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A90976 The sun out-shining the moon, or, Righteousness excelling rottennness in answer to a lying scandalous paper, published by John Moone, entituled, The true light hath made manifest darknesse, &c. : but it is darkness put forth for light, as it will appear by that which followeth / and is published by John Price. Price, John, Welsh clergyman.; Bownd, William. Brief discovery of the the erroneous tenets of those who are distinguished from other men by the name of Quakers. 1658 (1658) Wing P3353; ESTC R43721 30,935 58

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shall be changed for the Trumpet shall sound they that have done good to the Resurrection of life and they that have done evil to the Resurrection of condemnation Here is thy objections and queries answered by him whom the world calls John Moons This Paper which he first makes mention of I sent to him I have not the Copy of else I would have set it down here but the effect of it was this John Moone hath charged me with Balaams sin and why but because I was a Register and he pressed upon me to prove my practise by Scripture and prove a Register in the Church of God Then I produced in my Letter that Scripture Nehem. 7.5 64. which is effectual to answer what he demanded and as he is full of confusion in other things so also in this in not distinguishing between the Church and Commonwealth to be an Officer of a just Law and justly executed is no sin neither is there any more error nor covetousnesse in it then is in any other calling whatsoever and wherein he compares me to Balaam who would by Witch-craft destroy all the people of God I will not trouble my self about it but leave such a plain case to the Reader to judge of the unequality of the comparison Here followeth several queries sent by John Moone and one John David to Hugh Evans and John Price which are as followeth Now having answered thy Paper and queries we have sent these few queries to be answered by Hugh Evans and thee and all your followers and so let them be particularly answered according to plain Scriptures if any of you can or else let your mouths be stopped for evermore First query What is the first principle of pure Religion and undefiled before God and whether this pure Religion is to be attained here while men are this side grave yea or nay John David and John Moone this in brief touching your queries We answer to your first That it is repentance from dead works and that is attainable this side the grave or the natural death Be ashamed of your ignorance in asking such a question as whether pure Religion is attainable in this life Second query What that light is which lighteth every man that comes into the world and whether that light is within in the conscience yea or nay Second Answer Christ is that light and it shineth in some men's conscience and not in all for Esai saith that there be some men which have no light in them Third query Whether that light which is come into the world which is the condemnation of the world be sufficient to lead them to Salvation yea or nay Third Answer It is sufficient Fourth query Whom God spake to when he said Let us make man in our own image and where that Garden of Eden is where the Lord God put man whom he had formed Fourth Answer God spake to himself as he was Father Son and Spirit and as touching the Garden of Eden where it is and seeing you would have us to prove by plain Scriptures we direct you to the first Book of Moses and the second Chapter not because we have no more to say of it but that Ismael is not worthy of it or you scoffers Fifth Query Where is that flesh and blood to be obtained except a man eateth thereof he hath no life in him now if any of you can witnesse life declare whether it be a this side grave yea or nay Fifth Answer That flesh and blood is in the believer and he eateth and drinketh thereof Sixth Query Whether they that are Baptized into Jesus Christ his death be not made free from sin yea or nay Sixth Answer They are made free from the condemning Power of sin Seventh Query Whether there be any true Church but that Church in God and whether any in that Church were persecutors or went for the wages of unrighteousnesse Shew one Example in all the Scriptures if you can or else repent and be ashamed for the evil of your wayes Seventh Answer There is no true Church out of God but are by Faith in God neither doth that Church persecute nor bring a Justice of Peace with them to threaten those that comes peaceably to enquire and to try the truth of its doctrine as you have done to us nor do any of them go for the wages of unrighteousnesse and we do exhort you to repent of your lying in accusing us of any such things Eighth Query Where that voice is to be heard which gathers into one sheep-fold and where that sheep-sold is and whether any of them which follow the one Shepherd may be plucked out of his hands yea or nay Eighth Answer Where the true Teacher is there the voice is to be heard And where the Saints are gathered there is the Sheepfold and they that follow Christ cannot be plucked out of his hands but if any of them will leave following of him by hearkening unto such seducers as you are them they may come to ruine Ninth query Where that City of the living God and Heavenly Jerusalem is and the Church of the first born and where the Spirits of the just men made persect is and whether this may be known and witnessed this side the grave yea or nay Ninth Answer