for Christ He hath left him an example 1. Pet. 2.21 that he should follow his steppes It is more for his profit so to doe than he is aware Who would be an enemie to his owne good he cannot cease to sinne except he die why should he be vnwilling to escape so great an euill he shall neuer come to the true life where felicity both ioyfull and eternall is except he die why should he neglect to attaine so great a good he shall neuer haue the fruition of Gods maiestie and the blessed company of heauenly spirits except he die why should he not pray daily to be deliuered from this present euill world vppon condition he might once come to enioy the most glorious presence of the almighty The very heathens which knew not God aright but only dreamed of the immortalitie of the soule as those that look'te for a better life after this though they knew not what that life was or might be both wished death ere it came and died valiantly and ioyfully when it came and shall he being a Christian one which knoweth both God and his word and hath the promise of ioy hope and comfort after this life both abhor death ere it comes and refuse to vndergoe it when it comes oh fie for shame that it should be so If an Ethnicke said thus Cic. lib. 1. quest Tuscul Oh immortall God how is that pleasant and ioyfull iourney to be wished for which being once done and past there remaineth no sorow no care no pensiuenes ô that goodly and pleasaunt daie when it shall be my hap to leaue this filthy and troublesome world and come to their companies that inhabit the heauens Id. de senectute If God would suffer me that I being of this age might become an infant and sucking childe againe I would vtterly refuse it neither would I by any meanes call the race that I haue runne backe againe that I might againe be young For what pleasure and commoditie hath this life yea rather what displeasure incommodity paine trauell and trouble hath it not but let it be graunted that it hath pleasures certes yet hath it either saciety or measure And nature in this world hath giuen vs a place to tarrie in for a while but not to dwell and continue in for euer What should a Christian say to him should death be much better and lesse bitter than to an heathen Of him therefore should death be better accepted than of any heathen But it is a world to see the world the heathen writers in their monuments call death a chaunging for a better life a quiet sleep are-mouing frō mortalitie to immortalitie from trouble to quietnes from the shadow of a life vnto a very perfit and vncounterfet life from sorrow to ioy from euill to good and hauen of rest a solace of the minde and end of all euill and wickednesse and a beginning of all true ioy felicitie and pleasure and therefore they were vnwilling to liue The Christian professours acknowledge all this and more too and yet they are vnwilling to die What must follow heereupon but that they must therfore be their iudges It is said that one once hauing read a little booke of Platoes touching the immortalitie of the soule did therefore make a way himselfe being thereto incensed by too great a loue to eternitie a better life How much more should he that hath read the whole booke of God touching the happie estate of soule and bodie after death be willing well to welcome death when God doth impose and lay the same vpon him 1. In Gods booke of life there are better reasons found to perswade by thereto than in Platoes booke of the immoratlitie of the soules there are any to enforce the making away of a mans owne life 2. God hath more authoritie ouer the soule of man to recommaund it againe to himselfe at his pleasure than man hath ouer his life to deceiue himselfe of it when he will God is the first giuer and therefore should be the first receiuer Man is the sole recaller therefore should be the safe keeper But not longer than the first doner is content he should enioy such a gift All good men haue euer desired to depart with it when God was purposed to recall it And what should not he that is sicke doe the like either his sicknesse hath made him good or it ought to haue made him good For sickenesse is euer sent for good and Gods great mercy it is that he warnes with sickenesse ere euer he strikes with death If it hath made him good why is hee vnwilling to lay downe his life when God doth call for his life if it hath found him good why would he longer detaine it life than he may If it be to make him good why doth he hinder the working of it be he good or hath he a minde to be good it is not his part to be vnwilling to die So farre from being vnwilling to die haue sundrie of the godliest wights that euer were in the world been as earnestly they haue longed wished desired and prayed for death That Princely Prophet Dauid cryeth out and saith Woe is me and sorie am I for it Psal 120.5 that I must yet longer abide in this world like as the hart desireth the water broookes Psalm 42.1 so longeth my soule after God My soule is a thirst for God yea euen for the liuing God when shall I come to appeare before the presence of God Psalm 84 1 And againe O how amiable are thy dwellings thou Lord of hostes my soule hath a