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A18003 A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582. Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588? 1582 (1582) STC 4654; ESTC S107537 141,619 356

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liued but they were not ●…n Hell Ergo neither this fyre nor ●…lague was in Hell for it touched ●…he liuing and not the dead Anna the mother of Samuel in her song sayth that it is the Lord that killeth and maketh aliue that bringeth downe to the graue and ●…ayseth vp I maruell why they y ● translated the Bible at Geneua doo translate Sheol the graue in this place a little before Hell It is God that killeth and reuiueth that bringeth to deathe ●…r to the graue ●…r to deaths doore restoreth health againe If hée should bringe downe into Hel hee coulde not rayse them vp againe because y ● in Hell there is no redemption This place is vnderstanded of that place or of that miserye out of the which GOD canne ray●… manne vp but out of Hell he ray●… seth none therefore wee muste vn●… derstand it of the Graue Deathe misery out of the which he hath●… and doth deliuer many The same sense is in other woord●… in Deuteronomy 32. cap. verse 39. I kill and giue life I wounde an●… make hole And in Toby and in ●… booke of Wisdome For thou haste●… the power of life and deathe an●… leadest downe into the gates of hell and bringest vp againe The old translation doth translat●… Vnto the gates of deathe and 〈◊〉 they take Hades for death not fo●… hel as y e english doth As the cloud●… saith Iob vanisheth away so he tha●… goeth downe to the graue commeth vp no more Thus much Iob. wherby we vnderstand that a man being layd in the graue shall not rise ti●… y ● last day Then shall he rise again Iob was in like perplexitye and 〈◊〉 the like misery in the 14. chapter 〈◊〉 therefore desireth to be layd in 〈◊〉 graue or in some place vnder 〈◊〉 earth that therby he might es●…e all miseries ●…ope saith Iob for no ease no re●…se of my payne no remedye all ●…y hope is gone I hope for no●…nge but the graue my breathe is ●…rrupted my bowells consumed ●…y bones ake my dayes are spente ●…ely the graue tarieth for me ●…ere is in this first verse of the 17. ●…apter Chebar put for Sheol there 〈◊〉 Sheol defined Iob complaineth that the wicked ●…e without paine griefe go to ●…eathe and graue as it weere in a ●…eete slomber Thus dothe Munster Vatablus ●…o Iude Pellicane and Oecolampadius translate this word Sheol ●…nd the Gréeke Interpretors haue ●…he same sense and the 32. verse ●…athe Lecabaroth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 72. ●…nterpretors the graues neither is ●…here any rest in hell Iob declaring the power of 〈◊〉 in creating the world his pr●… ence in foreseing his spirit in 〈◊〉 shing his wisdome in ordering ●… hid goodnes in preseruing say●… neither the graue neither y e 〈◊〉 ter of the grounde is hidde from eyes And here haue they transl●… Sheol Hell against reason aga●… the nature of the word against propertie of the tongue and aga●… the meaning of the holy Ghost By the worde Abadon the 〈◊〉 brues vnderstande whatsoeuer conteyned in the earthe which open to the eyes of the Lord. I woulde rather vnderstande of Gods power wherby he is 〈◊〉 to rayse our bodyes putrified the Graues and cleane consu●… to dust Dauid being either ●…ore vexed conscience because of his acte ●… fence in causing Vrias to be sla●… and taking his wife Bersaba or 〈◊〉 ing sicke in bodie or afflicted 〈◊〉 enemies desireth God that he ●…ight liue and continewe a tyme healthe that he mighte be wayle 〈◊〉 acte repente with teares con●…e his faulte entreat for mercy ●…e God with humilitie obtayne ●…geuenes because saith he I 〈◊〉 perswaded that no man in the ●…aue canne praise thee none after ●…eathe canne aske forgiuenes paci●… thine indignation nor to haue ●…y hope of saluation Whersoeuer ●…e tree falleth there it lyeth The graue saith Ezechias kinge 〈◊〉 Iuda cannot confesse thee ●…eath cannot praise thee they that ●…e downe into the pitte canne not ●…ope nor be able to shew thy truth ●…mbros de bono mortis c. 2. Cyprianus ●…tra Demetri tractat ●… Hysichius lib. ●… in Leu. cap. 19. The same woordes in a manner the same sense is in Psal. 115. 