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book_n know_v lord_n write_v 2,857 5 5.3193 4 true
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A85312 Of schism. Parochial congregations in England, and ordination by imposition of hands. Wherein Dr. Owen's discovery of the true nature of schism is briefly and friendly examined, together with Mr. Noyes of New England his arguments against imposition of hands in ordination. / By Giles Firmin, sometime of new England, now pastor of the Church at Shalford in Essex. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1658 (1658) Wing F958; Thomason E1819_1; ESTC R209761 90,499 170

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schism_n from_o a_o congregation_n that_o be_v not_o reform_v will_v not_o nor_o can_v reform_v itself_o with_o p._n 262._o 1_o tim._n 6.5_o 2_o tim._n 3.5_o hos_fw-la 4.12_o if_o the_o dr._n apply_v these_o text_n to_o our_o separation_n which_o some_o congregational_a church_n make_v i_o question_v whether_o they_o will_v carry_v the_o thing_n he_o produce_v they_o for_o but_o to_o be_v short_a i_o will_v not_o say_v the_o holy_a ghost_n command_v schism_n but_o separation_n in_o some_o case_n he_o do_v therein_o i_o agree_v with_o the_o doctor_n and_z according_o practice_n different_a from_o my_o brethren_n but_o it_o be_v only_o within_o my_o own_o congregation_n deny_v to_o admit_v those_o who_o be_v as_o mr._n vines_n call_v the_o generality_n of_o the_o people_n in_o this_o land_n bruit_n for_o their_o knowledge_n and_o beast_n for_o their_o life_n and_o so_o will_v be_v unto_o the_o seal_n of_o the_o covenant_n of_o grace_n 152._o sacram._n p._n 152._o so_o i_o have_v make_v a_o separation_n in_o the_o congregation_n but_o not_o from_o the_o congregation_n have_v i_o read_v that_o the_o apostle_n have_v stand_v upon_o the_o reality_n of_o grace_n in_o their_o admission_n into_o church-fellowship_n i_o will_v have_v be_v as_o strict_a as_o some_o brethren_n say_v they_o be_v but_o because_o i_o find_v it_o not_o in_o their_o practice_n i_o look_v on_o it_o as_o man_n add_v to_o the_o word_n and_o so_o let_v it_o alone_o but_o our_o question_n be_v not_o whether_o any_o separation_n but_o whether_o such_o a_o separation_n be_v command_v as_o thus_o here_o be_v a_o church_n where_o be_v many_o corrupt_a member_n that_o be_v true_a but_o withal_o here_o be_v 1._o many_o real_a and_o visible_a saint_n 2._o a_o pastor_n godly_a sound_a in_o doctrine_n and_o able_a for_o his_o work_n preach_v christ_n sound_o 3._o the_o ordinance_n in_o themselves_o clear_a from_o humane_a mixture_n 4._o though_o here_o be_v corrupt_a member_n yet_o when_o the_o lord_n supper_n 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recusanda_fw-la etc._n etc._n thus_o i_o conceive_v congregational_a classical_a or_o episcopal_a church_n may_v be_v guilty_a of_o schism_n and_o cause_n schism_n in_o the_o catholick-church-visible_a as_o for_o that_o doctrine_n that_o a_o officer_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n must_v administer_v a_o ordinance_n to_o none_o but_o his_o own_o member_n this_o be_v confute_v in_o the_o practice_n of_o all_o church_n that_o i_o know_v of_o and_o i_o suppose_v will_v not_o be_v defend_v to_o this_o i_o add_v suppose_v there_o be_v divers_a member_n of_o several_a particular_a church_n who_o be_v very_o zealous_a for_o prophesy_v and_o they_o must_v have_v their_o liberty_n to_o prophesy_v whether_o they_o have_v ability_n or_o not_o the_o church_n conceive_v that_o the_o gift_n of_o prophesy_v be_v extraordinary_a be_v cease_v therefore_o will_v allow_v no_o such_o liberty_n these_o be_v so_o set_v for_o their_o prophesy_v that_o they_o make_v division_n in_o the_o church_n and_o at_o 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in_o that_o sense_n i_o speak_v hitherto_o of_o the_o doctor_n definition_n as_o for_o his_o design_n to_o free_v all_o the_o congregational_a church_n from_o the_o imputation_n of_o schism_n though_o we_o suppose_v schism_n to_o be_v a_o causeless_a separation_n from_o a_o church_n i_o have_v rather_o wave_v that_o then_o go_v about_o to_o prove_v the_o contrary_a and_o that_o partly_o because_o of_o the_o honour_n which_o i_o bear_v to_o many_o of_o these_o brethren_n partly_o because_o i_o know_v not_o the_o practice_n of_o all_o congregational_a church_n i_o can_v be_v of_o mr._n ca._n mind_n if_o by_o the_o title_n of_o his_o book_n as_o i_o find_v it_o quote_v by_o the_o doctor_n for_o i_o never_o see_v mr._n cawdrey_n independency_n be_v great_a schism_n he_o mean_v that_o congregational_a principle_n will_v necessary_o conclude_v a_o man_n a_o schismatic_a certain_o from_o the_o principle_n as_o our_o divine_n in_o new-england_n hold_v they_o forth_o such_o a_o necessity_n of_o schism_n will_v not_o be_v force_v but_o whether_o all_o in_o england_n can_v quit_v themselves_o i_o doubt_v it_o what_o some_o may_v think_v of_o i_o who_o find_v i_o in_o mr._n edward_n gang_n among_o the_o independent_o and_o now_o read_v this_o i_o know_v not_o possible_o they_o will_v say_v either_o mr._n edward_n write_v what_o be_v false_a or_o that_o i_o be_o change_v from_o my_o principle_n as_o some_o have_v say_v but_o i_o assure_v the_o reader_n i_o be_o not_o go_v back_o nor_o advance_v one_o step_n in_o these_o controversy_n from_o what_o i_o ever_o manifest_v in_o those_o time_n when_o those_o letter_n be_v send_v to_o mr._n edward_n i_o intend_v not_o to_o follow_v the_o dr._n in_o all_o that_o he_o have_v write_v but_o to_o come_v to_o the_o point_n present_o in_o p._n 263._o the_o dr._n tell_v we_o he_o dare_v bold_o say_v the_o holy_a ghost_n have_v command_v a_o
minister_n who_o know_v they_o beside_o be_v illiterate_a and_o person_n who_o neither_o be_v ordain_v nor_o will_v be_v ordain_v nor_o i_o think_v will_v sober_a minister_n ever_o ordain_v they_o these_o thing_n be_v not_o secret_a but_o more_o public_o speak_v off_o then_o my_o book_n can_v publish_v whence_o their_o friend_n be_v grieve_v their_o enemy_n rejoice_v have_v cause_n they_o think_v to_o open_v their_o mouth_n against_o they_o and_o to_o vilify_v reformation_n beside_o the_o hindrance_n of_o union_n in_o the_o church_n chap._n ii_o concern_v imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n although_o our_o divine_n have_v all_o i_o think_v unless_o a_o few_o rise_v up_o in_o our_o day_n agree_v in_o the_o necessity_n of_o ordination_n to_o a_o minister_n yet_o they_o have_v not_o all_o have_v the_o same_o thought_n about_o imposition_n of_o hand_n as_o if_o it_o be_v necessary_a to_o ordination_n most_o have_v agree_v in_o this_o that_o though_o they_o look_v on_o it_o as_o a_o ceremony_n a_o adjunct_n yet_o it_o ought_v to_o be_v practise_v because_o of_o the_o apostolical_a example_n our_o congregational_a brethren_n in_o essex_n cast_v it_o away_o and_o some_o cause_n i_o have_v to_o stand_v upon_o it_o because_o i_o therefore_o refuse_v ordination_n by_o they_o because_o they_o will_v not_o impose_v hand_n and_o so_o it_o be_v the_o long_a before_o i_o can_v be_v ordain_v if_o i_o do_v refuse_v upon_o insufficient_a ground_n i_o be_o sure_a the_o ground_n which_o be_v give_v to_o i_o for_o the_o contrary_n be_v very_o insufficient_a i_o lose_v the_o paper_n but_o meet_v with_o another_o manner_n of_o antagonist_n short_o after_o mr._n noyes_n a_o reverend_a divine_a and_o my_o dear_a friend_n of_o n._n england_n who_o have_v say_v more_o against_o it_o then_o i_o have_v as_o yet_o hear_v from_o these_o what_o any_o body_n else_o