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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A54912	Occasionall discourses 1. Of worship and prayer to angells and saints. 2. Of purgatorie. 3. Of the Popes supremacie. 4. Of the succession of the Church. Had with Doctor Cosens, by word of mouth, or by writing from him. By Thomas Carre confessour of the English nunnerie at Paris. As also, An answer to a libell written by the said Doctor Cosens against the great Generall councell of Lateran under Innocentius the third, in the yeere of our Lord 1215. By Thomas Vane Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge.	Carre, Thomas, 1599-1674.; Vane, Thomas, fl. 1652. Answer to a libell written by D. Cosens against the great Generall councell of Laterane under Pope Innocent the Third. aut	1646 (1646)	Wing P2272; ESTC R220529	96,496	286

for them either in the Sacrifices of the Altar or of praier or almes-deedes Though yet they profit not euerie one they are made for but those alone who obtaine in their life time that they may profit them De Haeresibus haer 53. The Aerians tooke their names for à certaine Aerius who being Priest was said to be troubled he could not be made Bishop and falling into the Arrians heresie added some of his owne tenets affirming that it was not lawfull to pray or offer Sacrifice for the Dead De cura pro mortuis c. 1. In the bookes of the Machabees we reade that a sacrifice was offered for the dead Howbeit though it were not at all read in the ancient Scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church which is euident in point of this custome is uo small matter where the commendation of the dead hath its proper place in the prayers of the priest which are powred out to God at his Altar Here you will marke two things The first is that saint Augustine esteemed the Machabees to be Scripture since he argues for Purgatorie from it and indeed he confirmes the same both in his seconde booke of Christian Doctrine the eight Chapter and also in his 18. booke of the Cittie of God 36. Chap. in these words The bookes to witt two of the Machabees are held to be Canonicall not by the Iewes but by the Church The seconde that though there were no scripture for it yet ought the authoritie of the vniuersall Church to preuayle at it doth in many other things of greater cō sesequence Witnesse the said Saint in diuers passages which both the Catholike and Protestant doe admitt of For first Epist fundamen moued by the authoritie of the Church we beleeue the Gospell it selfe which without it we should not beleeue I would not saith he beleeue the Gospell vnlesse the authoritie of the Catholike Church did moue me to it Secondly we beleeue many things which are not in the Scripture as that the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father It is not found written in holy writt saith he and yet that it is said is defended in the assertion of faith That the Father is vnbegotten We read not in those bookes the scriptures that the Father is vnbegotten Epist 174. and yet we make good that we ought to say so in the same place That the Holy Ghost is to be adored Giue me say you he meanes Maximinus an Arrian some testimonies where the Holy Ghost is adored as though forsooth replyes saint Augustine out of these things which we reade we vnderstoode not also some things which we reade not That it was written when the Apostle saint Paul was baptised no mention being made of the rest of the Apostles It is written when the Apostle saint Paul was baptised and it is not written when the rest of the Apostles were baptised and yet we must vnderstand that they also were baptised Finally that a child which cannot yet speake is said to beleeue and may be baptised Be it farre from me to affirme that children beleeue not c. he beleeues in another who offended in another It is answered dicitur he beleeues and it is of force and he is numbred among the faithfull baptised See what a necessitie is imposed vpon all Christians to haue some other infallible ground besides Scripture to stand vpon both to make good Scripture it selfe to witt that it is the true word of God that there are so many bookes of it and no more that we haue the true sense of it c. and many other maine grounds of Christianitie which you see we dare not denye while yet we can produce no formall scripture for them Now what ground that is let the same Saint Augustine deliuer Saint Cyprian faith he doth admonish vs that we should run backe to the fountaine that is to the Apostolicall Tradition and so bring downe the chanells to our tymes It is the best way l 5. cap 26. contra Donatistas and to be done without doubt And againe it is manifest that in a thing doubtfull the authoritie of the Catholike Church confirmed by the order of Bishops succeeding one another and the consent of people Ex libro cōtra Manichaos Dist 11.6 Palam from the verie foundation of the seas of the Apostles till this present tyme is of force to faith valet ad fidem And to know which is an Apostolicall Tradition which not De Bap. con Don. l. 4. c. 24. and l. 2. c 7. and Epist 118. c. 1. the same saint Augustine leaues vs another Rule thrice ouer for fayling What the VNIVERSALL CHVRCH holds and is not yet established in Councells but is alwayes obserued is most rightly beleeued to haue bene deliuered by no other then by Apostolicall authoritie Whence he concludes that it is a most insolent madnesse to