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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	holy_a	read_v	scripture_n	8,342	5	5.9261	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A11532	A conference betvvixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth, and publike worship of god established nowe in England. Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saued.; Conference betwixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant.	Savage, Francis, d. 1638.	1600 (1600)	STC 21781; ESTC S106433	62,438	140

that good woman Lydia the purple seller 〈◊〉 16. whose heart was also opened This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened ●hes 1.17 lightned that they might knowe c. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians and of this speaketh Elihu in the booke of Iob ●lip 1.9 ●lost 1.9 There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding Iob 32.8 This did king Dauid knowe and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer often saying Teach me O Lord teach me thy statutes teach me thy waies open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonderfull things in thy lawe Origen saith Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons but as he hath done he will doe and heare the desires of his children that wish to know his will This is the way mother this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it neither will it faile you But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures howsoeuer others abuse and mis-construe them In a worde therefore marke I beseech you that we doe not affirme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture for so there should neede no exposition but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collection and conference in scripture M Sonne I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in regarding the doctours as they doe S. Surely mother I doe confesse the doctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Catholickes Doctoures And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that behalfe First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri Not our Lords but our leaders And therfore S. Augustin saith Other writers or fathers besides the holy scriptures I read in this sort that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so but because they are able to perswade me so either by Canonicall writers or els by some likely reason Likewise againe This kind of writings meaning the holy doctoures must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing but with libertie to iudge each thing For we may not consent to the bishops notwithstanding they be Catholike ●nit Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scriptures This is the right credit of holy fathers they are not the trueth of God it selfe but onely witnesses vnto the trueth no more haue they they thēselues euer desired no lesse ought we euer to giue them Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy Fortunat. ●●t 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater ep 19. c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders and to that ende the Lord hath giuen thē as excellent lights to his church So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs that the former are reiected by the later c. Likewise Panormitan saith vve ought to giue more credit to on lay man then to an whole councell and to the Pope if he bring better authority and more reason This is my first obseruatiō in this matter of the doctours My secōd is this which I humbly pray you to marke that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques so haue fathers and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings so must we the other also for the same reason The Arrian heretiques alleadged Origens bookes for their defence and safegard Socr. l. 4. c. Concil Ch act 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian as also of other holy writers and of the holy father Saint Athanasius Another of his sect cryed this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice p. ●●7 and not to weary you with many Dioscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon 〈◊〉 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregory Cyrill I varie not from them in any point I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly but remaining expressed in their bookes Therefore you see good mother that heretiques haue cried as well fathers fathers as scriptures scriptures and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please whereof I assure you we haue notable examples with many things moe but that I feare to be troublesome vnto you M. Yet sonne seeing our faith was long before yours me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you S. And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many yeares before any of the fathers Surely if your faith were before ours Old faith as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side and indeed both would make for you New faith the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth and not their own writings as you haue seene But good Mother they abuse you and many moe that tell you your faith that is as nowe you meane the Romish faith was before ours for I assure you it is not so but very newe and younge in comparison of ours M. What our faith newe Sonne yours old Alas I see these

safetie before others but the Lord knoweth whose trueth is with vs that there is no cause And whatsoeuer by the power of all popish learning hath beene alleadged as any cause we haue answered soundly out of Gods booke our answeres standing without reply vnto this day Our seruice theeefore is lawfull our praiers are holy our meetings are Christian and no better way to be resolued hereof then part by part to examine them So haue some done and beene reformed wondering howe so great slaunders could be raised where no cause is found The authoritie also of lawefull gouernment commaundeth but lawefull things increaseth the dutie to obey and presseth with no smaller weight then damnation as the Apostle flattely affirmeth if we resist Rom. 1● Conceits may not take place where such euidence of trueth doth gainsay them If I had a conceit or perswasion that all meates would kill me must I certainely die for want of meate and retaine my errour The Galatians prescribed themselues amisse in some things and the Apostle thought it a reason sufficient to reforme them to tell them that such a perswasion was not the perswasion of him that called them meaning of God Gal. 5.8 And the scriptures phrase in the matter of perswasion is to adde through the Lord. Rom. 14.24 2. Thes 3.4 I am persvvaded through the Lord which is worthie noting Deare Mother the Lords annointed ouer you her sacred Maiestie commandeth this dutie and there is no deuill of hell can prooue this charge