better and acknowledge your error Phi. When you proue that we may do this which will neuer be Theo. Marke first what we reath and next what we proue that you be not deceaued Wee teach that God in deliuering the sworde to Princes hath giuen them this direct charge to prouide that as well true religion be maintayned in their Realmes as ciuil iustice ministred and hath to this end allowed Princes ful power to forbid preuent and punish in all their subiects be they laymen Clercks or Bishops not only murders thefts adulteries periuries and such like breaches of the seconde table but also schismes heresies Idolatries and all other offences against the first table pertayning onely to the seruice of God and matters of religion Wee doe not imagine this of our owne heades we find it annexed to the crowne by God himself who when he first gaue the children of Israel leaue to choose them a king withall appointed that the Law truely copied out of the Leuites original which was kept in the tabernacle should be deliuered the king sitting on his royal seate with this charge That booke shall remaine with the king he shall reade in it all the dayes of his life that he may learne to feare the Lord his God obserue all the wordes of the law there written and these statutes to do them This was not doone till he was placed in his throne so sayth the text therefore this touched not the kings priuate conuersation as a man but his Princely function as a magistrate which will you nill you stood in cōmaūding others not in guiding his own person For no man is a king in respect of himself but in ruling his subiects As a man he serued God one way sayth Austen as a king an other way As a mā by faythful lyuing as a king in setting forth lawes to cōmaund that which is good and remoue the contrarie So that kings as kings serue God in doing that for his seruice which none but kings can do Then if the whole Law were cōmitted to the king as a king at his coronation that is to cōmaund it others which none but kings could doe within their Realmes ergo the publishing preseruing and executing of the first table touching the sincere worship of God was the chiefest part of the Princes charge To make my cōclusion the stronger let vs see what the godly kings of Israell Iudah did in matters of religiō hauing no farther nor other cōmission frō God than this which I last repeated The diligēt executiō of their office wil serue for an euidēt expositiō what God required at their hānds We cā look for no plainer declaratiō of Gods meaning in this point thā Gods own cōmendatiō of their acts in this case The lawmaker is the best interpreter if they by their princly power remoued idols razed hilalters slue false prophets purged the land frō al abominations not sparing the brasen serpent made by Moses whē they saw it abused if again by the same power they caused the tēple to be clensed the law to be read the couenant to be renued with God the passouer to be kept the Leuits to minister in their courses inuēted by Dauid if to conclude the prince deposed the chiefe bishop placing a fitter in his steed forced al prophets priests people that were found in Israel sincerely to serue the Lord their God if I say they did al this as the scripture beareth record they did their zealous proceedings in these cases were liked accepted praised by Gods own mouth who besides Iesuits is either so blind that he seeth not or so froward that he confesseth not that princes were charged by God himselfe to plant establish his true seruice in their dominions with their Princely power to prohibite punish all offences abuses be they temporal or spiritual against the second or first part of this heauenly law Phi. This charge concerned none but the kings of Israell Iudah The. That refuge doth rather manifest your folly thā satisfie my reason did I pray you Sir the cōming of Christ abolish the vocatiō of princes I tro not Thē their office remaining as before per cōsequent both the same precept of God to them stil dureth also the like power to force their subiects to serue God Christ his son standeth in as ful strēgth vnder the gospel as euer it did vnder the law For princes in the new testamēt be Gods ministers to reuēge malefactors as they were in the old the greater the wickednes y◠rather to be punished ergo the greatest as heresies idolatries blasphemies are sonest of al other vices to be repressed by christiā magistrates whose zeal for Christs glory must not decrease Christs care for their scepters being increased and those monuments of former kinges left written for their instructiō Were not this sufficient as in truth it is to refute your euasion yet king Dauid forseeing in spirit the heathē kings would bād thēselues assemble togither against the Lord his Christ extēdeth the same charge to the gētiles which the kings of Iurie receiued before warneth thē al at once Be wife ye kings vnderstād ye iudges of the world serue the Lord. Upon which words S. Aug. inferreth thus Al men ought to serue God in one sort by cōmon cōdition as mē in an other sort by seueral gifts offices by the which som do this some that No priuat person could cōmand idols to be banished clean frō among men which was so long before prophesied Therfore kings besides their duty to serue God common with al other men haue in that they be kings how to serue the Lord in such sort as none can do which are not kings For in this kings in respect they be kings serue the Lord as God by Dauid enioyneth them if in their kingdoms they cōmand that which is good prohibite that which is il not in ciuile affaires only but in matters also concerning diuine religion With this indeuor of christian princes God cōforteth his church by the mouth of Esay Thou shalt suck the brests of princes kings shal be thy foster fathers and Queenes thy nurcing mothers What Esay saith princes shal do that I cōclude princes must do because God would not promise they should vsurp an other mās office but discharge their own Thē if you frō Rhemes or your brethrē frō Rome tel vs y◠the nurcing of christs church is no part of the princes duty we detest your insolēt negatiue God is truth who saith it you be liars If you take the milke of princes for tēporal honors lāds goods which your church in deed hath greedily swallowed the very children wil laugh you to skorne The church of Christ is no wāton she lusteth for no worldly wealth which is rather hurtful poison than holsom food Gods prouision for hir is spiritual
you not answere Amen and saying so with a loud voice do you not signe your selues in the holie solemnitie at the kinges edict What Moses Iosua Dauid Salomon Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Manasses Iosias Nehemias did for the planting preseruing and purging of true religion and how they commaunded reproued and punished as well Priestes as others for spirituall crimes and causes the places are infinite and witnessed in no worse recordes than the Scriptures themselues I will not touch them all but onely shew that euery one of these in their times raignes medled with Ecclesiasticall men and matters which is the point that you would impugne by your allegations Moses the ciuill Magistrate reproued Aaron the high Priest for making the golden calfe and stamping it to powder cast it into the water that Israell might drinke it and in one daie put three thowsand of them for that idolatrie to the sworde And after the rebellion of Corah when the residue were plagued for murmuring against Moses and Aaron Moses commaunded Aarō to take the censer and stand betweene the liuing and the dead to make attonement for the people And as during life Moses guided ruled them in al things both spiritual and temporal so readie to depart he carefully warned and finally blessed the twelue tribes of Israell Iosua that succeeded him a Prince not a Priest was charged by God to meditate in the booke of the law day night that thou maiest obserue saith God and do according to all that is written therein and the people receiued him with this submission As we obeied Moses in all things so will we obey thee Whosoeuer shall rebell against thy commaundement and will not obey thy wordes in all that thou commandest him let him be put to death And least you should thinke that he commaunded in nothing but temporall matters he circumcised the sonnes of Israell erected an Altar of stone for their offerings read the whole law to them there was not a word of all that Moses commaunded which Iosua read not before all the congregation searched and punished the concealer of thinges dedicated to idols not long before he died in his owne person renewed the couenant betweene God and the people caused them to put away the strange Gods that were among them insomuch that by his diligent care and good regiment Israell serued the Lord all the dayes of Iosua How far king Dauid medled with matters of religion if the Psalmes which he made for Asaph and his brethren to sing in assemblies and order which hee set for the whole seruice of the Temple appointing the Priestes Leuites Singers and other Seruitours of the church their dignities courses and offices did not declare the charge which he gaue to king Salomon his sonne and the praise which he gate at Gods handes for the faithfull execution and religious obseruation of his law giuen by Moses in all thinges and causes both spirituall and temporall are sufficient euidence Take heede to the charge of the Lord thy God saith Dauid to Salomon to walke in his waies and keepe his statutes his commaundementes and his iudgementes and his testimonies as it is written in the law of Moses This God himselfe repeated to Salomō proposing Dauid his father for a paterne vnto him If thou wilt walke before me as Dauid thy father walked in purenesse of heart and vprightnes to doe according to all that I haue commaunded thee and keepe my statutes and my iudgementes I will establish the throne of thy kingdom vpon Israell for euer Phi. Do these wordes proue that Dauid did or Salomon might medle with Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. These places and such like doe fully proue that the Kinges and Gouernours of Israell and Iudah were appointed by God himselfe to haue the custodie charge and ouersight of all thinges mentioned and expressed in Moses law Here you see the wordes are to do according to all that I haue commaunded thee and keepe my statutes and iudgementes To Iosua God saide that thou maiest obserue and doe according to all that is written in the booke of the Law and likewise of the king in generall The booke of the Law shall be with him and he shal read therein all the daies of his life that he may learne to keepe all the wordes of this Law and these ordinances to fulfill them The king was charged with all the wordes and ordinances of Moses Law the law of Moses contained al thinges which God required of Priestes or people both spirituall and temporall ergo the king was charged by God himselfe as well with all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as with Temporall And consequently Dauid and all other kinges that discharged their duties to God in such sort as hee inioyned them medled with all thinges and causes Ecclesiasticall and Temporall Phi. Frame your argument shorter Theo. They were charged with all ergo they should medle with all and some discharged their dueties to God for example such as were commended and fauored by God whom I before named ergo some did medle with al the preceptes of God both Ecclesiastical and Temporall Phi. They were charged to obserue the whole Law as all other men were Theo. They were charged for their owne persons as all priuate men were but as kinges they were charged for others in such manner as no subiect coulde be charged namely to see the lawe of God to be publikely receiued fully obserued within their Realmes and all other sortes of Religion and policie to bee cleane forbidden and banished Phi. This is your surmise Theo. It is S. Augustines maine collection in sundrie places fet from the verie Principles of reason and nature and confirmed by the warrant of the sacred Scriptures The king serueth God saith Saint Augustine As a man one waie as a king an other way As a man by liuing faithfully as a king by makeing Lawes with conuenient vigor to commaund that which is right forbid the contrarie And againe Kinges euen in that they be kinges haue to serue the Lord in such sort as none can do which are not kinges For kings in respect as they be kinges serue the Lord if in their kingdomes they cōmaund that which is good and forbid that which is euill How then saith he do kinges serue the Lord but by forbidding and punishing with a religious seueritie those thinges that are done against the commaundementes of the Lord And thus much the verie deriuation of the name doth inferre Rex à regendo dicitur a king is he that ruleth others and the relation of the worde doth teach vs there can be no king but in respect of his subiectes and his duetie towardes them is to direct and correct that is to commaund and punish in all thinges needefull Phi. What conclude you of all this Theo. That where God chargeth the king to keepe and obserue
