Selected quad for the lemma: book_n
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A19856
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The replie of Iohn Darrell, to the answer of Iohn Deacon, and Iohn Walker, concerning the doctrine of the possession and dispossession of demoniakes
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Darrel, John, b. ca. 1562.
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1602
(1602)
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STC 6284; ESTC S109294
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61,620
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110
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yet they feele no paines at all Yet I doubt not but that Satan can jo order the matter as that the Possessed shall haue paine when he shall see it serue for his purpose c. By which I shewe there is â—ag 48. not one vniforme order to be expected in these cases which varietie of affliction these men would draw to inconstancie of opinion You condemne me also for thinking The Scripture signes are not recorded onely as matter of fact but partly to helpe vs in discorning of possessions Mar. 9. 21. I ground my reason on the question of our Sauiour How long time is it he hath beene thus You answere Christ respecteth in this question onely the first time of that accident And I reply you respect in this answer how to trifle off any thing obâ—ected against you with foolish words without any substance at all Doth not our Sauiour loyne together with the time the maner and forme of his handling Doth he not enquire as well of the one as of the other We must haue a question of time without any subiect matter or reference to any thing Miraculous Answerers which can measure time without any standard laid vnto it You charge me with foisting in words into the text for aduantage but it is your owne mouthes which runne pag. 49. ouer with the word Essentially and not any addition of mine I content my selfe with the phrase of the holy Ghost reiecting these tearmes as needlesse and superfluous Though wheresoeuer the diuel is this speech properly vnderstood as it is vsually in the matter of Possession there must also his spiritual essence be That which you thinke is more then the text is onely added to paraphrase it and though these words In him be not in this Scripture yet are they else where vsed in like case you are very hungry which would leap Act. 19 1 at so small a morsell Whether there be a medicine or no for curing Essentiall possession you yay we shall see after in handl ng that joint and I am content to refer pag 50. 51 52. it thither As for speedie deliuer aâ—â—ee of the afflicted I acknowledge it is no argument of possession and I thanke you for reprouing it though of my selfe I would be ready to retract anie thing dissonant from the truth It is not my desire any my stubble should bee layd vpon the foundation but I am coÌ„tent the fire of Gods word should consume it I alleaging those words of the law That the Lord will bring vpon Deut. 28. 6 pag. 53. Râ—uel 22. 1 transgrâ—ssâ—â—â— euâ—ry â—â—cknâ—sse and euery plague which is not written in the booke of the Law vntill they be destroyed And also that of Saint Iohn He that shall adde vnto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke to proue that men may now be possessed you answere I abuse the Scripture making Possession sametimes written sometimes vnwritten But you abuse your selues and your Reader to iangle about that which euerie childe might teach you For who knowes not that some thinges might bee vnwritten in the Law that be very frequent in the Gospel as indeed Possession is But to answer my argument out of these places you denie pag. 53. Essentiall possession to be decrced in God his eternall counsell for a iudgement That Possession is essentiall we haue sufficiently proued in suruey of your Discourses That it is decreed for a iudgement may appeare to any not wilfully blind by those manifolde examples of men possessed in the Scriptures Except those things hapned beside the decree of God or else those possessions were rewards and benefits not iudgements and afflictions It may be your impudent vaine will not sticke to admit either though none can avouch the first but Atheists nor the second but only men that are mad I haue shewed in your Discourses how the Lords iudgements are perpetuall though not inflicted euerie moment but after such intermission as pleaseth him Is it not then excellent stuffe you bring That the iudgements of this life for we speake only of them cannot perpetually pag. 54. bee inflicted but salvation must