17. ●…reacher 9 10. Steuchus and 〈◊〉 Romish Catholiques expounde ●…his place as I do in all poyntes Dauid triumphing that he had 〈◊〉 led Golias and giuing god tha●… therefore wisheth or rather is 〈◊〉 perswaded that god would turne●… the wicked into their graues suc●… were gods enemies his as y e P●… listin es Ammonites Moabi●… Dauid did wishe his enemies to●… taken away but not their soules●… hell he wished deathe but not 〈◊〉 nation It had bene against charity to h●… wished their soules in hell Neith●… is Sheol ioyned in anye place w●… the immortall soule whiche ne●… dieth but alwayes with the body which dieth and is buried in Sheo●… in the earth and graue Sheol is alwayes spoken of the 〈◊〉 dy as we see in the swalowing 〈◊〉 of Dathan Core Abiron 〈◊〉 went downe quicke into y e earthe euen into Sheol which is though●… to be hell of the ignorant describ●… of the obstinate beloued of y e simple commonly receiued of y e papistes ●…hy dothe the greatest Bible and ●…he Bible printed at Geneua translate Sheol the graue in the 6. Psal. ●…nd here hell Why did they not ●…nsider that the woordes were all ●…ne the sense all one the phrase all ●…ne Why doe they in some place ●…iue the right signification and in ●…ther detort it from the right sense Why doe wee loue darkenes more then lighte falshoode moore then ●…ruth Why do we prefer dreames ●…ables tales and old custome before the right vnderstanding of the scripture If Sheol be onely proper to y e body which soroweth dieth and is buried and applied to no other thing why doe they not translate it in all places alike Dauid being deliuered from the tiranny of Saul and out of the hands of all his ennemies read 2. of the Kinges 22. verse ●… firste thankethe god and secondly telleth howe that he had escaped them The sorrowes of deathe compassed me He meaned Saul and his men who compassed Dauid and his men round about to take them Must not he be sorrowfull that was in daunger of his ennemies that had muche to doe to escape deathe and the tyranny of Saule And the floudes of wickednes made me afraid By floudes is meaned y ● armie of Saul which Saul is called here Belial a wicked and cursed man without the feare God without mercy or grace fierce cruell furious the very childe of perdition therefore called Belial The nexte verse folowing is all one with this The sorrowes of the graue haue compassed me about The sorrowes of the graue and
the faithfull is the high way to felicitye and faith is the saluation of our soules 1. Pet. 1. 9. The assumptiō is prooued by Iosephus who faith that Adam confessed his fault and craued pardon for his offence Moreouer Adam did not only confesse his fault but also repented and beleeued in the seede promised And as he and Caua were the first that offended so were they the first that receiued grace and ascended into heauen excepte Abell and Enoch Which is prooued by Salomon or rather by Philo in these wordes Wisdome saythe hée whiche is the sonne of god preserued the first father of all mankind from his offense Is not be saued that is deliuered from his offence from sin from errour but in hell there is no saluation then was h●… in heauen by the same faythe tha●… we haue His faith made Christes death as present to him as though it had béen done in déede for faithe apprehendeth thinges absent and thinges whiche are not subiect to our senses consider Heb. 11. 