of the cause and we bring Tertullian not to commend Montanus error but to shewe what the Bishoppe of Rome did Phi. He beganne to like them but it tooke not effect Theo. Hee wrate letters of peace to the Montanists and sent them away which is enough to conuince that he erred though hee after relented from his former enterprise How Mercellinus Bishoppe of Rome sacrificed vnto Idols and denyed it when it was obiected to him and was after reproued by sufficient witnesse and condemned for it the Synod extant in your first booke of councels doth declare and Damasus writing the liues of his predecessours doth testifie the same Phi. Hee fell in persecution but he repented after and suffered for Christ as Peter did Theo. And therefore the Bishoppe of Rome may fall from the faith for so did Peter and Marcellinus but whether he shal be renewed by repentance as they were that is neither knowne to you nor beleeued of vs. Phi. We care not if they fall so they rise againe Theo. We proue they may fal Proue you they shall not choose but rise againe Phi. They haue all done so that yet are mentioned and so did Liberius whō I knowe you will name next although wee may worthily doubt whether euer hee fell or no. Theo. You and your fellowes make a doubt of it but I see no reason why you should For it is confirmed by many sounde and sufficient witnesses who both for the time when and place where they liued did and might best know the trueth of that matter Phi. Ruffinus doubteth of it Theodoretus denyeth it and Socrates inclineth rather to vs than otherwise Theo. Ruffinus sayth whether it were so or no pro certo compertum non habeo I know not for a certaintie Socrates maketh neither with it nor against it but passeth it ouer with silence And so doth Theodorete onely hee sayth the Emperour at the supplication of the Gentlewomen of Rome Flecti se passus iussit optimum quidem Liberium de exilio reuocari Suffering him self to be intreated commaunded the good bishop Liberius to bee called from banishment But this excludeth not his subscription before hee receiued his place which Sozomene writeth The Emperour at the intercession of the West Bishoppes recalleth Liberius from Beroea whither hee was banished and assembling the Bishoppes that were in his tents compelleth him to confesse the sonne of God not to bee of the same substance with his father Basilius Eustathius and Eleusius induced Liberius to consent by this meanes that some vnder the colour of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did labour secretly to confirme heresie When this was done the Emperour gaue him leaue to go to his Bishopricke Phi. Will you beleeue Sozomene before the rest that report no such thing Theo. Their silence doth not preiudice his Storie And yet Sozomene is not the first author of this report Athanasius who liued in the same age with Liberius and for whose cause Liberius was banished therefore woulde say no more than truth by him witnesseth no lesse Liberius post exactum in exilio biennium inflexus est minisque mortis ad subscriptionem inductus est Liberius after two yeres spent in banishment inclined by feare of death was induced to subscribe Damasus that was Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius and therfore could not be ignorant of the trueth and woulde not belie his owne See saith of him Ingressus Liberius in vrbem Roman◠4. nonas Augusti consensit Constantio haeretico Non tamen rebaptizatus est sed consensum praebuit Liberius entering the citie of Rome the 4. of the nones of August consented to Constantius the heretike He was not rebaptized but hee gaue his consent Hierom brought vp at Rome in the time of Liberius and after so neere Damasus that hee was his right hand in answering all Synodal consultations and in that respect had often and easie accesse to the Recordes and monuments of the Church of Rome writeth of Fortunatianus Bishoppe of Aquileia In hoc habetur detestabilis quod Liberium Romanae vrbis Episcopum pro fide ad exilium pergentē primus solicitauit ac fregit ad subscriptionem hareseos compulit In this he is coūted detestable that he first attempted Liberius the Bishoppe of Rome going into banishment for the fayth and preuayled with him and gate him to subscribe to the Arrian heresie In his addition to Eusebius Chronicle hee saith as much Liberius taedi◠victus exilij in haereticam prauitatem subscribens Romā quasi victor intrauerat Liberius wearied with his banishment and subscribing to hereticall prauitie had entered Rome as a conquerour We aske not what authoritie you haue to counteruaile these wee knowe you haue none but what reason haue you to resist these Phi. The rest agree not with them Theo. Omission in one writer is no good argument against an other foure affirme it and euery one of thē elder and likelier to come by the trueth than Theodorete yet Theodorete doth not gainsay but only ouerskip the fact If therefore to claw the Bishoppe of Rome you refuse the consent of Athanasius Hierom Damasus and Sozomene you doe but discouer your follie to the wiser sort and hazard your credite with the simple If you receiue their testimonie touching this fact then is there no doubt but the Bishop of Rome subscribed vnto Arianisme and whether hee repented or no wee may worthily doubt since your owne Stories auouch the contrarie Phi. Which of our Stories Theo. Martinus Polonus Vincentius and others Martinus saith Constantius recalled Liberius from banishment because he had agreed to him and to the Arians and placed him againe in his Seate and so vnhappie Liberius held the Church of Peter sixe yeeres by violence then was the persecution great in the citie in so much that the Clergie men which were against Liberius were Martyred then also Eusebius a Priest suffered death for declaring Liberius to be an heretike And Damasus when he came to the Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius with open voyce condemned Liberius and all his acts Phi. I beleeue neither Vincentius nor Martinus in this case Theo. Your not beleeuing them sheweth your selfe to be partial not their report to be false Phi. Liberius surely continued not an Arrian Theo. That he subscribed to the Arrians we proue that he recanted his subscription you can not proue Phi. No doubt he did it though it bee not written Theo. So you presume though you want all proofe for it Phi. Neuer Bishoppe of Rome died an heretike Theo. What did Honorius whom the sixt generall Councell condemned and accursed after his death for heresie Phi. That Councel is shamefully corrupted by the Grecians Theo. If the Grecians copies did differ from yours you had some reason to charge thē with corruption but since your copies confesse the same howe could the Grecians inuade your libraries without your knowledge and raze
Pastours and prophetes of the primatiue church in their publike praiers and exhortations and called it a confusion and resembled it to our babling in the church at this day which you thinke to be very disordered Phi. I see no proofe that the Pastours of the Church in the Apostles time made their publike prayers as you say by miraculous instinct of the spirite Theoph. Doe but open your eyes when you reade this chapter and you can not choose but see it Both this and the twelfth chapter treate wholy of the gifts of the spirite Where you finde that to one was giuen by the spirit the word of wisedome to an other the word of knowledge to an other fayth to an other giftes of healing by the same spirite to an other operation of wonders to an other prophesie to an other discerning of spirites to an other diuersities of toungs to an other interpretation of toungs Phi. Here is not the gift of praier numbred amongest them Theo. But in the fourteenth it is where shewing them how they should behaue themselues in the Church when the congregation was assembled he laieth this downe as a rule for them to follow I will pray with thee spirite but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirite but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Else when thou blessest with the spirite how shal he that occupieth the room of the simple or common person say Amen at the giuing of thanks seeing he knoweth not what thou saiest To pray sing and blesse with the spirite in this place can bee nothing else but to be guided and led by the spirit in their praiers Psalmes thanks as they were in their doctrines interpretations exhortations which was by miracle on the suddain not by learning or study This was done in the church whē al the faithful were present to these praiers psalms thāksgiuings the people were to say Amen as the Apostle sheweth which is the ende signe and proofe of publike prayer among christians What is church seruice if this be not or what other Seruice could the Church haue besides hearing the word and offering their common supplications vnto God by the mouth of one man the rest vnderstanding what he said and confirming his praier with saying Amen Phi. The Apostle speaketh of one man supplying the place of the vulgar and you stretch it to the whole people Theo. If the praiers of the Church concerned some of the people and not all you might make that obiection with some shew but now it hath no color when S. Paul asketh How shal the simple man say Amen he meaneth not this or that man but any or euery And so the indefinite signifieth generally throughout the Scripture Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth no sinne that is Blessed is euery man to whom the Lord imputeth no sin Cursed be the man that obserueth not all the workes of the Law to doe them that is by S. Pauls owne exposition Cursed is euery man that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the Lawe to doe them The whole Scripture is full of the like And therefore Chrysostome noteth Indoctum promiscuam plebem vocat monstratque non leue incommodum esse si Amen dicere non possit The vnlearned he calleth the vulgar people and declareth it to be no smale inconuenience if they cannot say Amen Phi. I see they did praie sing and blesse with the spirite and that the people said Amen but had they no speciall nor vsuall praiers reserued for the ministration of the Sacrament which might not be varied Theo. You think belike they had your Introite Grail Tract Sequēce Offertorie Secrets Postcommunion Pax and Ite missa est Phi. Sure they had some precise forme of seruice though we know it not Theo. And since you knowe it not why should you make it the anker hold of all your exposition vpon S. Paul Phi. Had they no order for their seruice Theo. What a stirre here is for that which the Apostles neuer did Had they set an order for the seruice of the Church durst any man after haue broken it Phi. S. Iames masse is yet extant Theo. And so are a number of other foolish forgeries as wel as that Phi. Do you think it forged Theo. Which of S. Iames masses do you meane Phi. There are not so many that you should aske which Theo. Two there are vnder his name the one nothing like the other yet both fathered vpō him Phi. We haue but one and that set in order of church seruice with mutual praiers and answers for Priest and People very perfectly Theo. And the