dispute whether that ought to be done which the whole Church frequents all ouer the world But the whole Church all ouer the world in the yeare 1517. frequented as all our aduersaries confesse and condemne in vs an vnblouddy sacrifice prayer almes c. for the dead that they might be freed from their sinnes c. therfore it was following saint Augustins phrase and is a most insolent madnesse to deny it In conclusion either hath the proposition and practice of the VNIVERSALL CHVRCH auhoritie to conuince the beleife of a thing not otherwise written yea or no If not It were but meete that the simpler sorte should be instructed clearely and fairely vpon what infallible warranty they beleeue these ensuing points which they meete not with in their Bible 1. That Christians haue indeed the whole reuealed word of God 2. That it is contayned in so many bookes neither more nor fewer 3. That the Epistle to the Hebrewes is a part of it how euer it was some tymes doubted of 4. That there is a certaine number of Sacraments c. as aboue out of saint Augustine BVt if you graunt me that the vniversall Church hath such an infallible authoritie and that vpon it you depend for the certaintie of the precedent articles I may say with S. Augustine you obserue by this of what importance the authoritie of the Cathol Church is but you must also answer me why Catholikes may not with equall confidence depend vpon the same authoritie in point of assurance of purgatorie I am not able to discouer a disparitie or apprehend how being held credible in the deliuerie of those she should not also be credible in this since both are equally proposed both relye vpon the same veracitie or credit Be pleased to ponder this part well and afford the world a cleare and satisfactorie answer The grounds of Christianitie seeme to me to be shaken if the Churches veracitie herein beviolated and great pittie it were that the animositie to make good our priuate opinions should betray Gods knowen truthes An erring Disputant saith saint Augustine is

dreadfull sacrifice which is put vpon the altar is offered Which I will demonstrate vnto you by an example for I know many doe say what doth it profit a soule departing out of this world in sinne that mention is made of him in this sacrifice for if any king should send such into banishment as offend him and after their kindred making a crowne should present it to the same king for those banished men who suffer punishment whether would he not bestow vpon them some part of the remission of their sinnes in the same manner vsing prayers for the dead though otherwise sinners we plaite not indeed a crowne but we offer God sacrificed for our sinnes that we might make him who is most mylde propitious both to our selues and them OBSERVATION Marke here an vnbloudie worship and a propitiatorie hoste ouer which memorie was made of such as departed this life before vs c. intreating that by their prayer ours might be heard In fine prayer for all in common out of a beliefe that it is a great helpe to their soules A dreadfull sacrifice put vpon the Altar and offered for our sinnes What Church but the Rom. Catholike doth still obserue this ancient custome Gregorie Nazianzene In his oration in cōmendations of his deceased brother Caesarius Anno 380. And such things they are which we offer which if small and vnanswerable to deserts yet while we doe according to our possibilitie they are acceptable to God And some to witt things or duties we haue alreadie payed and other we will pay offering anniuersarie honors and comemorations c. OBSERVATION Anniuersaries and commemorations for the dead which we in communion with the Church of Rome still obserue and none but we At least the booke of common Prayer expresseth not such practice Gregorie Nyssene In his oration That we are not to lament their death who dyed in faith Lib. de anima Resur That either being purged in this life by prayers and the studie of wisdome or expiated after death by the furnace of a purging fire c. Againe It is altogether necessarie that while that which is faultie is consumed in purging fire the soule also which is vnited with the same faultines should remayne in the fire till that bastard materiall forged and corrupt mixture be entirely abolished being consumed by fire c. OBSERVATION Expiation after death by purging fire The soule relayned in fire till what is vicious and corrupt in it be purged by fire S Chrysostome Hom 12. in Matt. Why doest thou after the death of thy friends call the poore together why doest thou beseech the priests to pray for him I am not ignorant that your replie will be to the end the deceased may attayne to repose and that he may finde his Iudge more propitious or fauourable c. Againe Hom 21. vpon the Acts. Then shall his wife with confidence pray to or petition him God putting downe the price of our Redemption for him By how much he was more subiect to sinne by so much more stood be in need of almes deeds Call the widowes and tell his name Order euery one to make supplications and prayer for him This will appease God though it be not performed by himselfe but another for his sake be the Authour of the Almes And this is a doctrine of the dinine Mercy God hath giuen vs many wayes of saluation c. Oblations prayers and almes are not made in vaine for the dead The holy Ghost disposed all these things willing that we should helpe one another Againe Oration ● 1. vpon the first to the Corinth