and you shall perceiue that it is but for lacke of the second which is Mitescere pietate to be meeke by pietie that you so presumptuously make obiections Pur. 386.208 calling them in your pryde vnauoidable resons against those bookes which by your own confession the whol true Church hath Canonized And what be these vnauoidable resons First because the author of the second booke commendeth one Razis for killing himselfe 2. Mac. 7. Au. 2. Gau. 23. ep 61 which is contrary to the worde of God S. Augustine answereth the Donatistes you at once saying Touching this his death the Scripture hath told it how it was done it hath not commended it as though it was to be done Secondly you say he abridgeth the fiue bookes of Iason But the Holy Ghost maketh no abridgementes of other mens writinges The booke of the Kinges in how many places it singnifieth that it abridgeth stories telling where they be written more at large in other bookes that were not Canonicall And is not S. Marke commonly called Breuiator the abridger of S. Mathew Also euery Sermon and letter in the Actes of the Apostles Aug. de cōsen Euang. li. 1. ca. 2.3 is it not an abridgement The Holy Ghost knoweth to poure againe through his new vessels both péeces of other mens writinges as you see Act 17. Tit. 1. and also bookes much more of Iason the Hebrew as also of Ethnike Poetes Thirdly He confesseth that he tooke this matter in hand that men might haue pleasure in it which could not away with the tedious long stories of Iason But the Spirit of God serueth not such vaine delight of men Is it vaine delight to desire profitable breuitie In your preface to the Reader you say I haue vsed great breuitie by a naturall inclination whereby I loue to be shorte in any thing that I write Do you compt your inclination a vaine inclination And who séeth not that in al the bookes of holy Scripture there is great obseruation of breuitie that amongst other causes also to auoide tediousnes Fourthly He sheweth what labour and sweat it was to him to make this abridgement ambitiously commendeth his trauill and sheweth the difference betwene a story at large an abridgemēt al which things sauour nothing of Gods Spirit And specially that in the end for al this you carp in the preface 2. Mac. 2. he cōfesseth his infirmitie desireth pardon if he haue spoken slenderly and barely Wherby he testifieth sufficiently that he was no scribe of the Holy Ghost That he ambitiously commendeth his trauell is but your blasphemie without any occasion geuen by him All the rest standeth wel ynough with the assistance of the Holy Ghost vnlesse you think that the scribes of the Holy Ghost may not speak of themselues as of men humano more or the they must alwayes be eloquent alwaies able to do al without swet without labour Doth not S. Paul asmuch cōfesse his like infirmitie whē he saith 2. Cor. 11. Etsi imperitus sermone though I be rude in speking Yea doth he not excuse his bouldnes for writing to the Romanes who were so full of all knowledge and saith that he did it not but onely to put them in remembrance of that which they knew well ynough before Rom 15. did he not also in that Epistle for his ease vse Tertius his hand Rom. 16. and the like commonly in writing all his other Epistles also as appeareth 2. Thes 3 That I speake nothing of his intollerable paines taken in Preachinge wherein also he was the instrument of the Holy Ghost and not onely in his Epistles These are forsooth your vnauoideable reasons Now to S. Hierome Hieromes testimonies Pu. 214. M. Allen aleageth the authoritie of Hieronym in prol Mach. But what he meaneth thereby or what place he noteth I know not quoth you Who wil beléeue that you are so dul In the vulgare Latin Bibles is a preface vpon the bookes of Machabées in it are these wordes The Bookes of Machabees although in the Canon of the Hebrewes they be not had yet of the Church they are noted among the Stories of the diuine Scriptures Those vsual Prefaces are taken commonly of S. Hierom somtime for word somtime for sense and so is this as will appeare by the two places that you bring out of him In his preface vpon the Booke of Kings you say he doth not onely omit it in rehersall of the Canonicall bookes but also accompteth it plainly among the Apocryphal He there reporteh how many letters are apud Hebraeos with the Hebrewes to wit two and twentie and that accordingly number for number primus apud eos liber the first booke with them is Genesis and so forth to two twentie So expressy he sheweth that he rekoneth the bookes there after the Hebrewes and therefore that he speaketh of their Canon when he saith afterward that all without these is to be put among the Apocryphall Therfore Sapientia which is commonly intituled Salomons and Iesus booke the sonne of Sirach and Iudith Tobias and Pastor for that booke also he mentioneth among the bookes of the old Testament of which onely and not of any of the new Testament he there speaketh non sunt in Canone are not in the Canon The first booke of the Machabes I found in Hebrew The second is a Greeke Now what maketh this for you or against vs doth any of vs affirme that these bookes were in the Hebrewes Canon Pur. 215. But you haue another place out of S. Hierome to proue that they were neither in the Churches Canon In his Preface vpon the booke of Prouerbes Therfore euen as the Church readeth in deede the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Machabees but yet receiueth thē not among the Canonicall Scriptures So also these two bookes Ecclesiasticus and Sapientia let her reade as she doth for the peoples edification but not to confirme the authoritie of the Churches doctrines to wit against the Iewes that is the answere because their Canon hath not these bookes in it But among the Churches people they were also then read publikly and solemly in their course as well as the other bookes of Scripture As S. Augustine also witnesseth of one of them by occasion saying August de Praed San. cap. 14. The booke of Sapientia hath bene thought worthy to be recited at the deske in the church of Christ tam longa annositate so long a rew of yeres and with worship belonging to a booke of diuine authoritie to be harkened vnto of all Christian men from Bishops euen to the lowest sort of laymen faithfull penitentes and Catechumenes This was that reading of it to the peoples edification And euen so S. Hierome expoundeth him selfe in his Preface vpon the booke of Iudith saying With the Hebrues the booke of Iudith is read among the Hagiographal not amōg the (a) Hieron prol galeato in li. Regum nyne Hagiographal
Euery mans state we saye both is at his death and shal be at domesday according to his merites in his life Neither he that is clensed in Purgatory hath his merites either multiplied or amplified thereby but onely his veniall sinnes and temporall debtes taken away In the former place his words are these Although Abraham were in hell or in the inferior partes yet he was seuered with a long space betweene so that there was an huge chaos inter iustos peccatores quanto magis impios Betweene the iust and the Catholike sinners how much more the impious Heretikes Vt iustis esset refrigerium peccatoribus aestus impijs vero ardor That to the iust might be ease and heate as it were of the sunne to the sinners but fierie heate to the impious vt ante iudicium quo vnusquisque dignus esset non lateret that which eche sort were worthy of might before the iudgement be partly knowen Now how you can inferre of these words that no man feeleth payne after this life although S. Ambrose him selfe say it expresly in other places but he that shall feele it eternally I sée not Vnlesse perhappes you would binde him to yéelde a reason of Purgatory paynes withall when he yéelded a reason of Abrahams bosome and of the damned Soules hell or els haue him pronounced guiltie of contradiction and Purgatorie by your argument ab authoritate negatiuè quite subuerted From this saying of S. Ambrose we might well passe to the sayings of other Doctors alleaged agaynst Limbus patrum a friend of Purgatories but onely that we must stay a litle while for your pleasure Pur. 142.143 Emis ho. 3. de Epipha Ber. in vita Humberti with Eusebius Emissenus though him you take for a counterfaite and S. Bernard Because these two set foorth very terribly but truly the paynes of Purgatorie therfore with you the one sheweth him selfe an vtter enemie to the release of the same and the other denieth the remedie or remission of them As if you would say that the holy Scripture also where it preacheth Gods iustice denieth his mercy though in other places it preach his mercy no lesse For sée you not S. Bernard as earnest also for the remedie of those paynes where D. Allen alleageth him calling your friends the Apostolicie of his time Pur. 420. Ber. Ser. 66 in Cantica miscreants and doggs for laughing vs to skorne saith Bernard that we baptize infants that we pray for the dead that we require the helpe of the holy Saintes In so much that your self also confesse in another place saying Bernard is of opinion that sinnes not remitted in this world Pur. 194. may be remitted in the world to come Whether Purgatory be only for Veniall sinnes One other litle stay we must make about S. Augustines iudgement Pur. 122.448 being this as you say That Purgatory serueth to purge none but very small and light offences Wheras D. Allen saith that it is for great faultes also which by penance are made small alleaging for it this playne place Quaedam enim peccata sunt quae sunt mortalia Pur. 128. August de ver fal Poen ca. 18. in paenitentia fiunt venialia non tamen statim sanata For there be certaine sinnes which be mortall and in penance be made veniall but not straight healed As oftentimes certen sick persons would dye but for Phisick yet are not straight healed Lanquet victurus qui prius erat moriturus Feeble he is though now to liue and not to dye as before And therefore although one truely conuerted at the poynt of death from his wickednes nequitia c. shall be saued Yet we do not promise him that he shall escape all payne Nam prius purgandus est igne purgationis qui in aliud seculum distulit fructum conuersionis for he must first be purged with the fire of Purgatorie who in this world conuerted but deferred the fruite of conuersion to the other world Studeat ergo quilibet sic delicta corrigere vt post mortem non oporteat talem poenam tolerare Therfore let euery one labour so to amend his sinnes also after his conuersion because he is now as the sicke person past daunger of death but not healed as yet that after death he suffer not such passing grieuous payne You tooke not the paynes to take the booke and reade the place and therefore blindly you say that this Doctors words are playnly of light and smal offences and not of heinous and great offences euen also against your owne eyes that sawe the word Mortalia And againe that the manifest meaning of his words is not of a mortall sinne forgiuen as though he said that it become a veniall trespasse but that a mortall sinne may be pardoned Whereas he speaketh so manifestly of a mortall sinne after penance as of a mortall disease after Phisicke the daunger of soule death in the one as of bodily death in the other béeing now past but the healing behinde and therefore also daunger of Purgatory payne for it behind D. Allen alleageth for the same also Enchir. cap. 71. where S. Augustine affirmeth that Et illa peccata a quibus vita Fidelium sceleratè etiam gesta sed poenitendo in melius mutata discedit Also those sinnes in the which the faithfull haue wickedly lyued but nowe by penance lefte them chaunging their liues to better are after taken away by the same remedies as minima quotidiana peccata breuia leuiaque peccata the least and daily the short and light sinnes to wit among other remedies by the Pater noster which is the dayly prayer of the faithfull Which also in the next world he admitteth ca. 69. and 70. of the said Infanda crimina qualia qui agunt regnum dei non possidebunt Gal. 5. heinous crimes which depriue the parties of Gods kingdome Si conuenienter poenitentibus eadem crimina remittantur If the same crimes be forgiuen them in the Church vpon their due penance then he graunteth I say that such persons also may be saued by Purgatory fire after this life and not they onely that dye with Veniall sinnes This D. Allen there alleageth briefly and you say neuer a word vnto it Pur. 120. Onely you snatch those words which he alleageth among others out of another place to another purpose Illo enim transitorio igne non capitalia Au. Ser. 41. de Sanctis 1. Cor. 3. sed minuta peccata purgantur By that transitorie fire whereof the Apostle saith He shal be saued by fire are purged not mortall but light offences neither considering that he speaketh of purging culpam the fault it selfe for he speaketh against them that continue still in cōmitting mortall sinnes and deceiue them selues with false securitie while they think that peccate ipsa those sinnes may be purged by the transitorie fire them selues afterwards come to euerlasting life Nor knowing that he there also very
¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defense of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie By Richard Bristo Doctor of Diuinitie Tit. 3. Haereticum hominem post vnam secundam correptionem deuita sciens quia subuersus est qui eiusmodi est deliquit cum sit proprio iudicio condemnatus Auoyde the Heretike man after the first and second correption knowing that he which is suche is subuerted and sinneth syth that he is condemned by his owne Iudgement Perused and allowed by me Th. Stapleton Imprinted at Louaine by Iohn Lion Anno Dom. 1580. ¶ TO THE READER IT may serue greatly to thy edification gentle Reader as it also perteineth much to my purpose in this booke to let thée vnderstande that where as there are two wayes of finding out Christian truth when it is in controuersie the one by treating of euery matter in particuler the other by giuing certayne generall rules that are infallible Twelue or thirtéene yeres agoe M.D. Allen hauing amongst other learned Catholikes of our time and countrey on this side the sea opened and defended in print most perspicuously and substantially certayne speciall articles of the Catholike saith and béeing driuen not long after by sicknes to séeke to the ayre of his natiue soyle did in the short space of his abode there deale also the other waye with many Gentlemen confirming some and setting vp agayne others by most euident and vndouted rules of truth which were alwayes common for the most part among Catholikes but the weight of them déepely considered of very few and the number of them as yet neither by him nor by any other bound vp together Onely to one gentleman requesting so much he gaue a copie of them suche a one as of extemporall and priuate writing might be looked for It is now nine yeres since I heard the same of his own mouth what time I came first into his blessed familie and was present very often when amongst vs he discoursed familiarly vpon the said rules to such liking of my part that I left him not vntill I had intreated him to take his penne one morning and out of his memorie to frame me also a copie Which copie a friende hauing séene here with me who afterward was sent home into our lords haruest in a letter from thence desired instantly to be made partaker therof affirming that he saw how medicinable it would be to many soules I communicated the matter to the Author of it He béeing wholly occupied him selfe in publike teaching of Diuinitie would haue me who then had more leasure though