other you shall find in the eight booke of Clemens Apostolike constitutions where the fourteene Apostles for so you haue increased their number as well as their constitutions take precise order what praiers answers and actions shal be vsed at the mysticall sacrifice their first prescription being this that Two Deacons shal be on both sides of the altar with tuffs of pecocks tails in their hands to driue away gnats left they light in the Chalice a graue consideration for Christs Apostles to meete together to make flappes to catch flies Phi. That I graunt is a matter of smal respect but yet not enough to refute the booke Theo. It is sufficiently refuted in that neither the Church of Christ nor your selues euer esteemed it Had this book beene Authentik it must needs haue beene taken into the canon of the Scriptures For if that which any one Apostle wrate be Canonical much more that which al the Apostles with common consent decreed and ordered Againe had the Apostles prescribed an exact fourme of diuine seruice for the Lords table what man would haue altered it or what Church refused it How would either Basill or Chrysostome haue presumed to make newe formes of Church seruice if those liturgies be theirs not rather forced on thē as this is on the first chiefe Apostles of Christ Why did the Latine Church and the Church of Rome her selfe neglect that seruice if it were Apostolike and preferre the praiers of one Scholasticus as worthier to be said ouer the deuine mysteries the maker being so obscure a man that his name is not knowen in the church of god why were the Bishops of Rome 600. yeares vpward patching piecing the masse before they brought it to any setled forme as your own fellowes confesse and yet then Rome had one forme of seruice Millan an other which they keepe at this day Fraunce a thirde Why did Gregorie when he was consulted by Augustine the monke what forme of diuine seruice he should commēd to the Saxons wil him to bind himselfe neither to Rome nor to any church els but to take from euery place that which he liked best and deliuer that vnto the English To
from shrine to shrine to encrease your offerings which wickednes if S. Hierom had seene in his time he would haue taunted you a litle better than euer he did Vigilantius In the prayers which were made to God at his Altar we graunt with S. Austine The commendation of the dead by the custome of the Vniuersall Church had a speciall place but your prayer for soules in Purgatorie was neuer Catholique And where you send vs to S. Austens Enchiridion ca. 110. for that kind of prayer looke againe to the wordes and you shall find there no certaine doctrine but a doubtfull diuision consisting of three partes and not one of them prouing your Purgatorie When the sacrifices of the Altar or any other almes are offered for all that were baptized before they died for such as are very good they be saith he thankesgiuings to God for those that be not altogether ill they be propitiations that is procuring of mercie for such as be very bad though they be no helpers to the dead they bee some comforts to the liuing and whome they profite they profite them thus farre either to purchase them ful remission or at least more tolerable damnation The first part of this diuision that sacrifices for the dead are thankesgiuings to God is a poynt that now you can not heare of the last that they comfort the liuing but helpe not the dead by no meanes you will admit the middle is it that you stand on and that is nothing but this whom they profit they procure either full remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation Where S. Austen doth not affirme which of the twaine they shall procure but vseth a disiunctiue and of the twaine rather enclineth to the later as the likelier by correcting him selfe in this wise they shall haue remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation And for your better assurance that S. Austen on whom you relie neuer taught your Purgatorie for a matter of Catholique faith we send you back to the same father and the same booke the 69. chapter where he sayth It is not incredible that there is some such thing after this life and whether it be so it may be a question and it may be either found out or lie hid that some of the faithfull obteine saluation by a Purgatorie fire so much the sooner or later by howe much the more or lesse they loued the transitorie goods of this life If it may lie hid then is it no ground of Christian faith which must be fully beleeued of all men neither coulde the prayers of the Church depende vpon the doubtfull opinion of Purgatorie which by S. Austens owne iudgement is superfluous to be discussed and most dangerous to be resolued The rest of your places in this chapter amounting to the number often doe you litle good and vs lesse harme we receiue them without exception or distinction The words of Maximinus the Arrian you wittingly peruert to make them like ours wherein you discouer your malice and touch not our doctrine for Arius as you may reade in that disputation which Athanasius had with him vpbrayded the fathers for vsing the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not found in all the bookes of the new or old testament whereas the Church of Christ alwayes professed to beleeue nothing but what was plainely written in the sacred scriptures The selfe same cauil Maximinus vrged S. Augustine with Hae verò voces quae extra scripturam sunt nullo casu a nobis suscipiuntur These wordes and not as you translate these sayings which are not in the scripture by no meanes we receiue This obiection wee grant was both foolish and hereticall and if wee vrge you with any such spare vs not We striue with you not for names words but for poynts and Principles of faith and those we say must bee proued by the scriptures S. Paul sayd so before vs Faith is by hearing hearing out of the word of God Mauger your traditions and vnwritten verities this is a Christian and Catholique position which all the fathers confirme with one consent as shall be shewed in place conuenient In the meane time wee saie with Basill that I trowe was no Arrian Manifestus est a fide lapsus crimen maximae superbiae vel a scripto recedere vel non scriptum admittere It is a manifest fall from faith and a sinne that argueth infinite pride either to leaue that which is written or admit that which is not written Your sixt chapter handleth no matter of religion as being purposely made to excuse you from Treason and hath nothing in it any way materiall saue onely that vpon the name of Masse-priest you fall into a great rage and will needes proue the Apostles themselues the ancient fathers of all ages were masse priests And that you do ful clarkly For wheresoeuer you find the word oblation or sacrifice in any father you presently put him in the Decke for a masse-Priest I maruaile you be not ashamed professing so deepe knowledge to send vs ouer such vaine trifles The very children in England doe knowe the Lordes supper is a sacrifice of thankesgiuing a memoriall of Christes oblation on the crosse dayly renewing his death in a mysterie which is the true meaning of the twelue places that here you bring and of twelue hundred mo that might be brought to the like effect but this is nothing to the sacrifice of your masse where you professe that Christ is couered with accidents of bread and wine and offered really with your handes to God his father for the remission of your sinnes shewe but one father for this kinde of sacrifice and we will agnise not onely these whome you name but also Melchisedec and Malachie for Masse-priests Searching fiue hundred foure score and thirteene yeres after Christ with al diligence you find the worde Missa twise once in Ambrose and once in Leo and in a brauerie you demaund of vs Were they Masse-priests that sayd those masses But what if the word Missa did then not signifie the Masse but a dismissing of the Catechists before and of the faithful after the Lords supper where is your great and glorious triumphe become Looke to the fourth Counsell of Carthage the 84. Canon Let the Bishop forbid no man to enter the Church and heare the word of God neither Iew Gentile nor heretike vsque ad missam Catechumenorum that is till the Catechists be sent away not vntil the Catechists masse For they which were not yet baptized could not be present at the ministration of the Lords supper therefore Missa doth signifie the dismissing of them as the manner was in the primitiue Church to send away first the Catechists next the Repentants and last of all to giue the faithfull leaue to depart when the communion was ended which three dimissions were sometime called in the plurall number Missae
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
els you make a madde construction But if you meane that Princes should not rule Bishops in ecclesiastical causes iudgements that is not worke them nor force them against the witnes of their heartes and consciences to follow the willes and appetites of Princes as Constantius did by the report of Athanasius in this place then the wordes which you bring be very true but nothing pertinent to this question The ruling then of Bishoppes and sitting as president of ecclesiasticall iudgements which Constantius vsed and Athanasius reproued was nothing elss but a wilfull contempt in himselfe of the faith and Canons of the Church and a furious compulsion of others to make them determine what hee listed and condemne whom him pleased without respect of trueth and against all order of common iustice Phi. This is your gloze which wee doe not beleeue Theo. Your owne witnesses say the same whom you may not well discredite Phi. Which of them Theo. Athanasius and Hilarie Phi. Where say they so Theo. Not farre from the places which your selfe alleage The whole Epistle of Athanasius which you quote is a large repetition of yâ— tirannous words and deedes of Constantius touching causes ecclesiasticall The first booke of Hilarie against Constantius the first I meane as they nowe stande in order though the last in time as they were written doeth handle the same argument Reade either of them you can not choose amisse Let passe the horrible persecution raysed by Constantius wherein the Pagans were set to inuade the Churches of Christians and to beate the people with staues and stones the Bishops Priests and Monkes were bound with chaynes and scourged with roddes the women were haled by the hayre to the iudgement seate the virgins were tosted by the fire and whipped with Prickles others were banished strangled trampled to death vnder feete and their limmes and ioyntes euen torne and rent asunder after they were dead in so much that Athanasius is fayne to crie out who was not amazed at these things who would giue them the name of Ethnicks much lesse of christians who will thinke them to haue the conditions of men and not rather of beastes who perceiued not the Arrians to bee crueller than beasts The straungers standing by yea the Ethnicks detested the Arians as Antichristes and butchers of men O new found heresie which in villanies and impieties hast put on the fulnes of the Diuell howe great so euer hee bee let passe I say these thinges and come to his behauiour in matters and causes ecclesiasticall Paulinus Lucifer and other Bishoppes being called before him the Emperour commaunded them to subscribe against Athanasius and to communicate with the Arrians they marueiling at this strange endeuor answering that the ecclesiastical Canons would not suffer them so to doe hee straightway replied AT QVOD EGO VOLO PRO CANONE SIT ita me loquentem Syriae episcopi sustinent aut ergo obteÌ„perate aut vos quoque exules esrote LET MY WIL BE TAKEN OF YOV FOR A CANON the Bishoppes of Syria content themselues with this speach of mine Therefore doe as I will you or depart into banishment And when the Bishoppes held vp their hands to God and with great libertie proposed their reasons shewing him that the kingdome was not his but Gods of whom he receiued it and that it was to bee feared lest hee that gaue it would speedyly take it from him also setting before him the day of iudgement and