part of Christes institution Harding The .70 vntruth This is not my argument Dering Here Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton doe not well accorde For Maister Harding skippeth one vntruth concerning the number of communicants Replie fo 20. diuis 3. which maister Stapleton maketh the .22 vntruth And least we should thinke it little worth he maketh the same againe the .23 vntruth and for a full conclusion shutteth also the .24 vntruth in it Yea and though it stand here for .3 vntruthes yet as if al they were not sufficient he made it once afore the .19 vntruth So much maister Stapleton maketh of one vntruth which maister Harding accounteth not worth numbring But the matter is not great he loseth nothing here that he will not finde in an other place As touching this vntruth these are M. Hardings verie wordes Concerning the number of communicants in one place that they iangle so much of it is no part of Christes institution For Christ ordeined the sacrament after consecration c. Nowe turne these wordes in forme of argument and they stand euen as maister Iuel placeth them Christ did ordeine the sacrament after consecration c. ergo the number of communicants is no part of Christes institution If these be Maister Hardings owne wordes as sée the booke and thou thy selfe shalt iudge thou canst not be so simple but thou must néedes sée this argument is no worse than himselfe hath made it But bicause in this place he also fashioneth one and in great confidence of his owne cunning writeth in the Margent of his booke an argument proponed to M. Iuell to be considered I will doe him no wrong in chaunging his woords but for that loue which I haue to M. Iuels profession in his behalfe I will as I can consider of it after his owne making But first I must aduertise thée before he setteth vp his mishapen building he layeth the foundation of an ill fauored stomacke and saith by M. Iuel that it is easie for a scoffer to scoffe at arguments framed of his owne scoffing head And so it is easie for an euill speaker in defence of his wicked Doctrine to reporte vnchristianly of Gods minister where suche vnquiet passions do leade away vnderstanding It may be he may finde fauorers but where the God of peace hath engraffed more moderation truthe shall not be preiudiced with suche vntrue behauior Muche other frothe ensueth in great plentie before we come to the proposed reason euen as a rotten wound defileth many clothes that are about it but let it be troden out with silence that cannot be remembred without muche loth somnesse At the last he commeth to his argument after his owne graue considerations thus it is fourmed What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution The number of Communicants in one place is beside these thrée Ergo the number in one place is no parte of Christes institution Of this argument M. Harding boasteth much and in any case will haue M. Iuel yelde vnto the Conclusion But softe M. Harding extorcion is no conclusion If you will enforce a graunt whether it be made or no you can by that be neuer the neare your purpose Therefore for as muche as you haue set forthe your argument as you say to be considered you séeme very vnconstant so soone againe to claime the concâ—usion But you sâ—y if we wil not yelde vnto the reason we must denie the Minor or second proposition True it is the Minor is false but we are not yet come at it The Maior that you thinke so sure is made of false and vnlawfull stuffing as by this consideration that you require shall well appeare The proposition is this What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution first this is false and teacheth wicked doctrine For preaching out of the Lords death vntill he come is a parte of Christes institution And our sauiour biddeth do this in the remembraunce of me that is with due celebration of all my benefits bestowed vpon mankind which must then be preached vnto the people And if it be not so done then Christes institution notw tstanding M. Hardings argument is flatly broken Nowe as this preaching out the Lords death is of Christes institution and yet not rehersed in this first proposition wherby this prosition is shewed false so those other things which are rehersed in it as M. Harding meaneth them are none of them of Christes institution By coÌ„secration he meaneth the pronouÌ„cing of these words this is my body which must be done as y e Masse boke straightly chargeth bothe secretely and with one breath By oblation he meaneth Christes reall body to be offred vp vnto the father By Participation he meaneth that the priest alone may take it at the Altare and no one of these is of Christes institution Nay they all are contrary vnto it So that this proposition wheron he groundeth his argumeÌ„t wanteth somewhat and therefore is not true that which it hath is altogether corrupt and therefore it containeth muche pernicious doctrine First as touching Consecration S. Augustine saith as is alleaged in the .56 vntruth y â— it is wrought verbo fidei by the worde of faith which we preache So saithe Iustinus martir that it is sanctified per verbum precationis gratiarum actionis by the word of prayer and thankes giuing Irenaeus saith quando mixtus calix fractus panis percipit verbum Dei fit Eucharistia corporis sanguinis Christi when the cuppe mingled with wine and water and the bread being broken hath the preaching of the woord of God ioyned vnto it then it is the Eucharist and this was the only Consecration .200 yeres after Christ neither any where any other mentioned except in M. Hardings Decretal Epistles which neither are of credite nor yet teach good religion This same maner of Consecration is taught vs by Cyprian Dyonisius Alexandrinus Ambrose Augustine and suche other as liued within the first .600 yeares after Christ. Although I graunt as appeareth by diuers recordes many solemnities of the Masse were farre spread through superstition yet this exacte kinde of close Consecration is muche yonger This Oblation likewise as it was then vnknowne so now it is of all Christians to be detested that a mortall man should offer vp the immortall God as I haue already shewed in the Epistle For Participation bicause maister Harding can not proue his Priuate Masse within the sixe hundreth yeares and the woord doeth enforce that it is no Participation except there be a number to take their partes I thinke it appeareth sufficiently that in a Popishe Masse they haue no manner Participation or Communion so we sée this Maior is all together false before we come at the Minor Now if we will further examine the Minor we shall finde it false also altogither without salte or sauor for thus it is in effecte
right vse of the sacraments then haue they nothing in them but Gods owne ordinance For we maye not intermeddle our own constitutions w t Gods coÌ„maundement as the prophet doth likewise witnesse of the sacrifice For if we doo follow our owne wayes he that killeth a bullocke is as if he slew a man he that sacrificeth a shéepe as if he cut a dogs necke he that offreth an oblation as if he offred swynes bloode he that remembreth incense as if he dyd blesse an Idoll so much doth God hate to haue our deuises ioyned with his wisedome And who knoweth not how the soÌ„nes of Aaron for offring strange fyre were miraculously consumed from heauen Se nowe whether the Romish sacramentes are not in like sort defiled I speake not of the huge multitude which they haue made on their own head The two sacraments of the bodye of Christ and of Baptisme howe doe they vse them As Christ dyd Woulde God they did so they woulde returne with the lost sonne into the lap of the heauenly father How then do they vse them The sacraments them selues they haue prophaned with giuing them to vnméete creatures the coÌ„munion bread vnto dead men Baptisme vnto Bels and Ships and restraine them from fyt persons as the sacrament of Christes bloode from the Laytie The maner of Christes institution they haue all togither peruerted For where as Mathevv Marke Luke Paule doe witnesse that Christ onelye tooke blessed brake and deliuered they like not thys simplicitye they haue inuented new guises Concerning his apparell first he putteth on much masking attire as if he should go somewhether a mumming not as though he should go to serue God His body sometyme must bende forwarde sometyme be vpright sometyme turne rounde about sometyme but the halfe turne sometyme bende ouer the aultare sometyme not touch it His handes sometyme hée layeth downe sometyme hée lifteth them vp sometyme he ioyneth them flat togither sometyme one finger with an other somtyme he rubbeth his hole handes beyond the chalice least any crummes should stick on them somtime he rubbeth but his fingers some tyme he toucheth the bread sometyme the aultare his eyes sometyme hée lifteth vppe somtyme he casteth them downe somtyme he must looke very demurely sometyme after the common manner sometyme he must crosse his face sometyme bende downe his heade his armes sometyme he must holde them vp a crosse sometyme with his handes togither he must pray sometyme for himselfe sometyme for his friendes sometyme for his parishoners sometyme for all men sometyme for no mothen are present his wordes sometyme a lowde somtyme secret Sometime the Clarke alone must aunswere sometyme the Quire He speaketh sometime at libertie sometime certaine woordes with one breath Sometimes he kisseth the aultar on the right hand somtime in the middest But with the Cake and the Chalice especiallye he hath most straunge diuises His Chalice must sometime stand still in the middest of the aultar sometime it is a little lifted vp sometime it is couered with the patin sometime with a clout sometime he maketh three crosses on the Cup and Cake togither sometime seuerally on eche of them Sometime he holdeth the Chalice aright sometime with his sore fingers and thumbes fast ioyned togither Sometime he maketh .v. crosses togither one quite beyond the Chalice an other before it on â—che side an other and the fift on the bottome Sometime he crosseth it thrise within where the wine is Sometime the Deacon holdes the couer in his hand and stretcheth his arme out as farre as he can and vpon payne of presumption the Priest may not touch it till it be giuen him Sometime the Priest taketh it doth kisse it Somtime he toucheth his eyes somtime he crosseth his heade with it somtyme he laieth it downe Likewise the Cake somtime is on the Chalice somtime before it somtime he crosseth it sometime he lifteth it somtime he taketh two péeces of it and holdeth them in his left hande and the third in his right hande Sometimes he taketh one péece of it and dippes it in the Chalice sometime hee taketh an other péece and maketh a crosse before his mouth and when his pastime is done sometime he hangeth it vp in a boxe All these such other toyes they teach in the canon of their Masse and what christian hart woulde not bléede to sée Gods mysteries so impurely handled yet reade the booke thou shalt sée moe Monsters then these There are woordes which thou must not speake but first the one half theÌ„ make a crosse after speake out the rest If the worde be of moe then two syllables yet thou art taught how to vtter it in benedixit thou must first say be then a crosse after that nedixit in calicem first ca then after a crosse licem in immaculatam first immacu then a crosse then latam Diuers such wordes they doo crossecut what shall we say to it but as S. Paul saith Cauete canes cauete concisionem cauete malos operarios Beware of dogs beware of cutting beware of euill labourers I passe ouer for breuity diuers moe contrarieties betwene our sauiour Christes institution and their doing The godly and faithfull man shall sone perceiue them And thus much of the eucharist Concerning baptisme Iohn dyd baptise in Iordan Philip by the way side no coniurings or incantacions before vsed and our sauiour saith ite in vniuersum mundum c. Goo in to the whole world and baptise them in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghost But thys plaine doing of our Sauiour Christ doth not like their satanized imaginations They must haue salt oyle creame spittle breathing sensing crossings candle droppings hallowings of the Funt putting their hands in the water the Infant must holde the taper and then he that worst maye doth holde the candell and such other iuglings they haue that I can not rehearse Which doings being compared with the institution of the Lord God they shall appeare nothing else but an apish mocking of his eternall wisdome Which being duelye considered their church of Rome shalbe knowen for a dungeon of Iniquity or as Maister Harding tearmed hir a sincke of Sodome and a forge of the Deuils mysteries We contemne therfore these vyle reproches against the B. of Sarisbury Luther Zuinglius Galuin Peter Martir Beza and such other and pray vnto the liuing Lord if it be his good will and pleasure to mollifye the hartes of our enimyes Harding ¶ Now I come vnto your other point wherwith as with a most haynous crime you charge me which is my departing from your Cospel as you say This you obiect bitterly vnto me not onelye in your Aunswere to my Preface but also in very many places of your Replie and specially in your Conclusion ctc. Dering You gesse very oft at Maister Iuells meaning yet hitherto to haue you not once gessed charitablye But the God of loue
other place whatsoeuer is set before you eate it and aske no question for conscience sake These sayings cannot stande with Maister Hardings religion about such questions how the word of God might agrée with it selfe Those busye heades might haue ben better occupied then in mouing such doubtes as a Christian heart adhorreth to remember But if they had ben so occupyed in Gods most holy euangelies as they were in Peter Lumberdes fancies they woulde soone haue turned ouer these winde shaken opinions Now while Maister Hardings friendes shal muse how these sayinges may agrée I will shewe thée godly reader how the Eucharist hath no vse except it be receiued Consecrate while they will crosse round about the bread breath ouer it at their pleasure looke demurely as they can intend what they list except the breade be receiued no maner conueyaunce can bring Christes presence Somewhat for proufe of this maye appeare by the vsage of the pascall Lambe and of Manna Of the lambe nothing might be reserued til the morning what did remaine should be burnt with fire Therfore we may coniecture it should not be lawfull to reserue the sacrament So likewise of Manna nothing might be reserued till morning if ought were had it was turned into wormes and stanke These being both figures of our sacrament the coniecture is not euill to thinke lykewise the Eucharist might not be reserued then the case were plaine it had no vertue but being receiued Howe be it I wyll not force any suche comparisons God doth lighten whom it pleaseth him The scriptures doe other where testifie plentifullye this that we teache First the Eucharist is to vs as the peace offerings among the Iewes which was a sacrifice or thanks giuing offered for peace or prosperitie and as they that made any such offering must doe it before the doore of the Tabernacle of the congregation c so Aarons sonnes sprinckled the bloude about the aultar otherwise it had bene no peace offering So we in the Eucharist must come to the Congregation gyue thankes and prayses vnto God preache out the death of hys sonne Christ and eate and drink of that heauenly mysteries or els it is not the Eucharist And the church naming this sacrament Eucharistia hath well declared that without open thankes-geuing there is no suche sacrament But who can doubt any whyt of thys matter that readeth the woordes of our sauiour Christ reported by S. Iohn or the other Euangelists and S. Paule Labour for the meate sayth Christ that the sonne of man shall giue vnto you He sayth not for the meate which is hanged vp in the Pixe And the people make their aunswere Lord giue vs euermore of this bread Againe Christ sayth The breade which I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world Ther is then no benefite where this bread is not giuen and in this chapter it is often repeated that we must eate this flesh or els we haue no lyfe in vs. Yet in all this place nor in any place of scripture any one word is found y â— commendeth either mencioneth this sacrameÌ„t without the vse of it So if we wil apply this .6 chap. of Iohn to the sacrament as M. Harding in anye wyse will doe we sée how there is no grace no vertue in it if it be not vsed Concerning the woordes of this sacrament reported by the other Euangelistes and by saint Paule they are very plain Take and eate thys is my bodye saye they and of the Cup Drinke ye all of this thys is my bloude c. But by M. Hardings doctrine the holye ghost might haue spoken in this sorte Looke all vpon this and worship it this is my body And of the cup Drinke none of you of this yet it is my bloud Such is the sacriledge of that wicked masse in doing to vndoe that our Sauiour hath saide But here I cannot a little wonder at them In their owne inuentions they haue placed in their Masse these words accipite manducate and some thinke they are very requisite to transsubstanciation yet when they vtter them they meane nothing lesse than that any other but them selues should take part They prepare but a litle cake and a draught of wyne to make sporte with They intende not to communicate with other yet they saye alway take and eate A lye is very euill in any maner doing but in the seruice of God it is very detestable God when he will turne their hartes Here we se concerning this sacrament Christ commaunded nothing but that we shoulde in a holy company eate and drinke in remembrauncâ— of his death and passion But how turneth the Pope our sauiours commaundement He careth neither for eating nor drinking but when he goeth forth he setteth vp his sacrament vpon a white horse backe and men of eche syde with tapers and litle belles and so teacheth the horse that he will go to the aultare and there knéele vpon his knées till his Maisters god be taken downe Thus will the Pope teach horses to worship God euen as somtyme the Leuites woulde cary the Arke in a newe carte when they brought it out of the house of Aminadab For neyther haue we any one word to cary about the sacrament neyther had they of the carte And this is a greate misery that hauing no warrant for our Marchandise our candels our sensors our vestiments our oyle boxes our corporasse our porâ—uisse and sixe hundred thousandes suche other yet we make no account of them as though they pleased God If any thing séeme somewhat doubtfull then we turne vs to Doctors to councels to decrees to scholemen and to the holy closet of the Popes owne brest as thoughe Gods worde were not our wisedome and our vnderstanding in the sight of all people But God be thanked for his owne ordinaunces and lawes that are so righteous Now to the next marke that Maister Harding coulde neuer shoote at and this marke hath a great many péeces and such as is not easly discerned which is the greatest so I knowe not certainelye wher at to measure The first péece is this there is no difference betwixt the Priest and the people in the mystery of the sacrifice But what meaneth Maister Harding to finde the marke him selfe and then refuse to shoote at it Would he haue vs thinke this were Maister Iuels marke He saith no such thing Sure M. Harding hath verye straunge artillery His bow is made of slaunders and it will shoote nothing else but lies He can get nothing with cunning therfore he would saue him selfe by facing This stode them in good stede in the disputations at Oxford wher their friends wer moderators but in a booke that is written to all men this shift is shameles Let vs sée what saith M. Iuell of this marke Not one word Why doth Maister Harding reporte it He is disposed to lye But whervpon doth he gather it Forsoth out of Bernard
