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book_n hear_v speak_v word_n 2,510 5 4.2435 3 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A93091 A treatise of liturgies, power of the keyes, and of matter of the visible church. In answer to the reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball. By Thomas Shephard, sometimes fellow of Emanuel-Colledge in Cambridge, and late pastour of Cambridge in New-England. Shepard, Thomas, 1605-1649. 1652 (1652) Wing S3148; Thomason E681_17; ESTC R206794 175,099 213

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liturgy_n of_o which_o judgement_n we_o be_v answ_n it_o matter_n not_o whether_o they_o see_v so_o far_o and_o so_o judge_v if_o indeed_o the_o reason_n and_o nature_n of_o ceremony_n and_o the_o book_n be_v the_o same_o for_o the_o first_o reformer_n think_v their_o argument_n strong_a against_o oil_n cream_n and_o spittle_n etc._n etc._n in_o baptism_n but_o see_v not_o that_o they_o will_v hold_v against_o the_o cross_n surplice_n etc._n etc._n as_o well_o yet_o we_o doubt_v not_o but_o the_o reverend_a author_n do_v judge_v of_o all_o in_o the_o same_o manner_n and_o so_o it_o be_v in_o this_o case_n reply_n advert_v 4._o if_o these_o reason_n be_v intend_v only_o to_o show_v why_o you_o receive_v not_o our_o form_n of_o administration_n it_o be_v that_o which_o we_o be_v persuade_v you_o know_v we_o never_o require_v of_o you_o if_o to_o disallow_v the_o use_n of_o the_o book_n among_o we_o altogether_o in_o thing_n lawful_a good_a and_o pertinent_a they_o will_v not_o hold_v 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phrase_n be_v no_o more_o defile_v by_o idolatry_n than_o the_o light_n air_n or_o place_n where_o idolatry_n be_v commit_v etc._n etc._n answ_n it_o be_v just_a cause_n of_o grief_n unto_o we_o that_o this_o reverend_a author_n shall_v thus_o use_v the_o prelate_n plea_n for_o surplice_n and_o other_o ceremony_n to_o justify_v this_o corrupt_a liturgy_n for_o these_o be_v before_o the_o mass_n and_o many_o other_o idol_n of_o the_o papist_n and_o though_o a_o phrase_n o●_n word_n be_v not_o pollute_v by_o their_o use_n of_o it_o yet_o a_o needless_a ceremony_n and_o so_o a_o devise_a form_n of_o worship_n and_o a_o bundle_n of_o ceremonious_a and_o corrupt_a worship_n must_v needs_o be_v pollute_v by_o the_o use_n of_o they_o better_a to_o use_v the_o form_n of_o turk_n then_o papist_n say_v cartw._n supra_fw-la reply_n four_o put_v case_n the_o minister_n in_o read_v give_v offence_n give_v unlawful_a honour_n to_o a_o thing_n abuse_v to_o idolatry_n and_o suffer_v himself_o to_o be_v sinful_o limit_v in_o read_v what_o be_v that_o to_o the_o faithful_a this_o can_v be_v no_o ground_n that_o the_o people_n may_v not_o join_v etc._n etc._n answ_n we_o do_v not_o conclude_v that_o they_o do_v sin_n but_o fearful_a we_o be_v lest_o they_o may_v so_o do_v all_o thing_n consider_v in_o this_o case_n as_o have_v be_v before_o propound_v if_o indeed_o the_o case_n stand_v as_o former_o it_o have_v do_v in_o england_n we_o will_v have_v be_v less_o scrupulous_a and_o doubtful_a of_o the_o matter_n but_o if_o by_o the_o out-breaking_a of_o light_n after_o so_o long_a toleration_n of_o the_o book_n we_o see_v so_o many_o evil_a effect_n of_o it_o and_o see_v such_o superstitious_a opinion_n of_o it_o increase_v and_o such_o press_v the_o same_o to_o the_o oppression_n of_o the_o church_n so_o many_o fall_n so_o many_o weak_a one_o stagger_v and_o look_v at_o the_o example_n of_o their_o guide_n if_o now_o when_o all_o be_v call_v of_o god_n