aduising him not to subuert ecclesiasticall order nor to mingle the Romane Empire with the constitutions of the Church nor to bring the Arrian heresie into the Church of God he woulde neither heare them nor permit them to speake but greeuously bending his browes for that they had spoken and shaking his sword willed them to be caried away This was Constantius manner in conuenting Bishoppes and thus hee peruerted the fayth and good order of Christes Church vppon a selfe wil subiecting all Lawes both diuine and humane to his eger and erroneous fansie And who seeing him thus to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes president of ecclesiasticall iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that desolation of abomination foretold by Daniel Phi. You put thus to the text which Athanasius hath not Theo. But the right meaning of Athanasius woordes must bee gathered hy that which goeth before and followeth after Intelligentia dictorum sayth Hilarie ex praecedentibus consequentibus expectetur The vnderstanding of any speach must bee taken from the precedents and consequents The conclusion is not proued but by the premisses and therefore must bee measured by the premisses Athanasius bringeth many particulars to shewe in what sort Constantius ouer-ruled the Bishoppes and preferred his owne will before all constitutions and Canons of the Church and then inferreth Who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes and president of ecclesiasticall iudgements in that â—ort as hee doeth would not pronounce him to be Antichrist Now in what sort he did it the whole Epistle besides doeth declare thither must you repaire if you will see howe Constantius behaued himselfe in ecclesiasticall causes and consequently what thinges Athanasius and the rest misliked in him Phi. Howe did Constantius behaue himselfe say you Theo. That is worth the searching By that you shal see what cause Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius had to reproue him Phi. Say no more than you iustly proue Theo. No more shall bee sayde than your owne witnesses report I hope you will take them for direct and true deponents Phi. I doe not mistrust them Theo. Then heare them There were fiue principall points wherein Constantius dealt very intemperately wickedly as the writings of Athanasius and Hilarie doe testifie The often altering of the fayth the wresting from Synodes what hee would the banishing of Bishoppes vpon false accusations the intruding of others in their places against all order and the forcing of all sorts to communicate with the Arrians Of his altering the fayth Hilarie thus complayneth Fayth is come nowe to depend rather on the tyme than on the Gospel Our state is dangerous miserable that we haue nowe as many fayths as wils and as many doctrines as manners whiles faiths are either so written as we list or so vnderstood as we will We make euery yere and euery moneth a faith and still wee seeke a fayth as if there were no faith This O Constantius would I fayne knowe of thee what fayth at length thou beleeuest Thou hast changed so often that now I knowe not thy fayth That is hapned vnto thee which is wont to follow vnskilfull buylders euer disliking their own doings that thou stil pullest downe that which thou art stil setting vp Thou subuertest the olde with newe and the newe thou rentest in sunder with a newer correction and that which was once corrected thou condemnest with a second correction O thou wicked one what a mockerie doest
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
With you but not with the Church of God Phi. The church we say beleeueth many things which shee receiued by tradition and not by writing Theo. Your Church I know doth but the Church of Christ I say neuer did not doth Phi. Had the Church of Christ no traditions that were not written Theo. Rites and ceremonies she had but no points of fayth that were not written Phi. This is the ground of all your errors vppon this pretence you reiect the vnwritten verities of the church Theo. If this bee an error S. Paul himselfe was the first author of it and all the fathers of Christes Church with one consent auouch the same Phi. Neuer tell vs that tale Theo. Yeas we will tell it and proue it to you Phi. You can not Theo. We can and will S. Paul is short but sure Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Whence wee collect ergo faith is by the word of God and not without it nor besâ—des it You heard S. Basils opinion before It is an euident slyding from the faith a point of the greatest pride that may be either to depart from that which is written or to receiue that which is not written To that you may ioyne this conclusion of his If euery thing that is not of fayth be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and fayth come by hearing and hearing by the woorde of God ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the diuine Scriptures because it is not of fayth it is sinne Seekest thou for faith Emperour sayth Hilarie to Constantius Heare it not out of the late scroles but out of Gods bookes Heare I beseech thee that which is written of Christ lest vnder preteÌ„ce therof of things not written bee preached And in an other place pressing his aduersarie Thou sayth he which denyest things written what remaineth but that thou beleeue things vnwritten counting that for a passing absurditie which you now would establish as the surest way to discerne the trueth Euen so doth Hierom against Heluidius As wee denie not those thinges that are written so wee reiect vtterly those thinges which are not written For Our Lord sauiour speaketh to vs in the Scriptures of his Princes that is of his Apostles and Euangelists which were not which are in the church to this end that his Apostles excepted whatsoeuer thing besides should afterward bee sayd might bee cut off and not haue authoritie Tertullian speaking in the person of all christians We neede no farther search after the Gospel When once we beleeue wee desire nothing else to beleeue for this wee first beleeue that there is nothing besides the Gospel which wee ought to beleeue And refelling the heretike Hermogenes I adore saith he the fulnes of the scriptures Let Hermogenes shew me where this that he teacheth is written If it be not writteÌ„ let him feare the curse prouided for adders diminishers Yea saith Ambrose We iustly coÌ„demn al new things which Christ did not teach because to the faithful Christ is the way So then if Christ did not teach that which we teach eueÌ„ we our selues do iudge it to be detestable The rest are of the same mind The disposition of our saluation sayth Irineus we knew by none other than by those by whom the Gospel came vnto vs the which at first they preached by mouth but afterward by Gods appointmeÌ„t they did deliuer it to vs in writing that it should be the foundatioÌ„ and pillour of our faith It is necessary for vs saith Cyril to folow the diuine Scriptures in nothing to go from their prescription The mountaines of Israel whereon God promised to feede his flocke are saith Augustine the writers of the diuine Scriptures Feeding there you feede safely whatsoeuer you learne thence count it sauorie whatsoeuer is besides theÌ„ refuse it Therefore whether it be touching Christ or his Church or any matters els which concerneth our faith life I say not if we but as followeth in Paul if an angel from heauen teach any thing besides that which you haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospel hold him accursed Isidorus as your owne Lawe produceth him saith A Prelate if he teach or bid any thing besides that which is euidently commaunded in the holy scriptures let him be taken for a false witnes to God a coÌ„mitter of sacrilege Neither Prelate Pope Councel nor Angel may be receiued or trusted in matters of fayth I say not against the Scriptures but not without or besides the scriptures If therefore you seeke to leade Princes vnto trueth you must guyde them thereto by the word of trueth otherwise you doe but deceiue them you doe not direct them King Dauid will teach you by what meanes himself was and all other godly Princes ought to be directed Thy word is a lanterne to my feete a light vnto my paths I haue sworne and wil performe it that I wil keepe thy righteous iudgements And God by Moses appointing his law to be the directioÌ„ of Princes coÌ„maundeth a copie thereof to be deliuered vnto the king sitting on his throne that he should reade therein all the daies of his life and learne to feare the Lord his God to keepe al the words of that lawe This charge which God giueth bindeth princes as well as others Whatsoeuer I commaund that shal you do thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And Esay speaketh not of priuate persons only but of common-wealths also when he saith Shoulde not a people consult their God And shewing immediatly which way they might consult and aske counsell of God from the liuing sayth he to the dead to the law rather and the testimonie if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them is the surest way to saue Prince people froÌ„ the place of torment consequently the best direction for theÌ„ both Phi. The word of God is we doubt not the best direction for Princes priuate men if it be rightly vnderstood but Al heresies patch thence the pillowes which they lay vnder the elbowes of all flesh as S. Hierom sayth and They talke of scriptures perswade by Scriptures as Tertullian noteth And therefore the Scriptures being but dumble recordes that may be diuersly construed and easily wrested there must needes bee some iudge on earth that may bee personally pronounce which is the true meaning and right sense of the Scriptures before Princes may trust that direction Otherwise men may brech what blasphemies they will and pretend Scripture when they haue done as the Arrians Sabellians Macedonians and al other heretikes did and do Theo. That heretikes couet a shew of scriptures is a case so cleare that it needeth no words For howe coulde they treate of matters of faith
with armes not to vse targets not to handle speares not to bend bowes not to cast dartes but only to reproue and freely to warne This therefore is no cleare example that Priests may vse armes represse impietie by forcible wayes as you infer but a wicked abusing drawing of the scriptures to serue your warlike dispositions For Gods mans law wil assure you that priests bishops may be no warriers in their owne persons if you regard not that your own law will teach you that no clergie man may put himselfe in armes no not at the commaundement of the Bishop of Rome Pope Iohn saith Tractare de armis terrenae potescatis est To meddle with armes pertayneth to the ciuill power Pope Innocentius saith Christ who was the paterne of al priests forbad carnal weapons to be taken in hand for him A councel at Toledo in Spain Clergie men that in any factiō whatsoeuer wittingly take armes shal loose their degree be thrust in some Abbay for euer An other at Meaux in Fraunce Whatsoeuer they be that be of the clergy let thē take no warlike weapons in hand nor go with armes If they doe let them loose their degree as contemners of the sacred canōs prophaners of ecclesiasticall dignity The full resolution of all these canons by the confession of your law is this Hijs ita respondetur Sacerdotes propria manu arma arripere non debent The meaning of these places is that priests themselues in their own persons should not take weapon You heard before how often S. Paul charged that a Bishop should be no fighter nor striker and that the weapons of their warfare were not carnall and by the Lordes owne voice that he which striketh his fellowe seruauntes shall haue his portion with hypocrites What a desperate conclusion then haue you wrested out of this example against your own canons against the sacred Scriptures that priestes may not onely vse armes and represse impietie by forcible waies but assayle the person of their Soueraigne with open violence which if it were lawfull for them to vse armes as it is for others they might not so much as touch The precept of God is plaine Touch not mine annointed which reacheth to others but chiefly to Princes You may not speake euill of them can it be lawful for you to doe euill To resist them is damnation what is it then with armed violence to oppresse them Dauid was touched in his hart for cutting off the lap of Sauls garmēt you boldly conclude that priests with their own hands may violate the Princes person And where a cursing thought against them is a sinne before God a murdering hand vpon them is a merit by your doctrine Phi. We take our light from this example For here the Priests as the text saith not only resisted but when they saw the king become a leper they expelled him out of the Sāctuarie Theo. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth they caused or gat him to hasten thence but not with violence for the next words shew that he was forced of himself to go foorth because the Lord had strokē him And so the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie the common translation which you call S. Hieroms hath for it Ipse accelerauit egredi he made hast of himselfe to go forth as terrified with the plague which he felt Phi. The Priests seuered him from al companie of men a special figure of the priests power to excommunicate for heresie as wel Princes as others in the new law the regiment of his kingdom was cōmitted to his son The. You promised ful proofes out of the word of God that priests might depose Princes now you come with empty figures of your own applying without truth or coherence Vzziah dwelt apart in an house from others because of his leprosie for so the law of God cōmanded the danger of that disease required but that the Priests seuered him frō al company this is your own making without the booke the text hath no such wordes much lesse do you find in the scriptures that he was depriued of his kingdom Iothan his son gouerned his house iudged the people of the Land because the king himselfe might not be conuersant among men by reason of his sicknes but the crowne still continued in the father though a leper Iothan began not his raign til his father was dead whom the scripture calleth the king of Iudah in the twentie fifth yeare of his raigne and last yere of his life Ph. Whose dutie was it to separate Lepers from sound Persons but only the Priests Theo. The Priests were to discerne who were lepers but the Magistrate was to see thē put apart to keepe them from infecting others The putting lepers asunder from others was first cōmanded to the childrē of Israel by them first executed though the pronoūcing them to be lepers was alwaies reserued to the Priest Phi. And the leprosie of the body resembleth the leprosie of the soule Ergo Priests may separate Princes from the church for heresie apostasie which be the sores of the inward mā as the leprosie is of the outward The. You must proue first before your cōclusion wil follow that lepers by the law of God lost their inheritance which is not true Next that euery Prince sinning must be deposed which is as false For leprosy resembleth not only heresie or apostasie but al kind of iniquitie Ambrose saith Contemptus verbi est lepra mentis the cōtempt of the word is the leprosie of the mind And so Chrysostom The leprosie of the soule which is sinne is onely to be feared And likewise the rest Intelligimus omnes auaros cupidos intus in anima peccati lepra esse perfusos We vnderstād al couetous greedy persōs to be inwardly infected with the leprosie of sinne If the leprosie of the soule be a cause sufficient to remoue princes from their Seates what Prince shal keepe his kingdome or what Bishop his chaire Bee they not all sinners as well Bishops as Princes If you take vpon you the moderation of the matter that all sinnes shall not depriue them of their Crownes but onely heresie then you decide the case like a lord as you list and checke your owne conclusion as pernitious to Popes no lesse than to Princes and wee may iustly reiect it as a figure of your owne framing without probabilitie in the antecedent or necessitie in the consequent Phi. Note the cause why king Vzziah was smitten with the leprosie for presuming to execute the spiritual and Priestly function whereof now you make thē supreme Gouernours Theo. I note it well and when we defend that Princes may preach baptize forgiue sinnes or minister the Lords supper then threaten vs with Vzziahs pride and plague on Gods name In the
the Prophetes of Baal were conuicted to bee but false deceiuers and the whole assemblie fell on their faces and gaue the glorie to GOD and submitted themselues to followe his trueth Elias willed them to take Baals Prophetes and giue them the rewarde that deceiuers by Gods Lawe shoulde haue which was death Phi. This is your enlarging of the text Theo. The bookes of kinges are but short gatherings out of the larger Chronicles that were extant among the Iewes and the manner of the holy Ghost is briefly to touche the chiefest thinges and yet is there none of these partes but may bee plainely prooued by the circumstaunces of the text Phi. Howe prooue you the King consented Theo. The particular speach of no one is reported but the generall consent of the whole companie Where also the king was present is expressed and yet before the multitude was assembled the Kinges consent to Elias offer appeareth in that the king sent vnto all the children of Israel and gathered the Prophetes together for that purpose who woulde otherwise haue despised the message and woorde of Elias Againe the Prophetes of Baal woulde neuer haue ventered their liues vpon a needlesse miracle at Elias pleasure but the King and the whole Realme tied them to that condition vppon daunger else to reiect both them and their profession And lastly howe was it possible for one poore Prophet to catch and kill foure hundred and fiftie so that not a man of them escaped the king and the whole State standing with them Or howe was it lawfull for Elias to spill their bloud in the kinges presence without the kings consent Elias therefore made the motion which the king and the whole Realme there assembled did accept and ratifie with this answere It is well spoken and as hee should haue lost his life if hee had failed so when they fayled hee required iustice to bee done by the king and the Realme on them for that they were clearly conuicted to bee teachers of strange and false Gods Phi. Achab when he came home told Iezabel his wife how Elias had slaine all the Prophets with the sword Theo. Achab wee doubt not excused him selfe and cast the fault as much as hee coulde on Elias that Iezabels Prophets were slaine but this doth not shew that Achab did not consent His woords import that Elias was the procurer causer of their destruction but not the iudge nor officer that put them to death Phi. The Scripture sayth hee slew them Theo. So the Scripture sayth that Solomon buylt GOD an house thinke you therefore that Solomon was a Mason or Carpenter And Ioshua smote the fiue kinges of the Amorites and hanged them on fiue trees did Ioshua therefore play the hangman And king Roboam made shildes of brasse was Roboam therefore a brasse-smith Phi. No they commaunded or caused these thinges to bee done Theo. And so did Elias procure or cause them to bee slaine for in the Scripture the causer procurer and director are sayd to doe the deede though they bee but meanes and helpes to haue it done But what is this to the deposing of Princes Will you reason thus False Prophets may bee put to death my magistrates ergo Princes may bee deposed by priests I thinke you will not for very shame make such childish conclusions Phi. He himselfe slue king Ochasias his Captaines and messengers wasting them and an hundreth of their trayne by fire from heauen Theo. Elias was the speaker of the woorde but God was the doer of the deede and in that case God himselfe slue them and not Elias Phi. Hee called for fire from heauen Theo. Fire from heauen was not in Elias power but in Gods will Neither might Elias had he not been guyded by the speciall instinct of Gods Spirit haue presumed to call for that or any other kinde of reuenge from heauen for that is the manifest tempting of God as our Sauiour warned his Apostles when hee rebuked them for offering to imitate Elias and to call for fire from heauen as he did And sure it is as these thinges were not ordinarie so can you driue them to no conclusion for your purpose nor lay them forth for imitation to any no more than you may warrant men to steale because Israel robbed Egypt by Gods appointment or to perswade any to murder themselues because Samson did the like or teach them to curse kil children because Elizeus handled two and fourtie so that mocked him at Bethel And yet all this while you shew not that Elias so much as touched the king much lesse deposed him which you professe to proue Phi. Elias had commission to annoynt Hazael king of Syria and Iehu king of Israel and so to put downe the sonne and whole house of Achab which thereby lost all the tytle and right to the kingdome for euer Theo. Neither of them was annointed by Elias neither Hazael nor Iehu Elizeus only foretold Hazael that he should be king in Benhadads place His wordes were The Lord hath shewed me that thou shalt be king of Aram This Elizeus spake the day before Benhadad died and other annointing Hazael had none Iehu was indeed annointed by one of the Children of the Prophets whom Elizeus sent and charged by message from God to smite destroy the whole house of Achab his master and so he did For hee slew Ioram the King trod Iesabel vnder his horse feete and caused the seuentie sonnes of Achab that were nourced in Samaria to be slaine and slew all that remained of the house of Achab in Izrael and all that were great with him and his familiars and his Priests so that he let none of his remaine Phi. Then yet here was one king deposed Theo. Here was no king deposed by any Prophet but one slaine by Iehu to whom God gaue the Kingdome of Achab for this intent that he should roote out the whole house and offspring of Achab. Phi. Did Iehu well to kill his master and to take the kingdome from him and his heires Theo. Being expresly commanded thereto by God himselfe he did but his dutie For God may take and giue Kingdomes as hee will though man may not Phi. Authoritie so to doe Iehu receaued from Eliseus Theo. Unsay that for feare least you fal into a malicious and wicked vntruth The Prophet that annointed Iehu beganne his message with Thus saith the Lord God of Israel and not thus saith Elizeus Phi. But Elizeus sent him and gaue him instructions what to doe and what to say Theo. Let that bee so Then Elizeus taught him to doe this errand in Gods name and not in his own and consequently Iehu receiued authoritie from God and not from man Now view your argument God may giue kingdomes to whom he will and appoint the subiect to be the reuenger of his masters sinne ergo the Pope may do the like Be you not
