SOME ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE LATE BOOK Of the REVEREND DEAN of St. PAVLS By a Conformable Clergy-Man Let your moderation be known unto all men the Lord is at hand Phil. 4.4 But if you bite and devour each other take heed that ye be not consumed of one another Gal. 5.15 LONDON Printed for Nathaniel Ranew at the Kings Arms in St. Pauls-Church-Yard 1681. Some Additional Remarques on the late Book of the Reverend Dean of St. PAULS c. SIR I Have read the Reflections on the Preface to Dr. Stilling-fleet's late Book You have imposed another task on me and that is to make some Remarques also on the Book it self The Learned Doctor had said in his Sermon that he dared to say That if most of the Preachers at this day in the separate Congregations were soberly asked their judgments Whether it were lawful for the people to join with them in the publick Assemblies they would not deny it This Mr. Alsop says he believes they would flatly deny and speaks it with confidence To which the Dr. replies I think no man doubts of his confidence that ever looked into his book but in this matter he is so brisk that he saith he doth not question that he should carry it by the poll and is withall so indiscreet as on this occasion to triumph in the poll of Nonconformists at Guildhall as though all that gave their votes there had owned these principles of separation for which many of those Gentlemen will give him little thanks and is a very unreasonable boasting of their numbers Page 107. This I think is one of the wildest conclusions that ever was inferred from any assertion The Dr. had said that he dared to affirm that most Nonconformist Ministers would acknowledg if they were asked the lawfulness of peoples joining in publick Assemblies Mr. A. is of another opinion and believes they i.e. the Nonconforming Ministers would flatly deny it and says he Let these men be brought to the poll I question not they will carry it and I suppose that though the Dr. preached in the Chappel he never took the poll of the Nonconformists i.e. the Preachers in Guildhall The meaning of all which is plainly no more but this Mr. A. believes that more of the Nonconforming Ministers would deny than affirm the lawfulness of joining in Parochial Churches and that if they were numbred those that are for the negative would carry it And to rebate the Drs. confidence of the affirmative he adds that tho' he preached in the Chappel yet he never took the poll of the Nonconformists in the Hall and therefore may be out and mistaken concerning them How can the Dr. infer from hence that Mr. A. doth indiscreetly triumph in the number of Noncon's in general when he spake only of their Preachers How can he infer that Mr. A. would suggest that all that gave their votes there did own the principles of separation when he spake not one word concerning them Some men may want persons to libel and expose but at this rate 't will be hard to want pretences and occasions for it and the Dr. deserves as little thanks for traducing Mr. A. as he would have deserved if he had reported the Gentlemen that gave their Votes at Guildhall as friends to the principles of separation P. 114. The Dr. having discoursed the inconvenience of Separation upon a conceit of purer administrations and less defective ways of worship and represented the ignorance pride injudiciousness and conceitedness of the ordinary sort of zealous professors and the ungovernable and factious humor of that sort of people and the pernicious consequence of complying with them in the words of Mr. B. he enquires And must the reins be laid on their necks that they may run whither they please because for sooth they know what is good for their souls better than the King doth and they love their souls better than the King doth and the King cannot bind them to hurt famish or endanger their souls To the Drs. question I shall reply by asking another Must the people be tied neck and heels together because they are proud ignorant and injudicious or because they are inclinable to faction and ungovernable Is there no medium betwixt laying the reins upon the neck and tying that and their heels together Betwixt permitting them a boundless liberty and giving them none at all Surely methinks 't were not difficult to see an intermediate space between extremes so vastly distant from each other And let me add Do not the people know what Preaching and Preachers do them most good what convinces their judgments bows their wills enlivens their affections and creates upon their souls the clearest and most passionate resolutions for the service of God and their own salvation If they do not know these things they are not men but brutes Do not men know which meat and drink doth best strengthen and nourish and is least offensive to their stomacks and digestive faculties This I think will be granted and may they not know what sort of preaching doth best edifie and build them in spiritual strength and stature And is it any dishonour to the King that the people know these things better than he does Or doth that person lay blame upon the King that should affirm it And yet this is that which the Doctor seems to insinuate for he enquires Why must the King bear all the blame if mens souls be not provided for according to their wishes that is if they have not such preaching and preachers as they would have But though the King be not to be blamed that mens souls be no better provided for there be men in the world that are to be blamed for it and who they are let the Doctor conjecture There are Preachers in this Church that have the cure of Souls to whom an honest Country Farmer would scarce commit the care of his Cows 'T is an expression of Causinus And who gave these pâ—rsons admission into the sacred Office every one knows But the Dr. proceeds Doth the King do any thing in this matter but according to the established Law and Orders of this Church why did he not keep to the good old Phrase of King and Parliament This is raking into old fores and looks like a malicious insinuation and a design of representing Mr. B. as il-loyal which to speak softly becomes not the charity and candor of the Doctor But what if he had kept that good old Phrase as he pleases to call it he had done no more than the Doctor himself doth in sense in the lines preceeding for he says the King doth nothing but by established Laws and Laws are the Acts of King and Parliament But the Doctor goes on And why did he i. e. Mr. B. not put it as it ought to have been that they know what makes for their own edification better than the wisdom of the whole Nation assembled in Parliament i. e. according to the good