one_o assembly_n to_o edification_n then_o there_o be_v some_o other_o form_n of_o a_o church_n beside_o congregationall_a but_o so_o it_o be_v in_o samaria_n &c_n &c_n answ_n we_o deny_v the_o consequence_n for_o when_o they_o grow_v to_o so_o great_a a_o number_n they_o may_v fall_v into_o more_o congregationall_a church_n and_o so_o no_o other_o form_n arise_v from_o the_o multitude_n but_o we_o suppose_v you_o mean_v of_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o be_v call_v a_o church_n and_o therefore_o to_o answer_v to_o your_o assumption_n we_o deny_v that_o any_o such_o multitude_n of_o believer_n as_o be_v here_o call_v a_o church_n be_v so_o great_a as_o can_v not_o meet_v to_o edification_n and_o first_o concern_v samaria_n reply_n that_o there_o be_v a_o church_n gather_v in_o samaria_n will_v not_o be_v deny_v for_o they_o receive_v the_o word_n and_o be_v baptize_v but_o that_o the_o church_n in_o that_o city_n be_v only_o a_o congregationall_a assembly_n be_v more_o than_o can_v probable_o be_v conclude_v answ_n we_o grant_v a_o church_n or_o church_n be_v gather_v in_o samaria_n and_o we_o accept_v your_o reason_n as_o good_a because_o they_o receive_v the_o word_n and_o be_v baptize_v where_o by_o the_o way_n you_o grant_v what_o we_o plead_v for_o before_o that_o the_o apostle_n gather_v church_n when_o they_o baptize_v they_o but_o that_o there_o be_v but_o one_o congregationall_a assembly_n lie_v not_o in_o we_o to_o prove_v until_o you_o prove_v that_o all_o the_o believer_n be_v call_v a_o church_n or_o one_o church_n which_o do_v not_o appear_v in_o the_o whole_a story_n act_v 8._o nor_o any_o other_o where_o that_o we_o can_v find_v and_o it_o be_v very_o probable_a that_o as_o philip_n convert_v and_o baptize_v so_o great_a a_o multitude_n at_o several_a time_n and_o gather_v they_o into_o the_o church_n or_o church_n as_o he_o baptize_v they_o so_o he_o may_v gather_v several_a church_n as_o well_o as_o one_o see_v that_o none_o doubt_v but_o that_o congregationall_a church_n be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n what_o ever_o man_n contend_v for_o beside_o and_o therefore_o be_v the_o number_n of_o believer_n in_o samaria_n as_o great_a as_o you_o will_v have_v it_o it_o prove_v nothing_o reply_n the_o church_n at_o jerusalem_n be_v one_o and_o distinct_a yet_o increase_v to_o 3000_o then_o to_o 5000_o etc._n etc._n answ_n be_v it_o so_o the_o increase_n be_v very_o great_a yet_o so_o long_o as_o they_o be_v call_v one_o distinct_a church_n it_o be_v one_o congregation_n viz._n until_o they_o scatter_v by_o the_o persecution_n about_o stephen_n act_v 7._o 8._o which_o be_v evident_a by_o these_o two_o argument_n first_o act_v 2_o 41_o etc._n etc._n where_o we_o see_v the_o 3000_o add_v to_o the_o 120._o they_o have_v their_o communion_n together_o describe_v 1_o in_o regard_n of_o their_o spiritual_a communion_n to_o be_v in_o the_o apostle_n doctrine_n fellowship_n break_v of_o bread_n and_o prayer_n verse_n 42._o second_o in_o regard_n of_o their_o outward_a communion_n in_o the_o good_a thing_n of_o this_o life_n they_o bid_v all_o thing_n common_a and_o sell_v their_o possession_n etc._n etc._n verse_n 44_o &_o 45_o now_o the_o manner_n of_o both_o part_n of_o this_o communion_n in_o respect_n of_o time_n and_o place_n be_v describe_v verse_n 46._o viz._n in_o their_o spiritual_a duty_n they_o continue_v daily_o with_o one_o accord_n in_o the_o temple_n and_o second_o in_o respect_n of_o their_o outward_a communion_n in_o their_o state_n they_o eat_v their_o meat_n from_o house_n to_o house_n