2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
Epistle of S. Iohn and others But in time the Church guided by the holy Ghost with common consent receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the bookes that bee in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares hath more authoritie then the sayings of one or two the which neuerthelesse spake not but of their owne time And further there is no comparison betweene the sayings of one or two particular men the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as hath already beene sayd And it will be found that S. Ierom hath approoued these bookes as Canonicall And for the same will referre themselues to the Prologue which hee made vpon the bookes of the Macabees where he saith Touching the Hebrewes they are not Canonicall histories of the Church or other wordes to the like effect For the Councell of Laodicia they referre them to that which is contained therein It may bee they are deceiued in cyting one Councell for another For the Article beginning Touching the experience c. Although it be a question of fact yet it ceaseth not to be much auailable And if it be found as the Doctors haue proposed of which they doubt nothing the foundation of their particular reuelation is ouerthrowne Touching the Ministers conclusion the Doctors doo shew that they haue oft times complained they fell into by-matters They referre themselues to the iudgement of all men that their last resolution was deducted all of one thread continuing without straying in the same matter In which albeit they had found something wherein difficultie had beene had the Ministers so much desired to proceed to the conference of the chiefe pointes they might briefely haue admonished them of the said difficultie The Doctors vpon these articles had verily said something but to hasten the busines for the which they bee called they do forbeare to multiply words Where the Ministers shew that they receiue the 24. bookes of the old Testament with all the bookes of the Newe The Doctors say that that is not the point For all the conference they haue made hitherto that is to say by what rules men might discerne some bookes from other some and iudge whether they were of the Scripture or not was to raunge them in this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Church which is iudge of the number of the bookes and by the same meanes when the question should bee of the vnderstanding of the word of God euen in the conference of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers and Doctors should haue such reuerence to the Catholique Church that she should be of both parts accepted for iudge of the vnderstanding of the Scripture which they acknowledg to haue receiued of the same wherof she is an infallible iudge and more certaine then the one or the other And notwithstanding the Doctors doo make offer to the Ministers that they will not vse at this time against them but those bookes onely which they receiue for Canonicall But when they shall fall into difficultie of the interpretation of some text or of the conference of many the Doctors esteeme it more reasonable to haue recourse to the Catholique Church and to the auncient Fathers then to their proper sence or that of the Ministers Answere For conclusion the Ministers do accept of the offer made them by the Doctors to decyde the pointes and articles of their Confession by the bookes Canonicall whereof they are agreed that is to say the 24. bookes of the Hebrewes and all the bookes of the new Testament protesting neuerthelesse that in the last writtings proposed by the Doctors there bee many things which they no wayes approoue and doo hope to confute as occasions shall bee offered and would presently haue done it had it not beene that they will shew against that imputed to them by the Doctors that they will not stray nor any way retyre from the conference of the points of their Confession Reply The Doctors reciprocally do agree to the Ministers in the said offer with this moderation to ad the authoritie of the vniuersall Church and the auncient Doctors for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scripture when they cannot agree The third dayes Dispute on Thursday the eleuenth of Iuly THE Ministers haue shewed what are the protestations which the Doctors haue made not for other ende to appeare in this Conference but to satisfie Madam de Buillon and not to bee instructed and otherwise informed of the pointes of Religion then they be And those which the Ministers haue on their part made also not to conferre with them for any doubt they haue of the pointes of their Confession whereof they bee wholely resolued By reason of which protestations they haue required that the first point whereof they shall conferre may bee that which Madam de Buillon hath publiquely required to bee decyded that is of the Supper and of the Masse that they may bee discharged of that also which hath beene imputed vnto them by the Doctors that they wandered and would not come to the principall point which is that aforesaid of the Masse but cōtrariwise that they fled away drew backe from the conference Finally that it may bee knowne who doo flye the decyding thereof They offer after they haue cleared that point to conferre with them if they please of all the other points which be in controuersie as leisure and time shall therfore be granted And doo also require to avoyd all confusion and such as happened in the Conference the day before that the Doctors may propose their arguments particularly each one apart and that the answers also may bee made vnto them particularly by the Ministers Ir els if they will propose all their arguments and reasons together that one whole day may bee graunted vnto them wherein they may doo that without any interruption conditionally that the Ministers may haue the day following to answere by order to all their arguments The Doctors say by that which is aboue written in the behalfe of the Ministers That it is easie to know they haue alwayes recoyled and yet do recoyle from conference of the things which they haue put in controuersie and they are maruellously abashed that they will not now permit the articles of their confession to be examined by order as the day of the first Conference they had required my Lord of Neuers my Lord and Lady of Buillion and other Lords and Gentlemen being present in presenting their said confessions contained in a little guilded booke making offer to the Doctors to examine them in order if they pleased which they found very reasonable And indeed the Ministers themselues hauing demanded of the Doctors whereof they would intreate departed yesterday contented to begin this day to examine the Articles of the Creed And as touching their speeche of the protestation that the assembly was made for the instruction of my Lady who desireth as they say in her absence to bee
it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
difference betweene both parties touching the distinction of the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha Obiection Although the Ministers doo affirme that they build their Religion vpon the word of God yet build they Gods word vpon their inward reuelation So that such a reuelation is the foundation of the Word and consequently of their religion For they receiue not for the word of God but that which they thinke to bee particularly reuealed to them Touching the other Article wherein they finde fault that the Doctors haue said that faith is obtained by hearing of the word of God it seemeth they will stay vpon small things because they will not goe to the principall And where they say that faith is the gift of God and therefore is not gotten it is too plaine by manifold texts of Scripture that one selfe-same thing to be giuen and obtained is not repugnant As the kingdome of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and notwithstanding men obtaine it by true faith working by charitie And the scripture it selfe dooth call it a reward and recompence of good workes And Saint Paul saith that by liberalitie and almesdeeds the grace of God is gained Yea that which Saint Paul saith Fides ex auditu Faith commeth by hearing cannot otherwise be vnderstood but that faith commeth by hearing the word of God which is the obtaining thereof by the meane of hearing the word preached although it be a gift of God The like subtiltie they vse willing to reproue that which hath bene spoken that faith is the truth reuealed as putting great difference betweene the truth reuealed and the reuelation of truth Meet it were that the subtiltie were vaileable against S. Paul who saith Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of the Lord Which is as much to say as Panis fractio nonne c. The breaking of the bread is it not c. And therefore to speake properly it behoueth that the text of S. Paul bee subiect to such reprehensions And as touching this article that they may not enter thereinto albeit the Ministers do reply the Doctors will say no more of it as beeing a thing too much impertinent For in the end should we speake of Merit and from that matter fall into an other It troubleth them to deale with the vocation of lawfull Ministers of the Church and to eschew that matter would not alledge what they might without straying that first before we receiue their doctrine it was meete to examine whether they were Ministers lawfully sent from the true Church to preach the word of God and in their preachings to be heard of the people according to the text of S. Paul aboue alledged Which thing had they of the new Religion well considered a very sufficient argument should they haue had for not receiuing of their doctrine because it is more cleare then the day that they be not Ministers sent by the Pastors of the Church but thrust in themselues to preach vnable