no schism in the body but that all the members should take care of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one for another and therefore the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is very aptly used against schisms and divisions and adds I should think that St. Chrysostom Theodoret and Theophilact all understood the importance of a Greek phrase as well as our Author and they all make no scruple to interpret it of the peace and concord of Christians And although Austin did not understand much Greek yet he knew the general sense of the Christian Church about this place and he particularly applies it to the peace of the Church in St Cyprian 's case By this tast now says the Dr. let any man judg of the depth of this man's Learning or rather the height of his confidence who dares to tâ—ll the world that the Universal stream and current of all Expositors is against my sense of this Text and for this universal stream besides Grotius who speaks exactly to the same sense with mine quotes only Tirinus and Zanchy and then cries in a word they all conspire against my interpretation And within a few lines he adds But had it not been fairer dealing in one word to have referred us to Mr. Pool's Synopsis for if he had looked into Zanchy himself he would have found how sharply he applied it against Dissenters in the Church And in p. 203. after he had made him Advocate-General for Schismaticks by an Oration put into his mouth and pronounced before St. Austin Cyprian and other great opposers of Schism thus he speaks Judg now Reader whether the Causes of the present Separation as they are laid down â—y my Adversary do not equally defend the Donatills in their Schism and his making so light of Schism doth not give encouragement to men to make more But I shall not send him so far back as Austin and Cyprian for better instruction in this matter but I shall send him to one whose Writings he is better acquainted with even Mr. Baxter And in page 304 the Dr. compares him with Andrelinus of whom Erasmus says That he was a good Poet but his Verses wanted one syllable and that was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in English brains and this because Mr. A. had said That National Churches destroy the being of other Churches under them which says the Dr. I utterly deny and there wants nothing but proof To all this I shall reply as followeth If Mr. A. do intermix any pleasantness in his discourse 't is presently condemned as trifling and he compared with Carmen and Porters If he give his Readers any divertisement by intermingling some Wit and Fancy with his Reasonings he is scurrilous and compared to Martin an Author I confess that I never had the misfortune to read but â—e is sufficiently famed for railing If he intersperse a little saltness among his Ratiocinations he is ungentile and a Buffoon which is the Title wherewith a Gentleman hath lately graced him in a Reply to his Book What shall Mr. A. do in this case and how shall he please these Gentlemen Would they have him turn fool to humour them and lay aside his Wit which makes his Writings the more savoury and grateful to do them a pleasure I do not find that those that have replied to him have laid any obligation upon him to do them such a kindness and I think he will be loath to purchase their favour and good will at so dear a rate But Mr. A. hath interpreted the Greek Phrases before mentioned otherwise than Chrysostome Theodoret Theoplylact and St. Austin and what then is he the only person that hath interpreted Texts of Scripture contrary to the opinion and judgments of those Fathers do not all Expositors almost do the same do not the Papists though otherwise obliged by the Decrees of the Council of Trent do it does not the admired Hugo Grotius do it and I dare say this excellent Dr. himself understands very many Texts of Scripture in other senses than the ancient Fathers did expound them Whether Mr A. have rightly interpreted the Texts in Controversie I will not determine but this I will say he may be a Learned man though he may have expounded them otherwise than St. Chrysostome St. Theodoret c. Whether the universal current of all Expositors be against the Dr's sense of his Text as Mr. A. affirms I know not for my Library is not furnished with all the Commentators in the world nor will I say that Mr. A. did look into lanchy himself and not transcribe what he quotes from Mr. Pooles Synopsis but this I think I may say that I see no convincing evidence that Mr. A. did not peruse that Author himself and transcribe the words from him and not from Mr. Pool and therefore I humbly conceive the Dr. hath affirmed or at least insinuated more than he hath proved viz. that Mr. A's quotations are transcribed from the Synopsis Criticorum and not from the Authors themselves But if Mr. A. must be a Pigmy in Learning what honour is it then for the very great and learned Dr. to beat and overcome him Let it be granted therefore for once that Mr. A. is not the most learned or best-read man in the world and that there are some yea many that have learned and read much more than he but what then he may be a Master of Reason and a man of some tolerable