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A00637	A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1584 (1584)	STC 10770; ESTC S101936	77,534	204

in Fraunce the substaunce of Discipline shall be out of the worde confirmed and the controuersies betweene vs equally and orderly decided We will also be bounde to subscribe as they are His first quotation out of the Adm. doth set down that in a different letter which is not there to be found Which practize is done onely to disgrace vs vnius●ly with the Magistrate The other two sentences though we iudge them somewhat hardly set downe yet they must be charitably interpreted according to the course of their Booke the first of the trueth of Discipline not of doctrine the other of Ministers so called and inabled as God his worde doth allowe The rest is worth no aunswere the matter beeing handled before and Gualter being a party with you against M. Iewell and M. Nowel in that point though againste you in the question of Church election Now in stead of this heape of disagreementes which are at one with them selues let him accorde these following drawne from the wryters who are of his iudgement No man for any crime is to be secluded from any law fall vocation if he repent him and become a new man and there be no generall commaundements contrary herevnto But this doctrine is consonant to the whole course of the Gospell Yet we all hold that Traytours are not to be admitted Byshops or of the Queenes Guarde They maintain this speach of Ambrose on the 4. of the Ephes In the beginning it was permitted to euery one to preach the Gospel baptize and expound the Scriptures but when the Churche was enlarged certain Parishioners were appoynted and goucrnors and other officers ordayned in the Church Yet now Ministers maye not preach without a lisence It is defended by the former Booke that The worde of God is as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached and reading is preaching yet the Booke of Common-prayer preferreth Preaching before Homilies And himselfe sayth that Preaching is the most excellent meanes to ingender fayth This man condemneth and reiecteth Doctours as new yet the former booke Page 425. sayth that by auncient wryters A Catechistes office was necessarie in the Church and distinct from the Pastour The same booke fol. 700. in the marginall note hath Nothing ought to be reade vnder the name of Scripture but the Canonicall Contrary to the booke of Common prayer which appoynteth the Apocripha to be reade vnder the name of holy scripture Iewel saith that for one bishop to haue authority ouer an other is neyther by Christ Peter nor Paule nor by any right of God his word Yet they do by preaching and wryting still maintaine it by the examples of Peter Timothy and Titus In the aunswere to the authority of Peter Martyr it is sayde that in our Church religion is onely reformed to the quicke But the examiner sayth they see weightyer things in the Church wherat they may be greeued as other good men are Now we come to his questions which althogh they he captious and therefore by lawe they are not to bee aunsweared yet to shewe our sincerity in that which we holde we will make him an aunswere To the first we saye Discipline touching the substaunce is fully described out of the worde of God in the booke of discipline the treatise of ecclesiastical gouernment and in the most of the soundest writers of our time The second is answered partly by the former partly by this treatise In steed of this we aske him what be y ● writings which haue cōfuted by the scripture all those foresayd godly learned writings To the third we aunswere it is no sounde diuinity to exclude Christian Princes from their gouerment in Church-matters Concerning Excommunication he hath his answere before To the two other clawses let the Papists answere for they are malitiously imputed vnto vs. And we demaund of him whether it be sound diuinity that when the Prince will eate flesh in Lent or do such like shee must haue a Dispensation from an Archbyshop And that the writes of his Courts euen in causes ciuill and matters