before them if these can promote their private good by Sword or Poyson or Mutiny The people if they believ'd that a company of Delinquents joyning together to defend themselves by Arms do not at all unjustly but may lawfully repel lawful Force by Force they would soon be stirred up and suffer none for whom they have respect to be brought to justice For your last particular concerning the Power of the Civil Soveraign in relation to that for which we have assign'd The Ninth place that is to say the Canon of holy Scripture it seeâ—eth a great indignity offered to the Soveraignty of Christ. Upon this occasion I remember a saying of Dr. Weston which would better have become a man in Buff then a Prolocutor of the Convocation After six days spent in hot dispute about Religion in the Reign of Queen Mary he dismissed those of the Reformed way in these words It is not the Queens pleasure that we should spend any longer time in these debates and ye are well enough already for you have the Word and we have the Sword So little of the obligation of holy Writ is perceived by those whose eyes are dazled with Secular Grandeur But before we come to dispute of the power which maketh the Scripture Canon which is as 't were the Main Battle may we not a little breathe and prepare our selves in some lesser Skirmishes touching the Writings of the Old and New Testament Mr. Hobbes If you like that course I am ready to joyn with you First then I take notice that divers historical Books of the Old Testament were not written by those whose names they bear to wit much of the Pentateuch the Books of Ioshuah and Iudges and Ruth and Samuel and Kings and Chronicles Stud. This hath bin long since said and proved by the places which you cite in your Leviathan by the Frenchman who founded a Systeme of Divinity upon the conceit of men before Adam who also by Recantation unravel'd his own Cobweb spun out of his own fancie rather then the true Records of time But this doth not invalidate the truth of those Histories whose sufficient antiquity is by you granted Mr. Hobbes I observe again concerning the Book of Iob that though it appear sufficiently that he was no feigned person yet the Book it self seemeth not to be an History but a Treatise concerning a question in ancient time disputed why wicked men have often prospered in this world and good men have been afflicted and it is the more probable because the whole dispute is in Verse but Verse is no usual stile of such as either are themselves in great pain as Iob or of such as come to comfort them as his Friends but in Philosophy especially moral Philosophy in ancient time frequent Stud. It is not thought that Iob or his Friends but Moses or some other pen'd the History in the form in which we have it But however you here alledge a Reason which proveth the contrary to the purpose you would have it serve for For Poetry exciting the imagination and affections is fittest for painting out the Scene of Tragedy You have surely forgotten Ovid de Tristibus Mr. Hobbes Please your self in replies I will proceed to observe further that as for the Books of the Old Testament they are derived to us from no other time then that of Esdras who by the direction of Gods Spirit â—etrived them when they were lost Stud. That place in the fourth Book of Esdras wherein it is said in his person Thy Law is burnt therefore no man knoweth the things that thou hast done is a very fable For though the Autographa of Moses and the Prophets have been thought to have perished at the burning of Hierusalem yet it is not true that all the Copies were destroyed For the Prophets in the Captivity read the Law And concerning that whole fourth Book it is said by Bellarmine himself that the Author is a Romancer Of the like nature may they seem who talk of the men of the Synagoga magna making Ezra to be a chief man amongst them and ascribing to them the several divisions and sections of the Old Testament even that wherein the Book of Daniel is most absurdly reckon'd amongst the Hagiographa Of that Synagoga magna there is not one word spoken by Iosephus or St. Hierom though both had very fair occasions in some parts of their writings to have intreated of it And the deficiencie of the Jewish story about that time may move us to believe that this was the fiction of modern Rabbies and Morinus thinks he has demonstrated that so it was Mr. Hobbes I note again that the Septuagint who were seventy Learned men of the Jews sent for by Ptolomy King of Egypt to translate the Jewish Law out of the Hebrew into Greek have left us no other Books for holy Scripture in the Greek Tongue but the same that are received in the Church of England Stud. It is not resolved whether they translated any more then the five Books of Moses and whether they turn'd them out of Hebrew Chaldee or the Samaritan Tongue to which latter Pentateuch the translation of the seventy is shew'd by Hottinger to agree most exactly in a very great number of places by him produced in order but there is as great question whether that we have be the true Copy of the Seventy for seeing therein the names of places as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for Caphtoâ—im are there rendred not according to the Hebrew but after the manner in which they were call'd in the latter times under the second Temple the antiquity of the Copy of Rome may be suspected Mr. Hobbes Be it also observed that those Books which are called Apocrypha were left out of the Canon not for inconformity of Doctrine with the rest but onely because they are not found in the Hebrew Stud. Here again you erre for by the same Reason some part which is contained in the Canon should have been of old excluded For instance the Book of Daniel is partly written in Hebrew and partly written in Caldee for Daniel had learnt that Tongue in Babylon by the command of the King Neither are all Apocryphal Books to be thought not written in Hebrew for that excellent Book of the Son of Syrach as is manifest by his Preface to it was a translation out of the Hebrew Copy of his Grand-father Iesus The Reason why such Books were not received by the Jews into the Canon was not what you suggest but because they seem'd not written by that kinde of prophesie which they called Ruach Hakkodesh Mr. Hobbes I confess St. Hierom had seen the first of the Maccabees in Hebrew Stud. Neither is that rightly noted For the Book which St. Hierom saw as is thought by Drusius a man profoundly learned in these matters was the first Book of the History of the Hasmonâ—ei whos 's Epoch was of later
Euphemus delivered there might first hint to you your sandy Politicks for that Athenian Embassadour to the Camarinâ—i amongst other things tending much that way at last plainly told them that to a Governour nothing which was profitable was dishonest or unreasonable which Doctrine because it invites ambitious men to step into Authority when the door is open and mercenary soldiers to decide a dispute not in favour of the right but the most profitable side because it moveth them that are supream to become Tyrants in the exercise of that power which Religion ought to limit though the people may not and to make their passions their chief rules and to govern with Armies rather then Laws or if with both to dy their Flags and to write their Edicts in the blood of whom they please because I say it taketh off all sence of what we call humanity from the supream powers and so not unlike to a Porta Sabina calls in innumerable evils upon such people as are quiet and modest it therefore ought no more to be sucked in by Prince or People then pernicious air in time of common Pestilence Mr. Hobbes Name not Tyranny as a word of reproach for the name of Tyranny signifieth nothing more nor less then the name of Soveraignty be it in one or many men saving that they that use the former word are understood to be angry with them they call Tyrants and I think the toleration of a professed hatred of Tyranny is a toleration of hatred to Common-wealth in general So that here I must say to you Peace down for you bark now at the Supream Legislative power therefore 't is not I but the Laws which must rate you off And now me thinks my endeavour to advance the civil power should not be by the civil power condemned nor private men by reprehending it declare they think that power too great and after what manner I endeavour the advancement of it I think it worth the time to declare to you I shew that the Scripture requireth absolute obedience I teach that the people have made artificial chains called civil laws which they themselves by mutual Covenants have fastned at one end to the lips of that man or Assembly to whom they have given the Soveraign power and at the other end to their own ears that nothing the Soveraign can do to the Subject can properly be called Injustice or injury because every subject is Author of every Act the Soveraign doth That the proprietie of a subject excludeth not the dominion of the Soveraign but only of another subject Stud. Remember Sir the case of Ahab and Naboth unless you suppose it in times of publick necessitie Mr. Hobbes Interrupt me not I teach also that the King is the absolute Representative and that it is dangerous to give such a title to those men who are sent up by the people to carry their Petitions and give him if he permit it their advice That the Soveraign is sole Legislator and not subject to civil laws That to him there cannot be any knot in the law insoluble either by finding out the ends to undo it by or else by making what ends he will as Alexander did with his sword in the Gordian-knot by the Legislative power which no other Interpreter can doe That there is no common Rule of good and evil to be taken from the Nature of the objects themselves but from the Person of the man where there is no Common-wealth or in a Common-wealth from the Person that representeth it or from an Arbitrator or Judge whom men disagreeing shall by consent set up and make his sentence the rule thereof That where there is no law there no killing or any thing else can be unjust That the civil Soveraign is Judge of what doctrines are fit to be taught I also maintain that Soveraigns being in their own Dominions the sole Legislators those books only are Canâ—nical that is Law in every Nation which are established for such by the Soveraign Authority Stud. In some things you are just to the Praerogative of Kings but in others you ought to have remembred the words of our Lord who adviseth us to give to Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are Gods For your cavil at the name Tyrant it is in the sense I us'd it for exercise of unlimited power unbecoming a Prince but I know how very frequently it is misapply'd by those who will call the very bridling of their licentiousness hateful Tyranny and find fault with the law for no other reason but because it is a râ—straint upon their supposed freedome whereas the hedges which the law sets down are to keep them only in the truest and safest way The absolute Princes of Syracuse were called Tyrants though some of them deserved the title of Benefactors and amongst our selves the best of Kings was branded with that ignominious character For that which you have justly said in favour of a Monarch had it bin Printed before Forty eight it might have bin of good effect at least it might have shewed a disposition to promote Loyalty But being published after the Kings Martyrdom and his Sons exile it served the purposes of those people who had then the Militia in their hands For you say that the Rights of a Common-wealth by acquisition are the same with those by Institution or Succession That the power of the Representative whether in one or many cannot without consent be transferr'd forfeited accus'd punish'd and that such a person is Supreme Judge The Parliament therefore ought to have return'd you thanks for ascribing to them the strength of the Leviathan and for keeping their nostrils free from the books of the right Heir and his adherents They ought especially to have given you the thanks of the House for saying I maintain nothing in any Paradox of Religion but attend the end of that dispute of the Sword concerning the Authority not yet amongst my Country-men decided by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved or rejected and whose commands both in speech and writing whatsoever be the opinions of private men must by all men that mean to be protected by their Laws be obeyed But notwithstanding all this what you seem to build up on the side of the Soveraign you pull down on the side of the People For whilst you found all upon single Self-interest to the advancement of which all safe means are by you esteemed lawful these specious rights are no longer his then by main force he can keep possession of them That will not be long if great Delinquents call'd in question and miserable people who like such as stake their Cloak in an over-hot day are willing to hazard the life they would be rid of and are easily misled not looking upon the stumbling-blocks in the way but on the light that others carry
date though the names are us'd promisouously amongst the Jews Mr. Hobbes I proceed to note that the Writers of the New Testament lived all in less then an age after Christs Ascension and had all of them seen our Saviour or been his Disciples except St. Paul and St. Luke and consequently whatsoever was written by them is as ancient as the time of the Apostles But the time wherein the Books of the New Testament were received and acknowledged by the Church to be of their writing is not altogether so ancient These Books of which the Copies were not many nor could easily be all in any one private mans hand cannot be derived from a higher time then that wherein the Governours of the Church collected approved and recommended them to us as the Writings of those Apostles and Disciples under whose names they go The first Enumeration of all the Books both of the Old and New Testament is in the Canons of the Apostles supposed to be collected by Clement the first after St. Peter Bishop of Rome But because that is but supposed and by many questioned the Council of Laodicea is the first we know that recommended the Bible to the then Christian Churches for the Writings of the Prophets and Apostles and this Council was held in the 364 year after Christ. At which time though ambition had so far prevailed on the great Doctors of the Church as no more to esteem Emperours though Christian for the Shepherds of the people but for Sheep and Emperours not Christian for Wolves and endeavour'd to pass their Doctrine not for counsel and informatition as Preachers but for Laws as absolute Governours and thought such frauds as tended to make the people more obedient to Chrâ—stian Doctrine to be pious yet I am perswaded they did not therefore falsifie the