Saint Iohn saith to all the Christians 1. Iohn 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God By your saying the people should not be able to trie them and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them Pa. What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter and how pretily ye can shift but I wil lay open your subtiltie To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached you alledge the saying of Christ My sheepe heare my voyce c. I pray ye Sir if a man should demand of you whether he meaneth that this shall be immediatly or not and whether when he saith they shal be all taught of God doth he exclude the ministery of men or not I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vtter his doctrine Ye will also say that although God teach yet he doth it by the ministery of men Then I answer that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope who is their great shepheard vnder Christ God doth teach them by him they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination of themselues they cannot iudge but they must doe it by him he must tell them which is the woolfe and which is the false Prophet they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit or which spirit is of God but as he doth direct them And for this cause we say still that ye haue not the true Catholike faith nor the scriptures on your side nor the true sense because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them Pro. All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate immediate But I pray ye Sir how doth this hang together the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men therefore the way to know it is by men God teacheth by men therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men or if it be so must this needs follow that the Pope his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed This is a strange thing Christ Iesus S. Paule S. Peter S. Iohn others do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them as you say is to hang vpon the Pope yet none of all these or any other hath so much as once noted it or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be safe in so extreame danger Pa. There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so for they taught them this thing or how can you tell they did not they might though it be not written is all written which they did teach Pro. Here is mighty strong geare this were able to set vp a Pope if he were thrown down to reuiue him againe if he were hanged No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell the people that the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē because there was no need so long as they liued this were somwhat if they had told only of the false teachers of their time but when they foretel the great dangers mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same this were very absurd Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus that he did know that after his departure there shold enter in grieuous wolues not sparing the flock there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things and draw disciples after thē yet he speaketh of no remedy but that which was banished in your Church namely careful diligēt teaching for he saith therfore watch be mindful c. S. Peter saith as there were in times past false prophets amōg the people so shal there be false teachers amōg you 2. Pet. 2. and afterward he sheweth this remedy not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire or successor but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes and by the Apostles of Christ Saint Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. little children it is the last houre ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come I say there are already many Antichristes in the world and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger but saith he you haue receiued an annointing what from the Pope or his greasie oyle no but from the holy one and know all things Againe ye neede not saith he that any man teach ye but as the annoynting do teach ye Christ Iesus foretelleth Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets and do such wonders that if it were possible euen the elect should be deceiued but that as his words do most plainely shew is vnpossible and why doth he say because I will leaue a vicar and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe not so but because God hath chosen them for he doth keepe them Iohn 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand He saith in another place Beware of false Prophetes which come vnto you in shéepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues and whereby shall men know them Math. 7. He sayeth by their fruits But how know we whether he did tell them so or not he might though it be not written alacke alacke Pa. I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cōmitted to writing but let that go it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue which haue denied the faith and despise the Catholike Church Pro. The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions which S. Peter did not put in writing but he hath whosoeuer doth not beleeue these hath denied the faith dispiseth the Catholike Church This is not your best way your best way is to stand to this that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God But I am content to let this go also and to returne to that which we had in hand and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine I will demaund a question or two at your hands Was there not a Church in the world before the cōming of Christ Pa. Who doth deny that the Iewes were the Church and people of God Pro. Then tell me further whether had they the word of God or not to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon Pa. They had the bookes of Moses they had the bookes of the Prophets they were bidden to heare them Pro. Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto
onely law-giuer Thus ye would bleare the eyes of the ignorant to make them beléeue that the Pope doth make lawes as Moses did But I will shew a difference Moses gaue no lawes nor any of the Apostles but such as they receiued from GOD. They neuer challenged authoritie for to make any law contrary to any part of the word of God nor to abrogate any of the lawes of God For S. Paul saith Galath 1. that if he or an Angell frō heauen should preach any other Gospell then that he had preached let him be accursed Such was the authoritie of Gods worde that if either Paul or Moses or any other which brought it should alter adde to it or diminish the same he should be accursed And yet the Pope doth take power to make lawes contrary to the lawes of the word of God to dispense with the same to disanull what hee will and which is most blasphemous of all to affirme that the holie Scriptures haue no authoritie without him but are of themselues dead can haue no certaintie Is not this to make himselfe God or equall with God What is there which hath authoritie ouer Gods word but God Who doth not here espie the very hornes of the diuell péep vp and speake these things out of the mouth of his vicar Antichrist They do al forsake God and worship the beast which giue him this authoritie Pa. I will not denie but that he which doth set vp lawes contrary to Gods lawes maketh himselfe God euen as a subiect which taketh vpon him to make lawes and to refuse the lawes of the Prince maketh himselfe as it were a king But I say the Bishop of Rome doth not so for he hath the holie Ghost and cannot erre And so when he doth forgiue sinnes he doth no more then is warranted by the word and in very deede which ye take vpon ye to doe Pro. What should I stand to answere bare words wee know the Pope is not led by the holy Ghost but by the lying spirit of the diuel because he hath so flatly troden downe Gods word and brought in his owne lawes in stead of it I will not stand to recite particulars all the world may iudge And whereas ye say he doth not forgiue sins but as we doe take vpon vs that is but a shift which ye haue deuised for all that will may see whether this bee all one to pronounce remission of sins to the penitent which we do and to send forth pardōs whereby for ten shilling matter a man might not onely haue forgiuenes of his sins past but libertie for a good time after to commit many sinnes If this be not the man of sinne where shall we finde him Who doth take vpon him to bee God if he do not which for money will forgiue a man whatsoeuer he doth commit against God Shall a rotten stinking carrion thus blaspheme and men not espie that hee is the great Antichrist I haue now shewed yée how the Pope boasteth himself to be God but I dare not say you will recant Pa. When I see matter which may force me to recant I will do it but for ought that I see brought to the purpose to proue that which you promised there is cause rather why you should recant and renounce your errors and returne againe to the holy mother which is ready to receiue those that returne to her how vnkindly soeuer they haue behaued themselues toward her Pro. The diuelish strumpet is almost left desolate and therefore she laboureth to draw as many as she can and to entice them to her loue faire and foule tag and mag all are welcome none come amisse now Murtherers whoremasters whores bawdes drunkards and all such like if they will take her for their mother she is not ashamed to take them for her children and to make them partakers of her holinesse But let vs come againe to the matter Saint Paul in the same chapter sayth That Antichrist should come with lying signes and wonders and so is it also expressed in the Reuelation that the beast should that way seduce and deceiue the inhabitants of the earth If this be not fulfilled in the kingdome of the Pope how shall it euer bee fulfilled or where shall wee looke for it What hath béen all your outcries but myracles myracles Let a man reade your Legenda Aurea and festiuall and such other pure bookes what shall he finde but myracle vpon myracle and so true that if a man would lye for the whetstone hee may there store himselfe if hee will haue a whole bundle The people did beléeue them for why the Scripture saith 2. Thess 2. GOD should send them strong delusion to beléeue lyes I dare say boldly that although you Papists a great nūber of ye haue put on impudent and shamelesse faces to maintaine lyes yet there is not one of ye but wil blush if he should take vpon him to defend that stinking puddle of lyes and fained wonders which ye fed the common people withal A man may be ashamed to recite them least those which know not the matter should thinke he doth lie Pa. What way can you proue that the myracles of the Church were false and counterfeit Will you take vpon ye to condemne such things as were done long since If there bee some things written which might wel enough be left out is the Church to be charged with that which euery particular man doth There were abuses crept in which the Bishop himselfe did not know of Is it reason he should be blamed Pro. I thinke no wise man will doubt but that this is a sufficient proofe that your myracles were but iugling casts in the darke because ye had such store then haue none now alas there is as great néede now as euer there was And if there bee but one myracle left in your budget pull it forth and let vs see it that we may giue some credit vnto ye Nay your mother had no good counsell giuen her when she had such plentie to spend it so wastfully as she did and to kéepe none for a deare yeare I wisse a few of those great wonders which shée shewed in time past would now stand her in great stead Pa. Mocke on take your pleasure there is none to controule ye VVhat though there be neede at this time yet the world is vnworthie euen as Christ said to the Pharisies when they required a signe Matth. 19. This euill and adulterous generation seeketh a signe but there shall no signe be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the Prophet Euen so what reason is it that the holy mother should shew any wonders and myracles vnto you which are worse then the Pharisies Pro. Alacke good old mother she hath néede as much as euer she had to shew her cunning but the world is not worthie Although shée might winne great credit by it yet she had rather kéepe a good conscience And therefore
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the