it had neuer bene séene These hastie vntruthes haue yet little spéedy successe Let vs se the residue The. B. of Saris. That they were written in Greeke and not in Latine that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare and more and no man misse them Harding The .20 vntruth They were knowne to the fathers Dering It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth which common sense doth teach vs had no falshoode in it to persue it that is great ouersight but to make two of it that is extréeme follie They were kept in secrecie sayth Maister Iuell these 1500 yeares and this is true they were not openly knowne as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse therefore they were secrete and how could they haue béene secrete except some had hid them but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole They were not knowne saith he in these countries Maister Iuell himselfe as is aforesaide doth alleage Leo and Gelasius both Bishops of Rome and Bessarion a cardinall who all condemne the booke Reade the Replie good reader and thou shalt find it true and how could they haue done it if they had neuer séene the booke This wrangling this lying thys wicked Reioinder were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it it should not haue one worde aunswered But God deliuer vs from such contagious poison The B. of Saris. Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement as the disputation of Peter and Appion which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers neyther containe they pure and apostolicall doctrine Harding The .21 vntruth Saint Ierom is falsified Dering It is reported of Brutus that he was woont to say he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame hath prepared himself when it pleaseth him to denie any thing The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement is that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure and apostolicall It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding Saint Ierom is falsified If Brutus were now aliue peraduenture M. Harding might be commended But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vs not to beléeue euery spirite euery bold asseueration must not stand for true Let vs sée what Ierom himself sayth and we shall iudge the better whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus he writeth The olde writers haue quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie doth reproue them Now except Maister Harding will say that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers and catholike fathers or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine Why will he not haue his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall whom the old fathers reiect and Eusebius reproueth The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant or euill disposed Harding The .22 vntruth Dering Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom and Eusebius where Maister Iuel saith Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes saith first Saint Ierom sayth it not next Eusebius sayth it not thirdly they say it not Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians for this great talke of vntruthes little reason in shewing them he should surely haue bene accounted for a babler If we graunt that his sayings are true yet are these thre but one vntruth and that not made by M. Iuell but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him he will not vnderstand neither the common phrase of speaking nor what is ment by plaine sayings Again when it pleaseth him he will vse more Logicke then either is true or honest Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding The. B. of Saris. Clement is condemned by Gelasius Harding The .23 vntruth It is not condemned by him Dering Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse He denieth he careth not what Nothing shall want a bold asseueration if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth but let vs not trust him before we trie him so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth His wordes are thus reported by Gracian We haue thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge and ought to be auoyded of catholike people First the councell holden at Ariminum gathered by Constantine the Emperour the sonne of Constantinus by meane of Taurus lieutenant from thenceforth and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle bearing y e name of Clement Eight bookes are secrete vnlawfull writings Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende It goeth vnder the name of Clement so doth that which Gelasius condemneth It contayneth .viii. bookes and so doth that They are accoūted Apocrypha secret writings and so are the other Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke but yet vnder this title that it should be called the Iournall of Clement And to conclude those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine and so doth this Clement And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode Well may those erre that néedes will be deceyued But among the louers of truth such vntruthes will be very odious The B. of Saris. Abdias was conuersant with Christ. Harding The .24 vntruth I say not he was conuersant with Christ. Dering Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes when he layth them altogither euen as they are written If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning such error deserueth verye little blame But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause let vs examine all that is reproued and yéelde vnto the vtmost that may appéere faultie I say not saith he that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings at which he himselfe was present of this to say he was conuersant with Christ is scarce worth the fault finding Yet maister Harding sayth stifly he onely sawe Christ in the flesh he was not conuersaunt with him By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him The B. of Saris. Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias Harding The .25 vntruth Lazius sayth not so Dering Here is first a very graue note in a weighty
matter that M. Iuell nameth him Zazius in steede of Lazius as who say that euery man must not néedes knowe Wolfangus Lazius that hath séene Abdias False printing can not blame the author where wrangling is not in place Lazius sayth eyther Saint Luke borrowed hole stories of Abdias or Abdias of S. Luke By this it appeareth Lazius is well content if you thinke S. Luke borrowed his writing of him Nowe for the more contempt of so vaine and fonde a saying Maister Iuell may well report his wordes absolutelye and ought not for that to bée blamed with vntruth Yet let vs admit that Lazius saying were sufferable I aske of M. Harding how a disiunctiue proposition may be improued without affirming or denying one certaine part Besides this it is no newes to Wolfangus Lazius to speake sometime at randome when he should speake truth He hath other wheres many absurdities and some both slaunderous and odious to rehearse ywis by good account a man may easily finde more lyes in his bookes than frier Furius can chalenge in Sleydaines commentaries but let them go For this present matter Maister Iuell eyther in contempt of this vaine imagination or for the more appearaunce of so great an absurdity without any suspicion of vntrue dealing may before all good men report these wordes as he doth The. B. of Saris. He maketh many shamelesse lyes and sayth that he was present with Christ and at most part of the Apostles doings Harding The .26 vntruth He sayth not so Dering If we marke M. Iuels wordes well we shall sufficientlye be forewarned As touching these vntruthes he maketh saith Maister Iuell many shamelesse lyes and sayth he was present at the Apostles doings Here maister Harding can challenge no vntruth concerning Abdias shamelesse lying but for his presence at the most of the Apostles doing that saith he is nothing so Let vs take that which by silence M. Harding confesseth and then if Abdias haue many shamelesse lyes how can he further Maister Hardings Masse or if he haue not why is it not noted for an vntruth By like he thought that by speaking nothing of Abdias lies they might be forgotten and by calling them to tryall Abdias should be quite shamed For my part I meane not to meddle with them they are mo in number then in short time may be recited Onely I aduertise thée to reade the booke due tryall shall be surest iudge As touching this present vntruth whether he were cōuersant with the Apostles or no it maketh no great matter what skilleth it what he was or what time he liued It is smale credit to Esopes fables that the author liued in king Croesus dayes Yet for maister Hardings pleasure let vs sée this vntruth He sayth not sayth maister Harding that he was present at most of the Apostles doings I aunswere that it is not necessary to be very scrupulous in reporting of Abdias his wordes it is more then he deserueth if we vouchsafe to recite his meaning Thus much maister Harding and Abdias do say that he was the Apostles scholer that he was present at the death of Saint Andrew and Saint Thomas at the doings of Simon and Iude which were all Apostles and of all this is it much if we say that he was present at the most of the Apostles doinges Such is this Abdias He hath deserued yll maister Hardings friendship His credite is so little that he can not further hys priuate Masse His doings are so vnreasonable that they can not be defended without shame But the prouerbe is verified like will to like An ill cause hath most ground in vnsufficient witnesse and an ill patrone is best content with vnable authoritie The. B. of Saris. It may be gathered by Saint Augustine in sundrie places that some part of this booke was written by certaine heritikes called the Manichees Harding The .27 vntruth Saint Augustine hath no such thing of Abdias Dering This vntruth is little worth and soone aunswered It may be gathered sayth Maister Iuell But saint Augustine speaketh not of Abdias saith M. Harding It is true in déede saint Augustine doth not name him for if he did there neded thē no gathering The thing were plaine It is an easie thing to find many vntruthes if we make our aduersary to say what wée list Whether Augustine meane of Abdias or no that shall bée séene in y e next vntruth Here is nothing affirmed but that he may séeme to meane him that this may be gathered M. Har. denieth not That Abdias is ment it must appeare by the next vntruth So either maister Harding maketh two vntruthes of one as his maner is or here speaketh nothing to the purpose as he commonly vseth The B. of Saris. For he reporteth the fables of Saint Thomas of Saint Mathew of Saint Andrew of the Lyon that slue the man that had striken Saint Thomas of the dog that brought the same mans hande to the table of Maximilla wife vnto Egis and other like tales euen in such order as they be set foorth by this Abdias Harding The .28 vntruth Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevve The .29 vntruth He nameth not Andrevv The .30 vntru He speaketh not of Maximilla vvhich Abdias ment Dering M. Hardings vntruthes amount not yet to his mind Therfore he thinketh it not amisse to quote them a little faster vpō which aduice he maketh thrée in one periode he might as wel haue sayde S. Augustine mentioneth not these stories and so haue made but one saue that he loueth not such plaine dealing But the matter is not great as short an aunswere will serue for all as if they had béene but one Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevv nor Andrevv Marke good reader this vntruth Maister Iuell sayth Saint Augustine telleth the tales of Mathevv and Andrevv and so he doth let the booke be the iudge Maister Harding sayth S. Augustine nameth them not neyther doth maister Iuell saye he nameth them take away this much wrangling and here is no vntruth at all But this we haue to note by the way for the better credite of maister Hardings Abdias that Saint Augustine condemneth those tales for lyes which Abdias telleth for a certaine truth Concerning y e tale of Maximilla wife to Aeges which maister Harding saith is not reported in the same sort by Abdias as it is by Saint Augustine first we must knowe both Augustine and Abdias meane the same woman as shall appeare in y e .31 vntruth Then Augustine speaketh of hir as of a foolish vaine tale Abdias speaketh of hir doings as of true and weightie stories Thus it appeareth though Saint Augustine doe not name the parties yet he agréeth in the tales and when this shall be knowne the .27 vntruth shall be iustified That it may be gathered Saint Augustine meaneth of Abdias these thre latter vntruthes which are but the proufe of Maister Iuels coniectture shall appeare so good that before the true christian reader the quoting of
them shall séeme but wrangling and this new counterfeit Abdias shall be reiected as a teller of dreames and a lying wryter And for our great comfort god will bring to passe that when it shall be knowne to the indifferent reader that Papistrie can not stand without such shamelesse doctors they shall begin to learne that it is a shamelesse doctrine The B. of Saris. Beholde what thinges they be that be written of Maximilla wife to Aegis that she being once christened would no more yeelde dutie to hir husbande but set Euclia hir mayde in hir owne place and other like fables All these and such like tales thus disalowed by S. Augustine are reported by Maister Hardings Abdias in great sooth Harding The .31 vntruth These tales be not reported by Abdias Dering Now is maister Harding come as he sayth to a great and impudent lye and such a one as by no meanes can be excused let the booke saith he be iudge I doe M. Iuell great wrong to write in his cause with so little diligence But for this cause I doe it which I trust I shall well performe that the vnlearned should not be deceiued For the learned be they not of wil blinded Maister Hardings bookes can not hurt them he hath made so vnequal a match Thou séest good reader for the iustifiing of this vntruth whereat are made so great exclamations one should read ouer all Abdias which labor I lothed so as if Amaras porrecto iugulo c. as Horace writeth I should haue stretched â—ut my necke and listened after bitter histories yet when there was no remedie I tooke the booke and in diuerse places read so much I think as amounteth to one whole leafe or more and of that little reading as I can I answere There is named in Augustine one Maximilla such one is named in Abdias she was wife to Aegetes or Aegeas so was Abdias his Maximilla she had a mayd named Iphidamia or Iphidama so sayth Abdias of his Maximilla and hir handmayd Iphidamia sayth Saint Augustine went to go heare S. Andrevv and so did the handmayde in Abdias and of all this I say as M. Harding sayth let the bookes be iudge Nowe reader I must craue thine indifferent iudgement sée whether Augustine and Abdias meane one Maximilla If they do remeÌ„ber Augustine sayth they be impudent lyes and Abdias doth tell them in great sooth But sayth Maister Harding Abdias and August do not write a like of Maximilla Sure it is the more like Abdias is a lier But what if we say Abdias did write whatsoeuer Saint Augustine hath Barre maister Harding of his gesses and he can not confute it Iohn Faber a great fabler of maister Hardings side sayth that this Abdias when he was founde was all reueled and without any fashion full of faultes so that one could neyther read him by vnderstanding nor vnderstand him by reading Then no maruaile if some part of it be perished and the booke be not come wholy vnto our handes though Abdias say not euery whit that is in Augustine When maister Harding can bring any péece of likelihoode how this agréement may be betwéene them and yet they meane not both one then let this go for an vntruth In the meane season consider whereto this shamelesse impudent and notorious lye is fallen whereof he hath made such tragedies and what the other vntruthes be when so great account was made of this This is it that I saide before maister Harding was little beholding vnto Abdias First he could not pleasure him for his small authoritie now he hath shamed him with this vnshamefast defence The B. of Saris. Saint Augustine seemeth in diuerse places to haue giuen his iudgement of this booke Hardyng The .32 vntruth Saint Augustine meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding hath good lyking in his owne doing or this vntruth should not haue bene noted twise For the matter there is inough saide in the former vntruth the argument of the thing doth witnesse of Augustines meaning The. B. of Saris. The like iudgement hereof is giuen by Gelasius Harding The .33 vntruth Gelasius meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding is so iealous ouer his Abdias that in no case he will let him be spoken off The booke be like is so full of lyes that he is sure no man can speake any good of it But how so euer he be affectioned we must thinke of authors no otherwise then we finde them He is not yet Pope and therefore may erre his word is no good witnesse of an other mans meaning Gelasius whome so euer he meaneth certaine it is he may meane Abdias for the worthinesse of the booke And whereas maister Harding for some proufe of his side sayth that he coÌ„demneth certain actes of Martyrs which are thought to be written by infidels Gelasius hath not one such worde But where as maister Harding saith further for the discharge of Abdias that Gelasius speaketh of one Quiricus and Iulita his mother this is a mocking of his reader without all regard of honestie First what kindred was betwéene these two it skilleth not much but Iulita may as well be his daughter as his mother for any thing that Gelasius sayth But let the kindred go maister Hardings reason hangeth thus Gelasius reiecting one hundreth bookes among other nameth the passioÌ„ of Quiricus ergo he reiecteth not Abdias and this is all the reason on which he groundeth this vntruth reade his Reioinder Nowe way on the other side what cause Maister Iuell hath to thinke Gelasius ment Abdias and vpon conference of eyther reason this vntruth shall be very soone answered The second booke that he condemneth is the actes of saint Andrew Abdias doth write the actes of S. Andrew The third is the actes of Philip Abdias wryteth y e actes of Philip. The fourth is the actes of Peter Abdias wryteth the actes of Peter The fift is the actes of Thomas Abdias wryteth the actes of Thomas Beside this he reiecteth the doings of Maximilla and Abdias speaketh of Maximilla Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether Gelasius meaneth of Addias or whether maister Hardings worde and misshapen argument may couÌ„teruaile all these coniectures The B of Saris. Thus it may be supposed by Saint Augustine and Gelasius that this booke was written by heritikes Harding The 34. vntruth A burthen of vntruthes Dering If this be a burthen of vntruthes no doubt the substaunce of them is very little For take away the .32 vntruth that Augustine meaneth not Abdias and the .33 vntruth that Gelasius meaneth not Abdias and except Eubulus come that saw Christ helpe Basil to Masse all this burthen of vntruthes is like to be vndone As touching the vntruthes there is inough saide already Whether they ment of Abdias it appeareth that maister Harding is to blind a iudge to gesse so boldly the contrary Here I must put thée once againe in minde of the numbring of these vntruthes First Saint
not so Dering This is a proper vntruth Now by lyke Mayster Harding is non plus The B. of Saris. Thou seest Christian reader what doctours here be brought as maister Harding sayth to ground thy fayth and saluation vpon Harding The .42 vntruth I say not so Dering If Maister Iuell shoulde so misreport maister Hardings saying as he himselfe for his vntruthes sake doth commonly vse then had he good cause to crie out both of misconstruing and corruptions for he will say and vnsay and all with one breath for to séeke aduauntage Thus he sayth expressely he hath brought these authorities for y e confirmation of thy fayth And againe he hath brought these authorities for the stay of all christian mens beléefe Sée his booke thou shalt sée the words Thē why saith he not y t he bringeth these authorities to groūd thy saluation on or how could he without blushing note this vntruth There is no other difference in the sayings saue where Maister Iuell reporteth it to ground thy faith Maister Harding hath to stay and confirme thy fayth If here be any difference alway wrangling excepted let this be an vntruth And yet were there any Maister Harding speaketh plaine ynough in the confutation of the Apologie Thus he saith there Are not these trustie men to whome you maye commit the charge of your soules for your fayth and saluation These wordes I trow are plaine ynough to proue this no vntruth The. B. of Saris. It is the very expresse order of the Communion Harding The .43 vntruth It is not so Dering This vntruth maister Harding hath not in the text but hath wrested it out of the margine and bicause he thinketh that for the base matter it would be little regarded to make vs the more attentiue he beginneth with this admiration But what meaneth Maister Iuell c. But to quite Maister Hardings wonder I aske of him againe what meaneth he thus abruptly to rush into maister Stapletons possessions He hath taken vpon him to returne those vntruthes and whye doth maister Harding meddle where he hath no thank There be already a great many past which he hath not touched and why doth he out of season thus meddle with this If he thinke maister Stapleton hath returned it nothing cunningly I doe easily graunt that he is in déede a naughtie workeman if he thinke by his labour it shall appeare more beautifull I must néedes graunt his turning is much better but yet the matter it selfe is neuer a whit the truer And for as much as the thing must trie it selfe let vs somewhat better examine it Maister Harding sayth in the .5 diuision of his first booke that Ciril hath expounded the Masse vsed in Ierusalem Maister Iuell noteth this for the .12 vntruth saying that Ciril expounded the communion and not the Masse Maister Harding returneth this vntruth againe saying it was the Masse and not the Communion I might with as great facility denie this again and say it were the Communion and not the Masse But bycause my testimonie were in this not of weight I am content to be furthered with the witnesse of maister Stapleton Hée sayth plainely that maister Harding brought not this for proufe of the question and that it maketh nothing for priuate Masse But here Maister Harding saith that it was a Masse Therefore this vntruth gathered by maister Harding is answered thus by maister Stapleton that it is not so and tyll they agrée better a longer discourse of that place of Ciril is neyther profitable nor necessarie The B. of Saris. What if all these doctors testifie against maister Hardings Masse Harding The .44 vntruth They testifie not one vvorde against it Dering Maister Iuell alleageth Iames his Liturgie Abdias Iustinus Dionysius Basil Chrysostome and Ignatius reade the Replie fol. ii of all these saith maister Harding they be M. Iuels buts and therefore he will skip them ouer and not answere a worde neither rime nor reason What shamelesse demeanor is this in men that professe to séeke the truth if wée would doe the like howe soone woulde this Reioinder be aunswered It is an easie matter if this be ynough M. Harding must séeke better stuffe this will not serue Although in déede it be true that this Reioinder is all false and vngodly stuffe yet séeing christian people are so euill disposed the falsehoode of this stuffing must be in some part disclosed Howe much then should this discredit maister Hardings religion against so expresse authoritie to make so slender aunswere The B. of Saris. Hippolytus was lately set abroade in print about seuen yeares past before neuer acquainted in the worlde Harding The .45 vntruth He was well knowne before Dering That man is well knowen of whom most men haue heard or with whome many be acquainted Now howe proueth M. Harding this Hippolytus is well knowne Saint Ierom saith he named him Surely this is a very small acquaintaunce to be named but of one man in all the worlde Yet not thys bastard Hippolytus but that other bishop and martyr is named of Saint Ierom. Such vntruthes haue great sauor of enuie or of folly or of both Sith maister Iuell sayth that Hippolytus was neuer acquainted in the worlde and Maister Harding doth shew but only that Saint Ierom did name him This vntruth if truth were wel regarded should surely haue bene spared Howe be it I graunt not onely Ierom named Hippolitus but other many Eusebius speaketh of him so doth Theodoretus and alleageth diuers sayings out of hys bookes Gelasius Epiphanius and Niciphorus also haue named him and yet all these had but small acquaintance with him Eusebius and Ierom and Theodorete knewe not where he was bishop Gelasius sayth he was a bishop in Arabia Nicephorus saith he was bishop of Ostia a hauen towne in Italy Ierom sayth Origene was stirred vp by emulation of Hippolitus yet it appeareth by sundrie recordes that Origene was made bishop of Alexandria .x. yeares before Hippolytus did write By this it appeareth that y e true Hippolytus was not long since well knowne in the world so that were this booke good yet maister Iuell sayd true But how good it is and how vnworthy the name of Hippolytus read the Replie and thou shalt well perceyue Beside this the booke by M. Harding alleged entituled de cōsummatione mundi is not once mencioned neither by Ierome nor Eusebius nor Theodorete where they make especial menciō of Hippolytus bookes then I trow we may say truely this is no vntruth The B. of Saris. He beginneth the first sentence of his booke with enim Harding The .46 vntruth He beginneth otherwise Dering Here Maister Harding maketh himselfe merie with wondring at Gréeke readers and scholemaisters musing howe they could haue béene so ignorant But may it please maister Albutius that so faine would be a Grecian to remember the Gréeke saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to laugh out of season is a great miserie Had this defence