That City is where the presence of God in peace is And we shall more fully possesse it when mortality shall be swallowed up of life Tenth query Where that bottomlesse Pit is where all them that doth wickedly and forget God shall be thrown into if any of you can declare JOHN DAVIES JOHN MOONE Tenth Answer Where the presence of God is not in peace there the bottomlesse Pit is If you are not satisfied with this answer do you appoint the time and place and send us word we will give you the meeting and will reason with you provided that you will be civil Hugh Evans John Price These fore-going answers were sent unto John Davies and John Moone from Hugh Evans and my self speedily after the receiving of theirs and seeing that John Moone hath put forth a Book why did he not put forth all that had passed in writing between us but in stead of that he gathered a parcel of his own forged lyes against us as I shall make hereafter manifest Here followeth another scandalous Paper which was sent to us from John Moone and John Davies which is as followeth A reply unto the answer of Hugh Evans one of the blind Priests in Radnorshire in Wales which he hath made unto certain queries which was given unto him and John Price one of his followers by us who are known to the world by the names of John Moone and John Davies wherein their blindnesse and Ignorance is made manifest Answer Whereas thou sayest that repentance from dead works is the first principle of pure Religion herein is thy blindnesse and Ignorance made manifest unto all them which will not be wilfully blind and thou Hugh Evans art found
this effect Iohn Moone said that whosoever is not Eternal is external and that God onely is Eternal I said that the Devil is not external and therefore Eternal as it did follow from thy own words And I did then explain my meaning thus I do not say he is a Devil from Eternity but through or by his forsaking his first estate and habitation he became a Devil and I asked thee whether thou wouldest deny that the Devil is Eternal without end for it did follow from thy words before that he hath an end in saying that whatsoever is not Eternal is external and that God onely is Eternal for that which is external will have an end so that one of those two things will unavoidably follow that either the Devil is mortal and will have an end as all external things will have an end or else he is one with God which I deny that the Devil is one with God See now the snare which thou hast laid for me thy self art fallen therein and whereas thou sayest that I would neither prove by Scripture the Devil to be Eternal nor acknowledge that I had told a lie I refused to prove him to be a Devil from Eternity as thou wouldest have me the which I neither did speak nor mean but I offered to prove him to be endlesse I mean by the word Eternal a thing which endureth for ever as Angels and souls of men and not alwayes that Eternal invisible unchangeable the onely wise God who comprehendeth all things and nothing can comprehend him and to say that any thing else is so is blasphemy nothing is unchangeable but God nothing onely wise but the Eternal God but Angels and the souls of men do change their estates and conditions yet that doth not dissolve them Angels became Devils and men became sinners The soul that sinneth shall die and he hath made his soul a Sacrifice for sin there is a natural death and there is a Spiritual death a dying life and a living death and as thou sayest that the Devil shall be cast into the wrath of God that is true but that doth not prove him to be external or to have an end that doth prove a change of condition and not a dissolution or to have an end Dost thou know from whence or what is the root from whence the Angels and souls of men came Thou sayest that thou art come to the beginning if it had been true thou should dest have seen the end also and that between And concerning that which thou callest a reply unto an answer of Hugh Evans and my self in which thou sayest that the first principle of pure Religion was before transgression Was not this thy query What is the first principle of pure Religion And I say that before transgression there was no need of Faith nor Religion but if it had been propounded What is the first pure principle we should have returned you another answer but as the case stands now with man being a sinner we say with the Apostle Heb. 6.1 that it is Repentance And whereas you say that we deny the Testimony of Iohn you do say amisse but we say with the Prophet Isai 8.20 That if men speak not according to the word it is because there is no light in them JOHN PRICE Now I am come briefly to answer to that which Iohn Moone chargeth Hugh Evans and I with in his Book entituled The true light hath made manifest darknesse Iohn Moone begins his Book with a glorious Title The true light hath made manifest darknesse But before he went any further his Pen went righter then his confused mind for said he or Sion builded up before he said that Babylon was thrown down And true it is that such a Sion may be is builded up amongst them wherein a Babylon is yet in them to be thrown down for if ever there hath been confusion amongst any people it is amongst them but know this that as Babylon is thrown down so is Sion builded up and not Sion first builded up and then Babylon thrown down He goeth on and saith With a true answer to what the Baptists Teachers objected against him as he calls them but it is no answer to any one particular that they