of instaunce should be in his owne name and not in the name of her most excellēt Maiesty The fourth is aunswered in the Treatise of the Eldership And we aske of him what pregnant proofe he hath either from scripture or Father that Ecclesiasticall Gouernment shoulde be exercised in a wholle Diocesse by a Chancelor or Commissarye beeing a meere lay-man To the 5. and 6. both wee aunswere That rebaptization is condemned by the Worde of God and that those hee speaketh of be maried folkes And wee require him to prooue by the Worde of God that in case of the necessity which they pretend a Woman may baptize And to prooue by the same that men may be forbidden to mary in Lent or such like times The seuenth is aunswered in that to the 5. and 6. And we demaunde of him how they can prooue it lawfull to admit a Popish priest fallen from the Gospell and still vnapt to teach To the eyght we aunswere there is the like reason of the Supper and of Baptisme And we require him to prooue by the Worde of God that a Deacon may baptize and when he hath proued that let him proue why hee may not minister the Supper also To the ninth we answere that to the Ministers there may be diuersity of rewardes giuen so long as none haue to little nor any too much And we require him to prooue by the Word of God that a Minister of the Gospell may carry the pompe of men of estate To the tenth we aunswere as is set downe in the Treatise that a Minister should be apt to teach We would haue him proue that any other may preache who is not apt to teach To the Eleuenth we answere affirmatiuely and require him to prooue by the Scriptures that an Archbyshop may put Preachers to silence for not subscribing to that which is not required by the lawe To the twelfth we aunswere it is not lawfull for one to be thrust out of his Ministery for shewing modestly in his sermons the inconuenience of vnleauened breade in the Lords Supper that all vsury as wee speake it whither biting or nibbling is vnlawfull And we require of him to prooue by the Worde of God that it is tollerable to suffer Drunkardes whoremongers ignoraunt men of occupation in the Ministry and for not subscribing where Law doth not enforce it or for the not vsing of some ceremonie to turne out godly learned Ministers And make a pitifull seperation of the Pastor and the flocke The Lorde giue vs to be of one minde and wherein we agree let vs proceede by the rule of loue FINIS Eccles 12. Iud. 9. Psalme 2. 2. Chro 16. 9 See admon ad lib. concord de mod agend Mat. 24. 48 Beza praefat before the new Testament Hermonia confess page 53. gal confess art 29. Genes 2.

matter of the Sacrament of the vbiquiti other points may be reiected of y e papists and their reason must be held as good because they haue as learnedly and truly gathered our diuersities betweene our selues inconueniences following vppon our Doctrine as this man hath doone in the matter of Ecclesiasticall Discipline Next vnto this fowle iniury done vnto religion his iniury done vnto so many worthy lerned men which haue so well deserued of the Church of God nay his inuiry done vnto all the reformed Churches in setting them together by the eares in slaundering them to like of vphold and maintain such a gouernment as hath no witnesse of the Scriptures or ancient times thogh they main tayne it by both such as bringeth with it not onely a maze and labarinth vnto all common-weales but which is at flat ennemity with Princes ouerthroweth their gouernment in Ecclesiastical causes and by sudden alteration turneth euery thing vpsie-downe Which reproch though it be so apparaunt as his owne conscience smote him with the gylce of it so as he would fayne auoyd the shame of it by colourable protestation and that before God not to derogate from any tollerable order established in these externall matters yet he cannot chuse but charge them that they make Princes raunge with the rest of their Seniours and Church-gouernours and that they debar princes of that right of gouernment in matters and ouer persons Eeclesiastical which the word of God al the examples of godly kings of Iudae doe aford