fathers who are best assured of their husbands and parents constant loue vnto them Feare of Gods anger against vs by reason of our sins may well stand with assurance of saluation Else why did Dauid require That wee should serue the Lord in feare and reioyce in trembling May a man tremble and yet reioyce and may hee not feare to offend and yet be assured of fauour Pa. Well wee haue expresly That euery man shall be iudged according to his workes A poc 20. Prot. Good And so haue wee Pa. Nay you teach That men shall be iudged only according to their faith Prot. That is not true We teach that seeing it is most fitting for the nature and condition of iudgements to take the euidence whereupon the sentence shall bee pronounced from such things as are most notorious the works good or euill being knowne both to Men and Angells whereas faith which hath her seat in the heart is only seene of the Lord it is most conuenient for iustifying the truth of the Iudge before the world that those things should bee giuen in euidence which fall into the knowledge of the standers by especially when the godly themselues shall be admitted into part of the honour of our Sauiour Christs iudiciall sentence against the reprobates And for this cause it is as we say that our Sauiour at the latter day will say Come yee blessed of my Father For when I was hungry you gaue me meate rather then For that you haue beleeued in mee Haue you any more to say Pa. Yea Wee haue expresly That there remains a retribution stipend and pay to euery good worke in heauen Mark 9. 1 Corinth 3. Apoc. 22. Psal 118. Prot. And doe wee denie it Wee beleeue no good deed shall be lost no not the bestowing of a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple Wherefore this makes nothing against vs. Pa. Yea but you teach Good workes done in Christ merit nothing Prot. Yea but it is one thing to teach That good works done in Christ find retribution and paiment in heauen and another thing to say They merit some things for retribution and stipends and paies are as well giuen of curtesie as of debt or merit Wherefore we teach the former and deny the latter VVhat is your next instance Pa. Wee haue expresly That the affliction which Daniel vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God Dan. 10. Prot. And what is that to vs Pa. Much for you teach That such voluntary corporall afflictions are in vaine Prot. But wee doe not Wee teach with S. Paul 1 Tim. 4. 8. that Corporall exercise voluntarie corporall afflictions are profitable to little There is some good vse of them Not a man of vs teacheth that such voluntary corporall afflictions as Daniel vsed and to such end as hee did vse them are in vaine Haue you not done Pa. No wee haue a plaine text Gen. 48. God who hath fed mee from my youth vp euen to this day The Angel who hath deliuered mee from all aduersâ—ie blesse these children Which implies as much as if we would say God and our Ladie blesse them Prot. By the Angel which is here praied vnto is not meant any created Angel but the Angel of the euerlasting Couenant Christ Iesus as it is plaine by the circumstances of the text and by that testimony of the Fathers And therfore this praier doth not iustifie your praier God and our Lady blesse them No man euer conceiued a praier after this manner Det tibi Deus Angelus that is in effect God and our Lady blesse them saith Athanasius Pa. We haue expresly It is an holy cogitation to pray for the dead 2. Mach. 12. Prot. Yea but the Booke of Machabees is not Canonicall Scripture as I shall proue vnto you ere wee part Now I looke for proofe at your hands out of the Canonicall Scripture Pa. Why then if I should tell you we read expresly in the same Booke that Ieremy the Prophet after hee was dead praied for the people of Israel wherby is proued Intercession of Saints you would put mee off with this That the Scripture alledged by me is not Canonicall Scripture Prot. I might doe so yet I need not for we deny not that Saints make intercession for vs in generall And your Bellarmine alledgeth this to that purpose only Hee alledgeth it not either to proue Inuocation of Saints or the intercession of Saints in particular Pa. And what would you answere me if I vrged That wee haue an expresse example of an holy man that offered sacrifice for the dead 2 Mach. 12. Prot. I would answere you to it That the holy man you meane of offered sacrifice for the liuing and not for the dead And for the full proofe thereof I would referre you to Doctor Reinolds Readings vpon the Apocrypha praelect 158. Pa. And what answere should I looke to receiue of you vpon mention that Tobit 12. wee read expresly That an Angel did present Tobias good workes and almes deeds before God Prot. My answere to that should bee That the booke is Apocrypha Pa. And is not the Booke of Ecclesiasticus Apocrypha in which wee read expresly thus Omnis misericordia faciet locum vnicuique secundum meritum operum Mercie shall make a place to euery man according to the merit of his workes Prot. Yes but I will vse the exception in this case The exception which I take is that the wordes are cited out of a corrupt Translation for in the Greek wherein Ecclesiasticus was first written there is no mention made of merit To euery pitlifull act of goodnesse giue place for euery one shall find not according to the merit of his works but according to his works saith the Greeke Pa. Indeed I confesse the word merit is not in the Greeke for the word merit is not Greeke but Latine yet the Greeke wordes are well translated by the word merit no man can deny who knowes the rudiments of Greek for in the Greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which in Latine signifies as much as pro meritis operum Prot. Indeed you fit it for our Sauiour Christ warning his disciples how they should carry themselues towardes the Scribes and Pharisies Doe not saith hee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not meaning after the merit of their workes but simply after their works Your great M. Cardinal Bellarmine of whom you had this was deceiued Pa. And is that proofe which we fetch for merits out of Heb. 13. 16. fetched out of a corrupt translation Beneficence and communication forget not for with such sacrifices God is promerited Prot. Yea verily for according to the Greeke the Apostle saith no more but That with such hosts God is wel pleased And that may appeare vnto you by this that both S. Austine and Beda read so and
your own Translator else where translates so Pa. Yet Primasius S. Austines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin With such hosts God is promerited Prot. Yea but how know you that that Commentarie is Primasius his owne for it is the selfe same which is fathered on Haymo who liued after the yeere 800. whose credit is nothing answerable to Primasius Pa. Well let both these places passe Is not a plaine text for extreme vnction which is in S. Iames Infirmatur quis in vobis If any among you bee dangerously sicke let him send for the Priests of the Church and they to pray ouer him anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. Prot. Of whom learned you to translate Infirmatur quis in vobis If any man bee dangerously sicke c. I thought the word Infirmatur had signified any infirmitie great or small growing vpon a man And if so then the text makes as much against you as vs. For first you aneale not all such persons as are infirm but only such as you suppose to be desperately sicke sick vnto death Secondly you send not Presbiters Priests but any one bold Priest to anoint them and pray ouer them Thirdly you intend principally in anealing them the forgiuenesse of sinnes whereas by the text is principally intended the curing of them of their infirmities Which is so plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you Pa. What Cardinall is that Prot. Caietan whose wordes these are Nec ex verbis nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de sacramentali vnctione extreme vnctionis sed mag is de vnctione quam instituit Dominus Iesus in Euangelio à discipulis exercendam in agrâ—tis Textus enim non dicit Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem sed absolute infirmatur quis Et effectam dicit infirmi alleuiationem de remissione peccatorum non loquitur nisi conditionaliter quum extrema vnctio non nisi prope articulum mortis datur Et directe vt eius forma sonaâ—â— tendiâ— ad remissionem peccatorum praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes tum vngentes mandâ—t vocari quod ab extrema vnctionis ritâ— alienum est Pa. But is not that a plaine text for proofe of satisfaction which is alledged by Doctor Harding out of 2 Cor. 7. 1. Prot. What are the words Pa. Seeing then wee haue these promises dearely beloued let vs clense our selues from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit making perfect our satisfaction in the feare of God Prot. These are plaine words I promise you But I doe not remember that I euer read such words either in the Greeke or in any translation Your Doctor I beleeue hath shewed a piece of cunning and chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and quite altered the Apostles meaning Pa. God forbid he should haue dealt so naughtily But what say you to the text alledged by Cardinal Hosius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the same doctrine of Satisfaction Is it not pregnant to his purpose Prot. How cites he it Pa. Exhibeamus membra nostra seruire iustitiae in satisfactionem Let vs exhibit our members to serue iustice vnto satisfaction Prot. In good earnest this is a plaine text but it is none of Saint Pauls It is one of your Cardinalls owne making As Harding in the former so your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and made a proposition of his owne different from S. Pauls I wish it were no Argument of their sanctification to deale so falsly with the Scriptures they had need to make satisfaction though not to God because they cannot yet to his Church for such bad dealing Pa. But are there not expresse words for the supremacy of S. Peter Matt. 16. where we read thus Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke will I build my Church M. Walsingham saith That the Author of the answere to M. Charks booke giues this for one instance in way of prouing that expresse Scripture is for vs. Prot. I know no such text in S. Matthew as Thou art a Rock I finde there Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church but Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke I will build my Church is not in any booke nor in any Bible that I haue seene Pa. Are these words Dies prima erit sancta septima eadem Religione venerabiles The first day shal be holy and the seuenth day with like religion shall be venerable wherby Cardinall Bellarmine would proue That euery holy thing is to bee religiously worshipped in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpose Prot. Yea but those are not in my Bible nor in yours I thinke your false Cardinall hath most irreligiously chopt in a word religiously in the Text make search and trust me worse another time if it be not so Pa. I will I warrant you In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text you can alledge for proofe of your opinions Prot. Content Doe not these words in Deutronomy 4. 15 16 Take heed vnto your selues for yee saw no Image in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Hereb that yee corrupt not your selues and make you a grauen Image c. plainely proue That the Scriptures forbid the representing of God by any Image And yet doe not yee represent God the Father by the Image of an old man and the most of you maintaine That hee may lawfully be represented in such an Image Pa. I confesse with Vasquez That in the words you cite planè indicat Scriptura c. The Scripture speakes plainely that God did forbid the Iewes to represent him by any Image But you must know that Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuissent lege dâ—uâ—na imagines visibiles nedum ipsius Dei sed qu rumcunque sanctorum hominum nec de post in Scripturis siue veteris siue Noui Testamenti concessa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur nihilominus Ecclesia Catholica edocta à spiritu sancto nedum permisit imo statuit ordinauit vt venerabiles Imagines Christi gloriâ—sissimae suae matris caeterorum sanctorum fierent c. Though in old time the visible Images of God yea and of his Saints were forbidden by the Law of God and no libertie granted since either in the Old or New Testament to make any such yet the Church which is taught of God hath not onely permitted but decreed and ordained That the Images of Christ and his blessed Mother the Virgin Mary and the rest of the Saints may bee made for sundry good purposes Prot. What dare you say The Church hath decreed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture If so you must needs grant That the Scripture in this is for vs and against you The pretended Church not
Bishops By expresse Scripture they bee made Bishops who haue children 1 Tim. 3 4. Yet your Clemens the eighth would admit none to be Bishops who had children though some of his predecessors did otherwise yet his practise was according to your learning For in your Canon Law Pope Pelagius giuing one direction what manner of man hee should chuse for a Bishop bids him looke vnto it Nec vxorem habeat nec filios Hee neither haue wife nor children Whereof some of you giue this reason Quia filius est Argumentum ambulans super terram de incontinentia patris Because children are aprant ambling Arguments of the Incontinencie of their fathers By expresse Scripture they are condemned who forbid marriage 1 Tim. 4. 3. Yet yee doe so for yee will not suffer Priests to marry Pa. They who forbid marriage as vnlawfull such as the Manichees are condemned but not we who only forbid some sorts of men to marry Prot. The Manicheis did not forbid all men to marry but onely their Elect such as your Priests and Monkes And therefore if the Manicheis bee hereby condemned why not yee also In the Scriptures wee read expresly That if any who beleeueth not call a Christian to a feast the Christian should cate of whatsoeuer is set before him asking no question for conscience sake 1 Corinth 10. 27. Yet if one of you Papists bee bidden to a feast by a Protestant of whom you make no more esteeme then of one who beleeueth not you will not eate of whatsoeuer is set before you By expresse Scripture they are condemned who command men to abstaine from meats Yet so doe you Papists Qui gustauit ouum trahitur in carcerem cogitur que de haeresi causam dicere qui totam diem Dominicam vacat temulentiae scortis aleae audit bellus home He who eates an egge on a fasting day is committed to prison and suspected for an Hereticke Hee who sits at the Ale-house all the Lords day and giues himselfe to whoring and dicing is counted a good man and a true In the Scripture wee read expresly That the Lord laid vpon him viz Christ the iniquitie of vs all and that it was Christ who suffered for our sinnes and bare them in his body on the tree so that by his stripes we are healed Yet you teach That satisfaciendo patimur pro peccatis By satisfactory works we must suffer for our sinnes We as well as Hee Not hee only In the Scripture we read expresly That our Sauiour Christ did but offer himselfe once And yet you say That in precise manner hee offered himselfe twice Once at his last Supper and againe vpon the Crosse Pa. Some of vs say so indeed But there was a hot contention about it in the Councell at Trent a good sort maintaining resolutely That he did not offer himselfe at the last Supper Of which number that famous Mussus was one who was a Preacher at twelue yeeres old with whom all Italy was in admiration But say on In the Scripture wee read expresly That our Sauiour was not to offer himselfe often Yet you teach That he offered himselfe daily In the Scripture wee read expresly That if Christ be often offered hee must often suffer But you deny that hee suffers often though you grant he is often offered In the Scripture we read expresly That without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins Yet you teach That your Masse is a propitiatorie sacrifice for sin though you acknowledge it an vnbloody sacrifice In the Scripture it is expresly written That Marriage is honourable among all And yet you say Marriage of Priests is the worst sort of incontinency In the Scripture we read expresly That in many things wee sinne all Yet you say He who is iustified Legem omnino implet Keepes the Law wholly In the Scripture we read expresly That they are blessed who die in the Lord hereafter for they rest from their labours Yet you teach That many of those that die in the Lord goe to Purgatory where their labour is greater then they euer vnderwent in this world To be briefe In the Scripture we read expresly That Christ is the Head and Spouse of the Church Yet you tell vs The Pope is Head and Spouse of the Church In the Scripture wee read expresly That it is the blood of Christ which clenseth vs from all sin and yet you tell vs That Holy-water Holy-bread Bishops blessing and such like will clense vs from many sinnes In the Scriptures we read expresly of two places appointed for Soules after this life Heauen and Hell And yet you tell vs there are foure places Heauen Hell Purgatory and Limbus puerorum yea and perhaps a fift differing from all these By all which doe not you see how plaine and how plentifull the Scriptures are which make for vs and against you in matters controuersed Doe not you see his falshood who said The Catholikes follow the Bible but the Protestants force the Bible to follow them Pa. I see you huddle vp one Scripture in the neck of another readily But it hath beene the propertie of all Heretickes to make no bones of Scripture but prodigally to spend them and to lauish them out to proue thereby their heresies were they neuer so fantasticall Vincentius Lyrinensis witnesseth That Heretickes flie through euery volume of the heauenly Law and that they dye and colour almost euerie Page in their Bookes with sentences of the Old and New Testament Pro. And do not you so too I pray Are there not many Pages in many Books of yours which are died coloured with sentences of the Old and New Testament Is not your Canisius Catechisme as full of Texts of the Old and New Testament as any Heretickes Is not your Summarie of Controuersies made by W. C. and published A. 1623. and your Gagge of the New Gospel published â— 1622. dyed with sentences out of Scripture Pa. Yes but Heretickes insist vpon Scriptures only as S. Austine witnesseth whereas our Bookes are full of other testimonies out of Fathers and Councells Prot. Yea but it is not true that Hereticks insisted vpon Scripture only for the most notorious Hereticks that euer were haue beene as confident that the Fathers were on their side as you are confident they are on your side The most notorious Hereticks haue insisted much vpon the Fathers The Samosatenians who denied the Godhead of Christ bragd Maiores omnes etiam ipsos Apostolos ea sensisse ac docuisse quae ipsi nunc dicunt seruatamque esse predicationis veritatem vsque ad tempora Victoris qui 13. Ã Petro Romanorum Episcopus fuit All their predecessours euen the Apostles themselues thought as they thought and that the truth of their doctrine continued till Victors time who was the
thirteenth Bishop of Rome after S. Peter Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria who denied the two Natures of Christs cried out in the Councell at Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Cyrilli in multis locis Ego cum patribus eijcior ego defendo patrum dogmata non transgredior in alique horum testimonia non simpliciter neâ— transitorie sea in libris habeo I haue the testimonies of the holy Fathers Athanasius Gregories Cyrils and that in many places I am condemned with the Fathers it is I who defend the Fathers opinions I doe not swerue one Iod from them I haue their testimonies not by hearsay and at second hand but in their owne Bookes The Nestorians who held many heresies at the Councell of Ephesus made this protestation Nos in sanctorum patrum qui apud Nicâ—nam conuenerant caeterorumque qui post illos in Ecclesia claruerunt Eust achij Antiocheni Basilij Caesariensis Gregorij â—oannis Athanasij Theophili Damasi Romani Ambrosij Mediolanensis reliquorum que qui cum memoratis consentiunt doctrina perseuer amus pijsque illorum vestig ijs insistimus quippe qui Euangelâ—cam Apostolicamque Propheticam doctrinam plenè assecuti exact am Oxthedoxae fidei Rogulam nobis tradiderunt quam doctrinam nos inconcussam inflexamque retinere satagimus c. We maintaine the doctrine which the holy Fathers assembled at Nice and others who were men of fame in the Church since that time maintained Such as Eustacâ—ius of Antioch Basil of Caesarea Gregory Iohn Athanasius Theophilus Damasus of Rome Ambrose of Millain and the like Wee tread in their most holy steps who hauing fully attained to the knowledge of the Gospel and of the Apostles and of the Prophets haue left vs an exact rule to follow which wee desire also to leaue vnto our posterities c. Certaine Heretickes in a Councell held vnder Martin 1. cried out Haec pietatis dog mata tradiderunt nobis qui ab initio praesentialiter viderunt vel Ministri verbi facti sunt eorumque discipuli successores sequentes à Deo inspiratae Ecclestae doctores c. These religious opinions were deliuered vnto vs by such as were made Ministers of the Word at the beginning and by their disciples and successors and since by the Doctors of the Church who were illuminated by God c. And this is so plaine that Cope confesseth it in these words Veteres haeretici cum patres ipsis apertissimè aduer sarentur cos tamen à se stare magna contentionâ— clamabant The ancient Hereticks cried out with open mouth that the Fathers made for them though indeed the Fathers were flat against them And if Copes acknowledgement will not satisfie you you may find as much acknowledged by Baronius Annal To. 5. An. 431. Nu. 170. Pa. But what say you to Saint Anstine whom I alledged as witnessing That Hereticks insist vpon Scripture only Prot. I say it is not credible that Saint Austin euer said so or thought so for he himselfe witnesseth That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Visions and Miracles and Successions and Councells and Fathers as well as vpon Scripture That Heretickes insisted vpon Visions Saint Austin witnesseth De vnitate Ecclesiae Cap. 16. That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Miracles Saint Austin witnesseth Tract 13. in Ioh. That they haue insisted vpon Succession S. Austin witnesseth Epistola 165. And that Maximiniâ—s the Arian insisted vpon the Councell at Arminium That the Donatists insisted vpon S. Cyprian and other Fathers concurring in opinion with him That Pelagius insisted vpon Hilary and Ambrose and Chrysostome and Sixtus Bishop of Rome and Ierome and vpon some passages of S. Austin we read in S. Austin Now except hee would contradict himselfe how can it bee that hee who witnesseth these things should witnesse also That Hereticks insisted vpon Scripture only Pa. It seemes by your speech That Hereticks vsed all kind of arguments in defence of themselues and that they insisted vpon Fathers especially I could wish you durst refer the hearing of the more waighty differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers Prot. What reason haue you to feare that I dare not referre the hearing of the more weightie differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers it by Fathers you meane the Ancient Fathers and not your Father Iesuits Pa. I feare you dare not make such a reference because I read in Cardinall Baronius that Haeretici nostri temporis sic prouocant ad diuinam scripturam vt nisi tot syllabis elementis id ipsum quod profitetur Ecclesia Catholica in ea expressum inueniunt minimè sibi retinendum esse pertinacissimè reluct antur nullam vel traditionum vel sanctorum patrum interpretationum rationem pror sus habentes The Hereticks of this age he meanes such as you doe so appeale to Scripture that except they find therein euen in so many words whatsoeuer the Catholike Church beâ—eeueth they vtterly dislike it making no reckoning at all of Traditions or of the expositions of the Fathers Prot. Your Cardinall is a Cardinall lier We require no such dunstable plaine proofe out of Scripture for points of Faith as he lyingly affirmes Neither doe wee dispise the Fathers Wee confesse they were men indued of God with excellent gifts and brought no small light to the vnderstanding of Scriptures And much more we say saying nothing but what we thinke in their commendation Pa. Why but I haue heard for all your talke by others That you dispise all the Churches Doctors and ancient Fathers That you make no more account of the Fathers longer then you can wrest them to serue your turne then you doe of Beuis of Hampton or Adam Bel. Yea I read it written of such as you that Non alio loco reuera sanctos Patres habent quà m que loco Alcoranum Mahometi Esopi fabulas They make no more account of the holy Fathers then they doe of the Turks Alkaron or Esops Fables And that it is well knowne to such as heare your Sermons or be in place to heare you talke boldly and familiarly together among your selues you are not afraid plainly to confesse That the Fathers all were Papists And I am sure you know the man whose words these are The Protestants let not to confesse with Tobith Mathew That no man can read the Fathers and beleeue them and imbrace the New Religion Prot. I know there are of you Papists who confidently auouch That the old Fathers make against vs in all points and i that in most matters of Controuersie they are so plainly on your side that it cannot with any colour bee denied or called in question I know there are of you who write That in all the Volumes of the Fathers nothing is treated but what you professe nothing commended or condemned but what you commend or condemne and that we in our consciences know all Antiquitie to be against vs