Much harder then if we should charge your Romish church with corrupting of the Latin where you read ipsa in stéed of ipse not he but she shall bruse thy head Hart. Not so for we haue kept also that reading ipse euen in our vulgar Latin translation For the Diuines of Louan do note that it is found in two writen copies And we do confesse it to be more agréeable both to the Hebrewe text and the Chaldee paraphrase the Greeke translation yea that S. Ierom read it so too as you may see in the Notations of Franciscus Lucas to which our latin Bibles set forth by the Diuines of Louan doo referre you Rainoldes Yet Franciscus Lucas doth wrangle still about it and saith that all the Latin copies which they could finde doo read it ipsa and of the two which you mention he doubteth whether one did folow the Latin or the Hebrewe and hee maketh shew of proofe that the Hebrew may well agree to the Latin with a litle hammering of it Yea and that is more as in al the Bibles that I haue séene of yours the Latin hath ipsa not ipse shee not he though your greatest frends haue wished you forshame to mēd it so in an Hebrue text of the famous Bible of king Philip which but now I mētioned the word he is altered according to the latin shee and that not of errour but of purpose as it is witnessed by Franciscus Lucas Which is greater boldnes in corrupting the Hebrue thē you can
to winne you to the truth doo bring you the confessions of your own men who witnesse a truth Hart. A truth Why will you graunt vs that the Popes supremacie came in by tradition if we will graunt you that it can not be proued by scripture Rainoldes By tradition I if you meane tradition as S. Peter doth where he teacheth Christians that they are redeemed from their vaine conuersation of the tradition of their Fathers Hart. You are disposed to play with your owne fansies You know my meaning well enough Will you graunt that it came in by tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes I should play in déede with your owne fansies if I should graunt you that Hart. But they whom you alleaged doo say that it did so as your selfe haue shewed Rainoldes But I will proue that they spake no truer in that then you haue doone in the other Hart. But what an iniurie is this to presse mee with their former wordes of the scripture whereas your selfe beleeue not the later of tradition Rainoldes What thinke you of S. Paule Did hee beleeue those thinges which the heathnish Poets do write of Goddes and Goddesses Bacchus Diana Minerua Mercurie Hart. He did not What then Rainoldes Yet he alleaged them to perswade the Athenians that in God we liue and moue and haue our being What an iniury was that to presse the Athenians with Poets words of God whereas himselfe beléeued not their wordes of Gods and Goddesses Hart. The Poets might say well and did in the former though in the later they missed Rainoldes Now wil you deale as frendly with me as with S. Paule His case and mine are coosins Hart. Nay you in the selfe same sentence of our men cull out a péece of it and yet an other péece of it you allow not Rainoldes Euen so did S. Paule For that which he auouched out of their owne Poets the meaning of it is in sundry the very wordes in Aratus they spake it of Iupiter who was a wicked man but thought of them to be God S. Paule allowing not their error in the person culled out their sentence concerning the thing and proued a truth by it Hart. Well if you may diuide the sentence of Canus and other sort then I haue done Rainoldes That I wish For the truth is like vnto camomill the more you presse it down the faster it groweth and spreadeth fairer and smelleth sweeter Hart. So much of scripture then Now to tradition by which the Popes supremacie may be cléerely proued Rainoldes By tradition Why Do you acknowlege then that it cannot be proued by scripture Hart. I tell you no once againe How often must I say it Rainoldes Once saying will serue if you do not vnsay your saying But here in my iudgement you séeme to vnsay it For you disclaime the title pretended by scripture when you claime by tradition Hart. Why so Might not the same thing both be writen in scripture and deliuered by word of mouth Rainoldes It might was no dout as the traditions shew which S. Paule doth mention which signify the doctrine that hee deliuered out of the scriptures But you meane a doctrine not writen in the scriptures when you speake of tradition For you doo imagin that the gospell of Christ is partly contained in writen bookes that is the scriptures partly in vnwriten things that is traditions as the Iewish Rabbines do say that God by Moses deliuered not only the law that is writen but also an vnwriten law which they call Cabala Hart. Sée as the Iewish Rabbines You haue inured your mouth to such venemous spéeches· Rainoldes Beware or els through my side you will wound your freend For Bishop Peresius your chiefest patrone of traditions doth proue them solemnly by this point of the Iewish Rabbins and the Cabala Neither is the proofe vnfit if it be weighed For as they pretend this ground for the Cabala that it openeth the hidden meaning of the scriptures so do you for traditions And as they in processe of time brought in doctrine contrarie to the scriptures vnder pretense of traditions so do you with your Cabala And as Cabalists among the Iewes do call them scripture-men by way of reproch who cast off traditions and cleaue to scriptures only so doo traditionists among you reproch vs with the same terme Yea Lindan and Prateolus doo note it for a speciall heresie But to leaue this venemous spéech it is manifest that you renounce the scripture for proofe of any title which you lay claime to by tradition For scripture is writen tradition vnwriten Wherefore if by tradition you minde to proue the Popes supremacie you must acknowlege first that it cannot be proued by scripture If you bee not willing to ackonwlege that I must debarre you from tradition Hart. Then I will proue it by the Fathers Rainoldes Nay that you shall not neither vnlesse you will forgo the scripture Hart. And why so I pray Rainoldes Because they say forsooth that it is held by tradition So that their euidences make against you if scripture be your plea for it Hart. That is very false For by the words Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke in the sixtéenth of Matthew the first Popes of Rome most holy martyrs haue proued it Anacletus Alexander the first Pius the first Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Eusebius Melchiades Iulius Damasus and likewise others by other places as D. Stapleton alleageth farther Wherefore that the Fathers tooke it as you say to be held by tradition it is a flat lye Rainoldes Say you so Then Canus and Father Robert do lye flatly but that is no maruell who grounding it both on tradition the one doth cite for witnesses thereof the first Popes of Rome most holy martyrs Anacletus Sixtus the first Eleutherius Victor Sixtus the second Zepherinus Marcellus Melchiades Marcus Iulius the other not contenting himselfe with particulars doth alleage in grosse fâ—â—st the generall Councels next the Popes and last the Fathers Hart. Yet more of Canus and Father Robert I take not their defense vpon me and why againe doo you tell me of them Rainoldes That you may sée how the Lord doth sheath the swordes of Madianites in their own sides to the confusion of them who pitch their campe against Israel For the same Popes which are alleaged by Canus to prooue that their supremacie is an vnwritten truth the verie same Popes are alleaged by Stapleton to prooue that it is writen euen Anacletus Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Melchiades and Iulius Yea and that is more the very same epistles of theirs are alleaged by Stapleton which by Canus If rightly by Canus how may we trust Stapleton If rightly by Stapleton how may wee trust Canus If rightly by them both what trimme Popes are they who with one
and loosing giuen Peter as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope Denys saith the contrarie that it is common to all Bishops Whereby you may perceiue beside that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie though I haue shewed it doth not but if it did yet your commoÌ„ reason from Peters supremacie to the Popes is iointlesse For he who calleth Peter chiefe of the Apostles yet maketh Bishops equal and giueth Rome no greater priuilege then Antioche or Ierusalem But to knit vp that which brought vs vnto this of Denys you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures Hart. I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it For the Church doth holde it I meane the Catholike Church of Rome Rainoldes In that your Rhemists lauish too For though the lying Greekes as your Molanus calleth them doo vouch it very boldly yet the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine Yea the verie Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death but where it hath pleased God to hide her body the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously then to holde and teach some friuolous thing forged How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor first of a Papist who saith that it is certaine she was assumpted by death not onely in soule but in body also then of the Pope who setting foorth his new Portesse saith that those things which are vncertaine are put out where this is left in which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine But your Rhemists passe Who as though the Porâ—esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene though it mende his tale with more then one lye they take that which their Portesse doth tell them lye and al and father it vpon S. Denys that it may haue the greater credit Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account I dout not of this which they haue writen when they shall heare what is said against it And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his preseÌ„ce at the departure of our Lady I must referre to them For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it But why do you presse that point about the Fathers touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes or meaning or consequent of the scriptures We are past the scriptures and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them Rainoldes But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures and ouershoote them selues in the word of God they may be deceiued in the word of man too and either not conceiue well or not remember well or not conclude well of it Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius For he reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers doth it he saith for this reason because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria hath praised the Christians reporting them to be not onely there but in many countries and calling their dwelling places Monasteries Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ at the first was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie none is rich amongst them none poore their patrimonies are distributed to the needy they giue them selues wholy to prayer and to singing of Psalmes and to learning and to continencie of life such as S. Luke also doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men that is of men Apostolike is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray because they did contemplate studie and meditate heauenly things and prayed to God alwayes Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein that the pointes of contemplation and prayer being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church did make him to mistake the one for the other as likenes they say is the mother of error but that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke it may appeere by foure circumstances of names of deedes of times and of places For they of whom Philo doth write were called Essees which was a sect of Iewes of whom some liued in action and some in contemplation The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees either contemplatiue or actiue Againe they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes or daughters or kinsemen or if they had no kinsemen to their friendes The Christians gaue them to the poore and such as stood in need of succour Moreouer the solemne day which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught was the seuenth day of the weeke which was the Sabbat of the Iewes the saterday as we cal it The Christians were wont to meete on the first day of the weeke that is sonday the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it Finally they whom Philo discourseth of did liue in no towne or citie but without in gardens and solitarie places The Christians liued in cities Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria were planted in the citie Alexandria it selfe whereas it is precisely noted by Philo that his Iewish moonkes did dwell about it and without it Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake or had forgot the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them yet he thereof inferred amisse that the moonkes in his time were such as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed as Peter saith to Ananias while it remained perteined it not to thee And when it was sold was it not in thine own power But Ierom saith that his moonks may not haue proprietie in any thing of their owne Beside the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues vsed them for any thing that S. Luke sheweth Though by the way to note the difference betwéene the Iewish moonkes the Christian who els would be too like some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues did beget childreÌ„ which I haue not read that anie of the Iewish did Last of all the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane as he must néedes by Philo were moonkes according to their
same fauour if I would admit it VVhich I grounding my selfe vpon the most certayne foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for euer did gladly yeeld to and as became me accepted of it with all dutie VVherevpon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to conferre with me taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoeuer bookes I did neede thereto But after we had spent certayne weekes together in conference by word of mouth and I continued still in my former mind he desired to haue the summe thereof in writing that he might see the groundes on which I stood And to this intent we set downe together breefe notes of the points that we dealt in I shewing my reasons with the places of the autours whose iudgement and learning I rather trusted too then to my owne skill and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good Howbeit those notes being so short as pointing to thinges rather then vnfolding them that they could not well bee vnderstood by any but our selues onely vnlesse they were drawne more largely and at full my selfe being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death as altogether vncertaine when I might be called to yeeld vp mine account before God and man requested M. Rainoldes to take paines to penne them according to our notes thereof Promising him that I would peruse it when he had doon it and allow of it if it were to my mind or otherwise correct if I misliked ought in it This paines he vndertooke and sending me the partes thereof from time to time as he finished them I noted such thinges as I would haue added or altered therein and he performed it accordingly But when I perceiued that it was prepared to be set foorth in print I sought meanes to stay it all that I could for some considerations which seemed to me very great and important Marry since that againe vnderstaÌ„ding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward wherevnto he granted me also by speciall warrant the vse of such bookes as I should call for to helpe my selfe withall I set afresh vpon it by letters written vnto M. Rainoldes receiued from him I had mine owne speeches reasons perfitted as I would VVherefore I acknowledge that he hath set downe herein a true report of those things which past in conference betweene vs according to the grounds and places of the autours which I had quoted referred my self too As for that which he affirmeth in one place that I haue told him that my opinion is the Pope may not depose Princes in deede I told him so much And in truth I thinke that although the spiritual power be more excelleÌ„t worthie theÌ„ the temporall yet they are both of God neither doth the one depend of the other VVherevpon I gather as a certaine conclusion that the opinion of them who holde the Pope to be a temporall Lord ouer Kings Princes is vnreasonable and vnprobable altogether For he hath not to meddle with theÌ„ or theirs ciuilly much lesse to depose them or giue away their kingdomes that is no part of his commission He hath in my iudgment the Fatherhoode of the Church not a Princehood of the world Christ himself taking no such title vpon him nor giuing it to Peter or any other of his disciples And that is it which I meant to defend in him and no other soueraintie Humbly desiring pardon of her Maiestie my gratious soueraine Lady for my plaine dealing in that which so Christ helpe me I take to be Gods cause and the Churches only As I do also most willingly submit my selfe to the curteous correction of all men who through greater skill and perfitter iudgement see more then I doe in the depth of these matters whereof I haue conferred Farewell gentle Reader and now that I haue shewed thee my dealing herein let me obtaine this little request at thy handes that thou be not too hasty in giuing thy iudgemeÌ„t before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and vprightly From the Tower the seuenth of Iuly Iohn Rainoldes to the Students of the English Seminaries at Rome and Rhemes BRethren my harts desire prayer vnto God for Israel is that they may bee saued For that which S. Paule wrote to the Romans touching the Israelites his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh as being of one nation with him that must I protest to you brethren your selues my kinsemen according to the flesh in like sort and countriemen of England Of whom I haue the greater compassion and pitie because I am perswaded that you sinne of ignorance rather then of wilfulnesse and haue a deuotion to serue God aright though not the right way wherein he will be serued That I may iustly say the same vnto you which S. Paule of theÌ„ For I beare you record that you haue the zeale of God but not according to knowledge The zeale which the Israelites had was of the law The knowledge which they waÌ„ted was the true meaning of it For they expounded it after the traditions and doctrines of their Fathers and knowing not Christ to be the ende thereof they sought their owne righteousnesse against the righteousnesse of God The zeale which you haue is of the Gospel The knowledge which you want is the true meaning of it too For you are instructed to vnderstand it after the maner of your Fathers Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand that the Pope is supreme head of the Church the trade of Popish Priesthoode the way to saue soules the sacrifice of Popish Masse the souerain sacrifice in a word that Papistrie is the Catholike faith and the faith and seruice of the Church of England is cursed and damnable specially the oth of the Queenes supremacie And your mindes are taken so with these opinions that you are content to venture as farre in the defense of them as the Donatists did who loued their errours better then their liues Great zeale but not according to knowledge my brethren For the Gospell teacheth not that which you imagin your Fathers were abused by Phariseis Rabbines your Pope hath vsâ—rped ouer all Christian states your Priesthoode is impious your Masse abominatioÌ„ your Popish faith heresie our doctrine of the Queenes supremacie oth thereto our ministerie of the word of sacraments of prayers agreeth with the Gospell and therefore is holy Which thinges sith this Conference that one of your Seminarie-Priests and I haue had doth open proue peruse it â— beseech you with equitie and iudgement and studie to ioine knowledge to your zeale that you may be saued Perhaps your Superiors the guides who seduce you will not giue you leaue to reade it and peruse it But there are two reasoÌ„s which should moue them to coÌ„descend thereto the one of the worke the other of the autours The worke is a conference
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
dastardes which you set against them My former wordes of the Apostles as being equall in power agrée well with these of Peter and Paule For I say not that Paule was aboue Peter but that he might haue bene aboue him in power for all the honour which he gaue him And this is sufficient to ouerthrowe your reason But if my example of the Pope and Emperour did cause you to mistake me you may take an other and fitter for the purpose the Colledge Apostolike as the Pope dooth call them I meane the Cardinalles of Rome Who though they be in states orders and liuings one aboue an other yet in all things and with all curtesies they all giue hie reuerence one vnto an other And when any of them doth come into the chappell of the Popes holinesse to say his deuotions he turneth towardes the Cardinalles of his owne order and goeth not directly to his own place vnlesse he be the lowest but beginning at the lowest as though he wold abide there he is desired entreated of euery one to go higher vntil hee come directly to his own place vnlesse he be the lowest himselfe demurely once again desireth him who is next vnto him that he will go before him at leÌ„gth he sitteth down in his place This is a foule trouble to make so much adoo at the comming in of euerie Cardinall to prayers chiefly when prayers are begun Yet to shew how modestly they thinke of themselues and how they honour one an other euery one that commeth after others dooth it whither the Pope be there or no. Out of doubt Cardinalles men of such wisedome would not commit this folly if euery one whom they honour must be aboue them in power But you deale iniuriously with me to say that you framed your reason out of the scriptures and Fathers and I bring the booke of Ceremonies to kill it For neither did you ground vpon the wordes of scripture but onely on a circumstance obserued by the Fathers that Paule went to Peter of reuerence to honour him and I slew the reason which you made thereof with the sword of scriptures I vsed the booke of Ceremonies but as an Irish Lackey to cut off a dead mans head I would not haue vouchsafed as much as to name him but to cast the doong of your solemnities in your faces and to shewe the fondnesse of a Popish reason by practise of a Papall mockery Though I sée not why you should preferre so the scriptures and Fathers before the booke of Ceremonies For the booke of Ceremonies speaketh more good of the Pope in one leafe then both the other doo throughout all their volumes And it is solemnely printed at Rome with Peters picture in the front and the keies in his handes and Feede my sheepe written about him as a booke of great account where many of the Fathers doo lye in the dust of the Vatican Library and cannot come into the light Notwithstanding if you be willing to yéeld your selfe prisoner to the Fathers as Gentlemen thinke the booke of Ceremonies to be a raskall souldiour whom you disdaine to yéeld vnto behold your owne witnesses who make not Paule inferiour to Peter otherwise then in the time of his Apostleship the one made first the other last S. Ierome who putteth an equalitie betweene them though Paule did honour him as an Apostle before him S. Chrysostome who pronounceth that Paule to say no more of him was Peters peere in dignitie S. Ambrose who giueth a primacy to them both and saith that Paule was euen such an other as Peter S. Austin who declareth their authoritie to haue beene equall and that for Paules honor what he wanteth in time is supplied by Christes glory in that he made him an Apostle not as the rest vpon the earth but when he raigned now in maiestie And these things are written by the same Fathers whose wordes touching the honour that Paule gaue to Peter your Doctor setteth in a beadrole as though in their iudgement Paule acknowledged Peter his supreme head thereby Wherein you may perceiue both his deceitfull dealing that alleageth their wordes as setting one aboue the other who in expresse words doo make one equall to the other and your expositions how iumpe they méete with the Fathers who gathered an equalitie of Peter and Paul by the epistle to the Galatians whence you conclude Peters supremacy ouer Paule Hart. How the Fathers all agrée with one consent of Peters supremacy it shall be shewed hereafter As for the circumstance which I obserued out of them touching the fact of Paule yâ— when he went to see Peter he went of reuerence to honour him I doo not account so greatly thereof as of the fact it selfe nor vrge I the Fathers so much obseruing that as the report of this made by the Scriptures For they set it forth with so liuely wordes as if it were of purpose to paint out Peters primacie Then after thre yeares I went to Ierusalem saith Paule to see Peter and taried with him fifteene daies Marke his words I pray and sée what weight they cary with them He went to Ierusalem so farre so long a iourney and he went notwithstanding his great affaires ecclesiastical and he went to see Peter not in the vulgar maner but as S. Chrysostom noteth that the Gréeke word importeth to behold him as men behold a thing or person of name excellencie and maiestie Neither did he go onely to see him but he abode with him also to fill him selfe with a perfit viewe of his behauiour And he abode with him no common time but fifteen daies fiftene daies a great matter and more then many would thinke who doo not search the depth of scriptures In such estimation was Peter with Paule and will you yet deny his primacy Rainoldes King Agesilaus when one praysed an Orator that he could amplifie thinges and make them of small to séeme great I saith hée would neuer count him a good shoomaker who would put a great shoo vpon a small foote You play the Orator M. Hart with your amplifications and that in such sort as you passe the shoomaker of Agesilaus For you do not only put a great shoo vpon a small foote but you stretch the leather with your â—éeth too And yet when you haue wéeried your selfe with stretching it you will haue stretched it in vaine For though your shoo be too great for the primacy of Peter yet will it be too small for the supremacy of the Pope Hart. We speake not of the Pope now but of Peter Why stray you from the point Rainoldes I thought they had béene things both of one nature and differing in name only But I will speake of Peter And that you may sée that the shoo which you made is too great for his foote I will shew it by a plaine demonstration to the
the Spirit of truth and whether any of them were who can say We haue no assurance then of mysticall senses which may be mens fansies Onely the literall sense which is meant vndoubtedly by the holy Ghost is of force to proue the assured truth and therefore doth binde in matters of beliefe And this is so cléere that your owne Doctors acknowledge it and teach it euen he whom you alleaged For he saith It is agreed betweene you and vs that forcible aguments ought to be drawne onely from the literall sense and that is surely knowne to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost As for mystical senses it is not alwaies sure whether the holy Ghost meant them vnlesse they be expounded in the scriptures as that in Iohn you shall not breake a bone of him Which excepted it is a folly to go about to proue the pointes of faith forcibly by mysticall senses Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures that the wordes of Christ touching one Pastor are meant as of him selfe by the literall sense so by the mystical of the Pope you sée that Father Robert saith it is a folly to go about to proue the Popes supremacie by them if you will proue it forcibly Now what I say of one Pastour the same I say of high Priest By whom the law of Moses doth signify the hye priest literally the epistle to the Hebrewes doth shew that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense eyther literall or mysticall I finde not in the scriptures Hart. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must stil haue a hye Priest amongst thē on earth to be their chief iudge Rainoldes Were finde you that Hart. In the seuentéenth chapter of the booke of Deuteronomie euen in these wordes If there rise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates then shalt thou arise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall choose and thou shalt come to the Leuiticall priestes and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall shewe thee from that place that the Lord shall choose and thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall enforme thee According to the law which they shall teach thee and according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee shalt thou doo Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall shew thee neither to the right hand nor to the left And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest who serueth then the Lord thy God by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye and thou shalt take away euil out of Israell Here the hye Priest is made the chiefe iudge to heare and determine hard and doubtfull causes amongst the people of God And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and iudge but the Pope onely Rainoldes Now the first chapter of the booke of Genesis would serue you as well to proue the Popes supremacie if it were considered For it is written there In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth Hart. What meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay aske that of him who doth expound it so saying that whosoeuer resisteth his supremacy resisteth Gods ordinance vnlesse he faine as Manichee did that there are two beginninges which is false hereticall because as Moses witnesseth not in the beginninges but in the beginning God created heauen and earth See in the beginning not in the beginninges and therefore not many are hye Priestes of the Church but the Pope onely Hart. The place which I alleaged doth plainely speake of the high Priest and so it doth serue my purpose more fitly then this which doth not touch him Howbeit as learned men when they haue proued a point by stronger arguments are wont to set it foorth with floorishes of lighter reasons rather to polishe it as it were then to worke it and frame it so the Pope hauing brought better euidence for proofe of his supremacie doth trimme it vp with this of Genesis as you would say by an allusion Rainoldes An illusion you should say But the places both as well this of Genesis as that of Deuteronomie are taken in a mysticall sense of your owne so that to winne a matter which must be wunne by sound proofe they are both of like force because that neyther is of any For the literall sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concerne the Iewes to whom the Lorde spake it by his seruant Moses Now how dangerous it is to buyld as vpon scripture thinges which are not grounded vpon the literal sense thereof we may learne by the mysticall sense of that place which a Pope giueth and no common Pope but Innocentius the third the Father of the Lateran-councel in which your popish Shrift and Transsubstantiation were enacted first He in a decretal which is enrolled in the canon law as a rule of the gouernemēt of the Church for euer doth bring foorth that same place of Deuteronomie to proue that the Pope may exercise tēporal iurisdiction not onely in his owne dominion but in other countries too on certaine causes And because Deuteronomi◠is the second lawe by interpretation it is proued saith he by the force of the worde that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the newe Testament Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus that the place which the Lord hath chosen is Rome the Leuiticall Priestes are his brethren the Cardinals the iudge is himselfe the vicar of Christ the iudgements are of three sortes the firs◠betweene blood and blood is meant of criminall ciuil causes the last betweene plague and plague of ecclesiastical and criminall the midle betweene cause cause pertaineth vnto both ecclesiasticall ciuill In the which when any thing shal be hard or doubtfull recourse must be had to the iudgement of the See Apostolike that is of Rome whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey he is adiudged to dye that is to be cut off as a dead man from the communion of the faithfull by excommunication Lo this is a mysticall sense of that place which you alleaged out of Deuteronomie It runneth verie roundly with the Popes supremacie But Christian States I hope will hold the literall sense against it For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius as catholike the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians both in ecclesiasticall causes and ciuill The mysterie of iniquitie did worke verie fast when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built vpon such mystical senses Hart. I