objected against that I know of but to his own forged or conceited lies so goeth on and towards the latter end of Page the first he falls to Prayer and well he may record it for I think it is a work he doth but seldome In his 2d Page he begins to charge Hugh Evans with saying that the true light shineth but in some not in all backs it with a lie in saying that he could not prove it but he omitted to speak the whole for when Hugh Evans and I did reason with him about the true light we did not use to answer hastily nor unadvisedly but did enquire to this effect There is the light of the Sun which is a true light in its Element also the Law of nature is a true light Rom. 2.14 For whatsoever maketh manifest is light and that Law or light which is in mans nature doth make manifest sin therefore a true light but it is not that light which was spoken of in Iohn 1. which is Christ that he denieth to be in every man He and I often denied somewhat to this effect that that true light shineth or liveth not in every man as it doth appear by our answer to their queries For further proof of this that this was our negative or denial I direct you to their second query and our answer to it which was propounded and answered about thirteen moneths before the appearance of Iohn Moones printed Paper entituled The true light hath made manifest darknesse He further saith that Hugh Evans was demanded to prove that this true light did not shine in every man but could not whereas Hugh Evans produced this Scripture to make good his denial Isai 8.20 To the Law and to the Testimony And if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them from this Scripture Hugh Evans and others reasoned to this effect if all men do speak according to the word and Testimony of God then the true light shineth or liveth in all men but all men speaketh not according to the word and Testimony of God therefore some men have not the true light shining or living in them He saith further in his second Page Now see said he how contrary to the Scripture he speaketh that would deny the Testimony of Iohn but I say that that man that would make Iohn a false witnesse may well be ranked with Iohn Moone but Hugh Evans did own it and dayly did bear witnesse with Iohn of the same truth and because that there is something spoken of this in the answer to his queries I shall not speak any more of it here neither do I intend to answer to all his confused Paper no that
man is in the one way I leave the Reader to judge whether he speaks sense or non-sense considering his following words So he concludes that particular with these words Let the wise in heart judge where the third way is as though his Opposer had said that there were three wayes And in the latter part of his fifth Page he saith That I should say that Faith is not the gift of God a thing that I cannot remember that I had any discourse with him about But whether I have said so or no I tell you what I should say if I should speak my judgement concerning it I say That believing or giving credit to the word of God is an Act of the Creature performed by the Power and ability given him of God as it is written With the heart man believeth to Righteousnesse and with the mouth confession is made to Salvation Rom. 20.20 I marvel how the Quakers and others are so besotted that they do not see that believing or Faith in that sense is a duty required of man upon the neglect of it he is threatned and upon the performance of it he is commended according to Matth. 16.16 He that believeth shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned John Moone saith That the Faith whereby a man is saved from his sins is the gift of God And I say If man be not saved from the punishment due for sin that the cause is not in God for not giving but in man for not believing He saith That I spake contrary to the Scriptures Eph. 2.8 By grace ye are saved through Faith not of your selves it is the gift of God I deny not that Scripture Eph. 2.8 but own it and also own Salvation to be the gift of God which the Apostle in that place doth affirme to be the gift of God and excludes all manner of works from having any part or share in the work of Salvation So having no desire to be tedious to the Reader and considering that other mens Pens have passed upon this subject which I esteeme far before my own In Page the seventh John Moone faith That one Rees Davies and another should say That in the Devil there is as much of God as makes him tremble But Rees Davies saith That he said not so but these are the words which Rees Davies said That there is so much fear in the Devil as makes him tremble as for the other I own not his words nor himself neither In Page the eighth John Moone quarrelleth with another whose name is John Prosser and accuseth him of saying That Ribbon and Lace doth adorn the Gospel but the man saith with many witnesses That it is a notorious lie which John Moone saith of him and I believe that there is but few if there be any that will believe that any reasonable man will say that Ribbon and Lace doth adorn the Gospel In Page the ninth John Moone saith That one Evan Oliver should say That God and his grace is not both one whether he said so or no I do not know for he is and hath been in Scotland ever since but I believe that he might distinguish between God and his grace and yet hold Union also And as for our Friend Vavasor Powel I have been informed that he doth intend to answer for himself and judging him to be abler and sitter then I my self am I shall not say any thing of it neither can I well by reason that I heard not the discourse nor have not any account of it But what John Moone saith of it in his Papers which are not to be given credit unto And as for John Moone his Queries in the close of his Book I leave them to be answered by those to whom they were propounded for the life of sanctified and Baptized Believers is hid in God Col. 3.3 Therefore they live not in observation Yet I say That God's people do and ought observe things See Deut. 1● 28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee Psalm 105.45 That they might observe his Statutes and keep his Laws Matth. 