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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A74872	Letters that passed between Mr. Baxter and Mr. Tombes concerning the dispute.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Tombes, John, 1603?-1676.; Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. Plain Scripture proof of infants church-membership and baptism.	1652 (1652)	Thomason E659_9	11,791	13

LETTERS That passed between Mr. BAXTER AND Mr. TOMBES Concerning the Dispute LONDON Printed in the Year 1652. IT goes against my mind to trouble the Reader with these following Letters between Mr. T. and me But his Relations have made it necessary that it may appear Whether all my endeavour was not to keep off if possibly I could from appearing against him in this Cause in writing nor did I ever desire the Dispute but meerly to shift off writing when his followers drove me on to it and had far rather have been quiet from both but it was beyond my power to attain it without the betraying the truth For I discerned a strong probability of his Design was to have got something from me and then have published his answer to it which he now denyes not as superficially as he did by others or else have forced me to disclaim the contest that so it might be carryed abroad either that I was confuted or that I durst not dispute it After his Followers had earnestly pressed me to write my Arguments and I to put it by had told them I thought verbal disputing more convenient if they must needs have one this following I received from Mr. Tombes For my Reverend and much Honoured Brother Mr. Richard Baxter at Kidderminster these SIR I Perceive by some speech with Philip Munne that you propound a disputing the point in difference between me and you about Infant-baptism in some open way of speech and to have me declare my arguments against it Open dispute by words for a great number of reasons I affect not my affairs and the state of your body and business are likely to make it uncertain and to protract the time my Arguments are to be seen in my Writings This is in effect my plea against it that it is Will-worship because not appointed by God The most expedite and surest way I conceive to bring the controversie to an issue for you in a Syllogism or two written by you to produce what Medium you have to prove a Divine institution of Pedo-baptism which being written may the better be examined verbal conference is less deliberate and more unsatisfactory If you cannot your self write if you shew in a printed Author the best Argument you know for it it may perhaps serve the turn as well I leave it to your self to do as you see good and rest Bewdley Sept. 2. 1649. Your loving Brother and Fellow servant in Christ John Tombes To my Reverend and much valued friend Mr. Tombes Preacher of the Gospel at Bewdley SIR THough your people my neighbours have much room in my affections and I heartily desire their unity and stedfastness yet do not think that I have a mind to take upon me to be their Teacher and to play the Bishop in your Diocess much less to be so rude as to challenge you to a Dispute But some of your people having been severall times solliciting me to do something towards the determining of this controversie I stil told them that I thought a dispute the fittest way but they told me that you refused it The messenger that came on Saturday came on the like errand and before I understood that he came with your consent and privity I told him I would do nothing without a call from more of your people and without your consent The offer I made to him I now make again to you that if to you or your people a debate seem necessary and desireable for I or my people do not desire it much but affect quietness I shall if God enable me spend a day or two in publick conference with you as far as my strength will bear 2 Or if you so absolutely refuse that that there is no hopes of it I offer that if you will preach two Sermons against it and I two for it and so let fall the debate and leave it to the peoples judgment I shall agree to it 3 If you absolutely refuse both these which seem to me the only means if you can contrive how to make a short dispatch and give me sufficient assurance of it upon equall terms before we begin I shall consent to write But to write without such assurance I cannot for these reasons 1 I have ground enough to be confident that it will never be ended while you and I both live except either be convinced which I discern to be unlikely Though for my own part I resolve to yeeld to the most disgraced truth and to search as impartially as I can yet I am somewhat confident that you are in an errour and you are more confident that you are not and so we are likely to remain 2 If I should waste so much time on so small a thing comparatively it would wound my conscience 3 Especially being ignorant in so many far greater which I am bound to study in the first place 4 I am engaged in more work already then I am able to goe through having one Treatise in the Press whereof part is unfinished and another or two at least under hand besides publique preaching which takes up all my time save one day in a week at best which one day I bestow in the aforesaid writings and besides the practice of physick for the poor which their necessity compels me to and which taketh up very much time 5 The weakness of my body is such that I am able to study but 2 or 3 hours in a day besides my sick dayes when I can do nothing 6 I have sweeter and more pleasing work for my thoughts I would not steep them in so bitter a subject as this unpleasing controversie and so lose the rest of the comforts of my life for a world 7 If you and I should write many tedious volums the people would be no more able to discern the truth then they are from what is already written 8 I am afraid of giving my people so ill a president as to strain at a Gnat and swallow a Camel to waste their precious time and thoughts and speeches on such a question while a 100 each of incomparable greater moment are unstudyed and unknown Now to your Letter Whereas you think either writing or referring you to some printed book will be the most expedite and sure way I wonder how you can force your self to think so It is many years since you begun your self to write with Mr. Marshall Mr. Blake c. and you have not yet expedited the business no man yeildeth nor doe you see me any nearer an end then when you begun except weariness cause any partie to give over 9 Besides your body is healthfuller I discern you can better sit at your study 8 hours then I can one 10 And I perceive you content your self more easily then your Reader you marvel that your Books satisfie not and I marvel you should think them satisfactory 11 Many people will think that when they can say you have answered it that an argument is overthrown