to shewe any signe of their calling from men and much lesse from God And were it lawfull for euery one to preach the word which saith he is sent there would be infinite Sects as we see at this time haue happened And they say no more of this matter for feare to aggrauate these things any further Touching the Article where mention is made how a man may knowe that a reuelation is of Ood where it is said by the Ministers that men should rather know it by the word then by the consent of many that maketh nothing to the purpose of the Doctors For the question is how a man should iudge a booke to containe the word of God and not to iudge of the doctrine by the word alreadie receiued The Doctors would willingly desire and doo pray the Ministers to answere directly to the very point Touching that they haue saide Of the consent of many The Doctors said not so but spake of the consent of the Church which is also as infallible as the word of God For as it is certaine that the holy Ghost is author of the Word so also is it certaine that hee is the soule of the Church by whose conduct she can neuer erre witnesse S. Paul who calleth her Columnam firmamentum veritatis The ground and pillar of truth But they will not enter into this question whether the multitude of the Church may erre or not Neuerthelesse it will not be found â—ithens the Church was planted after the death of Iesus Christ that shee hath bene of lesse number then the Sects of heretikes And that alledged of Constance and of the time of the olde Testament seruâ—th nothing to that purpose for there is great difference betweene the Synagogue of the Iewes and the Church which is the congregation of all Nations beleeuing in Iesus Christ and which cannot be or consist but in a most great multitude otherwise the promises made to the Church of the Gentiles should be vaine for it is said to Abraham that his â—eed this must not bee vnderstood of the carnall should be multiplied as the starres of heauen and the sand of the sea Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Prophets c. The Doctors do say that they confesse there is great difference betweene phantasticall imaginations and the reuelation of the holy Ghost but the Ministers doo not answere how they would proue their particular perswasions to be reuelations rather then the vaine and foolish imaginations of the Prophets which Ezechiel spake of The which notwithstanding they called inspirations and what they said and preached they called also the Word of God Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Anabaptists c. The Doctors say that to one selfe-same end doo the Ministers and Anabaptists wholly produce the selfe-same places of which mention is made that is to say to stay and assure their doctrine to be of God because therof they haue particular reuelation as God hath promised them by the Prophets And for this selfe-same cause haue the Ministers produced the said testimonies of the scripture to proue that euery faithfull man may indge by his particular inspiration if a booke do containe the word of God and distinguish a booke Canonicall from Apocrypha to iudge and discerne the true doctrine from the false which is the selfe-same foundation of the Anabaptists and other heretikes To that Article which beginneth touching that which is produced of Brentius c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not well conceiued their meaning For they bring not the saying of Brentius and Bucer but onely because they say that they know the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture by the tradition of the Church and not by particular inspiration as the Ministers Touching the Article following the Doctors say there was a time when some made doubt of certaine bookes of the Scripture as of the Apocalips the Canonicall
the Priest in the Masse from the rest of the people is an abolishment of the Communion of the Supper and consequently damnable before God And to be briefe the adoration of bread and wine be it in the Masse or out of the Masse is an intollerable Idolatrie Two points yet remaine in the writing of the Doctors whereof the Ministers will admonish them The one is that the said Ministers haue neuer found in the scriptures that faith is a humane worke but that it is the worke of God and a gift which hee bestoweth vpon his elect The other point is that they confesse they cannot bring forth one auncient Author which hath said in expresse termes that one body could not be in diuers places at one instant for so much as the contrarie thereof seemed so absurd and straunge vnto them and so much against the reason and faith which all faithfull people ought to haue that they neuer thought such an opinion had found place in the heart of any man that was called a Christian The Ministers to ende this answere say that it will much more please them to handle the questions aforesaid then to dispute of the opening of doores of the Sepulchre or of the heauens as to their great griefe they haue done these dayes passed and that for two reasons The one because that the decyding and resolution of such questions cannot bee drawne nor gathered out of the scripture And the second because it cannot much serue either to the aduancement of the honour and glorie of God or the edification and instruction of his Church Thursday the 25. day of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The Doctors reply to the writing of the Ministers sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8. of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. WHere the Ministers say that they doo great wrong to call them blasphemers seeing thereof they are innocent as Iesus Christ S. Stephen and Naboth to whome men falsly imputed such like crime The Doctors say that the Ministers therein doo imitate the good personages the Donatists who still complained of the great iniuries and slaunders which they endured said they of the Catholikes and yet men know by the histories how it was and how much they were like to Christ S. Stephen and Naboth as may also be knowne the conformitie of the said Ministers to such holy examples As much might the Anabaptists say to them of the Church called reformed when they call them heretikes And as much might and did Seruetus say who for his blasphemies was burned at Geneua reputing himselfe happie to be iudged by Caluin a blasphemer and to suffer for his doctrine the paines of death We must not therfore beleeue that the Ministers are not blasphemers because more boldly then all other heretikes they reiect the name of blasphemer but meet it is to examine whether their doctrine importeth blasphemie or not Now the Doctors say that there is no blasphemie worthy of more great execration then to denie the omnipotencie of God and no lesse it is then simply to denie that there is a God So that such deniall importes an Atheisme For to take from God that which is proper to his nature is as much to say as there is no God As it well pleaseth S. Basil writing in one of his Homilies intituled That God is not the Author of euill That it is no lesse blasphemie to say that God is author of euill then to say that God is not God In so much as to take away from God his goodnesse which to him is naturall is wholy to take away his diuinitie The like also may be said of the omnipotencie that whosoeuer denieth or diminisheth the same he denieth also his diuinitie The question then is to knowe whether the Ministers will abolish the omnipotencie of God not in proper termes for they seeme to confesse it but in affirming that the power of God is measured according to his will so that he cannot but that which he will and other like propositions contained in the precedent answere of the Ministers Whether the Doctors haue proued such propositions to containe blasphemies or no they refer them therin to euery man of sound iudgement who shal be any thing conuersant in holy scriptures and the bookes of auncient Christians which shall also be knowne by the Ministers friuolous answeres in their last writing to the Doctors obiections Who nothing maruel that the Ministers are deceiued in the nature of the omnipotencie seeing they erre in the foundation and know not wherein it lyeth and why God is called almightie For they haue learned of the scripture say they that God is almightie because hee can doo whatsoeuer he will doo and that nothing can resist him which is rather as a signe of the power of God But it is not that vnder correction wherein it consisteth for knowledge whereof it must be considered according to it obiect that is to say according to the things possible to be done so that there is nothing possible which God cannot do Now all without any exception is esteemed possible wherein is found no contradiction to be and not to be and that commeth not by default of the power of God which can do all things but of the repugnancie of the thing which cannot be Which the Ministers from the beginning had well said in euery answere but for that they had answered vpon some Interrogatories that the omnipotencie of God must bee measured by his will supposing to salue that error they are plunged in many other errors out of which for not consessing to haue erred they cannot rid themselues without falling into an infinite number of absurdities Moreouer the Ministers deceiue themselues when they will limit the power of God and not extend it to all things generally that humane spirit can conceiue or imagine For contrariwise it is doubtlesse that the power of God is great aboue all conceit and imagination of the humane spirit that it is infinite and incomprehensible as saith S. Paul God can do more then we demaund or vnderstand And where the Ministers say that God onely can doo all things which are not contrarie to his iustice wisedome goodnesse and truth and therefore cannot doo generally all things It hath alreadie beene shewed them that to bee able to doo things contrarie to the iustice wisedome goodnesse and truth of God was not power but weakenesse And by the selfe-same reason as saith Saint Augustine in the place by the Doctors in theyr former obiection alledged that he cannot do such things it is an argument of his omnipotencie and not of restraint thereof And where the Ministers inferre that because God cannot do such things he can by consequence do nothing which is contrarie to his wisedome and eternall will which is and euer shall be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any iniustice or