a Prince you shall neuer shewe Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauouring Dauid and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father that saued him aliue and set him in his kingdome Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being high Priest because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salomons Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie and yet was there then as vrgent and as euident cause to do it as you can nowe or doe pretend For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters Iehu himselfe not excepted and yet not one of them deposed by Priest or Prophet so long as their kingdome stoode which was 253. yeeres The greater part of the kinges of Iudah euen foureteene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters as Salomon Roboam Abiam Ioram Ahaziah Ioash Amazias Ahaz Manasses Amon Ioachaz Eliakim Ioacim Zedechias and not a Priest or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace or resist one of them If by Gods Lawe as you suppose the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in princes howe can you excuse the high Priest and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wicked and Idolatrous Princes Phi. The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue Theo. That happilie might hinder the effect but not the attempt of their iudgement We doe not obiect that they were vnable but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it Phi. The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare Theo. That is not true Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them and more it coulde not cost to depose them Againe Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious Idolatrie and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison and sent backe from Babylon It was therefore not for feare of death but for regard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their persons to those wicked Princes whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues Phi. This coâ—dition was afterwarde to bee imâ—lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer videlicet that they should not reduce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers and the religion and holy ceremonies thereof receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other Insinuating that obseâ—uing these precepts and conditions hee and his sonne after him might long reigne Otherwise as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward â—ppeareth whereof we haue set downe some examples before the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Theo. God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king because it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues nor many horses nor abundaunce of golde nor siluer nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these he was to bee deposed The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion but the perfect obseruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king You must bee voyde of all sense if you defend these thinges and yet these bee conditions or as you delight to call them couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and peculiar people The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse The Prophetes and Priestes you say that annointed them of no other coâ—dition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his true worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel or Iudah There were as the Scripture testifieth of the kinges of Israel nineteene and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde and sell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest or Prophete and take the whole if you can not leaue false supposing and vaine craking and tell on your tale Phi. And this it was in the old law But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church Priests haue much more soueraigne authoritie and Princes farre more strict charge to obay loue and cherish the Church Theo. What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene and except I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose In the newe Testament I can assure you you will find lesse Where you say that Priests now in the Church haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous Haue they more or lesse it is nothing to this question Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had nor nowe haue which is it that you seeke for In what sort Princes are bound to loue cherish and obey the Church was declared before and neede not nowe bee repeated But the Church is neither charged nor licenced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection which were very strange And depriuing them of their right is worse than rebelling against theÌ„ to defend your right which yet is not tolerable For he that resisteth them shall receiue iudgement Phi. In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes
persons excōmunicate and consequently your applying of scriptures that wee may not salute them nor keepe companie with them is a violent deprauing of these textes and refuted by the manifest practise of Christes Church And because wee bee come so farre I will adde somewhat touching the rest of your wise pretences Constantius Valens Valentinian the younger Anastasius Iustinian Heraclius Constantine the 4. and others were hereticall Princes Iulian an open Apostata and yet the Church of Christ endured serued and obeyed them not in temporall things only but in ecclesiasticall also so farre as their Lawes did not impugne the faith or corrupt good manners Phi. You inferre vpon our examples which we can auoyde when wee wil but you answere them not Theo. Our illation which you shall neuer auoyd proueth your examples to conclude for vs and not against vs. You shewe that Princes were remoued from the Sacraments which we graunt but that they were remoued from their kingdomes which we denie that you shewe not and so by your silence you confesse that to bee most true which wee affirme that hereticall and excommunicate Princes must haue their due subiection honour and tribute as they had before they fell to such impieties because they bee perils to their soules not forfeytures of their Crownes Other answere we neede not make you since this will suffice And yet if wee would examine your examples by the pole I coulde take many of them tardie A booke written in Chrysostomes name witnesseth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche excluded a Christian Emperour out of the Church for murdering a young Prince committed to him for an hostage and was martyred by the same tyrant for his constancie but this can not stand with the stories of the Church nor with your owne Author whom you alleage for the repentance and submission that you say this Emperour was after brought to by Fabian the generall sheephearde of Christendome Eusebius who wrate an hundreth yeeres before Chrysostome sayth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison vnder Decius an heathen Tyrant After Philip succeeded Decius who for hatred of Philip persecuted the Church in the which persecution Fabianus Bishoppe of Rome was martyred and Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison after the constant confession of his fayth With him agreeth Nicephorus Babylas sub Decio post confessionem fortiter obitam in vinculis discessit Babylas after hee had made a stout confession of his fayth dyed in Prison vnder Decius If hee died vnder Decius howe coulde hee bee slaine by Philippus or Numerius that were before Decius If hee deceased in Prison how can your Chrysostome say that hee was caried out of Prison to his death and slaine Can you reconcile these thinges and not giue one of your Authors the lie If that declamation were Chrysostomes hee wrate it when he came fresh from the Philosophers schooles as both the stile matter argue and before he was Bishoppe as his owne woordes declare For speaking of the place where Babylas was Bishoppe he sayth Nostri huius gregis curam gerebat he was Pastor of this our flocke and Chrysostome was Bishop of Constantinople not of Antioche Who pursued the saide Emperour by like excommunication for killing his Pastor since the Pastor was aliue after the Emperour was dead and died in prison without any violence neither can you tell neither neede wee care Of Philip Nicephorus sayth no such thing in the place which you quote hee repeateth only that which Eusebius long before reported in these words Of Philip the fame is that fauouring Christ and willing the night before Easter to ioyne with the multitude of Christians in their prayers hee was not suffered so to doe by the Bishoppe that then was vnlesse hee would first acknowledge his sinnes and keepe his place with the repentants Otherwise he could not be admitted because his sinnes were many And they say that hee gladly hearkened to the Bishop and shewed his syncere and religious mynde to God-ward by his deedes The ground of the whole in him that first wrate it is but hearesay the principall matter whether the Prince were remooued from the communion or neuer before admitted to the Lordes table very doubtfull The thing required at his handes was no more but to humble himselfe in the sight of God to whome all Princes must stoope with as great deuotion and submission as the poorest woormes that are on earth The conclusion may bee that Princes then were trayned to Godlinesse but that they were depriued of their kingdomes is a wicked and vngodly suggestion of yours Wee may with as good reason say a Frier many tymes doeth shriue the Pope Ergo a Frier may depose the Pope which I thinke your holy Father will not like of Saint Ambrose is the onely example in all antiquitie which fully proueth that a Bishoppe did prohibite a Prince to enter the Church and to bee partaker of the Lordes table which wee neither deny nor dispraise considering the cause and the manner of the fact The Prince for a tumult raysed by some of the inhabitants of Thessalonica caused his souldiers without finding or searching the doers to murder the people were they straungers or Citizens faultlesse or faultie to the number of seuen thousand After this execution at his next comming to the Church S. Ambrose stepped to the Church dore and sayd Thou seemest O Prince not to vnderstand what a monsterous slaughter of people is committed by thee neither doth rage suffer thee to weigh with thy selfe what thou hast done yet must thou know that from dust we came to dust we shal Let not therfore the brightnes of thy robes hide frō thee the weaknes of flesh that is vnder them Thy subiects are of the same metall which thou art serue the same Lord that thou doest With what eyes therefore wilt thou behold the house of this cōmon Lord with what feete wilt thou tread on his holy pauements Wilt thou reach these hāds dropping yet with the blood of innocents to receiue the most sacred bodie of the Lorde Wilt thou put that precious blood of his to thy mouth which in a rage hast spilt so much Christian blood Depart rather and heape not one sinne on an other neither refuse this bond which the Lord of all doeth ratifie in heauen It is not much and it will restoare thee the health of thy soule This strake the Christian Prince to the heart and turning about hee went home with teares and all the tyme that hee was kept out of the Church as a man in mourning hee woulde not put on his Imperiall robes but that Ambrose commaunded him to put off his kingly robes and to leaue his Imperiall throne in the Chauncel this is your venemous admixtion the storie sayth no such thing You falsely father it on S. Ambrose to make men beleeue that the Bishoppe might as well haue taken the princes scepter and sworde from
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