vntruth Solennia doeth not import a solemne companie Dering Yet it séemeth so Maister Harding to as wel learned as you are But this is your common fashion to belie Maister Iuels words and then to say they be vntrue Yt séemeth saith he to import a solemne coÌ„panie What if it be not so yet it séemeth so But what if it doe import a great companie What if it can not stande with your priuate Masse Sure then is Soters decrée not worth alleaging as your vntruthe is not worth the quoting The reason that you bring out of Tullie were it not in your booke yet by the value I would gesse it yours Solemne say you doeth signifie sometime a custome Ergo when it is attributed to an action it doeth not import a companie This is verie like one of your owne arguments it hangeth so losely For the antecedent is false and the argument doth not follow But why speaketh Maister Harding against his owne knowledge he is assured it is not named in matters of religion but it signifieth a great company of persons and muche sumptuousnesse of the things so ill may his priuate Masse be solennis Mos solennis sacrarum saith Lucretius the solempne and sumptuous manner of the sacrifices And Virgil calleth them arae solennes many and costly altares so pompae solennes burials in solemne order vota solennia vowes made solemnly in the company of many and Tullie Solenne statutum sacrificium a sacrifice done sumptuously and appointed times and in M. Hardings Portuise sacris solennijs iuncta sunt gaudia to solemne seruice there is annexed ioyes This aucthoritie is sufficient against master Harding He wil say nothing I trow against his Portuise If he wil we will then charge him with the Popes owne aucthoritie Innocentius tertius shewing the cause why in their single holydayes they say not the Créede nor Gloria in excelsis as wel as they do on their double feasts wryteth thus vt inter commemorationem solennitatem differentiam ostendatur that there may be a difference betwéene a commemoration and a solemnitie Loe héere is Pope Innocent flat against maister Harding concerning the nature of the word and yet he is content to speake euen as Soter doth and say of the other Masses missarum solennia Thus we sée these vntruthes sometime can not agrée nether with their holy father the Pope neither yet with the Portuise The B. of Saris. Soter requireth to this action only the company of three Harding The .147 vntruthe He requireth not .iij. but .ij. at the least Dering Note good reader this vntruthe is now twise made in the 144. vntruthe and againe here Yet if thou way it well thou shalt sée it was not worth repetition In the other place the sense was very obscure and here the words are very strauÌ„ge To make this solemne Masse saith M. Iuel iii. are required Not so saith M. Harding the priest requireth but two to make answere But what if it happen that these two haue a thirde priest to say the Masse Soter séemeth to meane so when he saith vt sit ipse tertius that the priest may be the thirde I can not tel all their misteries It may be they haue a custome that two may make answere when no man sayth the Masse Or if they haue not then this is not vntrue The B. of Saris. It may be doubted whether dominus vobiscum were parte of the Liturgie in Soters time Harding The .148 vntruthe This cannot be wel and reasonably doubted Dering If well and reasonably doe not helpe out this vntruthe it hathe then neither goodnesse nor shew of probabilitie Now what well and reasonably may doe in this matter it shall well and reasonably appeare if you marke Damasus woords he saith there was nothing red in the Churche on sundayes sauing some Epistle of the Apostle and some chapter of the Gospell If Damasus say true then it may be doubted bothe well and reasonably whether Dominus vobiscum were red or noe This saying of Damasus maister Iuel dothe alledge and vpon little searche it will easily appeare by all Ecclesiasticall recordes that in Soters time and many yeares after there was no other solemnitie in their ministration sauing reading or expounding the scriptures and some prayers which the whole congregation did make together some say that Peter vsed to celebrate with the Lordes prayer only Paule did preache vnto them as appeareth in the Actes Iustine speaking of the Communion in his time â–ª saith Post precationem nos salutamus osculo mutuo deinde affertur precipuo fratri panis caâ—ix aqua dilutus c. After our prayers we salute one an other with a kisse then the bread is brought to the chiefest brother and the cuppe of wine and water Then the mynister giueth thanks vnto God in the name of the Sonne and of the holy ghost and the whole people doe answere Amen And if these words are not yet plaine inough by which we may doubt whether Dominus vobiscum were then in the Liturgie Iustine saith againe Die solis vrbanorum rusticorum coetus fiunt vbi apostolorum prophetarumque litera quoad fieri potest preleguntur c. On sunday we haue our metings bothe of the towne and the countrey where the Apostâ—es and prophets wrytings are red vnto vs so long as time wil serue then our mynister dothe make an exâ—ortation willing vs to folow the vertue and goodnesse whereof we reade Then we rise altogether and make our prayers Lâ—e héere is a full description of the Communion in Iustinus Martyr who liued in Soters time And yet in all this not one word making mention of Dominus vobiscum yet is maister Harding so importune in his vntruthes that he dareth boldly affirme and yet hath no grounde that Dominus vobiscum was then parte of their seruice Let him shewe but one sufficient recorde for proofe of that he wryteth and let him haue his vntruthe I know our decretall Epistles would be of this age and they defile Gods sacraments as becommeth that adulterous generation But those epistles as I haue sufficiently already shewed are far vnworthy those godly fathers whose names they beare The B. of Saris. Further this same Soter requireth that bothe these two and as many others as be present make answere vnto the priest Harding The .149 vntruthe He requireth it not this is vtterly false Dering Note good reader maister Hardings impudencie and take héede of his lying spirite he saith very censoure like this is vtterly false and in his Reioinder raileth much at M. Iuel for falsifying the Doctours and yet most impudently he dothe vtterly belie him Read his booke he doth not bring one letter to proue that he saith Belike he is wel persuaded his friends wil beleue him if he doe but say the worde but to bring some proofe against maister Hardings bare word vpon these words of Soter let him haue two at the least to aunswere
iustifie them or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies Let the Reader iudge The B. of Saris. If no bodie receiued then is it not true that some receiued Harding The .196 vntruth Chrisostome saith not that some receiued Dering If the last vntruthe were not worth the noting then what store hath he that is faine to number it twice Yet so it is this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience The former vntruthe was Chrisostome said not some receiued with the priest this is he saith not some receiue if he would make the third that some receiue not with it had euen as good reason as either of these But let these vntruthes alone they cannot doe much harme Onely I must admonish thée that after this long ado with Maister Iuel Maister Harding for his exercise will fights little with him selfe Here he saith that Chrisostome saith not that some receiue yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes Cum timore dei et fide et dilectione accedite he doeth english them thus come you vp to receiue with the feare of God c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth cannot be reconciled If there he wel translated it come vp to receiue then this is no vntruth If this be vntrue then that was a false translation One of these can not be denied The B. of Saris. He saith the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons Harding The .197 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering Maister Harding by like doth say and vnsay and careth not what he say These are his verie wordes Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great and populous citie of Antioche where the scriptures were daily expounded and preached c. And here I say as Maister Harding saith let his booke be iudge And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other Would he haue vs think that this preaching were onely in Antioche and no where else This might well be if papistrie hadde ben then in vre and preaching not regarded But to think it of that world in which good religion florished and Gods word was plentifull it is an vncharitable gessing Thus much I speake graunting Maister Hardings wordes that in Antioche the people were daily taught And then if it were so the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true this can be no vntruth but how true those wordes are Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue reade his Replie he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes to proue that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke and therevpon he saith further thus The B. of Saris. I note this not for that I mislike of daily preaching but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed should not passe vntouched Harding The .198 vntruth It is no vntruth Dering I am sorie to trouble the reader with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes but so it is if nothing should be said they would be thought of some force Maister Harding vseth this reason to proue his priuate Masse In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse Of this argument Maister Iuel saith thus to aduaunce the citie to abase the countrey he saith in cities they had dayly sermons but this is vntrue For in Antioche they had not so Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes 1. I say not they were taught so in cities 2. They were taught so in Antioche Who could haue scraped out these vntruthes but he Or what force is there in them For this second vntruth where he still affirmeth they had dayly preaching in Antioche that is a very false lie and yet how impudently doth be persist in it The B. of Saris. Yet saith Maister Harding in small countrey churches either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice or else he receiued alone Harding The .199 vntruth I say not so This is altogether falsified Dering I pray God Maister Harding be not altogether without grace He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie so boldely denieth his owne sayings that his cause is much to be feared Marke here Maister Iuels wordes I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them then iudge whether here be any vntruth Thus he writeth of such countrey churches it must be sayd that either the sacrifice ceased c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for others to communicate with them Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes either the daily sacrifice ceased saith Maister Harding either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice saith Maister Iuell What is here falsified If it dyd cease the Priest ceased it For I trow the lay man might not say Masse if he would The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them These many words bicause oftedious writing Maister Iuell reporteth this or the priest receiued alone Now iudge of this place which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified and praye that Maister Harding may once haue eies to sée The .200 vntruth Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin that is not in the text When he telleth vs what it is we will better examine it The B. of Saris. The Masse that is so glorious can neither be founde in churches nor chappels Harding It is found both in churches and chappels Dering It is not yet found neither in church nor chappell within .600 yeares of Christ. The B. of Saris. Thus saith Chrysostome if thou stand by and not receiue thou art malapert thou art shamelesse thou art impudēt 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof vnworthie be thine eares 3. O thou wilt say I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers 4. Thou maist no more stay here than an heathen that ueuer was christened Harding The .202 vntruthe Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes The .203 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened Dering Sure good Reader the numbring of these vntruthes is verie straunge here is one Chrysostome saith not these wordes an other he saith not then an heathen c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth what Maister Harding meaneth by these words If he meane the whole sentence why maketh he an other truth If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences or if he think but one of those sentences is false why doeth he not tell vs which it is Certaine it is Maister Harding did know that these former partes of this allegation were all true
naming the holy captain Iosue for the Prophet Ose. fo 98. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fo 100. expresse for represse fol â—od alone hereof for in earth aboue hir fol. 102. but you haue for but your churche hath fol. 104. cansabo for cantabo fol. 111. Antonius for Antoninus And after thou shalt finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 destruction for distinction could easily for could not easily These and suche other faultes escaped in the printing of my boke as well in the wordes as in the pointing how many so euer thou shalt ascribe vnto me so many iniuries thou shalt doe me He is a simple scholer that can not write truely and the pointing is not so difficult that it requireth any great learning for other things what so euer shalbe founde blame worthy the fault is mine owne and wherein souer the enimy shall finde his fault I doubt not but I shall by Gods grace be able to defend it The force of truth is such that though the patrone be simple yet she will defend hir self especially suche truth as hath made hir selfe so manifest The truthe of God that standeth vpon a hill and may be seene of all men the truth that shineth as a light in a darke place and as the day starre arising in our heartes that truthe whose glorious beautie hath darkned the painted and deceiueable lokes of the purple whore of Babilon It is now no mastery sith we know God to know him that lifteth vp himself against God sith we know Christ to know Antichrist sith we know Peter to know Peters forged successoure And for as much as to this issue al our controuersie is come that what right or authoritie so euer the Pope chalengeth he maketh his whole claime from Peter and the papists themselues will defende him no further but so farre as he succedeth Peter I will speake a little of Peters bishoprike of Rome so farre as the scriptures shall be my warrant Consider thou of it good christian Reader that shall be said and if thou see that all the glorying of Peters being at Rome is but a fasing out of an impudent he then iudge what is their other religion First here I must forwarne thee that as a lie can not long agree with it selfe so in all this matter thou shalt hardly finde in all pointes two popishe chronicles agree togither So that what so euer I wryte as touching the exacte computation of yeres there must needes be many against me Therefore in that I will not striue only I will wryte that which is certaine and shall haue as I said either some warrant of scripture or shall be agreed on by the consent of all ages Our sauioure Christ was crucified for our sinnes the .18 yeare of Tyberius as by all histories it is manifest Peter is said to be put to deathe in Rome the last yeare of Nero so Peter liued after Christ vnder Tyberius .v. yeare Caligula 4. yeare Claudius .13 yeare Nero. 13 yeare In all .36 yeares and odde monthes according to the raigne of the saide Emperoures in these .36 yeares and odde moneths they vvryte of Peter thus He vvas bishop â–ª 4. yeares in the East partes .7 yeares at Antioche and .25 yeares at Rome vvhere at last he died Heere this fable doeth almost bevvray it selfe suche hasty enstallings and so many translatings out of one bishopprike into an other doeth not vvell agree vvith oure sauiours vvordes that they should haue affliction in the vvorlde But let vs searche the scriptures and trie hovve these Bishopprikes vvil stande After that our Sauioure is ascended they goe into Ierusalem all the Apostles togither they choose Mathie the Apostle After fiftye dayes they receiue the holy Ghost Peter conuerteth many After certaine dayes Peter and Iohn goe vppe in to the Temple they heale the lame they are put in prisone they are forbidden to preache anye more in the name of Iesus then they returne vnto the other Apostles and tary many daies togither working many miracles amoÌ„g the people in so much that the Cities round about resorted daily to Ierusalem to haue their sick and diseased healed Then again the Apostles are put in prison and God deliuereth theÌ„ and many dayes they preach in the temple and in euery house After this came a great persecution against the Church at Ierusalem in so much that they were all dispearsed sauing the Apostles Then at the laste after many dayes Peter is sent out of Ierusalem into Samaria where he preacheth in diuers townes about Thus farre good Reader thou seest plainly Peter is no bishop nor yet in any speciall authoritie when the other Apostles sende him out to preache Then he returneth againe to Ierusalem and this is one yeare after the death of our sauioure Christ as the histories do all agree in reporting the conuersion of S. Paule which was nowe done as appeareth Act. 9. This is the yeare of our Lord .35 In the yere of our Lord .38 He dwelleth in Ierusalem Gal. 1.18 Likewise in the yere of our Lorde .46 he is imprisoned at IerusaleÌ„ Act. 12.2 Againe in the yeare of our Lord .48 he is at the councel holden in Ierusalem Act. 15.7 from that day forward he giueth his faith vnto Paule and Barnabas that he will be an Apostle not to the Romaines but to the Iewes Gal. 2.9 vvhich truely he accompliâ—hed euen vntill his death and doubtlesse neuer came at Rome Now christian reader seing the scripture lieth thus that Peters aboade in Ierusalem after the conuersion of S. Paule Anno Domini .35 is recorded .iij. seuerall times And after the last time a couenaunt made that he woulde continue among the Iewes If I shall proue vnto thee that these seuerall times are rightly numbred according to the yeare of the Lorde that is that the first time was the .38 yeare the seconde time the .46 yeare the third time the .48 yeare and then in the meane while betwene the .35 yeare and the .38 likewise the .38 and the .46 and betwene the .46 and .48 that Peter was not in Rome last of all that he was true of his promise and after the .48 yeare came not at Rome then I trust thou wilt confesse with me that Peter was neuer .25 yeares Bishop of Rome But that all poperie as it is in it selfe nothing but lies so it is grounded wholly and altogither vpon lies First it is agreed vpon by all the thing is plaine in it self Paule was conuerted the yere of our Lord .35 TheÌ„ Paule himself writeth thus After three yeres I came to IerusaleÌ„ to see Peter and abode in his house .xv. dayes so this was the .38 yere of our Lord when Peter is first in IerusaleÌ„ When he was after imprisoned at Ierusalem Act. 12.2 that it was the .46 yeare of our Lorde it is proued thus The countreis about â–ª that is Tyre and Sidon were