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
betweene the true reuelations of the Lord and the Word which proceeding from him is as true as the reuelation And the reuelation reciprocally as true as the Word Yet doth it not therefore follow that the word and the reuelations of the spirit of the Lord by the which we may be conducted to the vnderstanding of the word are not things different and that the one doth not go before the other And where the said Vigor prayeth the said De Spina to hasten to the point he answereth That he cannot else where ground his answeres then vpon the demaundes which be made vnto him Reply Whereunto the said Vigor replyed that hee referred himselfe touching the sence to that which is touched in the answere of the said De Spina And where he saith that the word goeth before the reuelation that is of no value to make difference vpon the question proposed And to come to the point the said Vigor demaundeth whether a man may be assured that he hath reuelation from the Lord that a booke is a booke of the holy Scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inward inspiration Also how he can assure any of this inspiration giuen him of the Lord Answere Touching the first Article of the last demaund It is not a thing impertinent to distinguish the scripture from the interpretation thereof inaâ—much as they bee things diuers and diuers gifts of the Lord. And to answer to the question proposed how a particular man before the reuelation and inward testimonie of the spirit of God in his heart may acknowledge that it is Canonicall The spirit of God varieth not from himselfe And abiding in one particular man he wil acknowledge the Scripture which is come from him and beareth his markes And for answere to the second demand hee also saith that the selfe same spirit beeing likewise in a third person will acknowledge both that the word and the reuelation are of him for the reasons alledged That is to say that the spirit of God in diuers persons is alwayes equall and like vnto himselfe Obiection This is no full satisfaction to the first question proposed by the which it was demaunded how some man may iudge in himselfe that hee hath the holy Ghost to discerne one Booke to be the holy Scripture and another not but Apocrypha and how he may declare vnto another that he hath his inspiration from God Answere The spirit of God is called a seale in the scripture therefore is it that the first effect which it produceth in the heart of him vnto whom it is communicated is to assure him of his presence As for assuring a secoÌ„d person of the reuelation that one hath receiued of the spirit of God it is easie Forasmuch as the spirit of God which openeth the mouth of the one to speake doth also open the eares of the other to listen to his word and the heart to beleeue it to be perswaded thereof So that betweene the maister and the scholler between the teacher and the hearer when they be both furnished and enlightened by the Spirit of God there is alwayes one mutuall consent to acknowledge one another Obiection Such certaintie is a great incertaintie And there is not any of what sect soeuer which doeth not assure himselfe to haue the holy Ghost and the trueth on his side which is a foolish presumption How can a man distinguish a presumption from a true inspiration Answere S. Iohn Chrisostome saith that in vaine a man boasteth of the spirit without the word which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge of all things which heretiques others would propose vnder the authoritie tytle of the Spirit of God For as by the spirit we know the true sence of the word so do we also mutually acknowledge by the word who those be which haue the spirit of God or no. Obiection This is no answere to the question For the question is not to examine the doctrine by the word but the question is to know whether it be the word of God by which a man will examine and approoue a doctrine And how a man shall iudge assuredly that hee hath a reuelation of the Lord that that is the word of God Answere If he be faithfull therefore shall he iudge by the Spirit of God which is in him as in him which telleth the same vnto him And if he be vnfaithfull as impossible it is that he should iudge thereof as it is to a blinde man to iudge and discerne of colours presented vnto him Forasmuch saieth S. Paul as the Spirit of God is he by whom wee know and iudge the things that are of God Obiection Yet is not this an answere to the question proposed let the iudgement thereof be left to the readers and hearers Now make they another demaund that is to say Whether we be not very certaine by the word of God that the Lord doeth assist his Church and will assist it vnto the end of the world And whether it be not a more assured thing to stay on the consent and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture the distinction of them from the Apocrypha then to leane vpon his owne iudgement esteeming it to bee an inward inspiration whereof a man can make no proofe but supposeth that he hath the holy Ghost Answere The Doctors doo confound the opinions which fantasticke men may haue with the witnesses and reuelations of the holy Ghost although betweene those two there is as much distance as is from heauen to earth And as touching the consent of the Church suppose that it proceedeth from the spirit of God Infallable it is also certaine that particular reuelations may be as of Esay and other Prophets And forasmuch as the one and the other do proceed from one selfe same Authour which is the Spirit of trueth The certaintie of the reuelations of God his Spirit made vnto all the Church in generall and to euery member of it in particular is of one selfe same moment Obiection The Minsters cannot shew to the Catholiques nor to any others that they are not fantasticall for asmuch as they make no proofe more then do other sects of the reuelation of the holy Ghost made vnto them and as touching that is said suppose that it proceedeth froÌ„ the Spirit of God They doubt it seemeth of the assistance of the holy Ghost in the Church of God which saith S. Paul is Columna firmameÌ„tuÌ„ veritatis the pillar ground of truth And a thing it is to be wel considered that they are more certain of the assistaÌ„ce of the Lord in one particular person then in the Church vniuersal And where they say that to know the truth the holy Spirit assisteth as well euery member of the Church as the whole church By that might a man conclude that the particular faithful could neuer erre that the
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
her childe-birth The fourth that Iesus Christ descended not into hell but by imagination and not really Also say the Ministers against the said article that Iesus Christ dispaired of his saluation vppon the tree of the Crosse that hee was troubled in conscience fearing to bee damned and many other errors contained in this Article Vpon which obiections they warne the Ministers to be readie to answere therevnto Answere The Ministers will bee readie to answere to the slaunders aforesaid The fift dayes Dispute on Monday the fifteenth of Iuly THe Ministers doo require that the request fomerly made and now againe repeated by the Lady of Buillon namely that the Doctors should speedily conferre with them concerning the points of the Masse may be registred to the end the occasion may be knowne why the Doctors do delay and go back from the said Conference The Doctors vnwilling to loose time and willing to pursue the last dayes agreement according wherevnto the Ministers ought to answere touching the errors contained in the doctrine by them preached against the articles of the Creed as the Doctors haue noted and proposed the same And to enter forthwith into the matter they shewe that the said Ministers haue euilly alledged Saint Ciprian for them to denie the Creed to be the Apostles For S. Ciprian doubteth not nor putteth in doubt as a thing indifferent whether it bee the Apostles or no but sheweth expresly that before they departed asunder they composed the said Creed as in the Preface of his exposition may appeare The Doctors demaund further vpon the article of the omnipotencie which is the foundation of the Supper and the holy Sacrament why the article of omnipotencie being the first and principall article of faith is not contained in the confession proposed by the mouth of Beza at Poissy before the King and many times since and inserted in many bookes And why they haue made so many different confessions of faith taking out of one what they haue put in and adding contrariwise to others that they haue omitted And how it happeneth that the article of the Trinitie is not expresly in the first confession of the 1564. yeare which yet they do confesse in all obscuritie Answere It shall appeare by the last dayes acts that the Ministers haue required what they yet require for the present namely that the point of the Masse bee first put forth to be decided because it is the chiefe occasion for which the Conference was appointed And concerning that they propose touching the Creed the Ministers neuer doubted nor yet do they doubt but that it is a pure Apostolike doctrine Which to euery man that shall read the acts of the last day aforesaid