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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A47189	A true relation of a conference had betwixt G. Keith and T. Upsher, at Colchester the 6th of the fifth month, 1699 the truth of which is attested by three witnesses who took it from their mouths in short-hand and afterwards by joint consent writ it out at length : the question stated at the said conference was whether Thomas Upsher's preaching in the forenoon that faith in Christ, as he was born of the Virgin Mary, and dyed for our sins, &c. was absolutely necessary to salvation, ..., and in the afternoon his preaching that the light within ... is sufficient to salvation is a contradiction : and a brief account of the uncivil and illegal treatment used by some principal Quakers at Colchester and Bristol toward G Keith ... : and a postscript, containing some notes and observations on the assertions of T. Upsher and his brethren, detecting their self-contradictions : and a certificate from Parson Shelton of Colchester, to the truth of the case in debate ... and to the truth of the conference / by George Keith.	Keith, George, 1639?-1716.	1699 (1699)	Wing K222; ESTC R14758	20,930	32

the Door to keep him out by Violence he did very softly expostulate with them and so did some other of his Friends that came from London to countenance him and to be Witnesses of their treatment towards him that it was contrary to their former Profession to use any carnal Resistance let them not henceforth say their Weapons are not carnal for he saw no other Weapons they had to fight with him but their Arms Shoulders and Breasts wherewith they opposed him as he essayed to come in He also and his Friends told them They would have formerly re●koned it Persecution and did so when some of their Preachers came in to oppose the Ministers both of the Church of England and Presbyterians in their publick Meeting-places and met with some resistance on that account But that whi●● the more aggravates the matter against them is that G. Keith told them that stood a Guard to keep him out he came ●ith 〈◊〉 Intention not to speak at that time in their Meeting but only to hear having a real desire to hear how their Ministers did Preach he being inform'd that they did preach better Doctrine than formerly some of them replied Our Ministers are not chang'd in their Doctrine Charles ●ones Father-in law to Will. Penn Junior said concerning G. Keith He is a false Fellow we will not trust him To whom G. Keith modestly replied That is not enough to call me so but he ought to prove it I● I said G. Keith should call thee Thief or Adulterer thou wouldst p●t me to prove it Some of them that were the Guard at the Door asked G. Keith What he was he said He was a Christian They asked again Was he a Quaker he replied He was never proud of the Name Quaker that Name being given to that People is a Na●● of Reproach which now they seem to 〈…〉 and asked them What 〈…〉 of a Friend of Truth which he had 〈…〉 to his Question One 〈…〉 who 〈◊〉 by G. Keith at the Door If he was 〈…〉 which they took for some great 〈…〉 his Friend G. Keith bid them ask him If he did not own himself a Friend of Truth he said Yea he was a Friend of Truth but the Name Quaker he disowned as well as the Errors that were among them G. Keith did further Expostulate with them saying If the Power of God be among you as ye say it is what know ye if ye let me come in but that Power may reach me and bring me out of what ye call my Apostacy and join me again to you Some of them replied Thou dost not believe it thy self G. Keith answered Though I do not believe it yet that Power might make me believe it How many have come into a Christian Assembly Unbelievers and have gone forth Believers am I past all possibility of Conversion But as uncivil as the Quakers his old Friends at Bristol were to him the People called Baptists were as civil who freely at his request granted him liberty at their publick Meeting-place near to the Quaker's Meeting-place and about as capacious to have a Meeting that Day the Meeting-place being called Andrew Gifford's Meeting-place who freely consented and his Son and Friends also that he should have the use of it The Meeting began about the 6th Hour in the Afternoon which was very full of People both of the Church of England and other Dissenters who generally shewed their great satisfaction with what they heard him speak at the said Meeting In the close of the said Meeting he did intimate to the People his purpose of having another Meeting the next Day to begin at the same time in order to detect the great and vile Errors of the most approved Authors among the Quakers particularly of G. W. and W. P. and in order to the clearer detecting them to read large and full Quotations out of their Books as accordingly he did and did intimate his purpose to write to W. P. and other noted Ministers of the People called Quakers at Bristol to desire them to come and if they did think they were able to defend their Cause they should be freely allowed and have a fair Hearing The next Morning being the 24th of that Instant he writ to them to that effect they sent no direct Answer to him but writ a severe Letter to Andrew Gifford and his