with half the books that have been written for Paedobaptism Besides the many in Latine Mr. Cobbet and many other in English are unanswered Yea Mr. Marshall that you profess to deal with chiefly is not yet answered in print And if you have done all this satisfactorily in M. S. whether so many of your people have perused it and perused it so long and seriously as to be able upon comparing them to pass a solid judgment that Mr. Cobbet Mr. Drew Mr. Blake c. are all sufficiently answered by you you best know Nay whether the men that were with me are able to try the writings on both sides so as to pass such a judgment I seriously profess Sir I did peruse the sheets which you vouchsafed me the view of as judiciously as I was able and they did neither satisfie me nor stagger me 2 Nay your Neighbours did confess to me 1 That they had never read Mr. Cobbet and other Books against your judgment 2 Nor were able to judge by comparing together such tedious writings whether you had sufficiently confuted them or no. And when I demanded how then they could expect any satisfaction between your writing and mine they answered that they hoped I would lay down some arguments more briefly Wherefore Sir it is not only my desire that we should be assured of brevitie before we begin but it was to me the desire of your people who confess that in such large discourses they are unable to judge I further propound to you because you can find out no shorter way I am sure a shorter way then what you insist on that is 1 Either to dispute it in private before a dozen of each side 2 Or if there be no other way but writing will be accepted that you will give me the meeting and let us write while we are together Which motions I make not for any advantage against you but only to avoid the inconveniencies of voluminous writing Should we write so large your people will be as unable to make use of it as they are of what is already written Sir I am your unfeigned Friend and unworthy Fellow-labourer Rich. Baxter After this the business slept long and I had hoped was quite over till Mr. T. urging it on the Consciences of his Hearers one of them unhappily asked him in publique Why he would not dispute with me but so press it on them that could not answer him Whereupon he told them he would dispute it with me or any man as they tell me which promise the people laid hold on and prosecuted hinc illae achrymae For Mr. Baxter at Kidderminster these SIR MY Message was this sith I intend the next Lords day to prosecute what I have begun in examining the Hypotheses upon which the Argument from Circumcision for Infant-baptism which is the Paedo-baptists Achilles is built I was willing to invite you to be a hearer and if you judged it meet to oppose what you should think good in a Logick way without Rhetorick That your judgment should be against disputing on the Lords day seems strange who as I have been told would if invited come to preach about that Controversie which I take to be all one with Disputing That which concerns your Weaknesse is sufficient to hinder you I confess yet me thinks if you might do it on Munday you might do it almost with the like safetie on the Lords day at Evening I know not how fit it will be to gather a Congregation to hear us on a week day in publick whereby poor people will be drawn from their work and the Bayliff being now very sick I doubt it will be very disorderly Tuesday being a Holiday as they count it perhaps there will be more of the ruder sort and disorderly and it may carry a shew of celebrating it Thursday I intend for Herefordshire and not to return till Saturday come fortnight Yet if you choose to come over either Munday or Tuesday I shall be ready to justifie my doctrine openly or privately by word or writing as it shall be judged convenient Bewdley Decem. 27. 1649. Sir I am Yours but much more the Truths John Tombes I have no Copy of mine next before this or next after it nor is it materiall But presently upon this was the Dispute and after it I received from him this Letter following For Mr. Richard Baxter Preacher at Kidderminster these SIR FOrasmuch as you said that if the Papists had as good arguments for their doctrine as those were which you brought on Tuesday last for Infant baptism you would be a Papist I earnestly request you to do me so much right or kindness as either to write for me out your self your arguments which you conceive so strong for Infant-baptism or procure them written for me at my charges that I may examine them and that you will let me know what you will do in answer to this motion and within what compass of time Bewdly Jan. 3. 1649. I am Yours in Christ John Tombes SIR I Perceive you are a man so extreamly subject to mistakes that I have small encouragement to deal with you I only said before witness enough that if the Papists had as plain express Scripture for their Religion as that Deut. 29. was for proof that all did enter the Covenant there mentioned I would gladly turn Papist and you most unworthily feign me to say if the Papists had as good arguments as those were which I brought for Infant-baptism in generall For the thing you desire 1 you heard what I said 2 You have not answered my reasons against voluminous disputing 3 I am perswaded by some to publish our Dispute but truly I am loth so far to disgrace you But if I do you will see my arguments 4 Seeing you have most unworthily and unbrotherly traduced me four times in publick whereof three in pulpit I desire you to dispute these four points first 1 Whether any truth must be suspended for peace which Mr. Davis saith you bid him tell me was an untruth 2 Whether the Magistrate be under Christ the Mediator yea as Mediator which you said was of dangerous consequence as I hear 3 Whether the Covenant be made to any but the elect for which you brought my book clean contrary to my whole scope 4 Whether I dealt unbrotherly and unchristianly in not animadverting on your papers Sir I never knew sober Minister use such kind of preaching to traduce his brethren and stuff Sermons with mens names without once speaking or sending to them first about it privately I have a great desire to dispute the foresaid Points with you if you please in writing ex tempore together and shall take your yielding thereto as a great favour and yet your flat duty having first accused me Jan. 3. 1649. Sir I am Your Wel-willer Richard Baxter For the Reverend Mr. Richard Baxter Preacher at Kidderminster these SIR MY mistake of your speech being communicated to your self might be