may appeare where at least in halfe a dozen places they haue alwaies confessed and repeated the same And that which they haue maintained to be doubtfull is onely whether the Creed were written by the Apostles themselues or not whereof nothing can appeare to be verified by the Doctors And S. Ciprian himselfe whom the Doctors haue produced in his Preface doth aduertise the readers of the great varietie there is touching the said Creed for as much as diuers Churches haue added therevnto diuers articles He doth also aduertise them that he followeth in his explication the order of the Church of Aquilea Yea and expounding the article of the discention into hell of which the Doctors make so much adoo he specially saith that it is not in the Creed of the Romane Church nor yet of the Easterne Churches Whence may bee gathered the incertaintie of that aboue said and that there is no article of which men may reasonably doubt whether it be of the number of those which the Apostles haue written or whether some Church hath added the same or else it must bee said that the Apostles had written diuers Creeds And for the difference which the Doctors doo pretend to be in the confessions of the reformed Churches printed and published at sundry times the Ministers denie them as touching the sence to differ one from the other although for more ample declaration thereof some tearmes haue possibly bene chaunged And where they propose that in some of them the article of the omnipotencie of God was omitted the Ministers doo denie it and require the Doctors to bring forth a copie of the confession in which they maintaine the same to haue bene omitted for were it so it should be falsified and corrupted Adding that there is nothing in their confession doubtfull or obscure which some of the said Doctors haue well declared when they made a forme of confession by the patterne of that of the reformed Churches vsing the proper tearmes and sentences vnto which they added nothing to make it varie that excepted for which they are in difference with the Ministers and which they would hardly ground vpon the scriptures Obiection The Doctors say that the Ministers by their deniall that S. Ciprian holdeth the Apostles were Authors makers and composers of the Creed do sufficiently shewe how bolde they are to denie things manifest All which they referre to the auditory present and to the readers of this writing For ground of which deniall they rest vpon a simple reason to wit vpon the article of the discention into hell whether it were inserted by the Apostles or added by others to make it doubtfull whether they are Authors of all the other Articles For it is as if a man should say it is vncertaine whether Saint Iohn composed his Gospell because there bee that doubt whether the Historie of the Adulteresse bee of him But leauing that the Doctors demaund whether they confesse not by their doctrine that God by his almightinesse cannot cause one body to be in two places two bodies in one place Thirdly that God cannot cause a body to be inuisible Fourthly that one body may be in one place without holding place equall to it greatnesse Answere All these questions are impertinent and enstranged from the confession of the Churches which neuerthelesse the Doctors haue chosen for foundation of all the Conference Wherfore the Ministers require that they dispute to the purpose and choose one article or many of the said confession whervpon they pretend to build their said questions Obiection These questions are very pertinent to impugne the Articles of the Ministers confession For the question is not of the proper words contained in the said confession which is not but a Summary of the faith but the Doctors will impugne the sence of the Articles which they doo knowe by their proper writings By which they openly witnesse touching the article of the omnipotencie that God cannot doo the things aforesaid And the Doctors do shewe that it well and fitly serueth to impugne the doctrine of heretickes and for the true meanes to proue against them that they receiue not the holy scripture when they proue that they receiue not the true sence thereof They say also that the Ministers themselues hauing desired
because men do alledge propose many things to the contrary To the end therefore that God and his Angels bee maintained true in their words it must not be doubted but God can much more easily change and alter his creatures and all their qualities then a Potter can play with his clay and forme at his pleasure some vessell thereof Moreouer there is daunger that if we limit Gods power towards his creatures wee fall to denie him his Lordship and dominion ouer them For no other thing is it to be Lord of a creature then to haue power to change alter and giue it such a nature and qualitie best pleasing to him as hauing the same in his owne power And therefore God in Ieremy to shewe that hee had power to destroy and ruinate or to maintaine Ierusalem as seemed him good saith I am the Lord of all flesh is there any thing too hard for me Therefore the Doctors do conclude that there is daunger if this question bee maintained as impossible to God that each one therein will dare as much alledging the same examples which the Ministers do to exempt from the power of God euery thing shall displease him And when men shall produce vnto him such things out of the scripture he may interpret the scripture in an other sence saying that such a thing shall be impossible to God by the naturall sence of the words of the scripture Euen as the Ministers doo change and alter the scripture which saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places To wit the word of the Supper compared with that of the Ascention and say that that of the Supper ought not to bee vnderstood litterally for that one body should be in two places is impossible to God So say the Doctors that each one wil corrupt the litterall sence of the scriptures saying that the thing is impossible vnto God And therefore must the scriptures be otherwise vnderstood And notwithstanding it may bee because it displeaseth him and yet will hee bring forth the selfe-same reasons and allegations as do the Ministers to shewe that all things are not possible to God The Doctors do againe conclude that it is better to maintaine the scripture in the truth thereof albeit it propose in our iudgements incomprehensible and impossible things then to open a gap for euery one to depraue the word of God to raunge and subiect it to his will and iudgement vnder shadow of saying that it is impossible to God and alledging for the same some examples They will not omit that the Ministers who haue often protested to relye vpon the pure word of God do alledge only auncient Doctors against the power of God flying for aide to them against Gods expresse word which importeth that generally without exception there is nothing impossible to him Answere The Minister answere that the Doctors proue not their consequence and that they leaue it for some distrust they haue as is likely that they are not able to proue it They mentiō but the antecedent of their said consequence to the confession whereof it is not possible for them to lead the Ministers by their reasons and authorities alledged to weaken their said consequence for as much as of one particular they inferre a generall which is contrary to the rules of Logicke And where they say that the authorities alledged by the Ministers nothing serue to reproue their consequence and to shew that God leaueth not to be almightie although he cannot do any thing which doth derogate to his nature they referre themserues therein to the said auncient authors which for the same end and reasons as the Ministers doo alledge and propose the aboue said exceptions Where they pretend that the authorities and sentences alledged out of the auncient Fathers do nought appertaine to the present question for as much as they denie that they should be vnderstood of other things but those only which do containe in themselues contradiction The Ministers do answere that so also doth that which they propose of a body that at on selfe instant it may be in diuers places For as much is it as if they should say that a body is and is not at one selfe-same time and that a body is one and is not one Also that a creature is incircumscriptible and not inclosed within certaine limits which happening it should no more be a creature but God As may bee gathered of that which S. Basil writeth in his booke of the holy Ghost Chapter 22. saying thus The Angell that appeared to Cornelius was not in the same place where Phillip was And he that spake to Zacharie from the Aultar filled not whiles hee spake vnto him his seate and place in heauen But the holy Ghost is in Habacuck and Daniel in Babylon and in Ezeehiel vpon the floud of Chobar for the spirit of God doth fill the earth And the Prophet writing thereof saith Where shall I hide me from thy spirit or whither shall I flye from thy presence Didymus in his booke of the holy Ghost confirming that aboue said saith thus Were the spirit of God a creature his substance should he haue circumscript and limitted as haue all things made and created As then so it is that the spirit of God doth fill the world and is not circumscript nor in any place limitted therof it followeth that he is God Vigilius in the disputation hee wrote betweene Sabellius Photius Arrius and Athanasius vnder the person of Athanasius thus writeth Thereby may it chiefly appeare that the spirit of God is God that he is euerie where and is not contained in any one place as the Prophet writeth Whither shall I flye to hide me from thy spirit Of these places may we conclude that if a body bee not circumscript finished and closed in certaine limits it is not a creature which ought to bee vnderstood not onely of other bodies but of that also of Iesus Christ himselfe as appeareth by that which Theodoret writeth in his second Dialogue where hee thus saith Then is the body of our Lord risen exempted from all corruption impassible and immortall adorned with diuine glory adored and worshipped of the heauenly powers Neuerthelesse albeit it be in such sort qualified yet ceaseth it not therefore to be circumscript as it was before it was glorified whereof it followeth that being a true body and a creature it cannot be in diuers places at one instance Whereas they alledge that the foresaid examples do nothing pertaine to the question proposed for as much as in it the question is onely to know whether God can chaunge the qualities in a substance the substance remaining The Ministers do denie it because in the question there is mentiō of a body which cannot be without hs measure Now the measures and demensions are not as qualities and accidents which may happen to a body and depart from it without corrupting thereof which is the nature and condition of accidents but are
