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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A02200	M. Some laid open in his coulers VVherein the indifferent reader may easily see, hovve vvretchedly and loosely he hath handeled the cause against M. Penri. Done by an Oxford man, to his friend in Cambridge.	Throckmorton, Job, 1545-1601.; Greenwood, John, d. 1593, attributed name.; Penry, John, 1559-1593, attributed name.	1589 (1589)	STC 12342; ESTC S118462	88,170	130

of the reyns because the veynes that swel so are commonly fuller of winde then of bloud yet for mine owne part I had rather a great deale attribute all these defects byships out rules of his to that extreame passion and vnrulye affection that quite overswareth his judgment and is able both to mate and to amaze a man yea and soe to blindefolde and bewitch him that he may soone breake his face against a walle if he looke not to it And this sure was the cause as I judge that the verye maine pointe betwixte his aduersatie and him he had not it shoulde seeme any leasure to pervse Eor the question being whether we may be assured to receiue a Sacrament at the Dumbe Ministers hands the very marrow and life of the whole controuersie lying in this word Assured your D. hath faier giuen it the slipp and hath not as far as I see in any on line clauze or sentence thorough out his whole booke so much as looked that way Nay it seemeth to me he is halse afraied of it when he seeth it For in the last place that I before mentioned of th'Edomites where M. Pemi saith that the godly cannot assure themselues c. what saith M. Some to this Not a word I warrant you tush he is among the organs at Pauls or els looking out of his window towardes Lambeth what should he meddle with the thing in question Can not an olde vniuersitie man finde his pen play enough without that And therefore hee threatens kindenesse on his aduersarie and wil needs wring from him whether he will or no. An acknowledgment of a Sacrament among the Edomites and prayeth him to remember it yet some mē thinke this matter of Assurance had bin the most need ful thing of al other for your D. to haue dealt in for the cutting of of al seruple and the satisfing of mens mindes For though a man shoulde make no question of the baptisme deliuered in times past by popish shauelings but satisfiing himselfe with those other comforts that he findeth in the holy excercises of Religion should neuer trouble himselfe to looke back so farre though I say a man should make no question of that which is past yet I se no hurt to desire to be assured in that which is to come which Assurance as M. Penri saith can never be had but by saith in the promises of God and that is the point he stands most vppon in al his writings vz. that in the whole scripture of God there is no promise to bare readers and men without gifts to deliuer and therefore no warrant for vs to receiue any sacrament at their hands All which if M. Some could overthrowe any otherwise then with some such stale jeasts as this why then my grandefather was not christened he might happen work more miracles then he is like to doe For he must thinke that it is neither these consequences nor inconueniences that smel so much of the flesh nor yet the authoritie of Calvin or Beza though wee shoulde admire their gifts and reuerence them as Angells that can settle a mans hart in this case it must be only the word of the living God and nothing els out of which whensoeuer we see any sufficient recorde to warrant this promise wherevppon our faith must be grounded it shall by Gods grace drawe presently from vs a willnig and reuerent subscription to the truth with an open revocation of al that ever hath bin written in that pointe to to the contrary But that there is no such Scripture to be had for money wee gather as by others so specialy by this late treatise of M. Somes wherin I dare be bold to say and I speake it advisedly for I thinke I haue vewed it meetly wel there is not to be found any on text of holy scripture to proue this Assurance which is the maine point in question and then say we whatsoeuer he proueth els there is some reason he should haue his labour for his travell because he hath bene at so vnreasonnable charges to wounde his owne shadow and do his adversarie no hurt Touching that point That the popish Churche is in a sort the Churche of God though an vnsounde Church More then that he croppeth out of Caluine Phillip de Mornay and others whiche was not written in suche strange characters neither but that it might be easily vnderstood before M. Some reuealed it vnto vs there is little I dare warrant you of his owne worth taking vp as they say and that is the thing that we expect in a learned man especially in this florishing age of the Gospell to yeeld vs some sapp and ioyce of his owne that thereby our judgements might be bettered and we also occasioned to praise the giftes and graces of Gods spirit as wel in him as in others Otherwise thus to cloy vs still and ouercloye vs with other mens sayings why alasse you see Th'alabaster man of Sarum can do that for need and that I warrant you so thicke and in so good order that if he coulde but handsomly turne to them without helpe it were euen learning inough for a man