for skill not worthy to beare his booke to deuise somewhat vpon those and the like rules which might in print be published to the world not as though the very bare rules as in the foresaid copies were not conuenient and sufficient specially for men of intelligence and that willingly would be informed but that by the declaration and confirmation of them the rude also and obstinate might be induced And this was the occasion of my Motiues in the ende of the yeare 1574. and also of my Demaundes in the beginning of the yeare 1576 which I made vpon the motion of certayne who desired to haue the Motiues printed agayne because the first impression was for the greater part taken and destroyed by the aduersaries And now after all this the last yeare 1577. commeth foorth from one W. Fulke an heretike a pretended answere to the first copie aboue mentioned or to some extract thereof ioyned with another like answere of the same Authors to D. Allens booke of Purgatorie and to my handes it came a fewe wéekes agoe euen an 1578 stylo R. this late Christmas Sith which time reading it twise ouer I finde that he neuer so much as once mentioneth either my Motiues or my Demaundes and much lesse doth he euer goe about to infringe any of my probations therein conteined And yet notwithstanding this depe silence Fulke li. 2. p. 107. in one place he bewrayeth him selfe to haue knowen of them where he glaunceth at the diuine worke of a certayne healing which I reported in my Motiues Moti 5. fol. 19. and sayth As you haue myracles now in Flaunders of the honest woman of the olde Baily in London Although otherwise also who can thinke it possible for him to haue heard nothing at least when he sought to print his of bookes written so late of the same matter and so well knowen to the Superintendent of London and innumerable others of that side whiche also any man that had séene the copie that Fulke answereth might easily conceiue to procéede from the same Author and me onely to be his scholar howbeit I also not obscurely professed as much where I said Mot. f. 2· The preiudices and euidences for the Catholike faith against all heresies are innumerable and superable and my chaunce it hath bene through the mercifull prouidence and goodnes of God to liue certayne yeres in companie with Catholike men of great vertue wisdome and knowlege blessed of God most liberally with his graces such as our miserable countrey is not worthy of whose dayly familiar talke of such things I haue vsed to heare as to my great admiration so likewise with all diligence and attention And what I haue through such communication at sundry times or of my selfe at other times by meanes thereof obserued I purpose as memorie shall serue me and God assist me béeing thervnto both iustly moued and earnestly required in this booke at once to vtter it in part If I may say what I do ghesse hereat I suppose that it should still haue lyen by him Fulk to the Reader as it hath done he saith these eyght or nyne yeares and neuer haue bene put in print but only for shew of an answere to my Motiues and Demaundes specially séeing that where as D. Allens writing was called onely by the name of Articles this man at euery Article hath also printed the worde Demaundes because euery Article consisteth of certayne Demaundes by meane whereof I knowe already my selfe some that are deceyued and thinke it to be an answere vnto me yet in trueth it toucheth not me at all neither maketh any iuste answere to D. Allen but all so simply and so féebly that he is fayne to set it out without priuiledge as also his other booke agaynst Purgatorie Ibidem though that booke was authorized he saith almost two yeares ago wherein I knowe not whether we may beléeue his bare worde for many causes easie to be here noted and one namely for that he thus writeth in the same We beleeue that Pa. 450 VVhat if the Church vvere in Englande only or one vvere king of al countreis sometime vvher it is the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Well if it haue authoritie at the least without priuilege it hath it and his former booke
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
of his fellowe members here on earth And why is he not of charitie bound as well to pray for them And if he be why are not those members in heauen as well or haue not they also receiued of God some giftes If they haue why are not they of charitie bound as well or doth not the Scripture say plainly the Christes friendes in heauen do reioyce with his penitentes in earth How then coulde you pretend Luc. 15. as though the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with another can by no meanes touch the state of the dead Is not the state of the holy Angels now the state also of some that be dead Be not they also among Christes friendes in heauen So much you say touching the Communion of the Church militant here on earth For you haue another besides it which you call the communion of the whole body that you make to be the participation of life from Christ the head If that be all then is there no Communion For what communion were it betwéene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse their said life to profit one another but liued euery one to himselfe alone How much better had you bene to follow D. Allens most proper and true discription of it then to vtter thus you know not what at the least if you could not correct him yet you could belye him as to say that he will haue other workes and wayes of saluation beside the bloud of Christ He saith that in this Communion all workes and all wayes of saluation are common to the whole body al grounded in the bloud of Christ But of any beside the bloud of Christ he saith not Yea it is clene contrarie to that which he saith ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie THus at the length with the helpe of God I am come to the end And yet the Reader must vnderstande that I finde in this man such store of this stuffe as would suffice to make another volume as big as this partly by enlarging these two last Chapters with many more of his like contradictions errors or ignorances for all the former Chapters be full freyted partly by making many new Chapters vpon new matters As one to shewe howe he behaueth himselfe in all places where he chargeth either the Catholikes doctrine or D. Allen himselfe with contradictions Another to lay together all his falsifications of the Scriptures Doctors and D. Allen by adding diminishing or chaunging their wordes Another of his most impudent facing lyes without any colour of truth Another of his detestable raylings not only at D. Allen but also at the old Doctors and at Rome and at the whole Churche which he can not auoide the Scriptures with his owne confession are so plaine for it but it is the true Church his owne Mother and Spouse of Christ Another of his ridiculous answeres to many of D. Allens Demaundes sometimes like him that answered a pokefull of plumes whē he was demaunded the way to London sometimes to answere the very same thing that is in question c. Moreouer diuers others chapters yet of Purgatorie about his answeres to D. Allens allegations to sée whether he haue so answered thē as I haue here answered al his allegations against it yea against any other Article of ours One of those Chapters might be to gather all the Scriptures alleaged by D. Allen the auncient Fathers before him and Fulkes answeres vnto them with my replies which are e dispersed in this booke like as in the 8. chapter I haue gathered al Fulkes scriptures answered thē Another of such bookes in antiquitie as he denyeth namely the workes of S. Dionysius Areopagita and the Constitutions of the Apostles by S. Clement because he could not otherwise auoide their plaine testimonies for prayer for the dead they also liuing euen in the Apostles time and familiarly with the Apostles Of which bookes notwithstanding there are such probations as can not possibly be answered Reade the Preface of Fr. Turrianus in his new edition of those Constitutions and the Preface of Mat. Galenus ad Areopagitica Cop. Dial. 2. ca. 5. as also the Preface and Scholies in the Gréeke edition by Morelius at Paris Anno. 1562. In another Chapter I might shew how vainely he laboureth to answer certaine testimonies of the other Doctors considering that he graunteth other testimonies of the very same Doctors them selues or of their seuerall times to be so euident for it that they can not be answered for which cause also he passeth by many of them with silence as that S. Augustine in one place prayed for his mothers soule and yet to stand with D. Allen about other places of his that they proue it not as though Doctors opinion and iudgement being confessed there néedeth any more to doe to be made about his sayings And yet it is nothing also which he answereth to those other places as I haue shewed in very many of them Another might be to lay together all D. Allens argumentes or reasons for it with my replies to Fulkes answeres such as I haue made in diuers places of this booke In another I could shewe that Fulke hath made no answere lightly to these Scriptures Doctors or reasons but D. Allen did foresée it afore hand warned the Reader of it and made so iust a replie vnto it as standeth still vpright euen after that Fulke hath done the worst he could Another might be to shew out of Iustinus Martyr Ireneus and Clement Alexandrinus in how many things they also make with vs most euidētly as in nothing against vs because he doth so oftē require vs to proue prayer for the dead by any of them as though he would yéeld to them although he will not to their fellowes wheras in déede he excepteth against them no lesse as I haue shewed then against the rest Another might be by occasion of his zeale for Caluine Luther and such other his Maisters and fellowes to shewe more copiously that they are worthily charged not onely with those shamefull opinions by D. Allen but also that they may be likewise charged with very many moe no lesse yea and much more shamefull then those These matters are such as being so handled would worke the further discredite of Fulke and of his side and yet being no more handled then alreadie doe leaue no blotte in our side no nor so much as in D. Allen particularly For which cause I minde not neither hereafter to prosecute them vnlesse I haue greater occasion geuen then yet I sée But presently I omitted them to auoide more prolixitie and specially because in this booke I tooke in hand to defend not D. Allen but the Church and therefore whatsoeuer
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
plainely Angeli Dei August de Ciu. li. 15. cap. 22.23 The Angels of God where we haue nowe but onely Filij Dei The sonnes of God meaning as it is now commonly thought The ofspring of Seth that they marryed with the daughters of men that is with the ofspring of Caine which aâ—ore they refrained religiously iij. Touching Second mariages and Sainct Hierome Ar. 35. But of Iustinus his time you saye further It seemeth also that the Churche in his time was in some error about Seconde mariages and diuorcementes Had you no more to saye but It seemeth and yet coulde not absteine from accusing the Churche of God neither yet doe you tell vs why it séemeth so you neyther alleage nor so much as quote any place to proue it In the workes of Iustinus him selfe I dare say you haue it not If you tooke it out of the Magdeburgian Centuries followe my counsell hereafter and looke euerye thing first your selfe in the Authors before you beléeue your fellowes or masters any more otherwise they will deceiue you still and so you againe deceyue your puenies if they againe will trust your word Supra ca. 4 Of like stuffe it is that you accuse S. Hierom also for Second mariages say a Pur. 419. Yea Ieronym b Ar. 46. the great aduaÌ„cer of virginitie dispraiser of mariage was almost fallen into the heresie of TertulliaÌ„ in condemning second mariages You say but almost that also wtout any testimony either alleged or quoted Bylike you neuer read S. Hieroms Apologie pro libris aduer Ioui where at large he defendeth him self against all such cauils of his enemies Amongst much more thus he saith there Non damno digamos prope â— imò nec trigamos c. I do not condemne them that are twisemaried no not thrisemaried also if it may be saide eightmaried Reade that booke from the beginning and stand out if you can that very countenance onely of this most graue singular doctor wherwith he speaketh to his backbiters saying An ego rudis in Scripturis c. O belike I was altogether ignorant in the Scriptures and began then first to reade the holy bookes and therfore was not able in my writing to walke straight betwene virginitie and mariage but whiles I exalted virginitie agaynst Iouinian I condemned mariage with Marcion and Manicheus And yet so bold you be with him behind his back as you think that you lay vnto him agayne other two such perilous assertions such erroneous and hereticall absurdities Ar. 46. as no yong scholar of diuinitie would fall into To destroy the humanitie of Christ and To giue diuinitie vnder the Martyrs To report the trueth Vigilantius the heretike did say against praying to Saintes Hier. ad Vigil 2 That the soules of the Apostles and Martyrs can not be present at their sepulchres and where els they would This doth S. Hierom proue to be absurde and against the Scripture considering that The diuels gadde ouer all the world and with marueilous celeritie are present euery where And the Apocalipse saith of the Saintes Apoc. 1â— They folow the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth Of which place S. Hierome gathereth thus Si agnus vbique c. If the Lambe be euery where Ergo also these that are with the Lambe must be beleeued to be euerywhere Not meaning in personall presence euery where at once for so much nedeth not to the Inuocation of Saintes but of such power they be that they heare their suiters in all places at once and can be personally present to heale and helpe whom they will euen as the Lambe that is Christ according to his humanitie as your selfe confesse and as throughout that booke the worde is vsed heareth his suiters in all places at once and in personall presence assisted S. Stephen Act. 7. whomsoeuer els he will I say according also to his humanitie as in that respect likewise he said Mat. 2. â— All power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth And therfore you shal neuer be able in the matter of Inuocation of Saints to answer that text They follow the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth hauing said afore that he stood ouer the mount Sion so as Stephen saw him standing But you must be fayne to deny the Inuocation hearing assisting of Christ according to his humanitie as much as you denie the inuocation hearing and assisting of them that be so with Christ S. Hierome is to olde a scholer in the Scriptures or rather to perfect a master for you to answere or oppose him iiij Touching praying to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost If these afore be but particuler or such other persons as imply not the whole Church but yet two most euident examples you haue in store against the whole vniuersall true Church The first that the third Councell of Carthage though a Prouinciall Synode yet hauing the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in a generall Councell defined that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the sonne and God the holy Ghost Mary this is a great matter in déede and incomparably worse then for Vigilantius or you to say that it is vnlawfull to pray to Christ according to his humanitie or to his Apostles and Martyrs But how appeareth it that they defined so because they determined that al prayers at the Altar should be directed only to the Father and not to the Sonne Con. Car. 3. ca. 23. or the holy Ghost The wordes of the Councell truely reported are these Vt nemo in precibus c. That no man in prayers name eyther the Father for the Sonne or the Sonne for the Father For that were to confound the persons after the heresie of Sabellius It followeth And when the Altar is stoode at let the prayer be directed alwayes to the Father Now doth it folow of this that no prayers may be directed to the Sonne and holy Ghost Such are his necessarie collections or also that the very prayers at the Altar may not be directed to them that they may not I say because for order sake they are appoynted to be directed to the Father The Arrians in S. Fulgentius time aboue a thousande yeres agoe Fulgen. ad Moninum li. 2. quaest 2. ca. 2.5 knowing this selfe same order to haue procéeded from the Apostles and to haue bene receiued and alwayes continued in all Liturgies or Masses throughout all Christendome esteemed it amongst their arguments as aperse But he teacheth the Catholikes to answere both those Arrians and this Protestant First he repeateth the argumeÌ„t speaking to his friend Moninus Dicis a nonnullis te interrogatum c. Thou sayest that many haue asked thee of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ which many thinke to be offered to the Father onely Also thou saiest that this argument is as it were the triumph of the heretikes Then he answereth it at large