vnto vs. The falsehoode of which is not onely manyfest by this witnes of haste as good as a thousand agaynst him but also by the testimonye which so manye worthy wryters nay Princes and Magistrates in their practise and confessions haue giuen to the same Now when the Christian Reader hath considered of this iniurye donne vnto GOD and his Church to vnderstande also firste that these are but Rapsodies gathered at leasure boasted of cast in the teth of some long since such as had other-wyse been vttered ere this but that no market would serue so well this Secondly that although He do as Sanballet send vs in wryting worde that we woulde builde vp the wall of Ierusalem and make our selues kinges when these thinges come to passe and that we set vp Prophetes which may preach of vs at Ierusalem there is a King at Iuda euery Pastor will be Pope yea and aboue the Prince in his Presbytery Yet with good Nehemias we can truely aunswere There is none of these thinges done but thou dost inuent them in thine hart and that all this is but to cast a feare vnto vs for they say their handes shall be weake from this worke that they perfect it not And therefore that our remedy is seeing we vse no meanes but by supplication but by manyfestation of the truth and seeke for nothing but Discipline which by the booke of ordination we promise to further according to our power euē to pray with the sayde Neh. Confirme O God our hands The first contradiction interlased with a lie that they make him Antichrist which refuseth the Presbytery is y ● we vrge this as perpetual out of the place of Timothy which Caluin doth referre to his ministery which is no contradiction seeing if it be referred to his office yet it being a peece of Timothies office to procure that the thinges which he had learned of Paule shoulde be kept according to their nature and difference perpetually in the Church it sufficiently prooueth the matter in hande otherwise how Could he keepe it vntill the comming of Christ Like to that is the allegation out of the French discipline that those articles which were there contayned touching discipline are not so setled amongst vs but that the vnity he should say vtility of the church so requiring they may be chaunged which I saye is a meere cauill for they speak not nor meane not it of the substance of discipline contained in y ● word but their maner of setting it downe according to the circumstaunces of their time as is plaine by Their title which calleth it but the firste cast brought of the substance of it as it is contayned in the Scriptures of the Apostles Which substaunce they were not so mad to change though they iudged they might alter thē in many points of circūstances For these sily contradictions let him take these monstrous ones proceding from this y ● they wil not acknowledge the perfection of y ● scriptures cōcerning discipline One nūbring vp as a circumstance to come clothed or naked to the supper of the Lord saith of those circūstances None of these circumstances are commauded in the Scriptures nor can by necessary collectiō be granted yet he knoweth it doth necessarily appertaine to comelines The next is that the Abstractor saith the Ministers ought not to wrest any thing into the gouernment of the church without due authoritie from the magistrate which he would haue contrary to that of the admonition M. Cartwright that our life must not be deare as thogh we can not by suffering if need were for so the condition is put aforde that without doing any thing which hath not due authority from the Magistrate His mingling of our sentence with Brownes is but a malitious proceeding Seeing him-selfe testifieth after that wee doe more then mislyke his doinges and writinges in respect of such proceedinges Like to this is that he alleadgeth out of Iunius that if the Prince doe hinder the building of the Church the people may by force of armes resist him Which as it is not in the Page which he noteth nor in all his booke of Discipline so how malitious a slander it is brought vp vpon so worthy a seruaunt of God maye appeare by his whole treatise of the ciuill