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A69195 Certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, Richard archbishop of Canterbury, Richard bishop of London, William bishop of Lincolne, Garvase bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Exeter, & Thomas bishop of Peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere. Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. 1605 (1605) STC 6572.5; ESTC S112734 57,418 70

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service of God or for the profite of his people But Hezekiah might have done well and vprightly also if so be he had still reserved the Serpent as a memoriall of the miracles wrought by the looking vpon it though for the abuse of burning incense before it he had not broken the same in pieces But wee beseech your Lordships to informe vs rightly out of holy Writt whether this your answere in the sight of the Lord be vpright yea or no First after the peoples heartes were once turned aside by burning incense to the Serpent it was not in the power of Hezekiah to knowe whether the peoples hearts would have bene againe vpright in the memoriall of the miracles yea or no And as for the restitution of the Serpent to that integritie of doing miracles after the peoples departure out of the wildernesse when they were no more stunge by Serpents that to doe was much lesse in the power of Hezekiah Besides because by the doctrine of holy Writt we be taught not only that the forbidding of one thing includeth a commandement of the contrary and that the commandement of one thing inforceth a forbidding of the contrary but also that aswell the omission of a dewtie required as the commission of a thing prohibited is an offence to God We pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ whether the holy Ghost commending the vprightnes of Hezekiah aswel for breaking to pieces the brasen Serpent as in taking away the high places and breaking the Images and cutting down the groves doe not instruct vs that he was to have bene discommended in case he had let the Serpent stood vnbroken down though he had cut downe the Groves broken the Images and taken away the high places For in our iudgments by the doctrine aforesaid founded vpon holy Writt the breaking of the Serpent being reckoned as a part of his vprightnes and for the which he is commended the not breaking thereof must needes have bene as an vnvpright and as discommendable a thing as the not cutting downe of the Groves the not breaking the Images and the not taking away the High places But such Copes Surplices Crosses c. as heretofore have bene worne and vsed at for Idols service are not eadem numero with ours For all the old Popish Copes Surplices c. be long since out of date and we will have all spicke and span new Yea be it so yet if the fashion and workmanship of their old be the true paterns of our new how shall not ours be like vnto theirs King Ahaz though hee sent not the very same Altar which hee saw at Damascus but the paterne and the fashion of it and all the workemanshippe thereof to Vriah the Priest yet doeth the holy Storie witnesse that hee trespassed and did evill and commendeth Hezekiah that in the first yeare and first moneth of his reigne hee commanded the Levites to cary forth the filthinesse out of the Temple and all the vncleanenes that they found in the Temple of the Lorde brought in by their Fathers In the second booke of the Kings the holy Ghost testifying what evill Hoshea the sonne of Elah King of Israell his Fathers had done in the sight of the Lord sheweth vs that they followed vanitie and became vaine and followed the Heathen that were round about them concerning whom the Lord hath charged them that they should not doe like them And againe that they walked according to the fashion of the Heathen And againe that they burned incense in the High places as did the Heathen And againe that they would not obey but hardened their neckes like to the neckes of their Fathers and againe that they obeyed not but did after their old custome yea and the Lorde by the mouth of Abijah King of Iudah reproved Ieroboam to his face not for that he had made Priests of other countries but that he had made him Priests like the people of other countries But by your patience Sirs these cases be not alike For there was an expresse commandement in the Law that there should be but one Altar the paterne also whereof was given to Moyses in the holy Mount whereas we be not expresly forbidden in the Gospell to weare Copes Surplices or to make Crosses But by your Lordships favour say we the cases notwithstanding this your exception be a like for the Bride say we of the Lambe by the doctrine of the Gospell is aswell expresly taught and bound as the Israelites were to observe and keepe the second commandment of the Law yea shee is commanded not to fashion hir self like to this world not to weare the liverye of the great whore not to marke hir selfe in the hand or in the forehead with the marke of the Beast not to have any fellowship concord part or agreement with Beliall with an infidell or with an Idoll If then the great whore doe still raigne though not over vs if the