Fishermen some Tentmakers some Husbandmen and suche like this contrarietie of Apostles could neuer be in Christes Apostles Then by like M. Hardings Church that is faine to make them Apostles hath some wants And yet bicause M. Iuell sayd thus much he falleth out in a rage that his Challenge was foolish his Replie without learning his arrogancie much his Gospell false his weakenes discouered his modestie stained and I wot not what A heape of shamelesse lies in halfe a side of a lease The Challenge was foolish yet Harding Dorman Rastell Marshall Stapleton Heskins Saunders and Shacklocke doe sweate these .iiii. or .v. yeares about it and are neuer the neare The Replie was vnlearned Yet M. Harding in a yeare could reioyne but with a few leaues and that non absque theseo Summysts or Glosesearchers euerie one doth helpe a little Concerning these other sclaunders his pride can not be much that alwayes commendeth his aduersaries cunning His Gospell is not false that embraceth nothing but the Gospell of Christ. His weakenesse is litle that is vpholden with so manye authorities His modestie is not stained whose enimie euill reporteth him Nor his bragges are manie where the victorie abideth Therfore this filthie fome of such vncomely railing doth rather bewray the sicknes of the wryters mynde then reproue the person against whom it is vttered Harding ¶ That you loked fiercely and shoke your sword terribly I sayd it not as you reporte me c. from thence to digresse to the odious vpbraiding vs with crueltie c. it was more spitefull then pertinent to the matter Dering Maister Harding much blameth the racking of this example but he may not nowe well discemble his meaning His owne writinges and Maister Shacklocks old withered trée doe showe howe gladly they woulde bring vs into hatred oâ— bloudinesse and when they secretly insinuate it is it not wisdome to bring open remedies They may not well discharge them selues of such secrete doinges Maister Harding was but little gone in this Epistle when he would closely séeme to be Appelles But his painting was not singular and therfore I passed it ouer After that he hath saide in this matter what he can he commeth to his woonted rhetorike of Runnagates Apostataes Forsakers and Rebels as if he were talking of him selfe or Staphylus and such companions But Maister Hardings mouth is no slaunder our constancy is yet vnblamable He blameth much our vncourtesy towarde our aduersaries but he sheweth not wherin we do so euill entreat them We neither tye them vp in cheines nor shut them vp in cole houses Perhaps he will saye they are in â—uraunce Yet that is but his own false surmise Their great good lyking is a token of little hard handling As touching these manye yffes of the beginning of Maister Iuels profession they néede no aunswere What he ment a godlye man maye iudge in seing gods blessing of his proceadinges He findeth not hym selfe guilty with Core Dathan and Abiron in gods mercies he feareth not the fall of Lucifer And as you Maister Harding haue regarde to the saluation of your soule for Christes sake he requireth you to enter into your owne conscience If promotion made you shrinke remember Ieroboam that made Israel to synne If shame make you coÌ„tinue remember Pharao that would not yéeld to Moyses What euer kepeth you back from the true ioye of Gods gospell remember Iulianus You shall crye in time vicisti Galilee O Galilean thou hast the victory Harding ¶ That you were enforced therto by our importunity as you say who can beleue you For who of vs al troubled you Who prouoked you Who did so much as pull you by the sleue Had you not before shut vs vp c. Dering Where he denieth that M. Iuell was prouoked by their importunitie and thereto rayseth a heape of his idle questions what priuate cause he had I know not Of their great importuniti all the world is witnesse What if M. Bonner were in prison that had tied vp so many What if testie M. Watson held his peace Or what if M. Harding were quiet Are there no moe enimies of Gods truth but they Was all at rest Was al husht Was not the world dayly seduced by their popery Was not Christes merites darkned Antichrist stil fighting for his seate in the temple And will not this importunitye stirre vp a good Byshop I pray you M. Harding I speake it not to vpbraide you but to admonish Gods people what if your watchmen were blinde and had no knowledge what if they were domme Dogs and they would not barke what if they laye a sléepe and delited in sléeping doo you thinke therefore that the vigilant pastor of Sarisburie coulde sée the woolfe come and runne awaye sée the théefe and kéepe silence Your great murderer Hosius was buste your Sorbonists wer occupied your Louanists at their labour this might moue the byshop though a few of you foxes dyd not much trouble y â— fold dissemble not your knowledge for shame anie longer confesse this was great cause both of griefe and vehemency Hardyng You finde fault with my want of modesty for shewyng forth your bosting for my part I pray God I be neuer found more faulty for want of modestie Dering Maister Harding excuseth him selfe that he hath not passed modestie and prayeth God that therein hée be neuer founde more faultie but whosoeuer readeth ouer his writing and raketh vp togither the scourings of his modestie shall finde such a heape of railings that if he yet feare going ouer them it is very true that he that is once past shame is like to proue notoriously impudent But it skilleth not much how immodest he be in writing that defendeth such a shamelesse cause Hardyng ¶ If the truth you meane were manifest and knowen why could not Luther see it by whose spectacles you haue espied many pointes of your Gospel by his minde the truth of you that be Caluinistes is not manifest Dering Now M. Harding falleth into his common place of Luther and Caluine and those men the more excellent their vertues were the more opprobriousâ—ye he reporteth them I could haue wished in the one lesse vehemencie But it was a froward world when he first preached the people coulde not be wonne with entreatie The other may be a spectacle in al posteritie to behold the great mercies of God that endued his sinfull creatures with so rare vertues He preached so often and wrote so many bookes that if the truth bare not witnesse it might séeme incredible He expounded the scriptures in such vertue of the spirite giue me leaue to speake as I thinke seing all is to the glorye of God that neither S. Augustine nor S. Ierom the great lightes of Gods church haue euer done the like But let such men rest in the peace of the Church Maister Hardings reuilings can not blemish their good names After this he expoundeth his meaning in calling Maister Iuell Goliah which he saith he
the Moonke was the messenger Now to quit these negatiues with which M. Harding is so well pleased with like negatiues we may well and truly ouerthrow all popish religion taking example of our sauiour Christes doing For he neuer alowed of their ceremonies He neuer celebrated his last supper alone He neuer ministred in one kinde He neuer made any vniuersall bishop He neuer named Transubstantiacion Masse Mattens Euensong Dirige nor Trentals He neuer went a procession with cope crosse or candlesticke He neuer â—ensed Image nor sang Latin seruice He neuer went to shrift nor sat in confession He neuer preached of Purgatorie nor pardons He neuer honored Saintes nor praied for the dead He neuer fasted Friday Uigil Lent nor Aduent He neuer hallowed Churche nor chalice ashes nor palmes candels nor bels He neuer made holy water nor holy bread He neuer wore Rochet nor Tippet He neuer had Crosse nor Myter Corporas nor Portas shepebooke nor Massebooke Frankincense nor Peterpence wax nor flax nor any such trumperie And therefore by these negatiues we may well conclude that M. Hardings religion is not of Christes institution Harding ¶ Vpon this negatiue it liketh you well to dally and bicause say you it offendeth vs you wyll turne it on our side c. And when you haue made all your turnings you doe as muche for vs as if you gaue a Snake for an Adder c. What proofes we haue and how iustlye we confute your Obiections and Replies let our treatises be examined Dering Maister Iuels negatiue is this that they can not prooue by Scripture Doctour Councell or anye example anye one of these articles which are called into controuersie This negatiue misliketh them Therfore sayth M. Iuell we will take the affirmatiue and prooue their religion not to come from Christes Apostles This I trow is not to dallie but plainlye and vnfainedly to séeke 〈◊〉 the truth Yet saith Maister Harding this is a Snake in stede of an Adder in deede it is true the calling of these articles into question hath stoonge that whorish religion euen vnto death And that Aesculapius Adder that hath lurked so long in Rome for all his quicke sight is by this meanes discouered God be praysed for it for euer and euer Wher Maister Harding saith further let this matter be tried by treatisies I feare not such iudges for sure of all mens doinges their owne lyinges dreamings visions oracles coniurings and such deuises haue giuen their religion the greatest ouerthrowe Hardyng ¶ You report my wordes vntruly as your common maner is making men beleue although I sayd all these articles were of light importaunce c. The lightest of them is of weight to drawe you downe to the rufull state of damned soules if for maintenaunce of your priuate opinion you feare not to breake the vnitie of the church Yet as though I had said what you faslie report me to say you procede and scoffingly demauÌ„d whether ye may thinke that our religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doth the moone Dering These be Maister Hardings woordes in his Preface to his aunswere Why treate you not of matters of more importance then these be of which yet lye in question betwene the church of Rome and the Protestantes As the presence of Christes bodye and bloude in the Sacrament of Iustification of the value of good woorkes of the Sacrifice of the Masse c. Thys obscure manner of speaking maye séeme to make light of these waightye mattters and therefore who so euer should say so of them deserued litle blame But héere Maister Hardings choler is to much inflamed bicause Maiste Iuell noting their inconstancie asketh whether their Religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doeth the moone And hath he not thinke you good occasion to aske this question Doeth not Maister Harding saye in many of these articles that they be no keyes of their Religion Yet héere he saith if a man denie them when they be receiued they are of value inoughe to dampne him Where is his wit become What is so contrary to it selfe as this What is waxing and waning What is increasing and vading if this be none And what Christian eares can abide this saying that suche trifels as they be of them selues and such filthy whooredomes as they be now made of should condempne vs if we shoulde speake against them He paide not the price of soules that so easily sendeth them away from ther maister vnto Satan The casting awaie such scourings of the Romish vncleannes shall neuer doo it nay it is a witnesse vnto our consciences that we be the children of the highest Hardyng ¶ Concerning the rest of your aunswere wherin you treat certaine coÌ„mon places vtter much spite against the Pope c. against transubstanciatioÌ„ against inuocation of saints against aultars c. Prayer for the dead you condemne and shew no cause why c. I thinke good to let passe and contemne it Dering Now sure well done maister Harding where you can not reade skip ouer but take good héede least in your lâ—aping you hurt your selfe and do your cause no good If men shal vnderstand that you wil not alow the authority of Pope Nicolaus Pope Leo Pope Boniface Pope Sergius and the common Law all which Maister Iuell alledgeth you shall make the Pope that now is beshrew you and so peraduenture you shal get a curse and you shall make all good Christian people mistrust you Of transubstantiation aultars we will say more héereafter Prayer to saintes is now nighe forgotten You aske in the margine why we doe not aunswere the booke of Purgatory In déede now you come to the point This article is very auncient about .1900 yeares a gone Plato spake of it in his booke de animo where this your cleansing place hath his first ground foundation And therfore for our good and sufficient discharge in this matter I aunswere out of the same booke of Plato We meddle not with your booke of purgatory bicause we feare not our shadowes You know that y e yoÌ„g nouice in Philosophy feared not y e three hedded Cerberus the roring of Cocytus the rolling stone of Sisyphus and how shoulde we feare your painted paper walles of Purgatory Christ is our Sauiour God engraffe in vs a desire to be with him and for my part sith purgatory hath no graunt in Gods woord I recken it scarce woorthy aunswer Yet bicause you ar importune somwhat shall be sayd hereafter Hardyng ¶ You haue piked out or set some a worke to pike out for you all the tearmes and woordes vsed in my booke which a good man may iustly bestow in rebuke of vice vpon euill men c. Dering Héere Maister Harding is fallen into a very shamelesse veine of writing and thinketh good at large to excuse his own modesty The woordes in which he séeketh after it are these Thersites Goliath Heathens Publicanes sacramentaries Lucians scoffers rashe presumtuous ignorant péeuishe and
his sonne Christ quis vestrum arguet me de peccato which of you can conuince me of sinne Who euer defended a matter c. Your doctours at Oxford against these reuerend Fathers D. Cranmer D. Ridley and M. Latimer Who euer in so weighty pointes c. You in your aunswer and héere in defence of your modesty And yet this ioly fellowe c. I will speake nothing of this modesty For vndoubtedly it is far spent But this is a Popes disputation to aske vs first our mindes and then to conclude whether we wil or no. But fare you well Maister Harding nowe you are off the stage giue vs leaue a little to speake to the audience Marke christiā reader this mans intemperancy He hath purposed to defend his vaine and beastly Religion and thou shalt sooner ouerturne the whole estate of his lyfe then bring him from it Hée hath woorshipped so long in the church of Rome that Elizeus the Prophet cannot call him out of it He careth not what he saith nor how boldly he affirmeth and he is not ignorant of this him selfe but he is so far of from hauing any thing for him selfe that he thinketh he must not onely speake against vs but euen against nature against the warnings of reason against the opinion of al men against the scriptures of God He defēdeth his modestie with mostim̄odest woordes He shameth not to saye Maister Iuels Booke is foolish which is a looking glasse of learning to al that vnderstand it He saith his arguments be péeuish which yf they be not grounded in Gods woorde I require thée beleue them not He saith he spareth not the maiesty of the holy ghost and Christ our Lord and yet in so great blasphemy bringeth no one coniecture And how doeth he handle all this With so good and chosen woordes so handsome colours so whole sentences that although he hath made warre against God and his Church yet he séemeth to speake déepe diuinity God giue vs grace to beware of him He is a blinde leader of the blinde But he is come againe let vs sée what he hath more to say Harding ¶ You would haue men thinke this were Vetus Comoedia No M. Iuell it is Zelus Dei it not Vetus Comoedia The imitation of Vetus Comoedia hath euer bene takē for a badge of men of your profession c. You mocke and scoffe at our persons as the naughty boyes of Bethel dyd at Elizeus but at our auncient Religion at the church of Christ. Yet wee curse you not in the name of our Lord as he did those euill nourtered children that ye might be toren of Beares c. With your wicked doctrine you haue so brought the people from God as now for a great number they may seeme not to halt on both sides but to be fallen downe right Yet doe we not call for fire to discend from heauen and burne you vp Neither doe we stirre the people to take you and destroye you as Elias bad the people to destroye the false Prophetes Dering Haue you not left iarring of this vnmodest string Belike it is very pleasant musicke in your eares This manner of behauiour say you is not Vetus comoedia no open naming of men vpon stages What is it then It is Zelus Dei I may not iudge directly what you are within Paule was a persecutour in defending their traditions but sure your zeale is not according to knowledge you loue darknesse more thē light and therfore you dwell in ignorance you seeke not after wisdome as after siluer and gold and therfore you finde hir not You saye we scoffe at you and your Religion as the. c. At your persons we scoffe not God is our witnesse we wéepe to see the temple of the holye Ghost to be the temple of an Harlot it gréeueth vs that in the Image of God shoulde appeare Sathans vglye visage And you want not our prayers for your returne But your auncient Religion we hate and abhorre it It is so olde that it is rotton and one péece wil not hange with an other it is a smoke that at the flaming out of gods woord is vanished it is a stinking mist it is ouerblowen with the swéete windes of the holy spirit And therfore doo not blame vs if we cannot abide it Your Religion is as good as your vaunt is true when you commende your selues for clemencie aboue Elizeus or Elias You saye you praye not that we maye be torne of Beares nor that fyre from heauen maye come downe to destroye vs. What your prayer is inwardely I say it oft I know not But for your good will towarde vs if you coulde commaund either beastes or Elements we should not escape neither Beare nor fyre The aboundance of our bloode crieth out to heauen that you are as mercifull as the woolfe or the Tyger But O passi grauiora dedit deus his quoque finem his name be praysed for euermore Harding ¶ Certaine false preachers for their great impudency and for that they barked at the light of the Gospel as dogs do at the Moone by night S. Paule called dogges and bad the Philippians beware of them c. Dering Here Maister Harding would couer his vngodly demeanour with the cloke of godlynes for that S. Paule called certaine vngodly teachers doggs and euill labourers and therfore he woulde gladlye saye as much to Maister Iuell But who were they that thus barked at the Gospell Uerily men of their owne Religion For thus saith S. Paule Beware of doggs beware of euill workers beware of concysion For we are the circumcysion that worshipp God in the spirite and reioyce in Christ Iesu and haue no confidence in the fleshe But O the wretched Church of that confounded Babylon what one-péece hath it of this spirituall woorship that is to reioyce in Christ alone and haue no confidence in the fleshe Do they not make Angels their mediators Do they not call vpon Paule and Peter Doe they not say that their whoorish Masse is propitiatory Doe they not byd men go range a pilgrimage for the greater meades Doe they not say ther is a merit of our workes And what say they not that leaneth to flesh and bloode This ▪ is the barking doctrine this is the tearing renting in peces of Christ his merites S. Augustine saith non gratia ex merito sed meritum ex gratia Grace commeth not of deserte but deserte commeth of grace Let them leaue off their iesting at Maister Iuells worship it is no tyme to speake euill of authority Euen in such language the hart is sorowfull and the ende of that myrth is heauinesse Harding ¶ Ieremie calleth them of Iewry Staliens for that they neyed eche one at an others wyfe Ezechiel calleth the false Prophetes of Israel Foxes so Christ him selfe named Herod a Fox Dering Yet M. Harding procéedeth in the long space of his owne modestie and as he must néedes doe alledging
for he saith as Maister Iuell alledgeth not onely the priest sacrificeth but also the whole company of the faithful But what maketh this for Maister Harding The priest and the people both doe sacrifice therefore is there no difference in the ministerye S. Peter saith you are a kingly Priesthood therfore is ther no difference in the function betwene the minister and the laye man True it is that the minister and the people do offer vp a lyke one sacrifice vnto God but that maketh nothing to Maister Hardings saying Thus we se while he hobbeth and roueth and shooteth at euery marke a lie he was an hypocrite when he was at the best and nowe is led forwarde still to be an open enimie Reade the .222 vntruth An other péece of thys marke is this that men and women make the sacrifice of the aulter and be Priests after the order of Melchisedech Of this reade the .158 vntruth The last péece of thys marke is yet woorst of all nothing else but malice slaunder and wickednesse here agaynst M. Iuell bicause he wryteth not one such woord and commonlye agaynst the truth of God which the wicked doe alwaye peruert And this is that marke that God is the author of euill and driueth men to sin What should I here aunswere but euen saye with the Prophet The scornful haue said We haue made falshood our refuge and vnder vanitie we are hid If euerye such euyll saying myght clayme an aunswere M. Hardings one Reioynder would require many volumes But for a sufficient contentation of the Reader I say in all M. Iuels booke there is no one such woord I adde further nor in all the bookes that euer were wrytten by any godly man of M. Iuels profession Let M. Harding or all hys companions in searching ouer theyr wrytings bryng but one letter whereby we may gesse that euer such a saying was ment and for my part let hys writings be approued If he can not doe this consider of hys religion He would not speake wyckedlye for Gods defence nor talke deceitfully for his cause If anye man require what our opinon is let hym reade any learned man intreating of the predestination of God or of mans frée wyll or for a better warrant let him reade the scriptures it selfe We say al that God made was very good He created man in honour and gaue hym frée wyll and man of himselfe gaue place to inordinate affections where hee might haue obeyed Gods woord euen as it is written He hath set water and fire before thée stretch out thy hand vnto which thou wilt And agayne God created man without corruptiō And concerning sinne we say through the enuy of the Deuill came death into the world Neither néede we make exception agaynst this authoritie bicause it is not in the canō For the Apostle doth authorize it where he writeth He that committeth sinne is of the Deuil For the Deuill sinneth euen from the beginning And in an other place Diabolus est mendax pater eius the Deuill is a lyer and the father thereof not as your friende Mayster Dorman doth interprete it and so was hys father before hym for that were in déede to make God the authour of euill which is the marke you talke of Now euen as the Deuill is authour of euil so we by his suggestiō haue the next cause in our selues which is an vncleane hart lyke as our Sauiour saith Out of the hart procéede euil cogitations c. Of God we say and we say againe and we preache it and we wryte and beleue it and in it we reioyce that God is neyther the author of euyll neyther yet would it should be committed The shepe goe astray without the shepherdes wyll The groate is lost and the poore woman would not so Christ woulde gather togither Ierusalem as the Hen doth hir Chickens but they would not But this we say that the wayes of God are not like the wayes of men that he should not know what thynges were to come He could not be deceiued in his own creature He did foresée the fall of Adam and by his omnipotency could haue made him stand For who can resist hys will He coulde haue made him so pure that he should not haue sinned euen as he hath now made his Aungels and wyll make the whole number of his elect that no man anye more shall take awaye theyr ioye from them And as we are sure this is Gods omnipotēcy so why he did it not we cā not assigne any cause but bicause he would not For we knowe he hath done al things that he woulde Yet a cause ther was and that a most iust and good cause For their is no iniquity with him And this cause he did knowe in his eternall secret counsell before all worldes for as much as all thinges are present with him To enter further into Gods councell and aske why he appointed such a course in which the reprobate both Angels and men shoulde fall away this were presumptuous folly Shall the pot say vnto the potter why hast thou made me so The Godly will staye here and in the feare and loue of God wil professe and beleue both that God ruleth all thinges with his mighty worde and yet wylleth he no man to sinne We haue so much corruption in our selues that we néede no further prouoking vnto wickednesse Now to Maister Hardings purpose thus much we saye that God permitteth synne and with longe patience doth suffer the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction but yet this permission we say doth appertayne vnto the will of God For he doth not suffer it eyther inforced or against his will neither yet doth he so suffer it that he doth nothing him selfe For he ruleth and gouerneth euen their iniquity He suffereth it not to rage at will but guideth it either to the punishment of the wicked as he oft punished the Israelites with the wickednes of straunge Princes or to the triall of his elect as it is well acknowledged of the prophet Dauid saying of Shimei he curseth euen bicause the Lord hath bid him curse Dauid yet God made not the malice of Shimeis mynde Likewyse where it is sayde of the destruction of Ierusalem that God brought vpon them the king of the Chaldeans God did not ingraffe in Nabuchadoneyzar his great cruelty but being bred in his own mind he brought it vpon whom it pleased him Therfore Christ saith all the heares of our head are numbred and with out Gods appointment ther shal not one of them perish This therefore is our doctrine God is no cause of wickednesse but men cannot apply their owne wickednesse but where it pleaseth God neither do they exercise their wickednes but when and how far his grace doth leaue them For plainer declaration of this we may compare the grace of God and the sunne If the sunne be ouer
