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A19505 Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway. Cowper, William, 1568-1619. 1613 (1613) STC 5934; ESTC S112854 58,489 262

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shameles then the other plaine contrarie as I remember to the Apoles doctrine Let not a Woman forsake her husband who beleeues not if hee bee content to dwell with her C. You take it vp very well and you may see how Papistrie breakes the band of fellowship betweene Husband and Wife R. I see it indeed and this resolues me of an other doubt for I haue maruailed often what should mooue so many Ladies to become Catholique Roman but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wiues as are male-content with their Husbands for it loos●th them from that subiection where vnto God hath bound them C. Take the third It disslolues the bands betweene the Father and the Sonne Pater qui filium habet haereticum exhaereditare ten●tur● talem filium A Father that is a Papist and hath ● Sonne that is a Protestant he is bound to disinherit him Again Pr●pter haere sin patris s●lij sunt sui iuris by the Heresie of the Father the Child● is fre●d ●rom obedience R. Fie vpon them that maintain● such grosse positions C. Y●t there is worse following Haeretici f●i● vel consanguineinon dicantur sed ●●x●alegem sit m●nus tua super eos vt ●undas sanguinem ipsorum Heretiques may not bee termed Children nor Kinsmen but according to the olde Law thy hand must bee vpon them to spill their bloud There are all the bands of Nature Affinitie Consanguinitie destroyed by Papistrie and they thinke it lawful for Papists to slaie their own Children or their Kinsmen if they bee Protestants What thinke you is it good dwelling with such Vipers and are our Protestants wise to make alliance by marriages with them R. In good faith I am ashamed in their behalfe and I think it no maruell you call Papistrie a Pest of Common-wealthes C. You shall heare but one and I will trouble you with no more It dissolueth the band of subjection wherin people stand bound to their Princes Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino negare obs●quium Popish Subjects may lawfully denie obedience to a Protestant King Againe Non licet Christianis tolerare regem Haereticum It is not lawfull for Christians to tollerate an Hereticall King they may expell him depose him yea murther him And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolique Doctrine R. Away with it for it may rather bee called a Doctrine of Deuils who is the Father of lies Seditions Diuisions and Murthers C. And yet these are the common lessons which are taught and practised by the Doctors and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome But how fals●ly they call this Doctrine Apostolique Consider what was the Apostles Doctrin concerning the obedience of people vnto their Kings Read there what Saint Peter saith R. I perceiue he bids honour the King and commaunds the people to submit them selues vnto the King as Superiour or vnto Gouernours vnder him C. Very well Tell me now who was King and Supre●me Gouernour when Peter wrote this was it not Nero a vile Monster a bloudie Persecutor yet you see Peter bids not depose him farre lesse bids he kill him Looke againe to the Fathers of the Primitiue Church see Iustine Martyr Deum solum adoramus in alijs vobis inseruimus laeti Imperatores Principes honum esse prof●tentes simul precantes vt cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque men●em obtinere comperiamini We worship God only in all other things we serue you with gladnesse acknowledging you to be the Emperours and Princes of men praying also that with your Imperiall power yee may haue a sound mind Here you see in all thing● except in matter of Gods Worship Seruice professed to the Emperour and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrarie minded to Christianitie but no treason nei●her taught nor practised The like hath Ignatius Caesari sub●iti estote in ijs quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio Bee subiect to Caesar in all thinges wh●rein you may without peril of conscience And Tertullian also Co●imus Imperatorem vt ho●●inem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem VVee reu●rence the Emperour as next and immediate vnder God hauing none but God aboue him Againe Christianis nullius est host is nediùm Imperatoris quem sciens a Deo suo constitui necesse est vt ipsum di●igat reuereatur honoret salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio A Christian is no mans Enemi● farre lesse the Emperours Enemie hee knowes that hee is placed by the Lord his God and therefore it cannot be but he must loue him reuerence him honour him and wish his safetie and the welfare of the Empire Let Papists now bee ashamed to pretend either Apostles or Apostolique men as if they were Patrons of that pernicious Doctrine whereby they teach their people to murther Princes if they be contrarie minded to them in Religion R. Doe it if they will they haue good cause C. Now Sir because to morrow is the Sabbath if you please to goe to the Church I will come and goe with you R. I am v●rie well content and I thanke you for it THE SEVENTH OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND is declared to be conforme to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles and practised in the Primitiue Church C. GOod morrow Sir are you ready to goe R. When you please C. What Church wil yee goe to or whom of the Preachers desire you to heare R. Make you the choice I will accompany you C. Let vs goe then because you are a ftranger here you will pardon me to goe before and shew you the way into the Church and shew you where you should sit R. I thank you for it What is this the people are going to doe C. They bow themselues before the Lord to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy which you will heare openlie read out by the publik● reader Now when it is done what thinke you of the prayer R. Truly I thinke there is no thing in it but that wherunto eueri● good Christian should say Amen and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reuerence sighing and groning accompanie the praier vp to God But what goe they now to doe C. Euerie one is preparing as you see their Psalme-book that all of them with one heart and mouth may sing vnto the Lord. There is the Psalme which the Reader hath proclaimed if you please you may sing with them or if you cānot follow them in your heart R. So I will What doth the Reader now is he making an other praier C. No yonder booke which now hee open is the Bible you will heare him read some portion of holy Scripture Vnd●rstand you what he saies R. Yea for sooth wel enough for hee reades very distinctly C. These are the three exercises which are vsed in all our