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
worde of trueth desiring the spirite of trueth that you may vnderstande and beleeue the trueth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the trueth and of the Churche of God whiche is the pillar of truth So it is then good syr In this Seminarie of English diuines vnder the gouernement of D. Allen mainteined by his holines for the saluation of our countrey as he mainteineth the like for Germanie also for Bohemia and Students of Polonia The Popes Seminarie for England Suetia Slauonia Hungaria c. yea for the Gréekes likewise yea also for the Hebrues we haue such exercise in the scriptures that we reade ouer the old Testament in euery thrée yeres twelue times one of which times hath ioyned with it an examinatiō by conferēce from Chapter to Chapter and from verse to verse The new Testament we reade ouer in the same thrée yeres sixtéene times with a treble examinatiō of the same sort And not cōtent with those examinations we afterwards write moreouer in paper bookes lay together al the sentences that belong to the controuersies of this time euery one in his place And without all vanitie to speake one word of my selfe after many yeres studie afore after the maner of Englād as many of your owne side can beare me witnesse I haue since then folowed this foresaid trade nine yeres This is partly our diligence in the scriptures besides much other exercise both in the same and in all the studie of diuinitie What more diligence would you haue vs vse this is the principall and as you make it all in all All other helpes you counte but subordinate and seruing vnto this And yet in them also I dare saye if you knewe vs you woulde allowe vs for sufficient at the leaste You maye by the trace of God ere it be long haue some taste of vs therein when one of vs shall set forth a booke to shew to the world that the Hebrew and Gréeke textes in nothing make for you against vs and in very many things make for vs against you much more plainly then our vulgar Latine text Now then how much more certaine of the trueth be we then you also by your owne rule because your diligence herein is nothing comparable but specially because together with this rule we vse the expositiōs that you renounce of the auncient Fathers who for such conference of places and all other studie of the Scriptures were pearlesse ¶ The third part What he meaneth by his Onely Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe Thus haue we heard this Protestant call for expresse Scripture in all things yea also in the expounding of Scripture Now that he séeme not too straight and rigorous in his exception he will tell vs what he meaneth therby as it were to geue vs more scope but in déed as we shall heare soone after to shut vs straighter vp and to except also against Scripture it selfe vnlesse it be so plaine and euident for vs that by no subteltie of theirs they may auoide it Concerning the former thus he saith When we require expresse Scripture for euery controuersie we doe not require that euery thing should be named in Scripture but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them Then on the other side he almost repenteth himselfe againe for graunting so much and saieth And yet we may say Pur. 438. it is a great preiudice against your Purgatorie and prayer that it is not so much as once named in the Scriptures Againe If the holy Ghost had euer allowed Prayer for the deade he would once at the least haue vttered the same plainely in holy Canonicall Scriptures Pur. 452. Canonicall he saith to except against the very meaning of it also which he séeth in the bookes of the Machabées rather shall that Canonicall Scripture not be Canonicall for so plainely naming that which the eares of the Protestantes can not abide Well in the other Canonicall Scriptures the name is not and that is a great preiudice against vs. But he will be fauourable vnto vs a great preiudice shal not make him geue iudgement against vs if at least The thing it selfe be taught or can be proued by the Scriptures Yet againe he remembreth him selfe Pur. 452. that D. Allen hath alleaged many Scriptures for that thing and the old Fathers likewise before him and therefore to tye vs yet straighter with another exception he said here a little afore But we require that euery thing be necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures And againe he saith speaking of D. Allen See the confidence of the man he is sure Pur. 364. that if we were examined of our conscience what tryall of this doubt we would wish there is none we could name but his cause might well abide it Wherevnto he answereth saying Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience long agoe that the onely authoritie of Gods word written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters If you were able we should haue heard before this time some sentence of Scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the dead Why in the third Chapter here you confessed that you haue heard of him diuerse sentences and not of him alone Supra pag. 19. but also of the Fathers of the true Churche Yea but now saieth he I adde my exception and say therfore some sentence not standing vpon voluntarie collection but either in plaine wordes or necessarie conclusion For there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessarie collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Againe Pur. 452. All truth may be proued by Scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessarie conclusion which is all one And againe Pur. 189. There is * For example your ovvne heresie no heresie so absurd which Satā putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of words in so many Bookes of the holy scriptures that by peruerse wittes may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods trueth and all articles of our beliefe are plainely taught in the Scripture either by manifest wordes or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtiltie of Satan or his instrumentes may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betweene heresie and truth when they both appeale to the authoritie of Scripture Which difference as it may be found in al heresies so in none more notably then in this error of Purgatory Consider what texts of holy Scripture are alleaged * against it rather for it you shall see they can not bring one out of which any necessary argument may be framed to proue their cause or which hath not by learned interpretors of the olde time
and sure for their persons and not one of them but he was thankes be to God throughly satisfied by our conference and namely by séeing and hearing our foresaid dayly reading and examination of the Scriptures Which béeing by D. Allen our President his order vsed amongst vs who can doubt but he exhorteth men to reade the Scriptures them specially that vnderstande Latin much more thē S. Bedes historie And namely the Acts of the Apostles what booke do I his scholler more often vse in my Motiues and Demaundes then that And touching a Catholike trāslation of the Scriptures you shew your selfe to know litle God wotteth what is D. Allens desire and minde therein But all men may assure them selues that any thing lacketh therevnto rather then good will and feruent zeale specially because we sée it translated already by Catholikes into al other languages almost and because we know sundry cōmodities that might ensue thereof namely because we lament to see so many soules to dye in the most holsome waters beeing turned into deadly bitternes by your Starre Absinthin Apoc. 8. your blindnes withall being suche that leauing both the authenticall Gréeke of the Septuaginta which the Apostles and Primitiue Church did vse and also the authenticall Latin which the Church hath vsed so many hundred yeres in some part euen from the beginning almost you haue serued our countrey with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes vowelling diuiding and reading it being of it selfe but one verse in the whole Psalter and ech other particular booke onely consonantes and to be read according to the tradition of the faithfull which tradition we know by our authenticall translations and not of the incredulous and perfidious No no whensoeuer we should make if we were in case and place a Catholike translation and send the copies in they should be in no lesse daunger of your searchers and fyres then our other bookes haue bene and are euery day more and more but yet that daunger should not stay vs if nothing els did knowing that such a translation will confound you ten thousande times more then all the other bookes haue done Last of all if none of my former requestes can finde place with you at the least wise you shal haue here in the Chapter folowing an answere to all your Scriptures hither vnto alleaged in both your bookes to chaw vpon for a while And then tell your Reader when as you haue here renounced all other euidences so he shall sée that you are no lesse destitute of Scripture also tell him then I say blaming D. Allen Pur. 364. and saying And yet he wondreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleare light of truth And againe in the ende of your booke Pur. 458. In Gods name let the Readers way indifferently and as they see this poynt of the dead handled so let them iudge of the rest The trueth is vpholden by euident testimonie of Scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The truth seeketh vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the spirite of God in the Scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men Now thē to these euident Scriptures in the name of God and to your diuine vnderstanding of them ¶ The eyght Chapter To shew his vanitie in his foresaide rigorous exacting of playne Scripture and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered AL the Scriptures that he alleageth against vs throughout his two bookes I do sort and distribute into foure partes The first concerning the question of onely Scripture the second concerning the question of the Church the third concerning the question of Purgatorie the fourth concerning al other questions that he mentioneth The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture And as touching the first In the last Chapter we saw how to make exception against all our other euidēces he euermore said that in all matters Onely euident Scripture must be brought and heard confessing those other euidences to be so euident for vs that they can not otherwise be auoyded Now then this béeing his onely refuge how many and how euident Scriptures hath he alleaged for it as you thinke Surely in all his first booke to D. Allens Articles they being altogether our foresaid Euidences he alleageth but one place onely and not many mo neither in his other booke of Purgatorie And what maner of place also thinke you that it is specially considering howe muche he craketh of it as where he saith Thus I haue declared Ar. 11.15 c. that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all Heretikes onely by the Scripture Agayne it hath bene already proued sufficiently Ar. 16. that the true Catholike Church which is ledde only by the worde of God the onely weapon by which heresies are cut downe counting it to be sufficient for that purpose hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes And againe Doctrine is to be sought out and tried onely by the Scriptures Ar. 82. as we haue declared at large in the answere to the fourth Article first Demaunde And once againe Ar. 86. As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or cōtention of heresie they must be resolued and determined as it is abundauntly declared before onely by the Scriptures With that place of Scripture he alleaged certayne Fathers as Hilarius Basilius Chrysostome Sainct Augustine Leo the first and the Councell of Constantinople the sixte To whom I must aunswere in the next Chapter Infra pag. But he graunteth pardie that the Fathers authoritie is no warrant to him so to crake as another where also expresly he saith Pur. 383. It is not for confirmation of the trueth that we alleadge the authoritie of the Doctors and olde Councels Then must all these crakes be onely in respect of the Scripture that you there alleaged Let vs therefore nowe heare that Scripture So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. that is to say Ar. 11. only by the Scripture That he often disputed against the Iewes prouing Iesus to be Christ I there finde but that his argumentes were none but Scriptures I finde not But reade you Actes .13 and you shall finde that he vsed also other argumentes agaynst them to witte the testimonie of certayne men as of S. Iohn Baptist and of his owne Disciples that sawe him many dayes together after his resurrection qui vsque nunc sunt testes eius ad plebem Who to this day are witnesses for him to the people Reade likewise Act. 4. for the argument of Miracles specially where it is sayde Hominem quoque videntes stantem cum eis qui curatus fierat nihil poterant contradicere Seeing the man also standing with Peter and Iohn whom they had healed the Gouernours of the Iewes were quite put to silence And therefore also if S. Paule had in your place ouercome them
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