needs be barred from all in Christ In like maner because I say Possession is but a conditionall and temporall iudgement you therefore interre It is not perpetuall Wâ—ere you play with the wordâ— meaning perpetuall a continued connexion such as nothing may be put betweene when as that is vsually said to bee perpetuall which is common to all ages though it appeare but now â—ag 55. and then You charge me with disputing from May be to a being in deed May not I wel dispute It may be wheÌ„ you would euerie where maintaine It cannot bee How can a being indeede bee concluded before it be manifest the same thing May be If the heauens therefore fall we shall not onely catch Larks as you say but by catching also of you two we shall catch something that wants braines I affirming There is as great cause of this iudgmeÌ„t now as at any time heretofore you answere It is vâ—tâ—rly vntrue The manifestation of Christs Deitie and the confirmation of his glorious Gospel being the maine causes of possessioÌ„ in Christs time My meaning is as appeareth by my words there is as great cause in respect of sin as much abounding now as euer For I do not compare this cause of punishment with the manifestation of Christ his Deitie And therfore besides the ceasing of the two maine causes you should also haue shewed that sin was ceased or else sinne to be no cause which you purpose to doe in the pag. 56. pages following But in the meane season how doe you flourish it as if I should proudly limit the Lord his times and seasons for inflicting his iudgements I limit no times but leaue it free to the Lord yet knowing the reward of sinne and the ample kingdom it now hath according to the maner of all the Prophets I can do no lesse then expect his fearefull iudgements of what kind so euer But you will pag. 57. 58. proue Possession is no punishment for sinne and that out of the Depth of Divinity Your reason is Afflictions of this life laid vpon the Elect be not properly punishments It is true but what do you lay to this possession of Diuels is an affliction of this life We graunt this too yet so that not onely Possession is an affliction of this life but that there be infinite other miseries and calamities besides What then Shall we now conclude That no miserie or calamitie whatsoeuer as well as this of Possession is any punishment for sinne O deepe Diuinitie and such as hath not beene raised from the bottomlesse pit till now I denie not but the Lord may impose it vpon a man for trial and for other ends as he knowes best but may he not also therfore inflict it as a chastisement for sinne or castigatorie punishment But
facultie First say you it matcheth your pretended miracle with the true miracles of Christ The words of the Epistle speaking to the L. Popham bee these And concerning Epist pag. 4. as highly the glory of Christ our Sauiour as it doth the credit of a faithfull minister Is here any comparison of miracles Is here any meÌ„tion of miracles at all Doth it say any more but this cause being about a worke done in the name of Christ doth as highly concerne Pag. 4. Daâ—râ—ls trial in the Epist pa. 8 his glory as my credit Again say you the prelats are charged with the sin against the Holy Ghost Thus speaketh the Epistle that the prelates which now set themselues against dispossession be guiltie of this vnpardo nable sin I wil not say If I wil not say be I do say theÌ„ the prelats are charged with this sin Out of this branch spring two other That you report the Epistle to labour the L. Chiefe Iustice to recouer himself with speed froÌ„ that fearefull sin wherunto it seemes he is fearefully falling and that he would reuerse iudgement passed against me He which writ the Epistle did not dote as you do to entitle his Honour an vpright and worthy and a righteous iudge to desire and vrge his Lordship to releeuâ— the oppressed innocent specially to take to heart the slanders giuen out of the works of God and within a few lines after to place him in the verie brinke of reprobation Neither doth he perswade to a Reuersing of iudgment for there was none passed as the Authour knew well enough but to a second hearing as Felix heard Paul the second time Now then let the Reader tell me if you bee not pithie lyars that can comprehend so many in so little roome For my Detection you charge the Title as vndutifull against her Maiesties iudiciall proceedings for that it is so sharpe against M. Harsnets booke It is more then I knowe or can beleeue that her Maiestie commanded M. Harsnet to write or that her Right Hono. Counsell inioined him so much or that the high CoÌ„mission laid this vpon him It may be if his