this_o latter_a require_v many_o table_n and_o many_o house_n to_o provide_v for_o they_o so_o that_o although_o in_o their_o outward_a communion_n it_o be_v in_o private_a house_n yet_o their_o spiritual_a communion_n it_o be_v with_o one_o accord_n in_o one_o place_n viz._n the_o temple_n where_o they_o have_v room_n enough_o be_v the_o place_n erect_v for_o a_o national_n church_n and_o have_v favour_n with_o all_o the_o people_n be_v not_o interrupt_v therein_o by_o any_o persecution_n we_o need_v not_o step_v out_o of_o our_o way_n to_o reply_v to_o all_o that_o be_v say_v against_o this_o reason_n it_o be_v enough_o for_o we_o to_o note_v that_o they_o daily_o with_o one_o accord_n meet_v and_o that_o in_o the_o temple_n which_o be_v not_o answer_v by_o any_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d or_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 2_o this_o appear_v act_v 6._o 1_o 5._o where_o it_o be_v evident_a the_o election_n of_o deacon_n be_v before_o and_o by_o the_o multitude_n verse_n 1._o by_o the_o whole_a multitude_n verse_n 5._o and_o this_o be_v the_o last_o church-meeting_n and_o church-act_n we_o read_v of_o before_o their_o scatter_n neither_o can_v it_o appear_v that_o the_o jew_n and_o grecian_n who_o widow_n murmur_v be_v two_o distinct_a congregation_n but_o the_o contrary_n be_v evident_a in_o that_o the_o deacon_n be_v choose_v all_o by_o the_o whole_a and_o for_o the_o whole_a not_o distinct_o so_o many_o for_o this_o and_o so_o many_o for_o that_o church_n as_o it_o be_v needful_a if_o they_o be_v two_o church_n these_o proof_n be_v so_o clear_a the_o inconvenience_n object_v be_v of_o no_o force_n and_o sufficient_o answer_v by_o many_o example_n of_o as_o great_a assembly_n meet_v ordinary_o to_o edification_n as_o beside_o the_o auditory_a of_o chrysostome_n cite_v by_o other_o the_o assembly_n of_o stepney_n in_o london_n y●rmouth_n in_o norfolk_n and_o other_o in_o our_o experience_n beza_n a_o man_n not_o love_v to_o hyperbolise_v say_v that_o be_v in_o paris_n there_o meet_v at_o a_o sermon_n 332._o 24000._o and_o of_o a_o synodall_n assembly_n that_o they_o receive_v the_o lords-supper_n no_o less_o than_o 10000_o beza_n epist._n 65._o reply_n without_o question_v the_o number_n of_o believer_n at_o antioch_n be_v not_o small_a of_o which_o it_o be_v express_o say_v that_o a_o great_a number_n believe_v and_o that_o a_o great_a multitude_n be_v add_v to_o the_o lord_n by_o the_o preach_n of_o barnabas_n etc._n etc._n and_o therefore_o we_o may_v think_v the_o church_n rise_v to_o such_o a_o bigness_n as_o can_v not_o well_o assemble_v in_o one_o congregation_n act_v 11._o 21._o &_o 14._o 27._o answ_n 1_o in_o that_o place_n act_v 11._o 21._o the_o great_a number_n that_o believe_v be_v the_o fruit_n of_o all_o the_o scatter_a christian_n at_o phenice_n cyprus_n and_o antioch_n for_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o lord_n be_v with_o they_o all_o and_o their_o whole_a success_n be_v sum_v up_o together_o nothing_o say_v before_o of_o the_o other_o place_n 2_o though_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n teach_v much_o people_n yet_o it_o prove_v not_o that_o this_o much_o people_n be_v convert_v to_o the_o church_n 3_o though_o much_o people_n be_v add_v to_o the_o lord_n yet_o do_v it_o follow_v they_o be_v more_o than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n and_o if_o first_o disciple_n be_v there_o call_v christian_n must_v it_o need_v be_v for_o their_o number_n and_o not_o rather_o for_o eminent_a likeness_n to_o christ_n with_o