fulfilled that which was reuealed to S. Iohn in the twelfth of the Apocalipse The woman clothed with the sunne which you your selfe confesse to be the Church was so persecuted by the Dragon that she fledde into the wildernesse there to remayne * Idem etiam Ar. xxvij narrovvly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season a long season So farre printed by you in the letter of the Scripture A world to sée your bolde blindnes You do so apply this prophecie onely because of the Popes Primacie which yet is a truth of the Gospell practised also notoriously in all ages as well afore Bonifacius the third as after him which two poyntes the Reader may sée euidently in the Seuenth booke of M. D. Saunders Monarchie yea by your selfe also confessed before the said Bonifacius and the Church the true Church notwithstanding your wordes I reported in the 3. Chapter Supra pag. yea moreouer your owne selfe do say Articulorum pagina 38 that All nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes for the Greeke Church and other orientall Churches neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and especially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie cleane contrarie to that which both the Scripture and also your selfe do hold of Antichrist and of his vniuersall exaltation as I shall lay your wordes together in the 11. Chapter amongest your other grosse contradictions And therefore you can not for the Popes authoritie so expound this prophecie As for that Summe of money you tell vs not what author you followe therein neither is the thing material vnlesse you wil condemne your owne side also of Antichristianisme for their infinite contributions to mainteine these Rebellions euery where whiche you call your Gospell But O Syr I pray you I thought séeing your goodly promises in the last Chapter that to finde out the meaning of a text of Scripture you would haue brought vs nothing but Scripture and so cleare Scripture that by no suttletie it might be auoyded Howe is it then that nowe you bring nothing but your owne conceites Yea furthermore how is it that to make a shewe of a texte which you saw not to be with you but playne against you you corrupt the text For by your opinion Antichrist raigned in the world and the Church continued in the wildernes Ar. 36.79 The time of the Churches being in the vvildernesse the space of 807. yeres from the yere .607 the time of Bonifacius the third to the yere 1414. béeing the time of the Constance Councell and of Iohn Hus your supposed great Grandfather All this while you say Christ hath preserued her now to bring her out of her secret place in the wildernesse into the open sight of the world agayne And therefore you make the text to say here before that being persecuted by the Dragon she fled into the wildernes Falsification most detestable there to remayne a long season But the text hath the cleane contrary a very short season to wit but thrée yeres and a halfe These are the words truely reported as Catholikes are wout to do And the woman fugiebat Apoc. 12. fled into the wildernes where she had a place prepared of God that they may there feede her 1260. dayes And the same againe a litle after And to the woman were geuen two wings of a great Eagle Vt volaret that she might flye whether this be flying in body as you say or in mind as I say into the wildernes vnto her place where she is fedde one time and two times and halfe a time from the face of the Serpent Where is now your long season your 807. yeres VVhether Antichrist should come An. 607. Apoc. 12. Your folly will agayne be manifest if I report the truth of the Dragons persecution because you make it to haue bene in the time of Bonifacius An. 607. But what saith the Scripture First that great Dragon is the olde Serpent called the Diuel and Satan the Seducer of the whole world But Christ in consideration of his passion then at hande and the conuersion of the world immediatly ensuing therevpon saide of him Now is the iudgement of the world Ioan. 12. Mat. 12. now shall the prince of this worlde be expelled And the same in the Apocalypse in these moste euident wordes Apoc. 12. And he tooke the Dragon and he bounde him the space of a thousande yeres and he cast him into the bottomlesse pitte and he shutte and sealed vpon him that he should no more deceiue the Nations or the Gentiles vntill the thousande yeres were consummate So expresly to confounde you vtterly with your impious Gospell of Caluenisme who set the loosing of the Dragon the comming of Antichrist his persecution and the Churches desolation which all do go together at the yere 607. The time of Antichristes raigning It followeth as expresly And after this he must be loosed modico tempore for a litle season And the same agayne And when the thousande yeres be consummate Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and he shall goe foorth and shall seduce the Nations which are vpon the foure corners of the earth Gog and Magog and shall gather them vnto battayle whose number is as the sande of the sea And they ascended vpon the latitude of the earth and compassed rounde the campe of the Holy ones and the Citie beloued But all in vayne and to their owne destruction for Fire descended from God out of heauen and deuoured them and the diuell who seduced them was caste into the lake of fire and brimstone where also the Beast that is Antichrist and his notable falseprophet shal be tormented day and night for euer and euer That which the Apocalypse here calleth Consummation The consummation of the thousand yeres the Gospell that no man be deceiued calleth it Consummationē seculi The consummation of the world Mat. 24. Mar. 13. and meaneth thereby that Modicum tempus litle season aforesaid For so the Apostles asking our Sauiour What signe shall there be of thy comming and the consummation of the world He answereth and telleth them of sundry things which must be Sed nondum est finis but the consummation notwithstanding is not yet What then Mary This Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in the vniuersall world for witnesse to all Nations Et tunc veniet consummatio and then shal come the consummation And in the short season of the consummation what shal be Tribulatio magna and Seductio magna So great a persecution and so great a Seducing that the Elect also would not be saued but that for their sakes Breuiabuntur dies illi Those dayes shall be shorter then any man would thinke it possible séeing the Persecutors greatnes onely thrée yeres and a halfe Statim autem post tribulationem dierum illorum And straight after the persecution of those short dayes there shall be maruailous alterations in the heauens
Bestiam euen within one houre after the Beast that is together with Antichrist The vvhore Babylon to serue him as his féede knightes And so you sée euidently by these Seuen hills thus expounded that the woman which sitteth vpon them is not so litle a one as you do make her but that she is Mundus impiorum the whole multitude of the wicked euen frō the first beginning of the world to the last end thereof euen al in effect that at the later day shal be drowned in hel either for being of her Apo. 14.15 16.17.18 2. Pet. 2. or conforming them selues vnto her which in the Apocalypse is most manifest as the world of the wicked it was which was in the time of Noe drowned in the vmbraticall deluge So that Rome with the Emperour of it while it was against the Church was a member yet but a member of that woman As England contrariwise which was before so long together a notable member of the woman clothed with the Sunne is now become a member most miserable of the contrarie woman and for rewarde of her mutation and Apostasie thus plagued of God that now she must heare the Scriptures so perniciously detorted in all pulpits at large and may not heare them truely sincerely healthfully reported so muche as in poore papers which if she might fréely and much more in pulpits downe downe god wot full soone would this lying and absurd new Gospell come as by this litle which hath bene here saide any man of reason will not denie And now to our third question which is of Purgatory The third part Concerning the question of Purgatory D. Allen in the end of his booke of Purgatory made two chapters of answere to their Scriptures yet saith Fulke at the first of the two This Chapter is but Pro forma tantum Pur. 437. To make a shew of a confutation where the tenth part of our arguments are not rehearsed notwithstanding there and other where vp and downe he said inough to answere all But I shal endeuour therefore to satisfie the man better in this behalfe collecting together not only the tenth part but euen al his scriptures not omitting as much as one by my will though such collecting and disposing of things so dispersed cost me in euery Chapter of this booke as much or more labour then to answere the same afterward Well syr then you reason against Purgatorie by authoritie of Scripture in part negatiuely in part affirmatiuely And your negatiue reasoning is sometimes of a piece onely sometimes of the whole Scripture Againe when it is out of a piece onely it is partly out of some one place partly out of some one booke j Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè First therfore whatsoeuer you say negatiuely out of a piece whether it be one place or one booke you haue your selfe answered it for me Pur. 449. whatsoeuer it be in these words It is no good Logike to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true These be your owne words euen also speaking there of this selfe same matter euen of Purgatory Neuerthelesse to deale more substantially I will not sticke to rehearse those places also and to answere them particulerly One of them is 1. Thes 4. vpon which in your negatiue diuinitie you demaund and say Pur. 236. How hapneth it that in so necessary a place S. Paule findeth no other comfort to moderate the mourning of the faithfull but only the quiet rest of thē that are asleepe in the Lord and the hope of their glorious resurrection Sruely if S. Paule had bene of Chrysostomes mind he would haue prescribed other maner of comfortes Against the Fathers also as Chrysostome doth to wit exhorting them to prayers and almes for their friendes departed rather then to mourne so immoderatly Séeing you so reason out of this place I pray you let me aske you Haue you whensoeuer in Sermon or otherwise you would moderate the mourning of the faithfull no other comfort but onely these two yea I say more If you haue no mo comforts in that case and if there be no moe then S. Paule there prescribeth surely there is but onely one to wit the hope of resurrection For although he name them that are asleepe in the Lorde yet of their quiet rest after that sléeping that is to say after their death he saith nothing it is but your owne addition Another place with your negatiue Logikes demaund is where hauing graunted Pur. 362. that Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and many more are witnesse that the solemne prayer for the dead in celebration of the Sacrament is the tradition of the Apostles you pose the Papistes notwithstanding and aske Why then the same is not set foorth by Matthew Marke Luke or Paule where they set foorth the institution of the Sacrament Your wordes at large and my aunswere go afore in the laste Chapter pag. ◠sauing that piece of your wordes which conteineth your negatiue reason most clearely and most boldly saying But agaynst this faigned tradition S. Paule cryeth with open mouth 1. Corin. 11. That which I deliuered vnto you I receyued of the Lorde c. This is the onely true substance of the Sacrament and onely right order of ministration and onely right vse and proper end thereof So you make as though the Apostle there prescribeth the whole order of ministration in so muche that it onely and no other may be the right order thereof contrarie to that whiche followeth in the same place Infra ca. 11. contr 44. The rest I will set in order when I come You declare your great skill in the Scripture when here so farre you misse of the Apostles purpose which was onely agaynst vnworthy receauing The greatnesse of that sinne he sheweth because of the Reall presence of Christ yea and that in the same maner as he was in his death Looke better vpon the place and sée whether it be not as I saye or rather as S. Augustine sayth Au. ep 118. ad Ian. ca. 3 Inde enim Apostolus indignè dicit acceptum ab eis qui non discernebant a ceteris cibis veneratione singulariter debita quod satis toto ipso loco in Epistola ad Corinthios prima si diligenter attendatur apparet For that respect the Apostle also doth say that they receaue it vnworthily who doe not by due and singularlye due worshippe discerne it from the rest of meates as sufficiently appeareth through that same whole place in the firste Epistle to the Corinthians if it be diligently considered So then where the Apostle intended no more but to correct the sinne of vnworthye receyuing there to require of vs to shewe that he prescribeth it to be offered for the dead yea and the whole order of ministration haue not you forsooth great reason And euen as great you haue where you argue out of particular
liberal where penance is vnperfect as where it is full Nor yet to say as you do in the same place I thinke M. Allen is angry with Christ that he did not send the penitent thefe into Purgatory but euen that day promised to be with him in Paradise You rather might be angry with that peniteÌ„t for thinking it inough if he might be remembred when Christ should come in his kingdome though in the meane time he did among such as he abide for his sinnes in another place But to thinke that D. Allen would be angry with Christ our high priest for geuing a pardon and that a plenary how could you knowing that the Vicar of Christ gâ—uing a plenary offendeth him not for the mercifull iustice of God in which he gouerneth vs that are his family is as throughly answered by Christ our Lord when by him selfe or by his Ministers he giueth vs full pardon as when he giueth vs full penance And in this I haue at once answered your like obiecting to D. Allen in another place Pur. 64. that He will not suffer God to shewe mercy vpon whom he will shew mercy Rom. 9. without his blasphemous and enuious murmuring I haue tolde you where God will shew full mercy comparing his elect and iust together howbeit that sentence is not in comparison of them among them selues but comparing them with the reprobate to witte where he séeth full penance or full pardon by Christ If you can proue that he will shew as full mercy also where he findeth not that fulnes of Christes grace then call vs hardly enemies for not suffering God to shew mercy vpon whom he will Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another The fourth and last foundation concerneth the reliefe of them in Purgatory and it is this that within the Church or body of Christ one member may helpe another by vertue of the Communion of Saintes Against this Fulke saith Pur. 198. Infra ca. 12. I haue learned in the Scripture that ther is no name giuen vnder heauen by which they may be helped which are not helped by Christes death Act. 4. Who doubteth of that But syr haue you learned in the Scripture that they which are helped by the death of Christ can not through his grace helpe and be holpen one of another Surely I learne in the Scripture that as the rich of this world may helpe the poore with their substance so the rich in good works may spiritually helpe the poore of that kinde 2. Cor. 8. Let your abundance in this present time saith the Apostle to the wealthy Corinthians supply their the poore Hebrews lacke Act. 2.4 that also their abundance spirituall as in the Actes it is passing singular may supplye your lacke But at the least Pur. 199. It is not possible that other mens works aliue shoulde profit them that are dead you say And why so For as much as without Faith it is not possible to please God Heb. 13. That is most true as you and all other Heretikes shall one day finde it Therfore without faith it is not possible that they should profite them Be it so What then We aliue and our brethren in Purgatory both haue faith Yea but D. Allen graunteth that they which are in Purgatory can not by any motion of mind attayne more mercy then their life past deserued That is true Therfore their faith profiteth them nothing for that is a notable motion of the mind And what more Then the merites of other men must profite without faith Two yron coÌ„clusions Although by their faith they can not attayne mercy or profite them selues yet by their faith they are in case to be profited by the prayers works of their fellow members aliue And so are these two yron barres at once broken with so little a doe Example of a childe new borne without life it were not possible to féede him nor to baptize him and though he be aliue he can not procure himselfe foode nor baptisme yet because he is aliue he is in case to be holpen by others thervnto Fulkes common argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christes Passion Infra ca. 12. Now remaineth in this parte but onely your common argument of Christes Passion by it you thinke to ouerthrowe the foundations that stand euen vpon it such is your folly D. Allen in his booke reported the said argument of yours in these words Their extreme and onely refuge is that the payne of Christes passion Pur. 152. and his sufficient payment for our sinnes standeth not with our satisfaction or penance in this life nor with payne or Purgatory in the next Wherevnto he there answereth as the Reader may sée the effect is that an Origenist or one worse then an Origenist might likewise say The passion of Christ because it is omnisufficient standeth not with hell neither But a Catholike would answere him and the Protestantes at once that we must not consider only the omnisufficiencie of it but rather the wil of Christ that suffered it whether he would haue it to workâ— vpon all and euery where because it is omnisufficient or onely vpon his members within his Church and vpon them also whether alwayes and straightwayes to the very full and without all working of any thing or person with it or rather by degrées and proportions by meanes and instrumentes Which being considered all Fulkes allegations will be quickly answered And first whether it folow because it is so sufficient that therefore it worketh alwayes at full If any man sinne after baptisme saith he Pur. 45. 