beast doe still rage though his hornes push not at vs if Beliall be still worshipped though not by vs And if also this Beliall and this Beast vaunt him selfe and this great Whore glory and decke hir selfe in and with this kind of apparelling and this maner of Crossing we humbly pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writ whether amōg our Priests whosoever shall come to praye to preach or to administer the Sacraments with a Cope with a Surplice with a Taper with a Crosse or with a shaven Crowne like to the Copes Surplices Tapers Crosses and shaven Crownes of those Priestes which are Priestes to them which are no gods whether such our Priestes wee saye borrowing this attyre from the great whore and vsing the same in the service of the true God doe not follow vanitie and become vaine and follow the Popish Idolaters about vs concerning whom the Lord hath forbidden we should not doe like them neither walke according to their fashion and after their old custome niether to have any part fellowship communion concord or agreement with them What Sirs would you then have vs to have no manner of agreement concord or communion with the Papistes with the Beast or with the great whore what no thing at all why then Sirs you would belike have vs pull downe our Churches our Oratories and our Chappell 's Though our desire be to keepe our selves from all the defilements and pollutions of that Romish strumpett yet doe wee dislike the pullinge downe of Churches c. For we knowe and are fully perswaded by rules of holy Writt that wee may lawfullie vse not onlie Churches Oratories and Chappell 's but also that we may have seates in Churches Pulpits in Churches Fonts in Churches Tables together with faire lynen table clothes to cover these Tables in Churches Bells and Ropes for Bells in Churches yea and besides that Reading Praying Preaching administring of Sacraments Singing yea and
estimation to the honor and dignitie of our Christian King and the noblenes of his kingly charitie declared by his proclamation as that hereafter in your consistories and publique seates of Iudgement you would vse conferences arguments and perswasions wayes of love and gentlenes workings by clemencie and weight of reason to reclayme all that be in the ministerie to the obedience of the church lawes according as by the Kings proclamation you are required rather thē by rigour of law shaking the kings sword and pressing the kings commandement to enforce the trembling consciences of your weake brethren contrarie to the Kings most noble christian intention plainly vttered by his proclamation There be sundrie other poyntes in his Maiesties proclamation which by your Lordships worthily deserved consideration before you had begun those violēt courses which some of you have pursued in this case The peremptory day assigned to the Ministers for their conformitie by the King being of more authoritie then 1000. of your canonicall admonitious would have bene fully expired before you had troubled the Ministers about this matter otherwise then by conferences argumentes perswasions c. All Ministers who had incurred no censures of the church or penalties of the law in the Queenes tyme or since the Kings raigne before the sixth of Iuly 1604. be exempted out of the proclamation though before the day appointed they have not conformed them selves to the orders of the Church And yet many such have you disquieted The Lawes and orders of the Church remayne very vncerteyne so as it is not certeyne to what lawes and orders established the ministers should conforme them selves And yet before the day expired you have vrged some Ministers to cōforme them selves to Canons divulged since the Proclamation The Canon law is vtterly voyd within the Realme and therefore your oath of Canonicall obedience is of no force and all your Canonicall admonitions not worth a rush The old provinciall constitutions intreat of no such oath besides they litle or nothing respect any orders or ceremonies of our Church To which booke of common prayer the Ministers should subscribe in that maner and forme as by the Canon is required is not decided If they subscribe to the booke published since the Kings raigne they may then be called into question at every sessions assises for vsing an other forme then is prescribed in the Queenes booke the same remayning still in force vnrepealed if subscription be vrged to the Queenes booke then may not the Ministers yeeld therevnto because the Kinge and Bishops have concluded to reforme some things conteyned in the same as being repugnant to the holy word of God Besides the booke of common prayer of the second of Edward 6. touching ornamentes rites and ceremonies and wherevnto for the same respect both the Queenes and the Kings booke hath reference revived this last Parliament by disannulling the statute of repeale made the first of Queene Mary This book we say of the 2. of Edw. 6 establishing other ornaments rites and ceremonies then the former bookes doe some of those ceremonies also to be vsed or at least at every mans devotion and the ornaments after another maner thē ours make vs greatly to stand in doubt whether all ceremonies conteyned