and therfore I rest on it as on the truer though neither damnifie vs as touching this question the worth of a dodkin Phi. It were absurd to thinke that euery of the vulgar sort vnderstoode the Latine tongue Theo. Then is it more absurde when Bede saith The Latine tongue was made common to all the other foure tongues of this Land by the meditation of the Scriptures to interprete that of the vulgar sort and to refer it to the church seruice as you do Phi. You haue skanned our proofes at your pleasure but where all this while are yours that any christian Nation had their publike Seruice in a barbarous tongue I count all tongues barbarous besides the three learned toungs which are Latine Greeke and Hebrew Theo. In what toung ech Nation had their Seruice is nowe harde to bee knowen so many hundrethes yeares after and needlesse to bee discussed For when wee once founde it a rule laide downe by Sainct Paul that All thinges in the Church should be done to edification as well praying singing and thankesgiuing as preaching expounding the word which he calleth prophesieng and that no man is edified by that hee vnderstandeth not and also that the seruice in those two places and churches whereof we haue any records left was common to Priest and people and parted betweene them by verses and respondes the whole people men women and children singing the Psalmes answering to euery part of the seruice and saying Amen to the prayers that were made in all their names lastly that the catholike fathers in their seuerall times and cures taught the people should and witnes the people did vnderstande the publike prayers of the church what neede wee seeke further for barbarous Nations and tongues whereof we haue no monumenâ—â— wherein no famous or learned men wrote whose labors are come to our age or knowledge Phi. I thought you would shrinke when wee came to the quicke you loue to picke holes in other mens coates but not to shew your owne Belike it is so rotten it will not indure the handling Theo. Let the coate alone and come to the case Wee haue the flatte commaundement of God that all thinges in the Church shoulde bee doone to edification and the Apostles inferment that the simple man is not edified when hee vnderstandeth not what is said Your shiftes were that S. Paul spake not of the church prayers nor of the learned tongues Those wee haue refelled and are nowe come to the practise of Christes church which taking her direction from S. Pauls doctrine in this place framed her publike prayers in such order that the Pastour and people with ioyntlie and interchangeably blessed and praied eche with other and either for other not houlding it enough for the simple to say Amen they knewe not to what but requiring and appointing their deuoute distinct and intelligent answeres confessions blessinges and thankesgiuinges as well in the ministration of the Lordes supper as in other partes of their publike seruice The manner of their seruice where the whole church did with one heart and one voice sing praises to God and make their common supplications vnto him is the best exposition that may bee brought for the true construction of Sainct Pauls wordes and therein the auncient and Catholike church of Christ goeth expressely with vs and directly against you as appeareth by all the fathers that euer wrate of these thinges by the very sight and view of their liturgies by your owne authorities which here you abuse yea by the partes and prayers of your mass-Masse-booke prescribed for the people to requiâ—e the priest with and yet remaining in force and dayly vse amongest you In your Apostolike constitutions written by no worse man as you say than by Clemens successour to Peter and fellow labourer in the Gospell with hâ—m this order of seruice at the Lords table was prefixed to the whole Church were they Hebrewes Greekes Romanes Barbarians or whatsoeuer if they were Christians The Bishop shall say the grace of almighty God the loue of our Lord Iesus Christ and the communion of the holy spirit be with you al. And all the people shall answere with one voice And with the spirit Again let the Bishop say Lift vp your harts all let answere We lift them vp vnto the Lord. And againe the Bishop Let vs giue thankes vnto the Lord and all shall answere It is meete and right so to doe And at the ende of that praier it followeth Et omnis populus simul dicat and let all the people with one voice say holy holy holy Lord of hostes The heauen and earth are full of thy glory blessed art thou for euer Amen And so after Let the Bishop say the peace of God be with you all Let all the people answere and with the spirite Let the Bishop admonish the people with these wordes holy thinges for holy persons And let the people answere one holy one Lord one Christ be blessed for euer to the glory of God the father Osanna to the sonne of Dauid Blessed is hee that commeth in the name of the Lord the Lord our God hath appeared vnto vs. Osanna in the hiest If in euerie Church the people were to know when and what to answere in their diuine seruice and with many full and whole sentences to confirme and requite the Bishops prayers and blessinges it is euident they were to vnderstand their owne and the Bishoppes speech which in a straunge and vnknowen tongue such as is vsed in your churches it is not possible for simple men and women to doe Phi. You impugned these constitutioÌ„s but euen now as none of the Apostles Theo. But you receiue them vrge them as Apostolike and therefore against you such proofes are pregnant And so are the Liturgies that is the church prayers which are vnder the names of Iames Basill and Chrysostom in which the like order of praying and blessing by course is appointed both for Prieste and people Let the places be seene if they be not obuious to euery mans eyes let me be rebuked of a bould vntrueth Phi. Your selues admit not those Liturgies Theo. Wee doe not thinke that either Basil or Chrysostom would take vpon them to make a new forme of church seruice if S. Iames the Apostle had doone it before them neitherâ— was the Greeke church to seeke of her seruice till their times or toâ— change it at their pleasures yet the thinges which wee alleage out of these Liturgies haue the manifest testimonies as well of Basill and Chrysostom as of other catholike Fathers both Greeke and Latine in their vnforged vndistrusted writinges Chrysostom expressing the maner of the church in his time sayth Euen in the prayers of the church a man may see the people helpe or offer much togither with the priest for those that are possessed with wicked spirits for the repeÌ„tants CoÌ„munes enim preces à sacerdote
And therefore though the wordes cary a double sense yet we admit them both so you adore Chriâ—t and not the creatures of bread and wyne in his steed which Nazianzene was farre from allowing and his sister from doing For speaking in the same place of the mysticall elements which you woulde haue the people to adore as Christ he saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If any where about her she found part of the figures of the sacred body and blood which her hande had layd vp in stoare watering that with teares not adoring it with diuine worshippe shee departed presently cured of her disease That which you affirme to bee the real and natural flesh and blood of Christ shee had about her as many men and weomen vsed in the primatiue church to carie the same about them and yet shee did not adore that which she had in her hand but him that is serued and honored on the Altar or table of the Lord. Phil. You pare these places with certaine circumstances I know not how But S. Denys the Apostles scholer made a solemne inuocation of the Sacrament after Consecration in these woordes But thou O diuine and most holy Sacrament shewe thy selfe plainely to vs and brighten the eyes of our mynde with thy singular light that can not bee couered You aske proofe for adoration of the Sacrament wee shewe you where the Apostles scholer prayed to the blessed Sacrament in expresse woordes and higher adoration than prayer there can bee none What woulde you more Theo. Wee woulde haue you regard if not your consciences before God yet your credites before men Phi. Doe wee not so thinke you when wee ioyne with Saint Pauls scholer and teach the people to doe as hee did Theo. O wicked and wilfull corruption Phi. Corruption Why What Wherein Theo. The prayer which hee maketh to the sonne of God you wrest to the corporall and externall creatures Phi. No sir that shift will not serue His woordes bee But thou O diuine and most holy Sacrament which hee spake after consecration and yet you will not acknowledge them you bee so furiously bent against the blessed Sacrament Theo. After consecration what 's that Was hee at masse when hee made this prayer Phi. Hee made this inuocation of the Sacrament after Consecration Theo. Did ye euer read the woordes Phi. Twenty times Theo. Where was the host when hee made this prayer Phi. What can I tell To the host he made it Theo. Was he praying at the Altar or writing in his studie when he vttered these wordes Phi. What is that to vs Theo. You say hee prayed to the host and that after Consecration where hee good man was busie at his booke and beseeching God to lighten his vnderstanding that hee might write the trueth Phi. Wheresoeuer hee was hee sayth O thou diuine and most holy Sacrament Theo. Did hee write in Latin or in Greeke Phi. In Greeke What then Theo. The woorde Sacrament is not Greeke Phi. No. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the Greeke woorde but that in Latin is the Sacrament Theo. Graunt the Greeke woorde were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are there no mysteries besides the Sacrament Philand Yeas There are mysteries that are not the Sacrament Theoph. You shall otherwise not only enlarge the limits of your masse to containe your seuen Sacramentes but also multiplie the number of your seuen sacramentes to seuen thousand times seuen For al secrets and wonders in heauen earth and hel which passe the reach or knowledge of the naturall or regenerate man bee mysteries Phi. In deede a mysterie is a secrete as well as a Sacrament Theo. And that in euil things as well as in good As the mysterie of iniquitie the mysterie of the woman and beast on which the whore of Babylon sate Phi. All this is true Theo. And as in euill so in good thinges Saint Paul sayth often The mysterie of God and of Christ. As when hee signifieth to the Colossians his care for them to know the mysterie of God euen the father and of Christ and so the mysterie of fayth of the Gospel of Godlynes and such like Phi. Uery wel Theo. As these be mysteries because they be secrets aboue our natural capacitie though reueiled vnto vs by God in his word so is the nature of God a most incomprehensible mysterie namely the mysterie of the blessed trinitie which is neither expresseable in our words nor conceiueable with our heartes Phi. This we doubt not of Theo. So is there the mysterie of Christes incarnation of his death and passion of his resurrection and ascension and of a thousand such which Christ calleth the mysteries of the kingdome of God and Paul meaneth when he saith Let a man so esteeme vs as the Ministers of Christ and disposers of Gods mysteries And for that cause the whole Gospel is called a mysterie hid since the world began and from all ages but nowe made manifest to his Saints Phi. This is not to our purpose Theo. I thinke it bee not you haue vtterly peruerted the wordes of Dionysius if that bee his worke and those were his wordes which you alleage and nowe you are loth to see it Phi. Conuince vs before you condemne vs. Theo. What other conuiction neede wee than your own conclusioÌ„ Dionysius speaking to Christ saith at lest as you suppose Thou diuine and most holy mysterie replenish the eyes of our soules with thy singular and vnextinguished light You because the word mysterie when it is applied to corporall and externall creatures doeth sometymes signifie a sacrament haue robbed Christ of his honor and giuen it to the element of bread and slaundered that writer whatsoeuer hee was for an open Idolater like to your selues Are not the people well holpe vp to trust such gamsters as you bee that leade them to so daungerous impietie with such manifest impudencie Phi. Your railing vayne is come vpon you Theo. And what vaine is come on you that will rather make a shipwracke of your owne and other mens saluations than you will seeme to relent from your errors Phi. It is no error The. It is an impious and haynous error and you bolster it vp with as euill wicked meanes that is by corrupting and forcing other mens writings to beare out your doings Phi. Dionysius in that whole chapter treateth of nothing but of the Sacrament Theo. And the Sacrament consisting of two partes an earthly and an heauenly the heauenly part of the sacrament is Christ. Why might hee not therefore make his prayer vnto Christ to direct his pen before hee assayed to treat of those mysteries Phi. So hee did but yet intending to pray to Christ hee speaketh to him in the Sacrament Theoph. It is one thing to pray to the sacrament as you though falsely say S. Denys did and an other thing to pray to him that is euery where present in that hee