victorie Such Hercules buskins he can applie to little leggs and make so great vaunts where himselfe is furthest deceyued The B. of Saris. The name of Masse is seldome or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers Hardyng The .17 vntruth It is often found among the olde writers Dering Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow This word is seldom found â—aith Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers it is found often sayth he in olde writers as though who soeuer were auncient he were straite way Catholyke Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée there be other which notwithstanding their age yet haue no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters How proueth he this vntruth He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found he sayth he could bring thrée mo that is .xii. in all The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite so in .12000 bookes he can finde that he seeketh for but .12 times yet sayth he it is found often Maister Iuell graunteth it is found somtimes Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller Now this worde Masse or Missa least it shoulde beguile thée for that it is sometime in catholike fathers I will brieflye declare vnto thée what it is and in what sence it is found That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse as Basils Masse Chrisostomes Masse and Iames his Masse in Gréeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth an open or common function and this signification it hath as well in prophane writers as in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth Aristotle he is occupied in the administration of the commoÌ„ wealth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to execute common offices So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the open worshippinges and seruice of their Gods In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they were openlye preaching and Saint Paule sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I might be an open minister among the Gentiles and this is proued by the Etimologie or true explication of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that hath common businesse in hande Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so neyther Chrisostome nor Iames nor Basil nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde or named Masse or if they did the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse As touching the Latine worde Missa we haue to learne it as the fathers sayde remissa for remissio so also they sayd missa for missio that is a sending away when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth were sent away from the true beleuers which was before the communion And this appeareth by Saint Augustine where he sayth Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis manebunt fideles venietur ad locum orationis Beholde after the sermon the Nouices are dimissed the faythfull shall abyde and shall go vnto the communion For so maister Harding doth witnesse that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie and in déede in this place it is true Here haue we thrée especiall things to note the craft and subtilitie of Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton who both as it may be well thought vpon conference haue aledged the same places oute of doctors and councels where this worde Misâ—a is found and yet neyther haue mencioned this place of Augustine If they knewe it not they are not of that reading they pretend if they knew it it is to maliciously concealed Secondarily there abode no more in the Church but such as were communicants So this late gazing at a popish Masse was not then in vse Thirdly they did all communicate and then where was priuate Masse So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes with the antiquitie of this worde Masse is an inuincible argument whereby pryuate Masse doth fall Examine the places that they themselues bring thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within .380 yeares after Christ the worde was neuer named in any probable author whereby it sufficiently appeareth that it was neuer knowne in Christes time nor in his Apostles after him And thus much of this worde Masse The B. of Saris. Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian written in Greeke and in these Countreis neuer heard of nor seene before Harding The .19 vntruth It hath beene seene before Dering Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine and common the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these couÌ„treis Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth it hath beene séene But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels that it was neuer séene Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom if it had béene neuer séene howe could it haue bene written These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit néedes must sauour of malice It is the phrase of al laÌ„guages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saith Achilles they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians eueÌ„ in Achilles countrey So Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 O prophet of harmes thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon when he foretolde what tyme Troie should be destroyed In lyke maner sayth Euripides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There was neuer good son of an euill father yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz So in the common prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more auncient than the worlde we meane great continuance We say the same in Latine NunquaÌ„ tam palestricus praetor There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice meaning very seldome And in our english I neuer sawe such an other But what we meane by it that in déede was neuer doubted of neyther is Maister Harding so simple that he knoweth it not but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge then say nothing against Maister Iuell This is ynough to any indifferent reader to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings But read the replie and thou must néedes confesse it were thou neuer so parciall For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo Gelasius Bessarion which disalow this booke and how could that be if
Augustine speaketh not of Saint Mathew the .2 nor of Saint Andrew the .3 nor of Abdias his Maximilla the .4 nor of Abdias the .5 nor Gelasius speaketh of Abdias the .6 nor they two speak of Abdias Thus the whole being ioyned is but one true proposition yet out of it after his maner of cutting maister Harding hath carued .6 lies And thus much of lying Abdias The B. of Saris. Martial was so defaced in many places that it could not be reade Harding The .35 vntruth It could be read else hovv coulde it be printed Dering By gesse Why should not the printer haue as much liberty in printing this little olde booke as maister Harding vseth for proufe of his whole religion The Printer himselfe sayth prae nimia vetustate vix legi potuerunt for estreame age they could scarce be read Nowe where as maister Harding doth aske how then could they be printed I aske of him how Abdias was printed For of him his sorbonist Doctor wryteth he could neyther be read nor vnderstand An other might much better haue moued this doubt then maister Harding He is not now to learne what gesses may doe But howe soeuer he was printed sure this vntruth was not worth noting The B. of Saris. It is iudged by Iohn Colet and other graue men that Dionysius can not be that Areopagita Saint Paules disciple which is mencioned in the Actes Harding The .36 vntruth It is not iudged so by Iohn Colet The .37 vntruth They are no graue men that so iudge Dering These vntruthes can not be good that are made so fast nor yet so many as the maker would haue them when one is told so many tymes If this were vntrue that maister Iuell writeth yet were it not two vntruthes but one But bicause there is no remedie we will take them euen as they fall out As touching the former of these two it néedeth no aunswere Maister Harding doth not denie it but that Iohn Colet hath both spoken it and preached it then what skilleth it whether it be written his preaching is a witnes of his opinion though maister Harding say nay For this other vntruth that such other as deny this Dionysius to be the true Areopagita are no graue men he is sure no graue man that hath noted it I may aunswere this with the wordes of Saint Paule horum laus non ex hominibus sed ex deo these mens prayses are not of men but of God Maister Harding should not for his modesty sake haue noted it for an vntruth to call the godly fathers of our age graue men His belligods Popes Cardnals Friers Monkes Priestes others of that kenâ—ll haue not so much laboured in searching out the truth in fiue hundred yeares as these other haue done in fiftie But God hath giuen the increase his name be praysed for euer As touching this Dionysius whether we haue his workes or no it is a thing soone iudged How vnlike is it that the conuersion of Dionysius should be mencioned by Saint Luke in the actes of the Apostles yet he him selfe would not mencion it once in al his workes or if this might be yet what may we thinke of that that in all his booke he doth neuer so much as once name Paule May it yet be doubted whether he be that Dionysius which Paule conuerted Besides this S. Ierom making purposely a rehearsall of all ecclesiasticall wryters speaketh not one worde of this Dionysius Other auncient fathers doe neuer alleage him his owne bookes are so strauÌ„ge fansies of many secrete misteries that sure it is he is not the true Areopagita The. B. of Saris. Saint Iames Liturgie hath an especiall prayer for them that liue in Monasteries and yet it was â—erie rare to haue Monasteries built in all Saint Iames time Harding The .38 vntruth There is no mention of such Monasteries as we commonly meane when we speake of Monasteries Dering As be for Monasteries as Monasteries are to speake of the things themselues as they are in déede so to say of Monasteries as they be considered in this meaning of Monasteries so Monasteries and so forth a man should go farre that shoulde follow Maister Hardings wrangling The B. of Saris. Chrysostomes Liturgie prayeth for Pope Nicolas by these wordes Nicolai sanctiss vniuersalis Papae longa sint teÌ„pora We pray God sende Nicolas that most holy and vniuersall Pope a long time to liue But Pope Nicolas the first of that name was the seconde Pope after dame Ione the woman Pope Harding The .39 vntruth He prayth not for Pope Nicolas of Rome The .40 vntr There was no such woman pope Dering Nowe Maister Harding after he hath giuen so many offers and maketh neuer a wound he directeth his engines quite contrarie and assayeth if that he can giue the Pope a blowe Pope Nicolas sayth Chrysostome that most sacred and vniuersall Pope That is no good proufe sayth Maister Harding that he meaneth the bishop of Rome Here is a full subscription to the .4 article The authorities alleaged for the Popes supremacie are quite ouerthrowne to be called vniuersall bishop is no proufe of his supremacie Had Maister Harding wel considered it this vntruth had bene quoted some other where but doubting that this be not aunswere good ynough he letteth it go and graunting it to be sayde of Pope Nicolas therevpon he asketh this question If Chrysostome might not pray for Pope Nicolas how is the death of Moyses described in the bookes of the lawe There is no man sayth he so hardie to denie that Moyses wrote these bookes Be not afrayd good reader of these big words nor of M â–ª Har. daring All this is soone aunswered Either Eleazar or Iosue wroâ—e the .34 Chap. of Deuter. And they might well write of Moyses his death Or if Moyses wrote it he knew it by reuelation For so he himselfe wryteth The lorde hath saide vnto mée thou shalt not go ouer this Iordane Sure of a doctor of diuinitie this was a very simple question If he can shewe any such reuelation that Chrysostome haâ— of Pope Nicolas then let this be Chrysostomes Masse The .40 vntruth is concerning pope Ione who neuer did the sea of Rome more dishonesty then she hath stoode maister Harding in good stéed For both she helpeth out his Reioinder with vntruthes and maketh a great péece of his confutation of the Apologie But saith maister Harding there was no such woman Pope What skilleth it to this present matter whether there were such a Pope or no. A filthie Strumpet is good ynough for such a whoorish kingdome If there were such a one Pope Nicolas was seconde after hir Whether there were or no my profes are néedelesse my lord of Sarisburie hath resolued vs in that behalfe The B. of Saris. Now it were much for me to say that Chrysostome prayed for men by name 700. yeares before they were borne Harding The .41 vntruth I say
christo apostoli ab ipsis eorū acciperint successores We do surely beleue that that forme of wordes which are in our Canon the Apostles receyued of Christ and there successors of them If this sentence might preuaile then the case of consecration had ben cléere But it is well if the Popes friendes will not beleue him For my part I meane not to purchase him any credit Now resteth the .57 vntruth to examine whether Scotus and Innocentius doe say that benedixit he blessed worketh consecration Maister Harding standeth stiffely in it and doth aduenture his credite that they say it not and being to much inflamed against Maister Iuell he writeth with a good countenance that of al the men that euer wrote he had least cause to bring Scotus for his purpose and that he is very rashe in so doing And if thou wilt beleue him for a cleare iustifying of this vntruth he sayth that Scotus and Innocentius neuer said that benedixit worketh consecration Surely good Reader these desperate assertions might well make thée thinke that thy bishop had deceyued thée But be not yet to hastie of beliefe be simple as the done but be wise as the serpent yea euē as the Romish serpent that hath so well prouided for his yong ones His Prelates may not be accused without .72 witnesses Let not thou a good bishop be discredited with one slaūderous tongue His priestes may not be controlled of any lay man be he neuer so religious Let not thou Gods minister be blamed of an Apostata yea and as though they were not yet prouided for well ynough Pope Euaristus ordeyned that the people should not accuse them at all Yea and that whole Laterane councell vpon good warrant of that saying of S. Paule the seruant standeth or falleth vnto his lord by authoritie of that sacred assemblie they exempt them from such temporall iurisdiction Then let vs be somewhat ware in defence of a Godly Bishop that maister Hardings bolde reprehensions may not proue him faultie Scotus and Innocentius saith Maister Iuell doe say that benedixit worketh consecration That is a false lye sayth M. Harding Then vppon good tryall let the truth appeare and let vs here what the Authors themselues say Scotus in déede sayth thus verba consecrationis sunt quatuor hoc est corpus meum There are 4. wordes of consecration this is my bodye If Scotus had said no more then maister Harding had alleaged all But it followeth a little after sed haec verba hoc est corpus meum prolata sine praecedentibus non significant hoc absolute But these words pronounced without the other wordes going before do not absolutely signifie this that consecration is done Loe Scotus sayth not as maister Harding reporteth him that consecration is wrought by these foure but saith he there is no consecration if the wordes afore which are the blessing be left out And now to auoyde all vaine cauilling about these words G. Biel sayth speaking of the same matter Quid si verba praecedentia omitterentur Respōdetur licet hic Scotus sit alterius opinionis tamen hoc communiter tenent doctores quòd haec quatuor sola sufficiunt ad effectum cōsecrationis What if the words going afore be omitted it is aunswered though Scotus be here of an other opinion yet the common sentence of doctors is these foure are sufficient Here besides the manifest words of Scotus G. Biel is also a witnesse that as maister Iuell sayth this is the common opinion but Scotus thinketh that the wordes going before are necessarye If then Scotus owne wordes and G. Biel witnesse are better proufe of Scotus meaning than Maister Hardings imagination it is true that the consecration is wrought by the whole blessing And this other saying before alleaged by M. Harding must be thus qualified that in that place he saith those are the especiall words Thus is Scotus saying auouched by maister Harding disalowed by his owne plaine words and by the testimonie of Biel. Concerning Innocentius whether he thought consecration was wrought by benedixit he blessed if Maister Harding had regarded his owne credite he would not haue denied it The whole troupe of his doctours doe so alleage his opinion First Scotus saith Sacerdos profert illa verba quasi materialiter quia recitat ea sicut a Christo dicta vt patet per rationem praecedentē in Canone Christus autem quādo illa dixit non transubstantiauit panem in corpus quod probatur ex verbis illius Canonis quia ibi praemittitur benedixit Vnde dicetur quòd per illam benedictionem praecedentem consecrauit non per ista verba hoc est corpus meum Cui concordat Innocentius Concerning the thirde article it is saide that the priest speaketh those wordes as the matter of consecration bicause he recyteth them euen as they were spoken of Christ as it appeareth by that which goeth before in the Canon But Christ when he saide those wordes did not transubstantiate the breade into his body as lykewise is proued by the Canon For there it is sayde before he blessed whereof it is sayde that by that blessing he did consecrate not by those other words this is my body and of this opinion is Innocentius in his booke of the office of the Masse .3 part the .6 Chapt. and the .14 Here hast thou Innocentius auouched and his opinion confirmed by Scotus Now for the thirde point of this vntruth Where Maister Harding saith if Maister Iuell had any mo he would haue named them May it please him to reade Alexander de Ales Okam Gotfrey Albertus Biel Marcilius diuers other of his owne doctors Either he must accuse them all as lyers or there are other of this opinion Thus we sée these great exclamations whereto they fall that in one title he cannot iustifie one vntruth But whether maister Iuell had mo to alleage or no reade his defence of the Apologie thou shalt sée fo 208. The B. of Saris. Cardinall Bessarion Bishop of Tusculum writeth thus Harding The .58 vntruth He vvriteth not so Dering If shamelesse lying were punished in Loueine then no doubt maister Harding would be more ware what he wrote Now as may be thought impunity haue made him confident Let the booke be iudge of this vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it by what soeuer wordes consecration is made it standeth no◠in abolishing of natures as maister Harding teacheth Harding The .59 vntruth I teach not so Dering Certainly good reader this vntruth is very straunge M. Harding is a great mainteiner of transubstantiation in al his doing yet here to get one vntruth he is content to forsake it I doe not teach sayth he that consecration consisteth in the chaunging of natures If it be so then by consecration the nature of bread doth not chaunge into the nature of christs flesh to this I gladly yéelde Would God maister Iuell said here vntruely The
otherwise than the Euangelists reporte his words or else they could not agrée with their Masse this is a sufficient discharge of this vntruthe A good Christian before he sée better aucthoritie will beleue as the Gospell teacheth that we must first take it and eate it before it be Christes body so shall he sone sée the Idolatrie of a Popishe Masse The B. of Saris. If Christe instituted the Sacrament to the intent it should be first consecrate and then receiued of a companie c. Harding The .72 vntruthe This is a very grosse falsifying of my words Dering These are M. Hardings owne wordes in this Diuision Christ ordained y e Sacrament after Consecration done to be receiued eaten Of these words saith M. Iuel as is before alleaged if Christ. c. if I should héere aske of the indifferent Reader wherin is this grosse falsifying sure he could easily espie it But somewhat to helpe the Readers vnderstanding this it is where M. Harding hath to be receiued and eaten M. Iuell saith to be receiued of a companie if this be as it is in déede no fault whereto is this vnseasonable crying out of falsifying But if it shall séeme to be a fault then know that where M. Iuel alleageth M. Hardings owne wordes he printeth them in a distinct letter but this saying which so grieueth M. Harding is in the common letter of M. Iuels words wherby master Harding might haue wel vnderstand had he not bene disposed to wrangle that master Iuel alleaged them not as his expresse words but rather sheweth how he should haue made his saying plaine and this he proueth by authoritie of Bessarion and Gabriel Biel that after Consecration the sacrament be not receiued onely as maister Harding sayth but receiued of a company which word as it must so being expressely written master Harding did directly reason against himselfe The B. of Sarisb The .9 diuision Here vnawares he seemed to confesse that his Masse whatsoeuer substance it bear it is void both of good order and also of congruence Harding The .73 vntruth I confesse no such thing Dering You séeme to confesse it â–ª sayth M. Iuel Whether you doe or no let your words witnesse You say you are not bound to folow Christes example in order and congruence Nowe we may infer Christes order is only good therefore you folow no good order or congruence This is but a single vntruth The B. of Saris. The matter being so weightie and not yet throughly beleued c. Harding The .74 vntruth It hath bene beleued Dering When you proue this sure M. Iuel will subscribe you may make euery word in his booke as vntrue as this For he hath not one worde that soundeth towarde your religion if this may be noted for vntrue to say your Massing worshippings haue neuer bene throughly beleued you may note many moe vntruthes in this Replie For there is not one line that alloweth the Masse Read the next vntruthe The B. of Sarish The olde fathers call that the daily Sacrifice that Christ made once for all vpon the Crosse. Harding The .75 vntruthe The olde fathers call not the Sacrifice of the Crosse the daily Sacrifice Dering M. Iuel doth alleage Aug. secund Luc. serm 28. Ierom. in 1. Co. ca. 5. Germanus in Eccle. rerum theoria Irenae lib. 4. cap. 34. Tertul. aduer Iudaeos Amb. in 1. ad Tim. cap. 2. Examine the aucthorities and sée M. Hardings answere so thou shalt best iudge If I should enter into it it would require a long aunswere and nothing necessary What the Doctors wryte M. Iuel is thought to know as wel as M. Harding First reade and then iudge This is againe the .132 vntruthe And bicause we are againe fallen into mention of this Sacrifice which M. Harding said euen now hath bene throughly beleued let vs examine that vntruthe and trie if M. Harding be found true in his workmanship It hath bene throughly beleued saith he that the Priest doth offer vp to God the body and bloud of Christ vnbloudely in the remembraunce of that one bloudy Sacrifice of Christ. Reade of this in the Epistle the .31 leafe thou shalt haue it fully discussed only in this vntruth bicause the question lieth rather whether it hath bene beleued than whether the saying be true let vs a little consider of Christ him selfe his Apostles whether they haue beleued it First Christ in no one worde did giue vnto his Churche any commission of suche maner sacrifycing Christ saith often I giue vp my soule I Saâ—rifice my selfe no man doth it but I but vnto his Disciples he saith quo ego vado vos non potestis venire Whither I goe ye can not come By which wordes he taketh from them all power to Sacrifice him euen as it was afore tolde by Daniel that after Christ was once offred the Sacrifice and the Oblation should cease Not a word written wherby it may be gathered that we may offer vp Christ. And doth M. Harding thinke that in so weightie a matter as the remission of our sinnes that any thing is required of vs which is not commaunded vs It appeareth then in the time of Christ this was not beleued Did the Apostles beleue it after Christ S. Paule saith in that he died vnto sinne he died but once againe by one Oblation he made his perfite for euer and againe wher is remission of sinne there is no more sacrifice for sinne Then by S. Paule there is nowe no daily sacrifice for sinne except by Christes deathe we will that our sinnes be not forgiuen Againe S. Paule will haue vs folowe Christes example in the administration of Christes supper who teacheth vs of no Oblation for quicke and dead Againe the sacrifice cannot be made without a speciall priesthode but the Apostles doe teache vs that all suche Priesthode is abrogate If at any time the name of Oblation be mentioned in this age it is euer meant spiritually As is plaine Ro. 12. .16 Phil. 2. 1. Peter .2 for the real Sacrifice S. Peter is plain Christ hath caried our sinnes in his body vpon the woode and by his stripes we be healed and the effects of that one Sacrifice once made are purging of the sinnes of the whole world 1. Pe. 2. .3 1. Ioh. 2. 3. Ro. 4. Ephe. 1. eternall redemption Gal. 2. Ephe. 1. Rightuousnesse Ro. 3.4.8 2. Cor. 5. SaÌ„ctificatioÌ„ Eb. 10. Peace Ro. 5. Ioy of the spirite Ro. 4. Gal. 5. Newnesse of life Rom. 6. 1. Co 5. Loue of our neighboure 1. Ioh. 3. Eternall life 1. Ioh. 5. Ro. 6. then neither Christ nor his Apostles euer beleued it for the estate of the primatiue Churche how it beleued M. Harding hath nothing to say but referreth vs to the .xvij. Article of his former booke héere good Reader my labor is wel eased for séeing my Lord of Sarisburie hath answered al that matter who so wil be confirmed in that truthe he can