1. Ioh. 2. alleaging S. Iohn Iesus Christ is our aduocate with the father and propitiation for our sinnes That is true But that in playing the aduocate for sinnes after baptisme he requesteth the like and equall grace as he did in baptisme for sinnes afore baptisme where haue you that Pur. 95. 1. Io. 1. In another place you alleage that the bloud of Christ doth purge vs from all our sinnes It is taken out of the same place and hath the same answere to wit that his bloud doth worke more graciously in the Sacrament of baptisme then in the Sacrament of penance And being washed by him we are throughly cleane Ioh. 13. So you alleage immediatly in the same place adding also So that although our sinnes were as redde as skarlet they are made as white as snowe Esay 1. These two places are euident of baptisme reade the text and therefore wée admitte willingly that which you infer there saying Then being throughly purged washed and clensed as white as snow we are made capable without delay of the heauenly inheritance the fruitioÌ„ of eternal glory Neuerthelesse I must put you in minde that your former place Iohn 13. truely alleaged were thus He that is washed in baptisme nedeth not but to wash his fete that is his venial sinnes which he committeth afterwarde although he continue withall in the cleannes of
more playnely in the sixt Chapter But Fulke replieth to this and saith Wheras M. Allen alloweth all the interpretations that the Fathers haue made of the text 1. Cor. 3. by him alleaged as true so long as they affirmed no error he may by the same reason affirme that Contradictories are true As in that saying Mat. 5. of him that shall not come out vntill he haue payd the vttermost farthing some haue expounded that he shal be alwaies punished some that he shall not be alwaies punished How is it possible that both these interpretations can be true Mary thus it is true those He He are not one He but He that shal be alwaies punished is he that to the end of the way that is of this life agréeth not with his aduersarie whom he had deadly iniuried as saying vnto him Fatue and thereby incurring the gilt of Gehenna ignis which is the prison of the damned He that shall not be alwaies punished is he whose iniurie was but veniall Cap. 8. par 3. diui 2. as Racha And so both interpretations agrée wel not onely together but also with the text it selfe as likewise in the last chapter I declared And so much of the Doctors interpretations Now to the other kind of their Testimonies which he alleageth against vs about any of our Controuersies Secondly whether the Doctors geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. j About the Bookes of Machabees And first although it be but a by matter whether the Machabees be Canonicall Scripture or no because the last thing that I intreated of was the Scriptures that be of purgatorie and the Protestantes denie the Machabées for this expresse saying 2. Mac. 12. It is an holy and healthfull meaning to pray for the dead that they may be released of their sinnes And touching this matter he alleageth no Doctor Pur. 214. but onely S. Hierome in two places The answere wherof D. Allen gaue before and that rightly and truly as we shall well perceaue if first we remember what he alleaged for the other part Fulke briefly both reporteth it also replieth vnto it in these wordes M. Allen pretendeth to proue the booke of Machabees Canonicall by authoritie of the Church See cap. 11. coâ—ad 35 when he can not by consent that it hath with the Scriptures of God As though all bookes are Canonicall Scripture which haue consent with the Scriptures The Machabées in déed haue so as also innumerable bookes of Catholike writers and Caluins Institutions too I trow But the Churches authoritie and not such Consent it is that proueth them Canonical The Churches authoritie for the Machabes And the Churches authoritie D. Allen bringeth out of the third Carthage Councell whiche Fulke in his answere saith was a Prouinciall Councell but he must remember that in the 4. Chapter to proue the whole true Church to erre he told vs that this Prouinciall Synode hath the authoritie of a Generall Councell because it was confirmed in the Sixt Generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo And therfore he cannot auoid it but that the Machabées are Canonicall by authoritie of the whole true Church and therfore in déede also Canonicall if any Scripture at all and specially such as was euer by any doubted of be Canonicall whether the true Church may erre or no. And therfore againe he doth but labour in vaine to shew that the Carthage Councell did erre in that Canon because it nameth among the Canonicall Scriptures also fiue bookes of Salomon whereas the Church sayth Fulke as though he had not confessed this Councell to be the Church as much as any other alloweth but three namely the Prouerbes the Preacher and the Canticles Not knowing what S. Augustine that was one of that Councell as Fulke him selfe saith writeth as it were of purpose to geue vs the meaning of that Councell and of others likewise speaking where he also reconeth vp all the same Canonicall Scriptures as the Councell doeth Au. de doc christ lib. 2. cap. 8. And three bookes of Salomon sayth hée the Prouerbes the Canticles of Canticles and Ecclesiastes For those two bookes the one intituled Wisdome the other Ecclesiasticus de quadam similitudine Salomonis esse dicuntur for a certaine likenes are saide to be Salomons although in déede the be not his but Ecclesiasticus is Iesus Siraches and Sapientia is an incertaine authors Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 4. as S. Augustine partely in the same place partly in his Retractations doth say Againe saith Fulke Pur. 215.457 Aug. con 2 Gaudentij Ep. li. 2. c. 23 for an other answere to the Carthage Councell in what sense they did call those bookes Canonicall appeareth by Augustine that was one of that Councell And this Scripture of the Machabees non habent Iudaei sicut c. The Iewes compt not as the Law and the Prophetes and the Psalmes What then Here you see saith Fulke that Augustine howsoeuer he alloweth those bookes yet he alloweth them not in ful authoritie with the law Prophets and Psalmes That which S. Augustine reporteth of the Iewes he ascribeth to S. Augustine him selfe Although also it follow in Augustine immediatly Sed recepta est ab Ecclesia But it is receiued of the Church not vnprofitably if it be soberly read and heard Which wordes also Fulke there alleageth with this note that S. Augustine alloweth not these bookes If Fulke be sober the Machabees are Gods vvord If he be not vvhose fault is that 2. Peter 2. without condition of sobrietie in the reader or hearer As though he allowed no booke of Scripture in ful authoritie because both he all other Catholikes with S. Péeter do require the same condition in the reader of the whole Scriptures that he wrest them not like a madde man to his owne damnation as all heretikes do and as the Donatistes did compting them selues Martyrs if they killed them selues and mainteining it with the example of Razias out of the Machabées to which S. Augustine there answereth He that would in déede know in what sense S. Augustine and his Councell call those bookes Canonicall let him consider that vnder one name of Canonicall they recken at once these with all the other Holy bookes of both Testaments Au. 2. doc christ 8. Totus Canon Scripturarum his libris continetur The whole Canon of the Scriptures is conteined in these bookes Fiue of Moises that is Conc. Cart. 3. Can. 47. Genesis c. sayth S. Augustine And the Councell in like maner Sunt autem canonicae Scripturae and the Canonical Scriptures are these Genesis c. Loe they call them all Canonicall in one and the same sense although S. Augustine there instructeth the student of diuinitie whilest all were not yet generally receaued of the whole Church to preferre some before others Fulkes obiections Read the chapter afore where S. Augustine requireth seauen conditions in the student of Scripture before he be perfect
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
he say the contrarie For these be his wordes That forgiuenes of his sinnes was graunted that he might not be stopped from receiuing life euerlasting and yet the effect of that same threatening followed that his godlines mighte in that humilitie be exercised and proued not onely but also as he saide in another place that he might thereby be beaten temporally for his deserts though he expresse not this cause also in this place for that he had here to answere the Pelagians and shewe some cause why death if it came onely by sinne by originall sinne remaineth still vpon all men euen them also whose originall sinnes are so fully forgiuen in Baptisme that they owe nothing neither eternally neither temporally for them Pur. 43. But for a slat conclusion contradictory to M. Allens assertion I will vse you say the very words of Chrysostome in the 8. Hom. vpon the Epistle to the Rom. Vbi veniâ— ibi nulla erit poena Where there is forgiuenes there is no punishment One may sée by this that you would vse the Doctors words as couragiously as we do if they were on your side as they be on ours But it cooleth your courage because you are faine to coÌ„fesse them in many things to be playne against you and not able neither to mainteine that they be with you when you pretende they be As here S. Chrysostome speaketh of the forgiuenes geuen in Baptisme to the Iew passing from the wrath of the Lawe to the grace of Christ But our assertion speketh of the forgiuenes geuen in the Sacrament of penance to the Christian that hath shamefully dishonored the grace of Christ If such be contradictories with you then as your Diuinitie is new so is your Logicke also new Satisfaction Pur. 87. Against the third you alleage Chrysostome Ambrose but how fondly the very words that you alleage though we seeke no further Chryso de compun cordis li. 1. in fine will declare Non requirit Deus ciliciorum pondus c. God requireth not the burden of shirtes of heare saith Chrysostome nor to be shut vp in the straites of a litle Cell neque iubet neither doth he commaunde vs to sit in obscure darke Caues this only it is which is required of vs that we alwayes remember and â—count our sinnes c. He there reproueth them that 〈…〉 â—rie mourning for their owne soules quasi quidum 〈◊〉 labor sit as if it were a labour intolerable Therefore he saith that God doth not commaund as necessarie that 〈…〉 take him selfe to the straite â—mourning of Monkes 〈…〉 And 〈◊〉 forsooth do tell vs therupon that Chrysostome â—f any man had 〈…〉 â—ther beleeue him speaking of such kind of wo◠〈…〉 his fellowes count to be the chiefe works of pâ—n 〈…〉 that they serue not for satisfaction for our sinnes vnto God 〈…〉 againe Therfore by Chrysostomes iudgement that 〈…〉 satisfaction of Gods righteousnes nor any obedience of Gods commaundement hath banished the Heremites 〈…〉 Anachoretes and cloyed the world with cloysterers but the superstitious and slauish feare of Purgatorie and the blasphemous presumptuous pride of mens merites Thus you take on as it were vpon S. Chrysostomes saying not considering that Demetrius was a Monke to whom he there writeth commending 〈◊〉 singulerly for the very same works of penance 〈…〉 nor that Chrysostome also him selfe was a Monke and that by your owne coÌ„fession and wrote a booke which is extant Aduersus vituperatores vitae Monasticae Against the dispraysers of the Monasticall life that is euen against you also for saying as you do in this place Againe you say Pur. 8â— Aâ— in 〈◊〉 22. li. 1â— What S. Ambrose thinketh of that kind of satisfaction whereof M. Allen speaketh is plaine by those words which he vttereth of Peter Lachrymas eius lego satisfactionem non lego I reade of his teares I reade not of his satisfaction He vttereth these words also there immediatly before Non inuenio quid dixerit inuenio quod fleuerit I find not what he said I find that he wept Whatsoeuer you gather hereof he that readeth the place must néedes gather the contrarie so wit that he thinketh Confession necessarie and satisfaction necessarie but that teares are both a special kind of coÌ„fession for Lachrymae crimen sine offensione verecundiae coÌ„â—tentur Teares confesse the crime without touch of shamfastnes quod voce pudor est consiterâ— that to confesse with voyce is a shamefast thing and also a speciall kind of Satisfaction forLachrymae veniam Teares though they do not aske pardon they obteine it Which yet againe he saith not as though onely teares woulde serue but Peteâ— opened not his mouth least so quicke requesting of pardon might more offend First we must weepe and then request But a playne place to know what S. Ambrose thought of Penance and Satisfaction is his whole booke To the Virgin that had broken her vow and namely these words Ambro. ad virg lapsaÌ„ ca. 8. Pur. 84. Grande sâ—elus grandem habet necessariam satisfactionem For a passing great crime is necessarie a passing great satisfaction Which words import none other thing you say but that an haynous offence must be earnestly bewayled if repentance be not counterfaited As though he there doubted lest her repentance were counterfaite and not earnest saying yet vnto her Tu quae iam ingressa es agonem poenitentiae Thou who art already entred into the or exercise field of penance with muche more to the same effect declaring I say that he tooke her penance to be vnfaigned as béeing well begon but yet besides that her whole life is litle enough to make iust satisfaction vnto God Pardons Wherein he is so vehement that you come agayne on the other side touching our fourth Article and pretende by the same word of his that the Church can not pardon the penance or satisfaction which sinners do owe. Where I say nothing how you ouerthrow your owne ignorant imagination that the old Canonicall satisfaction was onely to satisfie the Church ur 8 5. and not to satisfie Gods iustice As though not only the Church but also euery priuate man may not pardon such kind of satisfaction as the sinner oweth to him and hold himselfe contented with as litle as he list Therfore to omit this He assureth her you say as Cyprian in his Sermon de Lapsis doth the fallen men of his time that forgiuenes of sinnes is proper vnto God onely and followeth not of necessitie the sentence of men but the sentence of men ought to follow the iudgement of God Pur. 73. Alluding belike to the place where somewhat afore you alleaged Cyprian gathered of his words that not onely he plainly denieth that absolute soueraigne authority of men which M. Allen affirmeth but also declareth what he meaneth by satisfaction of God to wit inwarde and hartie conuersion The two places in déede are like although the fall of that
