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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09108	A revievv of ten publike disputations or conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares, vnder K. Edward & Qu. Mary, concerning some principall points in religion, especially of the sacrament & sacrifice of the altar. VVherby, may appeare vpon how vveake groundes both catholike religion vvas changed in England; as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions, and offer themselues to the fire for the same, vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said disputations. By N.D.; Review of ten publike disputations.	Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610.	1604 (1604)	STC 19414; ESTC S105135	194,517	376

to aduenture vpon so great a change in beleefe as this was after so many yeares being a Priest and Catholike Bishopp and offeringe sacrifice after the manner of the Catholike Church from the first day of our contreyes conuersion vnto th' end of K. Henryes raigne His motiues were as yow heare certayne places of the scripture which were only taken out of the Epistle to the Hebrues talkinge of Christs bloudy sacrifice on the crosse which was but one certayne places of the Fathers to witt two or three misvnderstood out of S. Augustine and one out of Fulgentius all which notwithstandinge proue nothinge for his purpose as after yow shall see declared in their place and turne And the selfe same Fathers haue so many other cleere places to the contrary as we will desire no better iudges for proofe of our Catholike cause then yf Ridley would remitt himselfe to these two Fathers iudgements by him cyted against vs for that both of them do professe themselues to be Priests and to offer externall sacrifice vpon the Altar as our Priests do now 27. Consider then how wise and constant a man Ridley was to leaue his ancient faith so generally receaued throughout all Christendome in his dayes and so many yeares practised by himselfe vpon two such motiues as are certayne places of scripture misvnderstood by himselfe and certayne testimonyes of Fathers that seemed to him to haue some difficulty Which Ieuity vvas so displeasaunt vnto almighty God as by the effects we see that wheras at the beginning he seemed to doubt vpon these two motiues leauinge other men to iudge therof he became by little and little to be so obstinately blinded at length therin as albeit some foure or fiue yeares after he were openly conuicted in disputations at Oxford as by his answers yow shall afterwards see yet was he content to burne for the same which was the highest degree of calamity that could fall vpon him in body and soule And thus much of him and his determination for the present Sixt Disputation §. 6. 28. In all the former disputations both at Oxford and Cambridge yow shall find nothinge of friar Martyn Bucer no not so much as that he is once named in all these conflicts about the blessed Sacrament And yet yow must remember that he was principall reader of diuinity in Cambridge at this tyme as Peter Martyr was in Oxford and therfore as the first place was giuen to the said Peter in Oxford so yt is likely that the same would haue byn to Martyn in Cambridge yf they had found him so pliable to their hands in his opinions about the Sacrament as the other was but in no case would he be induced as yet to accommadate himselfe therin and therfore had he not any part allowed him in this comedy eyther of defendant opponent disputer counselour moderator assistant or other office or imployment nay yt is thought that he incurred so great disgrace about this matter as he could willingly haue departed the realme againe as Bernardinus Ochinus vpon such like discontentment did from London had not the necessity of his woman and other impediments of pouerty letted him not knowinge well whither to goe as being expulsed from Argentina at his comming to England as before we haue shewed in the story of his life 29. Wherfore resoluinge himselfe at length to passe ouer this mortification and to giue our English Protestants some satisfaction though not in the points which they desired he thought it good after Ridleyes departure to defend certayne other paradoxes which Fox recordeth in these words Ouer and besides these disputations aboue mentioned other disputations vvere holden in Cambridge shortly after by Martyn Bucer vpon these conclusions followinge First that the canonicall bookes of scripture alone do sufficiently teach the regenerate all things necessary belonginge to saluation Secondly there is no Church on earth that erreth not as well in faith as in manners Thirdly we are so iustified freely of God that before our iustification yt is sinne and prouoketh Gods wrath against vs whatsoeuer good worke we seeme to do Then being iustifyed we do good works 30. These were Bucers conclusions which well I may call paradoxes for that euen in the common sense iudgement of euery meane capacity the falsity and absurdity therof is apparant For as touchinge the first though we graunt that the diuine books of scripture yf they were fewer then they are respectinge Gods holy prouidence are sufficient to teach both regenerate and not regenerate that beleeue the verity therof the true way of saluation and that the said diuine prouidence hath doth and will so prouide that albeit some parts of these we now haue should be lost as diuers others before haue byn yet should the remnant still be sufficient to that purpose with such other supplyes of Gods assistance as he would send yet to say as