Magistrat Lib. 3. cap. 5. Where hauing shewed how the Magistrate cannot alter the substantiall poyntes of Discipline and handled that question to one obiecting What shall the Church doe if it be by the Magistrates authoritye commaundement threatning and violence compelled Hee aunsweareth If the Magistrate ordayne any thing contrarie to God his worde that the Ministers shoulde plainly and modestly declare with Paule that they can do nothing against but for the truth But if the thinges be not contrarye to the truth and necessitie that the Churches are bound rather patiently to beare it then to bring the holy ordinaunce of God their body and the common peace into daunger Concerning excommunication shall be spoken after The booke he nameth of obedience I haue not The other matter out of the book deiure Magistratum as not pertayning to vs I purpose not to meddle with especially considering he handleth it more like a Lawyer then otherwise But after he hath alleadged testimonies to prooue that Which none but Papistes and Annabaptistes will deny that it is traiterous to teach the people that they shoulde owe no

Scriptures then it is of Magistrates onely as 1. chro 28. 1. 1. chro 13. 1. Or when the matters were meerely Ecclesiasticall then was the Ecclesiasticall Senate onely brought together as in consultatiō 2. king 6. 32. As in matters to be done in the congregation Act. 13. 15. For Excommunication John 9. 22. 10. 40. For interpretation the Priests and Leuites only Math. 24. And lastly by this that Peter being before both the Senates Ecclesiasticall and Ciuil doth plainly distinguish them calling y e one the cheefe or rulers of Israel the other the Elders of Israel Wherefore this proueth not that they did exercize ciuill authority and although our lawes political are not in this respect like vnto the Jewes yet if the Magistrate will call the Eldership to declare the will of God or pronounce duely an Ecclesiasticall sentence when hee will pronounce a Ciuill it may well be done without the confusion he speaketh of The next that he saith out of Caluine y e Presbitries of y e Jews was from men not frō heauen is fals for Caluin saith only since the captiuity it was chosen for the censure of manners but he sayth also in that place that that regiment was lawfull and allowed of God and that Christ did worthily prayse the order deliuered of the fathers and that which was kept vnder the law Christ sent vnto vs. Now the Fathers vnder the law did not any of those thinges and lesse then these but by God his commaundement by his Prophets yea this was commanded both that in euery City and that for more difficult causes at Hierusalem such Senate shoulde bee appointed Deut. 1. 8. 9. c. The like vntruethe is it that Musculus vnderstoode it of the whole Congregation for euen as D. Whitgift alleadged him pag. 633. He sayth It was by Seniors in Ecclesiasticall assemblie As vntrue is the other y ● Caluine sayth Neyther in Christes time nor 22. yeares after this Christian Eldership was established for he sayth in that place Where Christe a little after erected his Church the corruption beeing taken away he did restore the pure vse of Excommunication And that there is no doubt but this order of discipline which flourished vnder the kingdome of Christ succeeded into the place of that old and it is playn by the Scripture as soone as there was an ordinary set Congregation there were Elders which ioined with the Apostles in Church-gouernment Act. 12. 30. Actes 15. 6. Acts. 21. 