is among you Papists Some one of ye doe deuise a lye and then ye tosse it from one to another vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe and come to some other of your wicked meanes by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villanies which trueth neuer néedeth because the Lord doth support her Pa. Can you finde such matters against vs and not see your selues I warrant ye that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you howsoeuer ye accuse vs and excuse your selues Pro. Where can ye finde that euer the truth was maintained by periuries and breaking couenants Let a man reade and reade again among all Heathen men Turks and Iewes where shall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue and not make conscience to kéepe the oth Among you this is a principle faith is not to bee kept with heretikes Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes when yee dare publish it to the world in writing that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaughters and cruell murthers the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of Are these practises of God O ye bloody periured forsworne wretches Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing no verely it is the spirit of the father of lyes of periuries of murthers which ye are lead withall Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth hee neuer teacheth men to lye and to deale falsly and therefore those people are bewitched which think the Pope his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries Pa. What should we meddle with these things I cannot tell how a man should perswade you to see the authoritie of the Church You iudge of all things after your owne reason I haue no delight to deale in these matters I will not say that which I could say Pro. I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues For now no man that is wise will trust ye neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth which ye breake so often There be many goodly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath For ye haue none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things Gods word doth curse and condemne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things He is of another maner power then men wéete The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will and to say what hee list whether it bee true or false This is a mightie God he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in the Scriptures if he say it is naught then is it naught So on the other side whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill he hath power to make it good This is the cause why you say many are deceiued they looke but to the Scriptures and forget this God which hath power ouer the Scriptures Pa. If you may accuse what ye list then it were well But let vs see wherein the Pope hath challenged any such power Pro. Haue not I shewed ye already in some part as in lyes murders and periuries Will ye haue more what say ye to treasons and rebellions Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treason Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious What diuell can goe further then this Doth not God set vp Princes and hath not hee put the sword into their hands Doth not he charge men to bée subiect to obey them Doth not he say that whosoeuer doth resist them doth resist the ordinance of God and that those which doe resist do purchase to themselues damnation O ye traiterous wretches doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation vnder Gods curse whom ye draw from their loue and obedience towards their Prince Let all men consider this hath a greasie balde Priest of Italie power against Gods word to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince whom God hath set ouer them for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward that déede in heauē which God hath threatned to punish in hell Let all the people of this land consider this and shun such filthy abominable men Some will say wherefore should wee eschew them being honest If ranke traytors be honest then are all the Iesuites Seminaries and popish priests with such as loue and harbour them to be counted honest Pa. I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking and therefore I will giue ye ouer say euen what ye list I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke I could answere ye to the full if it might doe good Thus much I will say that it is one thing to commit treason against a prince which is godly and another thing to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell but when the prince is no right prince then they are no longer subiects What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges did not he slay Eglon king of Moab and that vnder colour of a message What say ye to Iehoiada the priest did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah when she had reigned certaine yeares and set vp Ioash to bee king If the priest of the law had this power how much more the priest of the Gospell Pro. Ye would giue me ouer now ye say but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people whom ye may draw to your opinion or with such as ye know to beare the same minde
he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the