naturall proprietie of a body can make a great and thicke body to passe in a space and place vnequall to it greatnesse largenesse and thicknesse The Doctors cyted what our Lord saith in the 19. of S. Mathew It is easier for a Cable to goe through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen Two things haue the Ministers answered vnto the one that in the translation wee must not vse Cable but rather Camel although neuertheles their own French Bible of Anthony Rebulls impression which they haue brought containeth the translation of this word Cable And Caluin himself likewise in his Hermony of the foure Euangelists saith that to bee better But here in appeareth to be truth what Tertullian against the Valentinians and before him Ireneus in his first booke and 14. Chapter against the Valentinians doo say That they which seperate themselues from vs to go to an other schoole do alwaies inuent some new thing that the disciples may bee found more cunning then their Maisters But well this word Camell beeing yeelded vnto them as the Doctors doubt not to haue bene expounded by Saint Hillary S. Ierom and others the reason thereof is yet more strong For it is yet more repugnant that a crooked grosse and great Camell then a Cable should enter through the eye of a needle The other reason giuen by the Ministers is that God cannot make a Camel or Cable to enter throgh the eye of a needle which is notwithstanding against the pure word of Iesus Christ who saith not it is is impossible to God but rather easie to do that and by comparison more easie vnto God then to make a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen which neuerthelesse is said by our Lord to be possible not vnto men but vnto God to whom there is nothing vnpossible Whervpō the Doctors say thus If God can do that which is more difficult he can doo that which is more easie Now by the text of the scripture it is said that God can make a rich man enter into the kingdome of heauen which is the more difficult he can therfore make a Camell or Cable to enter through the eye of a needle which is more easie The answeres of the Ministers here aboue confuted tend to such absurdities and blasphemies that Iesus Christ by his almightinesse could not enter through the closed doores that hee could not come forth of the belly of his mother through her body without fraction that he could not make a visible body to be inuisible that a grosse and great body might be in a place vnequall to it that hee could not by his diuine power make penetration of dimensions and that he could not make by the same diuine power one body to bee in two places for it is like reason of the last article and of the others albeit such things are declared in the scriptures not onely to be possible but euen the most part of them to haue bene done And the Doctors do wonder how the Ministers dare denie such things seeing themselues must necessarily confesse if their doctrine of the Supper be true that the body of Iesus Christ is in diuers places which they proue thus The faithfull really receiue in their soules the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ by the working of the holy Ghost and not the bread and the wine onely or else as saith Caluin in the 4 booke 17. Chapter and 11. section of his Institution the effect and vertue of the same Sacrament Now the Doctors conclude thus It is impossible for a man to receiue into him the substance of the body of Iesus Christ but the body of Iesus Christ is in him But all the faithfull in the Supper do receiue the same into their soules therefore must the body of Iesus Christ be in them and by consequent in diuers places to wit in all places where their Supper is made and likewise in heauen They say further that Caluin in his Institution the fourtth booke 17. Chapter and 24. sect saith That in the Supper the power of God is required to the ende that the flesh of Iesus Christ may pierce euen vnto vs and that humane nature cannot comprehend the same But it behoueth that the power of God doo worke therein And by this meane Caluin doth admit by the power of God the flesh of Iesus Christ in many places to wit in heauen and in vs into whom it must pierce by the power of God And in the tenth number he saith That the truth signified and represented by the signes must bee represented and exhibited in the same place where the signes be Which hee proueth by reason in many places to wit that the signes must no more bee voyd then the Doue was voyd of the holy Ghost But as the essence and substance of the holy Ghost was conioyned and present with the Doue so the flesh and bloud of our Lord before there be a true Sacrament must be conioyned and vnited with the signes The passages are against Heshusius and in his booke of the Supper and vpon the first of the 11. Chapter to the Corinthians And although the Ministers will answere the Doctors beseech them well to weigh and consider the text of Caluin and of the reason he giueth of the holy Ghost They doo obiect further that the Ministers in their Supper doo attribute more to the humane power then to the omnipotencie of God yea they do more then God can do which is that they brag to do a thing by their faith which implyeth contradiction saying in their confession of faith exhibited to the Bishops in the congregatiō at Poissy That faith maketh things absent to be present in one selfe-same instant and place That is to say in the soules of the faithfull when they celebrate their Supper which is as much to say as faith maketh things not present present at one selfe-same instant and place So that to euery faithfull in the Supper comming worthily therevnto is the body of Iesus Christ there present by the power of faith And neuerthelesse it is not there present for they say so and that it is onely in heauen Wherein appeareth that there is implication of contradiction to wit present not really present And the small starting hole they told vs of that the body is aboue corporally and spiritually in the Supper in the harts of the faithfull can serue for nothing For the spiritualtie cannot take away the substance of the thing and their faith cannot make a body not to be a body and that a body haue not it dimensions as heretofore they haue said Therefore howsoeuer they confesse that the faithfull in the Supper receiue into their soules the substance of the body of Iesus Christ will they or nill they must they necessarily confesse that either their faith is more mightie then the infinite vertue and power of God or else that God can make
body Moreouer in numbring of the errors sometimes coÌ„demned by the facultie of Paris it is expresly said That the heauen by them called Empyreum is the place of Angels of blessed spirits and glorified humane bodies Where the Doctors pretend that of the doctrine which the Ministers maintaine that a body cannot be without place nor in many places at one instant may be inferred that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God The Ministers contrariwise say that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie and diminish the same in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone to wit to be vncircumscript As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost where he proueth that the holy Ghost is God not a creature because he is incircumscript and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript and limited As much thereof also say S. Basil and Vigilius and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke Where they confesse that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript although they be not corporall This reason is against themselues and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies to wit that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place For by an argument froÌ„ the lesse to the more If the Angels which want dimension and measure by their own confession in as much as they be creatures be necessarily circumscript by a more strong reason the bodies of men which be creatures and measured shall be so likewise And where they adde that the auncient Fathers haue not said that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn which is recited De consec distinct 2. C. Prima quideÌ„ Where speaking of the body of Iesus Christ he saith namely It behooueth that the body of our Lord wherin he rose again be in one place teaching therby that at one selfe-same time it cannot be in diuers places And touching the reason they adde taken froÌ„ the Sacrament to proue their assertioÌ„ the Ministers say that the fathers neuer vnderstood nor said that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen and in the Sacrament in one selfe same sort maner nor do they teach that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament And wheras in their resolutioÌ„ they pretend