in every of these bookes or but some or which of them are to be vsed yea or no. Touching the late Canons of what authoritie many of them be may iustly be questioned because some of them seeme vnto vs to be contrariant or repugnant to the lawes statutes customes of the realme som to be derogatorie to the Kings prerogative royall and other some to be repugnant to the holy word of God and therefore in all these three respects to be voyd canons by the common law statutes of the realme Lastly howsoever some ministers might be within the cōpasse of the proclamation not conforming them selves before the last of Novēb to the lawes established before the 16. of Iuly neverthelesse the Bishops after the day expired ought to have attēded the Kings pleasure by what wayes and meanes he had determined to take from among the people all occasions of sectes divisions and vnquietnes much lesse before the day should they have attempted any thing vnlesse as the proclamation requireth them they had provided meete persons to bee substitutes in the places of those who wilfully had abandoned their charges These things being thus most providently nobly and Royally for the quietnes of the church set forth by the Kings proclamation it had bene a parte of very great wisedome and moderation for your Lordships in our opinions paciently to have expected the Kings further direction before by your vntimely pressing the kinges commandement authoritie and rigour of his lawes ye had indevoured the inforcing of their consciences without perswasions by weight of reason And so much the rather should your Lordships have done this that hereby ye might have satisfied all civill Magistrates Gentlemen and others of vnderstandinge that they seeing by your conferences argumentes perswasions love gentlenes clemencie and weight of reason that the cause which you maintayne not that which they impugne is good might not in any sorte have supported favoured or countenanced any factious ministers in their obstinacie as by the proclamation they are required And yet by your Lordships favour not to conceale any thing which hetherto we have as we thinke rightly conceaved of the Kinges proclamation we can not but informe your Lordships that by the same the King hath more tēdered the good estate of the ministers of their controversie in hand then ever was tēdred by any former Prince since poperie was banished For when was there in England before this time by any kingly proclamation any conference argument perswasion love gentlenes clemencie weight of reason commanded rigor of the law forbidden to be vsed by the Archbishops Bishops for the reclayming of the ministers to the lawes of the church When were any ministers by publike authoritie called as it were into open field to stand vpon arguments and weight of reason Whē was it appointed by publike authoritie that any ministers should answere and that Archbishops Bishops should oppose that the ministers should be defendants and the Bishops plaintifes When was it proclaymed by any Princes authoritie that the Archbishops and Bishops to their vttermost indevours by argumentes and weight of reason should prove vnto the ministers that the book of cōmon prayer bookes of homilies booke of cōsecrating Bishops Priests and Deacons book of Articles and other lawes orders of the church conteyne nothing in the whole or in any parte disagreeable either in doctrine or governement to the word of God All which things by the proclamation are intended should be done which things also if the Archbishops Bishops have done thē indeed we confesse the ministers that have not yeelded to conforme thēselves to be wilfull the King to be righteous for
as that not only they content not thē selves by eating flesh themselves to grieve to offend a weak brother to give him an occasion to sinne but also cōmand a weake brother to eate that meate by eating wherof he can not but fal but stumble but grieve but offend but sinne and but destroy him selfe This kind of charitie may deserve vnhappely the name of some Synodal or Provincial charitie but certes it can neverworthely deserve to be called an Apostolicall charitie But Sirs you mistake the matter very much you deceive your selves draw not the cases rightly The vse of Crosses Copes Surplices Cappes kneelings are cōmanded by the christiā Magistrates soveraigne authority only as things indifferēt for orders sake not that men should be grieved and offended or that they should fall stumble sinne destroy them selves Touching the christian Magistrates authoritie about ordering rites ceremonies in the church we have somewhat at large argued before which we had thought might have fully satisfied your Lordships but because it pleaseth you still to presse vs with the same we must once againe plainly signifie vnto you that we beleeve that your selves do not attribute any more spirituall authoritie vnto the King to make constitute and ordeine canons constitutions rites or ceremonies then you give vnto him spirituall power to preach the word administer the Sacraments and excommunicate For we beleeve that your selves with the residue of the clergie assembled by the Kings writt in your convocation doe