1. And therfore Christ is killed to the faith of the elect euen from the beginninge of the world And although Castalio and Beza resolueth the latter parte of this 8. vers on this sort whose names are not written from the creation of the world in the booke of life of y e lambe which is killed Nonwithstanding they must nedes conclude that the names of the faithfull are and were written in the booke of life in the ●…iuely booke of the lambe which is heauen for so Christ define the it ●…aynge vnto his disciples Do not glory because that yow haue subdu●…d spirits but because that your ●…ames are written in heauen Is it ●…ny absurdity to place the soules where their names are written Are their names holier then their soules wher good mens names are writtē thither ascend their soules but in heauen are good mens names written then there must nedes be their soules To what vse were it to haue my name written in heauen if my soule shall haue no fruition of heauenly ioyes no contemplation no solace no felicity The disciples were predestinated to this felicity and therfore receiued presently when their tabernacle was dissolued when their soules departed out of the body For they must nedes reape one fruite enioye one felicity whose fayth is all one whose sacraments in effect are all one for bothe haue eaten one spiritual bread dronke one spiritual drink for they dronk of the spirituall rocke whiche is Christ. The red sea expresseth our baptisme The cloude the grace of the holy ghost Moses the highe priest Christ the Israelites the Christians the rocke Christ. Can he come in hel who is forknowne of god predestinated from euerlastinge called of purpose iustified by faithe and consequently glorifyed Ys the forknowledge of god doubtfull Is his predestination mutable Is his calling of purpose vncertain Or our iustificatiō variable Or our glorificatiō ī doubt Adam was gloryfied in y ● presence of god alwayes alwayes elected alwayes in sure hope and in an infallible expectatiō of heauenly felicity To glorify is as y ● papistes terme it to canonise to make saintes to geue felicity to introduce a man into y e incōprehensible ioyes of heauen And to signify a certaintye an infallible truth in electīng calling iustifying glorifyinge he vseth the preterperfect tense as though it were done already and so it is in déed with god shal we measure y e author of time with time or the geeuer of felicity by mans phātasie or the certentie of saluation by the doubtfull iustisiynge of the Papist If Adam were foreknowen fore elected fore appoynted and consequently called glorified how could he come in hel Is there any iustification in Hell any fayth any hope of better lyfe any saluation any remission of sinnes any inuocation of the name of God anye glorificacion anye felicitie Hell is withoute Hope Geenna withoute grace Satan withoute Saluation Tophet without ioye the worme of conscience without solace gnashing of teeth without gladnes Let vs speake of Habel It is saide that Habel beinge dead did speake So is it saide of the Soules of the faithefull in the Reuelacion he is saide to speake whiche lyueth then Habel and all the faithfull do liue because they speake also because that God is the God of the lyuinge and not of the dead Moreouer by this worde speakinge is painted forth his felicitie which hee hath en ioyed from his martirdome hitherto for Christe saith that who so euer shall lose his lyfe in this world for Gods cause and religion as hee did shal fynde it agayn in the next but if he should goe to Hel after his death as our romishe Catholickes doo teache and affirme it were an euill exchaunge and the death wil lingly receiued for his cause or religion very slenderly recompensed but Habel was found iuste and is so called both of Christe and of S. Paul There is none iuste but hee that beleeueth for as S. Paul saith whatsoeuer is not done of faith is synne the iust man lyueth by faith Habel was iust therfore he lyued by his fayth There is in this sentence of Habel thrée thinges to be noted faithe ●…ustice and immortall life Iustice is the frée gift mercy and goodnes of