judgment not withstanding those defects or else many great men and some that are in great reputation for wisdom must be numbred among Dolts and sit in the Classis of Fools he may be able to understand the sense of a Text of Scripture and the dependance and connexion of it with the precedent and consequent Verses and the scope and design of the Author therein These things may be done by men of competent understanding and I think that will be granted to Mr. A. though they never read all the Books in the Bodleian Library or in some that are more meanly furnished and 't is some mens opinion that the greatest Readers are not always the most judicious men and that if some very worthy men had read less they might have understood more Hence I think I may infer that though Mr. A. should not have read St. Chrysostome c. nor many modern Commentators yet he may be capable of expounding a Text of Scripture with the probability of truth as well as those that have read them all And whereas it hath pleased the Learned Dr. to entitle him Advocate-General for Schismaticks I am not satisfied that Mr. A. hath given any just reason for it 'T is true he hath said that some little and petty inconveniences arising from the levity and volubility of mers minds is more eligible than the enslaving mens judgments and consciences and surrendring their reason to naked will and pleasure even as 't is better to have a rational soul though subject to mistakes than the soul of a brute
of God and why must they assent to and subscribe the lawfulness of the use of the Cross in Baptism with more that might be mentioned Are these things certain and so clear and obvious that an honest man can't doubt of them Are these things necessary Cannot a man be a Minister or a Christian that doth not nor cannot believe them This cannot or at least ought not to be imagined or affirmed why then doth the Church of England require Ministers to subscribe unto them and why must none of the Laity dispute the truth of them What reason can be alledged for it but it s own good will and pleasure I know no other that can be given of it thither it must be referred at last And whether this be not to exercise an Empire over the judgments and consciences of men and to command the surrender of their reason to naked will and pleasure I leave to consideration It hath the likeness and appearance of it and how the Church of England will fairly free themselves of it I do not yet discern I would be glad to see it done for the exercise of Empire over the consciences of men in uncertain and unnecessary things is a very evil and mischievous thing an Engine of the Devil by which I do believe he hath done more mischief in the Church of God than by all the Heathen persecutions and I know no end is served by it unless it be to choak conscientious men for all men of conscience are not Latitudinarians nor like to be in my apprehension The sum of what I have said in these three last Paragraphs is this Mr. A. hath said some little and petty inconveniencies arising from the levity and inconstancy of mens minds is more eligible than the prostituting mens consciences and resigning them to the naked wills of men which is no more than most Protestants have said before him Separations are various some proceed upon reasons apparently true and these are a necessary duty some proceed upon reasons apparently false and these are greatly sinful and intollerable others proceed upon probable reasons which though specious and fair yet are not concluding these are not without sin yet must be endured an inconvenience being better than a mischief And this I conceive is the separation which the Dr. says Mr. A. makes very light of which yet I do not beileve unless it be comparatively and for the sake of which I do not think him worthy of the appellation of Advocate-general for Schismaticks The Church of England doth not pretend to be infallible but is as peremptory in its determinations as if it were It imposes nothing grosly false and against common sense and reason but it requires things unnecessary and uncertain with an unyielding rigour and this looks like tyranny and if the Church of England think it self defamed by that insinuation it may vindicate it self if it can To the Drs. insinuation that Mr. A is not much acquainted in the Writings of Cyprian and St. Austin and that he hath been more conversant in those of Mr. B. I might enquire where is the Proof and what evidence doth this Learned man produce for the confirmation of it I have looked his Book all over but I can find none nor do I imagine what hath given occasion to the Dr. to think so 't is true Mr. A doth not quote those Fathers in his Book but doth it follow from thence that he never read them There are many Books which the Excellent Dr. himself hath never quoted in any of his writings but he that should infer from thence that he never read them would certainly injure and traduce him But Mr. A. is a Dissenter and peradventure for that reason must be an unlearned and unread man whose reason must be as weak therefore as his reading is small and there must be no more argument in his discourse than there was of Wit or Brains in Andrelinus his Poems which to speak modestly is a scurrilous comparison and not becoming the Pen of the Reverend Dr. Mr. B. had said something in his Answer to the Drs. Sermon of the Peoples Power or right of choosing or at least consenting to the choice of their own Pastors whereupon he says that Mr. B. is very tragical upon this argument and keeps not within tollerable bounds of discretion in pleading the Peoples Right or Cause against Magistrates Patrons and Laws p. 307. And p. 329. he says Mr. B. is unsatisfied with any Laws that are made in this matter and in the same page he says that one would think by Mr. B 's Doctrine all Laws about Patronage are void in themselves and all Rights of Advouson in the King Noblemen Gentlemen and the