of his mediocrity neither might we well require more at his handes with modestie as in one of his bookes the 5. as I remember you shal find that the good soule hath fumbled together little lesse then 60. pages of other mens writings and scarce 4. or 5. whole ones of his owne and is not that a sweete kinde of bookemaking for a mirror to posteritie Now for the reasons that your D. seemeth to bring of his owne I am sorie to thinke they should be so ouer travelled or troubled with a Sciatica that they should not be able to looke a man in the face without limping Will you consider of them a little and tell mee whether they come not towards you for all the world like Cripplegate men as if they had need poore creatures of some Hospitall to relieue them The very name saith he of reformed Churches doth manifestly import that the churches of England Germanie Denmarke c. though popishe and vnsound were yet churches in a sort before or why els shoulde they bee called reformed churches What good lucke was it then that the protestant churches should light on the name of reformed churches at the first For if in liew of this they had happened to haue bene called Christian Churches you may see M. Some had bene in some distresse for one of his braue arguments and so peradventure his book would haue prooued lesse then it is by one 7. or 8. lines at the least For christian Churches could neuer haue done him halfe that pleasure as to haue implyed any necessitie that the church of Rome must needs be in a sort the Church of God before But it is onely this worde reformed that hath stroken it dead Hath not M. Some then good cause to bidd A blessing goe with him whosoeuer he were that in

their judgment in that M. Some hath branded them al with this marke that they are void of common sence Thus you see howe easilie a wise man may overshut him selfe when he is in his ruffe and therefore it is most rrue as one saide once That a pacient minde discerneth aright but a passionate hart seldome seeth the trueth here you see your learned doctor hath granted the poore ignorant Welchman both the maior and the minor so that I see no shift in the worlde but only M. Bridgis his shift that is to deny the conclusion Well howsoeuer in discretion or otherwise in a kind of conceitednesse he may happely overshut him selfe you tel me that questionlesse he is learned It may be so neither wil I say against it I knowe there may be wine enough in the seller when there is non in the cuppe and it may bee that M. Some in this encoumpter against M. Penri did chuse rather to look vp his learning against the rising of some billowe or tempest then to stand powring it out against so weak an aduersarie whom his conceite might casely ennough be ouerthrowne with a blast of words But the thing we stand vpon is this that howe learned soeuer he be he hath shewed litle of it in this treatise And that if those worthy men whome in hart I reuerence and whose guises I admire M. Fulke and M. Whitaker I meane had acquited them selues noe better against their seueral aduersaries then M. Some hath done against his your famous vniuersitie that you boast of had bene like enough to haue receiued a scarre in the face long ere this and therefore let your D. ruffle it neuer so much in bigge words and countenances yet I can tel you if he releeue vs not better in his next supply then he hath done hithertoe be he as lerned as he wil we Oxforde men shal thinke that M. Penri hath a greate dealo more cause to feare th'Archb his purseuant then your D. penne For what call you lerning in this age I would you would your selfe take some paines to draw an Analisis of your Doct. booke and then tel me whether we judge amisse For mine owne parte I confesse to you I haue viewed it and reuiewed it and I finde very litle in it but that which may easily be drawen to one of these 4 heads The 4. principall heades or common places of M. Somes book 1 Bitter and spightful speaches to bring his aduersarie into danger 2 Bare and naked assertions as if it were sufficient that himselfe doth say so 3 Needlesse positions that few or none euer doubted of 4 The bare authoritie and Judgement of men without ground In these with the begging of the question and the praising of himselfe lieth the sum of his whole booke I beleeue I say you cannot bringe me many thinges out of his treatise but it may easily be referred to on of these And these you knowe be noe such fortresses but that they may easily be battered and laide flatt to th'earth by a weker Cannon then euer M. Penri shote in his life By the way I pray you remember that I doe not in any sorte take exceptions to M. Somes learning in general that is to that knowledge which he fansieth to be in him selfe I meddle not with that onely to the learning which it hath pleased him to giue vs a tast of in this booke this is the thing that I thinke a very meane Scholler may justly complaine of without danger And I am verely perswaded I beare soe much reuerence to the man that if it were his doing he wrote it altogether without studie as it were vpon a spleene or in hast as he was riding to Lambeth Nowe for the first point which is his bitter over-passionate speaches I thinke you haue heard inough already for no longer a treatise then