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A84760 A sober answer to an angry epistle, directed to all the publick teachers in this nation, and prefixed to a book, called (by an antiphrasis) Christs innocency pleaded against the cry of the chief priests. Written in hast by Thomas Speed, once a publick teacher himself, and since revolted from that calling to merchandize, and of late grown a merchant of soules, trading subtilly for the Quakers in Bristoll. Wherein the jesuiticall equivocations and subtle insinuations, whereby he endeavours secretly to infuse the whole venome of Quaking doctrines, into undiscerning readers, are discovered; a catlogue of the true and genuine doctrines of the Quakers is presented, and certaine questions depending between us and them, candidly disputed, / by [brace] Christopher Fowler & Simon Ford, [brace] ministers of the Gospel in Reding, Fowler, Christopher, 1610?-1678.; Ford, Simon, 1619?-1699. 1656 (1656) Wing F1694; Thomason E883_1; ESTC R207293 63,879 81

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whether you vvill submit your Revelations to this Touchstone or no If so you yeild the question If not then whatever Commands or Prohibitions you receive in the way of revelation you must obey vvhether agreeing or disagreeing to the written Law of God And then how far the examples of Abraham offering up his Son and Phinehas executing vengeance yea and vvhen time serves Ehuds message from God to Eglon may be witnessed in you as you speak we know Judg. 3. 19 not and shall pray vve never may by experience Q. 9. Whether the Scriptures do not establish it selfe as the rule of Faith in referring all pretenders to new light to the Law and the Testimony and telling us expresly That if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in Isa 20. 8. them And whether the light in you and in your companions be not darknesse that will not undergo this tryall Q. 10. Whether the phrases of walking in the Law of the Lord keeping Gods Testimonies taking heed to a mans way according to Gods word not wandering from Gods Commandements Ps 119 1 2. 9 10. 21. 30. 35. 51. 102. 110. 133. 157. laying Gods Jugdments before him going in the path of Gods Commandements not declining from Gods Law not departing from Gods Judgments not erring from his Precepts ordering his steps in Gods word not declining from his testimonies Are not cleare evidences that David made the written word that then was his Rule And you owne Davids Rule for yours p. 8. Q. 11. Whether you think in your conscience that Deut. 5. 32 33. doth not convincingly prove the Scripture to be the Saints rule The words are Yee shall observe to do therfore as the Lord your God hath commanded you and before vve have the repitition of the written Law You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left c. Your answer in your book is in summe P. 7. that all the Scripture was not then written But did not Moses therein establish as much as was then written for the rule the Saints of those times were to walk by Besides these words immediatly refer to the Morall Law before repeated in the same Chapter And will you exclude that from being the Saints rule as well as other Scriptures Then indeed there vvill be no duty or sin but as a man thinks Q. 12. Whether you deale honestly with Calvin in that P. 20. Scripture Eph. 2. 20. whilest you tell your Readers that he saith in Terminis That the Apostle doth in that Scripture intend Jesus Christ to whom the Prophets and Apostles did beare witnesse Whereas Calvin saith expresly It is without doubt that the foundation in this place is taken for the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles And therefore Paul teacheth that the Quin fundamentum hic pro doctrina sumatur minime dubium est Et itaque docet Paulus fidem ecclesiae in hac doctrina debere esse fundatam Calv. in l. Churches faith ought to be founded on this Doctrine And there is not any mention at all of those vvords in Calvin vvhich you quote from him To say the truth vve much vvonder how you could have the brazen face to father a saying upon Calvin vvhich he never said till vve looked upon Marlorate whose mis-quotation or rather the fault of his Printer it seemes deceived you for there vve find among other things there ascribed to Calvin this passage you mention But it concerned a man of your acutenesse not to have taken up a report from another vvhen Calvins vvorks are so common in every Shop and Study that vvith a little paines more you might have conversed vvith the Originall Author whence Marlorate makes his collections But it seemes you vvere vvilling to snatch at any thing that seemed to support your cause vvhere ever you found it And yet you shewed no part of ingenuity in your usage of Marlorate himself vvho together vvith that passage vvhich you quote and under the same note by which he distinguisheth Calvins vvords cites Calvin point blank against you saying that the Apostle shewes in that place how the Ephesians vvere made fellow Citizens vvith the Saints Nempe si fundati sint in Prophetarum Apostolorum Doctrinâ to wit If they be founded on the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles These words and others to the same purpose immediatly precede your owne quotation vvhich renders your dis-ingenuity the more culpable as shewing a vvilfull designe of abusing so reverend a name to delude your Readers Q. 13. In a vvord tell us ingenuously Whether we must or must not beleive the Doctrines which the Scriptures lay downe upon their owne authority If vve must vvhy do you quarrell at those that call them the rule ground foundation of faith seeing every intelligent man will tell you that it is the same thing to beleive the Doctrines of the Scripture upon the Scriptures authority and to make the Scriptures the ground rule foundation of faith If vve must not then tell us what superadded to the Scriptures owne Authority renders their Doctrines more credible We observe the Papists state this question as you do But they vvill answer us ingenuously That they beleive the Scriptures because the Church hath confirmed them And the Socinians are of your mind also but they deale fairely too and speak out That they will beleive the Scriptures as far as reason votes with them Would you speak out vve doubt you must confesse you are very neer these last in your judgment Why do you not tell us plainly that you beleive the Doctrines laid down in the Scripture as far as the light within you concurs with them And then vve shall know vvhat you mean in denying the Scriptures to be the rule and ground of faith Viz. That as much as pleaseth you you vvill beleive and vvhat dislikes you shall be cashiered as an old Declarative or an Almanack out of date as some of your Cater-cosins the Familists have blasphemously called the Bible Q. 14. Lastly Whether God vvill not judge every man vvho lives within the sound of the Gospell by the written word If not what meanes the Apostle Paul when he saith that as many as have sinned in the Law shall be judged by the Law in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel Rom. 2. 12. 16. And seeing we are upon this subject give us leave to enquire yet a little further what are those Books out of which the dead shall be judged and whence one day God will draw the rule of his proceedings in the day of Judgment as you may find Apoc. 2. 12. If God vvill judge us out of the written word after death surely we are not to be blamed if we study that Statute-Law and labour to conforme our beleif and practise thereunto whilest we live which must judge us when we dye Or else we pray you