Psalme is it not a prayer for thē trow you or was not Purgatorie trauelled into Affrike neither when S. Augustine wrote as aboue because there also they caried their corpses with Psalmes In so much that soone after S. Augustines death Victor bishop of Vtica reporting the lamentable deuastations of the Catholike Churches there by the Arrian king Gensericus Victor de pers Vand. li. 1. fol. 3. b. saith among other things Quis vero sustineat sine Lachrymis c. And who can abide without teares to remember when he commaunded our deads corpses to be caryed vnto burying with scilence without the solemnitie of Psalmes Which lamentation you haue in England renewed to vs with addition also in that our Priests neither with scilence may burie the corpses of our Catholike brethren but your Ministers a Gods name with whom they would not communicate in their life must haue the laying vp of their bodies after their death a disordered folly in you Heretikes and the sinne of Schisme in suche Catholikes as geue consent vnto it Pur. 327. from .323 To these memories oblations and sacrifice for the dead doth belong also the place of Possidonius whiche you saye proueth plainly that it was the sacrifice of thanks giuing that was offered for the commendation of the godly and quiet deposition or putting off of his body Where he writeth of S. Augustine thus Nobis coram positis c. In our presence the sacrifice was offered vnto God Possid in vita Aug. cap. 31. for the cōmending of his bodies deposition and so he was buried Meaning by the bodies deposition not the putting off by death but the laying downe of it in the earth by burying as by leuatio corporis the taking vp againe of the bodies or Relikes of Saintes you might haue perceiued if you had beene skilfull in Antiquitie And by commending the deposition he meaneth the commendation of his soule to God vpon that day as I tolde you before Both which you might haue playnly vnderstoode by that which D Allen in the very same paragraph alleageth out of S. Augustine speaking of his mother Aug. 9. cōf ca. 12.14 Nam neque in eis precibus ego fleui quas tibi fundimus cum offeretur pro ea sacrificiū precij nostri iam iuxta sepulchrū posito cadauere priusquam deponeretur For neither in those prayers did I weepe which according to her request vpon her deathbed memoriam sui ad altare tuum fieri that memory of her might be made at thy altar we made vnto thee O God when the sacrifice of our price was offered for her the corpse nowe standing by the graue before it was laide downe Which place is so plaine that your selfe are faine to confesse that in the celebration of the Sacramēt the error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remēbraunce of some in the prayers namely because S. Augustine ther moreouer desireth God to inspire all his Priestes reading that booke Vt meminerint To remember at thy Altar Monica thy seruant and Patrike once her husband my Parents Repeating the same againe a litle after in these words In ministration of the Communion there was a speciall remembrance of her in the prayers as there was of all dead in the faith a generall memorie So that you vse indifferently these two prayers for the dead generally and a generall memory of the dead because you saw euidently that S. Augustine by remembring of his father mother at the Altar meant praying for them And yet such a cauiller you are Fulke the ansvverer Fulke the replier that D. Allen in saying memoriam sui a memory of her to be a memory for her must be charged with pseudologia as though she would haue her sonne to be a chauntrie Priest to sing for her not béeing able for all your gybing to deny but that he did both himselfe pray for her at the Altar if that be to be a Chauntrie Priest and procure other Priests to do the same Well by this practise about S. Monica the Reader perceiueth how properly you affirmed that it was only thanks giuing which Possidonius reporteth was done for S. Augustine But for al this you say although a memory or prayer was made for her in the celebration of the Sacrament yet was it not offered for hir as a Sacrifice and as a propitiation of hir sinnes No syr doth he not say expresly The sacrifice of our price was offered for her Yea but he expounded before in plaine words A friend of trust for Protestants August de verb. Apo. Ser. 34. that he meaneth thereby nothing els but the foresaid memorie Those plaine words neither you recite out of him nor no man els can finde in him as neither he nor any other reasonable man would vtter such a meaning in such words But these most playne words I find in him in another place Hoc a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia vt pro eis qui in corporis sanguinis Christi communione defuncti sunt cum ad sacrificium salutare loco suo commemorantur oretur This as a Tradition of her Fathers the whole Church obserueth when they which are departed in the cōmunion of Christes body and bloud for the excōmunicate so were not be in their place mentioned at the healthfull sacrifice to pray for them What more Ac pro illis quoque id offerri commemoretur and to expresse that for thē also the sacrifice is offred Of particular Doctors Whether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatory Notwithstanding all this you will néedes haue fooles beléeue that S. Augustine was doubtfull in the matter of Purgatorie notwithstanding also that he so playnly prayeth for his mother Therefore O Lord God Aug. 9. confes 13. setting aside her good dedes for a while for which with ioy I do giue thee thanks Nunc pro peccatis matris meae deprecor te now I beseeche thee for my mothers sinnes for which at this day we also pray for the most Pur. 328. perfect excepting vndoubted Martyrs vntill by Canonization they be knowen to be Saintes Heare me for the medicine of our wounds that hung on the Crosse and sitting at thy right hand intreateth for vs c. So playnely Pur. 327. I say that you confesse this place to proue prayer for the dead vsed by S. Augustine and are fayne to saye It was all but superstition or will worship in him according to the corrupt motion of his owne minde Pur. 270.279.315 Au. ep 64. Enchi c. 110 de cur c. 18. Pu. 54.110 121.161.187 382. In another place also that he alloweth oblations for them that sleepe to profite somewhat Oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium vere aliquid adiuuare credendum est And yet for all this Augustine was very vncertayne you saye very often vnconstant and doubting of it so that Satan whose instrument you make that blessed Doctor was but then laying
his foundations of Purgatory though in other places contrarying your selfe after your maner you say It was somewhat risely budded vp in his time yea and throughly finished And to proue this his pretensed doubtfulnes you alleage foure bookes of his Enchir. ad Laur. cap. 69. Ad octo Dulc. quaest q. 1. De fide op ca. 16. and De Ciui Dei li. 21. ca. 26. In al which places he repeateth one saying as D. Allen noted before you answering it moste clearely and shewing against this pretensed vncertayntie of his that not onely in other bookes but in all the same bookes also and almost in the very same chapters Pur. 118. he holdeth as a matter of faith and to be beleeued of all Christian men that the prayers of the liuing do release some of their paynes in the next life And constantly as al other Catholikes euer did coÌ„fesseth that the sinnes or vncleane works of the liuing not duely by penance wyped away in this world must be mended after our death For De Ci Dei these words he hath August de Ciui li. 21. ca. 24. 13 Ench c. 110. Ad Dulcit q 2. Tales constat ante Iudicij diem per poenas temporales quas eorum spiritus patiuntur purgatos c. It is certayne that suche men beeing purged before domesday by temporall paynes which their soules do suffer shall not after the resurrection be committed to the torments of the euerlasting fire And a litle after Temporali supplicio ac sanctorum orationibus mundatos being clensed by temporal torment and prayers of the holy ones Which declaration of D. Allens was so euident that your selfe are compelled to say Pur. 110.196 Aug. ciu li. 20. c. 25. li. 21. c. 13.24 Pur. 121. Howbeit 21. booke c. 13. of the same work De ci dei he coÌ„cludeth very clerely and that vpon the texts Mal. 3. Esa 4. Mat. 12. that some suffer teÌ„porall payns after this life This may not be denied And yet that in the same bookes he was vncertaine you haue so playne words that you suppose D. Allen neuer read the places in Augustines owne bookes but onely receiued his notes of some elder Papists that had speÌ„t more time in gathering them but had not such audacitie to vtter them as M Allen. Who but you could or would for shame of heauen earth set such a face vpoÌ„ a matter so cleare of it selfe and so confessed of your selfe But which are those so playne words Ench. c. 69.68 Nonnullos fideles per ignem quendam purgatorium quanto magis minusue bona pereuntia dilexerunt tanto tardius citiusque saluari Some of the faithful after this life to be saued so much later or sooner by a certaine Purgatory fire as the more or lesse they loued transitory goods but yet hauing Christ in their heart for the foundation that is so as they preferred nothing before him but were ready to forsake all rather then him This to be so is not vncredible Et vtrum ita sit quaeri potest aut inueniri aut latere And whether it be so in deede it may be searched and by search either found or not found These are the plaine wordes in which to replye to D. Allens answere you will néedes haue S. Augustine so often in one booke and almost in one Chapter to be grossely contrary to him selfe one while certaine another while vncertaine of one and the selfe same thing But D. Allens answere according to S. Augustines plaine wordes in these chapters also as well as in the others is as it was that he speaketh not still of one thing or of one Purgatorie fire but of two diuerse The one Purgatorie fire is to punish so to purge by temporall paines the soules for there sinnes for their euill life though not so euill vt misericordia habeantur indigni that they may be thought vnworthy of mercy Of this Purgatory S. Augustine with all the faithfull of all ages holdeth him selfe â—o certaine The other Purgatorie fire is as the fire of Tribulation in this life for the most perfit also to passe through euen them whose life was talis in bono vt ista non requirat so good that they neede not to be releeued with the prayers of the Church and therfore not to punish sinne as now we speak of it but only to weare out by litle and litle rerum secularium quamuis licitè concessarum c. suche affections to worldly lawfull things as to wife c. that without griefe of mind he can not part from them so as the other can which builded golde siluer and pearles whose worke therfore is not burned vp quia non ea dilexit quorum amissione crucietur because he did not loue those things with the losse wherof to be tormented And of this Purgatorie S. Augustine was vncertaine as it is in dede very doubtfull saith D. Allen to this day also Pur. 119. not onely because we know not whether such worldly lawfull affections do remayne in the Elect soules departed but also because nothing but sinne and the debt of sinne séemeth to endaunger the soule to any payne whether it be poena sensus or onely poena damni Whervpon to say the truth it séemeth to me more probable although S. Augustine inclined more to the other side that there is not any suche Purgatory but rather that after full penance for sinne or full pardon of it the soule goeth without all delay straight to heauen And so I haue shewed plainly what S. Augustine was certain of and what he was vncertaine of thinking good withall to admonish the Reader that although for more perspicuitie I name two Purgatories out of S. Augustine yet I meane but one purgatory with two diuers operations as it is but one fire of tribulation in this life though it haue those two operations to purge sinne with punishment and to purge worldly lawfull affections with griefe of minde when we must in persecution depart from our beloued That also Purgatorie fire after this life is for the first of these operations it is certayne Whether it be also for the other it is vncertayne Hithervnto perteineth that also where you say Pur. 317. M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine De cura pro mortuis agenda neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto the Saintes for the dead and oppose to his affirming cap. 5. of the same booke Cum ergo mater fidelis c. Therfore when the faithful mother desired of Paulinus Bishop of Nola to haue her sonnes body laide in the Martyrs Church Si quidem credidit eius animam meritis Martyris adiuuari hoc quod ita credidit supplicatio quaedaÌ„ fuit If she thought his soule to be holpen with the Martyrs merites this her thinking was a certaine supplication haec profuit siquid prosuit and this supplication profited if any thing profited Here Augustine you say doubteth whether supplications to the