supplications almes oblations which he mentioned immediatly before were not rashly inuented nor doe we in vaine make memorie in the diuine mysteries of the deceased and approaching we beseech the proposed lambe who tooke away the sinne of the world in their behalfe but that they might haue some consolation thereby Neither doth he who is present at the Altar while the venerable mysteries are performed crye in vaine For all those who haue reposed in our Lord and those also who celebrate their memories c. for what we doe are not stage-playes God defend but these things are done by the ordinance of the Holy Ghost Againe In his Epist to the Philipp the 3. serm moral These things were not establisbed in vaine by the Apostolicall lawes or Constitutions that a memorie should be made of those who haue departed this life in the venerable and dreadfull mysteries OBSERVATION The priest makes prayer to God for propitiation to the sinnes of the dead For their repose The price of our Redemptiō is put downe for them Vse of the name of the deceased which the Catholike Church obserues yet in the Collect of the Masse of the dead as Peter Paul c. Prayer and supplications though performed by others appease Gods wrath is a doctrine of the diuine mercy disposed by the holy Gh. An Apostolicall constitution that memorie should be made in the diuine mysteries or Masse of the soules departed Theodoret. In the 5. booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie ● 36. The Emperour Theodosius hauing placed his eyes and aspect vpon the biere wherein were the reliques of that holy man S. Chrysostome he powred out prayers for his parents and intreated that they might be pardoned the iniuries which they had done through ignorance Now his parents were deceased long before c. Againe He offered prayers to God for the deceased beseeching him to remitt In the Historie of the holy Fathers of Iames Nisibit● what he had offended in his life tyme and that he would daigne to receiue him into the Quire of Angels OBSERVATION Prayers at or ouer the Reliques of Saints a thing neuer heard of in our English Protestant Church for the soules departed that the iniuries which they had done might be pardoned not that the number of the elect be shortly actomplished c. which onely was the custome of the English Protestants in their Forme of Buriall Basilius Seleucius In his serm of Lazarus his being raysed to life If he who dyed were a sinner and had much offended God we must not onely weepe but giue almes also offer the Sacrifice of the Altar and performe such other things as may afford some consolation to the soule departed OBSERVATION Almes giuen and the Sacrifice of the Altar offered for the soules departed This practice is not found in the Order for the buriall of the dead in the booke of Cōmon prayer but is peculiar to the Catholike Rom. Church Procopius Gazaeus vpon the sixt chapter of Isaye makes mention of a purging fire Gregorius Presbyter In Theodoro Archiman drita Where some said to him that his mother was dead thou art deceiued quoth he she is not dead but liues He powred out prayers to our Lord for her fasting for the space of a weeke that our Lord would pardon her Leontius In the life of Iohn

Againe vpon the 37. Psalme They would be secure c. not onlie from that eternall fire which shall torment the wicked for euer but also from that too wich shall purge emendabit those who shall be safe by fire And a little aster That fire shall be more grieuous then any thing a man can suffer in this life Now we haue found in the Fathers formall tearmes not in our owne forced consequences which were not in question Prayer made at the Altar Sacrisice for the Dead yea and Fire too wherein their soules are tormented and yet some will not be satisfied but will haue that fire to be vnderstood of the Fire of Conflagration at the day of Doome Let vs therefore yet heare saint Augustine wipe awaie this scruple De Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 23. Paines suffered before the day of Iudgement And it is manifest that such are purged by temporall paines which their spirits suffer before the day of iudgement Againe in the same booke chap. 13. Some suffer temporall paines in this life onlie others after death some both now and then yet before that most seuere and last Iudgement And the same againe the 21 booke chapter the first So that now out of S. Augustine we haue found Prayer Memorie at the Altar Sacrifice Fire which is temporall and that too punishing the spirit or ghost of the dead euen before the day of Generall Conslagration at the day of Doome To thinke to answer all that hath benesaid by opposing some few obscure places cull'd out of the same Father and so were it possible to force him to contradict himselfe were in my iudgment but verie bad payment For first this is not to produce euidences but doubts not to cleare but to obscure difficulties and consequently ought to haue no force at all to thrust a man out of his possession Possideo quia possideo still dasheth such weake opposition vpon the head Secondly it is but a poore shift to make a Father seeme to stand up against himselfe to the end he may stand with them Thirdly it is to treate a holy Father vnworthily to endeauour to draw his sense from his words In his booke de Doctrina Christiana against his owne rule and the Rule of Reason which is that clearer places should illustrate obscure places not that obscure