that is I dare say you thinke it was enough euea of conscience For the second vz. his autos ephe that is his bare and peremptory assertions if you finde that in any eight penny booke of some 40. leaues or there abouts for I think of it selfe it be not much bigger your D. hath cloyed our eares with aboue 400. of those speches without either sappe or salt in them will you not thinke it strange To tel you the very truth I haue taken some paines to reckon them lease by leafe and I finde them as I tel you aboue 400. much after the nature complection of these you are not ready you are to seeke in the principles of diuinity you knowe not your ignorance your speaches are very idle it is noe greate matter what you say your bolt is soone shotte your water is very shallowe your eies are not matches such trisles are toe base for your greate spirits your conclusion is nothing else but an Anabaptistical florish your argument is very nought fancie your argument is as weake as a staffe of reede your argument is as strong as a roppe of sand euery childe may see the weakenesse of it but I must be content to put it vp it is such ware as you haue He that wanteth woode must burne turse your writings are like the winde This beate of yours is like a blaze of thornes it will last but a while your cause is nought your armor is not of proofe your diuinitie is as a lowe ebbe your arguments are pitiful your answeres are sily c. And if I should goe one I thinke I shoulde tyre you I hope you will witnesse with me though there may be some little eloquence yet there is noe greate learninge Logicke or diuinitie in this It is sure but the good luck that some men haue ouer others for if poore M. Penri had written thus he should haue bene chronicled I warrant you for a cobling welchman while he had liued For the thirde Piller of M. Doctors booke that is needelesse positions whereof there is smale controuersie I thinke I shal not neede to wander farr to finde your presidents for M. Some himselfe in the beginning of both his bookes doth lay them downe to vs in a role it were to no vse and a mere spending of time to runn through them all and therefore I will onely recorde some fewe of them for a tast of the rest A godly prince saith he may and ought to compell his subiects if any refuse to th'externall seruice of God This being a matter so notably throughlie handeled alreadie by M. Fulke and M. Wyborne against Howlet that almost there cannot any thing be added to that which they haue sett downe I muse your D. would be at cost to print vs a newe Almanacke of the last yeare I doe not knowe of any that professe the holy religion of God in soundenesse and sinceritie that will denie this And therefore I dare say for M. Penri that he wil willingly with hart and hande subscribe to it yea and I thinke he will if neede be adde one

Th'onely way that I see is to couch vnder the board and keepe close for the time till that same perillous pillorie whiche so frighteth and threatneth men with their cares be shifted or remooued out of his place In deed it is not vnlike that some of their wretched and fawning soliciters doe but too often warble vpon that string in her Majesties cares thereby to make way to the rest of their odious and malicious complaints And me think I should see some reuerent B. or other one his knees before her maiestie as one loath to speake good man but only that the heinousnes of the case doth therevnto force him as it were against his wil and therfore he begins I warrant you with a sigh or 2. fetched from the very depth of his bowels in this sort O Madame you may see nowe what your puritans are come to As men alwaies rising from one error to another neuer at rest they are nowe growen to this that your Maiestie is not christned are you not greately beholden to them By this your highnes may measure the fruite of the rest of their desires Therefore you may yeeld to their newe platforme if you please but I feare Madame my hart trembleth to speake it you shal not enioy many good daies after Sure if wee may knowe of any such venemous complainte to her maiestie we wil fly to M. Some to prooue them liers all for he hath set downe in print that M. Penri is in the case of H. N. that is in manner a lone in this judgment of the Nulltie and therefore if they vse vs thus to make a number of vs when the sault if it be a falt lieth but in one alone though wee dare not tell them yet we will get M. Some to tell them that by their leaue they lye and they lye loudely toe But for the point wherein M. Some thinks he hath his aduersarie on the hippe first wee say for the clearing of our selues and we speak it even in singlenesse of heart be thou O God witnesse and reuenge if we lie that we doe account her maiestie the deare childe of God so marked from her Cradle and so chosen from the very foundations of th'earth whereof wee doubt not but shee hath had assured seales and testimonies to her owne soule not only by her outwarde and miraculous desiuerances but by an inwarde sense and seeling of Gods mercies she hath bene from her infancie through Gods greate mercie deliuered from the dregs of popery thereby from one of the gates that leadeth vnto hell She hath since that time made noe doubt some fruteful increase in the