when the matter was brought before the Pope he tooke such blessed order with it as was very méete for his Apostolike See to wit that the Friars new scandalous booke secreto combureretur should be priuily burned for shaming their order say you And what fault was that I pray you Know you not how S. Augustine vsed Pelagius and his disciples in the beginning of their new doctrine when he first wrote against them Tacenda adhuc arbitratus Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 33. c. I thought good not to expresse as yet their names hoping that so they might more easily be amended Imo Pelagij ipsius nomen non sine aliqua laude posui quia vita eius a multis praedicabatur Yea in my next writing expressing the name of Pelagius himselfe I did it not without some prayse because his life was commended of many Thus did S. Augustin vse one Monke and him the author of a most pestilent Heresie as he proued afterwards And your Christian spirite would haue all the order all Monkes the innocent also shamed for the fault of a few Such would haue bene your care to amend those few and such your prouidence to saue the wheate whereof these fewe might haue made as gret waste if they had not bine wisely handled as Friar Luther now hath made for lacke of a siluer spurre and a Cardinals hatte and as Erasmus also might haue made had he not bene made of by Catholike Bishops farre aboue his merites Yet one shift more you may séeme to haue where you say for your argument ab authoritate negatiuè of the whole Scriptures authoritie negatiuely Pur. 449. And this conclusion M. Allen him selfe made of mans authoritie cap. 13. Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not preached against at their first entry Ergo they are true or rather there was no such entrie of them as you imagine but they came lineally and quietly from the Apostles But of all mens authoritie it is false you say Howsoeuer the argument of all mens authoritie negatiuely be good or bad who but you would call this such a one All heresies according to the Scriptures Fathers and Histories haue bene preached against at their first entry This was neuer preached against Ergo this is no heresie nor neuer since the Apostles time did enter ¶ Names In the thrée next Demaundes I haue thrée easie and familiar notes by our bare names to know which side is right Ar. 66. and which is wrong To that generally Fulke saith He is a foolish sophister that reasoneth from names to the things In what Logike he hath that axiome I know not But this I know and you shal heare it * In the 7. Dem. See cap. 11. his 37. cōtr Aug. in Ps cōt partem Donat. Ar. 68. anone that also him selfe so reasoneth I know moreouer that S. Augustine so reasoneth Dicitis mecū vos esse saith the Church to the Donatists sed falsum videtis esse Ego Catholica dicor vos de Donati parte You say that you be with me But you see it is false For I am named Catholica and you Of Donates part S. Augustine I trow he will not call a foolish sophister nor him selfe a foolish sophister Againe he saith generally If the onely name of an honest man of a learned man of a good Christian is enough to proue the thing many a knaue asse hypocrite may proue himself an honest man a learned man a good Christian As though we said the argument to be good frō euery name to the thing No syr we say it no more but of thrée sort of names of which the Fathers said it before vs and experience teacheth it and you can not disproue it by giuing any instance For there are in it further reasons then onely arguing from names to things 6. Catholikes Motiue 1. Article 20. First then we say that sith the Apostles did bid vs beléeue that church which is named The Catholike Church euermore to this day they haue ben true Catholikes in déede which were in times of Heresies and Schismes commonly called Catholikes and easily knowen thereby For this we alleage among others S. Augustine wherof you take notice which may be written it is so rare a thing in this your booke against the Articles and go about to answere him with his owne words but very fondly as I haue shewed cap. 9. pag. 182. The rest that you haue is oppositions after your custome As where you oppose to this name your stale exception which here cap. 7. Ar. 69. you oppose to all things of Onely Scripture saying Wherfore howhoeuer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in dede by Chrysostomes iudgement Againe By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike Your folly in this allegation I detected cap. 9. pag. 172. neither is it Chrysostomes neither doth he speake of the name Catholike nor of the Apostles writings but of the Apostolike Sees writings Ar. 66. Another opposition You your selues will not account the Grecians now since their separation for true Christians And yet as many nations haue since then called them Catholikes as you are able to shew on your side Though they are not so called by you for no more are you so called by them Be bolde to say ynough how litle soeuer you be able to proue To saye the Grecians be called Catholikes is like as to say the Latines be called Catholikes which were forsooth a proper saying considering that not only we but you also be Latines But this I say that as among the Latine or Westerne Christians he that in common talke or writings heareth Catholikes named vnderstandeth vs therin not you so likewise if he heare the Catholike Gretians or the Catholikes of the East whether he be Latine or Gretian he vnderstandeth them that be with the Pope beléeue the holy-Ghost to procéede of the sonne also not the Schismaticall Heretical Gretians And therfore in this example is nothing to the contrarie but that they be true Catholikes which are knowen by the name of Catholikes And so much you say of the name and rule it selfe Now which of vs two haue that name whether we or you Ar. 66. The Heretike Gretians do not call vs Catholikes you say No more do you that be Heretike Latines But yet both you and they mistake not the person when common talke and bookes so calleth vs. Therfore I say we be true Catholikes On the other side you say Ar. 68. And we haue as many Nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you Heretikes Who be so called any where by publike authoritie is not the question but who be commonly called knowen by that name Howbeit also of any such publike authoritie no man knoweth but your selfe But this
adoring her Esa 49.60 licking the very dust of her feete which they are cōmaunded by the Prophet to do vnder paine of Damnation Ar. 17. Discipline And thereupon D. Allen told you that to be the true Church Which exerciseth Discipline vpon offenders in all degrees And that al true the Christian Kings haue and doe obey her accordingly which is an vnuincible argument for vs against you in this Demaund And yet you haue Kings on your side also since the Reuelation of Antichrist Ar. 33.34.32 The Grecian Emperours that were Image-breakers Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images and called Bertrame to declare his mind vpon the Real presence and transubstantiation and those Princes that defended their maried Priests But least we should obiect that it was but in one or two poynts that these did fauour you Edward the third defended Wickleue Also Zisca Procopius defended the Bohemians and George king of Bohemia was depriued of his kingdome by the Pope for defending the Protestants An. 1466. Which is wel towards an hundred yeres before the name of Protestants by your own confession here Dem. 8. and much more before the religion of the Protestants was coyned For though you say Wickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion yet you may sée in my 40. Dem. that in déede he was not neither also the Bohemians or Hussits But that Edward the third was a Wickleuist who euer heard though I denie not but that Catholike Princes are often times passing negligent in their office and othe to extirpate Heresies vntill by God and his Churches admonition on the one side and by the wast on thother side that Heretikes in time doe make both spiritually and temporally of all Common wealthes they be spurred therevnto The like absurd ignoraunce in stories or rather malice you and your brethren declare in saying that fonde booke against Images to be Charles the greates who was cleane contrarie Cop. Dial. 4. c. 18.19 Sander de Imag. li. 2. ca. 5. an enimie of the Image-breakers as is at large learnedly declared in M. Copes Dialogues Neither is it Carolus Magnus but Carolus rex brother to Lotharius the Emperor An. 840. by Trithemius to whō Bertrame wrote De corpore sanguine Domini Neither was that as the learned thinke for good causes this Hereticall booke which Oecolampadius set foorth vnder Bertrames name And is not this a substantiall reason He declared that he liked not the Real presence and Transubstantiation in that he called Bertrame to declare his mind of that matter How much better may I reason that both the Emperour or King and all Christendome held the Real presence and transubstantiation because this Bertrame durst not but so timerously about the bush after the maner of all heretikes in the beginning go against it as we sée in that booke No no syr As I said before of Nations so I say of Princes If any were euerted he might in some thing fall on your side But those Princes in al countries that were cōuerted from Paganisme also their Successors that continued in their steppes were in no poynt yours but ours in all things 20 In all Persecutions Motiue 15. Article 7. My 20. Dem. is of the persecutions both before the Emperours became Christians also afterwards whē some of thē were peruerted againe with Apostasie or Heresie saying that the Religion which we reade of in those times béeing the Religion of all Martyrs and by Fulkes confession here cap. 2. pag. 4. Pur. 258.312 Ar. 23.24.25 of the true Church is in al poynts ours and in no one poynt the Protestants And to this he hath nothing but only this that all true saints held the foundation Iesus Christ which we do in his sense he doth not in the true sense as I shewed cap. 5. and therefore forsooth it is proued that they all were of his Church notwithstanding he is fayne to say that some of them buylded straw and stubble vpon the foundation they were ours so playnly in many things as he confesseth cap. 3. yea and in all things as I shew cap. 9. In so much as they haue scraped most of their names out of the Callender wherof I shall speake more Dem. 46. Motiue 33. Article 14. 21. Churches In the 21. Demaund I chalenge for ours the auncient Christian churches with their furniture both afore and after the conuersion of the Romane Emperours also in our country namely as in all others And Fulke no lesse chalengeth them to his side here cap. 2. pag. 6. But before we come to the particulers let vs see his answere to D. Allens argument What if it were graunted that all Churches that now remayne Ar. 53. Pur. 339.340 that he addeth whereas D. Allen speaketh generally were buylded by Papists and for Popish vses what haue you wonne thereby As much as néedeth I thinke Why not For the same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a Temple in all the world that was not buylded by Idolaters and to mainteine Idolatrie Were that the same chalenge I pray you The Apostles renounced both those Temples and that Religion you renounce Popish religion but do you also renounce al Churches that now remayne If you do then you renounce also the Churches of the first 600. yeres for innumerable of them as at Rome c. now also remaine But because you may not leaue to vs the Churches of that time also for feare of afterclaps you thinke good to come to the matter and to say But for all your bragges we are able to shew that such Churches as were buylded by true Christians were not buylded to such end as yours are Constātinus Magnus was a true Christian with you also and of him I told you erewhile in the 19. Dem. out of Eusebius that he builded Apostolorum templum A temple of the twelue Apostles in his citie of Constantinople appoynting his owne body to lye in the midle of their 12. shrines Vt defunctus queque precationum quae ibidem essent ad Apostolorum gloriam offerendae particeps efficeretur That also after his death he might be partaker of the prayers whiche there should be offered to the Apostles glory And at his burial accordingly Much people with the Priests preces pro anima Imperatoris Deo fundebant made prayers to God for his soule And likewise to this day we sée saith Eusebius that he enioyeth there the diuine Ceremonies and the Mysticall Sacrifice the societie of the holy prayers This was his end among others and the same was the end of al our Church founders a Pur. 338. to 347. saith D. Allen. Not so saith Fulke for b Pur. 339. Ar. 52.57 Fulk is no babe you may see our Stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this Land to Christianitie the Temples of the Pagane Britons and of the Idolatrous
the Crosse and the Signes thereof it is euident that in your vsuall rayling agaynst dumbe Images Ar. 4. Pur. 20.21.22.460 2. Cor. 6. stockes and stones you do no more but vtter that you are no more of the auncient true Church then of our Church now which you denie to be the true Church S. Paule in déede saith that the Temple of God and Idolles can not agree togeather speaking of Christians that did draw with Infidels as receiuing of meate sacrificed to their Idolles such as now receiue of Caluins bread But that the true Temples of God and Images belonging to the same God agrée well together you can not denie but you must reuoke your owne confession made here of those auncient Temples of Christ And therefore you do but like your selfe to say I care not what your fathers called or counted Sacrilege But God our heauenly father cōmaunded vs to breake burne and destroy al your Idols and to deface al the monuments of them Deut. 12. And all the godly Patriarkes and Fathers both before Christes cōming and since haue giuen vs example hereof What els they gaue vs example to set vp Crosses you example to pull them downe You may roll in suche Rhetorike before fooles that receiue your absurde principles to wit that the Idols of the Paganes were Images of the Christians But when the simplest Catholike doth no more but denie your principle you are by and by non plus No syr but to auoyde prolixitie I could tell you playnely and at large who were your fathers in these spoyles that you haue made of Christes churches to wit the Donatistes the Arrians the Eutychians yea Iulianus Apostata yea and that you haue out-shot them all and left nothing to Antichrist him selfe but onely to fill vp the measure as I haue sufficiently touched cap. 8. pag. 128. And therefore neither will that serue which againe you say Pur. 341. Suche liuings as are appoynted vs by the Prince and the law we may enioy with a good conscience No syr it will not serue For you may remember the storie in S. Ambrose De Basilicis tradendis Ambr. li. 5. post epist 32. ep 33. He would dye rather then to deliuer the Churches to the Emperour and the Arrian Empresse his mother And so you enioy our Churches with as good a conscience as the Arrians should haue done at that time as you shal féele when you come in your course after your seniors before the iust iudge our mothers husband whose Dowries they be 22. Seruice Motiue 32. Article 6. The 22. Demaund is of the Seruice which Fulke in worde chalengeth no lesse then we saying here cap. 2. pag. 4. Constantinus buylded those Churches for our assemblies and Seruice and in the Cryptes also before that our assemblies were kept But in déede he confesseth that it was ours and reiecteth it accordingly so that I must stande here to defende it rather then to clayme it Pur. 377. His defence of their new Communion booke is this Whosoeuer were children of the true Church would neuer finde faulte with our Communion which can not be condemned by the worde of God and therefore careth not for the comparison of the custome of other men which whether they vsed the like or not in forme of words whith is not materiall so they vsed not other substance of matter except they did it besides the worde of God And yet it must be preiudiciall to our Masse booke not that the hooke was made since the Apostles time Ar. 21.38 Pur. 402.413 but that any peece was added since by certain Popes yea though the very same péeces be reteined in their cōmunion booke also Let al men therfore consider how iust the defence is that I made in this Demaund to wit that no péece be it neuer so new neither in the Masse booke nor in our other Seruice bookes is contrary to the old faith of the Apostles conteined in the word of God written or vnwritten yea the same in substance and cōmonly in forme of words also was in the Apostles and Fathers Churches The Primitiue Church had the same seruice that the church 〈◊〉 hath Let one example