to proue that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons then they wil answere therevnto That which they say of a body it being dispoiled of it dimensions ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding is a very absurd thing For did it happen that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions it should no more be a body but an incorporeall substance of like nature as the Angels spirits And although God by his power can seperate the dimensioÌ„s of a substance without corrupting it yet can it not be that they be seperated froÌ„ a body without the corruptioÌ„ of the same Because the quantitie dimensions are accidents of the substance but not of the body which cannot subsist without them in as much as they be of it proper essence Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection that the waight in a body is a thing essentiall The Ministers do deny it And the reason is that were it of the essence of a bodie and the same wanting the bodie should cease to bee Neuerthelesse we see that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection doth not leaue to be subsist although it be now exempted from all waight And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither one body at one instant may be also in diuers places The Ministers not graunting the antecedent vnder correction say that the consequence is not good and that the argument is very weake Adding therto that the Doctors haue nor prooued and neuer can prooue by the scriptures nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers nor by any sufficient reason that which they propose in their antecedent or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place alledge out of the scripture that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were the doores being shut The Ministers do answere that it is not written that he entred through the closed doores but only the doores being shut which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where mention is made of that aboue said Cuum fores essent clausae Then when the doores were shut Iesus came c. Neuertheles the Ministers say they verily belieue and are assured of that which the scripture doth clearly say to wit that the doores being shut he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples But they cannot certainly define nor determine which way he entered whether it were through the walles or doores of wood which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings alledged by the Doctors Howsoeuer it be the Ministers do say that in entering he miraculously made way And that a body be it the wood or wall did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment as before hath bâ—ne said And that howsoeuer it was done two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine in his booke de agone Christiano that Iesus Christ entered through the doores The Ministers deny not that he entred through the doores but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores that the doores at his entire gaue him place as is said For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition that it was a vaine vision it nought appertaineth to the present matter nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry which was miraculous as they euer confessed And touching that which they adde afterwards in the opinion held by the olde heretiques of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it was not a true bodie because it did things aboue nature The Ministers doo shewe them that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it doth things not only aboue nature but also contrary to nature yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God And there is no doubt but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques which
are well done and ordained although that the reason and order therein be oftentimes vnknowne to men which Salomon wrote saying God maketh all things good in their season Wherevnto may be also applied that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature And it followeth not that that which is new to custome is contrary and repugnant to reason c. If the Doctors will know more thereof let them reade the two bookes of Order which this holy man composed and that which he wrote concerning myracles in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies which follow in the obiection of the Doctors Concerning the fourth the Ministers for answer say that the will of God after the doctrine of Diuines may in two sorts be cōsidered to wit according to that which by words signes and effects is declared to men and according to that which is reteined hidden in himselfe The one is called the will knowne by signes and the other the will of the good pleasure of God For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors that God can do many things which he will not do But as touching the other they say that it is equall to his power as is also his power in this respect equall to his will According to which consideration the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors ought to be vnderstood and expounded As all those may iudge which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod are yet constrained here to repeate that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth It must not be said without any determination that all things are possible to God For who so absolutely saith this comprehendeth all things as well good as bad which no way ought to be attributed to God whereby it appeareth that this good author and the other before alledged by the Ministers haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God but excepted from the same whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence To be briefe but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant and the Doctors which affirme the cōtrary to wit that the Doctors without taking so long circuit loosing so many words and alledging so many superfluous things do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture that God willeth the same Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended that quantitie is essentiall to a body and not accidentall as hold the Doctors they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors to wit that there is no place aboue the heauens that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there without any distinction or distance of place the Ministers say that touching all these points they rather beleeue the scripture and expresse word of God by them alledged then all the subtilties sophistries of vaine Philosophie which the Doctors or others can propose Ioyned herevnto that it is expresly cōteined taught in one of the articles of our faith where it is said Frō whence he shall come to iudge the quick the dead Wherevpon must bee noted that there is Vnde an Aduerbe signifying place As touching the 4. and 5. articles to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true they send backe the readers to the precedent conference And also to know in what sence and to what end the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers which they may easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted For the 6. article wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false then accusing their authoritie to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody and that to be such it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine whence the said Canon is taken it is easie to iudge that the word Oportet is there much more conuenient then that of Potest To the 8. article the Ministers answere that a substance is not without quantitie and whiles it is such and so remaineth it cannot any waies be a body And the reason is because that of the substance and that of the quantitie are two diuers predicaments vnder which one selfe-same thing for one selfesame respect cannot be any way comprised Moreouer Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit but that hee had members and parts which in respect of their measures might bee handled and touched Whence it followeth that without this a substance cannot be a body And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie if that were possible the Ministers say that although they were substances both in number and different they should neuerthelesse be like as touching the kinde and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article because it is but a repetition and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate To the 10. article the Ministers answere that the consequence whereof is the question cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors but by the rule which saith that of one absurditie may all things be inferred Moreouer they complaine of time which the Doctors make them loose by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende then to fill vp paper and to make men thinke they say something For first the Euangelist saith not as the Doctors pretend that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores but onely that he came the gates beeing shut So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry nor how the doores were opened or other place about the house by the which he entered And all that which the Doctors say cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged which bee more against them then with