28.20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you So I shall say no more at present in reply to John Moones Paper But desire the Reader carefully to peruse that which followeth and is written and subscribed by my beloved Friend William Bownd And I do earnestly desire that all men especially they that have had any longing desire after God and goodnesse that they stand still and then doubtlesse they shall see the Salvation of God for whiles man is working labouring and moving in his own will He is a stranger to the Salvation of God to which Salvation and gra●e I commend all those that waiteth for and longeth after it and rest Their true Friend JOHN PRICE HERE Followeth under the same Title A BRIEF DISCOVERY Of the Erronious Tenets of those who are distinguished from other men by the name OF QUAKERS NAMELY JOHN MOONE ALEXANDER PARKER And others who own them and their sayings wherein is manifested the right consequences that unavoidably followeth their own words from their own mouths and under their own hands at several times in several meetings With a few words in brief unto several sorts of people in several conditions BY ME Who am the unablest amongst many yet a Lover of Peace and Truth WILLIAM BOWND Prov. 18.17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just but his Neighbour cometh and searcheth him Prov. 17.22 Though thou shouldest bray a Fool in a morter amongst Wheat with a Pestel yet will not his Foolishnesse depart from him LONDON Printed for the Author 1658. A RELATION Of a short Discourse at a place called the Scwryw upon the eighteenth day of the Moneth called February I Hearing that the people which by some are called Quakers were to meet there and that one Alexander Parker was to Preach there that day I knowing my liberty that I might try all thing hold fast that which is good I went there and hearing the said Alexander speaking very often unto the people of a pure principle of God in every man which pure principle is in Egypt in bondage and in slavery in man and must be redeemed And when he had done speaking I was moved to speak these words following Friend Thou hast spoken much unto the people concerning a pure principle of God in every man which pure principle is in slavery and in bondage and must be redeemed I would know of thee whether thou doest own any part in man which is to be redeemed besides this pure principle of God Then the said Alexander drew near unto me and asked me some other question but did not answer to the question which I had propounded Whereupon I told him that I would not answer him in any thing until he had answered to the question which I had propounded And then the people many of them did rage and rail against me with open
is false for answer was made in plainnesse to the satisfaction of many though thou could not receive it being full and rich in thy own conceit and so was sent empty away and after the truth was cleared to the satisfaction of many people the Messenger of the Lord passed away and then hearing thee Bownd incensing the people with lies he came up again and then was something spoken concerning the Soul but not before he passed down as thou in thy Paper falsely asserts and the Soul was said to be pure which thou Bownd who knows not the Soul denied But the truth shall stand for ever and over the deceipt Reign and that in the conscience shall answer it and witnesse to it And thou Bownd saith in thy lying Paper That before he to wit Alexander Parker went down thou stated thy question Dost thou own a humane Soul which is to be redeemed besides c. This is false and a lie thou didst not mention any such question before he spake of the Souls redemption and so thou liar art for the lake Several other things there is in thy Paper which truely are not worth the rapping up nor mentioning by a sober Christian which stuffe I do return back into the old Bottle again from whence it came and the same Testimony that I gave of the Soul I give the same still that the Soul is pretious and pure witnessed though not comprehended by the dark wisedom of m●n for it was then declared that he spake what he knew and not by hear-say but what he witnessed by the living Power of God which was made manifest whereby he came to know the Soul and its Redemption and purity and none else knows it but those who witnesse Redemption and this Testimony shall stand for ever against thee Bownd and against all the Opposers of the truth my Soul is pure and pretious and they who live in sin are Enemies to their own Souls for the fleshly lusts warreth against the Soul the Enemy may destroy the body but cannot kill the Soul Be thou therefore awarned and repent of thy lies Bownd and speak not evil of that which thou knowest not whiles it is called to day harden not thy heart thou knowest not how soon thy soul may be required of