reason by philosophie That Peter was appointed by Christ to be that one it hath some shew of scripture But that the Pope succéedeth Peter therein it hath no shew of scripture and I trow you will not proue it by philosophie Hart. That the Pope succéedeth Peter therein it is a cléere case For Eusebius writeth that Peter hauing laide the foundation of the Church of Antioche where he sate seauen yeares went to Rome preaching the gospell there fiue and twentie yeares continued Bishop of that citie Now the Pope is Bishop of Rome that you graunt Then I conclude thereof that he succedeth Peter For Peter continued Bishop of that citie as it is witnessed by Eusebius Rainoldes I desired that I might heare Thus saith the Lord and you told me that I should heare it In the first parte of your argument you fell from it to Thus saith the Pope In the next you mended it with Thus say Philosophers Now you proue the last by Thus saith Eusebius And this is more sightly somewhat then the former but no stay of faith without the word of God Hart. You ought not to cast off Eusebius so lightly as though he were of no credit For he is the best and auncientest historian of all that haue traueled in setting forth the stories of the Church of Christ. And the paines the diligence the reading and iudgement which in his Chronicle he shewed was great and wonderfull In so much that Canus is perswaded of him that no ecclesiastical Gréeke or Latin autor could haue left more excellent monuments of times Rainoldes I like of Eusebius as of a good historian and I allow the prayse giuen him by Canus But Canus hath a good conclusion withall touching both him and al historians to wéet that beside the writers of the scripture no historian can be sure that is to say able to make sure and certaine proofe in Diuinitie A thing so apparant and euident of it selfe that hée saith it is not to be confirmed with his proofes Onely he reherseth to the same effect a true pleasant spéeche of Flauius Vopiscus who beginning to write stories said that he enterprised it the more boldly because he should haue companions in lying sith he knew no historian that had not lyed in somewhat Now if this be incident vnto all historians except them of scripture who wrote by the Spirit of God and not of man then Eusebius also though a good historian might be subiect to it Which you must the rather be perswaded of him because Pope Gelasius in a Councell of seuentie Bishops reproued his storie as faultie Which reproofe your Canus alloweth as iust giueth reasons of it namely for his reporting of Christes epistle to Agbarus and his auouching many things by Clemens Alexandrinus wheras the fable of the one and the works of the other are reproued by the Councell Hart. These faultes and the rest that Canus doth touch are in the historie of Eusebius which yet not onely Canus but the Councell also commende as not to be refused altogither But that which I alleaged is in the Chronicle of Eusebius a booke neither noted so by the Councell and greatly praysed by Canus Rainoldes The man is one who wrote them both and might be ouerséene as in the one so in the other Yea Canus himselfe who praiseth his Chronicle yet praiseth it with this exception that neither all thinges which Eusebius there reporteth are true But men may find some thinges which may bee worthily and truely blamed As for example that he writeth that Sennacherib who besieged Ierusalem and Salmanassar who tooke Samaria were one and the same man Which thing to be contrarie to the holy scripture S. Ierom hath shewed Now this which I sticke at in the Chronicle of Eusebius is such an other ouersight and may be as worthily reproued as that of Canus because it is no lesse against the scripture then that For whereas he saith that Peter hauing laid the foundation of the Church of Antioche where he sate seuē yeares went to Rome preaching the Gospell there fiue and twentie yeares cōtinued Bishop of that city Peter by this account should haue gone to Antioche about the fourth yeare after Christs death and there abode seuen yeares euē till the second yeare of Claudius the Emperour in which he went to Rome But the scripture sheweth that Paule who was not presently conuerted after Christes death yet after three yeares found Peter at Ierusalē Peter after that abode within the coastes of Iewrie first at Lydda then at Ioppe then at Caesarea then at Ierusalem where Herode cast him into prison in the second or third yeare of Claudius as it is likely for he died in the fourth when the Church of Antioche was in the meane season both planted and watered by others not by Peter Wherefore the former braunch of that which Eusebius reporteth touching Peter that he had sate seuen yeares at Antioche in the second yeare of Claudius is flatly contrarie to the scripture The later is as contrary that from that yeare forward he did sit at Rome fiue and twentie yeares that is all his life time till he was put to death by Nero. For to graunt the vttermost which may haue any shew of reason admitt that he was cast by Herode into prison in the first yeare of Claudius before which he could not for Claudius gaue the kingdome of Iewry to Herode When the Angell had deliuered him out of prison he went into an other place whether to Rome or to Antioche or perhaps to neither the scripture leaueth it vncertaine but by the Chronicle of Eusebius either to Antioche or to Rome If he went to Antioche and there abode some yeares before he came to Rome then is the second yeare of Claudius past and his abode at Rome could not bee fiue and twentie yeares Now it is certaine that he went to Antioche at that time or some other For the scripture witnesseth that Paule did there reproue him But if that were some other time and from his prison in Ierusalem he went straight to Rome yet neither could he so be fiue and twentie yeares there For after hée came thither a time must be found wherein he was at Antioch and an other time wherin he was at Babylon an other time wherin he was at Ierusalem at the Councell of the Apostles and some yeares after that when Paule wrote to the Romans amongst the chiefe whom he saluted he named not Peter and some yeares after that when Paule came prisoner to Rome when he abode there certaine yeares when he wrote many epistles thence Peter is not mentioned nay those thinges are mentioned which would be staines of his Apostleship if he had béene at Rome For Paule saith of others these onely are
or take infection at least from the fountaine being corrupted Now the fountaine as it were whence the rest haue drawne it is the sixth Councell And he saith that there the name of Honorius was thrust in amongst the names of other heretikes by malitious men of spite against the Pope Whereof hee bringeth two proofes One that Anastasius witnesseth it to haue bene so out of Theophanes An other that the Gréekes aduentured sometimes to corrupt bookes as the same Councell declareth by their practises Rainoldes The Councell declareth that there were some copies of a former Councell that had bene corrupted by heretikes among the Greekes But as euill dealing doth still leaue steppes behind it whereby it may be traced out their corruption was discouered both by circumstances of the thing and by the maner of writing and by conference with other copies Now in these places of the sixth Councell in which Honorius is touched you can shew no token of any such suspicion Nay the tokens all are cleere to the contrarie euen that which you alleage of the Greekes conuicted to haue corrupted bookes For if they had corrupted so much of the Councell in so many places it is very likely that they would haue also corrupted those places wherein they are noted and discredited for such corruptions Neither doth Anastasius report out of Theophanes that the Greekes did so Perhaps Father Robert did dreame out of Onuphrius that hee had said so But although Onuphrius say more in that point then truth did afford yet he saith not that As for Anastasius he is so farre from saying it that he gainesayeth it rather For in his storie of the Popes liues he setteth Honorius downe amongst the heretikes who were condemned by the sixth Councell The same is confirmed in an olde copie of the seuenth Councell which he translated out of Greeke and left it in the Popes librarie And at the eight Councell he was him selfe present and put it into Latin most diligently and faithfully there a Pope doth witnesse it To be short Torrensis addeth moreouer touching Anastasius that if he had suspected the Greekes to haue corrupted any of the places concerning this matter hee would haue giuen warning no doubt of it also as he hath done of other Wherfore though ill disposed men amongst the Greekes corrupted bookes sometimes yet the consent of copies chiefely of the Latin writen shortly after the time of the Councell laid vp at Rome the coherence of things the agreement of autours and circumstances of the storie doo make it very vnlikely that they dealt so with the sixth Councell in the matter of Honorius It were pitie that all euidences of men should be distrusted because there are some euidences falsified by euill men But Father Robert dealeth as Alexander the great who when he could not vndoo the knot of Gordius did cutte it a sunder with his sword Hart. Your knot of Honorius I wisse is not so hard but that he might vndoo it without this sword and he doth so For he sheweth that the epistles of Honorius to Sergius on which the sixth Councell adiudged him an heretike are both wisely writen and sound without errour Wherefore though we shoulde graunt that hee had sentence giuen against him by the Councell it foloweth not thereof that he was an heretike They might condemne him vniustly Rainoldes Take heede You were better let the knot alone then vndoo it so This medicine will do more harme then the disease In deede a great Cardinall on whom you relie much would play fast and loose with it in such sort vpon the spéech of Pope Adrian who saith that Honorius was cursed by the Bishops of the East after his death because he was accucused of heresie For hereupon he gathereth that Honorius was not an heretike while he liued nor cursed by the Pope or Bishops of the west But it foloweth straight in the spéech of Adrian which the Cardinall cut off that vnlesse the Pope had consented to it the Bishops of the east would not haue condemned him Moreouer the actes of the Councâ—ll shewe how Bishops of the west were also present and subscribed So that the sentence giuen against Honorius was giuen by the Councell and by the Pope him selfe not by the easterne Bishops only Wherfore if the epistles of Honorius were sound on which as vnsound he was condemned of heresie then a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope did erre in condemning him And if you graunt this as you must by consequent you betraye the strongest castell of Poperie to saue a captaines honour For men of iudgement will thinke that the doctrine of the reformed Churches may be sound for which as vnsound the Councell of Trent confirmed by the Pope hath condemned vs. They might condemne vs vniustly Hart. Not so For they examined and knew very perfitly the doctrine of the reformed Churches as you call them Rainoldes What And did the other condemne and curse the doctrine of Honorius a Pope and did they not examine and know it very perfitly Hart. If this do not stand with the Councels credit Father Robert maketh an other answere yet which may be liked better Namely that the epistles were perhaps counterfeited not writen by Honorius but by some heretike in his name And so might the Councell condemne the doctrine iustly but erre in the person Rainoldes Yet were this also a blemish of the Councell to condemne a Pope in steede of an heretike But they haue not deserued to be touched with it For the former epistle vpon the proofe whereof they did proceed to sentence they saw it conferred with the autheÌ„tical Latin copie found it to agrée Beside that the autor whom your selues alleage to cléere Honorius confessed it to be Honorius his owne and he confessed it then when the secretarie of Honorius who wrote it with his owne hand was aliue of good account and bare witnesse of it The later was approued to the Councel as the former though they stoode lesse about it as néeding lesse inquiry when he was now alreadie cast But it hath all presumptions for it so probable that not as much as Pighius could suspect it though he suspected the other Neither do I thinke that father Robert thought them in déede to be counterfeited But as a man that is in daunger of drowning doth snatch at euery bulrush to saue his life if it may be so he seing the Pope made subiect to heresie by the sixth generall Councell doth catch at euerie fansie whereby he hath some hope to helpe him The fansie of Pighius is that the Councell did not condemne Honorius the copies of it are corrupted Andradius checketh that and saith he was condemned but the Councell erred in condemning him as iudging him to erre who did not Torrensis varieth from them both and cometh in with a finer quirke to wéete that Pope Honorius did consent
the Emperours this witnesse and layeth the blame of those monsters vpon the Romanes themselues The noble men saith he of Rome to aduaunce their owne priuate power corrupted them to whom the Popes election belonged and thereby filled the Church almost two hundred yeares togither with grieuous seditions and shamefull euils and disorders These were the Marques Albert and Alberike his sonne a Consull the Earles of Thusculum they who were of their kinne or by their meanes had grown to wealth Who either bribing the people and clergie with money or spoiling them of the auncient libertie of the election by whatsoeuer other meanes preferred at their lust their kinsmen or frendes men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holines and good order For the repressing of whose outrage Pope Leo the eighth reuiued the law which had beene made by Adrian the first and repealed by the third that no Pope elected should vndertake the Popedome without the Emperours consent Which law being taken away by occasion that the roome was sought ambitiously in the citie and purchased by bribes the state of the Church was put againe in great daunger through the priuate lusts of the same factions To prouide therefore a remedie for these things Henrie the Emperour came into Italie as hereupon Sigonius sheweth And so you may sée the lewdnes of Genebrard that shamelesse parasite of the Popes who without all reuerence both of God and man doth raile lye and falsifie stories to deface the Emperours and crosse the writers of the Centuries For he saith that the Emperours did as wilde boares eate vp the vineyard of the Lord the stories say that they deliuered it from wilde boares The stories say that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romanes them selues he saith that they came in by intrusion of the Emperours The stories say that the Emperours who hunted out those beastes were vertuous and lawfull Princes he calleth them tyrants nor onely them but also many good Emperours moe who medled with the Popes election Finally the stories say that the Emperours were allowed by Popes and Councels to doo it he saith that they vsurped it by the right of Herode And yet him selfe recordeth and that in the same Chronicle too that Pope Adrian with a Councell Pope Leo with a Councell Pope Clemens with a Councell did graunt it vnto Charles Otho and Henrie the Emperours I haue read of an enuious man who was content to lose one of his owne eies that an other might lose both Genebrard is gone farther For he is content to put out both his owne eies that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs That they may acknowledge them selues to haue praysed the German Emperours vniustly hee graunteth both that Popes with Councels haue erred and that their succession wa◠broken off a great while Wherein if you say the same with him M. Hart I am glad of it But your felowes I feare me will not allow that you say if you allow that he saith Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off nor that the Popes may erre and Councels For as Genebrard taketh it Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes Rainoldes But Adrian the first was as Genebrard taketh it and that one of the best Popes Yet he did graunt as much to Charles the Emperour as Leo did to Otho as Clemens did to Henrie And if it be true that they were not Popes whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose then the Popes succession which is almost the onely eye of your Cyclops will be cleane put out by the deuise of this No-body And how shall the writings of our Countriemen Sanders Bristow and Rishton and such others do then who make the Popes succession the chiefest bulwarke of your Church a certaine marke that neuer faileth And what will No-body him selfe say to the third booke of his Chronicle where he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world Was this true when he wrote the third booke and was it false when he wrote the fourth Hart. D. Genebrard whom you shal proue to be some-body ere you haue done though you be flouting him with No-body doth shew by the one place his meaning in the other For sith he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world it is plaine he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely and simply Wherefore in that he addeth about the fiftie Popes that the lawful succession was disordered then he meant that it was broken but in some sort as it were or to say the truth rather brused then broken not interrupted but disturbed For neither Genebrard saith nor any Catholike writer els but that the succession of Popes hath continued and shall vnto the end Rainoldes Then I mistooke his meaning touching the succession and yours touching the Popes For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes who were theeues and robbers Now I perceiue you meant not absolutely and simply that they were not Popes but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort they were crackt Popes as you would say and not sound or perhaps in truth rather crased then crackt Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes doth stand in force against them still For it is true as you said that they did not succeede lawfully Wherefore either lawfull succession is not necessarie vnto your succession or the crased Popes were no Popes at al. They did succéede Simon but Simon the sorcerer and not Simon Peter Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successours for your successions sake Else you spoile your Church of her gayest ornament through which the vnskilfull are most enamored of her Beside that neither would it helpe your cause a whit in tryall of the issue For sithence the Pope hath ouermaistred the Emperours and thrust from his election first them then the people afterward the clergie brought it to a few Cardinals there haue bene as monstrous Popes as were before still I except Iohn and haue come in as vnlawfully Hart. There were many tumultes and schismes in the Church chiefely through the Emperours meanes before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripenes which it is now at But things began to mend from that time of disorder For by the vertue of Leo the ninth and the Popes folowing that vsurpation was taken from the Emperor Henrie the fourth although with great sturres And so was the Sée Apostolike of Rome restored to her auncient brightnes and beauty Whereof our owne daies haue séene the proofe and triall in many good Popes elected lawfully no doubt Pius the fourth Pius the fifth and him who raigneth now Gregorie the