Son and another Baptist Teacher called Found greatly blaming them for letting him have the use of the House comparing what was to be done there to a Stage-play and G. Keith to be the Actor And among other frivolous and empty Reasons they give why they will not meet him one was that it was offensive to Authority and yet in the same Letter they pro●●er to meet with those Baptists if they will Imbark on his Bottom as if to meet with G. Keith were offensive to Authority but to meet with the Baptists were not whereas neither is offensive to them if discretely managed and if any behave themselves indiscretely they are justly obnoxious to Censure At the time appointed a great Meeting of People assembled both Towns-people and others it being at the beginning of the Fair time where he laid open the Errors particularly of G. Whithead W. Penn and Edw. Burroughs in many Quotations which he did publickly read out of their Books and which another did read the second time standing on a Table in the Peoples audience that the People might be satisfied that the Quotations were all truly read the Quotations were the same as are noted in a late printed Sheet called An Account from Colchester of the Quakers Errors against the very Foundation of the Christian Religion Signed by Nine credible Persons of Colchester two of which are Ministers of the Church of England and two others Non conformist Ministers and some other Quotations were read out of their Books that are mentioned in G. Keith his said Narrative to which as to divers other his Books against his Adversaries they have made no Reply though they most falsly alledge they have replied to all he hath published in Print against them whereas there are at least Six of his late Books in Print to which they have made not one Line of Reply as his 2d and 3d Narratives his Book answering their Arguments against Baptism and the Supper the Deism of W. Penn and his Brethren in answer to his Discourse of the general Rule of Faith and Practice and his late Book called Some of the many Fallacies of W. Penn c. In his Paper called Gospel Truths c. and his larger and shorter Chatechisms all which do plainly detect and refute their vile and gross Errors and Heresies prejudic●● and destructive to Christianity And here I give the Reader to understand how as I was civilly treated and respected by sober People both of the Church of England 〈…〉 at Colchester and at Bristol so I found the ●●ke 〈…〉 Respect generally in all other places where I travelled 〈…〉 Summer and

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved Now I say this is the absolutely necessary terms of Salvation and if there be no such thing in the Heathen to teach them this and seeing th●re is no such Manifestation in the Gentile Heathen World that discovers or teacheth this then there is no Manifestation in them sufficient to Salvation T. U. He hath not proved that the Manifestation of God and Christ in his Light to all Men doth not give nor can give to Man that which is necessary to Salvation because he cannot bring one word of absolute necessity or that saith after this manner that without this and this kind of knowledge they cannot be saved G. K. The Light within teache them and all Men even the Heathens that I must not commit Murther Adultery nor be Drunk c. I find in Scripture as positively Faith in Christ without us required to remission of Sin and eternal Salvation as obedience to the Light within us 1 Cor. 1. 21. T. U. I should be loath to be so uncharitable to the poor Heathens which live up to their Light as G. Keith is G. K. I am no more uncharitable to the Heathen than you or any Man I dare not conclude that any of the Heathens that live vertuously are damned What is wanting to Heathens in respect to the outward God may make up to them in an inward extraordinary Manifestation What do we know what God may reveal to them in a dying Hour T. U. I never did declare that the Light within without the outward Manifestation of Christ is sufficient for Salvation G. K. Whither Tho. did not speak to this purpose That the Light within without Faith in Christ is sufficient for Salvation I apprehend I have proved by his Paraphrases on those Scriptures that he brought from those Scriptures say I Tho. did say That this Light or this inward Manifestation is enough for the Salvation of Man then say I if one thing be enough there needs not two If this be enough then there is no need of that Faith in Christ that he mention'd in the Morning which is a Contradiction In the Conclusion divers of T. Upsher's Friends gave this Consession and so did he viz. It is necessary to Salvation to believe in Jesus Christ that was born of the Virgin Mary and was Crucified without the Gates of Jerasalem and is ascended into Heaven and is there in Glory and from thence will come without us at the end of the World this we acknowledge to be our absolute Belief and that he is ourwardly to come in a glorified Body This they owned as necessary to believe to those that live in the Christian World Parson Shelton told them This plainly did contradict the Doctrine in their Friends Books however he was glad of this their Confession now We having carefully compared and thoroughly examined do affirm this