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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	king_n	lord_n	son_n	2,666	5	5.2816	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A11532	A conference betvvixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth, and publike worship of god established nowe in England. Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saued.; Conference betwixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant.	Savage, Francis, d. 1638.	1600 (1600)	STC 21781; ESTC S106433	62,438	140

woman being excused by ignorance yet compelled by the disciplin● of the Church his obedience excuseth him This is grosse and knowne adultery excused by these holy Catholicks false reason and erring conscience ruleth this kingdōe of darkenesse so shamefully If this be not libertinisme what is Alas why might not this fauour be shewed in Queene Maries daies that an erring conscience should excuse Why were men and women then compelled to doe contrary to their consciences which at worst must be granted to be erroneous consciences Nay see their partiality yet more for if one of their prelats command what a mans erring cōscience stardeth at then they say such a man ought to lay away that his conscience and obey his prelate And why not when God cōmandeth should a man doe the like O blinde guides what doctrine is this if the commandement of an inferiour officer or magistrate bind not when the superiour as King or Emperour commandeth the contrary how may an erring conscience euer bind me against the Lord Gods booke is so farre from allowing this erring conscience and this pretēsed knowledge that it onely alloweth good and suffereth not euill to be done that good may come of it M. Surely I see more harshnesse in the doctrine then I did before But on the other side to compell and force any body by lawes and penalty before the conscience be fully perswaded is it not as harsh and hard to S VVhere there is an honest plaine meaning to indeauour to be perswaded and resolued god forbidde but some time should bee graunted And I thinke it is so in all places But propound the matter thus whether a godly prince after a time giuen meanes graunted to be taught and instructed and after al gentlenes patience vsed his subjects refusing to be taught and contemning that gratious great fauour continuing still perve●sly and obstinately in Idolatrie and superstition whether I say then by lawes and punishments to compel thē to the true worship of God be so harde and harsh And then truth wil answer that it is not but iust godly and fit For not onely to maintaine publike peace is the sword giuen but also to see that God be serued according to his cōmandements ●trieis cal ●amans ●●tum that is both the tables are cōmitted to him the breaches of both ought by him to be punished otherwise man should bee regarded more then God the lesser duties more then the greater In which holy and relious duty hath not the magistrate god for his patterne who after words of admonition giuē to his own elect deare children if they take no place cōpelleth as it were by crosses rods of his fatherly loue to the bettering of their course leauing of euill Yea is not our own practise so with our own children if gentle admonition will not serue wherevpō the saying sprāge he that spareth the rod hateth the child what shall we say to the Scriptures that are as plaine for the warrāt of this matter as we need to desire did not Nabuchodonosor make a law that euery people nation and language which spak any blasphemy against the god of Sidrach c. should be drawn in peeces Dan. 3.29 their houses made a ●akes Darius also made another decree chap 6. In the book of Chronicles Asa destroieth Idolatry cōmandeth his people to serue the true God 2. Chro. 14.14 yea he sweareth them and deposeth his mother for adulterie whose erroneous conscience was in all likelihood as strōg as any Papists for his popery In the book of Ezra we read that the king of Persia made a decree that the Iewes should build their temple that they should haue all things necessarie for their sacrifices that they might offer sweet odours vnto the God of heauen pray for the kings life the life of his sonns Also he made another law that whosoeuer should alter that sentence a penal stat●● the wood should be pulled down from his house and set vp and he hanged thereon his house made a dunghil for this Ezra 6.11 And the god that hath caused his name to dwell their saith that lawe destroy all kings and people that put their hand to alter and destroy this house of God which is in Hierusalem Idarius haue made a decree let it be done with speede After againe which I pray you good mother to marke authority is giuen to set iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyond the riuer p. 7.25 euen al that knowe the lawe of God and to teach all that know it not and whosoeuer will not obey the law of God the kings lawe saith that statute let him haue iudgemēt without delay whether it be vnto death or punishment to confiscation of goodes or to imprisonment What lawe did euer any prince make more plaine without any regard to a pretended conscience wanting true grounde out of the law of god For if that might either then or nowe be allowed what lawe coulde holde against which he that list not to be reformed would not obiect his erroneous conscience VVhat gouernment could any prince in the world settle and establish Away therefore with this idle dreame of a pretended conscience and marke how neuer in any gouernment it was regarded after waies and meanes vsed for the reformation of it but euer subiected to the penaltie of the lawe beeing indeede an obstinacy both against god and prince worthy punishment In the newe testament is it not saide Luk. 14.23 Goe into the high vvaies anà compell to come in that my house my be full I forgotte to remember you of that lawe and penall statute made by the king of Ninive Ionah 3. which was so well liked of god but you may now thinke of it and adde it to the rest of the olde testament If we looke at practise Polonia Russia Lituania were forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auntient Idols Munst Cosm 4. p. 894.902 L. 3. p. 719.74 and to receiue baptisme Good princes also maintained long and sharpe warres to compell the Saxons and Vandals to the faith c. The lawes of this realme blessed be god force to nothing but what is directly prooued in scripture And the constraint is not outragious with fire and sword but tempered with mercy that is free from losse of life and limme such as the true Church of god neuer disliked and Christian princes alwaies vsed with great and good successe It is tempered also with good instruction to forsake error wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced Romish Catholicks revenge the smallest contempt of their idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments Their prelats make it their occupation to persecute to death all sorts ages and Sexes which refuse their schoole-tricks or dregges of their Clementines or decretalls Howe then can they finde fault with any due compulsion full of mercy and profit to