and theirs hee would take their sonnes and appoint them to waite vpon him to bee his horsmen footemen captaines to eare his land to reape his haruest to make him instruments of warre instruments to serue his charets he would take their daughters to dresse him sweete ointments and be his cookes and bakers hee would take their fieldes and vineyardes and oliue trees the best giue them to his seruants yea the tenth of their seede and of their vineyardes giue it to his courtiers and to his seruants he would take their men their maydes their youth their cattel put them to his worke he would take the tenth of their flockes and to conclude they should be his seruants euen so when the Pope had gotten the kingdome that is the supremacie ouer the Israelites of God that is Christians he tooke their sonnes daughters nay their fathers and mothers who should beget them in the gospell and féede them with the milke of life and appointed them to serue him to be his Chauncellors Treasurers Secretaries Maisters of requestes Clerkes of the Escheker Legates in peace to goe on embassages in warre to looke vnto his armies he tooke their bishoprickes and benefices and prebendes the best and gaue them to his seruants yea the first fruites and tithes of their liuings and gaue them to his Courtiers and to his seruants he tooke their pastours their doctours their elders their deacons and put them to his worke hee tooke the tithe of their Churches nay their whole Churches and to conclude both they and theirs were made to serue him If you M. Hart who haue béene at Rome and séene the Popes person haue not yet perceiued this policie of the Pope your want of experience or rather your education in a Popish Seminarie where other kinde of bookes are giuen you to reade then as bewray such mysteries may beare the fault of it But there are two Italians of your owne profession Franciscus Sansouinus and Onuphrius the Frier of whom the one hath writen a treatise of the gouernment of the Court of Rome the other sundry bookes of the Popes and Cardinals By them you may learne it For Onuphrius sheweth that there are three sortes of the Church-officers which are named Cardinals the first Bishops the second Priestes and the last Deacons Priestes and Deacons of the parishes that are within Rome Bishops of the cities that lie néere about it When Rome had receiued the Christian faith and the Church encreased there from day to day the faithfull were diuided into sundry parishes for their better gouernment and had Elders and Deacons ordeined to attend them Elders or as you terme them Priestes and I will cal them so because I speake of Cardinals knowne by that title were they to whom the charge of ministring the word and sacracraments Deacons to whom the care for the poore of the church and their prouision was committed Now at first the parishes had each but one Priest while they being small one pastor could discharge the duetie But after when the number of the faithfull grewe each of them had more And hence did the name of Cardinals arise that he who was chiefe amongst the Priestes of one parish was called the Cardinall Priest that is to say principall In like sort when the seuerall wardes of the citie could not be serued by seuerall Deacons but each of them had moe the chiefe amongst the Deacons of the same ward was called the Cardinall Deacon The name being worshipfull amongst Priestes and Deacons of the citie of Rome spread to the Bishops that dwelt néere about and they were called Cardinall Bishops though it were long first For amongst the auncients it was neuer heard of neither might with reason fith they being equall in power to other Bishops cannot be called Cardinall in respect of them Yet in time by custome I know not how they got it Wherefore of the Cardinals of Rome six are Bishops the Bishop of Alba Tusculum Praeneste Sabine Portuese and Ostia the rest whose number in olde time was certaine according to the number of parishes and wardes now they are more or fewer as the Pope will they were three score and three when this was writen by Onuphrius but all the rest are Priestes or Deacons And for almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ although the Pope employed them much in his affaires yet ordinarily they liued on their charge and kept their calling and degree The honour power of Cardinall Bishops was as the Bishops of other cities The Cardinal Priests and Deacons were neither Bishops themselues nor equall vnto them in dignitie And if a Cardinall Priest were chosen as worthy of a greater charge to be a Bishop els where he left his place in Rome and ceased to be Cardinall because it is ordered by the auncient rules of ecclesiasticall discipline that one man may haue but one ecclesiasticall charge and therefore no man might be a Cardinall Priest of Rome and Bishop of an other Church But after that the Pope had trodde the Emperour vnder féete lifted vp his own throne aboue the highest thrones on earth he lifted vp withall the maiestâ—ie of the Cardinals as of his Noble men and Counsellours and vsed them as principall pillars of his state He gaue to them alone the right of choosing the Pope the people Prince and clergie being robbed of it He decked them with honour of wearing redd hattes and going first before Bishops afterward before Arch-bishops and at the last before Patriarkes He chose the greatest Prelates of sundry dioceses and prouinces as of Yorke for example and Canterburie in England Rhemes and Roan in France Toledo in Spaine Lisbon in Portugall Milan Rauenna Venice in Italie in Germanie Coolcin Trier and Mens in Boheme Praga Cracouia in Poleland Strigonium in Hungarie and so forth the chiefest Bishops of all Christendome to be his Cardinall Priestes and Deacons Yea they were glad to be so because the Cardinalship was a degree vnto the Popedome Neither did he accustome them to giue ouer their Bishoply charge that others placed in their roomes might supplie that duetie and they might attend their charge of Cardinall Priestship and Deaconship in Rome but for the better maintenance of their owne porte and strengthning of the Popedome he suffered them to keépe the liuings of their Bishoprickes and Cardinalships both Wherein least he might séeme to breake that rule of discipline one man to haue but one charge he tooke order that they should not be called Bishops though they had Bishoprickes How then Forsooth a Bishop if he were made Cardinall Deacon must be called elect Bishop if he were made Cardinall Priest must be called perpetuall administrator of his Bishopricke As namely Thomas Wolsey Archbishop of Yorke when he was made Cardinall parish-priest of Rome he must be called not Archbishop but Cardinall Woolsey Priest
lesser donation of Constantine which giueth Rome onely the other the greater which giueth Italie also with the countries of the west And whether of them is it that Genebrard defendeth Hart. Whether of them say you Or what skilleth that Rainoldes It skylleth very much For the lesser seemeth somewhat to discredit the report of the greater as it is obserued by one of the best witnesses that Genebrard hath I meane Nauclerus Who hauing shewed that Constantine left Italie and other kingdomes of the west to his sonnes by testament and therefore it is likely that the decree which saith he gaue them to the Pope is chaffe as the lawiers call it and proueth nothing whereto saith he the decretall maketh not a little which treating of Constantines donation speaketh onely of the donation of the citie of Rome making no mention of Italie and other prouinces But whether this report of the lesser in the decretals discredit the greater in the decrees or no the greater is so brainlesse in the eyes of all men that haue sense and reason that not your historians onely doo nippe it as Otho Frisingensis and Platina and Krantzius but also Dâ—ctors and Diuines as Cardinall Cusanus and Hieronymus Paulus and Laurentius Valla yea Pope Pius himselfe haue writen purposely he would defend the lesser For he saith that Constantine did giue Rome to Syluester Rome that is the citie and not all the westerne Empire of Rome Hart. His wordes indéede doo séeme so and I thinke he meant not to defend the greater Rainoldes Thinke Nay you may be sure that he meant not For in the same place vpon the wordes that you rehearsed I saith he haue alwaies denied this consequence Somewhat is forged and added to the donation of Constantine therfore al is forged For it is certaine that Constantine gaue many thinges to the Church of Rome but more thinges a great deale haue come vnto it other whence either by the giftes of Princes and rich men or by the testament of the godly or by the purchasing of Popes by exchange and so forth and the dispensation and prouidence of God So that in Genebrards iudgement Pope Syluester and his successors haue gotten a great deale more by other meanes then by Constantines donation But they haue not gotten more then the greater donation of Constantine in the decrees doth giue them For it doth giue them all the prouinces places and cities of Italie and other countries of the west In Genebrards iudgement therefore the greater donation of Constantine is forged and that which he defendeth must be the lesser onely Hart. The lesser onely be it What gather you thereoff Rainoldes I gather that Genebrard dealeth like himselfe when he saith that Constantines donation is proued by Photius the Greeke Patriarke and Eugubinus in two bookes For Eugubinus writeth in defense of the greater donation of Constantine auouching that he gaue not the citie of Rome alone vnto the Pope no nor the countrie of Italie but the whole West euen the Westerne Empire in so much that he nameth particularly the kingdomes of England of Fraunce of Spaine of Aragon of Portugall of Denmarke of Norway Swethland Boheme Hungarie Dacia Rustia Croatia Dalmatia Sardinia and Corsica and saith that they are all subiect to the Pope by right of that donation As for the Patriarke Photius he speaketh not a word of any donation That which Genebrard meaneth is in one Balsamon commenting on Photius and it is the same that Eugubinus writeth for What thinke you now of him who saith that Eugubinus and Photius the Greeke Patriarke do manifestly proue that donation to be true which himselfe confesseth to be false and forged Hart. But the next writer whom he alleageth namely Zosimus is fitter for his purpose as speaking of the lesser donation precisely For Constantine saith he departed out of Rome and remoued thence the maiestie of the Empire to Constantinople because he knewe himselfe to be misliked of the Romans for altering of religion Rainoldes What Doth this proue that Constantine gaue the citie of Rome vnto the Pope because he departed from Rome to Constantinople Hart. As Genebrard concludeth of it For he departed to whom Not to the Senate not to the people for that hath no man writen Neither did the Senate or people euer claime it To the Pope therefore who sith that time possesseth and keepeth it as his owne hath olde recordes and euidences and reuenues of it Rainoldes The wit of a Sophister As if a man should say king Henrie departed from the citie of London vnto Windsore castle and remoued the Court thither He departed to whom Not to the Aldermen not to the Citizens for no man saith so Neither did the Aldermen or Citizens euer claime it To the Bishop therefore who sith that time possesseth and kéepeth it as his owne hath old recordes and euidences and reuenues of it Hart. Nay that is a lye that the Bishop of London possesseth the citie as his own sith that time Rainoldes Euen so is the other For the Emperours possessed Rome foure hundred yeares after the time that Constantine departed to Constantinople as your own Sigonius sheweth in his stories Hart. But king Henrie gouerned still the citie of London by the Lord Mayor as Princes haue béene wont to doo Rainoldes So the Emperours gouerned too the citie of Rome by a Lord Deputie Yea Genebrard might easily haue found in his Zosimus the one of those Deputies tooke vpon him to be Emperour If he could shew by Zosimus that a Pope had done so what a proofe were that of Constantines donation Hart. The Popes enioyed not a while the full power yet had they right vnto it Howbeit Ammianus Marcellinus sheweth they had the power too as Genebrard declareth after But first he confirmeth their right out of S. Damasus Rainoldes Out of Damasus How Hart. S. Damasus who saw Constantine hath writen of that donation as euen the Centurie-writers affirme in the seuenth chapter of the fourth Centurie Rainoldes Two lyes with one breath For neither hath Damasus writen of it nor doo the Centurie-writers affirme that he hath Nay they affirme the contrarie For in the very place that Genebrard alleageth they say that neither historians haue made mention of it such as are Eusebius Eutropius Rufinus Socrates Theodoret Euagrius Paulus Diaconus Beda Orosius Zonaras Nicephorus and the like nor they who wrote the liues of Emperours or of Popes as Ierom and Damasus though yet he speaketh somewhat of thinges giuen by Constantine nor other famous Doctors whose monuments are extant as Athanasius Basil Ambrose Optatus Gregorie Nyssen Gregorie Nazianzene Austin and Chrysostome nor the Popes themselues when they were to proue their supremacie in Councels did speake a word of that donation which they would then haue cast forth as shipmen do the sacred ancre in great perill Hart. The wordes