their hearts and giue them vnderstanding that they may once know and confesse that his Religion may not thus be framed to mannes fansie so in the latter day when they shall be accomptable for their doings they may be vnblameable in the sight of the highest The B. of Saris. He saith Communion is so called of that we Communicate togither Harding The .79 vntruthe He saith not together Dering It is a very strange propertie not to be ashamed to speake manifestly against the knowne signification of any worde it is muche more straunge to speake against it placed in suche a sentence where of force the signification must be graunted but it is moste straunge of all and in manner a singulare impudencie to note it for any vntruthe in one that will not so shamelesly speake without reason as an other dothe Such an vntruthe as this is it which now we haue in hand 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well knowne to signifie to Communicate together in the same time and place And in this sentence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Héere to say it can signifie any other thing it is very ignorant boldenesse But to note it for an vntruthe as maister Harding dothe it is bothe to be past shame and past grace The worde is well knowne that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie a cōmunitie of any thing together and therefore they be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which may haue felowship with the Congregation and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be in felowship with any man And bicause that Mercurie is sayd to be the messenger of the Pagane goddes to tell their errandes from them to any man therefore he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hauing a proper name of his proper office in that by him the Ethnikes did thinke they were made partakers of their gods counsell by which the propertie of this worde appeareth And consider good Reader what manner of Communion it is that M. Harding would make when the Priest saith Masse in the Church and calleth no body vnto him yet he sayth that al the Priestes in the world which say Masse at the same time doe Communicate with him and be made one body of Christe togither Héere I aske of M. Harding how he agréeth with S. Paule y t saith we are one bread one body bicause we all are partakers of one bread Marke reader because we eate of one bread we become one body saith S. Paule Bicause we say Masse at one time we become one body saith M. Harding though we eate not at all of the same breade Sure these two Doctoures doe not agrée S. Paule saith moreouer the bread which we break is it not the Cōmunion of the body of Christ M. Harding saith though we breake not the same bread but be eche one of vs by our selues at our altares yet it is the Communion of the body of Christ. Thus we sée S. Paule and M. Harding teache not bothe one Doctrine But it is no meruaile they are not guided bothe with one spirit S. Paule speaketh truthe and M. Harding falshead S. Paule the worde of God and master Harding his owne fansies as for this Communion of M. Hardings it was neuer knowne in the Church of God I remember there is a great bragger in Martial maketh euen suche an other he had euer in his mouth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 All things are common among frendes but saying thus so often when he would neuer bestow any thing among his neighbors the Poet saith this is a very straunge Communion Das nihil dicis Candide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So it goeth with M. Harding he euer saith of his Masse it is common it is common but he saith it only he calleth no man vnto him Sure say what he will this is but craking Candidus his Communion God be praised that we are deliuered from it And thus it appeareth it is no vntruthe to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to Communicate together ▪ as well bicause the worde it selfe is plaine as for that the scripture teacheth that the Communion must be so administred The B. of Saris. Basil reporteth an Ecclesiasticall Decree or Canon that at the receiuing of the holy Communion which he called mysticum Pascha there ought to be .xij. persones at the least and neuer vnder Harding The .80 vntruthe It is no Ecclesiasticall decree Dering M. Harding in this place is farre gone He is wont to controll very curiously false quotation in this place onlesse my boke deceiue me he is much ouerséene For I think it is in asceticis sermone primo Whether it bewell quoted or no it is truely reported S. Basils words are these Quemadmodum spiritualis lex non vult eos esse infra numerum duodenarium qui mysticum pascha edere debeant c. Euen as the spirituall or Ecclesiasticall decrée will not haue vnder twelue that shuld eate the mysticall passeouer c. Loe. S. Basil sayth it is an Ecclesiasticall Decrée Yet M. Harding saith it is no Decrée Beleue him not henceforth before thou trie him And the Doctors words wer as sone changed as he is redy to deny or affirme at aduentures thou couldest be sure of nothing but it is well the truthe doth not hang vpon his report Let him say while he will it is no decrée S. Basils wordes are plaine it is spiritualis lex If M. Harding had not made wrangling his hope in these vntruthes this had not bene numbred He may as well blame the Euangelistes for alleaging the Prophets And no doubt if M. Iuell should follow the faithfull sense as the Euangelists doe and let passe words Maister Harding would finde fiue lies in one line Such truthe he vseth in these vntruthes The B. of Saris◠It appeareth by S. Augustine and certaine olde Canons that in the Primatiue church the Priest and people sometime did Communicate after supper Harding The .81 vntruthe The .11 diuision It appeareth not Dering This vntruthe is sone answered For M. Harding graunteth that it appeareth by s. Augustine some receiued on Maūdie thursday after supper but saith he that is not sometime For saith he he that saith somtime meaneth oftner than once a yeare Now if it were possible that once a yeare might be sometime then were it necessary that M. Harding did wrangle But bicause once a yeare is no time let vs sée if it may be proued that it was done oftner First whether it be or no S. Augustine is at a point and saith faciat quisque quod in ea Ecclesia in quam venerit inuenit Let euery one doe after the custome of that Church in which he cōmeth it appertaineth neither vnto faith nor vnto good maners therefore whether a man receiue the Cōmunion fasting or no so he receiue in the Lord it skilleth not muche Now what they haue done in the primatiue Church let vs as I haue said enquire It appereth in
should abide still in those Elements S. Iohn dothe witnesse that in Christ it is accomplished what so euer was wanting in those outwarde Ceremonies And for a token of that fulnesse of grace in Christ that in him is found all that reconciliation figured in the law either by bloud or water he writeth that out of his side issued both bloud and water By the bloud he hath purged vs from our sinnes and done out the handwriting of ordinaunce that was against vs and fastened it vpon the Crosse. And that as Paule saith not by the bloud of Goates and calues but by his owne pretious bloud gushing out of his side by which he is entred into the holy place which is heauen and is become the tabernacle the sacrifice and the priest and hath obtained eternall redemption for vs. By the water we are assured that this benefite doth come vnto vs bothe bicause by water we be regenerate and also bicause it signifieth the people so that this miracle of bloud and water in the death of our sauior Christ is the performance of that which God had promised by his Prophet saying In that day shalbe a fountaine opened to the house of Dauid and to the inhabitants of Ierusalem for sinne and for vncleanesse And thus by this water and bloude gushing out of the side of our Sauior we are taught two especiall pointes of the Christian faithe the one that by Christ alone all sinnes are purged the other that in the new Testament we haue but two Sacraments the one of the Lordes death the other of Baptisme which two resembled in this bloud and water haue in them the whole mysterie of our full redemption And thus the remembrance of this same place is the greatest comfort that a Christian soule can haue in the world But Lord those Papists which peruert Gods scriptures what Doctrine haue they gathered of this comfortable saying First that we must haue water mingled with y e wine in the Chalice which in this place be it neuer so ancient yet it hath no ground at all But they goe farther than this they say that the soldiers name was Lungis bicause it is written 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And least there should want any thing to make vp the tale they say that he was strokē blind and then by this bloud and water he receiued his sight againe and so was conuerted wherupon they haue made him a Saint and so now we may kepe the feast of S. Lungis the blinde Knight Yet sure suche canonising is worthe as little mony as these vntruthes had muche idle labor The B. of Saris. Now to reueale the secretes of M. Hardings mysteries touching the same that one drop or two must be poured on the ground Harding The .96 vntruthe The pouring of the water on the ground is no parte of our mysteries Dering When M. Harding cannot defende their too beastly vsage of Gods holy sacraments he thinketh he can salue the whole matter with Hick scorner and saying that we belie their mysteries and I pray M. Hue railer that please your self so wel with Hicke scorner is this no parte of your mysteries Can you now deny them Be ye ashamed of them It skilleth not greatly what you think of this The misterie of iniquitie that so long hath wrought in your sinagoge hath brought many moe abhominations into the Churche of God all which the Lord shall abolishe with the brightnesse of his worde Whether you make great a doe about these things héere alleaged let your Doctors be the iudges Read Scotus in sent 4. dist 11. qu. 6. Biel in 4. sent dist 11. qu. 2. in can miss lect 35. all your other Doctors entreating the same matter Yet whether one or two drops and no moe must be poured downe or no I cōfesse I do not know But why do you stand so in this point It is a very learned doubt in respect of their other folish questions Biel disputeth whether the Priest at Masse doe consecrate all the bread in the market and all the wine in the sellers and concludeth that if he stande so as he may sée it and meaneth to doe it he dothe no doubt consecrate euery whit But now aske Gabriel Biel an other question how shall the Priest doe to take all the bread in the market in his hand as the Masse booke requireth of that which shall be consecrate This is an other doubt which M. Hardings Doctors would surely haue discussed if they had heard it Scotus asketh what if the priest die before he speake all the words how shall then consecration goe forewarde Other aske what if a droppe of wine hang on the outside of the Chalice whether is that consecrate and what if the wine doe fréese in the Chalice and what if the Priest at Masse do remember that when he washt his mouth in the morning a drop of water wēt downe his throte whether should he receiue none sith he had broken his fast or whether should he let all alone Other aske whether Christ be in the Pix euen as he was on the Crosse with his clothes and crowne of thornes about his head And what should I recite all which are almost infinite A thousand such vnreuerent questions they haue disputed in whole volumes Yet now sayth M. Harding they be none of our mysteries Belike he doth yet but hobbe roue he will not go roundly with his Lord God the Pope But happy were he if as he refuseth these vaine questions so he wold renounce that whole adulterous religion The B. of Saris. Nowe it appeareth that the Churche is not yet resolued vpon one intention For the intention of the Churche of Rome is to worke transubstantiation of breade and wine the Greeke Church had neuer that intention as is plaine by the Councell of Florence The intention of the Church of Rome is to Consecrate with Christes words The intention of the Greeke Churche is to Consecrate with prayers Harding The .97 vntruth The Church is resolued vpon one intention The .98 vntruthe The church of Rome intendeth not Transubstantiation The .99 vntruth This is not plaine by the Councel of Florēce The .100 vntruthe The Greeke church dothe not consecrate vvith prayers Dering Now M. Hardings vntruthes go roundly forward If this haste may haue good spéede I warrant him his number But if this haste doe make waste he is neuer a whit the neare Let vs sée then how these vntruths are gathered The first is this The Church is agréed vpon the Priests intent But this can not be so if the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome doe not agrée which is the .2 vntruthe And they can not agrée if the one will haue transubstantiation the other will not haue it which is the third vntruthe And they will haue the one Transubstantiation the other not if the one doe consecrate with these wordes this is my body the other with prayers which is the .4
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith
patched togither the Apologie For the printed sermon it is well confirmed by the Replie and the Replie is not yet found blameable notwithstanding this Reioinder the Apologie that he liketh to terme patched now after the time that God had apointed it doeth not want my defence the booke is pretious and is defended by suche a Iuell that all the treasuries in the world God make him thankful wil not buy his gifts therfore M. Hardings words cā not hurt him The B. of Sarisb Christ is set forth not to be receiued with the mouth for that as Cyrill saith were a grosse imagination Harding The .104 vntruthe Christ must be receiued with the mouth The .105 vntruthe Cyrill saith not so Dering This is one with the .102 vntruthe Master Hardings transubstantiation standeth him in very good stead to multiply his vntruthes And yet if he had well considered it it had not bene worth his doubling I haue spoken somewhat héereof in the Epistle Concerning this other vntruth M. Harding saith he knoweth not what he graunteth These are Cyrillus wordes but he gesseth at an other sense and vpon that surmise quoteth a new vntruthe Dothe he claime so muche to his owne vnderstanding that if he say it it must be so though y e words be contrary Before we build of his saying it shalbe néedeful for him to win some better credite Sée the place thou wilt beare witnesse that it is truely alleaged The B. of Saris. The .14 Diuision For the partie excommunicate being a priest might say he wold say Masse and so receiue the Communion euen with the bishop of whome he were excommunicate Harding The .106 vntruthe The Priest excommunicate might not say Masse lawfully Dering No sure whether he were excommunicate or no he might not say it lawfully neither by Gods law nor his holy Euangelies when M. Iuel saith this I will subscribe The B. of Sarisb Now if M. Hardings principle stand for good that the priest saying his priuate Masse may receiue the Communion with all others in other places c. Harding The .107 vntruthe I say not he may receiue with others Dering M. Harding is past shame wold God as I haue said often he were not past grace if these be not his words Therefore that one may Communicate with an other though they be not togither in one place it may be proued by good authoritie then will I subscribe if they be his words then iudge thou of his doing The B. of Saris. Heere marke good Christian reader then they Communicated saith Irenaeus when they met in the Church Harding The .108 vntruthe Irenaeus saith not so reade it againe and marke it better Dering These are Irenaeus words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 These words if as M. Harding requesteth we reade them againe and marke them better then no doubt they are thus in English These things being thus they Communicated together and in the Churche Anicetus gaue to Polycarpus the Eucharist Héere saith M. Iuel by this it appeareth they communicated when they met in y e church That is not so saithe M. Hard. Read it once again marke it better If often reading and better marking may serue the turne then gentle reader I craue also thy labour read it yet once againe and marke it better Yea read it while thou wilt and marke it how thou canst if this fansie of M. Hardings do but once come in thy minde I may boldely make thée this large offer let these all be vntruthes His fansie is so full of foly his imagination so vaine his interpretation so childish that if thou of thy self cāst finde it out I say as I said before let all these vntruthes stande Reade it I beséeche thée once againe and marke it better Is not this a straunge vntruthe that no mā can espie it but M. Harding But sith it is so that héere can be no vntruthe without M. Hardings good instruction let vs aske of him how it may be falsified He telleth vs of two faults the first in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they communicated the seconde in Englishing Eucharistia the sacrament Mary saith he yet I will define nothing that is I will stande to neither of them Is not this a straunge dealing that he wil first finde fault then will not bide by it and yet notwithstanding wil score vp his vntruthe If this vntruthe be vntruthe why will he not abide by it Or if he will not abide by it why doth he say it is vntrue must his priuate Masse his halfe communion his outlandishe prayers his Popes supremacie yea his vntruthes and all be proued by paraduenture But let it be so what is it at the last that héere may chance be false this it is in the first fault about communion peraduenture forsoth they communicated before they met This blinde peraduenture wer it in Cambridge or Oxford no doubt it wold be hissed out of the scholes The second fault found in translating Eucharistia y e sacrament is this peraduenture Eucharistia here doth signifie sacerdotale mynisterium the priestly office Now sure good reader this is a straunge aduenture Eucharistia the priests office Fie on such a chance except a man had a priuiledge to make words sound what him listed No mā I trow wold haue made this aduenture But héere I must desire the reader to loke a little back to take the better view of M. Hardings dealing in the Epistle where M. Harding sporteth him self with his good artillerie he saith he could neuer shote at this mark that Eucharistia might be taken not for the Sacrament but for cōmon bread Now either by meanes of lighter arowes or a better loose he shootes a great way beyōd it saith with a good countenance y ◠Eucharistia is no bread at al but y e priests office Sure this is very vncertain shooting and can neuer stand with a good archer A man may shoote long at the Etymologie of y e word ere he bring it to this significatiō Though he haue determined to say little truely yet he shold haue taken héede how he had spoken so vnwisely That other tragicall exclamation that Eucharistia must be taken simply for bread consecrate bewrayeth this close dealing that it may be taken for the Priestes office And héere againe for a good note of M. Hardings fals dealing we haue to mark that in this place where M. Iuell sayth Eucharistia may be taken for common bread but yet apointed for the Communion M. Harding doeth not quote it for an vntruthe yet in the Epistle he noted it for a great heresie And why doeth he thus As it may be thought bicause he foresawe that to deny the Eucharist at any time to note bread not yet consecrate were a great preiudice to his grosse distinction that it might signifie the Priests office and therefore for the better conueyaunce of this absurditie he wold not quote that an vntruth which he had so greatly impugned before