god geuen vnto man by fayth fayth bringeth immortality or euer lasting felicity for the perfection of faythe is felicity faythe endeth where immortality beginneth then hath faith done his part when yt hathe obtayned y e whiche it trusted vpon and then ceaseth hope when yt enioyeth that which yt hoped for then remayneth charity w e S. Paul sayth is the gretest of the thre because it contineweth florisheth for euer among y e saītes Herin doth Ireneus erre affirmīg that faythe and hope remaine after this lyfe For he supposeth that all mens soules from the beginning of the world are kept in a secret place abiding or wayting for y e last day and therefore to beleue and hope stil. But Salomō or rather Philo saythe in the 4. chapter of the booke of wisdome The iuste thoughe they dye before their tyme or beinge younge yet they are in reste Augustine calleth Habel a virgin a priest a iust man and a marti●… hee hath deserued sayeth hee the crown of martyrdome this crown is felicitie vnto the whiche wee are bounde to haste vnto If there bee a churche in heauen as wee must needes confesse there is where Christe is being the head then is it an iniquity to denye Habel to be there being the first martyr Bernarde placeth him in heauen because hee receyued deathe pacientlye by his brother Cayne who persecuted hym for hys vertues sake for Abraham Esra an auncient Hebrue Doctor affirmeth that Cayne kylled Habell because hea sayde that vyce shoulde bee punished and Uertue rewarded
Cor. 2. 12. 1. Iohn 4. 1. 2. Cicero To whome Christ preached a true ex position Lyra. Prison is the custome of sinninge Reuel 18. 2. Psal. 142. 7. August vpon Psal. 142. 7. Mimmasgar Prison for the body 72. Inter pretouts haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A true exposion of the 7. v. of the 142. Ps. Munster and Flam. vpō Ps. 142. 7. and the argument of the Ps in Hebrue befor●… the psal Nephes Bede Esay 42. 7. Beza Prison 1. Peter 3. Christ fetched out of hell nether the obedient nor disobedient August Euod Epist. 99. these disobedient were be fore the floud An fallible argument This s●…irite is not Chistes sou●…e An other argu ment To whom pr●… ched Christ A syllogisme Annius vpon Berosus pa. The arke was 7 or 8. forlonges in lengthe Euodius Epist. 99. August Euodius Epist. 99. The. 18. obiection 1. Peter 4 The Gospell preched to th●… dead Dead Te●…tullian ad uersns ma●…cio lib 5. Dead is onely proper to the body The deade Gospell preached to Adam Of this reade my note vpon 1. P●…r 4. This is the truthe The 19 obiect Mich. 2. 13. The 20 obiec tion Iohn 14. 3. what neded Christ to goe prepare aplace when as heauē was empty for as yet there were none in heauen as the Papistes hold Ther is roume ynough where there are none inhabitantes Iohn 13. 21. Iohn 13. 23. Math. 26. 31. Iohn 13. 28. Math. 25. 34. The ●…1 obi●… tion The common Crede The 22. obiec tion Rom. 4. 2●… August de temp serm Tom. 10. Tom. 3. This patche was not in S. August dayes August de Symb. ad Cathe lib. 1. c. 3. 5. lib 3. c. 6. lib. 4. cap. 6. Tom. 9. Tom. 6. Chrisostome expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hades 〈◊〉 Graue Many bodyes 〈◊〉 with Christ. Tom. 4. in ep ad Cor. 15. ho 40. Discendit ad inferna expoū ded ●…om ●… 3. 4. Baptisme Esays meaning is tha●… Cyru●… should breake the barrs of Baby lon and deliuer the Israelites pa. 32 psal 32. Chrisostome hom 75. vpon Math. After this life no helpe Ruffinns who made this crede and when Ruffine crede is in Hierom Tom. 2. and in the proemy apol pamph pro origene The Apostels were authors and rule of all ●…ounde doctrine Iohn herolte whē the crede was made valla can not tell who made it Act. 122. T●… apostels dispersed Simbolum th●… 12. article●… The. 1. articl●… Augustine and Herolt disagre Pseudo Augustine de temp se●… 115 Howe coulde this laines bee at the onncell at Hierusalem Act 15 when as he was kylled by Herode Act. 12. Herolte makethe Iames that was dead to make an Ar ticle Pseud August Discorde August Tom. 3. de fide et Symbolo whiche he addeth in a boke de Symb. ad Cath. Chrisost. Tom 5. de Symb. 