knowledge of the truth She hath bin kept from those soule and enormious sinns which other great States princes haue fallen into She hath not feared to professe and publikely to a vowe the cause notwithstandinge the frowning threats and practises of many other mightie potentates round about her yea though her blood haue bene many wayes vnjustly sought for and onely for the gospell sake yet hath shee not for any suche earthly respect abandoned the cause but hath boldly from time to time euen with joye of heart succoured the afflicted both at home and abroad yea and more it is manifest that vnder that happy and peaceable soveraigntie of hers many a thousand haue come to the sound knowledge of the trueth which were before in palpable darknes And these be to vs ward sussicient reasons motions to put vs out of doubt that whatsoeuer other wants weaknesses infirmities she may haue incident to flesh and blood yet that shee is the deare childe of God and right precious in his eyes if that be so then I hope I shall not need to stand loug about any pretie catechisme as M. Some hath done about the inabillitie of the regenerate to proue That whom God loueth he loueth for euer for I do assure my self meaner mé thé M. Some are resolued in that Wel that then being set down for granted That whom God loueth he loueth sor euer and that it is vnpossible for al the power of hell and darknes to wipe her Majestie out of the booke of life wherein she is written let vs com to that wound that M. Some and others do think to be so vncurable namely That her Maiestie should be vnbaptized First though it be very cleare that M. Penri doth not say so altogether disclaiming the point as an odious and fruitlesse controuersie yet because M. Some wil stil be hagling at that biting consequent as a man halfe starued and hungerbit for want of other sustenance let vs alowe for once that M. Penri did say soe in deede what then What wil your learned D. assume vppon that I trust if it were granted him for a maior a man might soone ghesse what woulde be his minor namely this I am perswaded if you be not wel coniured by the magistrate you wil proue a strange body and then what should be the conclusion but Hue Crie So that if the cutlers shoppe doe not better befriende your D. in this case then th'vniuersity he is at a stand But let vs presuppose that her maiestie were vnbaptised though I knowe of none that say so yet so long as shee hath the inwarde baptisme that is so long as shee is baptized of the holy Ghost and with fier hauing joyfully embraced the holy faith of the sonne of God and withall hauing the seale and assurance of that which shal neuer be taken from her that is of remission of sinns in the death righteousnes of Christ and that more is hauing also many times bin comfortably fedde and refreshed at the Lords table by those holy seals of her redemption as a farther pledg of the fauour and mercy of God I see no reason nor I know no vse why after all this that she should be brought backe againe to the sacrament of her entrance and ingrasting into the body if it were so that she were not baptized if there be any other mistery in the matter I franckly confesse it is more then I see as yet As for that ineuitable and remedilesse necessitie of the Sacrament which the bewitched papists doe so sottishly dreame of I hope al the children of God haue long a goe turned that strange beast a grazing as hauing bin safficiently taught That it is not the want of the sacrament but the contempt and neglect of the sacrament that is damnable Nowe her maiestie being already perswaded in her hart that shee is baptized cannot thereby justly be said either to contemne or neglect the sacrament because she resteth in that perswasion howsoeuer it be whether she be baptized or no be ing cleare from these 2. sinns of contempt and neglect we are assured it shall noe kinde of waie redound to her hart because shee is the childe of God and wee doubte not but shee findeth and feeleth daylie those inward comforts and tokens of Gods loue towardes her as neither

midwife rebaptizing be not admitted For when it is done according to the forme of the questions set downe in the booke if it shoulde be condemned as no baptisme it would in th'opinion of many learned draw some error of doctrine and inferre greater inconuenience then in any Church may be borne that is an infinite number which neuer had other baptisme should nowe be rebaptized and all those of yeares of discretion that were dead and were onely so baptised depart without the seale of Gods promise in the Sacrament The learned doe right wel knowe how the primitiue Church and the learned fathers that liued therein shunned rebaptization though the former baptisme were ministred either by lay persons or children Therefore the booke prouiding only for the remedy thereof ought not to be condemned Thus far my good L. of Winchester The summe whereof is this That the booke of common praier condemneth the baptisme of midwiues and yet admitteth no other baptisme for feare of rebaptization And why then should her Maiestie be brought back againe to baptisme when such as in our owne judgments were neuer baptized in deede are notwithstanding let alone without any farther addition or supply of the sacrament