not the sacrifice of the crosse the daily sacrifice Here vpon better aduise he reuoketh his absolute assertion and doeth qualifie it with maister Iuels meaning So if maister Harding doe not truely gather maister Iuels meaning vpon a false surmise he hathe made two vntruthes But bicause we are come againe to mention of this Sacrifice I will shew thée what is our Sacrifice for the purging of our sinnes First for thy better instruction thou must learne wherein standeth the controuersie betwixt the Papists and vs. They say they doe daily in their Masse offer vp Christ vnto his father a propitiation for our sinnes We say that Christ hath purged vs from our sinnes and that with the Sacrifice of his owne precious bodie and bloud but that sacrifice Christ himself did once make vpon the Crosse neither can any mortall man offer him any more Now if we can shewe that Christes reall body is no more offered vnto his father then is not only this no vntruthe but all maister Hardings religion is deuelishe and wicked Let vs sée then what the scriptures doe teache vs vntill the time that our sauior Christ did die This Sacrifice is often mentioned that it should be made when he had once died it is neuer mentioned but as already done Before he was conceiued in his mothers wombe the angell said his name should be Iesus For he should saue his people from their sinnes When he was born he was called the saluation which God had prepared before the face of all people When he was Christened Iohn said of him beholde the Lambe of God which taketh away the sinnes of the worlde The Lambe in this place after the Hebrue phrase dothe signifie the sacrifice or the offering And Christ him selfe When I shall be exalted I will draw all vnto my selfe By these and all those other places which are of the Passion of Christ it is manifest that the time was appointed when this sacrifice should be once made But when this sacrifice was done Christ said vpon the crosse consummatum est all was finished and in token that there was no more sacrifice to be made for sinne the baile of the temple did rende from the toppe to the foote Nowe after this sacrifice once finished not one title in the whole scriptures of any propiciatorie sacrifice to come but vpon this one and once made repentaunce must be preached to all the world and forgiuenesse of sinne with this promise annexed that whosoeuer doeth beleue and is Baptised shall be saued Thus we sée from the beginning of our iourney vntill we come to the place which our sauior hath prepared for vs in heauen we haue no sacrifice to passe by but that alone which Christ made vpon the Crosse that alone is called daily bicause it is an euerlasting intercession for vs vnto his father What soeuer Sacrifices the papacie hath inuented they are beside this and they are nothing else but snares which the Deuill hathe laid to entrappe our soules and call vs from the only trust in Christes merites An other proofe that the sacrifice of the Crosse may onely be called daily is well declared in all the wrytings of the Apostles where no one time either priest or altare or sacrifice or oblation is mentioned but onely in a spirituall vnderstanding You be made a spiritual house a holy priesthode to offer vp spirituall sacrifice vnto God saith S. Peter He hathe made vs kings and priestes vnto God euen his Father saith S. Ihon and S. Paule doeth call our bodies a liuing sacrifice holy and acceptable vnto God And againe Christ our passeouer is Sacrificed for vs therefore let vs kéepe the feast not with olde leauen neither in the leauen of malitiousnesse or wickednesse but with the vnleauened bread of sinceritie and truthe And to the Hebrues we haue an altare of which it is not lawfull for them to eate that serue in the tabernacle And againe let vs offer the sacrifice of praise alwayes vnto God that is the fruite of our lippes which confesse his name In diuers other places bothe by the prophets and apostles we be taught that these are the onely Sacrifices left vnto vs in the Newe Testament Then what desperate boldnesse is it for vs to make our selues new sacrifices without the worde of God the instruction of the holy Ghost or any coloure of sufficient aucthoritie I néede not adde how it fighteth directly with the Scriptures They say the priest doeth offer vppe Christ. But Christ neuer saith he is offred vp by any other but by himselfe I doe sanctifie my selfe for them and I doe giue my life for my shéepe And againe I doe giue my life and againe I will take it no man dothe take it from me but I will giue it of mine owne will And Paule saith he that loued me and gaue himselfe for me And to the Hebrues in the beginning of this booke it is written of me that I shold do thy wil O God this same is often shewed in the .5.9 and .10 Chapters to the Hebrues but in al the scripture not one word that euer Christ is offred by other They say he is offred daily but in all the scriptures he is said to be offred but once In that he died saith Paule he died once and to the Hebrues with one oblation he made them perfect for euer And in the same Epistle the vij Chapter Christ is said to be suche a priest as néeded not to make moe sacrifices for sinnes or offer himselfe daily For he did once sanctifie vs. And againe by his owne bloud he entred once into the holy place And againe in the ende of the world he appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrifice of himselfe And againe Christ hath once suffred to take away sinnes And againe hauing made one Sacrifice for sinne he sittes for euer at the right hand of his father And in conclusion the scripture taketh away all other sacrifice and saithe where remission of sinne is there is no more Oblation for sinne Yet wil they néedes haue a daily sacrifice What a miserable religion is that which in matters of the greatest waight hath not one word to vphold it in the scriptures But as the thing it selfe is the sinke of Idolatrie so marke it wel and thou shalt sée how wickedly they vse it Our sacrifice say they is the applying of that sacrifice which Christ made vpon the crosse And hereupon M. Harding doth often say that no Masse is priuate bicause it is made for all the people but examine this by the worde of God and sée how it agreeth The scripture saith the benefites purchased by Christes sacrifice is offred vnto vs by the worde not by the Masse You are borne a newe by the worde of God who liueth and indureth for euer And we haue felowship with God with his sonne Iesus Christ by the worde which is declared
dominicum vntill the next sunday Then of like they receiued euery sunday This argumeÌ„t saith M. Harding is slender a learned man will be ashamed of it And he answereth it with an other argument if thou wilt haue a paterne of a good one marke it well The wordes are saith he quando communicat when she dothe communicate Ergo she did not communicate euery sunday He that will reprehend M. Iuels argument it is reason himself should haue made a better By suche reasons we may conclude what we wil. When she did communicate therfore she did it not euery sunday Then when we go to dinner we sit downe Therfore we goe not to dinner euery day Suche prooues may be soone made Biside this M. Harding chalengeth the translation but that is not worthe answering Alias is commonly vsed for the next fallacia alia aliam trudit Nos alia ex alijs in fata vocamur Aliud ex alio malum Ex alio in aliud vicissitudo And if we say in Englishe we must tary for another terme euery wise man doth vnderstand it we must tary til the next terme Thus hear appeareth no insufficiencie in M. Iuels proofe but muche folowing M. Hardings vntruthe The B. of Saris. Likewise Socrates writeth thus in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say to haue a congregation or assembly by theÌ„selues Harding The .168 There are no suche words in that place in Socrates Dering False quotation needeth no great excuse The B. of Saris. Let Missa be taken for the Masse that is for the ministration of the Sacraments Harding The .169 It doth not signify the ministration of the sacrameÌ„ts Dering Betwéene M. Stapleton and M. Harding maister Iuel can say nothing without blame The sixth vntruthe noted by maister Iuel out of maister Hardings answer is this S. Andrew said the Communion and not the Masse In the returne of this vntruth saith maister Stapleton you speake fondly the Masse and the Communion is al one Héere saith maister Iuel let the Masse be taken for the Communion That is an vntruthe saith maister Harding it can not be so taken Thus we sée these men are at a point speake maister Iuel what he wil so long as he speaketh truthe he shall not escape blame Whether Missa may signifie the Communion or no. Reade more in the .17 vntruthe The B. of Sarisb Verily it is prouided by the decree it selfe that in priuate Chappels there should be a lawfull and an ordnarie company Harding The .170 vntruthe It was not prouided Dering To make this vntruthe perfect M. Harding hath bound it with a double asseueration verily verily this is a false lie But surely surely there is little honesty to vse so muche wrangling where the matter it selfe is plaine The words of the decrée are these vt ibi missas teneat propter fatigationem familiae iusta ordinatione permittimus we permit that in due order for the wearinesse of his housholde he may haue Masse in his priuate Oratorie Now though maister Harding goe not the right way to proue his priuate Masse that goeth to séeke it out in priuate chappels yet let vs way well what this permission is The decrée saith iusta ordinatione or iusto ordine so without due order it might not be not in priuate Oratories and to haue it with order was to haue a number of Communicantes So this permission yet makes no priuate Masse Againe the decrée saith propter fatigatiouem familiae for the wearinesse of the housholde whereby it appeareth the householde must communicate For if they should not haue gon to church how should they haue ben werie of going theÌ„ was there not yet priuate Masse Thirdly it was graâ—â—ted in those parishes in which beside that householde there was legittimus ordinariusque conuentus in which there was beside a sufficient companie What neded this exception if the Priest might haue sayd Masse receiued aâ—one Litle companie will serue to make one communicate Thus we sée Maister Harding doeth no where speake more aduisedly than where he maketh most constant asseueration The B. of Saris. Vincentius writeth after Gregorius was dead Bonifacius ruled the church of Rome This Boniface obtained of the Emperour Phocas that the church of Rome should be the head of all churches and that bicause the church of Constantinople wrote it selfe by that title The next yeare after that Augustine that was called the English mens bishop died The yeare folowing Iohn the Almonar was in great fame at which time also Mahomet first spred his religion in Arabia Harding The .171 vntruth Vincentius vvriteth not so Dering If thou knowest not what wrangling is now learne Maister Harding findeth here diuerse faults The first that Bonifacius was not next Gregorie and true I think it be Sauinianus was one yere betwene and what skilleth that to priuate Masse Or why should Maister Iuel of purpose speake here vntruly It is very probable he might forget the order of the Popes that was so occupied to set out Gods religion This was not worth the noting Another fault is where Vincentius saith Augustine the firstâ— English Bishop Maister Iuel saith thus Augustine that was called the English bishop What contention aboute words is this â–ª Another fault is bi cause he alleageth not one sentâ—nce where Vincentius doeth commend the Almonars libâ—ralitie Except Maister Iuell would haue filled his booke with idle words this was nothing necessarie He searcheth 〈…〉 what I killeth it then to alleage hiâ— coâ—â—â—â—dations We reade in Plato that a 〈…〉 was euer wonâ— to make suche aâ—nswerâ—s â–ª when Cherephon asketh Polus what science Gorgias professeth Polus always is vp with a speciall commendation of it and neuer tels what it is But Socrates sayd that was nothing to the purpose there was no man dispraised it so what helpeth it when we aske of the Almonars age to alleage Vincentius commendation of him No man disprayseth him we séeke for his age we enquire not of his qualities lette the man alone The fourthe faulte is that he parteth this saying What tyme Mahomet spred his religion in Arabia in the distincte letter of the Doctours allegations This doyng helpeth Maister Iuell neuer a whit For if it be true what skilleth it who sayth it Againe if the Printer make not his letters well Maister Iuell is not to blame Here are foure faulteâ— founde without salte or â—auoure yet there is an other and that is that aboute this time Mahomet spred not his religion For he beganne sayth Maister Harding in the latter time of Heraclitus the Emperour Maister Harding is verie supersticious in computation of times or this would séeme to bée a verie â—ender 〈◊〉 Phocas began his raigne in the yeare of our Lord .604 three yeares after that Bonifacius was made Pope â–ª 607. it was foure yeares after that Iohn the Almonar shoulde saye this Masse Anno .610 within .xix. yeareâ— after in the ninetene yeare of Heraclitus
his priuate Masse hath sought for Iohn Almonar in a priuate Chapple but the question is moued of the open church This Iohn Almonar liued at the least .610 yeares after Christ. The question is of .600 yeares onely So this fable may be well reiected both for that it is nothing to the purpose and if it were yet it is without the compasse of .600 yeares Yet Maister Iuel admitting the proofe doeth proue that it is a verie fable His reason is bicause no man might saye Masse at home Here let vs make the best of Maister Hardings aunswere and it is thus They might not say Masse in theyr houses but they might say them in their Chappels This aunswere is very absurde For who would say masse in his parlour or hall or kitchin hauing a Chapple And it is knowne to be false and taken away by Gracian saying Vnicuique fidelium in domo sua oratorium habere licet et ibi orare missas autem ibi concelebrare non licet euery man may haue a Chapple in his house pray there but he may not haue Masse in it Thus appeareth how vaine Maister Hardings exception is against these former authorities for that they haue in Domibus in their houses when Gracian alleaging the councell of Auleria vseth this word oratorium a Chaple notwithstanding Maister Harding concludeth thus we must seeke for better stuffe this is nothing worth so much securitie haue these men promised them selues that whatsoeuer they speake they think it shalbe beleued The B. of â–ª Saris. Maister Harding translateth falsâ—ly cum benedixisset sancta â–ª when he had consecrate the Sacrament Likewise post finem orationum after the prayer of consecration Harding The .177 vntruthe That translation is true The .178 vntruthe That translation is true Dering Now that this Apostata hath vomited vp a litle poisoned affection against the blessed bishop of Sarisburie he is laide downe againe like a swine to wallow in his former mire and as blinde bayard running forth he knoweth not whether quoteth mo vntruthes of his owne making My translation saith he is true His reasoÌ„ is this some doctors doe expounde benedicere for consecrare therefore that is so And the Grecians said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis therfore sancta is the Sacrament If Maister Harding that in his long epistle would so faine haue ben Appelles could with all his cunning picture out these argumentes we should haue the right shape of a fooles bable Benedicere saith he is construed of S. Ambrose by consecrare ergo it is so But it is construed otherwise by the Euangelists therefore it is not so Where S. Mathew and S. Marke say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had blessed he brake S. Luke and S. Paule say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thankes he brake Yea bothe Mathewe and Marke them selues say of the cuppe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thanks he gaue it Then if Benedixit be he did consecrate then Gratias egit is also he did consecrate and so the .180 vntruthe is verified that master Harding calleth some things that are not as if they were And I would faine know why maister Harding cleaueth so to this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it maketh nothing for his transubstantiation It is written in the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God blessed the seuenth day yet he turned not the nature of it So God speaketh vnto Abraham 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Surely in blessing I will blesse thée yet God vsed no manner of consecration so saith S. Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who hath blessed vs in all manner of spirituall blessing In diuers other places of holy scripture thisword is vsed yet no where for this straunge manner of transubstantiation or other consecration than which we say in Latine consecrare which is to giue vp to ordaine to appoynt to an holy vse though it may be well said of the sacrament yet it is not in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that why he should translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to consecrate there is no cause except suche cause as will haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie nothing But saithe maister Harding some Doctors haue translated Benedicere by Consecrare Let vs graunt it suche is the libertie of speache that some worde is vsed in an impropre signification Dothe it folow bicause Benedicere may be to consecrate therfore Benedicere sancta is to consecrate the sacrament This gathering is very childishe Extruo is to builde vp Therfore is extruere mensam to build or make a table Interpello is to disturbe or interrupt therefore is interpellare debitoreÌ„ to interrupt or disturbe your debtour Expendere is to consider therfore is expendere poenas to consider punishment Sure this is a very idle proofe though Benedicere were to consecrate and sancta were the sacrament But now it is shewed that Benedicere is not to consecrate and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not the sacrament as Maister Iuel sheweth out of Chrysostome And in da de what reason is it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis should be the sacrament not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctorum should be likewise the sacrament Now for as muche as maister Harding cleaueth so vnto the Doctors that what so euer they say he straight taketh it for an Oracle we may say vnto him as our Sauior said vnto the Iewes Euen Moses in whome you trust shall be a witnesse against you so the Doctors shall be witnesses against master Harding and his felowes that when the Doctors do require to be iudged by the scriptures yet they without scriptures will ground their faith vpon them Cursed be he saith the Prophet that trusteth in man and maketh fleshe to be his arme For my parte I reuerence the Doctors and praise God for them they were good stewards and dispensed faithfully the goodes that were committed vnto them they were men of excellent learning great diligence and godly life and haue sufficiently confuted maister Hardings religion but yet they were men and had all their erroures Tertullian sayd God had a body and therefore he was reprehended of Augustine He thought not well in all poyntes of our sauioure Christe as appeareth in his bookes de Trinitate and aduersus Hermogenem Praxeam where he teacheth that Christe is a portion of his father Origen in diuers places wryteth very wickedly as appeareth by Epiphanius annumbring him among heretikes Cyprian sayde that Christe did satisfie onely for Originall sinne Methodius sayd we are iustified by fulfilling the lawe of nature as Epiphanius reporteth These were wicked heresies The doctors that folowed after had also many and great faultes I néede not recken maister Hardings Doctors Clemens Abdias Martialis Dyonisius Hyppolitus and suche other