the feare of God or any zeale of his honour to be wise and attentiue to weigh and discouer the sayd subtilties and practises of the Diuell and not to beleeue all spirites before they haue well sounded and tryed them and that they also approue not all the things which vnder the name of God may be proposed vnto them and which at the first may seeme to tende and appertaine to his honour and glorie but that they remember the Apostles admonition to try the spirites and that they verie carefully regarde the ende and scope of those which propose vnto them such doctrine And if there be any thing wherin heed must be taken of such cosonages and fraudes which are layd to surprise the simple it is needfull chiefly in this matter of the Omnipotency of God whereof is the present question For the Ministers do confesse that it ought to be knowne beleeued and vniuersally adored of all creatures in heauen and in earth Moreouer they confesse that the faithfull cannot haue a better foundation nor better rampert to leane vnto and sustaine themselues against all the endeuours as well of the diuel the world and their other enemies as also to be short of all the temptations wherewith they might bee assayled and befieged This Omnipotency they confesse is the hinge of the axeltree as it were wherevpon the world with all it parts is turned and sustained They confesse moreouer that the same Omnipotency is not only venerable to the Angels and blessed spirits in heauen and to the elect and Saints vpon earth but also terrible to the reprobates and diuels in hell So that the one doth willingly embrace and submit themselues vnto it and the others are constrained to bow vnder it and yeeld vnto and obey the same Lastly they confesse that it is infinite and of incomprehensible greatnesse to all creatures as the wisedome goodnesse Iustice truth and the other vertues and proprieties of our God This is that which the Ministers beleeue and confesse of the Omnipotency of God and that which they thinke all Christians ought thereof to beleeue and hold Now to make good vse of this Almightinesse and to apply it as is meete we must iudge thereof according to his will and of his will according to his word So that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God all things good and euill ordered and disordered agreeable and contrary to his nature false and true But to well rule and order the thoughts and cogitations of Gods Omnipotencie presenting themselues in our hearts we must for our part measure the same according to his holy will and beleeue that it cannot be limitted letted nor hindred by any other will or power which wil or may be opposite vnto it Which thing S. Augustine well teacheth in many places as in the fift booke and 10. Chapter of the Cittie of God where speaking of God hee saith That he is called almightie because he doth all whatsoeuer he will and suffereth nothing if he will it not Also in the seuenth Chapter of the 21. booke For no other reason but this onely is he called Almightie that he can do all whatsoeuer he will doo Also in the first Chapter of the booke De Symbolo ad Catec Our God saith he doth all that which he will do and that is his Almightinesse Also in the 119. Sermon De tempore He is Almightie to do all things that he will do and ordaineth to be done These sentences and many other lyke found in the writings of that good Father and other Auncients do clearly teach vs the maner how we may well make profit of the faith we haue of the omnipotency of God That is in bringing vs backe to his will and iudging of his will by his word and not by the false imaginations which therof we may conceiue in our minds or that others would propose vnto vs As did Sathan to Iesus Christ whom he would haue induced to cast downe himselfe headlong vnder a vaine trust of helpe from the omnipotencie of God Euen so also the Monarchians who vnder colour and pretext of Gods omnipotencie which of some myracles they gathered would proue and establish their heresies and take away the personall distinction which is betweene the Father and the sonne saying That God being Almightie could therefore make himselfe Father and sonne together Of the Anabaptists in these last times is it also found that for a vaine assurance which they put in the omnipotency of God hoping he could nourish them as he did the byrds would not labour Many such lyke more great inconueniences may happen to all those that hauing such wandering and stragling thoughts of the Omnipotency of God wil not restraine nor reduce them to his will And this we see is besalue the Doctors who willing to apprehend and measure the omnipotencie of God by their owne imaginations rather then by his will and word are as saith S. Paul become vaine in their imagination and their foolish heart is filled with darknesse And willing to behold the Maiestie of God out of the limits and bounds which hee had shewed them in his word haue bene intrapped and ouerwhelmed of his glorie And that is befalne them which in their resolution they themselues haue touched to wit that for not hauing taken the word of God for their guide nor followed the steppes and pathes of his holy spirit they do erre from the faith which contrarie to that which the Doctors doo thinke is not destroyed nor ouerthrowne by the consideration of the creatures and workes of God which are as a myrror of his glorie and diuinitie but in as much as by them wee were turned away from the promises of God by the which we are assured of his will and almightinesse which doth warrant and assure vs of the effects and accomplishment of this holy will Which may bee seene and clearly obserued in them that were sent by Moyses to espie out and know the Land of the Cananites Two of which namely Iosua and Caleb could neuer be withdrawne from the trust they had in theyr God For as much as turning their mindes from the consideration of all things which could make them doubt thereof as of the Fortresse and munition of Cities the number force weapons and experience of the countrie Inhabitants they stayed their minds in the sole consideration of the promises which God had made vnto thē Cōtrariwise the others forgetting the same promises nought cōsidering but that which they saw before their eyes they fell and caused all the people to fall with them into that cursed and damnable infidelitie for which they were so grieueuously punished in the wildernesse and excluded from enterance therevnto and enioying of that thing which God had promised to theyr Fathers And in the example of Abrahā whose faith abode firme and stable by the consideration chiefly of the promise and will of God as S. Paul declareth So that the consideration of
all power without exception ouer the creatures and by written examples and straunge my racles wrought vpon their bodies against the nature of them Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection saith To the end wee may beleeue that our God is more mightie then all lawe and nature of all bodies And addeth that they knowe God amisse who thinke that is not in his power which they in their braine cannot comprehend From whence it commeth as saith S. Cyrill that such wicked spirits doo reiect and condemne all things as impossible because they themselues do not vnderstand them Moreouer the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently shewed as well by expresse scripture as by the expositions thereof taken from auncient Christians that it was not onely in the power of God to make two bodies in one place and one body without place equall to it greatnesse but that alreadie it was truly done in the birth of the body of our Lord Iesus Christ in his resurrection in the entrie through the closed doores and in the ascention aboue all the heauens And the Doctors haue shewed that there was like and semblable repugnancie in these deeds as in the other that is of one body in two places which is not exempted by the scripture from the power nor will of God more then the others to iudge it impossible to bee done and that there was neuer Christian before our time which dared to affirme that thing to be impossible â—nd out of the power of God although occasion was often offered to say it had they any way thought it impossible as the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion do pretend Contrariwife the most part of the auncient authors of the Primitiue Church haue held it expresly to be in Gods power to place one creature in many places as held Saint Ierome against the heretike Vigillantius that the soules of the Saints might be present in many places with the immaculate Lambe our Lord Iesus Christ And the question was whether the said soules and spirits of the Saints were sometimes present in the Churches where their Sepulchres and monuments were And so much thereof holdeth S. Augustine in the 16 Chap. of the booke which he wrote of the due care of the dead where he writeth that soules by the power of their owne nature cannot be here belowe and in heauen or in many places but that it may be done by the power of God and will not resolue whether they vnderstand our affaires by such a presence in many places or by the reuelation of Angels or other meanes by the power and grace of God Also it is certain that in the matter of the holy Sacrament the auncient Fathers of the Church haue acknowledged and maintained that the bodie of Iesus Christ was in many places by the almightie power of God As doth S. Ambrose vpon the tenth of the Epistle to the Hebrewes and Saint Chrisostome in his 17. Homily vpon the same Epistle Where both two as it were in like words do write that although in many places there are many actions and oblations of the body of Iesus Christ neuerthelesse hauing regard to the thing which is offered to wit the true lambe and body of Christ Iesus that this sacrifice in many places offered is but one for so much as it is but one selfe-same thing to wit the true lambe and the true body of Iesus Christ which is but one and abideth whole in all places where it is offered They adde also that the oblations of him in diuers places is not an iteration of the sacrifice of the Crosse but in commemoration of him So that in the sacrifice of the Masse they acknowledge and distinguish two points The one which concerneth the realtie of the thing offered and they say that this is the true lambe and true