owne vainglorious humor which euer tooke pleasure to be biting of others did not prick him forward to this busines yet that the B. his maister of his priuat authoritie did set him his taske tosalue this owne credit and of such as had ioined in disgracing the truth But I hope one may repreheÌ„d some priuat actions of the B. without any vndtifulnes to her maiesties proceedings You then are malicious pikthanks which haue nothing in your mouthes but Ad leones ad leones He is not Cesars friend Pag. 5. For the Epistle you charge me with reviling the B. I answere It was not anie contempt or malice towards his person or forgetfulnesse of any dutie to authoritie that moued me to such seueritie as I vsed but onely feare least otherwise I should haue failed in dutie towards God Those which sinne saith the Apostle reproue openly And 1. Tim. 5. 20 Tit. 2. 15. Matth. 3. Matth. 23. reproue with all authoritie And when I heare Iobn Baptist calling the Phariâ—ees Deceiuers and Generations of vipers when I heare our Sauiour most sharply reprouing them by the names of Persecutors serpents generation of vipers the children of hell painted sepulchers and such like And S. Paul speaking to Elymas O full of all subtilty and Act. 13. 9. 10. Philip. 3. 2. Tit. 1 12. 1. King 18 Act. 23. 2. Tim. 4. 17 all mischiefe the child of the diuell and enemy of all righteousnesse calling also false prophets Dogges and the Cretians beasts yea when I heare Eliiah call Ahab the troubler of Israel our Sauiour tearme Herod a foxe Paul entituling Ananias a painted wall and Nero by the name of a Lyon I hese and manie such other places of practise giue me some light for vnderstanding the precept and teach me that albeit in my priuate cause I am to vse all mildenesse and gentlenesse yet when the Lords truth is interessed and slaundered his greate mercie obscured and that of purpose and wilfully neither one Sergius by Elymas hindered but manie thousands turned backe from beleeuing his works from praising him for them and profiting by them in this case the man of authority is no lesse to be stricken with the edge of reproofe then he that is in inferiour place Nay rather the publike person then the priuate man by how much his example is more dangerous either forcing or alluring great multitudes to imbrace his errour And this doth not hinder but with Dauid pag. 6. Stephen and our Sauiour himselfe and all the holy martyrs of God wee should pray for our persecuters and blesse them which curse vs for reproofe and hatred be not necessarily linked together but Reproofe is a notable remedie to preserue from hatred according to that the Lord saith Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy bea rt but Louit 19. 1 thou shalt plainly rebuke thy neighbour and suffer him not to sinne But this is your maner to huddle vp all things in a confused heape together and that which is spoken with certaine prouisoes and limitations to alleage it as a bare and simple commaund Thus much for the Epistles pag. 7. Yet before you come to the Treatise you will admonish the Reader of two cunning sleights of legerdemainc practised by me throughout that my Pamphlet whereof the first is That I haue slily ouâ—rslipped what is materiall in M. Harsnets Discouery as to make good that distinction of Mirandum Miraculum which he hath dashed to nothing I answere that as becommeth true natural Leopards you cannot change your skinne but you must needs be lying heere as almost euerie where else for I haue replied to M. Harsnet out of Augustine and Danaeus Detection pag. 6. shewing an apparant difference betweene a Wonder and a Miracle And further haue I answered in suruey of your tenth Dialogue from whence I pray you tell M. Harsnet that if he remember the difference betweene Genus and Species he may feele with his finger that a Wonder and a Miracle be not all one And if this will not suffice him demaund of him whether Antichrist by the power of Satan worketh not wonders and whether he esteeme all those wonders to be true miracles And as touching your selues who accord with M. Harsnet herein what say you to these words of your owne The Dialog pag. 209. 310. diuell may worke wonders as Simon Magus hath done but hee can effect no miracles And in another place A thing effected by essentiall meanes howsoeuer it may be a wonder yet no miracle in any respect How can you possibly free your selues here from a contradiction And this is my reply to your first instance Againe say you M. Harsnet accusing verie orderly by Sommers testimony mine owne answers and seuerall depositions this his materiall proceeding is pretermitted with silence What haue I