Vniversities are meer usurpations and things utterly unlawful among Christians since he makes such a personal obligation to choose their own Pastors to lie on the People that they cannot transfer it by their own Act. To which I reply Mr. B. will be well enough satisfied if the People may have the liberty of consenting to the Pastor that by the Patron is presented to them and what is there of unreasonableness in such a design or proposal Blessed be God there are in England many worthy Gentlemen that take care of the disposal of their Livings and present sober and learned men unto them and in my observation such persons are usually acceptable to the People and they consent to them without objection or opposition but then it must be acknowledged that there are many others that take no care of the disposal of them some are Papists and give their Livings to the nomination of their Servants and they sell them to whomsoever will give most for them others are prophane Sensualists and such men will present vitious debauched persons Piety and a sober Conversation may preclude but will never commend a man to their presentation And what if for these reasons and more that might be mentioned the people had a consenting power permitted to them are the Rights of Patronage invaded or abdicated injured or destroyed thereby Hath not the Bishop power in some cases to refuse the Clerk that is presented to him for institution and is the Patrons right evacuated by it Surely no I never heard any such thing affirmed or pretended and if the Patrons right may be preserved with a power of just and reasonable dissent and consent in the Bishop it may be also preserved with the same power in the people Are not Patrons right preserved unless they may impose upon the people ignorant and scandalous Ministers that are neither able nor willing to Preach the Doctrines of Faith and Godliness are not their rights preserved unless they have the liberty of presenting whom they list and sending them such Preachers as instead of being ensamples to the flock in Piety Justice Charity and Sobriety shall be ensamples of Impiety Cruelty Injustice and Intemperance unto them If it should be said that such cannot procure Orders nor
will never agree unless it be in a few plain great and necessary things and that in multitudes of lesser things they will dissert for ever and that in this diversity of understandings 't is impossible it should be otherwise and that under this diversity of apprehensions there will be some diversity of practises too where men fear God and have a value for their own Consciences and the suggestions thereof is he fit to bear the Office of a Bishop or a Priest that is ignorant of these things surely he is very little acquainted in the great variety and imperfections of humane minds that thinks that all Christians will ever be of one mind in many lesser things and he is as little acquainted with the Consciences of men that thinks honest Christians will be of the same practice where their judgments are so much divided I will conclude this Paragraph with the following Story which will serve to evince the incurableness of some peoples jealousies and scruples and I 'le do it in the words of the person that sent it to me I know a Gentlewoman whose Parents were of the Congregational persuasion and such was her education nâ—vertheless after her marriage her husband being conformable she accompanied him to the publick worship of God and this she did for some years but all this time her scruples and her fears and the jealousies of her Conscience did so plague and torment her that she had little or no comfort in her life yea heâ— bodily health was very much weakned and impaired by the perturbations of her mind this having been her condition for some years at length she forsook the publick and established worship betook her self to a Congregational Church and now lives in peace and tollerable heath The Gentlewoman I do believe is truly pious and conscientious and doth avow that could she be satisfied of the lawfulness of attending on the publick way of worship she would do it with all her heart Her reason and arguments may be easily answered and she may be silenced and one would think her judgment satisfied but her scruples return again like a Torrent and she cannot resist them and in plain English are incurable without some very great and transforming impressions from above And this is no rare or single case but what often occurs as those men know that converse with the consciences of Christians The Dr. returns again to the Author of the Letter out of the Countrey pag. 376. and thus he speaks concerning him The main force of what he saith i.e. the Author of that Letter lyes in this that those that cannot conquer thier scruples as to Communion with our Church must either return to the state of Paganism or set up new Churches by joining with the ejected Ministers To which the Dr. replies This is new Doctrine and never heard of in the days of the old Puritans for they supposed men obliged to continue in the communion of this Church although there were some things they scrupled and could not conquer those scruples and this they supposed to be far enough from Paganism The old Puritans did suppose that those that scrupled Ministerial communion were obliged to continue as Lay-men in the communion of this Church But what is this to those that scruple Lay-commuion which is the case of many now in England And what shall these people do they must either communicate against their Consciences or joyn with the ejected Ministers or live as Pagans and which it is the Dr. will advise them to I cannot tell but 't is possible we may know hereafter If he should say they must put off their scruples and communicate with the license and approbation of their consciences I say so too 'T is their duty to endeavour it but what if after all the endeavours they can use they cannot disentangle