you graunt at least that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre in faith by S. Ieroms iudgement Rainoldes Or at least you take it though neither I doo graunt it nor is it proued by S. Ierom. But this is proued and I grant it that he did not erre in the faith of the Trinitie when Damasus was Bishop of Rome Hart. When Damasus was Bishop Why do you so restraine it S. Ieroms wordes be generall I am ioyned in communion vnto your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke Behold to Peters chaire He speaketh not to Damasus as in respect of Damasus but in respect of the chaire and so of the succession of the Bishops of Rome that what hee saith to one belongeth to them all Rainoldes If you set his wordes vpon such tenters they will neuer hold For him selfe reporteth that the next Bishop of Rome before Damasus Liberius by name subscribed to the Arian heresie Hart. S. Ierom reporteth so but he might be deceiued by some misreporte For he could say nothing more of that matter then what he had by heare-say Rainoldes But seing that hee liued so néere to that time and in the same place and loued the Sée of Rome and yet doth report this matter of Liberius and report it constantly not onely in his booke of Ecclesiasticall writers but in his Chronicle also it is more likely that hee did both know and testifie the truth then Pontacus who maketh your exception against him or any man that liueth now Hart. Why will not you credit a man that liueth now in any thing against S. Ierom Rainoldes Yes if he bring me good reason to disproue him Hart. And Pontacus doth so For he sheweth that Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius do call Liberius a blessed man and that Athanasius doth frée him from the spot of Arianisme Rainoldes Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius do call Liberius a blessed man What Therefore he subscribed not to the Arian heresie Then you may say that Peter did not deny Christ. For Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius doo call Peter a blessed man They are blessed who repent them selues of their sinnes as Peter did of his denyall and so might Liberius doo of his subscription As for Athanasius though hee say that Liberius condemned the heresie of the Arians and therefore suffered banishment yet hee saith withall that hee continued not in suffering banishment to the end but through feare of death subscribed to that heresie with his hand though with his heart he were still against it Thus euen Athanasius who liued at the same time with Liberius and knew his state well acknowledgeth that he subscribed though iudging most friendly both for his owne sake and the causes that he consented not But Damasus Bishop of Rome who succéeded Liberius and might know the matter better then Athanasius doth write that Liberius did consent also to Constantius the Arian Hart. Although this be writen in the booke of Damasus yet it is not likely that Damasus wrote it For Carranza noteth that there are many who dout of that storie And Onuphrius a man verie skilfull of antiquities chiefly of the Roman discrediteth both the report and the autour of it saying that Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie was as hee thinketh the first who beleeued it and thrust it into the booke of Damasus as many other thinges besides Rainoldes What Anastasius did I know not But if he stuffed Damasus with any thing of his owne it was belike in such thinges rather as aduance then empeach the Popes credit Howbeit if Onuphrius in that he denyeth Liberius was an Arian doo meane that he subscribed not to the Arian heresie and that this report came first from Anastasius what answereth hee then to Ierom and Athanasius and Sozomen and Marcellinus in effect too who wrote it all with one consent the youngest of them a hundred yeares before Anastasius was borne As for Carranzas note that there are many who doubt of that storie hee must shew who they be and what groundes of dout they haue Or els those many may be such as himselfe and Onuphrius whose doubting may not preiudice the credit of historians that wrote a thousand yeares before them Chiefly if they haue no surer groundes then Carranza who to disproue the storie alleageth that Liberius wrote one epistle to Athanaâ—ius and the Bishops of Aegypt against the Arians and another to all Bishops exhorting them to constancie Which reasons are so poore that your owne Iouerius a Paris Doctour of Diuinitie rehersing them by occasion hath withall refuted them But sée to what miserable shiftes you are driuen to vphold the pride of the man of Rome Because it were a staine vnto his supremacie if his predecessour Liberius subscribed against the Catholike faith therefore you rather choose to deny it and how First the autoritie of Ierom is alleaged affirming it in his Chronicle Your Pighius doth answere that some hath interlaced those wordes into his Chronicle through ignorance or fraude When this answere séemed hard because Ierom hath other where affirmed it also your Pontacus to helpe it replieth that Ierom could say nought thereof but what he had by heare-say When proofe of this heare-say is made out of Damasus your Onuphrius supposeth him to be corrupted by Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie When Sozomen a Gréeke writer confirmeth Damasus and Ierom Your Christophorson who translateth him doth make him hold his peace or rather witnesse to the contrary For where he saith in his owne tongue that the Emperour compelled Liberius to subscribe he saith by your translâ—tor the Emperour assayed to compel him And where he saith in his owne tongue that certaine Arian Bishops procured him to consent he saith by your translator they endeuored that he should consent When farder Marcellinus is found to agrée with Sozomens report your Genebrard séeing Ierom approued by them both doth raze out that of Pontaâ—us that Ierom could say nought thereof but by heare-say and doth assalt him with the Fathers Wherein besides them whom you alleaged out of Pontacus he citeth Socrates and Theodoret Socrates declaring that Liberius was no Arian in the time of Valens the Emperour as though this were a proofe that hee subscribed not to the Arian heresie in the time of Constantius Theodoret auouching that the west was alwayes free form Arianisme which is lesse to the purpose Theodoret speaking generally as for the most part and in respect of the East by way of comparison For himselfe had shewed before that Auxentius a westerne Bishop was an Arian Now for Athanasius who is the most auncient witnesse of this matter and of such valure that your Andradius could not but yéeld himselfe vnto him yet Genebrard Pontacus thought it good policie to name him as gainesaying
not in whole Which is Baldwins meaning as it appéereth by the place not of Optatus but of Austin whereto he applieth it Rainoldes But if Baldwin meant so Baldwin should haue remembred that a testament so made is not testamentum nuncupatiuum for that is vnwriten as the very rudiments of the law might teach him but imperfectum rather though writen yet vnperfit And I trust you will not say that the testament of Christ is vnperfit Sure Optatus would not Hart. Nor I sir though you would faine imply as though I said so For if Christ would haue his will in part writen in part deliuered by word of mouth ioyne them both togither they make a perfit testament Rainoldes Then the writen testament of Christ is vnperfit It will be gay and perfit with your traditions patched to it But Optatus thought that his writen testament is perfit of it selfe Which shaketh all the frame of Popery in péeces And this is that Optatus of whom S. Austin speaketh as of a worthy Catholike Bishop equall to Ambrose and Cyprian of whom Fulgentius speaketh as of a holy faithfull interpretor of Paule like to Austin and Ambrose of whom your great Champion doth vaunt so gloriously that he nor he onely but the rest of the Fathers are of your religion as surely and fully as the Pope himselfe Pope Gregorie the thirteenth whereas in very truth not one of them is so For Gregorie the thirteenth is of your religioÌ„ in the Popes supremacie the chiefest point of Poperie as his rules of Chancery for reâ—eru ations and prouisions his accursing of all that appeale from Popes to Councels his bulles against decrees of Councels both prouinciall and generall doo shew From which abomination how farre the Fathers were it shall appéere when you alleage them But Optatus is so plaine against your religion in the point of scriptures and their sufficiencie to decide all controuersies that your chalenger if he read him and not beleeued common-place-bookes of Canisius and other broakers might haue blushed to boast of him For those things which he citeth out of Optatus do not as much as rase the skinne of our religion though they séeme to weake eye sightes But this of scriptures onely doth breake the necke of yours and it is so cléerely the iudgement of Optatus that your owne Baldwin in his Annotations is faine to say of him he vsed that comparison of a testament not so warily Hart. Not so warily as Austin doth For Austin vseth it when he will proue out of the scriptures that the Church is catholike which was one of the pointes of their controuersie with the Donatists Rainoldes But in handling that point he maketh it a generall rule that whether it be of Christ or of his church or of any thing else whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life nothing must be preached beside the scriptures that is the testament Hart. But in an other point of their controuersie touching baptisme S. Austin doth alleage not so much the scripture as the tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes Not so much the scripture He doth the scripture then though he alleageth also the custome of the Church deliuered by the Apostles But what is that against the testament Hart. Nay beside the testament which is the word writen he doth commend vnwriten traditions in other places Which proueth that he thought not the testament sufficient to decide all controuersies Rainoldes Now S. Austin findeth fauour at your hands who make him say and vnsay the same But where vnsaith hée that of the sufficiencie of scripture Hart. You may sée in the Augustinian confession of Torrensis in the chapter of Traditions Rainoldes But I would sée it in S. Austin Torrensis is a Iesuit whom we haue taken oft in lyes I cannot trust him Hart. Why He alleageth S. Austins owne wordes As in the first place which bringeth in S. Cyprian too Quod autem nos admonet Cyprianus vt ad fontem recâ—rramus id est Apostolicam traditionem inde canalem in nostra tempora dirigamus optimum est sine dubitatione faciendum That is to say whereas Cyprian warneth vs that we should go to the coondit head which is the tradition of the Apostles and thence direct the pipe to our owne times that is best and to be done out of all dout These are S. Austins owne wordes Rainoldes S. Austins owne wordes in déede But what doth folow in S. Austin Traditum est ergo nobis sicut ipse commemorat ab Apostolis quòd sit vnus deus Christus vnus vna spes fides vna vna ecclesia baptisma vnum That is to say It is deliuered therefore to vs by the Apostles as Cyprian himselfe rehearseth that there is one God and one Christ and one hope and one faith and one church and one baptisme These are S. Austins owne wordes and grounded on S. Cyprian too So that he and Cyprian meant by tradition that which is deliuered and that to be deliuered which is writen in the scriptures For this selfe same thing whereof they speake is writen in the epistle of Paule to the Ephesians Wherefore their traditioÌ„ is tradition writen that is to say scripture and not vnwriten stuffe as your Iesuit would haue it Yea Cyprian is so plaine for controuersies to be decided by this tradition onely that in the same epistle whence Austin citeth this to the words of Stephanus Traditum est it is deliuered vnde est ista traditio faith he whence is this tradition Doth it come from the authoritie of the Lord and the gospell or from the commaundements and epistles of the Apostles For that we must doo those things which are writen God doth witnesse saying to Ioshua Let not this booke of the law depart out of thy mouth but meditate in it day and night that thou maiest obserue to performe all thinges which are writen therein And likewise the Lorde sending his Apostles willed them that the nations should bee baptized and taught to obserue all things which he had commaunded Wherefore if this thing of the which Stephanus saith it is deliuered be commaunded in the gospell or contained in the epistles or actes of the Apostles let this diuine and holy tradition be obserued Sée you not how Cyprian thought that all which Christ commanded to be taught is writen How hee meant this writen doctrine by tradition How his words of this tradition are approued by Austin What conscience had your Iesuit to alleage that for traditions beside scriptures which they so plainely meant of the scriptures them selues Hart. I do not sée this neither in S. Austin nor in S. Cyprian Rainoldes I am the soryer that your sight serueth you no better For the thing is so cléere that your owne Pamelius declareth that Cyprian meant the holy scriptures there by tradition Hart. Yet Pamelius addeth that if
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
is not one worde of your miraculous fable As litle in S. Athanasius beside that the sermon which you alleage as his is in your own edition reiected for a bastard In Damascene there is more yet not so much neither as here your Portesse hath But he is too late too weake a witnes to proue a doubtful matter pretended to be doon almost fiue hundred yeares before him The best or rather all your proofe is S. Denys whom you belye notablie For where saith he that which you doo father on him Hart. Where in an epistle of his to S. Timothee Rainoldes He wrote no such epistle Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse whence this stuffe is borowed For reading there that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee they thought it had béene in an epistle to Timothee The place which they meant is in a booke entitled of the names of God pretended to be writen to Timothee by Denys Hart. In a booke or an epistle it is a great matter why you should charge them with lying Rainoldes I doo not therefore charge them with it Neither would I mention this but to point you the place in which they lye For they say that S. Denys writeth these these things where neither the autour who writeth is S. Denys neither writeth he the thinges which they alleage Touching the thinges first he saith no more thereof but that amongst the Bishops inspired of the holy Ghost Hierotheâ—s excelled all the rest saue the Apostles in praysing Christes goodnesse when him selfe and Timothee and many of their holy brethren came together to behold the body which receyued God and which the Prince of life was in As for the miracle of the Apostles brought together S. Thomas comming the thirde day after the Angels singing hymnes three dayes the buriall of the virgins body the desire of Thomas to see it the sepulcher opened for his sake and the body assumpted into heauen he saith not one worde of these conceites not one word Nay he rather saith against them For he noteth namely that Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefe and ancientest toppe of the Apostles Which it is not likelie he would so note of two Apostles if they had all béene present Much lesse is it likely that he would say nothing of so great a miracle if any such had happened Hart. Perhaps it is writen in some other parte of S. Denys workes Rainoldes In no part at all of anie worke that beareth the name of S. Denys Hart. Not that is extant now But he wrote manie more as Nicephorus sheweth and Damascene maketh mention of this epistle to Timothee Rainoldes Nay that which Damascene mentioneth is the booke I spake of whence all that he citeth is taken word for word Yea Nicephorus also doth alleage the same quoting the very chapter as the onely place wherein the assumption of the blessed virgin is proued by S. Denys The more doo I maruell what should moue your Rhemists to say that S. Denys writeth and witnesseth that all the Apostles were brought miraculously together to honour her diuine departure yea and that he testifieth of his own hearing that both before her death and after for three dayes the Angels did sing most melodious hymnes vnlesse they were disposed to lye for the whetstone But this of the thinges The other of the autour is not so great a faute yet a faute too For they would haue men thinke that he who wrote this worke of the names of God others of the heauenly ecclesiastical hierarchie as he termeth it was the famous Denys the scholer of S. Paul Wheras it was a counterfeit who tooke that Denys name vpon him Hart. It was that famous Denys in déed who wrote those notable and diuine workes and others in which he confirmeth and proueth plainely almost all thinges that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy sacraments and affirmeth that he learned them of the Apostles giuing also testimonie for the Catholike faith in most thinges now controuersed so plainely that your men haue no shift but to deny that Denys to haue béene the autour of them feyning that they be an others of later age Which is an old sleight of heretikes but most proper to you of al others Who séeing al antiquitie against you are forced to be more bold or rather impudent theÌ„ others in that point Rainoldes These flowers of your Seminarie that wee are heretikes bold impudent that all antiquitie is against vs you may spare them for they are stale they haue béene dipt in gall lye You say that he proueth plainely almost al things that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy Sacraments If you meane by the Church not our Church but yours that almost must haue fauor or els without almost you lauish For though he haue more thinges then either the Church of the Apostles had or ours doth allow yet neither all that you haue many that you haue not and some cleane contrarie to yours As namely in the sacrament of the Lords supper wherin you varie from vs most he neither hath your stage-like gestures toyes nor inuocation of Saintes nor adoration of creatures nor sacrificing of Christ to God nor praying for the soules in Purgatorie nor sole receyuing of the Priest nor ministring vnder onâ— kind to them who receiue nor exhortations lessons prayers in a tongue which the people doth not vnderstand So that in thingâ— of substance and not of ceremonie only he differeth as farre from your blasphemous Masse as he is néere to our Communion But the thinges which he hath you say that he affirmeth he learned them of the Apostles He doth so I graunt as it was fit for him who would be counted that Denys which was conuerted by S. Paul But as it happeneth vnto counterfeites he hath forgot himselfe in one place and so betrayed the feate For speaking of infants why they are baptized hereof saith he we say those thinges which our diuine maisters being instructed by the old tradition haue brought vnto vs. By the which words the man at vnawares hath shewed that he learned not not of the Apostles For Christ him selfe instructed the Apostles of baptisme they had it not from old tradition Hart. That is a weake coniecture why he should be a counterfeit For he might call the tradition of the Apostles old tradition though it were but certain yeares or moneths before him Rainoldes Hardly if he liued in the same time with them But if he might yet could he not say that the Apostles were instructed by the old tradition of the Apostles Belike his maisters were younger men Hart. Our coniectures may deceiue vs we must not trust them in such matters The Fathers count him the right Denys For Gregorie Nazianzen Origen