this man doth that the canonicall bookes of scripture alone do sufficiently teach all things belonginge to saluation yf by alone he will exclude all other helpes of tradition antiquity testimony of the Church interpretation of the Fathers direction of generall Councells and other like aydes yt is a most absurd paradox for neyther can we know which bookes are to be held canonicall nor what they teach truly sincerely nor what may be deduced out of them yf we remoue the former helpes And the case is as yf one of the Kings of our countrey goinge abroad as some did to Hierusalem or other forrayne warres and intending to be longe absent should leaue with his Councellors for their better gouernement certayne lawes wrytten with his owne hand other directions by word of mouth how to proceed interprett and vse them commaunding all men to obay them and that some troublesome people after many yeares continuance in their gouernement should appeale from them to the Kings wrytten lawes only prayinge the sufficiency therof for better colou●inge their pretence and suinge that yt were ● blott vnto the said lawes and to the Kings wisdome that made them to acknowledge any insufficiency at all in them for perfect direction of the common welth which lawes ●et themselues would expound as pleased them best for their owne purposes ●1 In this case who seeth not whervnto this practise tendeth and for what causes so great prayses are giuen to the sufficiency of these lawes vsed to make the praisers iudges of all and to exempt them from all controlment of others And the very same is seene in the other case of the scriptures which being written by the spiritt and fingar of God himselfe and deliuered vnto vs by the Church whose commission also and authority in the same scriptures is sett downe byndinge vs vnder dlamnation to heare her from age to age as the pillar and firmament of truth there stepp vp togeather diuers sorts of sectarves in all ages of this of ours Lutherans

of Nouember ended vpon the 14. of December 1547. there was an act made with this title An act against such persons as shall vnreuerently speake against the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ c. Wherin magnificent words are spoken of this Sacrament and all those greatly reprehended that in their sermons preachings readings ta●ks rymes songes playes or gestures did name and call yt ●y such vile and vnseemely words saith the Statute is Christian eares did abhorre to heare yt rehearsed and this was the the first spiritt of that Caluinian humor in England misliked by Cranmer and the rest at that tyme but soone after allowed well by Iohn Fox in such of his Martyrs as call yt wormes-meate idoll and the like 4. And finally this party so much preuayled with them that gouerned as not longe after that is to say in the second parlament be gone the 4. of Nouember 1548. and ended the 14. of March 1549. they gott their new communion booke to be admitted wherin their new doctrine also against the reall presence was conteyned and then Peter Martyr who as in his story we haue shewed was sent to Oxford before with indifferēcy to teach what should be ordeyned him from higher powers in that parlament hauing expected all the lent long whilst the parlament endured what would be decreed about this point and finding himselfe in straytes for that he was come to the place of S. Paul to the Corinthians where he must needs declare himselfe receauinge now aduertisment of the new decree did not only accomodate himselfe to teach and preach the same doctrine presently which yet the other friar his companion Martyn Bucer would not doe in Cambridge but also was content vpon request order from the Councell to defend the same in publike disputations for better authorizinge yt through the whole body of the realme This then was the occasion of this first publike disputation to giue some countenance and creditt to the new receaued opinion and paradox of Zuinglius Occolampadius and Carolstadius three schollers of Luther himselfe against the reall presence which as often yow haue heard before Luther did condemne for damnable heresie and them for heretiks that mayntayned yt 5. The questions chosen by Peter Martyr were three First about Transubstantiation whether after the words of consecration the bread and wyne be turned into the body and bloud of Christ. The second about the reall presence whether the body and bloud of Christ be carnally and corporally for so are his words in the bread and wyne or otherwise vnder the kinds of bread and wyne The third was whether the body and bloud of Christ be vnited to bread Sacramentally But of this last question Fox relateth nothing that yt was eyther handled or touched in this disputation About the former two this manifest fraud was vsed that wheras the first about Transubstantiation dependeth of the second of the reall presence it should haue byn handled in the second place and not in the first as heere yt is for cleerer conceauing whereof the Reader must note that the mayne controuersie betweene the Sacramentaryes vs is about the reall presence to witt whether the true body of Christ be really and substantially in the Sacrament after the words of consecration which we do hould affirmatiuely and so doth Luther also then supposing that it is so there followeth a second question de modo essendi of the manner of Christs being there to witt whether yt be there togeather with bread or without bread or whether the bread be anihilated by the ptesence of Christs body or whether yt be turned into the very substance of Christs