〈◊〉 ad in feros expounded Read the 13. obiection Hade Neither haue they all nor orderly Many Credes The first wher in Christes descendinge is lefte out Ignatius in epist ad Mag. Theoderet Poly●…ardns in ●… Past. ad Phil. Iustinus in Apo●…oget 2. Ireneus li. 1. c 2 Tertull. de pr●… scrip pag. 92. 769. Origen in proemi lib. de princ●…pus Gregory Neo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 descended interpreted Burved des cended bothe one Gen. 37. 2. The Councel of N●…ce The Councell of 〈◊〉 Simbolum patrum Stirdion in 〈◊〉 ●…re of 〈◊〉 32. In the yeare of Christ. 35 〈◊〉 Decended into 〈◊〉 Erasmns 〈◊〉 Augnstinus Euod 99. Abrahams bosome Vpon the. 11. chap. of Iohn No soule in heauen till the the resurrection Tom. 8. pag. ●…81 Augustine placethe th●… soules in no better place after Christ then he doth before Rede epist. 99. to Euodius Tom. 4. p. 66 ad Dulcy 8. quest 2. In Euch. c. 109. Tom. 3. Tom. 9. in Iohn 5 tract 19. pa. 172. De eiuit lib. 13. c. 10. Tow. 5. pa. 715. A ●…itel before 〈◊〉 said that the sonles were in Abrahames bosom Discorde Tom. 4. pa. 353. quest Euod lib. 2. c. 3s The 32. obiec tion Iguatius falsi fied Trallis is a 〈◊〉 ty of Asia 〈◊〉 Ignatius wordes * he meaneth the dead bo dies that rose with Christ to whome he gi ueth l●…fe Prosopopoia Actes 2. 24. 〈◊〉 1. 1. * with vs 9. of the clocke ‡ 12 of the clock * 3. of clock at afternoone ‡ The sabaoth * Sonday ‡ in the graue * Friday ‡ Saturday If he had gone to hell what rest should he haue had The 24 obiec Clemens Alex andrinus 215. Strom. 5. 6. Fathers without faith Christ the Apostles p●…ea ched in ●…ell Glements errors confuted Law co●…dem neth Rom. 3. ●…0 4. 15. Gal. 2. 18. 21. Philosophy doth not iustify Coloss. 2. 8. Rom 4. v. 9. 11. 12 13. 14. Abrahā father of the faithful Faith Dilemma Strom. 3. Strom. 1. In protrept Strom 3. 5 The 25. ob●… 〈◊〉 The dirige alleadged Iob was neue●… in hell The 〈◊〉 obiection Pardons Lutz ●…in tract de purgator ●…ope the iudg of the quick dead extra qui fil●…i sunt leg c. per veun Decretalls 4. lib. cap. 13. Tit. 17. Apinus also vpon the 16 Ps. In sermon de resurr The 27. obiection Christ descended into hell to visite his frendes The 28. obiection Christ descended for generall iustice Heb. 7. ●…7 ●…eb 9. 28. 1. Pet. 3. 1●… The 28. obiection He descended for to haue Victory T●…e 30. obiection Ch●…ist descended for an example The 31 obiection Damascene vp on 3. Sent. Christ descended to reproue the deuells ●… The 32. obiection Inf●…tes with out Baptisme dampned Hell proued by poets He might as well haue proued ir by Hom●…r Sillius Claudian if he had red so far ●…sarius Christ descen in●…o hell Samsons gate●… Valerius Maximus The gulfe that Curtius leaped into Limbus patrum Curtius was Christ. Alex de Ale●… part 3 sum 9. 9 Art 4. tom in 3. dist 23. A●… 1 9 1 2 Bonau in 3. dist 22. Art 1 9. 4. Bloud dropped in at the holle where the crosse stood Iohn Baptiste ●…alked in hell Esay●… Zachary Boua●… 3. dist 22. art 1. 9. 3. Thom. in the same dist art 1. 9. 6. The Pope He●…mes Ro●… 16. 14. Math. 11. ●… Many places in hell Sillius lib. 13. Bucchingerus Paradise Paradise papistical Olimpio in 3. c. Eccles. Viues vpon Augustine de ciuita 13. c. 21. Cortesius vpō Lombardus lib. 2. dist 5. Gen 2. Ioseph 1. c. 3. Lyra vpon Ge 2. Scotus Bonet Albertus Auicena Poly bius Eratost hen●…s Lyra vpo●… Gen. 2. Epiphaniu●… Paradise 〈◊〉 restriall Geropius Bo canus will haue it to be iu Iude who is to be read Paradise Gen. 13. 10. Ca●…t 4. 15. Eccles. 24. 34. c. 10. verse ●…7 Ezech 28. 13. Paradise Heb. 12. 22. 23. 14. Reuel 21. 22. Paradise Eccles 44. 15. Heb. 11. 5. 2. kinges 2. 1. Eccles. 28. 13. 1 Math. 2. 58. Par●…dise is hea uen August 1. Tom 1. de Gen ad Lit. con●…ra