desire and longing to enter into the courts of the Lord my heart and my flesh reioyce in the liuing God Blessed are they that dwell in thy house they shall alway bee praysing thee One day in thy courts is better than a thousand I had rather be a doore keeper in the house of my God than to dwell in the tents of vngodlinesse In another Psalme he prayeth after this manner Psal 142 7◠Deliuer my soule out of prison that it may come and praise thy name That good olde man Tobit Tobit 3.6 made thus his prayer vnto God and said O Lord deale with me according to thy will and 〈…〉 commaunde my spirit to be receiued in peace For more expedient were it for me to die than to liue How desirous of death the holy Apostle Paul was these his wordes doe manifest Christ is to me life Philip. 1.21 23. and death is to me aduantage And therefore againe he saith I desire to be loosed and to be with Christ What should I speake of that auncient and godly father Simeon whose historie is knowne laid down in the second of Luke how did he desire to die as soone as he had seene Christ in the flesh and know him to be the Sauiour of the world Was not this thereupon his present saying Lord now lettest thou thy
if it happen we finde they haue otherwise thought than the trueth may beare them Such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine But here in this matter of which we now intreate I stand more vpon his negation than either his affirmation or his dubitation First because hee therein accordeth with the holy canonicall scriptures which I some while mentioned ere euer I him named Secondly because he oftener denieth it according to the scripture than he either affirmeth it or doubteth of it altogether against the scriptures for besides the places named in which he denyeth it which for weight if not for number are able to counteruaile all those in which he either affirmeth it or doubteth of it hee denieth it also in his first booke against the Pelagians where he thus saith August lib. 5. cont Pelag A third place we know none neither doe we finde in the holy scriptures that there is any such out of the forge of thine owne conceite O Pelagian fayne thou such an one to be And in his Enchiridion where he thus saith August Enchirid. cap. 67. They which teach that some men are punished in a long continuing fire but not eternall are deceiued through a certaine humane beneuolence for the holy scripture being consulted with answereth another thing And also in his questions of eitheir testament where hee thus saith In the world to come there is onely remuneration August in quaest vtriusque Testament and condemnation but here in this world sinnes are either loosed or bound But why stand I thus long vpon him vpon whom if I stoode nothing at all the trueth of that I say would be neuer a whit the more impaired or weakened It is because I was thereto vrged and moued and not because my matter had been naught vnles by him it had been confirmed for the ground thereof is good And therefore as thaâ— house will stand which is built vpon a roâ—ke so will this doctrine which is grounded vpon the trueth Q. So let it then for I see by that which â— said against purgatorie that there is little ground for purgatorie R. Neuer little it as if there were any but rather none it because there is none at all for except it be in Philosophers and Poets Purgatorie hath no ground And what should wee doe with the authoritie of Philosophers and Poets against the expresse testimonie of scriptures and Fathers Alphonsus lib. 8. de haeres de Indulgent Polydor. Virg. de Inuent lib 8. cap. 7. August lib. 2. ad Gaudent Vntill this day of the Grecians or of the East Church Purgatorie was neuer beleeued saith Alphonsus and of Purgatorie among the auncient fathers there is either no mention at all or very seldome yea euen vntill this day the Grecians beleeue it not saith Polydore Virgill And though they did yet were that nothing to vs. For wee must not alwaies imitate or allowe whatsoeuer allowed persons haue done but lay the iudgement of scriptures to it to see whether they allowe the doing of it Exod. 23.2 For thus they runne Thou shalt not follow a multitude to doe euill neither agree in a controuersie to decline after many and ouerthrowe the trueth Iere. 23.16 And againe Heare not the words of the Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanitie they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. And againe 1. Ioh. 4.1 Beleeue not euerie spirite but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world And to the same the auncient writers accord saith Ignatius Whosoeuer speaketh any thing more than is written Ignatius in his epistle to Hieron although he be worthie credit although hee fast although hee keepe his virginitie although he doe miracles although he prophecie yet let him seeme to thee a wolfe in the flocke of sheepe saith Hierome After the Apostles of Christ Hieron super Psal 86. notwithstanding some man be holy notwithstanding he be eloquent yet he wanteth authoritie and saith Picus Mirandula We ought to beleeue a simple plaine husbandman or a childe Picus MiraÌ„dula in the