Baxtet Quakers Catechism Tutors For are they not the very same things which they object against us That we have not an infalliable Spirit to interpret Scriptures and that we differ among our selves in our interpretations and therefore when we appeale to Scripture as the only Judge of Controversies between us they as you do deny it upon this account because we have no infallible Spirit to interpret the Scriptures controverted and thereby give an Authoritative decision of them And what we answer to them we therefore say to you in a word The Scripture we owne as our onely Rule and Judge in matters of faith and we owne no interpretation of Scripture nor desire others to owne any but such as hold proportion with other Scriptures and such interpretations and deductions are so far infallible as they do necessarily agree to them or follow from them But say you further You have some of you been Teachers in Sect. 73 this Nation ten twenty thirty yeares were those things that you have taught so many yeares together necessarily deduced from Scripture What then If not say you then by your owne confession you have taught falsehood But stay Sir every deduction that is not necessarily drawne from Scripture is not falsehood A true conclusion may have but a probable consequence sometimes to infer it from the premisses It s truth is never the lesse for that but its evidence But suppose we should confesse for once that all which we deduce from Scripture is not true We know not what use you will make of it except this that those that do not alwaies speak truth are not to be thought at any time to do so And if so we know whom this inference will hit as well as our selves What think you of the Apostle Peter whom Paul withstood to his face Gal. 2. 11. for countenancing the false brethren in the Doctrine and practise of the Mosaicall Ordinances among the Gentile Churches and compelling the Gentiles to live as the Jewes was he never in the right or not to be beleived to be so because he was then in the wrong Nay doth not God himselfe suppose a possibility of being deceived in the best of his Ministers when he bids hearers prove all things 1 Thes 5. 21. and commends the Beroeans for searching the Scriptures whether the things that Paul and Silas preached were so or no Act. 17. 11. We suppose that no godly Minister will preach that which he knowes to be false But if without his knowledge yea or with his knowledge any one should do so it is the hearers fault if he be deceived thereby because he hath a certain rule whereby to examine what he teacheth and we professe we desire no further to be credited then the Scripture will beare us out in what we say But suppose there be some of us possibly to be found who Sect. 74 will justifie all that they have preached for so long time to be truth necessarily deduced from Scripture What of that Why then say you all that is so taught is infallible True And what then Forsooth then you add why do you not then adjoyn all your Sermons to the Scripture for if necessarily deduced from Scripture they are Scripture and a part of the Saints rule And so you go on it would become so voluminous a Book that many poore Soules Estates would not buy a Bible We shall give you a breif account why we do not if it may do you service And that is because we do not judge our selves so immediatly inspired in our Sermons although we deliver the same truths the holy Pen-men of God were in penning of the Scriptures The sacred Writers of Scripture did not onely write the things they left upon record to the Church by immediate inspiration but the words and phrases in which they expressed them Whereas the best Ministers that since have been have been faine to expresse those truths in notions and tearmes of their owne yea and the Apostles themselves in their popular Sermons And therefore we suppose the H. Ghost thought not fit to record all the popular Sermons which were preached by the Apostles themselves but only appointed them to draw up the summe of the Doctrine they generally taught in expressions of their owne into a forme of sound words of his owne inspiration to be a Standard of Doctrine and expression to succeeding ages And yet supposing the Apostles alwaies preached as they Sect. 75 wrote by immediate inspiration as to matter and forme then we ask you Why they did not bind up all their Sermons with the Canonicall Scriptures seeing all they taught was infallible Whatever you answer hereunto will be applied to our case But we suppose John gives you a sufficient reason in the close of his Gospel There are many other things saith he which Jesus Jo. 21. 25. did which if they should be written every one I suppose that even the World it selfe would not containe the Bookes that should be written So that God therefore thought fit to keep from after Ages part of the History of Christ that the Bible might not be too voluminous And we hope the same reason will serve for us if we do not bind up our necessary and infallible deductions with the Bible In a word this question is proposed with no greater measure Sect. 76 of discretion then if you should ask Whether all the Bushells and Yards and Pints in every mans house or shop in Bristoll be exact measure or no If all say yee then you further enquire Why they do not all bring them into the Market-house or publick place appointed for that purpose and chaine them all to the common Standard seeing they are all alike exact with it Surely to such a wise question the answer will be easie Viz. Because one publick Standard is enough to measure private Measures by and the severall Tradesmen according to their severall imployments having once had their private Measures tryed by that can make profitable use of them at home We shall leave you to make the application to the Question in hand But before we dismisse this captious Argument of yours Sect. 77 you shall give us leave to retort it upon you and then see whether you can give a wiser answer to your owne question in your owne case then we have done in ours We ask therefore Is all that George Fox James Nayler or your selfe teach write and pronounce as from God For from Scripture you will not say you speak seeing that it is not your rule of Doctrine necessarily true or no If not then by your owne confession you have if your owne Argument be good taught falsehood if so then all you and they have taught is infallible for you say it is dictated by the same Spirit that indited the Scriptures and so equall to them your Epistles are as good as St. Pauls is before-said by some of you And then why do you not adjoyne all your Preachments and