places should be industriously employed to clowde cleare places That is but to put out the light to see better or rather to hate and flye the light least it might lay them naked and they be discouered by it The worst of arguments was wōt to be to ayme to proue an obscure thing by a thing more obscure and yet it is farre worse to darken a cleare thing by an obscure and yet forsooth thinke to haue so preposterous a proceeding passe for an argument Our proceeding is not such our Catholike custome is to pray for to make Commemoration of to Sacrifice at the Altar for the soules departed that they may be releeued or freed from their paines which are caused by fire before the day of iudgement And we bring in our iudge saint Augustine to whom we haue both appealed pronouncing sentence for vs in tearmes in the verie same wordes the Church doth beleeue and practise it We doe not make his sentence for him but take from him such as he pleaseth to deliuer it We vse no violence to him to make him speake what we please but we are well pleased with what he speakes we goe not about to surprise him and wrest a word from him and then force it to our purpose which was spoken only by the bye while he was treating vpon another subiect But wee take his iudgement from places where on sett purpose he is handling that subiect which is in question betwixt vs. In fine wee take it not from one or a fewe which is another Rule of reason to vnderstand a fewe places by many places but from abundance of places all cleare and consonant and to the life expressing the present practice of the Catholike Church Heare him againe and againe in these ensuing passages which I will here promiscuously putt downe as they shall occurre omitting yet a manie more S. Aug. de Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 16. He speakes of Children soone after their infancie and saies If he haue receiued the Sacraments of our Mediatour though he end his life euen in these yeares that is being translated out of the power of darknes into the kingdome of Christ he is not only not prepared for paines eternall but shall not euen suffer anie purging torments after this life De Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 24. The prayer of the Church or of certaine pious people are heard for those who being regenerated in Christ neither ledd se verie ill a life in this mortalitie as they should be iudged vnworthie of such mercie nor yet so verie well as that they should be found not to neede such mercie De verb. Apost Ser. 32. It is not to be doubted but the Dead are helped by the prayers of the holy Church and the sauing Sacrifice and almes which are employed for their soules that our Lord may deale more mercifully with them then their sinnes deserued for the Vniuersall Church obserues this deliuered by their forefathers that prayers should be made for those who died in the communion of the bodie and bloud of Christ when at the Sacrifice they are remembred in their place and memorie is made that it is offered euen for them too And againe in the same place But let them employ these things to witt Oblations Prayers and guifts or Almes-deeds which helpe the soules departed more obseruantly instanly and abundantly for them to witt the dead Enchir. c. 110. It ought not to be denied that the soules of the dead are releeued by the pietie of their suruiuing friends when the Sacrifice of our Mediatour is offered for them or almes are giuen in the Church And againe in the same place When therefore the sacrifices either of the altar or what almes-deedes soeuer are offered for all the dead which are baptised they are thankesguings for such as are verie good they are propitations for those who are not verie euill and though to such as are verie euill they be no helpes to the dead yet are they some kind of comforts to the liuing De verbis Apostoli Serm. 17. Therefore doth ecclesiasticall discipline obserue that which the faithfull know when the Martyrs in that place are recited at the Altar of God where we pray not for them the Martyrs but we pray for the rest of the departed whereof commemoration is made For it is an iniurie to pray for a martyr to whose prayers we our-selues ought to be commended De cura pro mortuis Cap. 18. Which being so let vs not esteeme that the dead haue anie aduantage by being buried in this or that part of the Church whereof he had spoken saue only by the solemne supplications which we make

3 Because if one be called an vniuersall Patriarch Epist 36. ibid. the name of Patriarch is taken from the rest 4. Least some priuate thing being giuen to one l. 4. Epist 32. all the priests might be depriued of their due honour Hence it is manifest that sainct Gregorie vnderstood Iohn the Patriarch of Constantinople so to arrogate the name of vniuersall Bishop as that he did derogate thereby frō all other Bishops that he did madly arrogate that power wholly to himselfe that with the contempt of his brethren he alone would be called Bishop that the name of Patriarch would be taken from the rest c. As though forsooth he alone were properly the only true Bishop all the rest being but as his Deputyes or Delegates Which were indeed an intolerable sacrilegious abominable attempt altogether repugnant to the sense practice of the Catholike Apostolike Roman Church which holds the least lowest of Bishops to be as absolute proper perfect in genere Episcopi as the greatest in place dignitie For the rest it is so euident that vniuersall Bishop or vniuersall Patriarch may be taken in some other tolerable though not in this pompous odious sense that none cā with any apparāce of reason deny it For reade we not in the 1. Act. of the Councell of Constantinople vnder Menas an addresse to Pope Agapetus in these words To our most holy most blessed Lord Archbishop of the Ancient Rome Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop Agapetus Yea doth not euen saint Gregorie himselfe often deliuer In his Epist 32 34. of his 4. book 30. of his 7. that the same Title of vniuersall Bishop was giuen to his Predecessours howeuer out of humility or feare of scandall they refused it in the Councell of Chalcedon one of those 4. Generall Councells which he professed to receiue honour as the 4. Gospells affirming in particular of that of Chalcedon that he embraced it with his whole heart obserued it with a most entire approbation and therfore could not conceiue that any thing was there attributed to the Sea Apostolike which had no good sense at all So farre must he needes be from crying against it in all senses But to loose no more time about a Title or in a question de nomine the worst of questions which I discouer not to be so important to the Catholique cause that it should stand or fall by the Presence or Absence of it Seruus Seruorum Dei being without controuersy the most Christian most vsuall with all our Popes hauing been left them by the same saint Gregorie l. 12. Ep. 32. I thus answer M Cosens his Argument in forme Saint Gregorie cryed out against the proud title of vniuersal Bishop c. In that odious sense whereby he conceiued or feared that Iohn of Constantinople so pretended to be Bishop as that he would not be content to be vnus è multis one amongst many but vnus solus the onely one vt despectis fratribus Episcopus appetas solus vocari excluding all others from that dignitie which out of his words I haue shewed to be his doubt aboue Page 123. I graunt it most willingly as he did it most worthily He cryed out against it in all senses imaginable in particular as it signifies Bishop Head of the vniuersall Church or imports the Supremacy which is the only thing now in question I deny it vndertake to conuince the said Denyall to be rationall good out of the same Saint by many euident titles omitting for breuities sake the multitude of authorities out of others which with ease I could produce THE FIRST TITLE BY WHICH Saint Gregorie makes good the Supremacie is his owne words FIRST l. 11.6.54 by his owne formall words in many places of his workes As in the 11th booke 54. Chapt. where he saith If answer be made that there was neither Metropolitane nor Patriarch one must reply that the cause ought to be heard and iudged by the Sea Apostolike which is the head of all the Churches 2. l. 7. Ep. 63. Whereas he to witt the Primate of Bizacium in Afrique saith he is subiect to the Sea Apostolique if any fault be found in a Bishop I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Marry when faults exact it not all are equall in the way of humility 3. Hom. 21. vpon the Gospell Why God all mighty permitted him Peter whom he had appointed to be ouer all the Church to be affrayd at the word of à maide to deny himselfe 4. 5. Pauit Psalm v. 9. And the temerity of his madnesse he speakes of a certain Heretique goes so farre that he does challenge to himselfe the Roman Church the head of all the Churches 5. l. 6. Ep. 48. When I knew that Maximus was made Bishop against reason custome I dispatched away letters that he should not presume to celebrate the solemnity of Masses Which letters of mine being published in the Citty c. he caused publikely to be torne did publikely insult in contempt of the Sea Apostolike which how I endure you know who am readyer to dye then that the Church of Blessed Peter the Apostle should degenerate in my dayes 6. l. 6. Ep. 48. I earnestly beseech exhort you with the affection of a Father that euery one would suspend himselfe from an vnlawfull communion and that he would vtterly auoid such as the Sea Apostolique admitts not into the fellowship of her Communion least that he thence stand guiltie in the sight of the eternall iudge whence he might haue been saued 7. l. 4. Ep. 34. Though Gregory's sinnes saith he himselfe to Constantina Augusta be so great as to deserue to suffer such things yet the sinnes of Peter the Apostle are none that he should merit to endure them in your reigne Therfore I beseech you again again for God Allmighty's sake that as the precedent Princes your Parents sought for the fauour of saint Peter the Apostle so also you would endeauour to seeke conserue the same not permitting that his honour may in any sort be diminished with you by reason of our Sinnes who serue him vnworthily who may both now be a helper to you in all things hereafter may be able to absolue your sinnes 8. l 7. Ep. 64 Whence haue they the Grecians till this day that the subdeacons goe in Linnen-Coates tunicis but that they receiued it from their mother the Roman Church 9. Ibid. As for that which they say of the Church of Constantinople who doubts but it is subiect to the Sea Apostolique 10. l. 7 Ep 54 Peruerse men c. will not be subiect to the precepts of the Sea Apostolique they reprehend vs as it were in point of faith l. 4. Ep. 32. which they know not Lastly in his Epistle to Mauritius the Emperour being the very place which is worthy to be