How long C. Yea they want their brethren all them that belong to the communion of Saints their desire shall not be satisfied till all their brethren bee where they are for God hath so prouided that th●y without vs should not bee perfected R. In truth that is exceeding comfortable that Adam Abraham the rest of that congregation of the first borne shal not be perfected till we come to them yea til the full number of Gods Saints bee accomplished But is there no other thing they long for C. Yea they long and pray for the comming of Christ Euen so come Lord Iesus at which time they know verie well that all the promises of God shall bee performed to all and euerie one of the Saints of God Thus farre you see how they in Heauen do pray in generall R. But you thinke not that we should praie to them in our particular necessities C. No indeed for beside the former reason we haue no warrant to praie vnto them and so cannot doe it in faith Will you consider can there bee any better Schoolemasters to teach vs how to pray then the persons of the blessed Trinitie and thinke you not we are surest when wee prai● in such a manner as they haue taught R. That cannot bee denied C. Then I pray you marke it there is the voice of God the Father Call vpon me there is the precept of God the Son When you pray you shall say in this manner Our Father which art in Heauen c. there is againe the voice of God the Holy Ghost who when hee teacheth vs to pray teacheth vs Crie abba Father What say you to these is there any word here of praier to Cherubin or Seraphin is there any warrant for turning ouer of all the prayers in the Psalme booke to the Virgin Marie O Ladie that art my righteousnesse Psal. 4. O Ladie reprooue mee not in thy wrath Psal. 6. R Truly I can say no●hing against them for I see according to Gods Word it is the surest and safest way to pray to God by the mediation of Christ. C. But now I will bring you one cleare instance to let you see how Papistrie takes away Christs intercession and sets him idle in the Heauens R. What is that C. They say there is in Heauen a King God the Father a Queene the Virgin Marie and that the King hath giuen to the Queen dimidium regni the halfe of his Kingdome the Ministration of Iustice hee hath kept to himselfe the Ministration of Mercie hee hath giuen ouer to the Virgin Marie such as seeke Iustice goe to the King of Heauen such as seeke Mercie goe to the Queene who also by her authoritie hath power to command her Sonne Christ Iesus R. Good sooth these are too grosse speeches for as you haue said they make Christ idle in Heauen or like a childe vnder Tuition for my owne part I will keepe that reuerent estimation of the blessed Virgin that is due to her but will euer reserue to Christ the glorie of a Sauiour and Mediatour C. Let it bee so only now I will let you see that as Papistrie destroies many Articles of our Christian faith concerning the person and Offices of Christ So it is a P●st of Common-wealths loosing al the bands of human fellowshippe and societie R. That is strange for there are many flourishing Kingdomes with vnitie and peace that professe Papistrie R. Remember you what our Sauiour sayes in the Parable So long as the strong man keepes his house all is in quiet but when a stronger then hee comes in to bind him there begins the battell So long as Sathan possessed the World by the darknesse of Papistrie there was a miserable felicitie in it and a cursed vnitie such as was in Sodom where young and old from the foure corners of the Citie conspired and agreed to one impietie But now since Christ comes in by his glorious Gospell to illuminate his owne with the light thereof that which before seemed peace in Papistrie now appeares to bee a fir● come from Hel seeking to deuoure all such as forsake h●r errours and embrace the truth of God R. I but that is a thing wherwith they charge the Gospel that since it was preached many Sects and Heresies are risen vp in the world which were not in it before C. I pray you consider what a Polici● of Sathan that is to disgrace the Gospell how manie Heresies arose in the Apostles dayes or soone after that was not in the World before Then came vp Simon Magus Cerinthus Ebion Marcion Basilides Menander Valentinus Cerdon Marcion and many more Shall the Gospell be blamed for this or rather may you not see it is the craft of the Deuill to disgrace the Gospell R. Indeede I thinke it no good reason that the Gospell should be the lesse esteemed of There is but one truth but manifold errours and I remember our Sauiour warning vs of thi● in that Parable of the Gospell That where the good Husbanman sowes good wheat in the day incontinent comes the Enemie that euill one and sowes his popple in the night C. Now if you apply that to our present question the doubt is easily solued So long as the World was blinded with idolatrie and the Masse which in effect is but a Masse of Heresies Sathan laie quiet hee was not troubled in his Kingdome and hee raised no trouble in the World but since the light of the Gospell discouered his darkenesse and that hee findes his Kingdome decaying and himselfe falling by the preaching of the Gospell now he bestirres himselfe more busily and doth what he can to disgrace this glorious Evāgell by vile heresies of some that impugne it and profane liues of others who professe it But as you see it is no reason why the Gospell should be blamed for any of these R. It is not indeed But now you remember you beganne to discourse how Papistrie is a Pest of Common-wealthes Kingdoms dissoluing all the bands of humane fellowshippe and societie among men C. Now I will let you see it There is own of their Positions It is llawfull to spoile an Heretique of his goods meliùs tamen est quod auihoritate indicis fiat though it were better to do it by authoritie of the Iudge In their iudgement all Protestants are Heretiques and so they make it lawful for Papists both to steale and reaue from them R. That is strange indeede and yet I haue many times mar●a●led what should haue moued the M●c gregors and other Licentious Men of our Island who knew no Religion to professe Papistrie but now I see the reason of it for it made their robberie good Christianitie C. Here are other Vxor catholica viro haeretico beneuolum reddere non te●e●ur that is to say in plaine t●rmes a Wife that is a Papist is not bound to render due ben●uolence to her Husband being a Protestant R. That assertion is more