quest Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell Deut. 12.32 or an olde woman rather than the Pope and a thousand Bishops if the Pope and the Bishops speake against the Gospell and the others with the Gospell If the scriptures allowe not what wee would haue allowed we must not allow it Deut. 12.32 Saith the Lorde Whatsoeuer I commaund you take heede you doe it thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought therefrom If any man shall adde vnto these things Reuel 22.18 19. God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if any man shall diminish of the words of the booke of this prophecie God shall take away his part out of the booke of life and out of the holy citie and from those things which are written in this booke Q. An hard sentence a heauie burthen I see well by this that wee must beleeue neither Pope nor Papist in their purgatorie cause R. You may be right well assured of that for therein they speake not with the Gospell But they adde to the Gospell and diminish from the Gospell yea and speake against the Gospell The Gospell saith Christ the Lambe of God hath taken away the sinnes of the world But they say Purgatorie must doe somewhat thereto The Gospell saith The guilt of sinne being remitted the punishment thereof cannot be reteyned They say The guilt of sinne being remitted some part of the punishment thereof and fire in purgatorie must be sustained The Gospell saith God doth not punish one sinne twise They say The sinne that God doth in part punish here he doth afterward more fully punish in purgatorie The Gospell saith All the punishments that God doth leuie vpon sinners after this life is in hell They say Some punishment that God doth lay vpon sinners after this life is in Purgatorie The Gospell saith After this life there is no punishment of sinne temporall any where They say Yes in Purgatorie Thus in this poynt are they and the Gospell contrarie Q. Yet by hearing and reading of others I haue found that much they pretend the Gospell R. That is not vnlike yet are you not therfore euer the more to credit them in what they say For thus saith Saint Cyrill In concil Calcedon act 1. Athanas cont Arrianos orat 1. All heretiques out of the heauenly inspired scriptures gather occasion of their error And thus Athanasius Heretikes vse the words of the scripture for a bayte Q. I but they doe not so R. The better for them if it be not found so but I feare me as Tertullian sayd of one heretike Tertullian de Baptismo Hee assaulteth the faith by the same words of God that breedeth faith so wee may well say of them They
of all men R. Euen asmuch as I would desire and more then so much as you did require For what did I desire or you require but to know what God did in euerie mans Death whether he determined of the time or not and whether he fore-knew what he had determined And now whether of these is it which is not here manifested and explained the first or the last surelie surelie neither of both Not the first because he determined the time of Christs death and what agreed to the head agreeth with the parts but Christ is the head and those of the Church are his members If therefore the Death of Christ the head to the whole bodie were fore-seene as fore-seene it was the Death also of euerie member of his mysticall bodie is also fore seene and ordeined also by the speciall decree and appointment of God Neyther yet the seconde because he determined not onelie the time but also the place and manner and ende of Christs death togither with other circumstances thereto appertaining and belonging and he determines nothing which he did not fore-knowe for his fore-knowledge is conioyned with his decree If therefore he so dealt with Christ it cannot be but that so also hee dealeth with others for as the Apostle saith Those which he knew before Rom. 8.29 he also predestinated to be made like to the Image of his Sonne Thus now you see that the Death of Christ is asmuch to the Death of all men as either I desired or you required Q. But you said it was more R. If so I did say It is not otherwise then now I doe say for the more comprehendeth the lesse Q. But yet the more is neuer the more prooued R. Why say you so seeing I euen nowe said that in the death of Christ there was not onelie time when place where and maner how but also persons by whom fore-seene and preappointed by God that in his owne euerlasting Counsell and decree doth not that proue what you latelie saide was vnproued Q. Yes if that were proued R. Neuer if at the matter the saying of the Apostle Peter in the fourth of that Actes latelie rehearsed in the verses 27. and 28. doth sufficientlie proue that for there it is said Herode and Pontius Pilate and the Gentiles Act. 4.27.28 and the people of Israel gathered themselues together against Christ Iesus to doe whatsoeuer the hand and Counsell of God had determined to be done Now it is well knowne by the historie of the Gospell written by the Euangelists Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn what was done Nothing therefore of that which was done vnto him at his death in his death or concerning his death was either vnknown and vnforescene or vnappointed