hereof be Prayer for the dead and that also in the Canon of the Masse as Fulke him selfe confesseth here at large cap. 3. pag. 16. to .21 And whatsoeuer he obiecteth against the Primitiue Church and vs for it saying they had it of the Diuell c. cap. 3. pag. 22. that it is against the Scriptures and contrary to the same Doctors them selues I haue answered all cap. 6. pag. 47. to 56. and cap. 8. pag. 133. to 134. and cap. 9. pag. 161. to 164. pag 193. to 214. Let another example be praying to Saintes as he also confesseth here cap. 3. pag 10. And what he obiecteth against the Faters and vs for it I aunswere cap. 6. and cap. 8. pag. 138. sauing one place of S. Augustines Ar. 55. vpon which he saith Note that no Sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs but prayer is a Sacrifice therfore it ought to be offered only to God Secondly that Martyrs were not called vpon in the time of the Sacrifice but onely named for remembraunce Cunningly noted as appeareth by these words of his in another place Aug. tract 84. in Ioa. De ve Ap. sermo 17. Non sic beatos Martyres c. We do not make such a commemoration of the blessed Martyrs as of other that rest in peace that we also pray for them but rather that they may pray for vs. Was this to be onely named for remembraunce Neither in the * Aug. ciui li. 22. ca 10. place that you alleage doth he say that they were not called vpon in the time of sacrifice but Non tamen a Sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur The Priest that sacrificeth Aug. Ciuit. li. 8. ca. 27. Offerimus domine pater praeclare maiestati tuae c. doth not inuocate them And what he meaneth by his inuocation that sacrificeth he declareth there afore saying Which of the faithfull euer heard the Priest standing at an Altar though also made vpon the holy body of a Martyr for Gods honor and seruice to say in the prayers or Canon Offero tibi Sacrificium Petre vel Paule vel Cypriane I offer sacrifice to thee O Peter or Paule or Cyprian But otherwise for praying to Martyrs S. Augustine is very playne in the same worke the same booke and almost the same chapter telling certaine Myracles one in a woman that prayed to the holy Martyr S. Steuē Aug. ci l. 2. ca. 8.9.10 in S. Augustines owne Church ad sanctum Martyrem orare perrexerat another in a poore man that prayed aloude to the twentie Martyrs in the same towne ad viginti Martyres clara voce orauit And such Myracles are done he saith by God at the Martyrs suite instance eis orantibus impetrantibus And therfore whether prayer be
maketh mention also of a Eus li. 7. ca. 19. the Hymnes of Nepos Theodoretus and Zosomenus of e Theo. lib. 4. ca. 24. Zoso l. 3. ca. 15. the Hymnes of S. Esrem in the feastes of Martyrs and S. Augustine very often of f Aug. retr li. 1. ca. 21. Confes l. 9. ca. 6.7.12 the Hymnes of S. Ambrose The Councell of Laod. doth no more but forbid priuatos vulgares Psalmos priuate and vulgar Psalmes made by simple men to be said in the Church as the g Con. Mil. ca. 12. Con. Cart. 3. ca. 23. Mileuitane Councell also commaundeth that no other prayers or collectes or Masses or prefaces or commendations or handlayings be said in the Church nisi quae a prudentioribus tractatae But such as haue bene examined by some more skilfull or allowed in the Synode least it chaunce something to be made against the faith or by ignoraunce or by negligence Likewise touching lessons the Councel of Laod doth no more but forbyd the Apocryphall Scriptures libros non Canonicos to be read sed solos Canonicos veteris noui Testimenti but the onely Canonicall bookes of the olde and new Testament Con. Cart. 3. ca. 47. Ar. 20. as also the .3 Councell of Carthage decreeth that beside the Canonicall Scriptures nothing be read in the Church vnder name of the diuine Scriptures for which cause both Councelles doth there declare which bookes be Canonicall and the Carthage Councell addeth also that the Martyrs Passions may be read when their anniuersarie dayes be celebrated These examples declare manifestly that you detest in our seruice euen those things which were in the seruice of the Primitiue Churche and all without cause and that it is an horrible blasphemie where you say If you demaund whence your Ceremonies VVhy then do you kepe them novv festiuall dayes feastes and varieties of Seruice did proceede I aunswere plainly out of the bottomlesse pit of Hell For touching dayes also which may be the last example of Fasting and Feasting you confesse cap. 3. pag. 13. and cap. 6. pag. 43. that Aerius and Iouinianus were condemned in the Primitiue Church for Heretikes because they denyed the dayes and merites of Fasting and the Scriptures that you obiect against the Fathers vs for it I haue aunswered cap. 8. pag. 140. to .143 Ar. 20. Likewise you confesse that Festiuall dayes were vsed in the Primitiue Church adding to shewe of what Church you be that they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion wel But they were not kept in honour of the Saints as they are of the Papistes for that is great Idolatrie as also to build Churches in the honor of Saintes but only for the memory of the martyres and other Saintes that their good life might be followed Whether for that onely let S. Augustine be witnesse where he saith The Christian people doth celebrate together the martyres memories with religious solemnitie Aug. cōtra Faust l. 20. ca. 21. Et ad exitandam imitationē et vt meritis eorum consocietur atque orationibus adiuuetur Both to stirre vp imitatiō and to be ioyned in felowship to their merites and holpen with their prayers Was not this to kéepe their memories in their honor also As againe it is manifest not onely by certayne places alleaged before but also in the very words that you alleage de ver Relig. cap. 55. Ar. 20.54 The saints must be honored for imitation not adored for religion Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honour the blessed Angels with charitie not with seruice Doth he not here expresly auouch their honoring As for your note that Seruitus is the same that Dulia is contrary to the Papists which will worship them with seruice called Dulia or Seruitus it is but your vnacquayntance in S. Augustines writings Reade De Ciuit. Dei li. 10. ca. 1. Seruitus Latria Latriam quippe nostri vbicunque sanctarum Scripturarum positum est interpretati sunt Seruitutē For whersoeuer in the holy Scriptures in Gréeke is put Latria our Latines haue translated it Seruitus And so you may sée that he vseth Seruitus for Latria not for Dulia as also he vseth Religio for thresceia béeing synonymum to Latreia But saith he speaking of cultus Deitati debitus the worship due to the Godhead Propter quem vno verbo significandū quoniam satis mihi idoneum non occurrit Latinum Greco c. Because to signifie it in one word I finde no Latin word apt ynough neither Religio nor Seruitus although in that booke De vera Relig. he so vsed them being yet but a Lay man I do where it is necessarie vtter my mind by the Greeke word Latria Lo I haue alleaged here no more but as an answere And yet I haue made it manifest that notwithstanding all his obiections yea also by his owne confession the Seruice of the Primitiue Church was ours and not the Protestants defending it also easily against his vaine cauils Ar. 38.40.49 Neither shal he euer be able to shew that any Church Latin or Gréeke Brytish or other had authenticall seruice but it was ours as D. Allen told him before Now as for the Language in which the Seruice is Seruice in Latine that maketh no difference in the Seruice it selfe For praying for the dead is all one whether it be in Latine or in English Yet because he holdeth that it ought to be in the vulgar tongues let vs sée what be his groundes thereof Ar. 49.40 We can easily shew it out of the Scripture so he saith but no word that he alleageth any where But bylike he meaneth the place to the Corinthians by which his fellowes do commonly reiect the Latin Seruice as if it were that miraculous gifte which the Apostle there calleth 1. Cor. 14. Loqui linguis to speake with tongues Which also he doth not reiect but moderate for the varietie of certayne much like to * Pur. 7. some Protestantes that thinke all learning to be the tongues Now if any learned man séeing it is not the seruice that S. Paule there speaketh of thinke yet that one may argue thence at the least a simili Let him consider first that so the maner of the simple Catholikes who praye to them selues priuately in the Latine tongue which they vnderstande not is not condemned but iustified For He that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men but yet to God And he that speaketh in a tongue doth also edifie him selfe in spirite that is in affect For if I pray in a tongue my spirite or affection prayeth though my vnderstanding be without fruite And therefore If thou blesse or giue thankes in spirite thou doest it well But if there be no Interpreter let him be silent in the Churche and speake to him selfe and to God The difference is onely this that those Corinthians receiued immediately of the holy Ghost such prayers
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
6. he was to blame As also to tell vs that the Creatures of God are Sanctified by the word of God and by prayer 1. Tim. 4. Specially to attribute so passing muche to the prayers of the holy Ghost that is to the prayers of the Church encouraging vs and saying Rom. 8. the Holy Ghost also doth helpe our weaknes praying for vs with groanes vnspeakable as he that knoweth the hartes of the Catholike Church can tell howsoeuer blinde Heretikes do thinke that God will do nothing by water for prayer Epip Haer. 19. Againe he sayeth Of the Ossenes who were another sect of the Iewes you tooke the great estimation of water salte oyle bread c. And vse to sweare by them as they did You do not charge vs I trow as teching this swering in cōmon talke without truth or without cause Nor you be not I trow an Anabaptist to condemne eyther all swearing or swearing by Creatures What besides these you should meane to charge vs withall I know not But I know what Epiphanius chargeth the Ossenes withall to wit for frequentinge othes as we do prayers and that for diuine honor of septem testes seuen witnesses prescribed vnto them by their master Elxai which were these Salt Water Earth Bread Heauen Ayer and Winde At another time these Heauen Water Spirits the holy Angels of prayer Oyle Salte and Earth but in no case fire Therefore if Catholikes be not plaine Ossens I report me to you The same Elxai prescribed a prayer saying in the booke of his fables Let no man seeke the interpretation but onely say these words in his prayer Abac anid moib nochile daasim ani daasim nochile moib anid abac selam Of him therfore we learned saith Fulke to cōmaund the people to pray in an vnknowen tongue Epiphanius sheweth that his prayer was nothing at all when it was interpreted Belike the Pater noster and Aue are such or els the Priuate prayers of the Corinthians in more strange tongues then the Latin is to the people of the Latin Church which yet S. Paule commendeth as I shewed in the 22. Dem. But he commeth also to our publike prayer and saieth Epip Haer. 34. The Marcosians when they baptized after their strange maner mentioned here cap. 6. pag. 50. vsed to speake certaine Hebrue wordes quae magis admirationi sint that the ignorant people might maruel the more at them as you do in Baptisme Ephata c. Mar. 7. Euen as truly as S. Marke in his Gréeke Gospell sayeth the same in the very same maner with the interpretation Ambro. de Sac. li. 1. c. 1. Apoc. 19. as we do in Baptisme and as in S. Ambrose time also we did to be forsooth maruelled at the more Epphatha quod est adaperire which is to say Be thou opened And as S. Iohn in his Greke Apocalypse so often vseth for maruell forsooth the Hebrue words Amen which in other Scriptures also yea and in your owne prayers is commonly vsed and Alleluia of which two S. Augustine saith that I may note somewhat here against your Seruice where you note nothing agaynst ours not onely that in the Latine translations of the Bible they be reteined Propter sanctiorem authoritatem for more holy authoritie Au. de doc Chri. li. 2. c. 11. inter Epist 174. although it was possible to interprete them but also that all Nations doe sing them in the Hebrewe worde quod nec Latino nec Barbaro licet in suam linguam transferre Not being lawfull neither for the Latine nor for the Barbarian to translate them into his owne language Of the Marcionistes you learned to giue women leaue to Baptise You doe therein your selues by order of your booke Epip Haer. 42. as muche as we doe Marcion is noted for confounding all order as consecrating the mysteries in presence of Catechumeni so likewise allowing women to Baptize solemnely as though they might haue that office as well as Priestes We say onely that for necessitie Christ alloweth any person to Baptize Ruff. hist li. 1. ca. 14. in so muche that the Primitiue Church also hath allowed the baptisme which a boye hath giuen to his playfellowes Which you woulde neuer carpe but that like a Pelagian Puritane here cap. 6. pag. 65. you denie the necessitie of Baptisme Aug. Haer. 88. Pelagia saying that children etiam si non baptizentur although they be not baptized may come to life euerlasting and to the kingdome of God Pu. 13.405 Ar. 44. So playnly you are proued to be Pelagians But yet we in our consciences forsooth must néedes be Pelagians for holding Free wil and merites of works as they did and not Predestination and grace as Augustine did How they did holde it eyther you knew not or it was not for your hipocrisie to report it Sure it is that a Hier. pro. con Pelag. Au. de fide con Mani ca. 9 10. Chry. hom 45. in Io. 6. Manichaeorum est liberum auserre arbitrium It is the Heresie of the Manichies to denie Free-will Sure it is againe that S. Augustine denying the Pelagians merites that is such as procéede of man him selfe and go before grace yet holdeth the Catholike merites that is such as procéede of grace b Aug. epi. 46. The Pelagian Heretikes do say quoth he the grace of God to be giuen according to our owne merites quod omnino falsissimum est Which is vtterly moste false not that there is no merite either good of the godly or euill of the vngodly but the grace of god doth conuert a man that of a wicked one he may be made a iust one and so may beginne to haue good merites which God shall crowne when the world shall be iudged This is the doctrine of the Catholikes and is most euident to be séene in the Councell of Trent Con. Trid. Ses 6. But you denying all good merits do like Hipocrites conceale from the people that distinction of merites before grace and merites after grace making as though all which hold merites so much as after grace be Pelagians But that we hold also merits before grace as they did you will proue by the distinction De cōgruo condigno For God is as much bound to congruity as to dignitie or worthines and as he can do nothing against worthines no more can he do any thing against congruitie which is a kind of equitie We also our selues do hold that a man of him selfe without Gods speciall helpe can not merite so much as de congruo the grace of God though we haue no resolute warrant to call the contrarie Pelagianisme or Heresie and that with better argumēts then this of yours or els we might hold our peace which you can not For you imagine that if God do not that which is congruous he doth against congruitie Not so good syr for it is congruous to his mercy to saue the simple that followe you only of
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon