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A19658 A deliberat answere made to a rash offer, which a popish Antichristian catholique, made to a learned protestant (as he saieth) and caused to be publyshed in printe: Anno. Do[mini] 1575 Wherein the Protestant hath plainly [and] substantially prooued, that the papists that doo nowe call themselues Catholiques are in deed antichristian schismatiks; and that the religious protestants, are in deed the right Catholiques: VVriten by Robert Crowley: in the yeere, 1587. Crowley, Robert, 1518?-1588. 1588 (1588) STC 6084; ESTC S110998 131,595 191

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canonicall mo bookes then these In the olde testament saith hée the fiue bookes of Moses that is Genesis Exodus Leuiticus Numbers Deuteronomium After these Iesus Naue of the Iudges togither with Ruth After these foure bookes of the raignes of kings which the Hebrews doo account but two Paralipomenon which is called the booke of dayes and two of Esdras which they doo receaue each by it selfe and the booke of Hester And of the Prophets Esaie Ieremie Ezechiell Daniell bisides these one booke of the xii Prophets Iob also and the Psalmes of Dauid are each of them one booke Salomon also hath giuen vnto the churches thrée bookes the Prouerbs Ecclesiastes and Cantica canticorum In these bookes haue the fathers shut vp the number of the bookes of the old testamēt And of the New testament there are foure Gospelles of Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn The Acts of the Apostles which Luke dooth describe Fouretéene Epistles of Paule the Apostle of Peter the Apostle two of Iames the brother of the Lord an Apostle one Epistle of Iudas one of Iohn thrée and the Apocalyps of Iohn These bée the volumes which the fathers haue shut vp within the canon whereof the father would that the assertions of our faith should consist Notwithstanding it is néedefull to bée knowne that there be other bookes also which are not canonicall but our auncestors haue called them Ecclesiastical That is to say wisdome which is said to bée Salomons And another Wisdome which is said to bée of the sonne of Sirach which is by the Latinists named by the same generall name Ecclesiasticus By which name not the author of the booke but the qualitie of the scripture is named And of the same Order is the booke of Tobias Iudith and the bookes of Machabies Thus far Ruffinus in his creede or confession of beliefe set foorth by saint Hierome And not many liues after this hée writeth thus These volumes haue the fathers deliuered vnto vs which as I haue said it hath séemed to mée méete to note out for the instruction of such as doo take vpon them the first rudimēts of the church of faith that they may know out of what fountaines the cups of the woord of God must bée drawne Now M. Offerer I pray you confer these words of Ruffinus with that decrée that was made by your fathers of the Tridentine councel in their 4. Session wherein they allow for canonicall all those bookes that haue bin are cōtained in that booke which is cōmonly called the Bible With them the bookes of Tobias Hester Iudith Wisdome Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Machabies are of as great authoritie as the rest and they doo denounce accursed all such as doo not or shall not receiue for canonicall all those books and euery part of them making no diffrence betwixt these and the other which Ruffinus hath said the fathers haue deliuered vnto vs as fountaines out of which the cups of the word of God must be drawn Let your fathers therfore denounce accursed this Ruffinus and those fathers that he speaketh of for they be of one minde with vs. Let them accursse S. Hierome that hath set foorth this Créede of Ruffinus as a sound confession of the Christian faith Let them excōmunicate S. Gregorie Grego Morali in 29. lib. Cap. 19. Hiero. in praefacio prou that in the 19. of his morall exposition of the 29. Chapter of Iob dooth confesse that the first booke of the Machabies is not canonicall Yea let them accursse S. Hierome as black as a pot for that in his preface to the prouerbes of Salomon he saith thus The church dooth read the bookes of Iudith Tobie the Machabies for th'edification of the people but not to confirme the authority of the doctrines of the Church This Hierome such other were the fathers the Ruffinus saith haue deliuered to vs the other bookes of the Bible not these to bee fountaines for vs to draw the cups of Gods word out of them And with these would wée rather bée accursed then blessed with your popish Catholique fathers in your Tridentine counsell You frame an argument after this maner If the Catholique church had the true spirite of God in discerning iudging the true scriptures of God from the rest not scriptures why should not we belieue the same Catholike church gouerned led by the same spirit in giuing the true sence meaning vnderstanding of the scriptures To this I answere That the romish Catholique church which now is hath continued for the space almost of a thousand yéeres is not neither hath bin led by the true spirit of God either in discerning or iudging the true scriptures of God from the rest c. Nor yet in giuing the true sence c but it hath bin and is still led by the spirite of Antichrist And that neuer more apparantly then at the Tridentyne counsell as by the canons of the same counsell dooth most manifestly appéere to as many as with indifferent iudgement can and will reade them Thus haue I shewed you sufficient reasons whereby you might bée mooued to yeelde and ioyne with vs in religion and no longer to depend vpon the iudgement of that Antichristian church which you call Catholique for that you may sée if you bee not altogither blinded that it is not the true spirite of God that hath and dooth leade your Catholique church but in déede the false spirite of Antichrist The fourth Offer Offerer Fourth Let the Protestants make sufficient proofe by auncient writers of the Ecclesiastiall histories what church it is that al these fifteene hundreth yeeres past hath continued through out firme and stedfast while all other conuenticles and cōgregations as well of Arians as of the Nestorian Maniches Nouatians Vigilians Iouinians and the rest of Heretikes of all sortes haue decayed bin conuinced and ouerthrowne and that by any other Church then by the common knowne Catholique church of Christ and I shall then yeelde and recant and not before Crowley It is very true that the knowne Catholike church hath bin and still is as for these fiftéene hundreth yéeres last past it hath bin the meane that God hath vsed in the conuinsing ouerthrowing of Arians Nestorians and the rest of the Heretikes that you speake of It is most true also that the same Catholike church hath all this time continued firme and stedfast but how can you prooue that your popish Catholike church is that knowne Catholike church of Christ that you speake of Héerein lieth the difficulty It is not enough for you to say that your romish church is the Catholike church but you must prooue it Your antiquity your vniuersality your vnity with your continuall succession of Bishops will not serue your turne Your antiquity is not so auncient as ours by 4600. yéeres almost For ours began in Adam hath continued euer since yours began to florish in the daies of Phocas the