and vndecreed by God himselfe Q. Admit that may we not therefore make a doubt touching the death of other men R. No surelie we ought not Q. And why R. For the resemblance that is betwixt Christ and his members Q. What then affirme you that the death of euerie man is not onelie fore-seene but also fore-appointed of God so as Death can neither come sooner nor later in respect of God but iust at the time appointed by him R. Yea that I doe and more too Q. More too what 's that R. That the very circumstances of death as the time when the place where the manner how together with the beginning of the sickenes the continuance in the same with euerie fitte and the ende thereof with euerie pange are all particularlie set downe in the Counsell of God Q. This more is much and more by much then before you spake of R. Whatsoeuer it is It is no more then I may as truelie as boldelie speake For our Sauiour Christ saieth Mat. 10.30 The verie haires of our heads are numbred and a Sparow lighteth not vpon the ground without the wil and prouidence of our heauenlie Father And if God hath care of haires and Sparowes he is not careles of those things which betyde his Seruants eyther in Death at Death or about Death For things are greater thē the numbring of haires and the lighting of Sparowes Psal 139.15 For this cause Dauid saith in the Psalmes My bones are not hid from thee though I was made in a secrete place and fashioned beneath in the earth thine eyes did see me when I was without forme for in thy booke were all my members written which in continuance were fashioned when as there was none of them before For the same cause may euerie one in sickenes say this is thy doing ô Lord heere is no more then thou imposest vpon me thy pleasure it is that thus and thus I should be tormented and afflicted Q. But doth this necessarilie follow of the former R. What else for why should not a man be patient in his sickenes when hee knowes the Lord to be the cause of his sickenes For what man may resist his will Or why should a man immoderatelie feare Death when he knowes God to be the worker of his Death what should he feare that which is both fore-seene ere it comes and fore-appointed when it comes I held my tongue and said nothing Psal 39.10 saith Dauid because thou Lord diddest it Loe the Lords doing was the cause of his patient abiding the Lordes doing also in each mans Death should bee the cause of each mans patient suffering and expecting of Death Psal 135.6 Mark 7.37 For as he doth euerie where whatsoeuer pleaseth him so doth he well anie where whatsoeuer he doth Q. That which you say should be as you say but it will not be R. That is the iniquitie of man and not the infirmitie of this truth What it should be it will be if it be well thought vpon For what should man feare what the Lord will haue to be No man can resist his will euerie man praieth that his will may be done Matth. 6.10 Now when no man can resist his will euerie man praieth for the accomplishment of his will what should anie man immoderatelie feare what he cannot possiblie auoide and what he dailie praieth may betyde It is follie it is vanitie it is iniquitie so to doe When yong Samuel had tolde old Elie all that the Lord had threatned and was purposed to bring vpon his house for the wickednes of the same this was olde Elies saying to yong Samuel It is the Lord 1. Sam. 3.18 let him doe what seemeth him good When faultles death hath seised vpon fearefull man this should bee his saying It is the Lord let him doe what seemeth him good his will it is I should dye his will I cannot resist his will bee done August sup Psalm 35. It is the Iustice of God that some time thou beest well and sometime thou beest sicke If when thou art well the will of God be sweete and when thou art sicke the will of God be bitter thou walkest not with a right heart Wherefore because
assault the faith by those things which engender faith For as the diuell fought against Christ with the scripture so they often fight against the trueth with the scripture If time would permit and oportunitie did serue I could shew you what I say by those places of the scripture which they pretend for what therein and out they pretend for purgatorie makes wholly and fully against purgatorie But I cannot here and now stand to manifest what I say Q. If you will not confute what others doe say for it why haue you sayd so much against it R. To proue that they which depart hence in the faith of Christ doe goe to better friends and companie than here then they forgoe or euer before they enioyed Q. And might you not haue done that though you had neuer sayd so much against Purgatorie R. No indeede for euer there would haue beene some doubt whether they should not haue gone thither Q. What and though they had been perswaded of that yet should they not therefore haue doubted euer the more of this For as the Purgatorie patrons auouch there comes no bad persons into purgatorie as Origen a fautor of this error saith Origen in Psal 36. homil 3. As I suppose all wee must needes come into that fire yea although it be Paul or Peter R. But they would haue been somewhat the lesse willing to