to be a true Copy of the Conference between G. Keith and T. Upsher the 6th of July 1699. Witness our Hands Edw. Brasier Tho. Streaton Arthur Winsley Junior This 6th of July was the 5th Day of the Week next to that 1st Day wherein G. Keith had charged T. Vpsher with Contradiction A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF THE Uncivil TREATMENT Vused by some principal Quakers at Colchester and Bristol towards G. Keith and some other material Passages in his Travelling through several places in the Country this and the former Summer THE occasion of the above mentioned Conference the true Relation whereof is above given was That whereas G. Keith at the publick Meeting-House of the People called Quakers at Colchester the Second of the First Month 1699 in the Afternoon had affirmed That T. Vpsher had contradicted in the Afternoon what he had Preached in the Forenoon the which T. Vpsher denied and put G. Keith to prove it whereupon it was mutually agreed by them both to debate it before Witnesses on both sides on the 6th of that Instant following as was accordingly done The Moderators chosen to regulate the Debate were William Shelton a Minister of the Church of England in Colchester and Samuel Rider a Presbyterian there But it is sit the Readers should be further informed of some other Particulars relating to the Difference betwixt T. Vpsher and his Friends at Colchester and G. Keith and some of his Friends there one of which is That whereas T. Vpsher did offer a Conference with G. Keith in order to defend his Doctrine from being a Contradiction G. Keith did readily accept it on the Condition that he would agree to debate it with him before Witnesses whether T. Vpsher had done justly and Christianly at a Meeting in Great Staten in Huntingtonshire in the Month called August 1698. to pronounce Woes and Curses in the Name of the Lord against G. Keith and all that adhered to him that were there present and came to hear him which were many reckoned in the U●ity with T. Vpsher and his Friends saying God would confound destroy and dash to pieces both him and them which he said he was moved by the Lord so to affirm as many are ready to witness if he deny it but this Condition T. Vpsher would by no means agree unto Another is that whereas G. Keith had been accused at the said Meeting at Great Staten in Huntingtonshire by T. Vpsher that he was an Apostate and had wronged and perverted Friends Books in his printed Narratives and that he offered to prove it against him providing G. Keith would begin to dispute with him the next day G. Keith replied He was very desirous to hold the Debate with him but it was well known to divers there present he could not begin any such Meeting for Debate next Day being under an Engagement to be at a Meeting at Bedford next First Day which was the Day following but he was ready to engage with him the Third Day following which T. Vpsher by no means would yield unto alledging for his Excuse the great need he had to be at home which to many appeared fallacious because he had before proffered to hold the Dispute with G. Keith for two Weeks together if he would begin next Day R. Bridgeman a Friend at Huntington did propose to have the Meeting for the Debate begin next Day and he would undertake in defence of G. Keith that he had not wronged the Friends Books in his said Narratives and proffered to hold a Dispute with T. Vpsher on that account until G. Keith should have time to return to manage the Dispute by himself but this T. Vpsher would not agree unto Some few Days after in the 6th Month called August 1698. G. Keith came to Colchester and in the publick Meeting of the Friends there put T. Vpsher in mind of his former promise to ingage in Dispute with G. Keith in order to prove him an Apostate and a perverter of Friends

this as at Bedford Huntington 〈…〉 bridge and divers other places 〈…〉 this present Summer having travelled through the same places again and had considerable Meetings at them all either in Licensed Houses or such as by the favour of the Magistrates of the place were allowed and in divers other places where I had not had Meetings before as at Cogshel in Essex at Chippenham in Wilishire at the Devises at Caln at Malebury at Lambourn Woodlands at Wantage at Oxford at Reading in all which places where I had Meetings many of which were very considerable for number of sober discreet and well affected People I met with great Civility Kindness and Respect for my Testimony to the great Truths of the Gospel and against the great and vile Errors that abound among the People called Quakers which their Leaders have drawn them into though in divers places above mentioned few of the People called Quakers came to hear me and in some of them not one so far as I could hear I generally sent to them to come and shew before the People what they had against me but they generally fled before me and would not so much as appear to reason the Case with me One at Caln in Wiltshire in a great Meeting which was in a large Barn on a First Day the last of the Month called July called John Savage a Quaker while I was speaking said I spoke by the Spirit of the Devil because I was proving That the Light that is common to all Mankind and is