18. Neither must they by example of the Jewes haue but one for a Nation only seeing it hath bene shewed such were in euery City and Synagogue wheras if we should square it after this his patterne we should haue one only for y ● whol Church That he saith y ● Apostles wold not haue executed the deacons office al Christs time He bableth fables which he knowth not for ther office in Christs time was only to preach and baptize in Iudaea and to be witnesses of Christs life doctrine death resurrection and ascention That which they did at Hierusalem was but to take care for y ● pore till they had fit persons and occasion to establish the order which Christe ordained neyther did they it only because they were withdrawn which if they were being so many how much more shall Ministers and Byshops bee if they looke to these and to ciuil affayres also but also because it was not acceptable meaning to God thus to doe when they had by God his blessing both suche persons place and time as he required Al the rest of his some of words that neither father Councel nor Scripture hath left in memory where when or by whom it was first erected put in practize is worse then nothing For it was done of the Apostles at Jerusalem long before the councell as is proued out of Act. 12. 30. But this sheweth their giddinesse y ● say somtime y ● it hath no testimony either of scripture or antiquity and yet again confesse and alleadge Ambrose to proue that Seniors haue beene and that they were extinguished before Ambrose his time which they will not say of Elders which minister the Word and Sacramentes for they were not extinguished before Ambrose his time neither yet are Also that they say the Byshops differ and are aboue other ministers for pollicy and order only and yet make them differ in the Ministery of grace as in the sentence of Exco●●●ucation of Absolution and according to their Doctrine of ministring strength against temptations by confirmation For these they make proper to the Byshop and not common to euery minister and notwithstanding the Minister must read the Excommunication yet y ● word sentence and authority doth come from the Byshop and for Absolution it is ynough to goe to him or his Delegate The nexte contraryetyes agree like friends for both all Is not expressed in the Scripture as the booke of Discipline sayth and yet all may be prooued by direct Scripture Seeing whatsoeuer is necessarily collected thence though it be not expressed is directlye prooued Also the next is of as little value for both Ministers and Preachers as Caluine sayth may be vnderstood and also gouerning Elders as Beza noteth The next is an open lye for Beza sayth on that place of Tim. 5. 17. Therefore there were two sortes of Elders When one sort should attend on gouernment the other on the Word prayer Of such force is the next for the booke of Discipline agreeth in iudgment with M. Cartwight that in the place of the 1. Tim. 3. vnder Deacous are comprehended both those properly so called and the Elders For M. Cartwright referreth him self to that obseruation Pag. 54. and prooueth it because the qualities there set downe are common to bothe and there are none touched proper to either and the Word Deacons is taken in diuers places for all those Ministers which are not occupyed in the Worde as Rom. 12. 6. 1. Pet. 4. 11. The next is like to that of the 14. of the Act and so to be answered Also one may gather The Eldership out of the. 1. Cor. 12 For of the 14. none doth and out of the other places both vnles he be so learned in diuinity y t he thinke diuers places cānot proue one thing His other cauil is not worth a rush for in one respect Deacons signifying somtime all Ministries not occupyed in the Worde may be a Genus or generall to Elders and Deacons so called Also the name Bishop beeing generally giuen of their work of watching or our-seeing Act. 20. vnto Elders may be commō both to ministers and gouerning Elders which disagreeth not with this that Elders be teaching and vnteaching It is true also which is obserued by the booke of Discipline that the name of Elders is not giuen to those Deacons which are distributers and his written booke may be ouer-seene in so smal a thing as