Fathers that hath not beene abused so The Frier whom Stapleton doth commend greatly for diligence and iudgement Sixtus Senensis hath writen a discourse touching the false entitling of bookes whence it cometh and how to finde it out Therein he hath proued that bookes are fathered falsly not onely vpon Austin and Ierom whom I named but also vpon Ambrose Cyprian Athanasius Eusebius Emisenus Iunilius Cyrill Eucherius Arnobius yea Thomas of Aquine too With this discourse he closeth vp the former volume of his holy librarie in which hee hath shewed that Clemens Abdias Origen Chrysostome Hippolytus many mo haue had their names defaced with the same iniury Hart. There are many bookes entitled to the Fathers falsly we confesse I will not bring them in to witnesse against you or if I doo you may refuse them lawfully Rainoldes Then you will not bring in the storie of Abdias to proue that Peter gaue the whole power to Clemens which Christ had giuen him Or if you doo you license me to refuse him as fréely as I refused his coosin Clemens in the same point Neither will you bring Arnobius on the Psalmes to proue that who so goeth out of Peters Church shal perish as doth Stapleton Or if you doo you license me to refuse him as not the man whom Stapleton would haue him taken for Hart. You may refuse Abdias For Pope Paule the fourth reiected him amongst the bookes which he condemned as Sixtus recordeth But Arnobius is an ancient writer indéede more worthy of credit Rainoldes More worthy of credit then Abdias I graunt But he is not that writer most ancient whom Stapleton reporteth him to be For the most ancient Arnobius was elder as Sixtus also noteth then that he might heare of the heresie of Photinus Whereas this Arnobius who writeth on the Psalmes doth mention Photinus and write by name against his heresie Hart. Will you stand then to the iudgement of Sixtus which be the right and naturall graffes of the Fathers and which bee bastard slippes Rainoldes No. For though Sixtus did sée many thinges yet he saw not all and others may sée that which Sixtus ouersaw As for example there are two bookes touching the martyrdom of Peter and Paule bearing the name of Linus the first Bishop of Rome These doth Sixtus iudge to haue indeede béene writen by that ancient Linus as Faber also did before him But Claudius Espencaeus doth maruel that Faber a learned man and witty could be so perswaded sith Peter in that storie is made to withdraw the Roman wiues matrones from their husbands beddes vnder pretense of chastitie Which vnchristian doctrine repugnant to the lawes of godlinesse and honestie nether was it possible that Peter should teach neither is it likely that Linus should belye him with it And thus you sée an autor disallowed by Espencaeus on very sound reason whom Sixtus hath allowed of not so discretely Hart. But if you thus allow and disallow whom you list I may take paines in vaine For when I shall alleage this or that Father speaking most expressely for the Popes supremacie you haue your answere readie that he was ouerséene through error or ouerborne with affection or if he wrote in Gréeke he is mistranslated or if he wrote in Latin he was misse writen or misseprinted or if none of these will serue it is a bastard falsly fathered on him And whether your shifts be sufficient answeres your selfe will be iudge Hart. Nay not so nether For what soeuer I answere I will giue reason of it And whether my reasons bee sufficient proofes I will permit it as I said to the iudgement of the iurie that is of all indifferent men who haue skill to weigh the reasons that are brought and conscience to giue verdict according vnto that they finde Which triall if you like off as you séemed to doo then bring forth your witnesses and let vs heare now the Fathers speake themselues Hart. Content And I will â—irst beginne with the Fathers of the Church of Rome euen the auncient Bishops whom I alleaged before out of D. Stapleton namely Anacletus Alexander the first Pius the first Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Eusebius Melchiades Iulius and Damaâ—us To whom I adde also them whom you mentioned out of Melchior Canus to wéete the two Sixti with Eleutherius and Marcus For though some of them maintain it as by scripture some as by tradition yet all agrée in this that they maintaine the Popes supremacie Rainoldes In déed though their heades be turned one from an other yet their tailes méete together with a firebrand betwixt them as did the foxes of Samson But Samson had three hundred foxes haue you no more but these fewe Hart. Foxes doo you call those holy martyrs and Bishops And will you still vtter such blasphemous spéeches and set your mouth against heauen Rainoldes Against hell M. Hart and not against heauen For I reuerence the holy martyrs whom yoâ— named But foxes I call those beastes who wrote the thinges that Stapleton and Canus quote most lewdly and iniuriously to the martyrs and Bishops whom they are falsly fathered on as I will proue Which that I may doo with lesser trouble all in one I would you brought the rest if you haue any more of them Hart. More Why all the Bishops of Rome from them forward euen till our age haue taught the same doctrine as Canus declareth For it is confirmed by Innocentius the first in his epistles to the Councels of Carthage and Mileuis by Leo in his epistles to Anastasius and the Bishops of the prouince of Vienna by Gelasius in his epistl◠〈◊〉 Anastasius the Emperour and in the decrees which hee made with the seuentie Bishops and in his epistle to the Bishops of Dardania by Vigilius in his decrees the last chapter of them by Pelagius the second to the Bishops that were assembled in the citie of Constantinople by S. Gregorie in his epistle to Austin the Bishop of the Englishmen and by many other Popes whose testimonies are rehersed in the decrees and decretals in the twelfth distinction and seuenteenth and ninetéenth and twentieth and one and twentieth and two and twentieth and the eightieth distinction in the canon beginning with the worde Vrbes and the ninety sixth distinction in the canon Bene and in the foure and twentieth cause the first question throughout many chapters and in the fiue and twentieth cause the first question and in the title of election in the chapter beginning with the word Significasti and the title of priuileges the chapter Amiqua and the title of baptisme the chapter Maiores and the title of election in the sixth booke of decretals the chapter Fundamenta and in the Extrauagants the constitution Vâ—am sanctam which extrauagant constitution was renewe◠〈◊〉 approued by the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth So that you haue
say this or that against a man you must proue it Rainoldes So I minde to doo And that by demonstration out of the saâ—e booke of Genebrard himselfe in which he â—indeth this faute with the Centurie-writers For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye How doth Genebrard recken Hart. In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen as he proueth out of Vasaeus Rainoldes When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnder Agatho kept What saith he of that Hart. In the yeare six hundred foure score and one or two or there about Rainoldes Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell Hart. He was but what of that Rainoldes Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles is a counterfeit and not Isidores For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius and Stephanus in the time of Pope Agatho Constantine the Emperour Which séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore are dissolued all into one counterfeit abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops Hart. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles about seuen hundred yeares since did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores and so he citeth it Rainoldes Why mention you that Are you disposed to proue that some haue béene deceiued and thought him Isidore who was not Hart. No But to proue that the worke is Isidores as Father Turrian doth by the testimonie of Igmarus Rainoldes Ignarus can not proue that He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors For it is too cléere by the Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of and therefore no helpe but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie some groome of the Popes that had an eye to the almes-box conueied this pamphlet in amongst them and well meaning men in France and other countryes receyued it as a worthie worke compiled by S. Isidore and coming from the See Apostolike But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses which is vrged and iustly as a probable coniecture that those epistles were not extant in their dayes the matters that are handled and debated in them the scriptures alleaged the stories recorded the ceremonies mentioned the times and dates assigned are not coniectures probable but most certaine proofes that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome whose names they beare There is a booke entitled to the Poet Ouid touching an olde woman haue you euer séene it Hart. What is that to the purpose Doth he speake of the Popes epistles Rainoldes No but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes It is ancient it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago And he who set it foorth saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie who did publish it A smooth tale to make men beleeue that it is Ouids Of whom though it sauour no more then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke For to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style if I should vrge it you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest To the silence of witnesses that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie But vnto the matters of which the booke intreateth and thinges that it discourseth on no shadow of defense can be made with any reason For it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie that God shall giue her to be our mediatresse and shall assumpt her into heauen and place her in a throne with him yea the autour prayeth to her Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of I trow in Ouids time Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures that he could cite the law of Moses and speake of Iacob and Esau and allude to Salomon in Ecclesiastes Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome although you haue gloses to shift of other reasons yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them For the scriptures are so alleaged and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church about religion about rites about stories ecclesiasticall that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops Hart. Why Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter that they should alleage the scriptures as that Ouid should Rainoldes Nay I doo thinke it or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo then that Ouid should allude to Salomon or cite Moses For the bookes of Moses perhaps of Salomon too were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid and he might haue read them But your common Latin translation of the olde testament made a great part of it by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe whence it is called S. Ieroms could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome For they were deceased before he was borne And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation An euident token that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom yea a great while after him as may bee déemed probably For the common Latin translation which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters Tertullian Cyprian Hilarie Ambrose and other of the same ages shew it in all their writings Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies as soone as Ierom had set forth his
most superexcellent the first the chiefe See and saith that she needeth not to helpe her selfe with these doutfull arguments which are drawn out of those epistles and put in the decrees of Gratian. But if he were not Cardinall when he gaue that iudgement yet Bellarmin was Iesuit when he confirmed it For when he read at Rome of the Popes supremacie and came to that argument of these epistles of the Popes he said that Father Turrian a learned man had defended them to be their owne but he thought the contrarie opinion to be truer Hart. How know you that he saide so when he read at Rome Rainoldes One of your owne friendes and felowes who was present told me he heard him say so And I do the rather beléeue his report because whereas Bellarmin him selfe hath set in writing the summe of those lectures he saith though not altogether so much yet in effect For I will not deny saith he but there are some errours crept into them Hart. But he addeth that certes he thinketh neuerthelesse that they are very ancient Rainoldes And why because Isidore maketh mention of them Which reason that he therefore doth thinke them very ancient because there is mention made of them by Isidore is as much in softer wordes as if he saide he thinketh them ancient howbeit not so ancient as they are pretended It may be that Bellarmin if he were aduertised that Isidore is forged too would thinke them lesse ancient by one degrée then yet he thought But that which the Iesuit was loth to deale with ouer roughly the Lawier a man of better minde and bolder spirit doth plainely auouch For he affirmeth it to be cléere and euident that those epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester are all false and counterfeit Now Siluester was Pope at the time of the Nicen Councell aboue thrée hundred yeares after Christ. And so the exception which I made against your first band of Popes who liued thrée hundred yeares after Christ and vpward you sée it is confirmed by a famous Lawier a man of great iudgement and of your owne religion Hart. What famous Lawier is it Or how doth he confirme it Rainoldes It is Antonius Contius the kinges professor of the law in the vniuersitie of Burges with whose notes allowed and approued by the priuileges of the Spanish French kinges your Canon-law was printed at Anwerpe by Plantin In one of those notes he saith that he hath brought many reasons in his preface by which he hath proued and shewed manifestly that the epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester are all false and counterfeit Behold he hath shewed it not by one or two ghesses but by many reasons and that manifestly Hart. But what are the reasons which he hath shewed it so by Rainoldes Nay I am bound to kéepe counsell in that For the preface wherin he brought those reasons is not printed Though I must cléere Plantin the printer from the faute For I caused a friend of mine to aske of him why it was not printed and what became of it whether a man might sée it or no. To whome he made answere that the Censour appointed to ouersee bookes to be allowed to the print would not suffer it to passe but what became of it hee remembred not nor knew how to procure it They that doo euill hate the light There was somewhat in that preface which the Censour would not that all men should see But the truth saith Tully which is pressed downe by many lewde men doth rise vp often times by this one meanes that either they who are craftie to deceiue are not bold to enterprise so much as they deuise or they who are bold enough to doo any thing haue not wit and subtiltie to conuey their practises Which consideration of a wise Oratour the folly of