that good woman Lydia the purple seller 〈◊〉 16. whose heart was also opened This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened ●hes 1.17 lightned that they might knowe c. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians and of this speaketh Elihu in the booke of Iob ●lip 1.9 ●lost 1.9 There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding Iob 32.8 This did king Dauid knowe and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer often saying Teach me O Lord teach me thy statutes teach me thy waies open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonderfull things in thy lawe Origen saith Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons but as he hath done he will doe and heare the desires of his children that wish to know his will This is the way mother this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it neither will it faile you But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures howsoeuer others abuse and mis-construe them In a worde therefore marke I beseech you that we doe not affirme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture for so there should neede no exposition but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collection and conference in scripture M Sonne I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in regarding the doctours as they doe S. Surely mother I doe confesse the doctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Catholickes Doctoures And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that behalfe First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri Not our Lords but our leaders And therfore S. Augustin saith Other writers or fathers besides the holy scriptures I read in this sort that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so but because they are able to perswade me so either by Canonicall writers or els by some likely reason Likewise againe This kind of writings meaning the holy doctoures must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing but with libertie to iudge each thing For we may not consent to the bishops notwithstanding they be Catholike ●nit Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scriptures This is the right credit of holy fathers they are not the trueth of God it selfe but onely witnesses vnto the trueth no more haue they they thēselues euer desired no lesse ought we euer to giue them Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy Fortunat. ●●t 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater ep 19. c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders and to that ende the Lord hath giuen thē as excellent lights to his church So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs that the former are reiected by the later c. Likewise Panormitan saith vve ought to giue more credit to on lay man then to an whole councell and to the Pope if he bring better authority and more reason This is my first obseruatiō in this matter of the doctours My secōd is this which I humbly pray you to marke that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques so haue fathers and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings so must we the other also for the same reason The Arrian heretiques alleadged Origens bookes for their defence and safegard Socr. l. 4. c. Concil Ch act 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian as also of other holy writers and of the holy father Saint Athanasius Another of his sect cryed this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice p. ●●7 and not to weary you with many Dioscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon 〈◊〉 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregory Cyrill I varie not from them in any point I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly but remaining expressed in their bookes Therefore you see good mother that heretiques haue cried as well fathers fathers as scriptures scriptures and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please whereof I assure you we haue notable examples with many things moe but that I feare to be troublesome vnto you M. Yet sonne seeing our faith was long before yours me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you S. And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many yeares before any of the fathers Surely if your faith were before ours Old faith as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side and indeed both would make for you New faith the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth and not their own writings as you haue seene But good Mother they abuse you and many moe that tell you your faith that is as nowe you meane the Romish faith was before ours for I assure you it is not so but very newe and younge in comparison of ours M. What our faith newe Sonne yours old Alas I see these