body as we haue shewed out of Scotus and Durand before in the discussion of Plessis Mornay his Triall and euery one of these opinions about the manner of Christs being there do presuppose the reall presence denyed by the Sacramen taryes So as to dispute first about this particular manner of Christ his being there by Transubstantiation before yt be discussed whether he be really there or noe ys to sett the cart before the horse and the foote before the head 6. And yet for that they do persuade themselues that they haue some more shifts or shewes of probability against Transubstantiation then against the reall presence or can delude better our arguments in the simple peoples eyes they alwayes runne to this leaue the other And it is as if the question being first whether gold were in a purse then whether yt were there alone or els togeather with ledd tynne or some such baser mettall some wrangeler would first dispute the second question before the first or as if two demaūds being propounded first whether in such a vessell where watter was knowne to be before there be wine put in and secondly whether this wine haue turned that water into it selfe or noe or that water wine do remaine togeather and that one would pretermit the first questiō to witt whether wine be really truly there or no and cauil only about the second vvhether the vvater be turned into wine or remaine togeather with the wine In which cases yow see first that this manner of dealinge were preposterous and impertinent wrangling but especially yf the wrangler did deny expressely that there was any gold at all in the purse or wine in the vessell for then yt were too too much folly for him to dispute the secondary questions whether the said gold were there alone or with other mettalles or whether the wine had cōuerted the water into it selfe or no for yf neither gold nor wine be really there presēt then is there no place for the secōd dispute at all And so fareth it in our cōtrouersy of the reall presence of Christs body For if the said body be not really substātially in the Sacramēt at all as the Zuinglians Caluinists do hould then is it impertinēt for them to dispute the second question whether it be there without bread or with bread or whether bread be turned into it or no by Trāsubstātiation for so much as they suppose it not to be there at all only Luther Lutherans may haue cōtrouersy with Catholiks about the māner how it is there seing they beleeue it to be there in deed but Zuingliās Caluinists cānot but only about the first question whether it be there or noe which question notwithstanding for so much as they fly and runne alwayes to the second as we haue shewed notorious it is that they runne frō the purpose shew thēselues not only wrāglers but also deceauers seeking to dazell the eyes of the simple in this behalfe as in this first disputation at Oxford Peter Martyr begon with Transubstantiation and was much longer therein then in the controuersie of the reall presence 7. And in the second disputation of B. Ridley in Cambridge two only questions being proposed the

that so yt was told them And this they thought sufficient for their assurance 56. But now on the contrary side yf a man would oppose to these ten publike disputations before recyted ten learned Councells of the Catholike Church that disputed examined and condemned this heresie of theirs against the reall presence vvithin the space of these last 600. yeares since Berengarius first began yt as namely those foure named by Lanckfranke to witt that of Rome vnder Leo the 9. and another of Versells vnder the same Pope the third at Towars in France vnder Pope Victor successor to Leo the fourth at Rome againe vnder Pope Nicolas the second In all which Berengarius himselfe was present and in the last not only abiured but burnt his owne booke And after this six other Councells to the same effect the first at Rome vnder Gregory the 7. where Berengarius againe abiured as VValdensis testifieth The second of Lateran in Rome also vnder Innocentius the third the generall Councell of Vienna the fourth at Rome againe vnder Pope Iohn the 22. the fifth at Constance and the sixt at Trent All these Councells I say yf a man consider with indifferency of what variety of learned men they consisted of what singular piety and sanctity of life of how many nations of what dignity in Gods Church how great diligence they vsed to discusse this matter what prayer what conferringe of scriptures and other meanes they vsed and with how great consent of both Greeke and Latyn Church conforme to all antiquity they determined and resolued against the opinion of Protestants in our dayes he will easily discouer how much more reason and probability of security there is of aduenturinge his soule of the one side then of the other which yet he will better do by contemplation of the vanity of new Protestants arguments and obiections against so ancient founded and continued a truth Which obiections we shall examine in the Chapters followinge And so much for this THE STATE OF THE CHIEFE QVESTIONS handled in the forsaid disputations Concerninge the reall presence Transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Masse vvith the chiefe groundes that be on eyther side CHAP. II. THE questions that were most treated and vrged on both sides at the two changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary were principally three all concerninge the Sacrament of the Altar as before hath byn shewed The first about the reall presence of Christ in the said Sacrament the second concerninge the manner of his being there by Transubstantiation and the third about the same as it is a Sacrifice Which three points of Catholike doctrine being left by K. Henry the 8. standinge in vigour as he had found them deliuered and preserued by all his ancestours Kings of England from the beginninge of our conuersion vnto Christian Religion they were all changed within two yeares after the said Kings death by authority of his sonne being then somewhat lesse then a dozen yeares ould and by force of a certayne act of parlament confirmed by his name intituled An act for the vniformity of seruice and administration of Sacraments c. Which act though in shew yt conteyned nothinge els but the admission and approbation of a certayne new booke of Common-prayer and administration of Sacraments for so are the words of the Statute gathered togeather by Cranmer Ridley and some others of the same humor yet for that in this new communion booke togeather with many other articles of auncient beleefe these three also of the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice were altogeather altered and a new manner of faith therin taught yt was giuen forth that all was established and setled by Parlament and for that this collection of new articles of beleefe passed as you haue heard in a bundell or fardell shuffled vp togeather in hast vnder the name of a reformed booke of Common-prayer without any great examination or dispute about the particulars but in generall only takinge voyces in the parlament house as well of lay-men as other learned and vnlearned whether the booke should passe or noe wherin the L. Seymour Protector and his crew hauing the Kings authority in their hands and gettinge Cranmer and Ridley on their sides for loue of weomen and other preferment easily preuayled as by the statute yt selfe may appeare yt was thought expedient as before hath byn noted that presently after the statute published two meanes should be vsed for authorizinge and better creditinge the same The one by persuasion of diuers meetings conferences and disputations of the learneder sort which before yow haue heard related and the other by imprisonment depriuing such Bishops and other cheefe Ecclesiasticall persons as should shew themselues most forward or able to resist this course which they began with VVinchester Durham and London And thus passed they on for those 4. or 5. yeares that remained of K. Edwards raigne after this change wherein notwithstandinge almighty God shewed wonderfully his hand of iudgement and punishment soone after vpon the principall authors of this innouation both spirituall temporall as of the later both the Seamours Northumberland Suffolke and diuers of their followers of the former Cranmer Ridley Hooper Latymer the like as to the world is euident 2. For vpon this followed the raigne of Q. Mary for other 4. or 5. yeares who seeing so pittifull a breach made in the realme by this vnlucky alteration she as a zealous Catholike Princesse endeauored to restore the old faith and Religion againe to the former vnity of the vniuersall Church and close vp the wound that had byn made vsinge to this effect the selfe same meanes of instruction and correction by arguments and punishments but in different manner and with farre vnlike iustice of proceeding For that the arguments were the very same which euer had byn vsed by ancient Fathers against old heretiks in the like controuersies and the punishments were no other then such as auncient Ecclesiasticall Cannons did prescribe and were vsed only towards them that eyther had byn cheefe authors of the innouations or stood so obstinately in defence therof as by no meanes they could be recalled 3. Now then yt is to be considered which of these two sorts of people had more ground or reason either those that withstood the first change in K. Edwards dayes which was from the old accustomd Religion to a new or those that resisted the second change or exchange vnder Q. Mary which was nothinge els indeed but a returne from the new to the ould againe And heerby will appeare the state of the controuersie vvhich now vve are to handle For as for the first sort to witt Catholiks the historicall state of their controuersie is manifest concerninge these three questions about the Sacrament for that no man can deny but that the doctrine of the first and third which is the reall presence and Sacrifice had byn receaued and held for

sectaryes of our tyme do follow him in that assertion then can they haue no ground or certainty this way but each man and woman must seeke other grounds and proofes and stand vpon their owne iudgements for triall of the same which how well the most part of people can do being eyther yonge simple vnlearned or otherwayes so busyed in other matters as they cannot attend thervnto euery man of meane discretion will consider and consequently they must needs be said both to liue and dye vvithout any ground of their faith at all but proper opinion and so perish euerlastingely 9. The famous Doctor S. Augustine handleth this matter in a speciall booke to his frend Honoratus deceaued by the Manichies as himselfe also sometymes had byn and he intituleth his booke De vtilitate credendi of the profitt that commeth to a man by beleeuing the Church and points of faith therin taught without demaundinge reason or proofe therof which the Manichies derided and said that they required nothinge to be beleeued of their followers but that which first should be proued to them by good proofe and reason and not depend only of mens creditt but the holy Father scorneth