haue dyed and so would any one that is to dye for thither they must all haue gone to paine and no man is willing to goe to paine though he goes to neuer so good companie but all talke of companie in purgatorie is but lies and vanitie for as there is no purgatorie so there is therein no companie Locus and Locatum i. the place and that which is therein placed are relatiues If therefore there be not any such place as purgatorie as in trueth there is not there cannot bee any such thing as better friends than any in this world are to be found placed in Purgatorie but you knowe it is manifest that there is no such place therfore it must be denyed that there is any such company for if the place be not the companie cannot bee the nature of relatiues is such that if the one of them be the other must also be Q. But this ere you goe shall or will any bee euer the more willing to dye because after his death he shall not goe into Purgatorie R. Whatsoeuer any one is euery one should for dying in Christs feare and christian faith euery one shall bee sure to escape all punishment which is painefull and attaine to peace and pleasure which is ioyfull Q. And shall he that doth so come to euer the better friends for that R. What else Heb. 12.22.23 24. For he shall come vnto the mount Sion and to the citie of the liuing God the celestiall Ierusalem and to the company of innumerable Angels and to the congregation of the first borne which are written in heauen and vnto God the iudge of all and to the spirits of iust and perfect men and to Iesus the mediatour of the new Testament and to the blood of sprinkling which speaketh better things than that of Abell And are not these better friends than any here are or are to be found Q. Yes verilie I thinke that for here are none that either may or can doe as these alwaies may and some times doe Neither are there here any that in times past haue done at these haue done But haue you euer read or heard that this hath taken the effect you speake of in any R. Yea in many for such effect it tooke in one whome Tully speakes of in the first booke of his Tusculane questions such effect it tooke in Socrates of whome Erasmus writeth in the third of his Apothegmes and such effect it tooke in Cercidas Ciuis Megalopolita ex Arcadia of whom Aelianus reportes in his thirteenth booke de varia historia Q. Why what say these great writers of those of whom they write R. Of his man Tully recordes that hee should say Cic. lib. 1. Tuscul q. Oh that goodly and pleasant day when it shall be my chance to leaue this filthie and trouble some world and come to their company that inhabite the heauens Of Socrates Erasmus reports Erasmus lib. 3. Apo. that when Crito vpon great affection towards him perswaded him to keepe himselfe aliue in regarde of his little children and his friends that did hang vpon him if he would not in regard of himselfe he thus answered Crito For my children God which gaue me them will take care for them for my friends departing hence from them I shall either finde others like vnto you or somewhat better than you neither shall I long want your company sith shortly you also are to goe thither whither I my selfe now goe Of Cercidas Aelianus writes that being fallen into a most daungerous sickenes Aelianus de varia hist lib. 13. One asked him whether he would die willingly yea or no vnto whome as Elianus saith he gaue this answere why not For after death I shall see the best learned men in all kinde of sciences of the Philosophers Pythagoras of the historiogragraphers Heratious of the Poets Homer of the Muses Olympus which through their monuments of learning haue gotten themselues an immortall name And thus now you haue what these great writers say of these of whom they haue written Q. By how much the sooner I haue it by so much your kindenes towards me is the greater But would you haue the consideration of those his friends to whome he is to goe take as great effect in him that is sicke and ready to departe this world as in these you haue named R. What other thing should I for these things are written for his instruction aswell as others and christians euery way should be as forward in christian conuersation as heathens such as these were euer any way Q. That is true but it is a question among christians whether they being once departed this life shall euer againe sâ—e and know after this life those whome they saw and knew and were acquainted with all in this life and therefore often they are lesse willing to die than in duty they should and in affection they would R. In so being they are the more vnwise for the matter you now speake of there needs not to be any matter of question Q. Is it a matter thinke you so manifest R. Yes verily Q. By what meanes appeares it so R. 1. By reason out of the Scriptures 2. by testimonie out of auncient writers Q. Manifest the one and the other of these and I will soone haue done R. So I will if you will Q. I aske it and therefore I will it R. I promised it and therefore I will performe it Gen. 2.23 Out of Genesis then the thing wee speake of doth thus appeare Adam before he sinned being in the state of innocency knew Euah