no partie which way so euer you interprete them declareth a great want of good matter to proue the thing it selfe which lieth in controuersie If these woords be not in the same place yet the very allegation of the gréeke text is a sufficieÌ„t proofe they are found in the author And therefore if false quoting the place be the greatest fault let it go for me it is not worthy no answere The B. of Saris. It was forbidden by many decrees to mynister the sacrament in priuate houses Harding The .185 vntruthe It was not forbidden Dering Untruthes may wel grow in number where one may be reckened so many times Read the .176 vntruthe The B. of Saris. M. Harding hath violently and of purpose falsified the traÌ„slation Harding The .186 vntruthe My translation is true Dering Tell on in a circle M. Harding and then your vntruthes shall neuer haue end Read the .177 vntruthe The B. of Saris. The life of S. Basil hath bene set for the fully and faithfully by Gregorie Nissene Gregorie Nazianzene Gregorie Presbyter Socrates Theodoretus Sozomenus and Nicephorus Harding The .187 vntruthe His life is not set out fully by them Dering God be mercifull vnto vs and when his good will and pleasure is deliuer vs from such wranglers Is not a mannes life set out fully when it is shewed what he hath done openly in the congregation How he hath remoued from place to place What doctrine he hath taught What diligence he hathe vsed What trouble he hathe suffred What enimies he hath had Whose companie he hath frequented What learning he hath studied What promotion he hath gotten How many yeares he hath liued And what euer else he hathe from time to time openly done or suffred All this is declared onely by Gregorie Nazianzene in his Monodia in his Oration De laudibus Basilij and in sundry his Epistles so that what soeuer maister Iuel saith he alone hath done it and that he ment so to doe it is plaine inough for as much as he entituleth his booke De vita Basilij and yet though Nazianzene had not done so muche but all these among them had written this so fully maister Iuels woords had bene true So there is nothing héere to be said for maister Harding but either he wrangleth or misse vnderstandeth The B. of Saris. None of them was so impudent once to make any mention of this pieuishe tale of M. Hardings Masse Harding The .188 vntruthe Vincentius maketh mention of it Dering Reade this tale of Amphilochius Vincentius his words and thou maist hardly think that Vincentius being so full of olde wiues fables as he is would so lightly haue passed ouer this wonderous matter of S. Basill Maister Harding him selfe who is much more temperate in such maner of miracles than Vincentius is by no meanes could let it passe without much practise of his eloqueÌ„ce By this it may be thought that Vincentius neuer knew it or if he knew it he was ashamed to write it being so manifest a lie least he should haue discredited his whole fardle of newes Thus much yet he saith that may sound toward it that God did teach Basil in a vision to offer vp sacrifice with his owne words And vpon this saying Maister Harding aduentureth the quoting of his vntruth To discharge this it were vnnecessarie labour considering the tale is so foolish yet for Amphilochius and Vincentius sakes that one of them may be founde a lier I will a little lay these authors togither Amphilochius saith the next daye after this Masse was done Basil made a golden doue to hang ouer the altar and he put the third part of the host into it Vincentius sayth Basil being at that miraculous Masse Columba aurea quae cum sacramento domini super altare pendebat c. the golden pigeon which did hang ouer the altar with the sacrament of the Lord did not moue thrée times as it was wont to doe c. Bicause a certaine deacon was talking with a womaÌ„ Héere we sée Amphilochius saith the pigeon was made the next day Vincentius saith if hong long before ouer the altar And that the tale may haue one 〈◊〉 of Vincentius office he saith at euerie sataring the pigeon was wont to moue thrice Againe Amphilochius saith there was no bodie but Eubulus that looked in at a creuise Vincentius saith there was a deacon talking with a woman and therefore the pigeon could not moue and so either one of these two Doctours make a lie and then Maister Harding proueth his priuate Masse with a lie or else Basil said Masse twice after his owne fashion and then this is no vntruth But saith Maister Harding Antonius doeth also report this Masse saying I graunt he doeth so And so doth Aesope that apes and asses spake But I trow Maister Harding doeth not beleue him no more doth any wise man his Antonius He y t list to haue y e fabler reproued let him reade the booke The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith that after Basils retourne from Pontus Ensebius knew him not Harding The .189 vntruth I assure you my booke hath it not Dering Belike Maister Hardings Amphilochius is but a patched boke But if he wil go to that other at Verona in Italie which is faire written in velem there sure he shal finde it The B. of Saris. Nazianzen saith that Basil was not Bishop of Caesarea in Iulianus time Harding The .190 vntruth Nazianzen saith not so Dering Maister Harding in his Reioinder saith thus Perhaps it is true that Nazianzen was not then Bishop of Caesarea but yet Nazianzen â—aith it not Now sure good Reader without all perhappes Maister Harding is a verie wrangler that when he can not denie the thing yet will stick so dainely vpon the words But say M. Har. what he say wil both Nazianzen al other writers which do speke of Basils doing doe beare witnesse of this matter Nazianzen reporteth how vpon dissention betwene him Eusebius he went into Pontus And when Valens for y e furtheraÌ„ce of Arrian heresie came to Caesarea and vexed much the faithfull Nazianzen was sent to Basil to call him home for the aide of the church vpon which returne he was reconciled to Eusebius in like authoritie gouerned the church Now this being done in the time of Valens who was after Iouinian and Basil yet no Bishop is it not then plaine that Amphilochius is a lier which sayth Basill was Bishoppe in Iulians time which was Emperour next before Iouinian Yf there were no more to say but this yet this would proue Maister Harding were impudent in this vntruth But Nazianzen speaketh yet more plaine he saith Basil was made bishop in Eusebius roome after the death of Valens about the yeare of our Lorde .380 And for an vndoubted proofe that he was no Bishoppe in Iulianus time Basill him selfe writeth that he was made chiefe of the church of Caesarea when the Arrian
is in vaine but that the oblation is in vaine making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation But this matter doth not so well thriue as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick and dead sith the sacrifice can onely be ment by the oblation But let vs take Maister Hardings words as they are The oblatioÌ„ saith he is in vaine to the people that will not come Here he speaketh not onely against his companions but against the Pope and against his Masse booke The decrée saith the oblation is good that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem that is for them that coÌ„fesse the Lord. And the masse booke saith Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church Yet saith Maister Harding this oblation is in vaine If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope and portus he may peraduenture crack his Masse ere he be ware But it is well We take that Maister Harding graunteth except the people receiue the celebration or sacrifice made by y e priest is in vaine so his priuate Masse is quitâ— condemned The B. of Saris. If Maister Harding will stand vnto the authoritie of Chrysostome let him not dissemble but speake plaine vnto the people as Chrysostom spake Let him say to theÌ„ that come to heare his masse if ye receiue not ye are shamelesse ye are impudent you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers Depart you from the Church ye haue no more place here than Turks and heathens your eyes be vnworthy to see these things vnworthy be your eares our Masses can not profite you they are not meritorious for you they please not God they prouoke his anger they are all in vaine This is Chrysostomes sense and plaine meaning Harding The .207 vntruthe These are not his words The .208 vntruthe Nor his meaning Dering Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader to note this manner of quoting vntruthes Of these very words of Chrysostome before he made two vntruthes the .202 and .203 Here of them all he maketh but one Yet if there be but one nowe there was but one afore and so one vntruthe is made thrée Againe before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning now he maketh one Yet if there be one now there was one afore so of two vntruthes which is very vnlike he will nuÌ„ber but one againe in the .204 vntruthe he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words and meaning héere seuerally he maketh one of either this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight Now as touching these two vntruthes and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel he neither saith nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome But alleaging certaine as is shewed in the .202 vntruth he héere addeth more For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vnto the people What troweth maister Harding to persuade the people that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named yet y e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist whome God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries But God be praised in all his saints The B. of Saris. Now let vs examine this inuincible argument wherwith euery childe as Maister Harding saith is able to proue the priuate Masse Harding The .209 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome euery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse these are his very wâ—ords I say as he saith let the booke be iudge and he that is found a lier let him haue the blame The B. of Saris. This is M. Hardings argument The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time was daily offred But many times none came to Communicate Ergo there was priuate Masse Heere the Maior is apparant false the Minor is proued at aduenture Harding The .210 vntruthe The Maior is true The .211 vntruthe The Minor is well proued Dering In the .133 vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine â–ª that in some place the people receiued euery day there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine that in some place they receiued not euerye day Hâ—ere likewise maister Harding noteth this for vntrue And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel that somewhere the people did receiue euery day somewhere only on certaine dayes let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses Thus he wryteth The Sacrament of the body of Christ is receiued somewhere euery day alicubi certis interâ—allis dierum somewhere on certaine dayes only As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant And though it were not good yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other As touching this other vntruthe that none came to receiue with the priest sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great and famous Churche of Antioche what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures and a bare gesse it is soone iudged Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here read the Replie The B. of Saris. As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6 councell of Constantinople by S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn by S. Basil ad Caesariam patritiam by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius and by the councell of Laodicea and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before alâ—eaged that the sacrifice was not daily offred Harding The .212 vntruthe S. Augustine hath the contrary Dering If S. August speake contraries he is sure the more to blame but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred it is to be ment of certaine places not of all This vntruthe is directly contrary to the 83.133.14-5.156 vntruthes But what skilleth that where M. Harding may be beleued Héere note that all these other aucthorities are coÌ„trolled and yet notwithstaÌ„ding M. Harding presumeth vpoÌ„ his vntruths Sure the number was appointed too large that coulde not be made vp without suche foule shifts The B. of Sarisb Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe Chrysostome ministred euery day therfore he receiued alone Harding The .213 vntruth Maister Harding
men héereby saith he it appeareth it was giuen to deade men not that it was thrust in their mouthes But I pray M. Harding can a thing be giuen to a dead man to eate and not thrust into his mouthe This vaine contention about words proueth M. Harding to be a very wrangler This appeareth to be true by the Canon M. Iuel recites and further we reade that it was commaunded if the persone were dying infundatur ori eius Eucharistia that the Sacrament should be poured into his mouthe Héere by the way note that in that time the people receiued the cuppe As touching the .85 vntruth M. Hardings Reioinder doth confute it selfe in the next vntruthe before he said the Councel did forbid it now he sayth it did not so whether it did or no M. Harding hath made a lie and except the distruction of thrusting it in their mouthes and putting it in there is no coloure to shadow the lie The B. of Saris. The members of these argumentes hang together like a sicke mannes dreame Harding The .86 vntruthe I make no arguments in this place Dering No good arguments in déede I graunt but yet suche as they are you encombre vs with them The B. of Sarisb Heere would M. Harding faine finde a Masse c. Harding The .87 vntruthe Heere I seke not for the Masse Dering But to séeke after your Masse is your only purpose Therfore here you speake nothing to the purpose and consequently as it was said afore your writings hang together like a sicke mannes dreame The B. of Saris. Here these words euery other christian man or woman that he hath in by the way are an ouerplus and quite from the purpose Harding The .88 vntruthe The .12 Diuision These vvordes are quite from the purpose Dering The question is whether there were priuate Masse within .600 yeare after Christ that is whether the Priests receiued alone in the congregation Maister Harding answereth sicke men and women receiued at home The controuersie lieth whether this be from the purpose The B. of Saris. For the question is moued not of any other man or woman but of the Masse and only of the Priest that saith the Masse Dering The .89 vntruthe Before there was an vntruth quoted not numbred here is one numbred and not quoted When M. Harding telleth what this vntruthe is we will answere it in the meane season we may marke the value of these vntruthes Some not worth numbring some not worthe naming but all is good inough for this Reioinder The B. of Saris. S. Ierome in his exposition is as homely calling it vilem intelligentiam traditionum Harding The .90 vntruth S. Ierome calleth not Moses lavv so Dering Héere M. Harding maketh two gesses One at S. Ieroms meaning an other at maister Iuels if either faile this vntruthe that is risen by chaunce must sal of necessitie But M. Harding héere as his whole religion is maketh very muche of outwarde shewes For except a little carnal pleasure of the outward sense there is nothing in their sinagogue but mourning and lamentation of the spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in no wise he will haue beggerly Ceremonies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe he is poore or nedy not beggerly What great ignorance in singular impudencie This exacte defining of Gréeke words may bréede some where some opinion of learning But alas héere is nothing but in déede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beggerly wrangling without other learning or good religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith maister Harding is not beggerly but poore Yet Aristophanes saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not pore but beggerly Nowe whether were better Grecian master Harding or Aristophanes I thinke it may be sone iudged Aristophanes wordes are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a begger and hath nothing he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that liues by his labor Thē by this it séemeth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is beggerly And Maister Harding that sacred interpretation that trident couent doth so muche enforce doeth it not call them egena elementa And I pray you M. Harding whether is egena poore or beggerly Surely Ouid saith de rem amor lib. 2. of Hecate and Irus why they are not beloued Nempe quod alter egēs altera pauper erat bicause Hecate was but poore Irus was a very begger but thus it is Maister Harding careth neither for Aristophanes nor yet for Ouid neither yet for Gréeke nor yet for Latine He is so ielous ouer his vntruthes that some time he speaketh he knoweth not what Againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe maister Harding is rather Elements than Ceremonies In déede I graunt the word signifieth the foure elements but I trow he wil not haue S. Paule speake thus now you know God why turne you againe to the fire aire water and earth that were a beggerly sense made of the holy Ghosts wordes Then why doeth he not confesse that S. Paule meaneth the Ceremonies of the law and thus much as concerning master Hardings Gréeke As touching his religion it is very choler if in respect of Christ he may not suffer the ceremonies of the law to be called beggerly But it is no maruell though this interpretation offend them for what is it that Paule calleth beggerly Ceremonies It foloweth You obserue dayes and monthes times and yeares Hinc illae lachrimae for this cause M. Harding is so much offended such obseruations are great principles in Papistrie and to call them beggerly is to make all that Religion nothing worthe But we sée suche a one is Paule he was chosen to preache among the gentiles and God haue the glory he hath conuerted vs from al popish Idolatry For this aucthoritie of Ierom which M. Harding blameth in which he séeketh for his vntruthe read the place thou shalt finde the words or else let this be vntrue The B. of Saris. Of mingling water with wine superstition only except no man maketh any great accompt Harding The .91 vntruth The old fathers make great accompt of it Dering If M. Harding will presse vpon these wordes no man maketh any great accompt then he might haue said I and my felowes make great accompt of it therfore some body dothe it and by this meanes he might haue had many witnesses of his saying and so his vntruthe had bene the surer If he will not so force the words why doth he apply them vnto the olde fathers By this it appeareth he writeth not alwayes with the best aduisement But now he doth M. Iuel great wrong and racketh his words to that he neuer ment He speaketh of him self and other that at this day professe Gods religion saith that were it not for feare of superstition we would not greatly stick to mingle water with the wine and for proofe that M. Iuel ment thus let his boke be iudge He alleageth Cyprian and Iustine and farther saith that
certaine olde Fathers force it muche which words folow immediatly Reade his Replie Then what shame is it to ascribe that to M. Iuel for an vntruthe which him selfe did neuer speake nor meane Belike these vntruthes goe slowly forward when M. Harding is enforced to chalenge that which was neuer sayd The B. of Saris. Neither Christ nor any of his Disciples euer gaue commaundement of it neither was it at any time vniuersally receiued Harding The .92 vntruthe Christ commaunded it The .93 vntruthe It hath bene vniuersally receiued Dering Note good reader this hasty quoting of vntruthes and the slender profe and thou shalt soone espie that M. Harding hath more desire of his number than regarde of any substaunce Héere are two vntruthes in a line The first Christ saith he commaunded that water should be mingled with the wine This bolde asseueration concerning Christes doing doth ask a sure proofe For bothe we were vnthankful if we would not folow his doing and the daunger were great in leauing his example But in all the Euangelists it is plaine that our Sauior Christ commaunded no such thing Then how doeth M. Harding proue this Forsoth saithe he Cyprian and the sixth generall councell séeme to say it came from the Apostles But bicause this is but a gesse and little worth he alleageth Clement who saithe plainely Christ did it and this beginneth to describe his ministration of the cup. Likewise mingling the cup of wine and water and Consecrating it he gaue it vnto them c. Now if this Clement be of good aucthoritie the matter is cleare But M. Iuel hath already shewed that his authoritie is no more worthe than Abdias Hippolytus Amphilochius and his other felowes and héere himself doth quite confound himself in that otherwise then all the Euangelists and S. Paule doe he describeth a new fashion of the Lords supper S. Paule saithe he that preacheth any other Gospel than this let him be accursed This of Clements is an other Gospel thaÌ„ Paule preached and therefore in this great light of the true Gospel that now shineth accursed be he that will folowe all Clements doctrine Sith therfore this is the proofe of this vntruthe Clement saith it this shalbe our aunswere for the discharge of it Master Iuel saith nay a man of more learning better religion godlier life and greater credite than euer y e bastard Clement was The second vntruth héere noted is that it hath bene generally receiued to poure water in the wine Yet Scotus saith it is not necessary as M. Iuel hath shewed And likewise so saith Thomas certain other Also Mary couÌ„terâ—et Pope Alexander in his first Decretall Epistle saith it must be done bicause bothe came out of Christes side But let these doctors go This I grauÌ„t that Iustinus Martyr Iraeneus and Cyprian who aboue other in this are most earnest do all séeme to enforce it but bicause the scripture hathe not expressed it we must beware how we make it necessary and for that occasion though in the Latine church it be very auncient yet in our Church we doe not vse it But for this vntruth where M. Harding saithe it hathe bene generally receiued that is more rashly affirmed than sufficiently proued Scotus saythe that in his time the Gréekes vsed it not long before him the people of Armenia vsed it not as appeareth in this sixth generall councell alleaged by M. Harding and by sundry other recordes and further many yeares before that time Chrysostome said of those words of our sauior Christ I will drinke no more of the fruit of the vine c. that he would with those words take away the pernitious heresie of suche as vsed water in the mysteries Yet saith M. Harding it hath bene generally receiued With as good a â—orage and as muche truthe as Pope Eugenius saith the same but he must pardon vs he may not score vp vntruthes vpon his owne credite we wil neither beleue the Pope nor him neither except they bring their proofes And thus muche of this vntruthe The B. of Saris. M. Harding saith this mixture is necessary to the sacrament Harding The .94 vntruthe I say not it is necessary Dering Euen now he said it was commaunded by Christ nowe he saith it is not necessary Marke well his sayings and lay them together and thou shalt easily consider of these vntruthes if we likewise thought Christes commaundement not necessary to be obserued when he saith accipite edite We might aforde M. Harding his priuate Masse The B. of Saris. Scotus saith it is not necessary Harding The .95 vntruthe Scotus saith not so Dering Wel said yet Anaxagoras snow is not white Scotus hath the very words sée the place in 4. sent dist 11. q. 6. Now coÌ„cerning this mingling of wine water bicause so many vntruthes are made about it it shall not be amisse to speake somwhat of it First as touching these meÌ„ theÌ„selues how they are affected we may partly gather by these vntruthes in the .94 vntruth M. Iuel saith that M. Harding maketh this mixture necessary It is not so saith M. Harding I say not it is necessary In this vntruth M. Iuel saith y t Scotus maketh this mixture not necessary It is not so saith M. Hard he maketh it necessary By this it is plaine y t Scotus M. Harding do not agrée But it may be that these hasty vntruthes want some coÌ„sideration Let that aduauntage goe and let vs consider the thing We haue no expresse commaundement for it That Christe gaue only wine it may wel appeare by that is written I wil drink no more of this fruit of the vine c. for the vsage of it if it were left frée it might be had but when they made it a matter of such waight it was necessary to stop y e great outrage But let vs sée how they proue that this mixture shold be made of wine and water Quia vtrumque ex Christi latere profluxisse dicitur bicause bothe issued out of Christes side True it is water and bloud issued out of Christ side but this is a poore reason to mingle water and wine in this Sacrament when Christ did celebrate his supper before his precious side was pearced That which S. Iohn testifieth héere that water and bloud issued out of his side the same he writeth in his Epistle that Christ came with water and bloud Teaching vs héereby that Christ is the true satisfaction for our sinnes and the true water of regeneration to make vs cleane and without spot before his father For the forgiuenesse of our sinnes and the purifying of our soules were figured in the lawe by sacrifices and by washings In y e sacrifices the bloud did purge sinnes and was the attonement appointed to pacifie Goddes wrathe The washings were testimonies of the true cleanenesse of the minde and remedies to doe away the filthinesse of our fleshe Now least our faith