have_v say_v against_o it_o in_o writing_n i_o know_v not_o unless_o the_o author_n of_o the_o diatribe_n etc._n etc._n who_o that_o worthy_a divine_a doctor_n seaman_n have_v answer_v i_o cast_v my_o eye_n upon_o it_o long_o since_o but_o do_v not_o now_o remember_v any_o thing_n pro_n or_o con_n what_o there_o be_v say_v or_o in_o any_o other_o man_n what_o then_o i_o can_v gather_v from_o scripture_n and_o reason_n i_o shall_v humble_o offer_v to_o the_o reader_n and_o to_o mr._n noyes_n in_o answer_n to_o what_o he_o have_v say_v against_o it_o not_o many_o year_n since_o humane_a ceremony_n add_v to_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n how_o much_o trouble_n and_o misery_n they_o add_v to_o the_o church_n we_o have_v not_o yet_o forget_v man_n write_v and_o speak_v so_o far_o as_o they_o dare_v and_o suffer_v by_o reason_n of_o they_o man_n wit_n be_v now_o busy_v as_o much_o in_o throw_v out_o of_o god_n worship_n as_o they_o be_v in_o add_v why_o then_o we_o may_v not_o now_o stand_v up_o in_o desence_n of_o god_n ceremony_n if_o this_o be_v but_o a_o ceremony_n as_o they_o oppose_v man_n ceremony_n i_o know_v not_o come_v then_o to_o imposition_n etc._n etc._n let_v we_o hear_v a_o little_a what_o other_o man_n have_v say_v about_o it_o and_o first_o for_o great_a calvin_n who_o i_o hear_v allege_v against_o imposition_n which_o i_o a_o little_a wonder_v at_o know_v calvin_n have_v speak_v sufficient_o for_o it_o 1._o 16._o instit_fw-la l._n 4._o c._n 3._o s_o 16._o licet_fw-la nullum_fw-la extet_fw-la certum_fw-la praeceptum_fw-la de_fw-la manuum_fw-la impositione_n quia_fw-la tamen_fw-la fuisse_fw-la in_o perpetuo_fw-la usu_fw-la apostolis_n videmus_fw-la illa_fw-la tam_fw-la accurata_fw-la eorum_fw-la observatio_fw-la prae_fw-la cepti_fw-la vice_fw-la nobis_fw-la esse_fw-la debet_fw-la 2._o again_o impositionem_fw-la manuum_fw-la 20._o l._n 4._o c._n 14._o s_o 20._o qua_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la ministri_fw-la in_fw-la suum_fw-la munus_fw-la initiarentur_fw-la non_fw-la invitus_fw-la patior_fw-la vocari_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la 3._o again_o 16._o l._n 4._o c._n 2._o s_o 16._o et_fw-la certè_fw-la utile_fw-la est_fw-la ejusmodi_fw-la symbolo_fw-la ministerii_fw-la dignitatem_fw-la populo_fw-la commendari_fw-la etc._n etc._n praeterea_fw-la non_fw-la erit_fw-la inane_fw-la signum_fw-la si_fw-la in_o germanam_fw-la svam_fw-la originem_fw-la restitutum_fw-la fuerit_fw-la nam_fw-la si_fw-la nihil_fw-la frustra_fw-la spiritus_fw-la dei_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la dei_fw-la instituit_fw-la hanc_fw-la ceremoniam_fw-la cum_fw-la ab_fw-la eo_fw-la profecta_fw-la sit_fw-la sentiemus_fw-la non_fw-la esse_fw-la inutilem_fw-la modo_fw-la in_o superstitiosum_fw-la usum_fw-la now_o vertatur_fw-la see_v he_o again_o l._n 4._o c._n 19_o s_o 31._o calvin_n judgement_n be_v clear_a with_o his_o reason_n for_o it_o chemnitius_n give_v we_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o lutheran_n church_n say_v 221._o exam._n council_n trid._n p._n 221._o nec_fw-la manuum_fw-la impositionem_fw-la vocare_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la gravabimur_fw-la i_o omit_v austin_n who_o call_v it_o so_o long_o before_o they_o be_v bear_v in_o a_o large_a sense_n not_o the_o popish_a sense_n nos_fw-la uno_fw-la verbo_fw-la dicimus_fw-la si_fw-la per_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la jusjurandum_fw-la 321._o loc._n com._n p._n 321._o &_o religiosam_fw-la obstrictionem_fw-la intelligunt_fw-la sit_fw-la ordo_fw-la ipsorum_fw-la per_fw-la i_o licet_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la quale_fw-la veteribus_fw-la erat_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la militare_fw-la say_v musculus_fw-la walaeus_n say_v 473._o loc._n com._n l._n 1._o p._n 473._o in_o all_o the_o confession_n of_o their_o church_n except_o one_o or_o two_o it_o be_v require_v and_o because_o the_o apostle_n always_o use_v it_o and_o the_o apostle_n give_v that_o precept_n to_o tim._n 5.22_o not_o to_o lay_v on_o hand_n sudden_o we_o ought_v not_o to_o omit_v it_o because_o in_o that_o negative_a a_o affirmative_a be_v contain_v that_o he_o shall_v impose_v on_o worthy_a person_n where_o since_o by_o a_o synecdoche_n it_o be_v take_v for_o the_o election_n of_o a_o pastor_n certè_fw-la pro_fw-la ritu_fw-la vel_fw-la parte_fw-la essentiali_fw-la habenda_fw-la est_fw-la thus_o he_o from_o the_o same_o charge_n to_o timothy_n 74._o sur._n ch_n dis_n p._n 2._o p._n 74._o mr._n hooker_n say_v he_o be_v willing_a to_o follow_v the_o road_n when_o he_o have_v no_o constrain_a reason_n to_o go_v aside_o it_o seem_v this_o reverend_a man_n know_v no_o cause_n why_o imposition_n shall_v be_v lay_v aside_o the_o synod_n of_o new_a england_n say_v 9_o platf_n ch_n dis_n c._n 9_o church-officer_n ought_v to_o be_v ordain_v with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n here_o than_o we_o have_v the_o father_n papist_n lutheran_n calvinist_n episcopal_n classical_a congregational_a man_n the_o church_n general_o since_o the_o apostle_n day_n impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n we_o must_v have_v strong_a reason_n as_o mr._n hooker_n say_v to_o lead_v we_o afide_fw-la from_o these_o church_n custom_n of_o the_o church_n paul_n use_v to_o make_v something_o of_o 1_o cor._n 11._o i_o think_v so_o shall_v we_o have_v especial_o such_o scripture-precedent_n go_v before_o they_o i_o look_v upon_o their_o practice_n as_o very_o weighty_a but_o i_o come_v to_o argument_n lay_v down_o first_o my_o position_n imposition_n of_o hand_n ought_v to_o be_v use_v in_o ordination_n arg._n 1._o that_o form_n of_o ordination_n which_o come_v near_a to_o the_o gospel-pattern_n aught_o to_o be_v use_v but_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n be_v that_o form_n which_o come_v near_a to_o the_o gospel-pattern_n ergo_fw-la imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n ought_v to_o be_v use_v the_o major_a i_o suppose_v can_v well_o be_v deny_v especial_o by_o those_o who_o in_o the_o bishop_n day_n use_v to_o cry_v out_o so_o much_o all_o thing_n must_v be_v make_v according_a to_o the_o pattern_n in_o the_o mount_n and_o why_o now_o i_o pray_v must_v not_o thing_n be_v do_v according_a to_o the_o pattern_n of_o the_o gospel_n what_o do_v you_o make_v of_o it_o that_o which_o you_o may_v follow_v or_o let_v alone_o as_o you_o please_v what_o be_v say_v against_o this_o i_o shall_v meet_v with_o anon_o for_o the_o minor_n bring_v we_o forth_o those_o rule_n or_o example_n which_o show_v that_o man_n may_v be_v ordain_v or_o be_v ordain_v without_o imposition_n of_o hand_n that_o church-officer_n be_v ordain_v with_o imposition_n the_o text_n be_v know_v as_o before_o mention_v arg._n 2._o if_o the_o gospel_n express_v the_o whole_a ordinance_n of_o ordination_n by_o imposition_n of_o hand_n than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n ought_v to_o be_v use_v but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_a ergo_fw-la the_o consequent_a be_v true_a the_o consequence_n be_v clear_a for_o why_o shall_v the_o apostle_n mention_n that_o which_o be_v but_o needless_a or_o at_o least_o but_o indifferent_a to_o set_v out_o a_o ordinance_n by_o obj._n but_o it_o be_v say_v obj._n this_o be_v no_o more_o than_o what_o paul_n say_v at_o another_o time_n for_o this_o cause_n i_o bow_v my_o knee_n etc._n etc._n meaning_n prayer_n a._n 1._o be_v it_o so_o yet_o this_o hinder_v not_o sol._n for_o