wordes are Saint Austens Theophil Your assurance is not currant Shewe vs where that wee may finde them Phi. What if I haue not the booke in a readmeâ— Theo. Name the place and it shâ—ll suffice Phi. Perhaps it is not printed Theo. By whome then is it reported Phi. By such as would not lye Theoph. By Walden the frier that wrate against Wicleff Phil. What if he were the reporter Theophil Where had he it Phi. In an old copie written with an auncient and set hand Theo. Which neuer no man sawe besides himselfe Philand That you cannot tell Theoph. Nor you but where is that copy now Philan. Why aske you me out of S. Augustine he had it Theo. Shew vs the booke and beare the bell Philan. He saith it Theo. As though your frierly practises and manifolde forgeries vnder the fathers names were not too wel knowen to trust a Romish Coruester vpon his bare worde in a matter of such importance Phi. In my conscience hee woulde not wilfullie belye S. Augustine Theophil Your conscience is no good consequence In my knoweledge there was no such doctrine taught in the Church as these woordes import whiles S. Augustine liued nor fiue hundreth yeares after his death but the contrary was earnestly maintained and auouched as I haue prooued by Gelasius Theodoret and others And therefore either Walden must make it of his owne heade or ignorantly light on a patch of Anselmus or some such late writer vnder the name of Saint Augustine which was common in your Abbayes and is at this day confessed by your owne fellowes Philand If you thinke Saint Augustine were mistaken you shall haue in venerable Bede as plaine woordes for this point as in Saint Augustine Theophil And as plainely forged as Saint Augustine was Philand Heare what he saieth before you iudge Theophil I am as ready to heare as you to speake Philand His woordes are Ibi forma panis videtur vbi substantia panis non est There the forme of bread appeareth where the substance of bread is not Theophil These places hit your handes as patte as if your selues had framed them Philand You were best saie this is forged Theophil I neede not It saith so much of it selfe creept you can shewe where it is written Philand In his booke de mysteriis missae Theophil There be extaâ—t eight tomes of his workes is it in any of them Philand It maie be it is not Theophil Did he euer write any such booke as de mysteriis missae Philand What else Theo. Who saith so Phi. This is alledged out of that booke Theo. But is he neuer wrate anie such booke how can thiâ— be allâ—dged out of him Phi. If he did not you saie something but how prooue you that he wrate no such booke Theo. Nâ—y you must prooue he did We hauing the Catalogue of his labours witnessed by Triâ—â—emius and others of your owne friends and eight tâ—mes of his writinges at this day extant find no such booke named as Walden mentioneth Philand All this notwithstanding he might write such a booke Theo. He might is not enough you must prooue he did before we acquite you of corruption Phi. Walden repeateth those wordes as out of his booke Theo. We had too late experience of Walden in S. Austen to beleeue either him or you Phi. You will deny all things Theo. You yet bring nothing but that which is no where found in the fathers workes if it be not lewdly forged in their names Thinke you with such trumperie to trie your selues Catholikes Phi. We haue found and good records Theo. Bring out those for these be worse than rotten A frier fourteene hundreth and thirtie yeares after Christ to come with new places out of Austen and Bede cleane contrarie to the rest of their writings and such as neuer any man alledged before him and neuer any man saw them after him who but seducers would bleare the world and blinde themselues with such authorities Phi. Wee did but alledge them to sound what you would say Theo. Then leaue them with shame since you see what they are and get you to other if you haue anie Phi. You would haue them auncient Theo. Would you prooue your selues Catholikes by men of your owne faction Phi. If you count that a faction all the fathers were of our faction Theo. You may soone make them to any faction if you follow frier Waldens fashion but bring vs their workes that we may iudge of their woordes or els you striue in vaine Phi. Hereafter I will Theo. Then haue you a cold sute of this question For of accidentes without subiect or abolishing the substance of bread neuer father spake one word Phi. Yeas S. Chrysostome â—aith Doest thou see bread doest thou see wine Doe these thinges goe to the draught as other meates doe Not so Thinke not so For as when waxe is put to the fire nothing of the substance remaineth nothing redoundeth so here also thinke thou the mysteries consumed with the substance of the diuine bodie Heare you this Theophilus Nothing of the former substance remaineth but the same is consumed with the presence or substance of Christes bodie Theo. I heare it well Philander if you would take it right When you put waxe into the fire nothing neither shew nor substance remaineth this is so true that it will doe you small good Phi. Will it not So it is in the mysteries saith this father Theoph. You would haue it so But Chrysostome saith so thinke when thou commest to the mysteries Phi. And should wee thinke a falshood when wee approch to the mysteries Theo. No but pull both your hartes and eyes from the materiall elements as not regarding them and fixe your cogitations on the celestial grace and vertue that preuaileth and worketh in the mysteries Phi. He would haue vs thinke the mysteries to be consumed Theo. If any reall mutation were to be concluded by this place your holie formes and accidents of breade and wine must be packing as well as the substance For when waxe is throwen into the fire what accidences can you â—et vs remaining doe they not perish togither with the substance If you consult the Schooles they will tell you the accidentes onely perish the matter doeth not So that Chrysostomes similitude maketh litle for your conuersion of substances without accidences his illation certainly maketh lesse Thinke saieth he that the mysteries in like â—ort be consumed The substance of bread which you say is not can no way be taken with you for the mysteries but the shewes and formes of bread and wine by your opinion must be counted in this and all other places the sacred mysteries and therefore if any mysteries be consumed your accidences can neuer scape the brunt of these wordes Howbeit Chrysostomes true meaning was not to turne the bread and wine from their former qualities or substances but the communicantes from all vnworthy and
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
carnis t August in Euang Iohan. tract 50. What means we haue to take hold of Christ now absent in heauen u Ibidem How Christ is prâ—sent with vs and howe he is absent from vs. * There not here x Cyril in Ioan. lib. 6. cap. 14. Christ absent in flesh a Lib. 9. cap. 21. b Lib. 9. cap. 22. c Lib. 11. cap. 3. d Lib. 11. ca. 21. e Lib. 11. ca. 22. f Orig. tract in Matth. 33. His bodie absent from vs. His manhood is neither in all places nor at all times with vs. g Ambr. li. 10. super â—ucae cap. 24. de hora Dominicae resurrectionis christ is not to besought neither on earth nor in earth h Gregor in Euang homil 2â— i Ibidem homil 30. k Ibidem hom 29. The fathers themselues teach both partes of this consequentâ— Christ is in heauen ergo not in earth l August epist. 57. ad Dardanum That the substaunce of Christs bodie maie be in manie places at one time is a condemned heresie m August epist. ad Daâ—danum 57. * Nec aliunde quam inde * In eadem carnis forma atque substantia * If Christes manhood be in euerie place he looseth the truth of his bodie n In eadem epi. ad finem * In aliquâ— loco coeli o August in Iohan tract 30. He speaketh of the trueth of the gospel not of the truth of the bodie of Christ. * β Vno loco esse poâ—est p Vigilius contra Eutych lib. â— cap. 4. * That the flesh of Christ should be euery where was a sequâ—lâ— of Eutyches heresie * Christ maÌ„hood conâ—ained in a place * From this the Iesuits be vtterly fallen q Fulgent ad Thrasimundum Regem lib. 2. cap. 5. * Christs humane substance is not both in heauen earth at one time * If Christ be not locall he is no true man The body of Christ contained in one 〈◊〉 place not diffunded in manie * This without question is the Christian faith and not the Iesuits vbiquitie or multilocitie This is a bare shift of the Iesuits yet this is all the refuge they haue r Aug. epist. 57. s Vigil contra Eutych li. 4. cap. 4. t Fulgent lib. 2. cap. 5. ad Thrasimundum regeÌ„ u Ibidem Fourme is all one with truth and perfection a Ambros. lib. 7. epist. 47. b Leo epist 97. c Chryso in cap. 2. epist. ad Phil. sermâ— 6. d Aug. epist. 57. e Ibidem Per id quod homo is substaÌ„ce as well as shape Christ can haue no humane substance without humane shape f Aug. epist. 57. g Phili. cap. 3. h Fulgent ad Thrasimundâ—â— regâ—m lib. 2. cap. 5. i Theod. dial 2. It is no humane bodie that hath not shape as well as substance k Ambro. in 10. cap. ad Heb. Chrys. hom 17. in eadem epist. l Chrysost. de Sacerdotio li. 3. Chrysostome and Ambrose could not gainesay the rest and be Catholikes The Iesuites would drawe Chrysostome and Ambrose to be of Eutyches opinion These conditions of a true bodie the manhead of Christ maie haue wheresoeuer it be There is but one Christ that one Christ hath but one body which is not euery where m Aug. de essentia diuinitatis n Vigil contra Eutych lib. 4. cap. 4. The words of Ambrose and Chrysostome as the Iesuites conster them are against the verie grounds of our common faith How Chrysostome Ambrose must be vnderstood o Chrys. de Sacerdot lib. 3. Chrysostoms figuratiue vehement â—peaches much abused by the Iesuits p Ambros. lib. 10. in 24. Luc. q August epist. Iohan tract 1. Chrysostome himselfe excludeth the corporall vnderstanding of his words r Chryso de Sacerdot lib. 3. s Ibidem t Chrys. Ibidem The power of God must neuer be alleadged against his wil nor our faith which he hath commaunded vs to beleeue u Tertul. aduers Praxeam Gods omnipotencie a common refuge with heretikes When wee produce gods power for our fansies against his trueth wee make him a lyar and in subiection to our willes The Iesuits pretend god-power against the christian faith * Or if you do not see your selues condeÌ„ned in the great councel of ChalcedoÌ„ Act. 5. definitio 2. as heâ—eâ—iâ—s for not beleeuing it * A very witty excâ—ption Then you beleeue the Christian faith to be true euerie where sauing in the Sacrament and what is that but wilfullie and openlie to denie the faith where you list Whatsoeuer he can doe you bee heretikes in the meane time for contradicting the christian faith * Tertul. aduer Praeâ—eam The Iesuites incurre not onelie Impieties but impossibilities a August conâ—ra â—austum li. 20. cap. 11. b Cyril in Ioan. lib. 15. cap. 3. These fathers were not afraide to saie Christ coulde not be in manie places at one time The Iesuits whiles they would shunne Eutyches error runne headlong into contradictions yet stick in the same mire that Eutyches did c 2. Tim. 2. d Hebr. 6. e Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 5. c. 10. f Ambr. lib. 6. epist. 37. g Ibidem What thingâ— are impossible to God and why Of contradictions one part is euer false and all falshood impossible to God A lie in worke is as bad as a lie in word as contrarie to the nature of God This is right Iesuitical skill to saie the bodie of Christ is and is not contained in a place * These bee worse than the Poets chimers The best gâ—ounds you haue for these thinges are dreames and miracles of your owne making * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * You be good at vndertaking but naught at perfourming It is enough for the Iesuâ—â—s to call themselues Catholiâ—es though they cannot shâ—w one writer for a thousand yeares that taught theâ—r transubstantiation * Which will say neuer a word for your purpose This is cited out of S. Austen by frier Walden tomo 2. de Sacramentis cap. 83 a diuine worke in D. Allens iudgement lib. 1. de Euch. sacâ— pa. 34â— This forgery with others was iudicially allowed by Pope Martin the fifth and his Cardinals in their Consistorie * This young Austen lacked not onely learning and trueth but Latine and witte * Had you not beene ashamed of your occupation you would haue printed iâ— The woordes did so plainly betray thâ—mselues that they haue since suppressed the booke for verâ—e shame Bede likewise forged by Walden * Citatura The. Walden tomo 2. vt supra cap. 82. * He neuer wrate anie such booke The credite of both these places lieth onely on frier Walden who