and yet as I saide before not barred from the communion for all that Therefore presuppose nowe a man should tell M. Some plainly that in the popish Church there is noe true baptisme what would he inferre vpon that marry that many thousands are at this day vnbaptised what then Whie then they ought to be brought back againe to baptisme Nay soft by his fauor I deny that for that you see is flatly ouerthrown by the judgment and practise of the Church of England and therefore it becommeth both M. Some and me to sit downe by it with reuerence So that if my L. of Cant. shoulde nowe be baptized by a woman as being so long agoe who dare take his oath to the contary And my L. of Winchester by a popish shaueling what reason is it that my L. of Winchester should be washed a newe seeing it is a ruled case that my L. of Cant. must not And yet it may be for the true substance of Baptisme they may well goe together in one ballance and neuer a barrel better hearring But it may be you will altogether condemne this poore judgment of the Bishops as manifestly bewraiing very grosse palpable ignorance wherin though I should not dissent from you yet in as much as he is in place of on of the graue Patriarches of our church there is noe reason but that his very credite countenance if there were nothing els should in this case be sufficient to crushe in peeces a better mans judgement then M. Somes Beside that he is one of our ordinaries you knowe and the statute saieth as I take it that in matter of doubt or scruple we must alwaies relie vpon the sence and interpretation of our ordinary howsoeuer it be I hope you wil beare me witnesse that by this meanes both my propositions are as substantially proued as a man would wish the deane of Sarum being author of th'one and my L. of Winchester in a sort confirming th'other And this I tell you before hand therefore looke to it and say you had warning that if I catche M. Some once in that veine that he wil make no boanes to reiect and set light by such men as these th'one a deane th'other a Bishop and both pillers of our Church I will certainly in my next letter giue M. Penri leaue to deny Caluin if he haue but the bare trueth on his side and you cannot say nowe but you haue had warning wherein yet by your fauor your D. case must needs be the harder in that he cannot wel denie any of these reuerent men but he must withal be forced inclusiue to giue a foule checke to our Church and State Which rather then Gosser Bridges would doe I knowe him so well that I presume he would rather in reuerence denie S. Paul or any of the 12. Apostles and what a sound harted subiect is that In deede I must needs say thus much for him if he would wish me in my graue that when he doth confute S. Paul he doeth it lightly with as much reuerence as ever I heard or read of in my life wel here againe is offered me occasion to borrowe an other peece of copia rimarum out of M. Deane of Salisburies buttery booke and to come vpon M. Some once more with a dutch figure or two in this extrauagant manner Yea my learned brother are you good at that Is the winde in that doore Are you nowe come to that height of conceite in your selfe as not to feare openly to controle a whol Church or state Fye Fye brother either vnsay that again or farewell all brotherhood c. But I wil not blot any more paper with such ware as this there is enough of it to be had in the west Country if a man could light on it only you may imagine if M. Penri should haue thus crossed and encountered the doings of our Church and State what a heauie sentence should haue passed vpon him then I warrant you the streets would haue rong of that Proude scismatical Anabaptist which had so troubled heuen church common wealth c. And thus you see the ginnes that are so purposely set for an other may somtimes ensnare the fouler himselfe As to that greate scule rolle of errors and absurdities charged with such an imperiall Maiestie vppon the poore Welch mans head I knowe 〈◊〉 well what to say only if I had bene of Councel withal at the beginning th'enrollement shoulde haue bene made in parchment and not in paper For nowe being but bare paper see the ill luck of it the Mice haue so mangled the record that the absurdities were neuer worth talking of since therefore the onely shift for your D. is to get them passe by parliament if he can for otherwise to take them to be such vppon his bare worde he must pardon vs for that for if he were Archb. of Cant. I tel you we would be loath to take his worde in this case we heare in deed many times a great noise and a rusteling and we see before vs as it were a swelling sea of big words telling vs many wonders of certaine strange blasphemies absurdities and I knowe not what but when we come to examine them by the touchston and look to be satisfied by some plaine demonstration or silogistical profe then beholde in liew of this there appeares before vs a man new come out of the cloudes as it were with his mace in his hand and his sandalles on his feet as it should seme rather to make lawes then to handle controuersies pointing with his finger at this and at that telling vs what he thinks as if al the world were to gape vpon him For what els should all these pretty flowers meane wherin for the most