Actes 20. 7. 1. Cor. 16. 1. 2 Reuel 1. 10. Exod. 35. 36. 39. 42. 43. 1. Chron. 13. 2. 10. 11. 1. Chron. 15. 13. 1 chron 29. vers 12. 13 2. Chron. 13. 9. 10 11. 2. Chron. 9. 26. 2. Chro. 29. 25. Neh. 10. 29. 1. Cor. 12. 4. Heb. 3. 1. 2. 3. 4. c. Heb. 3. 1. 2. 3. 4. c. Ta leiponta epithiorthose hos ego soy dietaxamen a Rom. 12. 5. 6. 7. 1. Cor. 12. 28 Ephe. 4. 11. 1. Tim. 3. 5. 17. b Rom. 12 7. 8. 1. Cor 2. 4. 8 c Act. 3. 42 Math. 18. 17. 18. 1. Cor. 5. 12. Luke 21. 4. Actes 6. 3. d Math. 18 17. 18. 1. Tim. 5. 17. 1. Tim. 4. 14. e Actes 15. 6. Rom. 12. 4. 5 1. Cor. 12. 3. 4. 5. Math. 21. 25. Iohn 1. 25. a Deut. 31. Ephe. 4. 11. b Nehe. 8. Ephe. 4. 11. c 2. Chron. 2. King 6. 32 Act 13. 15. and. 4. 8. 1. Cor. 12. 28 d Ne. 13. 4. Actes 6. 2. Chron. 23 e Ezra 10. 8 Luke 22 66. Act. 5. 27 1. Tim. 4. 14 a Lu. 21. 14 1. Cor. 16. 1. b Leu. 7 18 Ierem. 36. 5. Math. 5. 23. 1. Cor. 11. 28 c Ge. 27. 14. Iohn 9 34. 22. Mat 18 17. 1. Cor. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 28 Lib. confes cap. 5. Harmonia confes pag. 43. Sect. 11. Hel. 1. Art 16 Beza confes 5 point cap. 35. P. Mart. in 1. Cor. 16 Musc in title of the Ministers 1. Peter 9. Actes 2. 42. Actes 15. Heb. 4. Chierot●nesai Mathetai Plebe Magisteria Rom. 15. 4. 1. Tim. 3. 16. 1. Tim. 3. 26. Tit. 1. 9. Deut. 6. Art 8. des ma●iages en ta discipline du Fraunce Math. 5. ● Tim. 3. 8. 9 Math. 9. Tit. 1. 7. 9. Genes 6. 1. Peter 3 ●● 1. Cor. 10. 1. Leuit. 10. 11. Actes 19. 5. Math. 28. Mark 6. 12. Iohn 4. 2. 38 1. Tim 5. 17 1. Corin. 11. Collos 3. 16 Math. 13. Ierem. 3. 1 Cor. 8. 15. Actes 15. Esay 52. 7. Psal 19. Luk. 2. Polu sunteles 1. Timot. 3. 1. Thes 1. Iohn 10. Heb. 13. For this if need be we can name the persons and prooue it Amos. 7. 14. Exiou Actes 15. 38 Vers 38. Verse 40. Caluin on this place Diabolou so taken verse 11. Veha cohanim iirdu Gnal iedahem * or by their hādes 1. Peter 5. 1. Peter 5. Chrisost in Math. 18. 1. Cor. 5. ver 7. 12. 13. 2. Cor. 2. 10. Epi●imia Charisasthai Curosai Act. 15. 19. Crino ctA 15. 22. M. Doctor Day at Paules crosse Nouember 17 Quodesh Conninentiam Traditione dominica 1. Cor. 12. 1. Cor. 14. Colos 4. Verse 28. 1 Cor. 12. 28 Ciprian lib 1. epist 9. ad furitanos Ambros lib. 1. off c. 50. Aug. quest ex vtroq test mixt q 101. Hist lib. 5. cap. 3. Scholazon ti de tei diatribe Toi Katechein anakeimenou Toutes katecheseos proeste didaskaleiou Actes 14. Actes 6. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Tim. 5. 1. Reason Iesuites Testament Rheimes 1. Tim. 5. 17. D. Cop. ser lat in con Calos Heb. 13. 17. 1. Thes 5. 2. Reason 1. Thes 5. 3. Reason Rom. 12. 6. 1. Cor. 12. 13. 14. 27. 1. Cor. 13. 2. 9 Beza on this place Marke 15. 1. Luke 22. 16. Iames 5. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Thes 5. Actes 14. 1. Tim. 5. Presbiterion Kai synedrion Clerum Page 191 Page 191 192 Act 11. 15 Galat. 4. Confirmation de la discipline ecclesiastique Page 191. 204. Nehem. 6. 6. ver 7. 8. 9. Page 193 2. Tim. 2. Primier proiect D. Whit. booke Page 24. page 25. Page-194 Page 214. Page 207. Page 196. Page 197. D. Whit last booke 161. 1. Chron. 27 30. 2. Chro. 19. 8. 11. Hesr 10. 8. Page 192. 〈…〉 3●9 D. Whit. last b. deuis 6. 7. page 631. Esa 31. 1. 2. 3 Math. 7. 1. Cor. 12. 2. 4. c. Eph. 4. 11. Rom. 12. 6. 7. 1. Cor. 12. Actes 6. Mat. 18. 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12. 6. Mat. 18. ver 7. 7. 8. Page 197 Page 198 1. Corin. 9. Prouerb 4. Galath 6. Boneuen cap. 18. fine Danaeus c. 10. lib 2. Isag 2. part 1. Chr. 27. 30 2. Chron. 19. 8. 11. Archontes tou laou Presbyteroi Dilecto Dilecto 2. Chr. 29. 25 Mark 5. 22. Acts. 13. 15. Act. 18. 8. 17. Marke 3 14. Ioh 4. 2. 28. Act. 1. 21. 22. Ar●ston D. Whitgifts s book page 651. Ibid. Page 385. Beza on that place Duplices S. rep S. part D. Whitg s booke Page 309. Ibid. Page 203. Page 205. 206. 1 Chro. 19. Defense of the Apol. 6. part Ch. 11. deuis 11. 12. Ch. deuis 4. M. Nowel tom 2. part 35. 38. b. second p. 167. Def. apol part 6. Page 720. Tom. 2. fol. 53. Euseb lib. 6. Cap. 14. Theod. 5 18. D. Whit. b. s pag 52 Page 7. 8. Harm confes Gal. confes page 53 art 30 La confirmation de La Discipline ecclesiastique obseruee es eglises reformees du Royaulme du Fraunce page 7. Neh. 8. 1. Thes 5. Rom. 12. Rom. 12. 5. 6 7. 1 Co. 12. Esay 62. 8. Esay 4. 5. 6. Part. 2. Isag lib. 2. c. 10. page 191. 192. Actes 14. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Tim. 5. Page 211. Page 212. On the Act. 1. 6 D. Whitg s booke Page 146. Ibid. page 191. In the rubrick howe the rest of holy scripture c. Iewel apol p. 2. p. 122. D. whit in the end Page 35. Questions 1 2 3 4 5. 6. 7 8 9 10 11 12