this hereticall bragg and oftentation of theirs and commendeth highly the contrary custome of simple beleeuinge vpon the creditt of the Catholike Church for that otherwise infinite people should haue no faith at all and exhorteth his frend Honoratus to take the same course first to beleeue and after to seeke the reason His discourse is this Fac nos nunc primum quaerere cuinam Religioni animas nostras c. Suppose that we now first of all did seeke vnto what Religion we should commit our soules to be purged and rectified without all doubt we must begin with the Catholike Church for that she is the most eminent now in the world there being more Christians in her at this day then in any other Church of Iewes and Gentills put togeather And albeit amongst these Christians there may be sects and heresies and all of them would seeme to be Catholiks and do call others besides themselues heretiks yet all graunt that yf we consider the whole body of the world there is one Church amongst the rest more eminent then all other more plentifull in number as they which know her do affirme more sincere also in truth but as concerninge truth we shall dispute more afterward now yt is sufficient for them that desire to learne that there is a Catholike Church which is one in yt selfe whervnto diuers heretiks do feigne and diuise diuers names wheras they and their sects are called by peculiar names which themselues cannot deny wherby all men that are indifferent not letted by passion may vnderstand vnto what Church the name Catholike which all parts desire pretend is to be giuen 10. Thus S. Augustine teachinge his frend how he might both know and beleeue the Catholike Church and all that shee taught simply and without asking reason or proofe And as for knowing and discerning her from all other Churches that may pretend to be Catholike we heare his marks that she is more eminent vniuersall greater in number and in possession of the name Catholike The second that she may be beleeued securely and cannot deceaue nor be deceaued in matters of faith he proueth elswhere concluding finally in this place Si iam satis tibi iactatus videris c. Yf thou dost seeme to thy selfe now to haue byn sufficiently tossed vp and downe amonge sectaryes and wouldst putt an end to these labours and tormoyles follow the way of Cath. discipline which hath flowen downe vnto vs from Christ by his Apostles and is to flow from vs to our posterity 11. This then is the iudgement and direction of S. Augustine that a man should for his first ground in matters of faith looke vnto the beleefe of the greatest most eminent Church of Christendome that hath endured longest embraceth most people hath come downe from our fore-fathers with the name of Catholike not only among her owne professors but euen among her enemyes Iewes infidells and heretiks and so is termed held by them in their common speach as the said Father in diuers others places declareth at large Which rule of direction yf we will follow about these three articles of faith now proposed the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice of the masse yt is easily seene what ground we haue for their beleefe in this kind of proofe so highly esteemed by S. Augustine which is the authority of the vniuersall Cath. Church For that when Luther and his followers began to oppose themselues in our dayes no man can deny but that our beleefe in these articles was generally receaued ouer all Christendome as well Asia and Africa where so euer Christians be as Europe and so vpward tyme out of mynd neither can any beginning be assigned to these doctrines in the Cath. Church but only a certayne definition and determination of some Councells about the name of Transubstantiation as after shal be declared 12. Now then hauinge found out this first ground which S. Augustine and other Fathers do make so great accoumpt of which is the authority and beleefe of that Church that generally is called Catholike Yf we passe further and see what grounds this Church had or hath to admytt the same which yet is not needfull or possible to all sortes of men for that only can be done by the learneder sort we shall find that she hath such grounds as may conuince any man that is not obstinate and indurate to the contrary And first to begin with the article of the reall presence what ground proofe or Theologicall demonstration can there bee which the Cath. Church hath not for her beleefe in that high mistery which as it was to be one of the cheefest most sacred and admirable of Christian Religion so was yt meet that yt should be confirmed by all the principall wayes that any article of faith could or can be confirmed that is to say both by scriptures of the ould and new Testament and the true exposition therof by auncient Fathers that liued before this controuersie began with Sacramentarye● by authority and tradition of the Apostles and their successors by testimony of auncient Fathers from age to age by consent and agreement practise and vse of the vniuersall Church by the concourse and approbation of almighty God with euident and infinite miracles by confession of the aduersaryes and other such generall heads of arguments which Catholike diuines do produce for this truth for iustifyinge the Churches faith therin 13. And out of the scriptures their demonstration is not single or of one sort only but in diuers manners as to the height and dignity of so diuine and venerable a mystery was conuenient For that out of the ould Testament they shew how yt was prefigured and prophesied and in the new both promised