chalendge all spirituall power vnto your selves to make ordeine and decree all maner of canons constitutions ordinances ornaments rites and ceremonies in the Church Yea and this spirituall power we beleeve that you pretend to be derived vnto your selves and the rest of the clergie in the convocation not from any spirituall power invested in the person of our soveraigne Lord the King but onely from the spirituall power of our Saviour Christ alone And this is manifest by your Cxxxix canon for so are your words Whosoever shall hereafter affirme that the Sacred Synode of this nation in the name of Christ and by the Kings authoritie assembled is not the church of England by representation let him be excommunicated c. These wordes wee say of your canon viz. Sacred Synod is assembled in the name of Christ and by authoritie of the King plainely testifie that you hold your Synode not to be assembled by authoritie of the King in the name of the King or in the name of Christ and the King but only in the name of Christ And therefore by your owne wordes wee are inforced to beleeve that you attribute vnto the King none other authoritie then such as you attribute to the godly Kinges of Judah namely an authoritie to assemble and command your persons as they assembled and commanded the persons of the Priestes What to execute the rites and ceremonies of the Kinges of Iudah No but to execute the rites and ceremonies of God And so we beleeve your persons being assembled by authoritie and commandement of the King that your selves by your owne authoritie and that in the name and by the power of Christ and not in the name and power of the King doe ordeine decree and make canons constitutions rites and ceremonies as if they were sent vnto vs by your handes from God And thus much doe the very first words of your first canon and some words in your 140. 141. canons clearly prove For howsoever in the title of your book you vse these words Constitutions and Canons treated and agreed vpon by the Bishop of London c. Yet both in the proheme body of your first canō you affirme as followeth In your proheme or title you say thus the Kings supremacy over the church of Englād in causes ecclesiastical you say not over the church causes but over the church in causes and in the body of the same canō you say we first decree ordeine that the Archb. of Canterbury c. and in the Cxl. canon your words are these Whosoever shall affime that no maner of person c. are to be subiect to the decrees therof speaking of the Synod eccllesiasticall made ratified by the kings Maiesties supreame authority c. let him be c. your words also in your last canō are these whosoever shal hereafter affirm c. that the sacred Sinod assembled c. was a company of persons c. in making canons cōstitutions in causes ecclesiasticall c. ought to be despised c. the same being ratified confirmed and inioyned by the regall power supremacie and authoritie lett them be excommunicated Now by all these your owne words and sentences we decree ordeine decrees of the Synod making canons by the sacred Synod ratified confirmed inioyned by the regall power c. by all these words we say we can not but beleeve that you chalendge your ecclesiasticall power of ordeining decreeing making decrees canons constitutions rites and ceremonies to be invested in your owne persons assembled by authoritie of the King from the authoritie and power of Christ and not from any spirituall or ecclesiasticall power invested in the person of the King and derived and conveighed vnto your persons assembled by his regall writt For then how should we not beleeve also but that you iudged the Kings writt to be no civil but an ecclesiasticall and spirituall writt But howsoever as yet wee beleeve not this latter yet still we beleeve that you appropriate vnto your owne persons assembled by the Kings writt a sole power and that from our Saviour Christ to give vnto your decrees canons constitutions rites and ceremonies their first being and their first birthright and that you assigne vnto the King none other power but a power of their after birth of ratifying and confirming of that life being which your persons have first put into them So that the King is in this but as it were an executioner of your canons and not you the executioners of the Kings decrees Yea thus much M. Doctor Bilson in his Book intituled True difference betweene Christian subiection vnchristian rebellion Pag. 243. avoweth testifieth whose words are these We never said that Princes had any spirituall power it is a false collection of yours it is no part of our cōfession the sword which they bear we never called but external tēporall Againe to devise new rites and ceremonies for the Church is not the Princes vocation but to receive and allow such as the Scriptures and canons commend and such as the Bishops Pastours of the place shall advise not infringing the Scriptures or canons so for all other ecclesiasticall things causes Princes be neither the devisors nor directors of them but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good and displacers and revengers of that which is evill which power we say they have in all things be they spirituall