defile Gods house we waite when it shall please God to put into the hearts of our godly gouernours to purge the Church by it Pa. You giue the greater colour vnto the matter because a few among you speake of such a thing what is that to the purpose the whole discipline of your Church which all those which are your Church doe acknowledge is established among ye there is no want confessed Pro. No man is to regarde what a few or many doe speake but what God doth speake by his word Whereas yée affirme that our Church doth acknowledge no wāt I say our Church doth acknowledge a want for who are the Church or of the Church but such as doe embrace the whole word of GOD But least ye should still goe forward after your former maner and say that a few doe this not the state of our Church looke in the booke of our Common Prayer and there ye shall finde that the graue godly fathers of our Church when they did reforme it from Poperie setting down the curses out of Moses which are to be denounced at a certaine time in the yere they doe withall set downe and declare their meaning namely that this should bee for a time in stead of that discipline which they can not onely confesse to bee wanting but also greatly to be desired as they wished for it Pa. I cannot tell what the fathers of your Church doe set downe there neither doe I minde to looke VVhen ye haue said all that yee can yee shall be driuen to confesse that there is all loosenes and libertie vnto the flesh among ye Ye haue feasting and gluttonie in stead of fasting O our good forefathers how much are ye vnlike them they did oftentimes fast and punish their bodies and goe in sackcloth these new Gospellers haue found a more easie way they can doe all contrary and yet goe to heauen neuerthelesse Our father 's liued in great straightnes and these walke at libertie which of these shall we like best shall we forsake them and allow of these No Christ telleth vs The way is straight which leadeth vnto heauen If euer any walked in that way they were our forefathers which punished themselues and liued so deuoutly Pro. If there bee loosenes and libertie among vs it is by them which obey not the Gospell which calleth them from all sinfull lusts of the flesh vnto the obedience of Gods holy wil. The right fast which the Scripture doth commend is in estimation among vs we doe not onely write and speake of it but also haue and are ready for to practise it both publikely and priuately That which you brag of is not the true fast for although a man cram his bellie neuer so full of fish so that hée abstaine frō flesh you call it a fast Swéet wines and daintie iunkets are allowed in your fast Moreouer ye fast when ye doe it in the most straight maner and pine your selues to a most wicked and abominable end for ye doe it as a worke which is meritorious ye séeke remission of your sinnes by it and so ye denie the redemption by the merits of Christ only which is so cursed blasphemous a thing that it doth turne al your fastings and praiers into sinne Your fasting is such as God did reproue in the Iewes by his prophets and such as the blind Pharisie boasted of saying Luke 18. I fast twise in the weeke Doubtles if the abstaining from meate could make a man holy the Pharisies should haue béen excéeding holy men and the ancient Iewes against whom the Lord complained should haue bin cōmended but they like hypocrites fasted from bodily sustenance and filled themselues with all spiritual wickednes euen such are you O ye detestable hypocrites although ye goe sometimes with emptie bellies yet your soules are as full of sin as euer they cā hold We haue iust cause to cry out against ye for seducing so many of our forefathers and making them beléeue that the very broad way to hell was the norrow straight way which leadeth vnto heauen You blind Pharisies answere is that the straight way vnto life which the starkest hypocrite of all the most vngodly men can obserue and walke in as well as other Is that the narrow gate which the couetous the malicious the adulterous and vniust man can passe in at as well as other Tell me this can there not be a lecherous heart and a malicious minde in a bodie couered with sackcloth Cannot a wicked hypocrite punish his body pine and whip himselfe and yet his sinfull soule within neuer a whit reformed This then is not the straight way but the straight way is that which Christ and his Apostles doe teach which none can finde nor walke in but the true faithfull man namely to denie himselfe to kil and crucifie all sinfull lusts and concupiscences in the heart to séeke out the will of God and in all things to obey it This is the narrow way which all those are to séeke after if they will be saued all our godly forefathers haue walked in this way and sought thus to please God they knew that the kingdome of heauē could not bee purchased by any such outward trifles as you deuised but that such as will enter in there must bée new borne No man therefore néede to feare when he walketh in this straight way which we publish by the doctrine of the Gospell because he doth not forsake our forefathers vnlesse it be such as haue forsaken the trueth being seduced by Antichrist Pa. VVhat is it which you cannot do that can so easily proue all the holy deuotion of such as liue a straight life to bee but hypocrisie but say what ye will ye shall neuer be able to proue that such things are trifles I know well enough that your sect make small account of all religious obseruations let them beleeue ye that will is it possible that God should refuse those men which of a good meaning and deuotion are so carefull to please him which are content to take so great paines to serue him and are so humble minded as to refuse nothing by which they may abase themselues to please him O that you heretikes did but a little know how deuoute the minde of the Catholike is ye would euen bee ashamed that euer ye were so foolish to separate your selues from so holy a companie But alas the world hath blinded your eyes and the diuell hath be witched ye so far that ye care not for any goodnes Pro. All faithfull Christians doe knowe well enough the blinde deuotion of you Papists and are so farre from being ashamed to separate themselues from yée that they giue immortall thankes and praise to God that he hath opened their eyes to sée the light and to auoide that strong delusion which you are deluded withall what good meaning and deuotion so euer yée pretend what paines so euer ye take how humble so euer ye