Scriptures though the Copies of the Books of the New Testament were in the hands onely of the Ecclesiasticks because if they had had an intention so to do they would surely have made them more favourable to their power over Christian Princes and civil Soveraignty then they are Stud. It is plain to those who are versed in the Monuments of the Church that the Books of the New Testament were declared Canon very early though the precise time and place be not so easily known Upon the Enumeration made in the Apostolick Canons we rely not not because that Book is to be esteemed wholly spurious but because this Enumeration is made in the eighty fourth Canon For the first fifty are those for whose antiquity we contend It is true that the whole is call'd Apocryphal by the Council at Rome under Pope Gelasius and it hath been answer'd that they were so called not as if they were not ancient Pieces but because they were not made Nomocanon or Canon-law But doubtless that Council rejected them as spurious Writings numbring them amongst the late and feigned pieces of the Gospel of St. Andrew the Revelation of St. Paul the Books of Og the Gyant of the Testament of Iob of the Daughters of Adam and the like But it hath also condemn'd the works of Tertullian St. Cyprian Arnobius Lactantius and the History of Ensebius and therefore it is not material what writing standeth or falleth before such erroneous Judges Certain it is by other passages in ancient Writers that the New Testament was acknowledg'd to be Canon long enough before the Council of Laodicea The earliest Christian Writers whose Books are derived to our hands abound in â—itations of the New Testament as the undoubted Register of what was done and taught and as the publick Rule Tertullian for example citeth very many places out of every Book which now is contained in the Canon of the New Testament if I except the second of St. Peter And in his fourth Book against Marcion he speaketh effectually to our present purpose If that said he be truâ—st which was â—irst and that be first which â—as from the beginning and that be from the beginning which is derived from the Apostles it is also manifest that that was from the Apostles which is sacred in the Churches of the Apostles Let us see then what milk St. Paul fed the Corinthians with by what rule the Galatians were reformed what the Philippians Thessalonians Ephesians read as also what the Romans preach to whom St. Peter and St. Paul did leave the Gospel sealed with their bloud We have also Churches instructed by St. John For although Marcion hath rejected his Apocalypse yet the succession of Bishops traced to the beginâ—ing will establish him as the certain Author of that Book And he had taught a while before that the Gospel had Apostles and Apostolike men for their undoubted Authors The Books then of the New Testament were received anciently enough as the Writings of such whose names they bare and as the Records of Truth And for the Copies of them they were so widely dispersed that it was as hard to corrupt them all as to poyson the Sea They were before the Council of Laodicea not onely in the hands of Ecclesiasticks but of Christians of any profession and of Heathens also So it appeareth by the reflexions invidiously made on them by Celsies and Hierocles not to name Porphyry who was once of the Jewish then of the Christian Religion and against both at last by foul Apostacy In the persecution of Dâ—ocletian in the beginning of the fourth Century there was an Edict for the delivering up the Copies of the Gospel which for fear was done by divers Christians known by the name of Traditores in Church-History and yet notwithstanding very many Copies were preserved by such good men who valued the other â—tate before this and feared to be blotted out of the Book of life if they should so contribute to the extermination of the Books of Scripture Historians tell us that the number of the Traditores was very great but that the number of such who as the Roman Office saith chose rather to give up themselves to the Executioners then to deliver up holy things to Dogs was almost infinite and amongst these were very many Virgins particularly Crispina Marciana Candida So apparently false it is that the Copies were but few and those few onely in the hands of Ecclesiasticks But in whatsoever hands these Books were and at whatsoever time they were first publickly acknowledged in this I think we agree and Iulian himself confess'd it when Apostate that they are genuine Mr. Hobbes I see not any reason to doubt but that the Old and New Testament as we have them now are the true Registers of those things which were done and said by the Prophets and Apostles Stud. What hindereth then that we may not at all times do or speak the things contained in them after such manner as we are there directed And that the Scripture should not be a perpetual Canon to every Christian seeing the Laws of Christ are contained in it