vnlawefull Therefore by the bonde of a subiect true and faithfull you ought to obey My father with sighes and groanes of a troubled heart desireth it and therefore by the bonde of a wife louing and dutifull you ought to obey And which is the greatest of all the God that made you cōmandeth it to you and all his seruants therfore by the bonde of a childe of God you ought to obey The bondes are great the duty is holy the obedience is euerlasting peace comfort life the danger also is great to striue to offend And therefore happie is that heart that yeeldeth betimes If by reading their bookes this wound hath beene giuen you then reade our answeres and let God heale They haue written no matter of moment these 40. yeares in our english tongue but fully and soundly is it answered to Gods glorie Yea their new testament wherein is their whole strength heaped togither is learnedly answered to the full contentment of any not desperatly giuen ouer to his owne blindnesse In matter of lawe concerning the goodes of this world you will heare contrarie opinions and choose with iudgemēt In matter of phisicke concerning your bodie you will doe the like beat out a trueth Shall onely the soule be neglected and pinned on other mens sleeues ô God forbidde He hath promised that neuer deceiued euē in this matter also Aske and you shall haue seeke and you shall finde knocke and it shall be opened vnto you Thus shall we finde their great wickednesse in denying the scriptures to be read of them that haue soules to be saued as well as themselues their taking away the cuppe from the lay people when Christs institution was Drinke ye all of this their leauing the second commandement out of their catechismes because it forbid deth Images their multitude of bodily exercises when the scripture saith they profit little their killing of princes when the Lord saith Touch not mine annointed and Dauids heart smote him for cutting off but the lappe of Sauls garment and to no worse ende then to make him see his innocency and his guardes negligence their freeing of subiects from their obedience and alliegance when it is written Let euery soule be subiect c. Their direct crossings of the written worde as when it is saide No man commeth to the father but by me they say we haue many mediatours by whome we may come to the father besides Christ when it is said Thou shalt not commit adultery they say if not chastly yet charily and find in one fish ponde of Gregory 6000 childrens skulls by that wicked charynes whē the Lord saith You erre because you knowne not the scriptures they say directly contrarie you will erre if you meddle with the scriptures when the Lord saieth when you haue done all say you are vnprofitable seruants they say we may doe workes of supererogation more then we are bound and so merit for others Also when the Lord forbiddeth a lusting looke their Pope giueth licence not onely to erect a stews wherein not long since were nūbred 40000. harlots that paid a yeerely rent and vpon the 12 day at night were seene goe into the Popes pallace 17. coaches full of curtizans But ô horrible euen ●o practise the sinne against nature and not to be named during the 3. hotte moneths in the yeare Iune Iuly August Al which with many moe may giue any Christian man or woman not finally forsaken of God and left to a reprobate mind a true tast of that Cursed religion and cause them iustly to reason thus Popery maintaineth flat Idolatrie diuers waies therefore not true It alloweth other grosse sinnes forbidden of God therefore not true It nuzleth the hart of man in securitie therefore not true It robbeth the conscience of comfort and hope by maintaining doubting therefore not true It destroieth the ordinance of God lawfull magistracy and loyall obediēce therefore not true It flieth the light and nourisheth darkenesse therefore not true It spreadeth it selfe and groweth by lies false testimonies slaunders dreames reuelations counterfeit holinesse and fained miracles therefore not true Deare Mother open your eies and regard your soule Be as you should be wise without wilfulnesse zealous without superstition discreet to discerne carefull to beware regarding God prince and countrie before any spirituall enchaunters whatsoeuer yea regarding your selfe and my deare father with vs your poore children who rise and fall with your well and ill doing I am no enemie that begge this of you but euen your owne bowells who haue liued in you and neuer desire to liue without you your child your own by God and nature bound vnto you O Mother behold my teares thinke of my heart prostrate before you vpon my face I beg it for his sake who gaue me to you whose loue is life whose trueth is ioy whose power and goodnesse is infinit to honour them that honour him Mine eies behold you for some worde of comfort cast me not away for Iesus sake without it M. Deare child arise let my silence now content thee It shall not be long ere we talke again Your father cōmeth towards vs whome I pray you goe meere and let him not knowe as yet of our speech When he was turned frō her towards his father shee caught the house vpon her and into her closet shee went with hast where all bewashing her selfe with teares shee brake out in this sort O my God and gratious father thou hast raised out of mine owne bodie a teacher for me that I might not scorne him and who by me receiued life concerning his bodie he by thee hath offred me life concerning my soule if I will receiue it I cannot I cannot denie his reasons I feele them cōuince me I haue no excuse against such trueth and such a teacher but I am caught I am caught ô my God if I will not damnably breake out of thy net againe and runne desperatly headlong vpon mine owne destruction VVo is me that I so long haue erred from thy trueth harkning to the vaine inventions of mans braine Thy word I knowe is trueth and why should not I ground my selfe and soule vpon it Thy worde I heare is able to make me wise vnto saluation and so can no writing of man To the lavv and ●o the testimonie saith thy Prophet I nowe remember and if they speake not according to this it is because there is no light in thē VVho hath grounded vpon this rocke and hath miscarried yet my soule knoweth how popery abhorreth this lantarne we may not read it we may not goe to Church to heare it we may not haue it translated for vs but darknes darknes that is stil the mother of devotion though the holy ghost hath said Search the scriptures and be not children in vnderstanding Howe can this then be the true religion the truth the light that forbiddeth al meanes of knowledge They binde and burn I cannot denie the Saints of God bathe themselues in innocēt blood All is hypocrisie and vain glorie I see I see that ruleth amongst them O father strengthen me ô Sauiour pittie me ô holy ghost confirme me and finish this worke begunne in me to the eternall praise of thy name and the profitable mouing of others by my example that are abused and deceiued by these craftie iuglers and deceitfull workers as I was Amen Amen FINIS