your Censour hath proued to be true For though he were bold enough to leaue out the preface of Contius yet he had not craft enough to raze out that note which mentioneth the preface And yet a litle after to sée the mischiefe of it how that should scape his handes he hath put in a note vnder Contius his name which would haue helped well if he had razed out the other For vpon a text of Pope Anacletus he hath made him say I know that some affirme those epistles of the Popes who next succceded Peter to be false and counterfeit but I would desire them to bring better proofe specially sith they are found in all the courses of canons that are extant collected by Isidore out of the booke of Damasus which was Bishop of Rome This note was iuggled in well by the Censour with this subscription Contius Pity that he tooke not away the other note where Contius is subscribed too Hart. Why suspect you the Censour that he should make that note and not Contius him selfe write it You haue a lesson in S. Paul that charitie is not suspicious Rainoldes Charitie is not sottish neither I learne that lesson of him too For as it is a vice to suspect vniustly so it is no vertue to beleeue vnwisely And S. Paul who saith that charitie beleeueth all thinges yet beléeued not that they meant him well of whom he vnderstood by his sisters sonne that they would lye in waite to kill him Charitie beleeueth all thinges which a wise and godly man should beléeue But to beleeue that Contius wrote that note him selfe were greater folly to the beleeuer then charitie to the Censour For how could it be that a learned man the kinges professor of the law should say concerning the same epistles first I haue shewed manifestly by many reasons that they are counterfeit and anon I know that some affirme them to be counterfeit but I would desire them to bring better proofe Chiefly sith the cause that is added there why he desireth better proofe is Isidores autoritie whom Contius in that respect doth discredit which note is printed too And afterwarde againe on other textes of those epistles he noteth sundrie pointes whereby it is manifest he saith that they are forged and yet againe on other he mentioneth the proofe thereof made in his preface yea and that is more vpon the same epistle of the same Anacletus on which that counterfeit note was coyned Contius againe noteth this epistle is falsely fathered on Anacletus as I aduertised in my preface Sée you not how rightly Tully did obserue that if either suttletie were bold or boldnesse craftie it would go hard with the truth The truth which is oppugned by those epistles of the Popes should haue had one patrone lesse to speake for her if your Censour had béene as politike to blot out the notes touching the preface as he was hardie to leaue the preface out and coine a new note against it And yet perhaps
manifest testimonie that their praiers are offered in heauen vnto God by anie other person then by Christ Iesus the hye Priest of our profession the Angell of the couenant the onely mediator betweene God and man And this doth séeme to be that Angel that other Angell of whom it is writen in the Reuelation An other Angell came and stoode before the altar hauing a golden censer and there was much odours giuen vnto him that he should put them into the prayers of all the Saintes on the golden altar which is before the throne and the smoke of the odours which were put into the prayers of the Saintes went vp before God out of the Angels hand For although the Angels be ministring spirites sent forth to minister for the Saints on earth who shall inherite saluation and therefore as they serue to certifie them that their prayers are come vp before God so they might rather offer their prayers to God then the Saintes in heauen who haue no such ministery to serue the Saintes on earth yet because this Angell standing with a censer at the altar of incense to burne perfume before God is set forth as dooing that duetie which the hie Priest did figure in the law and our hye Priest is no created Angel but he by whom the Angels were created euen Christ it foloweth that Christ is meant by the Angell To whom this name is giuen oftentimes in scripture because he is an Angel that is to say a messenger sent by God his father to open his will vnto his seruants and worke their saluation by his couenant And it may be that as God the father hauing said of him Behold I send an Angell doth adde my name is in him to shew that he is God so to distinguish him from the created Angels who are often mentioned in the Reuelation S. Iohn doth cal him an other Angell as differing from the rest not onely in number but also in nature autoritie and dignitie For those things which are writen of the Angell who had the seale of the liuing God who casting fier into the earth the Angels blew their trumpets and powred out the plagues of God who comming downe from heauen clothed with a clowde and the rainebow vpon his head and his face was as the sunne his feete as pillers of fier had in his hand a little booke set his right foote on the sea and his left foote on the lande which are namely written of an other Angell an other mightie Angel as he is also called doo if the circumstances of the text be weighed best agrée to Christ. But whether it be so or no it is certaine that Christ is the Angell who putteth odours of most sweete perfume into the prayers of all the Saintes as our hye Priest and offreth them to God his father to whom he maketh alwayes intercession for vs and is not onely for our prayers but for our selues also an odour of a sweete smelling sauour before him Wherefore sith the scripture manifestly sheweth that our Sauiour Christ offreth the prayers of all the Saintes and not that the Saintes in heauen offer the prayers of the Saintes on earth you might haue bene contented to leaue this honour vnto Christ and haue suffred me to go forward with your reasons about the offering in Malachie For you see how we are fallen from the Pope to Priests from Priests to the Masse from Masse to the Saintes And if I should folow the same veyne on that which you haue saide of Saintes and touch your abuse who confessing that the scriptures giue that name to faithfull and holy persons in earth yet to maintaine your solemne inuocation of dead men do make it proper not to Saintes in heauen but to them whom it shall please the Pope to canonize or deifie as the Master of his sacred ceremonies termeth it wherin notwithstanding your Doctors also teache that the Pope may erre and canonize a wicked person for a Saint so that it may be euen by your owne doctrine that in your Church-seruice you worship them as Saints whose spirits are in hell with the deuill and his Angels I say if I should flit thus from point to point on euery occasion that your speech doth offer we should confound our conference and neuer make an end of the point in question Wherefore let other questions I pray be reserued to their due place touchinge the faith of the Church And now to finish this touching the head of the Church let vs go forward with your Masse-priestes that so we may returne to the Popes supremacy Of the sixe reasons therfore which you alleaged out of D. Allen to proue that the cleane offring which Malachie doth write of is the sacrifice of the Masse and not spirituall sacrifices the first is conuinced clearely to be false and that by the consent of all the same Fathers whom he would proue it by For the word which noteth an outward sacrifice with him with all them is incense of sweete perfumes and odours But incense in the scripture is taken for the praiers of the Saintes as you grant The word then which he doth build the Masse vpon is not alwayes taken properly in scripture for the act of outward sacrifice Hart. But he doth not onely vrge the word to sacrifice for which indéede the Fathers and the Hebrewe text haue incense but the word to offer And if that be alwaies taken properly for the act of outward sacrifice his reason is of force still Rainoldes But the force of his reason doth lye vpon the word to sacrifice not to offer For him selfe granteth that lay men yea women too are said to offer properly and truely when as in the olde law the tithes and first fruites commanded to be giuen to the Leuites and the poore were presented before God so they present bread and wine for the communion or almes for the reliefe of the poore and needy or any earthly giftes and offerings for holy vses as the Fathers shew Wherefore though the word to offer were alwaies taken properly for the act of outward offering it proueth not the offering of your outward sacrifice sith the wise men offered giftes vnto Christ the faithfull Iewes at the altar lay men and women at the Masse and yet nether any of them were Massing-priests nor their offerings Massing-hosts Much lesse doth it proue it as Malachie applyeth it to the offering of incense For as incense signifieth the prayers of the Saintes so to offer incense must be to sacrifice those prayers But the sacrifice of prayers is a spirituall sacrifice Wherfore the word to offer doth not proue your outward sacrifice of the Masse And so the first reason is gone The second foloweth which is no sounder then the former For why doth Allen say that the
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is
l Ep. 〈◊〉 Afric ad Bonifacium Câ—lestinum m Cont. Iulian. Pâ—lagâ— l. 1. c. 4. 7 〈◊〉 tempore prior loco n Epist. 16â— * 〈…〉 Chapt. 7. Diuiâ— â— o Motiu 14. The first DiuisioÌ„ a 1. Tim. 3.15 b Mal. 2. ver 7. c ver 8. d 1. Tim. 1.3 e Concil Flor. Session vlt. Laon Chalcocondylas de rebus Turc lib. 6. f Ep. 55. ad Cornelium 1 Statutum est omnibus nobis 2 Iam causa eoâ—rum cognita cit 3 Sciunt quo râ—uertantur 4 â—isi paucis desperatis perciti â—â—uinor videtur 〈…〉 g The Discouerer 〈…〉 * It is Sanders answere De vi 〈…〉 lib. â— h Lib. â— epist. 3. ad Step 〈…〉 Epiâ—t 67. Paâ— i Staplet pâ—â—nâ— doctrin l. 6. c. 17 â—he discou of 〈◊〉 3. 5 Ad coepiscopos noâ—â—ros in Gaâ—â—â—s 6 Eâ—p ouinciam ad pâ—â—ebem â— relâ—ate condâ—entem k De reformaâ— eccle consid 3. l Epist. Synod African ad cler pleb in Hispan Cyprian Ep. 68. m Epist. 67. ad Stephanum 7 Ideâ—rco â—aim â—â—pâ—osum corpuâ— est sâ—cerâ—otum concorâ—iae 〈◊〉 glutâ—no aâ—que vnitatis vinculo câ—pulas tum vt si quis ex collegio nostro 〈…〉 facere gregâ—m Chriâ—â—â—â—e 〈◊〉 〈…〉 bueniant cateri quasi paâ—â—ores vtiles misericordes quioue Domigicas in gregem colligant n Aen. Siluius Card. ep 288. o Bellaâ—min 〈◊〉 â—om controuer 4. quaest 5. p Sigon de occident imper lib. 1. q Marcellini Papae condemnaâ—â—o Tom. 1. Cancilior r As Sigonius sheweth de occident imperio lib. 1. s Synod Roma sub Siluest Pap. act 1. cap. 1. t Platin de viâ— â—otit in Marco 〈◊〉 chronogr volum 2 generat 11. Viues de caul corrupt aâ—â— lib. 2. Aâ—â—â—at parerg iur lib. 7. ca. 19. u Synod â—om sub â—iluest â—ap act 2. * That is to say For no maÌ„ with the which worces almost all the canons of the seconâ— action beginne most 〈◊〉 x Nemo enim diiâ— dicet primam sedem cap. 20 y Euseb. histor eccles lib. 7. cap. 28. 29. z Nemo vnquam iudicauit Pontificem nec praeâ—â—l sacerdotem suum a Concil Niscaen can 4. b can 5. The secoÌ„d Diuision c Can. 6. d Epist. ad Michael Imperatorem Concilior Tom. 3. Sur. * Can. 9. In the which Nicolas saith the Pope is mâ—ant and none but the Pope â—y primas dia ceâ—â—os â— whereas in very truth the Councell meant euery Patriarke thereby as I haue shewed Chapt. 8. Diuision 5. e Hist. eccle lib. 1. cap. 6. f De concord cathol l. 2. c. 13. g Synod actau gener Constanâ— can 17. h Distinct 65. câ— mos antiqâ—us 1 Quando quideÌ„ â—omano â—piscopo parilis 〈…〉 Id 〈◊〉 si nilis in qâ—â—o aâ—dam quo â—â—am vterque deponitepiscâ—â—â—s 3 Vel dic Romano id est Constantinopolitano 4 Meâ—ius planius secundum Hug. i Sigon de occi Imper. lib. 3. 4. k In summa Conciliorum 5 Metropolitaâ—â— episcopo l Carranz annot in 6. can Conc. Niâ—aen m In Concil Chalced. act 16. n Dâ—â—en sid Trident. l. 2. 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 o Bellarmin in praelect Rom. contr 4. quaeâ—t 5. The abridgement of controuersies Controu 3. quaest 4. 8 Ecclesia Romana semper habuit primatuÌ„ p Action 16. 9 Quod ecclesia Romana semper â—abuit primatuÌ„ * A booke so entitled touching the controuersies of our time compiled by Robert Persons out of the Dictates of the Iesuites for ouâ— English Students and vsed to be writen out by the hearers thereof in the seminaries Wherin because such libels goe in writing only among their owne Nouices they coâ— and lie more boldly theâ— commonly they dare in print As any man that hath it if he compare their tractate of the Popes supremacie with this our conâ—erence shall perceaue q Rescript Iul. Pap. contra Orient Concil Tom. 1. r Concil Nicen. edit ab Alfonso Pisano can 39. t Annot. in Dist. 16. c. septuaginta s Chapt. 8. Diuis 6. 1 In sacro nostrae ecclesiae sedis scrinio 2 Testis est diuinitas u In Concil Carthag 6. African x Epist. Aegypt episcopor ad Marâ—um Pap. Conâ—â—rom 1. y Rescript Marâ—i Pâ—p Athanasiâ— omnibus Aegypt episcop z Epist. ad orthodoxos iâ— peâ—â—equâ—t a In Chronico b Alan Cop. dialog 1. cap. 7. c cap. 12. d Conc. Cart. 6. Africanum e Conc. Catthag 6. c. 9. f Conc. African c. 102. g c. 103. h Hist. eccle l. 1. c. 6. Though he recken two twentie by diuiding some of them as can 6. 3. i In princip Concilior de sâ—nodis princip k Coâ—c Antioch can 1. Theodâ—ret hist. eccles l. 1 c. 9. l Canones decreâ—a Concil Tridâ—â—tiâ—i m Conc. Carthag 6 c. 3. n Epist. Concil Africa 1. ad Boniâ—ac Caelest c. 101. 105. o Bellarmin in praelect Rom. Contr. 4. q. 5. p Concil Nicâ—e edit ab Alâ—on Pisan. can 8. The third Diuision q Conc. Antioch can 19. r can 6. 12. 20. s can 14. t can 1â— u Conc. Sardic can 5. * That is of his Clergie of the Church of Rome whence the name of Legates a latere is taken x Epist. ad Caelestin Concil African c. 10â— y Cusan de concordant cathâ—l l. 2. c. 25. z Athan. in Apolog 2. a Conc. Saâ—dic can 3. b Theodoret. hist. eccle l. â— cap. 8. c Priuilegium personale extinguitur cum persona De regulis Iur. in sext d Sander de viâ—ib Monar eccles lib. 7. Alan Cop. dialog 1. cap. 6. e Conc. Sardic can 3. 5. f can 23. 14. g Plini hist. nat l. 17. c. 4. h Conc. ConstaÌ„â—inop can 2. i 〈◊〉 3. k can 6. 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l Masiâ—s in Iosuam cap. 20. m Liui. lib. 1. n â—onc Afric cap. 101. o cap. 105. p Conc. Mileâ—itan can 22. * Ad â—ransmarina iudicia they terme it wherby the Pope is meant though Gratian fondly do except him 2. q. 6. c. placuit vt presbyteri q Conc. Carth. Grac. can 28. r Epist. Concil African ad Câ—lestin cap. 105. 3 Vniueâ—sale meaning a Synode of tâ—e diocese not of the whole world Concil Consâ—antinop can 6. 4 Fumosum typhum saeculi s Confess Aug. l. 1. c. 9. tit 6. t Campian Raâ—ione 4. The fourth Diuision u In sentent super petitione episcopor Cypr. x Can. 1. â—â— y Actioâ— 16. z Concil Chalced can 28. a can 9. 17. b Ann. Comneâ—a Alexiad l. 1. c Dist. 22. c. Renoâ—antes d Sext. Synod Constantinopolit in Trâ—ll can 36. 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Non â—ameâ— magnificetur * Cop. dialog 1. cap. 5. c Praefat. synod in Trullo ad Iustinian f Synod Nicaen â—ecund can 1. g Synod octau gener Constantinopolit can