other_o specialty_n of_o providence_n 4_o it_o be_v express_o say_v the_o church_n be_v gather_v together_o act_v 14._o 27._o which_o be_v not_o mean_v of_o the_o elder_n only_o as_o if_o they_o only_o can_v meet_v for_o chap._n 15._o 30._o they_o gather_v the_o multitude_n together_o so_o that_o it_o be_v not_o such_o a_o number_n but_o may_v meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n reply_n the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v great_a at_o ephesus_n where_o paul_n preach_v two_o year_n all_o that_o dwell_v in_o asia_n hear_v the_o word_n a_o great_a door_n and_o effectual_a way_n open_v to_o he_o where_o the_o shrine_n of_o diana_n her_o temple_n be_v in_o danger_n to_o be_v set_v at_o nought_o where_o those_o that_o use_v curious_a art_n burn_v their_o book_n open_o which_o can_v not_o be_v do_v without_o great_a danger_n of_o the_o church_n unless_o a_o great_a part_n of_o the_o city_n have_v believe_v act_v 19_o 10_o 19_o 27._o answ_n 1_o be_v it_o so_o that_o many_o be_v convert_v and_o the_o word_n grow_v mighty_o this_o prove_v not_o that_o all_o who_o hear_v paul_n be_v of_o the_o church_n of_o ephesus_n for_o then_o all_o asia_n shall_v be_v of_o that_o church_n act_n 19_o 10._o who_o do_v hear_v the_o word_n both_o jew_n and_o gentile_n as_o for_o the_o danger_n of_o the_o shrine_n and_o diana_n temple_n to_o be_v set_v at_o nought_o a_o little_a spark_n may_v kindle_v such_o fear_n and_o raise_v such_o outcry_n in_o the_o covetous_a craftsman_n by_o who_o the_o whole_a city_n be_v set_v in_o a_o superstitious_a uproar_n our_o own_o experience_n may_v teach_v how_o soon_o a_o profane_a people_n will_v cry_v out_o against_o a_o faithful_a minister_n before_o he_o have_v convert_v
have_v bestow_v a_o great_a part_n of_o our_o labour_n in_o these_o part_n neither_o we_o hope_v altogether_o in_o vain_a which_o make_v we_o somewhat_o the_o more_o engage_v and_o encourage_v to_o write_v as_o we_o do_v and_o now_o have_v thus_o far_o in_o this_o epistle_n and_o in_o the_o book_n follow_v testify_v our_o love_n to_o the_o truth_n and_o desire_n of_o the_o peace_n unity_n reformation_n and_o prosperity_n of_o our_o belove_a england_n and_o the_o church_n of_o god_n therein_o we_o commend_v both_o to_o the_o consideration_n of_o the_o reader_n and_o all_o to_o the_o grace_n and_o blessing_n of_o christ_n jesus_n and_o rest_n from_o new-england_n novemb_n 28._o 1645._o tho._n allin_n tho._n shepard_n advertisement_n to_o the_o reader_n to_o the_o epistle_n of_o the_o author_n of_o this_o reply_n we_o say_v nothing_o because_o it_o savour_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o love_n and_o desire_v of_o unity_n which_o we_o thankful_o acknowledge_v only_o we_o can_v but_o take_v notice_n of_o two_o passage_n 1_o a_o complaint_n make_v against_o some_o stand_a affect_a new-england_n ward_n who_o have_v carry_v it_o so_o as_o if_o a_o chief_a part_n of_o holiness_n consist_v in_o separation_n and_o that_o therefore_o some_o have_v separate_v from_o all_o private_a and_o public_a communion_n there_o other_o from_o all_o public_a but_o not_o from_o private_a other_o from_o the_o sacrament_n only_o allow_v public_a communion_n otherwise_o to_o which_o we_o answer_v that_o as_o the_o church_n fall_v by_o degree_n into_o universal_a pollution_n by_o the_o apostasy_n foretell_v to_o be_v under_o the_o man_n of_o sin_n so_o by_o degree_n it_o recover_v out_o of_o it_o again_o if_o therefore_o separation_n reach_v no_o far_o than_o separation_n from_o sin_n and_o such_o sin_n of_o church_n wherein_o ourselves_o in_o join_v with_o they_o must_v be_v involve_v we_o suppose_v such_o separation_n all_o due_a respect_n and_o love_v reserve_v and_o profess_v to_o the_o church_n themselves_o can_v just_o be_v account_v unwarrantable_a and_o it_o be_v the_o profession_n of_o the_o author_n in_o his_o epistle_n to_o plead_v for_o communion_n with_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n no_o far_o than_o they_o hold_v communion_n with_o christ_n if_o any_o transgress_v these_o bound_n either_o in_o respect_n of_o private_a or_o public_a communion_n in_o england_n we_o must_v profess_v open_o that_o if_o any_o mourn_n for_o it_o we_o be_v or_o will_v be_v companion_n with_o they_o in_o that_o grief_n who_o heart_n bleed_v not_o to_o see_v god_n flock_n scatter_v and_o needless_a rent_n make_v that_o scarce_o truth_n or_o error_n can_v now_o adays_o be_v receive_v but_o it_o be_v maintain_v in_o a_o way_n of_o schism_n direct_o contrary_a to_o the_o gather_n and_o unite_n spirit_n of_o jesus_n christ_n a_o wide_a conscience_n call_v evil_a good_a and_o therefore_o can_v communicate_v with_o any_o evil_n a_o strait_a conscience_n call_v good_a evil_a as_o gerson_n observe_v and_o therefore_o can_v ready_o separate_v even_o from_o that_o which_o be_v good_a when_o rash_a and_o sudden_a man_n be_v grow_v master_n of_o their_o conscience_n it_o trouble_v not_o they_o from_o who_o they_o divide_v nor_o whither_o they_o run_v in_o separate_a way_n when_o weak_a yet_o godly_a man_n be_v under_o the_o tenderness_n yet_o much_o darkness_n of_o conscience_n be_v very_o timorous_a of_o way_n that_o be_v evil_a grow_v many_o time_n shy_a at_o least_o in_o simplicity_n be_v lead_v from_o way_n that_o afterward_o be_v find_v to_o be_v lawful_a and_o good_a it_o be_v the_o usual_a misery_n of_o english_a spirit_n either_o to_o spin_v the_o spider_n web_n and_o swallow_v down_o all_o corruption_n in_o church_n or_o so_o to_o break_v down_o the_o gap_n in_o forsake_v corruption_n utter_o to_o abandon_v the_o church_n themselves_o the_o wine_n of_o causeless_a separation_n have_v a_o spirit_n in_o it_o if_o god_n gracious_o prevent_v not_o that_o hurry_v man_n headlong_o to_o strange_a distance_n that_o in_o separate_n from_o public_a they_o separate_v from_o private_a in_o separate_v from_o corrupt_a church_n as_o no_o church_n they_o separate_v from_o the_o pure_a even_o those_o of_o their_o own_o in_o separate_v from_o pollution_n of_o god_n ordinance_n at_o last_o they_o fall_v to_o the_o storm_a of_o some_o if_o not_o to_o the_o utter_a renounce_n of_o all_o the_o ordinance_n themselves_o we_o mourn_v we_o say_v for_o such_o evil_n and_o can_v with_o bend_a knee_n desire_v our_o dear_a countryman_n to_o consider_v whether_o this_o be_v the_o spirit_n of_o christ_n jesus_n that_o so_o carry_v they_o to_o reject_v they_o who_o the_o lord_n jesus_n have_v not_o yet_o whole_o forsake_v and_o not_o rather_o with_o one_o heart_n and_o with_o bowel_n of_o compassion_n if_o any_o liberty_n can_v be_v procure_v to_o study_v how_o to_o heal_v the_o bleed_a breach_n and_o manifold_a evil_n of_o sick_a and_o sinful_a england_n that_o in_o their_o own_o recovery_n from_o pollution_n the_o whole_a may_v arise_v and_o share_v alike_o with_o they_o therein_o tolerate_v with_o all_o long-suffering_a many_o thing_n amiss_o &_o mourn_v daily_o after_o the_o lord_n till_o such_o time_n come_v wherein_o he_o will_v give_v his_o people_n his_o ordinance_n not_o only_o in_o purity_n but_o also_o in_o power_n when_o the_o lord_n shall_v be_v one_o and_o his_o name_n one_o zach._n 14._o 9_o over_o all_o the_o earth_n as_o for_o ourselves_o we_o look_v not_o upon_o our_o departure_n to_o these_o part_n to_o be_v a_o separation_n rigid_o take_v but_o a_o lawful_a secession_n or_o a_o heavenly_a translation_n from_o corrupt_a to_o more_o pure_a church_n by_o the_o hand_n of_o our_o god_n and_o how_o far_o we_o allow_v of_o separation_n the_o ensue_a treatise_n will_v declare_v 2_o the_o second_o be_v that_o we_o dissent_v one_o from_o another_o as_o much_o as_o other_o from_o we_o and_o perhaps_o the_o lesser_a part_n of_o we_o answ_n we_o confess_v we_o know_v but_o little_a and_o that_o but_o in_o part_n and_o therefore_o if_o we_o shall_v say_v that_o in_o some_o thing_n we_o do_v not_o dissent_v we_o shall_v not_o speak_v the_o truth_n nor_o say_v that_o we_o be_v sinful_a man_n yet_o this_o we_o must_v speak_v to_o his_o praise_n who_o we_o be_v and_o who_o we_o serve_v with_o our_o spirit_n in_o the_o gospel_n of_o his_o son_n that_o although_o satan_n have_v be_v oft_o busy_a to_o make_v breach_n among_o we_o yet_o the_o minister_n of_o christ_n have_v be_v hitherto_o general_o if_o not_o all_o of_o one_o heart_n and_o mind_n in_o the_o main_a and_o principal_a thing_n of_o his_o kingdom_n among_o we_o and_o which_o be_v observe_v by_o many_o where_o ever_o difference_n be_v sow_v yet_o the_o minister_n never_o disagree_v and_o that_o although_o some_o difference_n have_v and_o do_v arise_v before_o their_o convening_n together_o yet_o they_o never_o yet_o meet_v but_o grace_n have_v overwrestled_n corruption_n peace_n trouble_n and_o truth_n error_n and_o so_o have_v most_o sweet_o accord_v in_o one_o the_o thought_n of_o which_o christ-like_a peaceablenesse_n of_o spirit_n and_o love_n as_o it_o oft_o sweeten_v many_o other_o sorrow_n so_o we_o desire_v to_o be_v spare_v herein_o and_o that_o this_o our_o crown_n may_v not_o be_v take_v from_o we_o by_o such_o passage_n suggest_v great_a difference_n as_o these_o be_v now_o for_o the_o reply_n itself_o we_o desire_v the_o reader_n to_o consider_v that_o we_o have_v neither_o time_n nor_o book_n ready_a at_o hand_n to_o consider_v some_o of_o the_o quotation_n make_v in_o the_o margin_n and_o therefore_o be_v such_o testimony_n as_o cast_v not_o the_o balance_n one_o way_n or_o another_o we_o have_v pass_v most_o of_o they_o by_o with_o silence_n it_o have_v also_o be_v easy_a for_o we_o to_o have_v analyse_v more_o orderly_o the_o word_n of_o the_o reply_n then_o as_o they_o be_v set_v down_o but_o because_o we_o will_v not_o do_v the_o 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of_o the_o people_n in_o join_v with_o the_o read_n of_o this_o liturgy_n or_o so_o much_o of_o it_o as_o be_v read_v usual_o by_o such_o idol-priest_n first_o concern_v the_o liturgy_n itself_o if_o you_o respect_v the_o matter_n and_o form_n or_o manner_n of_o it_o it_o will_v be_v too_o tedious_a to_o rip_v up_o what_o for_o matter_n have_v be_v object_v by_o the_o godly_a reformer_n consider_v but_o two_o thing_n object_v strong_o by_o mr._n cartwright_n against_o the_o form_n or_o manner_n of_o it_o first_o that_o it_o be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o popish_a masse-book_n concern_v which_o he_o affirm_v that_o although_o there_o be_v nothing_o in_o it_o unlawful_a or_o against_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o say_v he_o i_o wish_v there_o be_v not_o yet_o no_o word_n of_o god_n no_o reason_n nor_o example_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n jewish_n or_o christian_a will_v permit_v we_o to_o use_v the_o same_o form_n and_o ceremony_n viz._n with_o papist_n be_v neither_o command_v of_o god_n nor_o such_o as_o there_o may_v not_o be_v as_o good_a as_o they_o and_o rather_o better_a establish_v yea_o consider_v how_o near_o the_o papist_n live_v among_o we_o it_o be_v more_o safe_a to_o conform_v to_o the_o ceremony_n of_o the_o turk_n that_o be_v far_o off_o and_o this_o he_o speak_v of_o the_o form_n of_o liturgy_n as_o well_o as_o ceremony_n cartw._n reply_n to_o whitgift_n answer_v to_o the_o admonition_n to_o the_o parliament_n pag._n 131_o 132._o and_o although_o you_o seem_v to_o make_v light_n of_o this_o objection_n after_o page_n 15._o end_n yet_o in_o a_o like_a case_n when_o whitgift_n have_v say_v it_o be_v not_o material_a that_o dean_n canon_n come_v from_o the_o pope_n cartwright_n reply_v thus_o it_o be_v as_o if_o he_o have_v say_v it_o skill_v not_o if_o they_o come_v out_o of_o the_o bottomless_a pit_n for_o whatsoever_o come_v from_o the_o pope_n who_o be_v antichrist_n come_v first_o from_o the_o devil_n cartw._n reply_v pag._n 204._o second_o he_o object_v that_o absurd_a manner_n of_o chap_a and_o interrupt_v the_o prayer_n of_o which_o mr._n cartwright_n say_v that_o if_o any_o man_n shall_v make_v such_o a_o supplication_n to_o a_o prince_n he_o will_v think_v he_o to_o make_v his_o supplication_n before_o he_o know_v what_o to_o ask_v or_o that_o he_o have_v forget_v some_o piece_n of_o his_o suit_n or_o that_o he_o be_v 138._o distract_v in_o his_o understanding_n much_o more_o may_v be_v add_v but_o we_o have_v only_o touch_v this_o sore_a and_o in_o the_o word_n of_o that_o learned_a and_o zealous_a reformer_n that_o it_o may_v appear_v neither_o the_o opinion_n of_o that_o book_n nor_o the_o reason_n against_o it_o be_v so_o new_a or_o proper_a to_o the_o separatist_n as_o be_v pretend_v now_o what_o comfort_n can_v anygodly_a conscience_n have_v to_o join_v in_o or_o conform_v unto_o such_o a_o form_n of_o worship_n as_o this_o be_v further_o consider_v the_o administration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n according_a to_o the_o book_n as_o we_o speak_v still_o of_o join_v in_o it_o who_o know_v not_o that_o such_o must_v subject_v their_o child_n to_o that_o gross_a idol_n of_o the_o cross_n and_o see_v and_o approve_v the_o pollution_n of_o god_n ordinance_n with_o the_o same_o and_o at_o the_o lord_n table_n join_v in_o that_o idolatrous_a gesture_n of_o kneel_v and_o therefore_o how_o the_o godly_a can_v join_v lawful_o in_o the_o whole_a or_o such_o part_n as_o those_o idol-priest_n dispense_v let_v all_o nonconformist_n judge_n and_o it_o be_v well_o know_v how_o superstitious_o precise_a such_o be_v in_o press_v all_o conformity_n to_o every_o gesture_n and_o ceremony_n prescribe_v in_o their_o book_n which_o they_o so_o idolize_v as_o they_o have_v good_a cause_n be_v that_o which_o maintain_v they_o second_o if_o we_o consider_v the_o imposition_n hereof_o by_o the_o prelate_n and_o late_a strict_a press_v thereof_o upon_o the_o people_n to_o be_v present_a and_o conform_v full_o to_o it_o as_o well_o as_o upon_o minister_n to_o use_v it_o the_o very_a yield_v of_o conformity_n thereto_o do_v miserable_o cast_v away_o the_o liberty_n purchase_v by_o christ_n to_o his_o church_n enthral_v the_o church_n to_o antichrist_n and_o lift_v up_o the_o power_n of_o antichrist_n in_o his_o tyrannous_a usurpation_n upon_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n three_o we_o may_v add_v the_o dangerous_a consequence_n and_o scandal_n that_o follow_v from_o admit_v this_o liturgy_n which_o be_v touch_v in_o our_o answer_n to_o the_o first_o position_n we_o here_o pass_v over_o these_o thing_n consider_v it_o appear_v not_o only_o that_o there_o be_v need_v to_o disprove_v the_o first_o part_n of_o your_o disjunction_n which_o you_o decline_v in_o state_v the_o question_n but_o also_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o position_n itself_o be_v confirm_v now_o let_v we_o consider_v your_o proof_n of_o the_o second_o part_n of_o your_o disjunction_n which_o be_v thus_o reply_v if_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o minister_n than_o it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o join_v with_o such_o a_o one_o in_o any_o ordinanee_n of_o god_n for_o if_o the_o minister_n make_v it_o unlawful_a than_o all_o communion_n in_o any_o part_n of_o god_n worship_n with_o such_o minister_n be_v unlawful_a and_o so_o the_o church_n in_o all_o age_n of_o the_o world_n the_o prophet_n our_o saviour_n christ_n the_o apostle_n and_o the_o faithful_a in_o the_o primitive_a church_n sin_v in_o hold_v communion_n with_o such_o when_o the_o priest_n be_v dumb_a dog_n etc._n etc._n but_o we_o never_o read_v that_o the_o prophet_n our_o saviour_n christ_n the_o apostle_n do_v ever_o forbear_v themselves_o or_o warn_v the_o faithful_a not_o to_o communicate_v with_o such_o in_o the_o ordinance_n of_o worship_n our_o saviour_n charge_v the_o disciple_n to_o beware_v of_o the_o leaven_n of_o the_o scribe_n and_o pharisee_n but_o never_o forbid_v they_o to_o communicate_v with_o they_o in_o the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n answ_n to_o this_o 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the_o like_a reason_n the_o godly_a sin_n in_o receive_v sacrament_n etc._n etc._n from_o they_o as_o minister_n of_o christ_n know_v they_o intrude_v into_o that_o office_n and_o have_v no_o authority_n by_o the_o rule_n of_o christ_n so_o to_o do_v we_o may_v hear_v a_o private_a gift_a christian_a prophecy_n but_o if_o he_o intrude_v without_o a_o lawful_a call_n into_o the_o ministry_n we_o may_v not_o receive_v he_o nor_o approve_v of_o he_o therein_o cyprian_n speech_n be_v common_o note_v that_o plebs_fw-la maxim_n habe●_n potestatem_fw-la vel_fw-la eligendi_fw-la dignos_fw-la sacerdotes_fw-la vel_fw-la indignos_fw-la recusandi_fw-la yet_o the_o occasion_n of_o it_o be_v not_o so_o general_o observe_v which_o be_v this_o plebs_fw-la obsequens_fw-la praeceptis_fw-la dominicis_fw-la deum_fw-la metuens_fw-la à_fw-la peccatore_fw-la proposito_fw-la separare_fw-la se_fw-la debet_fw-la nec_fw-la se_fw-la ad_fw-la sacrilegia_fw-la sacerdotis_fw-la sacrificia_fw-la miscere_fw-la ●um_fw-la ipse_fw-la maxim_n habet_fw-la potestatem_fw-la eligendi_fw-la etc._n etc._n that_o be_v the_o people_n observe_v divine_a precept_n and_o fear_v god_n aught_o to_o separate_v themselves_o from_o a_o wicked_a minister_n neither_o join_v themselves_o to_o the_o sacrifice_n of_o a_o sacrilegious_a priest_n see_v they_o chief_o have_v power_n of_o choose_v worthy_a minister_n and_o reject_v unworthy_a second_o we_o see_v no_o demonstrative_a argument_n that_o the_o priest_n and_o pharisee_n be_v whole_o unable_a for_o the_o work_n of_o those_o time_n as_o these_o we_o speak_v of_o be_v for_o though_o the_o priest_n isaiah_n 56._o 10._o be_v dumb_a dog_n that_o can_v bark_v yet_o it_o seem_v by_o the_o place_n to_o be_v mean_v actual_o rather_o than_o habitual_o through_o their_o slumber_n or_o security_n there_o mention_v not_o tell_v the_o people_n of_o their_o sin_n nor_o warn_v they_o of_o judgement_n rather_o