boast of disputation or say they haue prospered by it for we neede not to feare them God be blessed nor they to bragge of any winning There neuer wanted yet neither euer shall want both learned and vnlearned on our side whose spirits they shall not be able to resist writing preaching disputing they are the Gospels weapons and waies to build by Popery must take sōe other course as yet in all times they haue done which holde that plough O that for further proofe of this point mē would be content without preiudice to read the Acts monuments of this our natiue countrie and English Church where we liue marking with a minde desirous of trueth what answers haue beene made by simple women maides and girles vnto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion faith to the great astonishment of their aduersaries the high glorie of God seene in their weaknesse so strengthened by him But nothig can bee more grieuous to that Church then to graunt leaue to doe this which surely bewrayeth they are afraide Hence come their lies and slaunders invented against that book which would full soone be discried of vs woulde we reade it If any haue beene in Westminster ball at tharraignment of a misdoer we willingly heare him a whole day to tell vs the manner of it what was obiected what answered what replyed and what concluded yet we will not read with our owne eies hauing it so notably penned for vs the conventings of holy Christian men and women before their iudges for matter of faith and saluation We wil talke of disputation disputations and ô that men might be allowed to speake freely without daunger of lawe what they are able and when the time was for theirs to speake what they would or coulde and wee stoode at the barre in bolts and yron to answere their obiections and profound learning we will not nowe reade what was then done said on both sides Surely I will say of that booke what I wish tried that after the ground of holy scriptures it will yeelde the greatest contentment Men shall see men women shall see women age shall see age and youth youth brought to the triall howe they answered howe they suffered howe flesh startled howe the spirit conquered and in a worde howe God shewed his mercie and power infinite waies If we finde they speake well we may embrace it if otherwise leaue it The Lord hath giuen vs wisdome and reason and of his grace also I trust to be able to discerne if we would reade O why should our enemies hoodwincke vs so that we must neuer see but with their eies If the charge of this book be to much for one an whole parish might ioyne together and vse it by turners as leisure serued M. Sonne I see you are ready for eueuery way and therefore hauing gone thus farre in triall of what you could say and now being come to our iourneys ende I will goe no further with you at this time but reserue the particular pointes of controuersie till wee haue some fitte leisure and opportunity againe S. Good Mother when and howe you please But nowe ere we part I beseech you let me speake something to you with out offence I will not say much M. Speake on you shall doe more Then as yet you haue done if you any way offend me S. 〈◊〉 religious ●●ite or a ver●ous child to 〈◊〉 mother My suite is then most deare mother with a melting heart of an humble childe that you would vouchsafe to thinke of that which hath nowe beene spoken as also of this feare full course which you haue to long liked of in not comming to Church not receiuing the sacrament not hearing Gods word not obeying the lawes of your dread and gratious Soueraigne and of your natiue countrie It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best it hurteth my father daunteth your children blemisheth your house and wrongeth your friendes both neare deare most grieuously But ô father I say againe my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see howe he is eclipsed by it in comparison of others to whome he is no way inferiour either in birth in liuing in wisdome and experience or in any gift in body or minde neither hath his countrie that good from him or he that good from his countrie that might be had if you were reformed For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad that cannot be obeied of his owne at home His children therefore want him his friends want him his seruants want him yea he himselfe wanteth himselfe many times to his griefe Other things also I could name that better may be conceiued in your tender loue towardes him then by me expressed at this time O mother pardon your owne flesh in speaking thus boldly to you and knowe that it is but a part of your selfe that speaketh to your selfe in tender louect dutie When first my father matched with you he hoped of strēgth countenance euery way to be increased to him both by your selfe and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath indued you and by your friendes and house to whome by this marriage he should be vnited not of any abashment and abatement in al these to him and his poore children the pledges of loue betwixt you And thus might it be it you would but alas thus is it not because hitherto you would not A fewe false charmers haue sunke deeper into your heart with their deceits then all your best friendes can with their faithful aduertisements And what is this els in you and others of your perswasion but that which euer hath bin done by the olde serpent the head and guide of these charmers In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the Iewes hating deadly the trueth of the Gospell preached by the Apostles and desirous to vexe them for it deuised this as the best means to stirre vp certaine honest and devout women against them which women should vvork with their friendes to expell such preachers from amongest them Nowe why women but because Satan hath euer had his aduātage against this weake vessell why devout women but becavse a religious minde meaning well yet wāting knowledge is both quicklyer deceiued with shewe of religion and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth doing more hurt in that false deuotion then many others not so well thought of And why honourable women but that might being added to blinde zeale both by power and example Satans cause might goe forwarde These charmers saith the Apostle againe shall still be creeping into houses lead captiue simple women By which often repeated name of women in the scripture all good women are effectually warned to beware Were there cause for you or any others thus to doe it no way could stand with religion to diswade you and in my selfe to you Mother it should be a double sinne because I am yours and aboue all wordly fauours ought to wish your eternall