vea 27. r ver 20. s 1. Tim. 1.17 t Rom. 11.20 u Gal. 6.2 x Phil. 2.12 y 2. Cor. 12.9 z Mark 9.24 a Luk. 7.47 b Luk. 17.5 c Luk. 11.4 d De perfect obed leg Dei e Contr. Bâ—â—ntium lib. 3. f Matt. 26.15 g 1. Ioh. 2 1â— h Gal. 1.6 i 1. Cor. 11.18 15.12 k Reu. 2. ver 15. l ver 20. m Reu. 3. ver 2. n ver 15. o Reu. 1.12 p 1. Tim. 3.15 p 1. Tim. 3.15 q Reu. 2. ver 4. r â—â—r 5. * Reu. â— â—â— s Matt. 18 1â— t Ioh. 10. ver 12. u ver 10. x Bernard in â—antic Ser. 33. y 1. Cor. 3.10 z 2. Pet. 2.1 a Euseb. hist. eccles l. 7. c. 22. b Theodoret. hist. eccles lib. 1. cap. 2. c Socrat. hist. ecc l. 7. c. 29. 32. d Theodoret. hist. eccles lib. 2. cap. 16. e Hieron dial cont Lucifer cap. 7. in Chronico Athanas epist. de synod Arim. Seleuciae f In epist. ad Procopium g Can. 59. h Constantinop in Trul. can 2. Concil Nicen. secund can 1. i Can. 47. k Session 4. l Can. 6. m Capit. 5. apud Innocenâ— tert n Sess. 4. 5. o Aene. Silu. de Concil Basil Concil Flor. Ferrar. in CoÌ„cilij indict p Bristow Motiu 3 and Demaund 8. The third conclusioÌ„ q 2. Tim. 3.16 r Tit. 1.2 s Deâ—ens â—id â—riâ— lib. 1. t Registr lib. 2. â—nd 11. ep 10. 1 Temerâ— nulla ratione 2 Non afflatuâ— sancti spiritus 3 Rumoris auram inanem 4 Hominum opiniones sallaces u Concil 6. â—â—â—nor Constanâ—inop action 13. x Ecclesiast hiâ—â—rar l. â— c. â— * Non vt praeessent sed vt subcisent y Histor. natur lib. 36. cap. 10. z Mal. 4.2 a Mat. 18.17 b De bapt conc Donatist lib. 2. c. 3. a 〈◊〉 1. â— b Matt. 7.19 c 2. Pet. 2.1 d 2. King 18. â—â— e Leo. epist. 8â— ad episcopos Palaest 〈◊〉 Rheâ—or 1. Demosthen contr Aâ—â—stocrat Lucian in Anachar g Acâ— 1â— 35 The fourth Conclusion h Eph. 1 4â— i 1. Pet. 2. â— k Matt. 2â— 34 l Hebr. 12.22 Reu. 2â— 2 m Psal. 87.1 n Ioh. 10 1â— o Eph. â— 19 p Reu. 20 1â— q Gen. 17.7 Leu. â—6 12 â—er 3â— â—3 â—eb 8.10 r Heb. 12.23 s Ephes. 1 5. t Ephes. 4.16 5.23 u Esai 1.4 x Maâ—t 7.23 y Zach. 14.21 z Reu. 21. â—7 a Rom. 8.30 b Eph. 5.26 * Reu. â—9 8 c Which are named proselâ—tes Mat. 23. â—5 Act â— 10 13 4â— d Esai 5â— 2 e Mat. 28.19 f Act. 1.8 g Act. 10.28 11.2 h Galatin de aâ—â—an cathol ver lib. 9. c. 12. i Eph. 2. ver 14. k ver â—0 l Psal. 87.4 m Reu. 5.9 n Concil Constant Sess. 15. o Artic. â— p Artic. 6. q Strom. lib. 7. r In epist ad Eph. cap. 3. s Moral in Iob. lib. 28. cap. 9. t In Cantic sermon 78. u Throughout all his bookes De ciuitate Dei x De rudib catechiz cap. 20. y De bapt cont Donatist l. 5. cap. 27. z Fran. Duar. de â—acr eccles minist l. 5. c. 11. a Extra c. vnam sanctam De maioritat obedient b Catechism Concil Trid. in exposit symb c Eph. 4. â—6 d Rom. 4.7 e Matt. 5.8 f Mat. 7. ver 24. g ver 25. h Ioh. 11. ver 49 i ver 50. The fifth coÌ„clusion k 1. Pet. 1.23 l 1. Cor. 3.2 m Heb. 5.14 n Eph. 6. ver 17. o ver 16. * Psal. 50. â—5 p Reu. 12. ver 9. * That is to say an aduersary q ver 13. 17. r Mat. 13.25 s Esai 1.21 Eze. 16.15 Hof 2.2 and the rest in mâ—ny places t Gal. 1. ver â— u ver 6. 7 x 2. Cor. 11. â— y Reu. â— â—5 z Reu. 3. ver 13. a ver 1. b ver 2. c ver 4. d Matt. 3 1â— e Matt. 13.27 f 2. Tim. 2.20 g Galen de sanit tuend lib 1. cap. 2. h Appian de bell Parth. i De re militar l 3. c. 2. k 1. Pet. 1 23. â— 2.2 l Wier de praestâ—g Daemâ—n l. 3. c. 17. m Amos 8.11 n 1. Tim. 6. ver 3. o ver 4. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p â— Tim. 2.17 q Mat. 21. â—â— r Reu. 2.5 1 As Bristow Moriu 12. with this speciall note in the mâ—rgent of his booke Note the Roman church the catholike church s Cod. de sâ—mma Trin. â—ide cathol t Epist. 55. ad Coâ—nelium 2 〈…〉 by â—he epistle of Cardinall Cusanus writen to the Bohemians Cochlaeus hiâ—â—or Mussitar lib. 11. u De saâ—it tuâ—nd lib. 1. cap. â— 5. x Appendix Apolog. eccles Angl. y Apologia â—ccles Angliâ—aâ— z Ioh. 21.16 a Matt. 28.20 b 1. Pet. 1.23 c 1. Pet. 2.2 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 d Matt. 23. â— e Matt. 16.6 f Concil Trident Sess. 4. g 3. â—sdr 4.43 5.73 Ecclesiastic 46.23 48.10 2. Mac. cap. 1.19 2.1 h 4. Esdr. 10.20 2. Maccab. 2.4 1. Maccab. 1.16 9.5 touching Antiochus Seâ— the Annotations of Franciscus Iunius on the Apocrypha i The Church of the Iewes Hier. praefat in Iudith caet lib. apocr Iosephus câ—nti Apion l. 1. Andrad desens fid Trid. lib. 3. k â—oncil Lâ—â—d can 59. Athana in synopsi sacraâ— scripturae Nazianzen in carminib Epiphan lib. de mensur ponder Hieron praesat in libr. Solâ—m l Concil Trid. Sess. 4. m 2. Tim. 3.16 See the first Conclusion n Baâ—il de spir sancâ— cap. 27. Epiph. haer 7â— o Bristow Moâ— 9. 46. Andr. â—â—fen fid Trid. lib. 2. p Concil Trid. Sess. 4. q Comment in prophet nou â—estam r August de doctr Christian. l. 16.2 cap. 15. Hilar. in Psal. 2. the rest who preferre the translation of the Seuentie inâ—erpreters See August de ciuit Dei lib. 18. cap. 43. s In epist. ad Clement sept t Annot. prior in Pandect Defens fid Trid. lib. 4. x Tom. 8. Bibli Reg. in praefat y Concil Trid. â—ess 4. z Cusan ad Bohemos ep 2. a Concil Trid. â—ess 6. cap. 10. b Matt. 15.9 c 1. Sam. 15.23 d Col. 2.23 e Concil Tâ—id Sess. 25. f Greg. registr lib. 9. ep 9. * By the word idiotae which Gregory vseth in this point he meaneth the vnlearned that can not reade things writen Of whom he saith that painting hath the same vse for idiotes which writing hath for them that reade g Iere. 10.8 h Hab. 2.18 i Col. 3.16 k Deu. 6.9 11.18 31.11 Luke 11.28 Reu. 1.3 l Nehem. 8 9. Luk. 4.17 Act. 8.30 13.15 17.11 m All the ancient Churches as appeereth by Ierom Epist. ad Laetam de institut filiae ad Demetr de virgin ad Fur. de viduit seruand By Chrysost. In Ioan. homil 16. Prooemio in epist. ad Rom. In epist. ad Col. hom 9. and the rest of the Fathers n Dialog de
the fyer frends to the sword brethren to cruell death and stained the faith of Christ with reproches creatures with the Lordes honour Gods seruice with idolatrie we went away from Papists not willingly as from men not vnwillingly as from heretikes and reforming our Churches by the rule of Gods worde we seuered them from the contagion of the Church of Rome Wherin because nothing was doon by our brethren but that which the Apostle S. Paul a chosen instrument of the holy Ghost both did and taught to be doon as I haue proued in the Conclusion the Lord shal iudge beweene our Churches and Bristow who condemneth them of the same schisme of which the Donatists were guiltie and he will giue sentence in the last day that we haue beene seuered from the Church of Rome by the prescript of his word that is lawfully But some man will say you ought not to leaue the felowship of the Romans of them which are at Rome beloued of God Saints by calling whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world But I answere that the Romans which now are there be not Romans they be carkases of Romans It is an other Milo his lustie armes are dead It is an other Hector how greatly chaunged from him But you ought to obey and not resist the Pope of Rome most good in grace most great in power the vicar of Christ the successour of Peter But that we must resist him if he command thinges vniust and pernicious yea that it is the dutie of Princes to resist him in vnlawfull thinges the Papists them selues teach But Christians ought to keepe vnitie of spirit in the bond of peace and the name of peace is sweeete the thing it selfe both pleasant and healthfull But through vnitie of spirit we ought to grow together into the vnitie of of faith and to be all of one minde but in the Lord. If peace should be made with the Pope and Papists it would be like the peace with Antonie and his adherents that is not a peace but an agreement of slauery to them nay of impietie Wherefore as Agamemnon in a Gréeke Poet did answere his brother Menelaus of whom he was requested to shew him selfe a brother by giuing his consent to a wicked act so doo I answere my brother requesting me to ioyne with him in felowship of the Church of Rome whose faith is vnholy whose seruice is vngodly My wittes I would enioy with thee But madde with thee I would not bee And here an ende of my preface Onely this remaineth that I desire hartily and beséech all Christians who shall take paines in reading hereof that they will reade weigh and interpret all thinges with a Christian minde lay aside the preiudice of their owne opinions examin the spirits whether they be of God or no séeke to finde the truth and loue it being found aduertise me if they thinke I haue missed in any thing beare with my briefenes because I was constrained to shut vp much in few wordes looke how faithfull and diligent I haue béene in opening and prouing the Conclusions whereof God is my witnes who will reuâ—ale the secretes of thoughtes so moderate and indifferent let them shew them selues in censuring and iudging of that which they shall reade as before the Lord who shal be iudge of iudges Finally let them folow the godly people of Beroea who when Paul preached receiued the word with al readines of mind and dayly serched the scriptures whether those things were so not the froward Luciferians of whom he confesseth who best knew the maners of his owne companions that they might be conuinced more easily then perswaded As for you my fathers and brethren welbeloued with remembrance of whom I haue consecrated my labour such as it is to the Church of God I pray you and beséech you by our Lord Iesus Christ who hath redéemed vs with his pretious blood and sanctified vs to him selfe that you will striue by all meanes to aduance the glory of God to cherish the séedes of godlinesse to helpe forward the Churches safetie to nourish fruitfull plantes to make the Uniuersities praise to be encreased I meane the prayse which is not of men but of God Confute you the ill spéeches of Bristow by your deedes and shew by your workes that the crimes wherewith hee chargeth vs are sclanders Bestow ye well the good oportunitie of time in studie of good artes by hearing reading disputing meditating speaking and writing Doo ye the worke of the Lord with ioynt desire and will and trauaile one body one spirit one hart one way Stirre vp exercise of learning decayed I had almost said but I hope better Destroy those wanton lusts that draw men from studie idlenes a swéete euill delicacie the baite of Venus the ryote of feasts the vanitie of apparell vnhonest pastimes vnseasonable drinkinges the plagues of stageplayers the sights and shewes of Theaters Last of all to conclude with the Apostles wordes whatsoeuer things are true what soeuer things are honest whatsoeuer things are iust whatsoeuer things are pure whatsoeuer things are woorthie loue whatsoeuer things are of good report if there be anie vertue and if there be any praise thinke ye on these things If there be any vertue and if there be any praise brethren thinke ye on these things The God of might and mercie lighten vs all with the grace of his holy spirit that the heads of Colleges may be present to gouerne and gouerne to benefit the companie committed to them as Samuel was wont that the members of Colleges may lerne vnder Samuel to prophecie by speaking of and setting foorth the praise of God as the prophets did that young men who studie the artes of humanitie may in other things be vnlike to Saul yet like to Saul among the prophets that Colleges themselues and all our companies may be assemblies not of prophets onely but of such as prophecie and folow the lessons of the prophets to the honor of God the comfort of the godly and our owne saluation through Iesu Christ our Lord. Fare ye well From Corpus Christi College The 2. of February 1580. Yours in Christ Iesus Iohn Rainoldes CONCLVSIONS HANDLED AT THE ACT IN S. MARIES CHVRCH THE XIII Oâ— IVLY 1579. 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation WHen Moses went by Sinai mount toward the holy land FroÌ„ Gods owne mouth the law he wrote the Lord did guid his hand The Prophets next with sacred â—en did bolde that heauenly â—â—ce Whom the almightie from aboue indued with his grace The wisdome of his father high the sonne of virgin pure Anointed with the spirit of God mens sinfull soules to cure The word of the eternall Lord with flesh of man yclad Brought them the treasures rich of life of peace the tidings glad Th' Apostles with this
doctrine swéete of Christ their master fedde By preaching first by wryting then to nations all if spred And these bookes hath the holy Ghost set foorth for mortall wights That we in course of faith and life might folow them as lights Auant all ye who brain-sick toies and fansies vaine defend Who on humane traditions and Fathers sawes depend The holy written word of God doth shew the perfit way Whereby from death to life arise from curse to blisse we may 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine TO warfare euery one dooth goe that serueth Christ in field To warfare all their names are billed who doo Gods armour wéelde And doost thou man in warfare serue and art thou frée from blowes And may no dart thy body pearce assaulted by the foes The citie of Ierusalem with holy Church was dight That holy Church kept not her course at all assaies aright Corinthus godly was and pure Philippi shone full bright The faith of Thessalonians was spred in glorious plight Corinthus pure is stayned now Philippi lyes defaced Your praise O Thessalonians is by the Turke disgraced And thou O Rome the Qâ—éene of pride which swell'st on mountaines seuen Thy hart is pearst with deadly wound thou fall'st to hell from heauen While that the Church doth make abode on earth in seats of clay Am I deceiued or may she féele the dint of errours sway 3 The holy scripture is of greater autoritie then the Church THe godlesse rowt inflam'd with lust of holding scepter hie Dooth lift the stately throne of Rome vnto the golden skie Unto the skie that pride were â—inall nay faâ—re aboue the skie Subduing Christ his scepter great to Romish royaltie Men say that Giants did attempt the heauenly powers to quell What doo they raise new warres againe from grisly gulfe of hell The holy church may for it selfe claime worthy gifts of right T is great I graunt but lesse I trust then is the Lord of might Let mortall things geue place to God let men to Christ accord The wife to man the earth to heauen the subiect to the Lord. ALthough I am not ignorant right worshipfull audience that Cato the graue Censour reprooued a certaine Roman who taking vpon him to write a storie in Greeke had rather craue pardon of his fault in dooing it then kéepe himselfe cléere from committing that fault yet so it hath hapned to me at this present yelding shal I say thereto or refusing it surely some what against my will but so it hath hapned that I who could not choose but commit a faut am forced to request you to pardon my faut For both the weakenes of my voice because it is not able to fill the largenesse of this place wil discontent perhaps them who heare me not and the vnripenesse of my abilitiâ— which I feare me will not answere the solemnitie of this assemblie in handling those things that are to be debated will of likelihoode be reproued by them who heare me How much the more earnestly I am to request by word you that heare me by will the rest who heare me not that either you wil be no Censours at all or els be more fauourable Censours then Cato least either you iudge me to haue dealt vnwisely who did not kéepe my selfe from fault or impudent who first commit it and then request you not to blame it Neither do I dout but I shal finde defense for the weakenes of my voice in your frendly curtesiâ— before whom I speake for the vnripenes of my abilitie in the goodnes of the cause which I haue to speake off For that your curtesie will condemne me of that fault which I could not eschew I néede not to feare And the goodnes of the cause hath in it such euident and cléere light of trueth that I doo not dout it will defend it selfe though no man pleade for it Wherein I hope also that you euen your selues either doo already or will agrée with me if you shall heare me open as briefly as I may the meaning of the thrée Conclusions that I hâ—ld the perfection of the scripture the infirmitie of the Church the autoritie of them both For as for the praise and commendation of Diuinitie whereof the beginning is from heauen the maiestie diuine the office to be an instrument of saluation to mankinde which was ordeyned by God the father reueled by Iesus Christ registred in writing by the holy Ghost I cannot speake thereof as I would according to the woorthines of the thing as I may according to my power I ought not In the one I hope you approue my good will in the other I beséech you take my iudgement in good part For I doâ— not say by way of amplification colourably that I refraine therefore from the praising of it because my woundering at it dooth dasell like the brightnesse of the sun-beames the eyes of my minde as Tully faineth of Caesar that the people shewed not their good will toward him by ioyful clapping of their hands because that they being amazed with woondring at him could not stirre themselues But as the prophet Esay witnesseth of God that when he behelde his maiestie he was dismaied because he was a man of polluted lips vnworthie to behold the king and Lord of hostes so may I protesâ— from my hart in trueth that when I consider the highnes of Gods worde I holde my peace as amazed because I am a man of polluted lips vnfitte to touch the noblenesse of a thing so woorthie Wherefore I willingly leaue these Iuy-garlands to be hanged vp by them who vent the wine of Philosophie Physike and Lawe which artes very profitable but for the life that fadeth excellent but humaine commendable but transitorie beutifull but brittle I dout not but already the learning and eloquence of men well séene therein hath made you wel to like of in this exercise of disputations Now I take a greater enterprise in hand for the valour of the thing which I am to deale with though nether with better witte nor deeper iudgement then they whom I folow in the course of dealing Liuie reporteth that Annibal hauing purposed to fightâ—with the Romans did cause certaine couples of captiues to fight one with an other hand to hand before he set his souldiers in battaile aray that his Carthaginians might by that pastime of the captiues combat addresse them selues with better consideration and courage to the serious and set battaile In like sorte there haue béene brought before you gentle audience to the combat sundrie opinions of sundrie artes as it were cooples of captiues which whether they liue or dye be so or not so it skilleth not greatly the state of the realme is not ventured vpon it But now from that sporting conflict of light matters there cometh to the battaile for earnest tryall of thinges of weight host against host truth against falshood religion against errour wherein if we swarue out