in Heathens was not the Gospel that Paul preached but another I desired him not to interrupt me but let me alone till I had done and then I would answer to what he would object but he said nothing to me after I had done At Huntington and Ives also I met with some Interruption but none of them would come to any fair Debate with me some of their Ministry at Ives calling me Judas and Demas but when I put them to prove it and offered to shew that Character did not belong to me but to some of them they would not reason the case with me One of the chief Men among the Quakers in that Town saying That place was for Preaching but not for Dispute and as by his means I had got liberty to speak there for which I thanked him but he would not suffer me to dispute I did expostulate the case with him Why he would be less fair than the Jews who not only suffered Paul to Preach but to Dispute in their Synagogues But the greatest openn●e● 〈◊〉 reception among any of my former Friends called Quakers I found was in divers Country places in Huntingtonshire and thereabouts who met in divers places on purpose to hear me and appointed several Meetings for me at several places both this and the former Summer whither they came to hear me and declared their satisfaction with my Testimony and my opposition to the great Errors among the Quakers and they have declared that it is their Sense That there is great need of a Reformation in Doctrine among the said People and that the great Errors contained in the Books of their great Authors ought to be disowned and retracted otherwise a separation will necessarily follow whereof Margaret Everard a Speaker among them has given a plain and Christian acknowledgment in her printed Epistle to them and particularly to the Ministers among them A POSTSCRIPT TO THE Impartial READERS Containing some Notes and Observations on the Assertions of T. Upsher and his Brethren discovering their Self-Contradictions THE Impartial Readers are desired to compare the several Assertions of T. Vpsher here one with another and also with the many Assertions of G. Whithead W. Penn and others of the most approved Writers among the People called Quakers contained in their Books as most faithfully quoted in G. Keith's three printed Narratives and in the late printed Sheet called Some Account from Colchester of the Quakers Errors against the very foundation of the Christian Religion c. and I doubt not but it will evidently appear to them that T. Vpsher hath both foully contradicted himself and also his said Brethren And especially I desire the Readers to take notice of this one Instance of T. V's Self-contradiction in p. 8. of the printed Copy ad finem he grants that there is universally in Men both Heathens and Christians such a Grace or Manifestation of Christ as can give them a discovery of that that is necessary to Salvation for which he grants he quoted Titus 2. 10 11. Isa 49. 6. John 1. 9. and divers other Scriptures and this is the known Principle of G. Whithead W. Penn and most of the greatest Authors among the Quakers and yet in contradiction both to himself and them he hath told us see pag. 10. of the printed Relation he never did declare That the Light within without the outward Manifestation of Christ is sufficient for Salvation And yet as in the same pag. 10. he did plead that Heathens are saved who live up to their Light and yet have no K●owledge or Faith of Christ's outward Manifestation Again pray let the Reader well consider this Assertion of T. V. That he never declared that 〈◊〉 Light within without the outward Manifestation was sufficient to Salvation and his and his Brethren of Colchester their Assertion as in pag. 11. that i● is their absolute Belief That Faith in Christ as he did outwardly come c. and was Crucified and as he is outwardly to come in a glorified Body is necessary to their Salvation and compare it with G. Whithead his Assertion in his late Antidote against the Venom of the Snake p. 28. where he plainly affirmeth That the Quakers are offended with G. K. for undervaluing the Light within and saying it is not sufficient to Salvation or not sufficient without something else That something else he confesseth is according to G. K. Christ's outward Manifestation and coming in the Flesh and the Doctrine and Faith of it without which G. K. hath affirmed the Light within either Heathen or Christian is not sufficient to Salvation for which Assertion of his not only G. Whithead W. Penn and generally the most approved Writers and Preachers among the Quakers but also T. Vpsher and most of his Brethren at Colchester John Rallet and a few more at Colchester excepted who own G. K's Doctrine to be sound have judged him to be an Apostate and do still so judge him this being the chief Controversie betwixt them and him viz. Whether the Light within be sufficient to Salvation without Christ's outward Manifestation and coming in the Flesh his Death and Sufferings and the Doctrine and Faith of it which are that something else without which no Light in Men is sufficient to Salvation And yet now T. V. and these his Colchester Brethren by their late solemn Confession have declared themselves to be of the same Faith in the case with G. K. so that by undeniable