their minds from them what shall they do then I beseech the Learned Dr. to give some directions to these scrupulous persons in this case In the same Page the Dr. desires to know whether as often as men do scruple joyning with others their separation be lawful And I do desire to know whether all unlawful separation be intollerable and whether all Schismaticks that are truly so must be imprisoned ruined and undone or sent to Cancasus and the Caspian Mountains When the Dr. hath answered this enquiry peradventure he may receive and Answer to the other if he cannot answer it himself The D. adds in the same and the following Page If it be lawful to separate as often as men scruple the lawfulness of joyning in communion with out Church 't is in vain to talk of any setled Constitution whether Episcopal Presbyterian or Independent for this Principle overthrows them all To which I answer I do not think it lawful to separate as often as men scruple joyning in communion yet I do believe it lawful to tolerate some unlawful separations yea and necessary too but let no unnecessary occasions of scruple and separation be given Let no separations for the sake of undoubted truths and the great essentials of Faith and Godliness be allowed Let the Congregations in the Nation be furnished with pious and holy Ministers and some discipline exercised in them and 't will be found that the number of Separatists will not be great and a stop will be put to the progress and encrease of them and a few years will reduce them almost to none for if the Causes of Separation be looked into they will be found to be the imposing and requiring of unnecessary and doubtful things ignorant and scandalous Preachers and undisciplined Churches Whether these things will justifie it I will not say but that they are the main Causes of it cannot be denied by any considering man And if these be not removed Separation will be continued unless the Popish method of Cure be undertaken viz. Fire and Faggot Racks and Tortures Confiscations and Punishments which certainly are Remedies that were never taught by Christ Jesus the Lover and Saviour of mankind but by the Devil the great enemy hater and destroyer of them And let me add further that I see no reason to infer that toleration of Separation upon tolerable scruples will destroy all Government in the Church for I think there was a Government in the Church when the Novatians were tolerated both at Rome and Constantinople for some hundreds of years as the Doctor very well knows and I hope we have a Government in the Nation though some men transgress the established Laws thereof yea and are permitted so to do with impunity Yet I would distinguish between Separation in the bud and blossome and Separation ripe and grown as 't is with us in England and I would say that some things may be done and some severities used to crush and prevent the encrease of it when budding which may not be done to extinguish and root it out when it s grown and encreased and the number of those that separate is very great and numerous Some few single Schismaticks not that are made such by unnecessary Impositions but such as make themselves such by unreasonable and unwarrantable scruples and objections may after the use of admonition teaching and instruction and a patient waiting for the success of them be treated with some rigor and moderate harshness But thousands and ten thousands are too many either to be laid in Gaols or sent to the barren deserts of Arabia or other Countreys at lesser distance from us Page 378. The Learned Dr. wonders that none of those who have undertaken to defend the cause of Separation have taken any care to put stop to it or to let us know where we may fix and see an end of it which scruples are to be allowed and what not and whether it be lawful to separate as long as men can go on in scruples and say they cannot conquer them Mr. B I suppose is one of them which the Doctor believes hath undertaken to defend the cause of Separation and I wonder the Doctor should not observe that he hath taken care to put a stop to it and let us know what scruples are to be allowed and what not Hath he not said over and over even to times without number That a difference is to be made betwixt tolerable and intolerable scruples and errors betwixt scruples that may be defended by probable reasons and such as have nothing to be pleaded on their behalf but apparent and obvious falshoods betwixt scruples about unnecessary and disputable things and such as are about necessary and undoubted truths and so owned and confessed by all Christians and in saying this he hath told us what scruples are to be allowed and what not and where to put a stop to Separation 'T is true these are but general rules to direct us by in judging of allowable and unallowable errors and scruples and where and when to put a stop to Separations but the application of them to particular cases is not difficult and since errors and scruples are infinite I hope the Dr. will not nor doth not expect that Mr. Baxter should name all particularly that are tolerable and intolerable this were to set him and Employment that might last to the worlds end if he could live so long and would prevent his writing of Books to the offence of his Conformable brethren but I think would please many of them very well who are willing to be rid of him and his Books But Sir I have in obedience to your commands put my Sickle too far into other mens Harvests and therefore will here put a period to my Remarks Besides I hear Mr. B. hath replied to the Learned Dr. and that his Book is abroad in the world though I have not seen it as yet living as you know at a great distance and in a small Village that hath little commerce wit London I know you will pardon all the faults and imperfections of these hasty Lines and when you have read them do what you please with them I am SIR Your very true Friend and Servant