thee This is in love to thy Soul which I love but for ever I shall stand a witnesse against thy lies and that which warres against the Soul And this Testimony without daubing or equivocating as thou falsly accuses of I shall really with my blood against thee Bownd and all thy partakers who are warring against the truth and all dear Friends who are convinced of the living and Eternal truth and have seen the deceipt and the emptinesse of all Professions formal that stands in the will of man where there is no satisfaction to the hungry thirsty Soul but as Swine feeding upon the Hurkes in that which discovered all these things do you abide and keep your habitations and dwellings in the measure of God waiting for his Power to purifie and cleanse and purge out the old learn that the Soul which is living you may witnesse to praise the living for the dead praise not God it is the living the living that praises God to whom all praise belongs for evermore Let this be truely Copied over and sent abroad and keep a true Copy of it From him who loves the Souls of all people but hates their sin Whose name in the Flesh is ALEXANDER PARKER But hath a new name written in the Book of life which none can read but he that hath it HEre I shall desire the understanding Reader for to take notice of the foregoing discourse and also of Parkers reply how he falls to contend and wrangle about the time and place but answereth not one word to the matter then in hand viz. as before he went down and after he came up or where he stood when he spake the words This was not material with me Although I had truely and rightly laid down the Passages of it as I could instance many that were witnesses of the same but I shall forbear because in so doing I should seem to be so frivolous as he himself Hath not this man manifested his own folly in putting Pen to Paper and writing so many Lines and sending them many miles and yet answereth not one word unto the thing I charged him with And whether the manner of it or the matter of it was the more worthy of being mentioned or replied unto I shall leave the impartial Reader to judge But onely I shall here demand of Parker this one thing yet once agains Whose Soul was that which he endeavoured to prove to be pure by that Scripture Gen. 2.7 And if it was his own Soul as he afterwards did say Whether he had forgotten that he came out of the loines of his old Father Adam But as the Tree is known by its Fruit so is the stumpe known by the Branches but in its due place I shall follow these Branches unto the stumpe and so discover the very rottennesse of its Rootes THe greatest cause of my Relating of this Discourse and bringing these few Lines into such a publicke view is because John Moone in his lying Book entituled The true Light hath made manifest darknesse hath cast false aspersions and lying accusations upon the Saints in Wales beginning with Hugh Evans who is now ceased from his labours I being one that was very well acquainted with his Doctrine life and conversation and the certainty I have of those sweet Divine Spiritual and Eternal enjoyments that his Soul hath had and hath and shall enjoy to Eternity out of the mortal body doth remove much grief and sadnesse from my Spirit in consideration of his absence in the body I also having a discovery of the lying and equivocating of John Moone and Alexander Parker and others that tread in their erronious steps therefore I am engaged to manifest some of it to the end that the tongues of publicke known liars may not easily passe their false aspersions and that truth and Justice may take place and that falshood and all false dealers may be found and taken in their own snares and wounded with their own Weapons Although I acknowledge my self the weakest amongst many yet seeing the uncircumcised rejoyce and Goliah standing vapouring in the field viz. John Moone with his lying Book desying Israel I am emboldened to presse into the Battail for who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defie the Armies of the living God I being both an eye and an ear-witnesse unto that Discourse between John Price and John Moone where John Moone falsly in his Book accuseth John Price in saying that he said There was three wayes This is false and therefore this is one cause Why I publish John Moone for a known lyer for the Discourse was grounded upon three distinct things viz. God Man and Devil Whereupon John Moone Denied one of
these three John Moone did bid him prove them distinct the which he did prove God the Creator creating and man created and the Devil deceiving which three were punctually proved But because the Letter of the Scripture did not name them in this term distinct it should not passe with him Then John Price asked him Which of these three would he deny Then one of John Moones fellow-Teachers or rather I may say his Fellow deceiver named Hugh Lloyd said that they denied man Whereupon John Moone being the more subtil drew the same Hugh Lloyd back by the shoulder and said Let me alone with them Then we spake something to this purpose If it were so to whom was the Gospel Preached and to what end Christ came in the flesh But John Moone as his manner was usually before said There was but light and darknesse God and Devil although he would not deal so plain as the other did as to deny man yet he would not deny what the other had said whereupon we brought this consequence upon his own words and we told him what absurdities would follow That is That if God and man were not distinct if man did fall as the Scripture declareth then the onely pure wise infallible God must also fall which is blasphemy in a high measure And also we told him That if man and Devil were not distinct that then it must unavoidably follow that that Christ which came from the bosome of the Father to redeem Sinners came also to redeem Devils The which is most erronious With this his mouth was stopped for the present as unto these things and had nothing to say and then the nearest way they had to escape the said Hugh Lloyd stept up upon a feat or some other high place and there began to speak to the people and to thunder our such railings and cursings and Plagues towards us that we could not have any further opportunity to speak and then when I got a little time to speak I spake something to the people concerning those mens erronious Doctrines then John Moone having recruited himself afresh amongst other railings spake these words Thou Bownd thou Serpent thou Son of the Devil thy brains shall be dashed against the stones and so I was silenced by their confounded Babel-uproar Then I having by the goodnesse of God some insight into their Tenets I went nearer unto the said John Moone and asked him what part in me was that which he thundered all those Plagues against or whether that part through being obedient to that light which he said was in me might escape them he answered The Candle of the wicked shall be put out I told him that he spake non-sense as in answer to that which I propounded then he endeavoured to inform the people that I said That the Scripture was non-sense I was accused also in another Paper jointly with John Price for saying That the Devil was Eternal as to Eternity or without end by John Moone and one Edward Stephens who in that Paper said That they both bare witnesse that there was nothing Eternal but God and that which is one with God Now seeing that the aforesaid John Price hath already replied unto the same accusation for brevity sake I shall return the Reader unto his reply fore-mentioned in this Book but onely I shall lay down some absurdities that must unavoidably follow First concerning Angels they all having their arise in the same Original Root are either Eternal or external First if they be external then it followeth that all the Angelical quire of Heaven and also those that fell from their first estates shall be annihilated and come to nothing which is to say Heaven or God's Throne will be found void of Angels and also Hell will be void of Devils Secondly If the fallen Angels are Eternal according to John Moones saying That there is nothing Eternal but God or that which is one with God Then it followeth that the holy and unchangeable God did also fall the which sayings are fearful to expresse Secondly Concerning Adam's Soul or all mens Souls in Adam in his fallen condition before the Sprouts of the humane Tree or the variety of Nations sprang forth they were also all either Eternal or external if external then it followeth that the Souls of all the Saints must cease from their sense and feeling of all their sweet enjoyments and likewise the Souls of the damned from all their woe and torments And if they are Eternal then it followeth according to Iohn Moones sayings as aforesaid That the Souls of all men in general are either God or one with God and cannot be defiled with sin nor damned for sin Doth it not here plainly appear that all the Plagues and woes which they pronounce against men are but against the external or outward part of man and the Astral Souls or life the which is but for a time and shall be done away Is not here the ground of all their sayings found out Iohn Moone affirming that there is but two things which is to say Light and darknesse Heaven and Hell God and Devil And is not here their beginning as they call it and the arise of Alexander Parker's own saying That the Soul was under sin and slavery but could not be defiled with sin And is not this that pure principle of God which they say is in every man in bondage and slavery and must be redeemed How now Moone and Parker have I not prickt you here in your right wound yea are ye not here found out Is not all your lying and equivocating and false accusing of others proved too short a covering for you to hide you in But it may be that you will say That I have wronged you and brought a scandal upon you To the which I reply that if you are here wronged it is by your own words for I have here but onely made use of your own expressions from your own mouths and followed your own foot-steps unto this denne whence you sprang forth Let this be told you out of the Bowels of love unto your poor Souls that if you had come to the right and true beginning you should have seen the arise and Original Root of Angels and humane Souls how they were generated and came forth out of an Eternal Root in love and anger and how the Angels that fell from their first estates advanced or domineered over or above the meek love and are held captive and are reserved in everlasting Chains under darknesse unto the Judgement of the great day And how Adam's right true humane Soul or all men's Souls in Adam fell from their happy estate and became dead as to the light and love and were defiled with sin and captivated in the anger and yet no part of that undivided God corrupted Now unto you poor besotted Souls that are taken by the fair out-side shews of these forementioned Errors and yet have not altogether swallowed up the very dregs of