boast of disputation or say they haue prospered by it for we neede not to feare them God be blessed nor they to bragge of any winning There neuer wanted yet neither euer shall want both learned and vnlearned on our side whose spirits they shall not be able to resist writing preaching disputing they are the Gospels weapons and waies to build by Popery must take sōe other course as yet in all times they haue done which holde that plough O that for further proofe of this point mē would be content without preiudice to read the Acts monuments of this our natiue countrie and English Church where we liue marking with a minde desirous of trueth what answers haue beene made by simple women maides and girles vnto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion faith to the great astonishment of their aduersaries the high glorie of God seene in their weaknesse so strengthened by him But nothig can bee more grieuous to that Church then to graunt leaue to doe this which surely bewrayeth they are afraide Hence come their lies and slaunders invented against that book which would full soone be discried of vs woulde we reade it If any haue beene in Westminster ball at tharraignment of a misdoer we willingly heare him a whole day to tell vs the manner of it what was obiected what answered what replyed and what concluded yet we will not read with our owne eies hauing it so notably penned for vs the conventings of holy Christian men and women before their iudges for matter of faith and saluation We wil talke of disputation disputations and ô that men might be allowed to speake freely without daunger of lawe what they are able and when the time was for theirs to speake what they would or coulde and wee stoode at the barre in bolts and yron to answere their obiections and profound learning we will not nowe reade what was then done said on both sides Surely I will say of that booke what I wish tried that after the ground of holy scriptures it will yeelde the greatest contentment Men shall see men women shall see women age shall see age and youth youth brought to the triall howe they answered howe they suffered howe flesh startled howe the spirit conquered and in a worde howe God shewed his mercie and power infinite waies If we finde they speake well we may embrace it if otherwise leaue it The Lord hath giuen vs wisdome and reason and of his grace also I trust to be able to discerne if we would reade O why should our enemies hoodwincke vs so that we must neuer see but with their eies If the charge of this book be to much for one an whole parish might ioyne together and vse it by turners as leisure serued M. Sonne I see you are ready for eueuery way and therefore hauing gone thus farre in triall of what you could say and now being come to our iourneys ende I will goe no further with you at this time but reserue the particular pointes of controuersie till wee haue some fitte leisure and opportunity againe S. Good Mother when and howe you please But nowe ere we part I beseech you let me speake something to you with out offence I will not say much M. Speake on you shall doe more Then as yet you haue done if you any way offend me S. 〈◊〉 religious ●●ite or a ver●ous child to 〈◊〉 mother My suite is then most deare mother with a melting heart of an humble childe that you would vouchsafe to thinke of that which hath nowe beene spoken as also of this feare full course which you haue to long liked of in not comming to Church not receiuing the sacrament not hearing Gods word not obeying the lawes of your dread and gratious Soueraigne and of your natiue countrie It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best it hurteth my father daunteth your children blemisheth your house and wrongeth your friendes both neare deare most grieuously But ô father I say againe my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see howe he is eclipsed by it in comparison of others to whome he is no way inferiour either in birth in liuing in wisdome and experience or in any gift in body or minde neither hath his countrie that good from him or he that good from his countrie that might be had if you were reformed For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad that cannot be obeied of his owne at home His children therefore want him his friends want him his seruants want him yea he himselfe wanteth himselfe many times to his griefe Other things also I could name that better may be conceiued in your tender loue towardes him then by me expressed at this time O mother pardon your owne flesh in speaking thus boldly to you and knowe that it is but a part of your selfe that speaketh to your selfe in tender louect dutie When first my father matched with you he hoped of strēgth countenance euery way to be increased to him both by your selfe and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath indued you and by your friendes and house to whome by this marriage he should be vnited not of any abashment and abatement in al these to him and his poore children the pledges of loue betwixt you And thus might it be it you would but alas thus is it not because hitherto you would not A fewe false charmers haue sunke deeper into your heart with their deceits then all your best friendes can with their faithful aduertisements And what is this els in you and others of your perswasion but that which euer hath bin done by the olde serpent the head and guide of these charmers In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the Iewes hating deadly the trueth of the Gospell preached by the Apostles and desirous to vexe them for it deuised this as the best means to stirre vp certaine honest and devout women against them which women should vvork with their friendes to expell such preachers from amongest them Nowe why women but because Satan hath euer had his aduātage against this weake vessell why devout women but becavse a religious minde meaning well yet wāting knowledge is both quicklyer deceiued with shewe of religion and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth doing more hurt in that false deuotion then many others not so well thought of And why honourable women but that might being added to blinde zeale both by power and example Satans cause might goe forwarde These charmers saith the Apostle againe shall still be creeping into houses lead captiue simple women By which often repeated name of women in the scripture all good women are effectually warned to beware Were there cause for you or any others thus to doe it no way could stand with religion to diswade you and in my selfe to you Mother it should be a double sinne because I am yours and aboue all wordly fauours ought to wish your eternall