body of Iesus Christ which then remaining intierly one is neuerthelesse in many places And the other concerneth the action and oblation of such thing by the Priest which is no iteration nor like action or oblation as that of the Crosse but diuerse in remembrance notwithstanding of that was made vpon the Crosse S. Chrisostome in the third booke of Priesthood cryeth out saying Oh myracle and power of God! He which sitteth on high at the right hand of his Father is held betweene the hands of each one in the Sacrament S. Augustine vpon the 33. Psalme sheweth that the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper was in two places that is to say in it visible place among his Apostles and neuerthelesse betweene his owne hands So that he himselfe did beare himselfe And before he concludeth the same Saint Augustine debateth how it was possible that one person should beare his body betweene his hands And after he had shewed that it was impossible for Dauid and cuerie creature he descended at last to the diuine power which was in Iesus Christ by the which to him alone among all men such myracle was possible And to the ende that men should not depraue nor wrest the meaning of S. Augustine because there is something which after a sort is carried as though it diminished the truth let them note that the purpose of S. Augustine is to shewe that Iesus by his almightinesse did carrie himselfe which to any creature was impossible Now had he onely in the Supper borne betweene his hands the figure of the Sacrament and signe of his body and not his true and reall body hee should haue done nothing but what the least man might do For each man can carrie betwixt his hands the figure Image signe or Sacrament of his body or sticke it in his hat without myracle or supernaturall power It be houeth then that the certaine maner which S. Augustine vseth doth nothing diminish the truth and this it is that betweene his hands he was inuisible and in a supernaturall maner of being reall neuerthelesse and true S. Basil in his Liturgie with the others auoucheth the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and by his almightinesse notwithstanding to bee present in the Sacrament although the Ministers to proue it impossible for one body or one other creature to be in many places do chiefly build vpon S. Basil but the said S. Basil in the place by the Ministers alledged doth expresly protest not to speake but according to the naturall proprietie And in his Liturgie he declareth that it is not onely in the power of God to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and vpon the Aultar but that it is so truly done The Doctors to end this question of one body in many places say that such matter is not onely in the power of God but that it must so be beleeued to bee done in the holy Sacrament that God be not found a lyar and deceiuer in his word whereby Iesus affirmed to his Apostles that that which he gaue with his hands was his true body deliuered for vs. This is an argument which
Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection maketh after hee had disputed against them which denied the same to be possible with God And it seemeth they then said as the Ministers haue formerly said that there was something by the scriture impossible with God to wit that he could not lye nor deceiue and that thereof they tooke occasion to goe further and to dispute that the resurrection was to him also impossible So that the Ministers because God cannot lye haue endeuouted â—o inferre that to put one body in two places was impossible for him as well as to lye and deceiue Tertullian in the end accordeth with the Marcionists and saith Rather had I confesse that God cannot deceiue and that hee is onely weake and impotent in deceit to the end that thereby hee seeme not to haue taught and spoken one way and to haue otherwise disposed of the deed contained in his word Then if hee cannot concludeth Tertullian deceiue and abuse the resurrection must be beleeued as it is carried in his word and not otherwise least deceit be found in the word of God The Doctors say also they willingly confesse that God cannot lye nor deceiue and that it must therefore be beleeued that so he hath willed and ordained the truth of the Supper in such sort and not otherwise as his word soundeth and beareth Now so it is that his word plainly and expresly beareth that he affirmeth that what hee gaue with his hands to his Apostles to eat was his body deliuered for vs we must therefore beleeue that his word saith not otherwise then his will is least he be esteemed a lyar And that as he saith This is my body This is my bloud that it is so indeed The which the Doctors by Gods assistance will declare in the next Conference to shewe that he hath not onely power to establish his body in the holy Sacrament but also that he hath willed it and so hath done it Artictles proposed by the Doctosr for the next Conference and others following according to the order of the said Articles ALthough following the order of Conference touching the Apostles Creed they ought secondly to entreate of an other article as the Ministers themselues in the beginning of the Conference not onely accorded but demaunded offering the imprinted Articles of their confession bearing date the 1564. yeare from the first vnto the last to be examined by the Doctors Neuerthelesse the Doctors seeing it will not be much from the purpose after they haue intreated of the omnipotencie of God which extendeth to bee powerfull to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and in the Sacrament in continuing that matter to enter into the probation of his will they are content to shewe that he hath not power onely but that also he hath wil and are consequently determined to refute all the blasphemies and heresies contained in their Supper which are called reformed to the end also they be not deemed to flye the list touching the Supper and the Masse as the Ministers haue reproached them Neuerthelesse they protest that their meaning is after the conclusion of this matter and resolution giuen to returne to examine the wonderfull errors of the Ministers which in number are many against the other articles of the Creed which thing the Ministers vnwilling that the Doctors should pursue the order begun do greatly feare as one may see and iudge foreseeing that in the next Conference an other blasphemie would be shewed them which the Church calling it selfe Reformed against the goodnesse of God after Caluins doctrine maintaineth to wit that God worketh in the reprobate the euill and sinne they commit which is an execrable Atheisme and no lesse then the deniall of the omnipotencie of God And they that can read these Conferences continuing to the ende of the discussion of the Ministers errors and of their religioÌ„ against all the articles of the Creed shall bee likewise abashed to vnderstand the absurdities and blasphemies issuing from the same An other point there is yet which inuiteth the Ministers to demaund tractation of the Supper which is that they haue the whole matter alreadie squared by many of their Sect who haue written of the same And chiefly the great booke of Peter Martir will not faile them Wherby they shal be furnished with I know not what infamous obiectioÌ„s of some passages of the Fathers broken depraued or euilly applied to impugne in shew the truth of the body in the Sacrament But for defence of all other their errors the Ministers are meanely armed and their conscience doth sufficiently witnesse that by the scripture decision of generall Councells and common accord of the writings of all the auncient Fathers no apparance to the contrary they are conuinced and condemned of their errors against the said Creed Now to enter into the examination of the Supper of the Ministers the Doctors do maintaine that it is a prophane eating and drinking not differing from common eating and drinking but in that it is worse that they abuse the holy institution of the Supper of Iesus and pollute and defile such their banket with all impietie blasphemie They also maintaine that the Ministers do great iniurie to the Sacrament of Iesus Christ falsly to attribute to such their prophane and polluted banket the name of Sacrament And to the end that the proofe thereof be more cleare the Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they receiue one common doctrine receiued not only in the Church Catholique but also almost in all Sects which are seperated from it That is that in the confection of the Sacraments there be two essentiall and necessarie things the matter or element and the word Secondly what word with the Element is necessary to make a Sacrament and namely that which the Ministers do call the Sacrament of the Supper and whether it behoueth to vse certaine words or no Thirdly whether the word haue some power or effectuall working in the Sacrament what whether it worke vpon something in the matter of the bread and wine Fourthly whether by the same word consecration bee made of the matter of the Sacrament or no Fiftly whether by the word consecration be not made of the matter to wit how the same consecration is made and by what vertue the same is made Sixtly whether besides the bread and wine and the spirituall graces and benefites of Iesus Christ the true body and bloud of Iesus Christ in their proper substance and not in spirituall effect onely be really receiued in the Supper And the Doctors do demand vpon this article a plaine confession of the faith of the Ministers They demaund further whether in receiuing the bread before taking of the wine they receiue not by the eating of the bread the body and bloud of Iesus Christ or the body onely Briefly whether they admit that which Diuines call a Concomitance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ They demaund also whether