the Iudge vnto whom they haue appealled and which in stéede to be iudged of him they would iudge him Theophilus Stay a while Eusebius Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute Thinke not that wée are become Papistes sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God as he doth wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist to whom alone it apperteineth We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures But if we discerne put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical those that are Apocripha thou oughtest not to accuse vs therefore except thou doe by that same reason render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church chiefely Sainct Hierome and in like manner your decrées and Canons whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees Eusebius I confesse that amonge the Iewes it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church Wherefore I conclude that those that beny that they are not canonicall are not the sonnes of the Church but bastardes of the Sinagogue Hillarius Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of â—ccius Behold one shot of his Canons Theophilus If it be so Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals in that prolegne in whiche be hath recited them all in order doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here then the other And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas and principally of the second out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew But not the seconde the which hath bene onely written in Greeke The whiche thing as he saith may proue it selfe by the pâ—rase and manner of the speaking the which hée vsed To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye of the Machabees vnderstanding that by him it was written Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome that history hath bene written by Ioseph bâ—ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority theÌ„ the other bookes of Ioseph the which we do reade â— no receiue as histories very profitable But a greate deale wantoth that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie as vnto those the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt to be y body of y holy Scripture Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouerâ—es of Salomon The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees but shee receineth them net among the Canonical Eusebius Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall Theophilus Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest speaking of the number of the times which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon vntill the comming of Iesus Christe Did he not write that the account and number of them are not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in the other among which are the bookes of the Machabees Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures Eusebius Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle why dost thou not adde that which followeth afterwardes The whiche sayth hée the Iewes hold not for Canonical but the Church doth Theophilus But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore the which serueth to my purpose Eusebius Hee sayth that it is bicause of the vehement and merueilous passions of some Martirs whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe for the lawe of GOD before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments Theophilus He vnderstandeth by those Martirs the seuen brothers of the Machabees with their mother who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of god It is easie to vnderstand by those words that the Church hath not receiued those bookes in suche authoritie as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical Apostolical church nor to be sufficient for to allow confirme or for to builde any doctrine which ought to be holeÌ„ for an article of faith for to vanquish the hereticks But only in such stéede as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories legends of martirs not a heape of foolish fabulous legends made by a heape of dreaming and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks as are the liues of the fathers the golden legend and other like more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras Orson Valentine the erring kinghtes Mandeuill or the true narrations of Lutian and others like made for pleasure then among the Ecclesiasticall histories But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men as the bookes of Iosephus Eusebius Sozomenus Theodoritus Socrates and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories and the liues of Martyrs for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples But not that they are of such authoritie that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine And that it is euen so as I doe saye I will not proue it by anye other witnes then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee That is to saye Sainct Augustin who hath written in an other place after this manner saying The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees as the Law the Prophets and Psalmes to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes as vnto this witnesses saying All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche not without profit if one doe reade and marke it soberly Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time if it were not but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue that it is of the holy Scripture and that we doe deny it After that sorte haue bene allowed some bookes called the Canons oâ—
such as haue not knowen him in this world VVherevpon shal be entreated the place of Saint Peter touching the preaching of Iesus Christ vnto the deade to the spirits that were deteined in prison for the end conclusion of all those matters the funeralles of purgatory shall be celebrated and he shal be buried For that cause this dialogue is called the Requiescant in pace of purgatory For he is deade and buryed THE SIXT DIALOGVE WHICH is called the Requiescant in pace of Purgatorye THOMAS Although friend Eusebius thou hast resisted Theophilus and Hillarie as much as thou canst and that thou hast fought valyantlye yet neuerthelesse thou couldest not so vertuouslye defende thy selfe but that the forewarde the winges and the hornes of thy armye and almost all the whole hoast is discomfyted and ouercome there resteth no more nowe but the arrierewarde If it defende it selfe no valyentlyer and that it bée no better armed then the others thou shalt carry no good newes to the Pope of that combatte and thou shalt giue him no greate occasion to receiue thee among his Capitaines and to reward thée ritchly Eusebius I doe not fight for the Pope but for the trueth It is to me all one who d ee gaine or winne the battaile so that the victorie abideth with the trueth and that Iesus doe raigne in his Church Theophilus I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath giuen vnto thée and that thou art not like vnto a heape and company of ambicious and glorious men who what so euer euill cause that they haue will neuer confesse them selues ouercome and vanquished but estéeme their glory more dearer then the same of Iesus Christ Eusebius It is verye true that at the beginning I was much offended with your wordes But when I considered that which I haue hearde of you I knewe not well to which side to turne You haue alreadye very much ouercome and fayled me neuerthelesse I haue yet many places of the holye Scriptures which holde me in suspens and leaue me in a greate scruple and doubt in my conscience vntill such time as thou hast shewed me by liuely euident reasons that I must vnderstande them otherwise then they haue béene expounded vnto me or else you shall be constrayned to chaunge your matter and to denye and vnsay all that you haue saide euen vntill this present time Hillarius Propounde them all by order and Theophilus wil addres guyde thée to the true vnderstanding Eusebius For to kéepe the better order I wyll beginne by the olde testament and afterwards will follow the newe after the order by which the bookes of the same are disposed and set alledging out of euery one of them the pointes which may serue to my matters I will put forth vnto thée that which Thoby commaunded his sonne saying Set thy breade and wine vppon the buriall of the righteous But thou wilt aunswere vnto me that that booke is Apocripha or onely Ecclesiasticall and not Canonicall as thou hast already done of the same of the Machabees Theophilus Truely I may aunswere thée so But although it were Canonicall where too would it serue for thy matter Eusebius Very well following the interpretacion of Eccius which expoundeth it of the Almoses for to refresh the poore that they should pray vnto God for the saluation of the deade Theophilus He that woulde followe the exposicions of Eccius there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred for to make it serue to the popish tyranny In the booke of Thoby in that place there there is no mention made of praying for the dead And although those words preceded thervnto he ought rather to haue saide Set thy breade vppon the buriall of the sinner then vpon that of the righteous For the sinners shal haue more neede of such prayers then the righteous But he saith altogether contrarye For hée addeth eate and drinke not with the sinners and wicked The which is better expressed by the Greeke saying Set thy breade vpon the buriall of the righteous and giue it not vnto sinners Wherefore it is most likest to be true sith that before he hath spoken of Almoses that he recommendeth by those wordes chiefely the righteous and faithfull euen as saint Paul aboue all other recommendeth those of the houshold of faith Nowe there are many manners and wayes to bestowe ones breade and wyne vppon the burialles of the righteous The first is in burying them honestly as Thoby did without sparing that which was there vnto néedefull and requisite For the Hebrewes by the breade wyne and water doe vnderstande all the things necessarie vnto man and vnto mans life The other is when we doe helpe our bretheren succour so their necessities that they dye not for want of vittailes nor goe downe to the graue without being buried If we doe otherwise we kill them when we fâ—â—de them not and that they do dye through our default The thirde is when we comfort thorowe Almoses the children and friendes of the deade Then we shed foorth our breade and wine vpon their burialles behold the holy water that they desire And it is a great deale better to doe after that sort then to playe the glutton with the gluttons drunkerds and wicked But the manner of spech is somewhat obscure bicause that the booke notwithstanding that it was written in Greeke yet neuerthelesse it keepeth the phrases and manners of the Hebrew speach Hillarius He that will then followe the counsell of Thoby must no more banket and feast the Priestes sith that he forbiddeth to giue his breade and wine vnto sinners and the wicked For there is not a people vpon the earth of a more execrable life nor which do more abuse the goods which GOD hath giuen vnto man Amongst whom one may well accompt and number Eccius for one of the principallest Captaines of God Bacchus For he was very angry that day he was not dronken in Wherfore it is no meruaile if he woulde mainteine the spitt and the fryingpan But yet no ueil 〈◊〉 although he and all such as he is would presse and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any exposition confirmable and agreable to the worde of God it should haue had more colour for to allow the auncient custome which the Panyms had to cary breade vpon the burialls and to powre thereon wine euen as already hath béene spoken then for to proue the bankettes of the priestes and the prayers for the deade Neuerthelesse we are well assured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but haue had regard not to allow such supersticious Eusebius Let vs leaue of Eccius and the pristes and answere me vnto that which is written in the booke of the Psalmes We haue passed thorowe the fire and water and thou hast drawen vs out and set vs in ioye and comforte Howe vnderstandest thou that place
followe the example of Iesus Christ and his Prophetes and Apostles who haue alwayes taught those with whome they had to doe in a language that they coulde beste vnderstande For that cause was gyuen vnto the Apostles the gyfte of tongues for to preach vnto all people and Nations knowing that the language ought to serue to the matter and not the matter to the language Wherefore considering that some men doe write in Hebrewe some in Greeke some in Latin others in Almayne and in Flemish others in Italian and Spanish I haue also written in a language with which I am best acquainted and haue most familiaritie according to my byrth and natiuitie Although that the matters that I entreate off shoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue and shoulde be vnto me more aduauntage For oftentimes I haue the matter ready that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours where I néede not to trauaile to translate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impossible especially vnto mée to sette them out wyth such grace and to interprete them so natiuely as they sound in their naturall language Hebrewe Greeke or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin I am not much better in french Wherefore although I doe not speake the language of Attica nor well beautified lyke a Retricion but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude speache Or if I wander astraye in Fraunce and that I come agayne into the countrey I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth such faultes and especially in the rymes and French verses which sometyme I mingle in these Dialogues following the example of the good Authours which haue willingly kept this custome to translate into verse after their owne language that whiche they alledge of the Poets which haue written it in an other language The which I haue done sometime bycause that I put in the margentes those Authours by the which I helpe my selfe for to discouer and vnhide better the abuses and superstitions to the ende that some men shoulde not thincke that I speake of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce and wythout iust occasion If ther be in my verses but little rime it sufficeth me so that it haue some reason For I do not make profession of Poetry it sufficeth me to tourne them grosly or plainely Besides that that I am an euill Oratour yet I am a worse Poet. Yet neuerthelesse I am fully certified that so many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte both in Poetry and French prose shall haue none occasion to enuye mée nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verses to haue the crowne of Baye and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name Also I hope that those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to speake wyll consider to beare with my rude style as the Athenians who were the cummingest in all Greece both in doctrine and in language haue not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher Anacharsis notwithstandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation They must also consider whiche knowe the greatnesse of the countrey wherein I am I haue sometimes vsed expresly some woordes which shall not bée receyued of those which sludye in the finenesse of the French tongue but I doe the same for to condiscend to the rudenesse and capacitie of the most ignoraunt whiche better vnderstande those woordes taken from their language then others that are more fine and eloquent Furthermore although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye style and more elâ—quent then I can and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge Yet neuerthelesse I doe not thincke that those whiche knowe that Christian simplicitie and modestie is wyll neyther despyse my language nor my doctrine but that they wyll take it all in good parte consideringe that if Amos whiche was a shepeheard and many other Prophetes of base condition haue not vsed so high a style nor haue spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid or that great Oratour Esay of the royall linage and brought vp in the court they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to speake through Gods spirite and to profite very muche in hys Church whose style they haue vsed And althoughe that the Euangelisles and Apostles haue not written in such pompe of woordes nor haue not so much trauayled after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde by theyr â—ude stile then the others by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any comparison But if wée consider Gods woorkes wée shall knowe that the holye Ghost althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence whych is one of his gyftes yet neuerthelesse hée delighteth himselfe more in the simplicitie of language for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym I speake this bicause of some delicate moâ—thes and curious of language which regarde not but the stile and the manner phrase of speaking without considering the sentence and that that one speaketh as though men doe write for the tongue and for to learne onely for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes not rather for to instruct the spirite soule and the conscience They regarde but the flowers and care not for the fruite And which is worse one shall finde them of such corrupt iudgementes that they preferre the paynted flowers before those that growe naturally thinckeing to beautifie their language and to enrich the French tongue GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make and howe they mangle the Latine so that they doe speake neither Latine nor french But desiring to auoide and not to vse all that which they thincke to bée common to the ende they might bée estéemed the greater Oratours doe forge and inuent a newe language and doe despise the good French woordes for to steale awaye those from straunge tongues That curiositie and affection of language is the cause that many delite rather to reade bookes full of scoffinges fables lyes and of blasphemyes then those of diuinitie or of some good diuines and holy men And this vice is not onely in the French tongue but also in that Latine For ther are some which haue so great feare to defile their golden tongue and to embrew their goodly stile with the simplicitie basenesse of the Propheticall and Apostolicall language that they had rather to defile their soules vnderstandinges and spirites in foolishe curious bookes or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters
then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch Or if they desire some time to drincke of it that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus They doe but sucke in the water hastely as though they were afrayde to touch it and that there were in it Crocodiles They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion But I can not allowe but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours or to others a greate deale worse and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue and to whiche they ought to be preferred Shall we not iudge him a foole out of his wyt which will alwayes staye in his Grammer and in the principles and rules of the same and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes and of Philosophie and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde sith that the Grammer yea the Rethoricke whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it And the Logicke also are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had which coulde reade vnto vs but doctrinall of Alexander and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour insomuch that one shall neuer haue done but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne Those some vnto me not to differ much from them For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe no more then the Grammer of Alexander or as Grecismus and Roiolis and the Logicke of Tartaret and of other Sophisters except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende For otherwise whereto shall all their science and eloquence serue but to the Panims and people without God the which is more hurtfull and daungerous then profitable to the common wealth in hym which hath not the feare of God and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them which can come vnto such perfection by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero as that seditious Catiline who was very eloquent But when they doe surmount Demosthenes may not wee rightly â—ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him comparing him vnto a flute which hath but the beak of bil the which is vnprofitable after that the necke is cut off What is there also in these héere but the tongue The which oftentimes hurteth many and profiteth fewe Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God and Iesus Christ his Sauiour and which confesseth him in his rude language and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation to be preferred before all these greate Poets Orators and Philosophers who are altogether ignoraunt and which doe serue but the flesh the world and Sathan Prince of the same Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him and yet worse For the Oxe knoweth his Lord and an Asse his Masters stall as sayth the Prophet the which those here which will bée counted for true Israelits Gods people and Christians wil not acknowledge nor serue hym dooing vnto him so much honour as the Oxe the Asse doe vnto their Masters How dare they esteeme themselues wyse beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God the which onely is the true knowledge for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse in comparison of which all other which are called sciences are but mennes opinions errours and lyinges excepte they haue this for a guyde It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them and meate for to make them haue an appetite sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe and the heauenly Manna to the which they preferre the garlicke onyons the flesh and fishes of Aegypt For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire shall but encrease their griefe the greater And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it they will not tast of it Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I and which can better helpe their disease There are others which differ but a little from these héere and which care not so muche of the language but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first that is that they delite not in reading any good matter graue and whiche toucheth Gods woorde and the health of their soules but vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience And therefore although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language touching the matters of our Religion yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes and can take no taste of them bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate and that they are to precious for them For the â—doriseraunt and sweete flowers smell not so swéete in the hogges noses as the myre and durte For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade â—ookes of bawdry and whoredome For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth and doe speake of earthlye matters and cannot comprehende the celestiall language bycause it is not naturall vnto them Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worlâ—e which doe serue but for seoffing and testing and which haue no other care and applye their studie but to please men and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges then salutary and to delyte the fleshe and the eares more then to edifie the conscience Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner then those whiche haue written before mée For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them not onely bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys kingedomes and Segmories to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD
this custome that in the prayers of the Priestes which they doe make vnto God at his aulter the recommendation of the soules hath also his place And did not Monica the Mother of Sainct Augustine require that they should make remembraunce of hir in the sacrament of the aulter For that cause hath Sainct Gregory written that the soules of the dead are deliuered in scure manners and sorts either by the oblations of the Priestes or by the prayers of the Sainctes or by the aimes of their friendes or by the fastinges of their parents I doe not thincke that these two learned men would haue written suche thinges wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures And it is not lyke that the Church hath kept that custome so longe time but that shée was well assured that it came from the Apostles and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene as witnesseth Isidore for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian who were next vnto the Apostles they made prayers sacrifyces and oblations for the dead For Sainct Denis maketh expresse mention of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie and that he woulde place him in lyght and in the region and countrey of the liuinge and in the bosome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye â—â—oblation for the dead I haue declared vnto thée many witnesses and of great authoritie I haue alledged vnto thee the custome of the auncient Church which is a witnesse which is worth a thousande I haue alledged vnto thée the practise of the auncient Doctors They doe sufficiently declare both they haue vsed and chiefely Sainct Augustine who â—â—â—â—â—festly witnesseth that the same was ordeyned of the authors which the vniuersall Church kéepeth that is no say that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Christ when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place in the sinne very socrifice that one ought to maye and make remembraunce that one doe also offer that sacrifice for them Wherefore he sayth that we must not omit the supplication the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo for the spirites and soules of all the dead which are departed in the Christian society and company Theophilus I thinke that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set foorth the principall weapons that thou canst finde for to defende thy quarrell and that if I haue once satisfied those obiections I beleeue that the matter shall bée ended as soone as hée toucheth the witnesse and authoritie of the auncient fathers As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hieratchies I haue already ready tolde thée what it was For who knoweth not that that booke of the celestiall Hierarchia is more worthy to be some dreamer then of Sainct Denis the Disciple of Sainct Paul For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Master then the dreames of his owne head and hée woulde not haue spoken of such matters otherwise then hée in his Epistles If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis whatsoeuer it bée thou shalt there finde that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that bée aliue and not for the dead And doth confirme that which wée haue already spoken off of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayse the dead Wherefore it shoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before if thou wouldest vnderstande that which one telleth thée But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée I haue already sufficiently declared vnto thee from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firste and what hath bene the custome of the auncient fathers the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popish Church Wherefore that whiche thouhast alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian that holy Martyr who hath read and well vnderderstanded Tertulian if euer man dyd vnderstand him For hee had him in such reputation that hee dyd call him no otherwyse but the Master thorowe his great excellentnesse Insomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes he sayde alwayes bringe mée the master And the better to declare the pleasure that hée dyd take in readinge him and the fruite that one myght therein learne receiue they saye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed vnder vys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande when hee woulde occupye and looke in it as the auncient historyes doe also wytnesse that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere For hée giueth vs sufficiently to vnderstande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead in that auncient Churche were none other thinges then the prayses and giuinge of thankes which the faythfull did render vnto God for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren whome hée hath called from this world with the other thinges whiche haue bene already spoken off which are yet done at this daye in some places in Almaigne after the auncienâ— manner But they doe call commonly the oblation and sacryfice the diuine seruice and that which they dyd in theire assembles in which they did obserue chiefly foure things The first was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of god After the prayers Afterwards the supper and last of all the gatherings and almos for the poore And they did call that oblation and sacrifice not that they dyd vnderstand and meane to offer and sacrifice Iesus Christe as the Priests say that they doe in their Masse But bicause that the Bishop and Pastor of the church and al the Christian people did come to offer present themselues vnto god did offer vnto hym their orisons giuing of thanks which are y true sacrifice of praise And their almes in like manner for to coÌ„fort y poore people of Iesus Christ They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable vnto god And they did make coÌ„memoration of the death passion of Iesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper Wherfore we must not thinke y they did make prayers offerings for the dead to the ende they should be deliuered frdiâ— the paines of Purgatory as hath bene done in our time But the praiers were the prayses and thanks that they rendered vnto God and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto those that bée liuinge The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring for to succour helpe the poore which were liuing And therefore long time amonge the auncientes that diuine soâ—â—ke that they
We may take it for a certeyne rule that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language to wit Hebrew or in the language of the Chaldees sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon Furthermore it is easye to knowe that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem and the age of Esdras Nehemias Aggeus Zachary Malachy sithence which wée do not read that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing nor other bookes of a certeyne and autenticke authour Wherefore by good ryght this héere is accompted for Apocrypha And although there were no other reason for to diminishe his authoritye but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke that ought to suffice thée Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by experience If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD that all that whiche hée hath written procéeded from him as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile of the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God as those who without excusinge themselues haue sayd The Lorde hath spoken it And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne that although an Angell came downe from heauen for to bringe anye other vnto you he ought not to bée receiued but accursed Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture form the others and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall that seconde booke of the Machabees but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected and of which it might serue the Church for declaration of the Scriptures bicause of the histories conteyned in the same whiche doe giue a certeine openinge for the intelligence of the antiquitie as the histories of Ioseph doe Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well it shall be easle to iudge that the first and the second are not all of one authour not onely by the diuersitie of the stile 〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second are reiterated some bistories and many things which already haue bene intreales â—â— in the first and a great deale better then they are in this If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it But forasmuch as it is alone his witnesse is not sufficient as it shoulde bée in the one of the others For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as by a thousand where a thousand witnesses of men without the same of God ought not to bolde any place in the religion But sithence that the superstition of the suffrages prayers for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche then those that contâ—yned more surer doctrine And thu oughtest also to vnderstand that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene y Canonical Apocrypha Ecclesiasticall bookes as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian other that it was Ruffin But whosoeuer if were of them both they are both of them very auncient and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte Yée must know saith he that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall which are not called of the auncients of our predeâ—â—â—â—ors Canonicall but Câ—â—lessasticall as are the wisdome of Salomon and the other wysedome which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach the which booke is among the Latins by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture The booke of Toby is of the same order and of Iudith and the bookes of the Machabees the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth for to conâ—â—rme the authoritie of the fayth by them The other Scriptures they haue called Apocrypha the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche Thou 〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures and vnto the Ecclessastical more then vnto the Apocryphâ— but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical which they haue many times called apocrypha of equall and such authoritie as the diuine scriptures nor they haue called them Eccleslasticall for that cause but bicause that they were in such reputation that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche the wâ—â—â—â— was not permitted in the auncient Churche or bicause that theyr antiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a â—yttle more authoritie then vnto the other Thomas By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue Eusebius If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at they re pleasure it is méere folly to disputs with them For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha Theophilus If thou wilt not be confenâ—ed with the reasons by me alledged go and plead against Sainct Hierome and your decrees If the auncients had not vsed iudgemeÌ„t and wisdome how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets Apostles and of their Disciples The which they haue reâ—â—csed them following that same rule which I haue giuen vnto thée as it appeareth by your decrees which are a great rolle of them But I wil yet do more to the ende I leaue theâ— not an occasion to be miscontented w me I am content by way of disputation to put the case that y booke should be autentick of a diuine authoritie And although it were so it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purgaâ—ory that we must offer for the dead to such intent and in such sort as you do make it And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly I demaund of thée for to begin first ouâ— matter in what time was that made which the history conteineth was it before the coÌ„ming of our Lord Iesus Christ or afterwards Eusebius Before Theophilus Tell me moreouer was the Purgatorye in that time such as thou beléeuest it is
rest except that sometimes those lyttle varlets and lockesmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great loksmith and great treasurer he knowing nothing thereoff and that he be not therewithall content although that vnder his name and title they streth foorth their power as séemeth good vnto them and doe forge keyes bulles and pardons as many as they lyst and alwaies at the costs of the poore people Now the great lockesmith hath no lymit but that he hath alwaies reasonable cause for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde so that money doe come or otherwise he will suffer the poore soules to be rosted and tormented in Purgatory as long as the world shall continue for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons I haue a certeine doubt the which I would that I were resolued of it by thée Eusebius For sith that the one hath power to giue two or thrée thousand an other two or thrée hundreth an other an hundreth fiftie fortie thirtie or twentie either more or lesse I would gladly know of thée what horologes clocks what quadrans they haue in purgary for to measure those dayes there For sith that there is no sun moone nor stars what daies what yeres can they haue For the time is taken of the morning of the heauen of the course of the sunne But those which are in purgatory haue nothing of al this Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres what months dayes houres they can haue whether they be very long or short As far as I can imagine by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum the daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg For he saith that an Angell caryed thether a soule of a man to whome hée promised that it shoulde tary there but an houre And as soone as that Angell did come agayne to see that soule it did begin to crye out vpon him and to call him lyer deceiuer and traytor Thomas To what purpose Hillarius It sayd vnto him Thou hast promised me that I should be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres But the Angel aunswered vnto him There wanteth a great many my friende For thou hast not yet taryed a quarter of an houre Wherefore I doe conclude that it must needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long sith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thousande yeares of ours or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte and that the time continueth long to the poore soules Eusebius I will tell thée as touching the pardons it hath bene long time sithence that many people doe know that there is in them great abuses Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them Theophilus I doe also iudge it lost time to speake of such abuse if I did not sée that sithence the time of Gregory so many people to haue bene abused that so many great Doctors which are most estéemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolemen haue written of it and haue confirmed it so assuredly Hillarius I know that thou doest beginne already Eusebius to agree with vs I beléeue that thou art of this opinion that the Pope ought to let the dead rest without reigning ouer them sith that they haue more power ouer the Pope then the Pope ouer them as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath raysed to lyfe any dead person and that he came to aunswere before him of all those whom he hath cyted condempned absolued or excommunicated But that booke doth witnesse manifestly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poytiers hath caused to be cyted after his death by a Cedule Pope Clement the firt for to appeare before the eternall Iudge bicause that he had vniustly deposed him from his office Thomas And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion Hillarius If the booke lye not that was no iest For at the verye same daye which was prescribed vnto him the Pope dyed of a sodeyne death and departed sodeinely for to goe and aunswere there What sayest thou by this Eusebius If this history be false it is a great dishonor for the Cardeliers who do make great accompt of that booke and doe holde it to be very pretious among them as a relicke and reuelation And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Fraunces and of the foure Mendicants I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding and the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces the order of saint Fraunces is buylded and staied vppon the Pope wherefore when the Pope shall fall which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding also shall fall the buylding the order and the rule of the Mendicants Now we cannot deny but that example doth ruinate ouerthrow the Pope all his power I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false For I beléeue that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God saint Fraunces conformable agréeing to Iesus Christ as that booke ful of blasphemies enforceth it selfe to proue it But I consider onely that sith that the Cordeliers haue written such an history do maynteine it by their bookes that they doe abate asmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order For how can this witnesse agrée with this proposition The Pope cannot erre And with the exposition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of those words Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation and the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it If the Pope be that rocke or stone and that stone is fallen it must néedes be that all the Popish church doe fall with it and the orders of the foure Mendicants which are his foure Euangelysts and his principall pillers And so by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made doe vnmake the Pope which hath made them and the creature vnmaketh his creator and the creator his creatures Theophilus It chaunced to them as to the Madianits which destroyed themselues the one the other with their owne weapons when they heard the sound of the trompets and pitchers of the army of Gedeon and saw the lyght of his torches So in lyke manner sith that Iesus Christ our true Gedeon hath put the trompets of his gospell into the handes of his lyttle army the which by vertue of his holy spirite he maketh to sounde euen vnto the endes of the
PETRVS VIRETVS THE Christian disputations BY MASTER PETER VIRET Deuided into three partes Dialogue wise Set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Ashe Math. vij d. 21. Not euery one that saith vnto me Lorde Lorde shall enter into the kingdome of Heauen but he that doth my fathers will which is in heauen MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East 1579. To the most Reuerent Father in God EDMVND by the permission of God Archbishop of Caunterbury Primate and Metrapolitan of England Iohn Brooke wisheth in this life prosperitie and eternall felicitie in Christ our Sauiour REading for mine owne priuate exercise and studies the worthie worke of Master Peter Viret entituled The Christian disputations right Reuerent Father the sweete entrie into the same with such pleasant allurementes of comfortable matter so drewe and tolled me forwade as vnnethes I coulde cease vntill I had cleane discoursed and gone thorowe the whole worke Which hauing once accomplished and due consideration therevppon had according to my slender capacitie I thought I coulde not bestowe my time in any thing more worthy gratefull acceptaunce then in publyshing and setting foorth the same that others might bee made pertakers of my comfortable delights and delightfull comforts takeÌ„ in reading hereoff Not meaning like a chorle alone to deuoure such a rich banket furnished with so greate a number of Iunkets and delicate dishes but to inuite thervnto according to the intent of mine Author a company worthy such a feast which being first prepared and dressed very cunningly after the French fashion I haue for the great good will and zeale â—owe vnto my natiue Countrie and for their better taste translated and set foorth the same after the English manner wherein my small vnlearned skill desirous of sure supportacion and good defence craueth your grace as chiefe to giue me credite and countenaunce against the byting sting of Zoilous persons hereticall Papists whose stomacks may in no wise digest or abide the good wholesome dyet in this feast prepared whose vnsauorie tastes as I seeke not to content so I feare not to offende Trusting your grace will accept this my bolde enterprise as proceeding of heartie good will towards you and earnest loue borne vnto my countrie preferring my zealous intent and the Godlinesse of the matter vnto the vnworthinesse and slender skill shewed in the translation As I shall dayly pray vnto Almightie God to gouerne and direct your grace in all your affaires by his holy spirite remayning euer Your graces bounden during life Iohn Brooke Iohn Caluyn vnto the Readers THE loue of God our Father and the grace of our Lorde Iesus Christ be giuen to you and multiplyed from day to day thorowe the communion of the holy Ghost There is an auncient Poet which saith that he which delyteth and profiteth altogether in his writings hath gained the price and fauour towardes all men The same is spoken bicause of the diuersitie of natures It is very true that the onely doctrine wherein we knowe it to be good and profitable ought to suffice vs for to incitate and prouoke vs to reade willingly a booke to giue and bestowe thereon all our studie to loue and set by it and finally to take pleasure in it But there are a great many and well neere the most parte which will be a greate deale better pleased that one should teach theÌ„ after a gentle pleasant fashion then otherwise In such sort that as in recreating themselues they may profite receiue instruction liuen then as those which occupie themselues to make bookes of pastime vaine and friuolous which cause the world to reade them are to bee vituperated and despised although they haue no corruption in them So on the other side those which haue the grace so to teach that they doe both delight and profite the Readers thorowe their pleasant stile are double to be praysed And in very deede that is a vertue a gift which is not in al men Yea often times the wisest cannot atteine vnto it And which is more do make themselues to be laughed at in desning that which is not giuen vnto them For a man which desireth to vse mery conceits and iests ought to beware of two vices The one is that he do nothing of compulsion or laugh ouer much as there are a great many which haue cold laughters the which do seeme as though they were pulled out of their throat by force The other is not to vse baudy silthy talk the which is called in Latine scurrilitas in our language pleasant iestes But to keepe the meane that is to know how to speak effectually and with a good grace so for to recreate that there be nothing spoken foolishly at all aduentures or vncomely which is no common vertue I doe speake this by reason of these present Dialogues out of which a man may so gather good instruction and yet notwithstanding he shall haue occasion to laugh For the matter of it selfe is very pleasant And is set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Our brother and companion in the worke of the Lord Iesus Peter Viret who is the Author hath by nature the vertue which I saide to be requisite in that man which will medle himselfe therein It is vertue true that as in all other workes he giueth himselfe vnto a better studie and of greater waight So in these Dialogues his principall intent is not to delight the eares And in verie deede that shoulde be but a small labour and a paine euill be stowed of a man of such witte and knowledge Furthermore besides the giftes that he hath of God he is called vnto a more higher calling But forasmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreate off sheweth that he teacheth by order of pastime and merrie iestes he pretendeth notwithstanding the right doctrine as the true marke to shoote at mingling with the same some merrie conceites as a companion therewith all Yea in such sort that this booke is a suffient witnes that be hath a singuler dextentie to doe it yea euen as much as he will himselfe that is to say as much as is needefull or conuenient I doe knowe that it is a daungerous thing and that no man ought at the first sight to allowe a booke But I feare not to haue any rebuke of good men of such as are of sounde Iudgement to haue commended the reading of that booke as a booke in which the time shal be wel bestowed I neede not to bring witnes nor to speake among those which know the man This onely knowledge will suffice for to asâ—ure them that they cannot sayâ—e to stay themselues vpon it But bicause that it may
that I haue forgotten the estate in which I haue bene and that I am vnthanckefull towardes Gods liberalitie and goodnesse who immediatlye from my youth béeing yet at the schooles hath drawen me from that labarinth of errour before that I was to much plunged in that Babilonical Antechrist and receyued the marke of the beast Neuerthelesse notwithstanding that it hath pleased God that that carecter and marke was not printed in my forehead to the which yet neuerthelesse A. prepared my selfe thincking that it was the right waye of saluation if the Lorde had not had pittie and compassion on mée who called mee vnto a better vocation yet I cannot therefore denie but that I haue bene sufficiently plunged and very déepe in that whore of Babilon aswell as others Although I haue not bene none of the gouernours and chiefest Eurgesses and Citizens of the same yet I haue bene of the meaner sort prepared for to bring foorth the fruites of confusion as the others dyd and so much the more that by Nature I was more giuen vnto religion the which yet neuerthelesse I knewe not following in steede thereoff all superstition Wherefore sithens that the Lord hath taken mée out I can not yet forget those that are detayned and kept therein And in remembring and considering the trayne of the newe Babilon it maketh me so remember a lawe and custome that the auncient Babilonians had the which is not altogether to be despised nor vnworthy to be remembred Before that Phisicke was yet brought into any perfect Aite and that there was not cunninge Phisitions for to practise it they dyd set downe a lawe by which they ordeyned that those which did begin to be sicke and diseased ought to go vnto those which sometime haue bene sicke with the same disease for to haue their aduice counsaile and for to learne by them the remedy which they vsed if they had proued any good and which were wel to be found And to the ende that that law should be the better kept they vsed to bring those that were sicke and diseased vnto the stréets and open places and those which sometime had bene sicke were bounde by the lawe to visite them and to teach vnto euery one of them the remedy by the which they were healed If then the Babilonians were so carefull of the sicke and diseased let vs thincke what reproche we shall haue of God if after that hée hath made vs féele his grace and hath giuen vnto vs the remedy not onely against all the diseases both of body and soule but also against the corporall and spirituall deathe we haue no pittie and compassion on our bretheren which are yet in the bedde of deathe and if we doe not showe vnto them the remedye that we haue learned of GOD and that we doe not bringe them vnto the highe and souereigne Phisition IESUS CHRIST His law and commaundement ought more to vrge vs then that of the Babilonians If he willed and commaunded that he that shall finde the Ore or the Asse of his neighbour going astray yea of his enemy to bring them to him againe or if he be fallen into a dyke or sinke vnder his burthen to helpe him out and vp againe do we thinke that he hath not yet more care of man then of a beast of the soule more then of the body Doth he not giue vs sufficieÌ„tly to vnderstand by that commaundement in what recommendacion we ought to haue our neighbours and what care we ought to take of their soules and health sith that he bindeth vs by his commaundement to take the care and charge of his Asse I then considering the great darkenesse abuses and errours which haue occupyed and filled all the Christianitie séeing so many scrupulous doubtfull and troubled consciences and so many diseases of which euery stréete place and all the worlde is full would not despise them without teaching them some remedy for to comfort them at the least a lyttle if I cannot doe much chiefly for that I haue bene required of many good men which doe feare God. It is very true that one shall finde men inough which will promise remedyes for such diseases but he shall not finde many which haue well proued and tryed that which they teach vnto others For many men sometime wyll meddle or take vppon them to heale others which haue more néede of a medicine then those vnto whome they would giue it and there are more Phisicions then diseases And although I will not glorye nor boaste my selfe to be very able and cunning in that matter yet neuerthelesse I will not hyde that lyttle talent which the LORDE hath giuen vnto mée I am not ignorant but that the Lord hath raysed vp in these our dayes learned men which haue already very well declared and opened those obscure and darke places of which so many poore consciences are troubled after whome I am not worthy to carry their bookes but doe estéeme it a greate benefite of GOD to haue bene their disciple and scholler and by their meanes to haue vnderstanded GODS truth although that many bookes haue bene alreadye made and set foorth in our countrey by diuers learned for to discouer the abuses and for to put agayne the woorde of GOD in his honour according as our Sauiour IESUS CHRIST instituted it Neuerthelesse I haue yet thought that my lyttle labour shall not be altogether vayne and vnprofitable towards a great many of my bretheren and countrimen especially towards some for many causes First bicause that the most parte of those which haue written of diuinitie haue heterto written in the Latine tougue the whiche is not to be vnderstood of all men and especially of the poore ignoraunt people which haue more néede of playne doctrâ—e and consolation Wherefore it is good that such matters which doe touch and conserne our health and saluation be manifested and sette foorth in all languages to the ende that those which do not vnderstande the one may be instructed by the other For it is all one what language one speaketh vnto vs so that we vnderstand him and that we may be well instructed in the will of God and in all things necessary vnto our saluation For God regardeth not the languages but onely the thing to which all languages ought to serue Then euen as those who doe wryte in a language which is most common to euery Nation and by which they may instruct and teach not onely those of their countrey but also of straunge countreys are worthy of great prayse So I doe iudge them worthy to be blamed and not worthy to be accounted for christian men to occupy themselues so much to teach the most wisest and best learned and those which are so farre seperated from vs and that the poore ignoraunt and those of the house should hée despised and should féele nor receiue any fruite One might rightly rebuke and checke vs Phisition heale thy selfe And that we doe not
suffering yet neuerthelesse the others which doe induce but to dishonour and blasphemye But also bicause that although that it bée permitted vnto many to reade them yet neuerthelesse they doe make none account of them bycause that eyther they séeme vnto them very obscure and so wayghtye that they cannot well vnderstande them or the tyme to longe and take no pleasure to reade bookes whiche haue not some merrye conceytes and delites for to make them pastyme For they are yet to carnall and finde no pastime in those bookes whiche speake but of GOD and of the health of the Soule if there bée nothing for the fleshe the which they woulde onely keepe There is no doubte but that malady or dysease is very perillous and that suche vicious and corrupt Natures doe very muche displease GOD sith that they haue so lyttle reuerence of him and hys woorde and that they preferre the poyson before the good meate Neuerthelesse bycause that amongest suche one maye yet finde some whiche are not altogeather peruerse and malicyous but that they haue yet some seede of the feare of the LORDE in them mée thinckes that wee muste not altogeather dyspayre and abanoon them as sicke folke that are incurable but that we must yet proue to winne them if it bee possible and to transfigure and chaunge them into al formes and shapes for to induce them to reade the holy Scriptures and to giue vnto them some tast For if we can conuert into good vses the meanes by the which the Diuell gyueth himselfe to drawe away man from the word of God and to robbe him altogether and holde him in the vanities of this worlde and may vse them as a baite on a hooke for to draw them from such vanities and to incitate and prouoke them to the studye of the truth me thincketh that wée doe nothing vnworthy of the office of a Christian man For euen as the holy Apostle hath bene made all vnto all men and doth applye and giue himselfe vnto euery one in all that which was possible for him without béeing against the will of God making himselfe a Iew vnto the Iewes and a Gentile vnto the Gentiles So me thinketh y by good right I may doe the lyke so that I do not altogether forget the Christian modestie and the honour and reuerence that the Christian oweth vnto the woorde of god For if the bawdes of Sathan endeuour themselues through faire and goodly delites and merry conceites to destroy the poore and silly soults the espowses of Iesus and to drawe them away from him for to make them serue him and to forsake their master shall it not be lawfull for vs to vse an other practise and cunning for to let theirs for to discouer and vnhide their filthinesse for to make them appeare to be abhomination to all the world and to retire and drawe backe the soules from his stewes for to ioyne them agayne with Iesus Christ their Sauiour If a paysoner doe couer and hide his poison with some delicate meate for to poison and murther men shall it not be by more iust reason peruntted to a Phisiâ—ion to mingle suger and hony amonge the wormewoode and the bitter Aleos for to sweeten a little the bitternesse of these drinckes Which notwithstanding that they are bitter in the mouth are yet neuerthelesse healthfull to the boote For if such holy deceits are worthy of praise to the Phisitions of the body wherefore shal it be despised to the Phisitions of the soules I would to GOD that he had giuen vnto vs the grace to deceiue so all the worlde for his profite and health For the diseased is happie which is deceiued by the Phisition to his health and healing which is the ende to the which both the one and the other doe pretende both the Phisition and the diseased I know very well that there bée already many bookes written which doe muche discouer abuses and which doe sufficiently mocke the vaine ceremonies idolatries and superstitions which are amonge the Christians but that sufficeth not except one doe teach what is the veritie and what is a firme and sound doctrine The which many haue already done but bicause they séeme and appeare too seuere and graue vnto those with whom wée haue chiefly to doe they reade them not and doe profit nothing There are others which haue followed a manner to write altogether contrary vnto those For euen as those haue regard to none other thing but to entreate of the woorde of God with all grauitie modestie and reuerence adressinge their writinges vnto people of good iudgementes and of temperate sences and full of the feare of GOD These héere vnto the contrary haue not taken their sight but to the white and marke of mans vanitie and curiositie and haue purposed to absteme themselues from all waightie honest and holy matters and to write onely of follyes merry conceites iestes playes and pastimes as of fooles morishdauncers scoffers and iesters And if they woulde holde themselues within those limits they were the more tollerable But many are not content to playe the fooles amongest men although that that office is scant méete vnto an honest man doe yet worse For they giue themselues but to scurrilitie and doe thincke that they cannot sufficiently inough delite men except their deuice bée altogether full of ruffenly talke and bawdry of vilanies and blasphemies not onely intollorable to the Christians but which shoulde bée iudged woorthy of grieuous punishmentes amongest the Iewes Turkes Panims and Infidels For if the Gentiles and Panims haue not taken and accompted for honest men and worthy to bée aduaunced into anye honourable office in a common wealth the Morishdauncers Maskers Iuglers Players Mummers and Iesters what honour is that vnto Princes and vnto Christian people to take delyte not onelye in such men with their bookes but in others a great deale more detestable and more ruder in all filthy and vyle woordes as the ruffians of the stewes and denyers of god Doe wée thincke that Iesus Christ hath sayde wythout a cause that for euery idle woorde that men shall speake they must render accompt at the day of iudgement Sith that the trueth which lyeth not telleth vs the same so cléerely and doth meanace and threaten that wee muste render an accompt for euery idle word that is to say which is vaine and vnprofitable whiche serueth nothing at all to the glorie of GOD nor to any edifyinge of our neighbour Doe wée thincke that our ribalde and bawdye talke backebitings euill speakings vnaduised slaunderous and infamous woordes which doe serue to none other ende but to peruerte the vnderstandings of men to adde or heap euil vpon euil to cast oyle into the fire and to bring towe the better to inflame mans conscience vnto all wickednesse and abhomination and vnto the which it is alreadie too muche inclined Doe wée thincke that suche languages shall not come to an accompte and that
they shall not bée a reproche vnto vs and brought before our eyes at the iudgement of GOD Were it not better for vs to followe the admonition which the holy Apostle taught vs saying Let your speach bée alwayes well sauoured and powdered with salte that yée maye knewe howe to aunswere euery man Let no filthy communication proceede out of your mouthes but that which is good to edifie wythall when néede is that it maye haue fauour with the hearers And grieue not the holy spirite of GOD by whome yée are sealed vnto the daye of redemption Let not fornication and all vncleanenesse or couetousnesse bée once named amonge you as it becomneth Sainctes neyther filthinesse neither foolishe talkinge neither iestinge which are not comely but rather giuinge of thanckes Beholde the lesson whiche the Doctour of the Gentiles giueth vnto the Christians for to learne them howe they ought to speake the which many haue very euill studied and kept For by their woordes and writinges they profite to none other ende but to infect and poyson the soules and to hinder a great many of good spirites to read better bookes and more profitable for their health and saluation For man cannot bée idle and excepte that hée dyd finde foolishe and wicked bookes for to applye therein his studye hée should bée constrayned to séeke better and to occupie therein altogether his minde wythout any detraction vnto vnprofitable thinges I knowe very well that one maye vppon this replye that such men in playinge and iestinge doe discouer the abuses of the worlde But it is better not to remoue and discouer them then to discouer and blowe them abroade after such a sorte For by that manner of dooing they may rather make of a superstitious and an hipocrite a man wythout GOD and wythout Religion then a good religyous and holye man. For notwythstandinge that they doe shewe foorth the follye of men and that which ought not to bee yet neuerthelesse they shewe not that which ought to bée and what is the true wisdome and the remedy for to redresse such diseases It is very easie to mock and scoffe at lyings and to shew that which is not but it sufficeth not ercept one doe shewe the trueth and what it is It sufficeth not to knowe Antechriste excepte wée knowe Iesus Christ That is to teach after the manner as Cicero desputed of the Nature of the Gods the which is more proper for to shewe that which is not God then who is god Such manner of dooing bringeth no resolution to the conscience but leaueth it alwayes in doubte and errour And although those shall doe no worse yet that shal be some thing and they shall not altogether lose their time for that they haue incitated and pricked men forwarde and put a desire in them to inquire of the truth for to knowe it For that is no little profit nor no little aduauntage that they haue already brought it to that pointe But these héere of whom I doe speake doe not follow the stile I say not of some good diuine nor onely of some good Panim Philosopher but doe séeme that they are altogether giuen to the immitation of Lusian a man without God and without Religion a mocker and despiser of God and men If it bée a matter to pastime to laugh play and iest at the superstitions and idolatries of to deuoute men caphardes and hipocrites and of all the estates of the world we néede not search for none other Authour and wée haue no néede of these new Lusianistes which are but as his little Disciples for to carrie his booke after him For if wée must make comparison of the language they approch nothinge néere to his eloquence If wée must compare the spirite and the knowledge there is as much difference as is betwéene the apprentice and the Maister Wherefore if the writinges of Lusian and the matters that be entreated off were very profitable and necessary vnto those whiche could not reade them in the Greeke tongue or béeinge translated into the Latine tongue I woulde counsaile rather his Disciples to trauayle and employ their eloquence to translate them in the French tongue then to forge and inuent for vs newe Lusians which doe but steale from him his inuentions and arguments for to attribute them vnto themselues as if they had bene the first Authours and inuâ—utours For howe wicked so euer hée hath bene and enemie to GOD and all Religion yet wée cannot deme but that he was a wise man a great Oratoure and a Philosopher and that he hath written many good thinges a greate deale better then those do here of which the faithful man may wel profit so that he read them after an other spirit intention then he hath written them that he do know to try the gold from the midst of the drosse to seperate the poyson from the good meate but those whom I rebuke doe teach nothing which can serue to the honour and glory of God nor vnto good manners nor to the edification of the congregation nor to ciuilitie nor to the knowledge of naturall humaine nor diuine thinges but to playe the foole and to iest with all the worlde and to moeke and despise aswell the true Christian religion as the superstitions and abhominations of Antechrist For if they would speake one honest woorde it must be accompanied with fiftie vnhonest woordes If they doe set foorth the truth it must bée that it be alwaies enuironed with a thousand infamies and slaunders as of Damoisels and body kéepers for to hide defend countergarde that it be not taken vncouered Howe much can that manner of writing speaking profite For the prayer of the truth is simple would not haue such couertures and cloaks but would walke open and vncouered â–ª And if wée haue compassion of the ciuyle and imperiall lawes bycause that they béeinge goodly in themselues are dishonored by the hemme of those gloses filthes of Bartolus and barbarous writers What may we say of the truth so noble a daughter of the eternall king accompanied with Damoisels so stincking vile and dissormed with so many filthinesse which doe marre and take from hir hir beautie And to replie that it is not sure and wythout daunger to speake truth in any other manner I doe aunswere to the same that hée were â—etter to holde his peace altogether then to preach it after such sort and that it shoulde bee better not to giue meate vnto a man then to giue him poyson for to kill him Wherefore all thinges compted and reckenned I knowe not howe one can conclude any other thing of such doctryne but that the Authours thereoff doe gyue occasion vnto those which haue any feare God to account them for Lucianistes And vnto those which haue nothing or a very little to pull them away altogether and to make them recule goe backe from the truth more then they were As dayly
thoughte that manner of doing to be meruaylous straunge and would not beléeue it that ther wer people vpon the earth so inhumaine who had not great horrour and feare to eate the flesh of men But when I consider way the doings of our Priestes I finde the Scythians to be very humaine in comparison of them For they are not conteÌ„t to eate the dead onely but they eate both the quicke the dead not béeing content with y do also eate with them their wyues children parents friends with all their cheuances substance yet they cannot be suffised satisfied They make of their bodyes y sepulchers of the poore people whom they do englut and deuoure for to bury them more preciously in their bowels But you must not be abashed if they make of their bodies the sepulchers of the poore people as the Scythians did of their parents friends sith that they say that they are made dayly the sepulcher of Iesus Christ bicause they doe eate him dayly and bury him in their bodyes and entrayles The poore people haue then no iust occasion to complayne of their crueltie For they doe vnto them no worse then vnto their God if their doctrine be true but doe bury them as preciously honestly And hée that will not beléeue me let him read their booke which is intituled Stella Clericorum and he shall sée whether I lye or no but he shall there finde rather worse For it is there written sith that the Prieste is the sepulcher of Iesus Christe that if he doe presume to take the body of Iesus with his polluted mouth he doth worse then if he threwe it in the durte or mire But which is more he casteth it into a priuie Iudge therefore Eusebius whether that good God whom they haue forged be honestly lodged and whether he haue not a tombe and sepulcher very precious and according to his dignitie Eusebius If there are some wicked Priests who did vnreuerently handle Iesus Christ and who did dishonour their office must ye therfore despise the estate which is so worthy and excellent and blaspheame Iesus Christ in such sorte Hillarius When did you euer heare vs blaspheme Iesus Christ speake vnreuerently of god do you thinke ther is no differeÌ„ce betwene Iesus christ the true sauiour of y world As for me I finde as much difference as is betwen y true God of Israel the gods of the Babilonians and other Idolaters Wherfore if you will accuse me of blasphemy when I will not receiue those newe gods and that I speake in such sort you shall be also compelled to accuse the Prophets of the same crime when they doe so often mocke at the strange gods But wherefore are you not rather offended with them then with mée who haue not inueÌ„ted any thing but do speake only after them To what purpose doe they call the Priestes the Sepulcher of Iesus Christ Is not Iesus Christ risen agayne and ascended into heauen doth not the Apostle say Christ once raised from death dyeth no more For as much then as Iesus Christ liueth eternally at y right hand of god his father what needeth he of a sepâ—lohre especially of such as these are When he dyed for our sinnes he had his sepulchre in Hierusalem in which Ioseph of Aramathia and Nicodemus dyd bury him in They dyd not as the Scithians eate him fleshe and bones and bury him in their bellyes and entrayles But in a goodly new sepulchre hewen in stone The priestes then camibâ— saye that they are that sepulchre in which Iesus Christ was put and out of which he rose againe Wherefore if they be the sepulchres of Iesus Christ it must be that he is dead sithence and that he was buryed in theyr bellyes For I cannot vnderstande how he could be buryed if they haue not eaten him as the Scithians dyd eate theyr parents and friends And if you doe thinke that I tell you a thing that is strange consider and marke well the woords that the Apostle hath wrytten to the Hebrewes He witnesseth that Iesus Christ was once offered and he shal be no more Afterward telleth the cause For if he must be often offered he must dye often sith that there is no sacrifice without effusion of bloud Yet the priestes say that they doe offer and sacrifice really euery day Iesus Christ it followeth necessarily y either they do put him to death that he dyeth agayne or els y the holy Apostle is an euil Logicioner that he concludeth euilly knoweth not the rules and lawes of his Silogismes and consequences If it be so the Priestes may well be called the Sepulchers of Iesus Christ but not of the true Iesus Christ whom Saint Stephen did sée at the righte hande of God who as the Apostle witnesseth dyeth no more vnto whome I giue more credite then vnto all the Priests and Monkes which euer were or shall be And therefore eyther it must bée that they haue forged a newe Iesus Christ that dyeth and riseth agayne euery day and as often as they list and that they are all lyers or els that the Apostle hath written against the truth the which is impossible Wherefore it followeth that the first part of my proposition is true Eusebius Doe you not beléeue that the Priestes haue power to consecrate the body and bloude of Iesus and that they eate it flesh and bones as grose and as bigge as he was on the crosse Hillarius I doe aske you an other question wheÌ„ they haue eaten the flesh the bones what do thy with the skinne And how they could dine vpon Christmas day after that they haue eateÌ„ him thrée times For me thincketh they should haue their bellies too ful strouted Also wherefore doe you not demaund of me this question which is also very coÌ„mon among your deuines To weet whether Iesus Christ did eate himselfe Thomas What resolution doe they giue Hillarius That he did you may thereby know what reason there is in their doctrine Will you haue a more greater absurdite We do eate his flesh spiritually for to haue life But he who is the life what néede hath he to eat himselfe And if Iesus Christ did eat himselfe it must be that he hath two bodies the one which eateth and the other which was eaten O Lord God what dreams are these But if your Priests do eat the flesh and the bones they are worse then the Scithians For they were content with y flesh of man without eating the bones Neuerthelesse to the ende that you do not thincke that I will gainsay the word of Iesus Christ and that I am some Caparnaite who is offended with the preachinge that he made of eating his flesh and drincking his bloud or as the hearers who did forsake it I aunswere that there is thrée wayes to eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christ The
to mingle it with a little wine then with salt as the Priests do in their holy water Eusebius They do it not for to drincke Hillarius I beléeue it well for they are not so deintie they loue the wine as well as I. But wherefore doe they it Thomas For to deface purge the sinnes by the sprinckling thereoff Hillarius I am ashamed of their folly One may very well say vnto them as Diogenes said vnto a certeyne Panim who sprinckled himselfe with water for to purge his sinnes after their auncient manner O miserable man saith he if thou hast sâ—â—led in thy Grammer and committed a fault and incongruite thou canst not be absolued w sprinckling of the water how dost thou then thinck with the sprinckling of the water to be absolued and washed from thy sinnes Thomas It séemeth vnto me that if you haue such great thirst as you say you wil not begin to enter into a new matter for to make vs fast any longer Theophilus Admit it were so that we had a day of fasting For it is now Lent although it were not yet I do beléeue that Eusebius would haue fasted peraduenture Thomas also And when we shal be all vnder the Popes religion we must theÌ„ fast the Lent al out or els at the leastwise a great part thereoff Hillarius It is true and it is better for vs to fast at libertie then through compulsion But sith that ye be all of that minde let vs goe then to dinner ¶ Finis primi Dialog THE SVMME OF THE seconde booke SIth that we haue already declared in the first Dialogue the agreeing of the Platonicall Poeticall and Papisticall Purgatory and the diuers manners of purgations that haue bene aswell among the Panims as the Christian Idolaters and howe all those things were inuented by the Priestes for to serue their auarice and rapacitie the which was more greater in them then it was euer in others Now we wil bring in declare and sette foorth perticulerly their other practises the office which thei do for the dead how at the funeralls burialls mortuaries they follow more the errours and abuses of the Panims then the examples of the true seruaunts of God aswell in their singings and lamentacions that they make for the deade as in torches lyghtes belles ryngings and sepultures Therefore I haue intituled this Dialogue The office of the deade In which also we will declare what is the honour that is due vnto the deade what ought to be the burialls funeralls and the sorrowing of the Christians what hath bene the beginning in making coÌ„memoration prayers for the dead Also we will declare the principall poynts of the Masse of Requiem that they doe sing for the dead and wee will proue by their owne words that they doe pray rather for the Saints and Saintes and for those that are in Paradise in ioye and celestiall rest then for those which are in paynes be it in Purgatorie or in any other place according to their owne doctrine and how by their owne praiers they sufficiently testifie and witnesse that in their doctrine there is nothing that is certeine and that they holde not those whome they doe iudge to be in Purgatory as assured of their saluation It shal be also declared what is the true Purgatory of Iesus Christ and the true satisfaction of the Christians towards God for their sinnes and how the Papisticall Purgatory and satisfactions doe disagree altogether from the promises of god the remission of sinnes by Iesus Christ It shal be declared in lyke maner for what cause God doth chastise and punish the faythfull in this world and not in the other what are the good workes and wherefore God will iudge men by them and how we must watch and do penaunce and trauayle whilst we are in this lyfe without trusting vppon the good deedes that other will doe for vs after our death Item what are the good deeds that we ought to doe for the dead and wherein we may succour helpe them and the great iniury wrong that the Popes and the Priestes doe vnto Iesus Christ and to all the Christian people holding them in the sincke and dungeon of their peruerse doctrine and traditions What fishermen they are and what their flouds and ryuers are wherein they fish and catch the golde and siluer and not the men what are their relicks and holy bodyes and how they do abuse the dead bodyes to the great dishonour of God and of his Saints as the Coniurers and Sorcerers doe And wherto serueth all that which is done at the burialls and chiefely to those which are buried in the habite or coole of Saint Fraunces And in the ende we declare how Iesus Christ contayneth in himselfe all that which is needefull for vs both in lyfe and death For to enter then into the matter Theophilus bringeth the other in order THE SECOND DIALOGVE which is called the office of the dead THeophilus You did erewhile complayne bicause that in speaking of Purgatory wée were so affectioned after it that it hav almost made vs to forgette our dinner But now I doe feare very much the contrary that the dinner doth make vs forget purgatory and the residue which yet remained to be thought on Hillarius You know very well that the Priestes haue accustomed to breake their fast and to eate the soppe in the wyne in the middest of their Masse Wherefore it were good reason that we did pause a lyttle in the middes of our Masse for to breathe our selues For we haue sayd and sunge inough for the dead for to drinke once And yet wée are more beneficiall vnto them then the Priestes For wée haue not dronken vppon their costes and expences Thomas Therefore you are so much the soberer For me thinkes that you haue not druncke very much according to that that you say you were a thirst Hillarius I toke that which sufficed me and no more and was content For it doth to me more good then all that which the Priestes and Moonkes haue eaten and dronken in the name of the dead doth profite the dead It is already longe since that I would haue brought in for you that but I doe alwayes wayte when that Eusebius would beginne But I know very well that the dinner hath a lyttle abated his choler and that the aduice and counsayle of Seneca is good who counsayleth those that are subiecte to ire choler not to fast nor to take in hande any wayghty matter if they do finde themselues by experience to be more enclyned to wrath before they haue eaten then after bicause that hunger increaseth it the more Eusebius Therefore doe you breake your fast so willyngly in the morning and are so much afraide to fast You must not impute my choller vnto fasting but to your importunate and wicked tongue For he must haue great patience which would not be moued to wrathe through your
heritages doe desire that their frieÌ„ds kinsmen should die If the Priests of the Panims had bene like vnto our Priests I doubt not but that they would haue ioyned vnto those héere For they desire as much the death of men and more then those sith that they make do the occupation both of the one the other Wherfore when I heare them sing their songs so pitiously and lamentable about the dead their graues me thincks that I sée children cry as the prouerbe saith at the burying of their stepmother And that they are like vnto the little children who do wéepe laugh all with one winde by and by are appeased so the when one gyueth them a péece of bread or an apple and that which they aske for Euen so we must appease those giue theÌ„ money to comfort them Afterwards as soone as they haue receiued it behold them mapings lamentations are ended their sorrow is tourned into ioy Requiem into Gaudeanius Theophilus This that you speake séemeth to be sowre sharp vnto Eusebius But I am certeine that if he did read a little the which S. Cyprian hath written against the auarice gréedinesse of the Priests Prelates of their rapine theft towards the dead in his booke against Demetrian he shal finde the thing a little more swéeter and pleasant Hillarius I do thincke the they determine none other thing but to abolish all the institutioÌ„ of the true Church of Iesus Christ for to reduce bring it to Iewishnesse and Panimry The auncient Panims haue accustomed to hire for ready money some minstrel or many minstrels after the estate of him that dyeth who shall singe with their instruments many lamentable and pitifull songs of the calamities miseries of the olde time for to comfort the parents friends of the dead hearing of other mens misfortunes and letting them to vnderstand thereby that they were not alone For as men do commonly say The consolation comfort of the miserable is to haue compaignions They do it also to the end that thorow the harmony of the instruments they should be drawen away féele lesse dolour and griefe The minstrels then do accompany the pompe and funerall procession and play their notes before the dead body sounding their Trumpets Flutes Drumme for to moue the hearers to sorrowe and lamentation Sometime they do sing of the praise of the dead according to the note that the minstrel doth sound the affections that he giueth to his songs instruments the parents friends of the dead do strike their breasts and begin to wéepe lament and not content with that but do hire some to lament wéepe for to helpe them to sorrowe and wéepe and to singe the complaintes and chieflye women bycause that they are by nature more pitifull and myleh harted to wéepe as the Biernoys besides Gascoyne and in Alexandria doe yet vse vnto this daye and doe so their office that one woulde saye that the matter toucheth them They haue also accustomed in many places to shaue their beard in token of sorrow and mourning Thomas Whereto serueth all that for the dead Hillarius Whereto serueth for theÌ„ now all the that the Priests doe What greater honour can we doe vnto them then to bury them honestly in the earth followinge the sentence of God which hath sayd Earth thou art and into earth thou shalt retourne againe Theophilus The true seruaunts of God Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles haue not much vsed any other Ceremonies and we know not to followe a better rule and example then theirs and the admonition which the Apostle doth giue vnto vs He forbiddeth vs expresly the we should not sorrow for those the are fallen a sléepe as the Panims and Gentiles doe who haue no hope The holy Apostle would not bringe vs to such barberousnesse as hath bene sometime vsed among the Panims who did eate the dead bodies or els did giue them to be deuoured torne in péeces with dogs birdes fishes without burying them As many authours as well Panims as Christians do witnesse it of the Scithians Indians Bactrianians Hircanians Pontickes other such like barberous people Hillarius I thincke the Fryer Geneure who is so much praised in the booke of the conformities of saint Fraunces came from some of those Nations For among all the other meruailous vertues which are reported of him this is one that he caused the Diuels to flée away seuen miles without euer retourning againe It is writteÌ„ in the same booke that he sayd I would to God that when I shall dye ther do procéed and come out froÌ„ my body such a stincke the none dare to come néere it finally that men would cast me out without burying of me that I might dye all alone abhominably that they would suffer mée to be deuoured of the dogs Theophilus Some haue accused the Lutherians for that they make none accompt of the dead bodies bicause they condemne the superstitions of the Papistes But I doe not thincke that euer any of them woulde speake so vnhonestly neither of his owne body nor yet of any others Yet Diogenes had more honesty how dogish soeuer the hée was For although the he did not much take care for hys burying yet he coÌ„maunded not that one should giue his body to the dogs It is true the he did say that hée had no great care how he should be buried For those that shall haue the house will not suffer him to rot within it And if they do cast it out at the least let them cast a staffe after it for to defende and kéepe it from the dogges I knowe not in what Theology this Fryer Geneure hath learned that honestie For the Apostle speaketh not after that sort Also I would not that we should bée so superstitious in the burying as were the Grecians Romaines and other like people who estéemed themselues more humaine and honest and that wée shoulde so lament and sorrowe for the death of our parentes and friendes as they dyd as though we had no more hope and trust of the resurrection then they and as though wée dyd thincke them altogether dead and lost And although that there was more greater moderation in this among the Iewish people then among all the other and that they dyd kéepe an â—â—der more agréeing to nature yet neuerthelesse the Apostle would that we should be bolde and constaunt forasmuch as wée haue more certeine and sure witnesse of the resurrection of the dead and more greater and excellenter reuelation of the Gospell then this auncient people had at the leastwise that we doe not worse then they but that we may witnesse through our constancie and countenaunce the faith that wée haue in Iesus Christe and our hope in hys resurrection The Apostle saith not simply Sorrowe not for those that are fallen a sléepe and
is the woord of God for to defend them against the Diuell to driue him away For these are the true weapons which the Diuell feareth and which S. Paul giueth to the Christian knight Hillarius If that little children or any olde dreamers and fooles had held the opinion one could not but laugh But is it not great shame that such men who would be estéemed and counted the pyllers of the fayth would forge and inuent such a Theology But haue they not good leasure to baptize the Belles Is not that to mooke and scoffe with Iesus Christe and hys baptisme to baptize Brasse and insensible mettalles The aduenturers or vagabondes whiche baptized a Calfe and called him a pyke for to eate him in Lente in stéede of a fishe hadde not they more cause to doe for I doe iudge that they thincke that one can driue awaye the Dyuelles as they doe the byrdes from the vanes If the Dyuelles were lyke vnto the Bées they woulde staye them rather And I doe feare that it happeneth so well vnto them For as farre as we can perceiue by their workes there is not a people that hath so manye Dyuelles aboute them But you haue lette out the beste that is they saye that at the solempne feastes wée muste ringe muche and a longe time for to awaken the drunckardes and those that sléepe But will you haue mée tell you the true interpretation of their Bels Consider the forme fashion of a Bell. It hath a little head but it hath the greater belly Wherefore I cannot vnderstand according to the Morrall Allegoricall or Anagogicall sence but that they doo signifie that they are no other thing but fatte and slouthfull bellyes and that they passe not on the head but onely on the belly And euen as they are but bellies they doe also very well knowe that other men doe loue more the belly then the head notwithstanding that all haue a goodly belly and loue it well there are but a fewe which care much for the head the brayne wit and vnderstanding nor which take any thought to haue it Wherefore I beléeue that they haue determined so much to ringe theire Belles that they maye breake altogether the heade of those whiche haue yet a verye lyttle to that ende that neyther wytte nor vnderstandinge myght abyde in them In suche sorte that wée maye well make it a Prouerbe as well as the auncientes haue made it of the Basinnes Caudrons and Belles of Dodonaeus Beholde the truest exposition friende Eusebius that I can at this time gyue vnto thée And thincke not that thou canst gyue vnto mée a better nor more proper excepte peraduenture thou wylte saye that they dooe the same after the immitation of the Gallots Curets and Corybants Priestes of the Goddesse Cyble the mother of Gods whome they doe carrye vppon their shoulders in their processions sounding of Cymballes Drummes Belles and other such instrumentes which doe make a great noyse wyth the crye and sound of their Letanyes which they goe singinge after as manye auncient Authours doe witnesse as well Panims as Christians namely Lactantius which alledgeth some verses of Ouid who among others in a few woordes speaking of hir feast comprehendeth all these things saying Then foorthwith shal be heard the home of Berecynthia blow Of Cyble graundame of the Gods thapproching feast to show And Eunuches playing vpon Drums whose noise the aire doth fill And ringing out the braying blast of Trumpet sounding shrill She on their shoulders sitting soft is borne about the Towne By Priestes and seruaunts of hir owne with noise and shriching sowne Epiphanius that good and learned Byshop and of great estimation among the auncients did write a booke that hée made of heresies saying that ther were in his time some women of Siria who did begin to carry in that sort the Image of the Virgin Mary and offered vnto it oblations But hée saith that the same superstition and Idolatry was repressed and beaten downe through the diligence of good Bishops pastors knowing that the same was none other thing but an imitation of the furor and madnesse of the Panims Wherefore Epiphanius numbreth that errour in the Roule of the heresies that hée hath made And yet neuerthelesse our Priests haue not ceased therefore to put it foorth and more greater Idolatry then euer was among the Priests of Cyble and Isis after whose example they doe carrye their Idolls Relicks Hearses and Shrines and for to declare that they are their successours they haue theire heads shauen their surples many other ornaments of lynnen and white cloth as those had as the Poet sayth Attending on the goddesse then the crue both great and small Are clad in lynnen garments whyte to honour hir vvithall And agayne he sayth These shauen Priests in white arayd ensued the Goddesse grace And making noyse with sound of Droms did follow hir a pace Forasmuch then as it is thought that they make Diuells afrayde and driue them away by the sounde of the belles those there then oughte to make them tremble and quake Wherefore I thinke that forasmuch as our Priestes doe say that their belles are the Trompettes of the great King and that their streamers that they carry in their Processions are his Enseigns and Banners they ought also to carry and sound Drommes and Trumpets for to make it better appeare vnto the Diuell that they wil ioyne a strong battaile with him that they come not with false Enseignes that their quarrell is not the sport and play of lyttle children and that they will not suffer the auncient custome of their olde auncestours and predecessours to bée abolyshed whome we haue of late named from whome they doe not much differ as touchinge their Ceremonyes But the most greate difference that I can finde is that these héere are not so chast as the others are bicause they are not gelded as they are For that should be agaynst their orders and Canons and manye women would be barren if we had not such Saintes for to make them beare children And as touching that that they doe ring their belles agaynst the time of thunderinges lyghtenings and tempests and that they doe coniure them they cannot deny but in the same they do follow the Panims who had their exorcismes coniuratione ringinges and other manner of doings agaynst them which did not much differ from those of these héere It is very true that the Panims had not such belles bicause they were not then vsed as they are now But in steade of them they clapped their hands the one agaynst an other for to make an noyse made a noyse with their mouthes for to appease and quallyfie the thundrings and lyghtenings after the manner as men doe clap their horses and make much of them thinking that the same would serue in steade of a remedy that the lyghtening should not strike
hope either to merit or not to merit and a place to do good or euill as in this mortal life and to be damned or saued Eusebius There is great difference For in this life man may merit or not merit of him selfe But after he is dead he can do no more for him selfe but others may do it for him And the merites of those that bee alyue doe serue him to saluation Theophilus And so by that meanes Iesus Christe shal be a Sauiour neither of the lyuing nor of the dead the merite of his death and passion shall saue neither the one nor the other but the lyuing shall saue themselues during their life and after their death others that shal be thē alyue shal saue them especially the Priestes and Moonks By that meanes we haue many sauiours and men should neuer be certaine nor sure of their saluation neither before their death nor afterwards whiche is a thing altogether contrarie to the doctrine of the scriptures Eusebius And if I would maintaine that those which are in hell can be somewhat deliuered from the pains theroff eyther by the prayers and good déedes of the liuing or bicause of the good deedes that they themselues haue done during their life that should be a strange thing vnto thée What wouldest thou aunswere to that Haue wee not the witnes of a great many histories and good doctours worthy to be beleeued which certefie vs how that Sainct Gregory deliuered Traianus the Emperour from the paines of hell who notwithstanding did put to death many of the Christians and namely Sainct Ignacius the discyple of S. Iohn the Euangelist It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers that Sainct Machaire deliuered a priest being a Panim who affirmed vnto him that he was damned And in the life of sainct Brandon we read that hee did sée Iudas which walked by the meadowes of whom he asked the cause wherefore he was not in hell who aunswered him bicause of the good deedes that he did in his life time he had therefore some solace and comfort Theophilus If Thou canst no better confirme my sentence nor better proue that your doctrine is altogether vncerteine variable inconstant and gamesayinge it selfe For hast thou not alreadie confessed vnto me that the priestes do not praye for the dampned bicause that there is no deliuerance from hell and from the fire of hell Consider I pray thée how that agreeth with those goodly fables with that which thou meanest now to speake off Eusebius If you had read diligently the bookes of the good auncient doctors and especially of Saint Thomas you might easely make all these places agrée For they do alledge foure opinions reasons for to satisfie suche doubts The first is that Traianus was raysed thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory and that he dath done penance in this life thorowe the which he meryted grace and pardon of his sinnes Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God and hath bene saued and this is the best allowed opinion of the doctors The second is that the soule of Traianus was not simplye deliuered from the paine and fault thereof but that his paine was suspended and delayed vntill the daye of iudgement and afterwardes shal be saued The thyrd opinion is that Gregory deliuered him not from the place of hell but from the paine The fourth which is also best allowed among all the other that the soule of Traianus was deliuered from the paines of hell and hath obtayned mercie thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory the which thing was done not after the common law but after the disposition and dispensation of the wisdome and prouidence of God who did foresee that Sainct Gregory should pray for him Wherefore it hath not dampned it by or through diffinitiue sentence but by a sentence suspenciue The which thing hath bene a perticuler priuiledge For Sainct Hierome saith that the priuiledges are but for a fewe people and not for all For the priuiledges of a fewe are not lawes common to all And the things which go out of square from the common lawe ought not to bee drawen into a consequence Hillarius I thinke that that is the priuiledge whiche is written in the Aeneados of Virgill the which Cyble recited speaking to Aeneas after this manner Then prophet Cyble said O borne of bloud of heauenly kind Thou Troyan Duke the way that leads to hell is light to finde Both nights and dayes the doore of Limbo blacke doth open gape But backward vp to climbe and free to Skies est soones to scape Their woorkes their labour is few men whom equall loue did loue Our vertue pearcing all did to the starres aduaunce aboue Beholde the priuiledge of that good doctor whiche peraduenture Iupiter in whom Traianus did beléeue granted vnto him Theophilus I do greatly meruayle both of Thomas of Aquin and of other questionarie doctors whiche haue taken suche great paines for to couler and set foorth a fable It must be that they haue had very much leasure and that they were not muche occupied about other better affaires They would sooner haue giuen a more true and certeine solution if they had by and by answered that they receiued not such fables as some of their owne secte haue done namely our maister Iohn Maioris the Scotte the whiche I haue heretofore heard reade in the Colledge of Mountaigu Hee reiecteth without making anye doubt both the history of Sainct Machaire and also that of S. Brandon As touching that same of Traians although that he alledge the common solutions of other doctors yet neuerthelesse he first doth aunswer that he knoweth not from whence that history had his first beginning the which hath no certaine author not withstanding that some doe attribute it vnto Iohn Damascenus But how shoulde hee haue written it sith that according to their owne witnesses and chronicles he raigned long time before that saint Gregory lyued and was dead before that Sainct Gregory was borne For their chronicles do witnes that Damascenus florished in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familier with the Emperour Theodosius The which yet neuerthelesse I beléeue not For by that account he had lyued in the time of Sainct Ambrose neuerthelesse there is great differēce betweene his bookes and these of Sainct Ambrose For these of Sainct Ambrose are a great deale purer keepe a great deale better the puritie of that aunciēt church But peraduenture they meane the young Theodoseus which rayned after Honorius Although that it be so by their owne Chronicles he was before the time of Gregory about 152. yeares For they do write that Gregory reigned in the yeare 592. Hillarius It must néeds be then that either the Chronicles are false or the witnes of those the do make Damascenus the author of that fable Except peraduenture they will say that thorow the spirite of prophecie he hath
deade which were truely Christians And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface touching this matter that it is not long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time Wherefore I giue more credite vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians and we call them the good déedes for the dead then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles Eusebius If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche you shall not finde that doctrine so newe but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius of the first seuenth thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate making remembraunce of the dead and for what cause they did the same of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner Bicause that some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye other some the seuenth and others the thirty in the office of the dead Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs It saith After that Iacob was dead Ioseph commaunded his seruants that they should bury him And the children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished for so were the daies of the burial compted they lamented seuen dayes We ought to follow that solemnitie the whâ—che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium that the children of Israel lamented Moses and did wepe thirty dayes and then the mourning was ended heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters as you say and affirme but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God Theophilus I am abashed I knowe not whether I shall speake it of the ignorance mallice of your doctors For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine they do greatly erre and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked to peruerte and marre the sence of the same for to maintaine their abuses and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour Firste they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention neither of Purgatory nor of Masse for the dead and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead For yet in that time the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche and was not so muche corrupted as she hath bene afterwards sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate This then that he maketh mention of the first seuenth thirty and forty daye in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius is not set forth by him for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms as you doe but rather to draw them backe from it and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people that they shoulde mourne seuen thyrty nor forty dayes bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob Moses Aaron and Marie their sister yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said and to banket and make the priests broken as they do dayly at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes and sinne against the Christian liberty if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture and of the thinges done by the Israelites draw out take lawes and statutes for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of god For first of all God neuer hath defined nor determined by his lawe certaine dayes nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead nor for to make any commemoration of them as it appeareth very well by the examples asore alledged For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob Moses Aaron and of Marie For they did kéepe Iacob in Aegypt fortie dayes after that hee was enbaumed and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx dayes He was carried into Hebron afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad But Moses Aaron and Marie their sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes Thou doest see alreadie here that they are not very superstitious in the dayes and that some time they haue vsed eyther more or lesse It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes For it is written Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life But when it is for some noble personne as for a Prince or a Prophet or anye man of great estimation and renome they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the people of Israel asmuche and more then anye other euer were The mourning of Iacob was a little more loÌ„ger bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land of Canaan not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt as touching his nature or that it had any more vertue for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests But they did that for to witnes in the article of the
sicke and that he had some hope of lyfe he watched fasted and prayed making request vnto God for the childe and dyd lye flat on the earth and during the space of seuen dayes all those of his house no not his auncients and counsellers could not make him to lye on a bed nor to aryse vp from the earth nor to eate nor drinke with them vntyll such tyme he vnderstoode that the childe was dead the which thing none of his seruaunts durst tell him off thinking that he would haue bene mernaylously sadde and pensise after that hée should bée aduertised of his deathe sith that all the time of his sickenesse whilest that there was yet some hope of lyfe he alwayes wepte and lamented But it happened cleane contrarye For as soone as hée knewe for a certeynetie that the childe was dead he arose from the earth and washed and anoynted himselfe and chaunged his apparell and went into the house of the Lord and prayed and after came to his own house and bad that they should set meate before him and he did eate And made greater cheere then before whereoff his seruaunts were much abashed and asked him what is this that thou hast done vnto whom he aunswered while the childe was a lyue I fasted and wepte For I thus thought who can tell whether God will haue mercy on me that the childe may lyue But now séeing it is dead wherefore should I fast Can I bring him agayne any more I shall goe to him but hée shall not come agayne to me Dauid teacheth vs a good lesson and learneth vs to praye the one for the other while wée bée in this lyfe and to make prayers vnto God and to lament and mourne for our bretheren and neighbours whilest they are alyue whether they be in health or sicke prosperitie or aduersitie and not after they be dead For whilst that they be sicke we ought to pray for them that it would please God to pardon their sinnes and ours to giue vnto them health and to suffer them a while to be with vs and comfort vs to serue moreouer vnto his church if he know that the same is most expedient for the glory of his name and our profite For whilest that man is sicke we know not certeynly what God meaneth to boe with him We know very well that his wil cannot be but good that he wil dispose all things to the best But we cannot know perticulerly wythout a singuler reuelation whether that it be better that the sick person doe lyue or dye both for him and for vs Wherefore we ought to pray and weepe for him whilest that we can ayde and helpe him and that he is yet alyue with vs in the which we haue place to repent to obteyn pardon for our sinnes and we ought chiesly to bewayle the poore sinners whom we see to goe to perdition as Samuel bewept Saul séeing him forsaken of God And Sainct Paule the Corinthians whom he law to be deteyned and kept in sinnes if it would please God to haue mercy vpon them But sith that God hath once declared vnto vs his will we must holde our selues vnto the same and to take no more care for those whome God hath called vnto himselfe from among vs but we ought onely to aduise and sludie how we should dispose and order our selues for to follow them after the example of Dauid Wherevnto agreeth very wel the doctrine of Daynct Iames who admonusheth the faithfull if any of them bee diseased to call vnto them the true Priests of the Gospell and Elders of the congregation for to comfort them with the worde of God and for to praye for them that they may haue the forgiuenes of their sinnes and to comfort and procure all that they can for the health of their bodyes and soules and for their health and thorow prayers and oyntments and other lyke things which God hath giuen vnto the primitiue Church the which hath receyued the gyfte to doe miracles and in the which the Apostles did miraculously heale the diseased Anoynting them with oyle not after the manner as the Papisticall Priestes doe which doe anoynt the diseased not thorow the hope that they haue to heale them For if they did thinke that they should heale them they would not anoynt them Hillarius They would not doe so For they should loose much nor they should haue so many fatte hydes Theophilus For that same cause they call that vnction extreme and the last sacrament And they giue it not for the health of the body nor for to heale the diseased as the Apostles did nor to that intent as Saint Iames hath written but did giue it for the health of the soule as thoughe their holy oyle could penetrate in the same and that the haly Ghost and forgiuenesse of sinnes wertied vnto the oyle I know not whereto the vnction can serue for the poore diseased such as the do vse sith that thei haue no promises of god that the gift of miracles is not giuen vnto thē as vnto the Apostles to that primitiue church they do none other thing but read the Psalter babble it in a strange language vnto the sicke person of which he receiueth no instruction nor any consolation at all Hillarius If thou know not wherto that vnction serueth I will tell thée First that is a witnesse for to proue that in that same they are the Apes of the Apostles for to counterfet their workes and myracles as they counterfetted those of Iesus Christ in the Baptisine of young children Afterward it serueth vnto the diseased for to make them hope to be healed as the comming of the hangman vnto the théeues when they doe sée him For they know right wel that he is the messenger of death So when the poore patients séeing the Priestes comming with their Creame bores Dyle and Drogues they may well thinke that men accompt them for deade and their time is come For such Phisitians haue not accustomed to come nor to bring their Triacle but at the very houre that the sicke person is abandoned and forsaken of other Phisitians They may iudge that their hangman is come who careth nor for the soule but requireth onely the body and the spoylyng thereoff Theophilus There is nothing truer Wherefore they cannot alledge Saint Iames for their defence nor also the auncient doctors whom they would take for bucklers for al their matters They make a great accompt of Denis who hath written the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hierarchies saying that that is Saynct Denis of Athens who was conuerted by the preaching of Saynt Paul which is not lyke to be true For the stile of those bookes sinelleth not lyke vnto that of the Apostles nor of their tyme Furthermore Eusebius in his ecclesiasticall history maketh mention so dilygently of the bookes of Denis Bishoppe of Corinth and neuer maketh any mention of those of Denis
Areopagite Wherefore it is most lykest to be true that he hath written nothing or els Eusebius would not haue helde his peace more then of the others But although he shoulde haue written those bookes yet he dyd sufficiently declare by them that at the tyme as those were written there was not suche extreme vnction as there is at this present He maketh mention that the Christians vsed of custome to anoynte the faythfull in the baptisme in witnesse that they did arme themselues for to fight and the dead in lyke manner when one buryeth them in signe and taken that they haue valyauntly fought and that they haue gotten and obtayned the victory and are gone to rest But he speaketh not a word of the anoynting of the sicke and diseased the which with much adoe hée woulde haue omitted without touching and expressing it aswell as he hath done the creame of the baptisme And although it should be so that that which the Priestes doe shoulde haue some certeyne foundation in the doctrine of Saynt Iames yet they cannot deny but that that place bath great coulour for to condempne that which they do about the dead For they haue not much redde in all the holy Sacripture which hath more appearaunce at the first sight for to colour their ceremonyes new sacraments which they haue inuented without the ordinaunce of Iesus Christ then that place bath for to giue lyght vnto theire extreme vnction and those muttering and mumblyng of the Psalter which they doe make about the sicke persons And yet neuerthelesse there is not one onely sillable vppon which they can stay or take hold for to grounde and allow the least of the ceremonyes and supersticions which they commit about the dead Hillarius It is neuerthelesse much to be meruayled at that if there had bene in their case any imitacion of the traditions of the Apostles and of the Primatiue Churche but that Saint Iames would haue touched some worde sith that he hath already taken in hande the matter of the sicke and diseased and that occasion also did suffer to speake of the dead and to teach how the Christians the Ministers of the Church ought to behaue themsolues if such things were necessarye which sithens the time of the Apostles haue bene brought into the Church of God. Theophilus Thy reason is not euill Wherefore me thinketh friend Eusebius that thou maist now vnderstand that that place of Saint Ambrose and the other reasons which thou hast put forth for to proue thy intentien to confirme thy matter conserue serue thée nothing at al for to allowe that which nowe in such a case is dene in your Churches But rather to condempne and reproue them For you your selfe followe not the example of the Israelites propouâ—ded by Saynt Ambrose and your Decrées and Canons nor you are not coâ—tented with the dayed which are there specified nor with the manner described in them for to celebrate the commemoration of the dead but doe adde to it many other things of which you cannot alleadge any example to be on your side neyther in the olde nor new Testament nor of the auncient people of Israel nor also of the first Christians but of the Panims and Idolaters whom you doe follow kéepinge almost the very same dayes that they for the same haue chosen and with the lyke supersticion as they Wherefore I am abashed of Durand who expounding the misteryes and secrets contayned in the number of those dayes hath written among other thinges that some Christians haue also chosen the nynth day for to make the Dbsequies and commemoratien of the deade or haue vsed of custome to offer nyne dayes together for them that theire soules should be delyuered from paynes and ioyned and kiut together vnto the nyne order of the Angells But he addeth that the same was not allowed of some fearing least it should séeme that the Christians were unitators and followers of the Panims and Gentiles who had that same day dedicated vnto the obsequies coÌ„memoratioÌ„ of their dead as already hath ben touched Hillarius Duer and besides the witnesse of all the Poets and chiefely of Virgile who described that Anniuersarie that Aeneas made for his father Anchises the sacrifices playes that they celebrated in the nynth daye of the same we haue all the histories which are oâ— credite namely Titus Liuius who in many places maketh mention of those Nensnaines and nyne daies which they do cal Nouendium Nouendiale Theophilus But wherefore was the customes of that Christians more to be rebuked which do celebrate the nynth day the Nensuaines in the honour of that dead then ether which do celebrate that seuenth day thirty forty a hundreth or other lyke dayes For if the thing be good in one day how can it be euill in the other doth the number adde or giue any more greater holynesse to one of the dayes more then to an other And if the thing be nothing worth to one of the dayes what priuiledge haue the other for to make it better Eusebius Wherfore do you demaund the cause sith that it hath bene already alleadged by thine owne self reciting the wordes of Durand Do you thinke that that cause ought to suffice least it should not séeme that the Christians do follow that Panims allow their manner or doings Hilla Truly you looke well to your busines haue wel prouided for your affaires Me thinketh that that diuel who hath ben that authour of your supersticioÌ„s idolatries in very déede hath ben a great Louldaue of a slougthful spirit if he had any iudgemeÌ„t in meÌ„ with whom he had to do if god by his iust iudgement had not taken froÌ„ theÌ„ their sence vnderstanding For what maske hath he taken for to disguyse himselfe withall to change one day into an other what differeÌ„ce is ther if you do that same things which were vsed amonge the Panims sauing that you doe chaunge the daye Which is best eyther to blaspheme God the third seuenth thirtie and fortie day or the fourth nynth tenth or fiftle Can one dishonour and blaspheme him more honestly in the one of those dayes then in the other What doe I care what day you take if you commit the same faultes As touching the dayes you haue chosen those same of the Iewes As touching the supersticion you do follow the same of the Panims desiring to shew that you are neyther Iew nor Panim you declare that you are lesse christians but that you haue a sect a new law lyke vnto that of Mahomet who haue not followed altogether neither that of the Iewes Panims nor yet that of the Christians But made one taking out of all those together that it pleased him and hath made a potage mingled with all sauces and corrupted with all poysons which doe in such sorte waste all that that maye be good that there remayneth nothing but the vyle venyme of
all errours heresies I know not vnto what I may compare more preperly your traditions then vnto those of that false prophet nor I do not well know what difference may be the greater between those except peradueÌ„ture I should say that in yours there is more of the imitation of the Panims and that your Rome and hir lawes is alwayes the auncient Rome and the lawes that she had before the reuelation of the Gospell The which thing I will shew vnto thée at the first sight by a goodly discourse the better to vanquish and ouercome thée sith that thou wilt not be contented with that which already hath bene sufficiently proued vnto thee not that I haue determined to rehearse all your ceremonyes and traditions For I had rather to number and tell all the sande of the Sea and to drawe out all the water from the same But I will content my selfe at this tune with the conference of Mortuaryes and with that which belongeth vnto them which haue bene among the panims the which you haue kept and the things which haue some affinitie with them Then I demaund of thée first of all if Durand did finde anything to say vnto the Christians which did celebrate the Nensuaines bicause of the affinitie that they séemed to haue with the Panims Wherfore then doe you allow those which doe celebrate the Anniuersaryes of the dead For the same neuer had other for his first authours then the Panims as I wil proue vnto thée by and by by their Theologians Thou arte not contented with that which Theophilus hath aunswered thee in that sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and Gregory those manner doings haue taken great force and haue bene much augmented among the Christians and thou doest no wrong For they are a greate deale more auneyent yea and inuented longe before the tyme of the Apostles if wee wyll beléeue Diodorus who affirmeth Pluto to haue bene the authour inuentour of them and of the funerall ceremonies as I haue already tolde thée before After whom came Aeneas who in the honour of his Father Anchises ordained and made Anniuersaries and yéerely feastes and sacrifices for the dead as the auncient histories doe witnesse whome the Poets haue followed who doe describe those thinges verye amply and chieslye Virgile who bringeth in Aeneas speakinge vnto his compaignions in this manner You mightie Troyans from the bloud of great Gods that discend This time is come about a perfect yeare is now at end Since when my father Anchisos blessed bones were put in ground And mourning alters for his holy relikes we did found And now the day if I doe not mistake approcheth neere That vnto me shall euer dolefull be and euer deere Since Gods hath pleased so If I this day were cast a land Among the sauage Moores or on the shotes of Syrtes sand Or eaught on Greekish seas or in Mycena towne aâ—slaue Yet pay my yeerely vovves I vvould vvith pompe of dueties braue And gifts in feastfull guise on alters large I vvould aduaunce Now here in hauen vve be among our friends not by no chaunce But by the Gods I trust of purpose wrought and for the nones To vvorship here my fathers blessed dust and precious bones Come on therefore let euery man set foorth these honors pure With myrth on euery side that of good vvindes we may be sure And as I yearely now these offring dayes to him doe make So vvhen my Citie builded is in Temples he shal take Now following the vow that Aeneas made héere Ouid also witnesseth how that manner of dooing by hym was carryd into Italy saying Aeneas the first deuiser was of all true godlinesse Which order brought to Italian land as stories doe expresse That yeerely giftes for fathers soules to Temple should be brought From him the people learned had new customes neuer taught After Aeneas came Romulus who did follow his example and hath also ordained a feast called Lemuria or Remuria an Anniuersarie in the moneth of May for his brother Remus and others that be dead as many historiographers do witnesse Ouid vescribeth after in this sort saying The order was of sacrifice on dayes Remuria hight For silly soules that were in paine to sing a Ditge at night The yeare then was not full so long for Februa feastes were none Nor Ianus guider of the monthes With double shape was knowne Yet after by and by they brought offrings for soules to haue And Nephewes sacrifyces made for graunsires laide in graue And by and by afterwardes sayth Romulus that day Remuria hight that sacrifice for sinne For graundsires soules from body past was offred first by him Now Numa the successor of Romulus not béeing contented with that which hath bene already instituted by his predecessors amongest other ceremonies that he gaue vnto the â—emishe people bee hath yet added vnto the first an other feast for the dead in the moneth of February whiche hée celebrated yearelye and contynued eleune dayes that whiche Romulus in institutinge the feaste of Lupercales hath already somewhat begun For that cause was that moneth called February the which Numâ— hath added with Ianuary to the yeare of Romulus which was not but ten monethes kéepeth yet the name For February sigmfieth as much in Latin as purgation or Purgatory And therefore the name was giuen vnto that seconde moneth bicause of the feastes and sacrifices which were celebrated as well for the purgation of the soules as for the purification of the Citie all the country to the which thinge all that moneth was dedicated the which Ouid hath all comprised in these verses saying The Romaine fathers Februa hight a sacrifice for sin And to the vvord doth crodue giue as doth consist therein And vvhatsoeuer is prepard by any meanes they may Is for to purge our bodies so that sinne rest not nor stay In time therefore of Fathers olde vvhieh sheared not their haire That month then tooke his name thereoff as it shall heare appeare At vvhat time that the Lupersales vvith sinne be rent and torne Did purne the earth from filthy sinne that then vvas al forlorne Or els bicause those times be pure that dead appeased bee When offring daies be gone and past as that time they did see Theophilus Friende Eusebius if you are not contented with the authoritie of Ouid yet I thincke at the leastwise you will not relect that same of Saincte Augustine who in his bookes of the Citie of God speakinge of that same matter confirmeth that whiche Ouid hath written alledginge hisâ—owne verses and saith amonge other things In that moneth was made the holy Purgatory which they cal Februm He vnderstandeth by the same that the Panims did make in that time theire holye and sacred sacrifices of purgation as wee woulde saye no we at this daye the Purgatory or purgatine Masse Hillarius Besides those general feasts and
hath made al things for himselfe of whom all proceeded and vnto whom it muste â—t urne againe Theophilus It is very true Hillarius I demaund of thee more ouer vnto what ende doest thou thinke that all those popishe ceremonies do tende As for mée I can perceiue but that they haue taken their sight regarde to none other ende but vnto the money If there bee any which will deny it I will proue it like a good Logicioner the cause by his effects Sith then that the finall cause is the money vnto whose honoure all these lawes do referre themselues and that the same is the author I do also coÌ„clude that it is the God vnto whome all these thinges ought to be brought the which Iesus Christ calleth Mammou if you wil know his name in that Hebrewe or Siriake tongue Dr if you had rather in Greeke we will cal him Plutus whom Aristophanes magnifieth so much that he saith that there is no God so great no not lupiter hymselfe vpon which he hath not rule and dominion which is not subiect vnto him Theophilus That agréeth not euill with the witnesse of Salomon saying vnto money are all thinges obedient Hillarius If you will in like manner giue it a latine name and to make it a Goddsse you may call it Pecunia that is money as the auncient Latinists who haue made of it a Goddesse Wherevnto agréeth very well the common translation in that place which you alledged of Salomon saying vnto money are all things obedient Wherefore I am abashed of that whiche the Poet luuenal hath spoken for that men haue not made vnto it a Temple nor consecrated any Aulter sith that it is so puissant a Goddesse vnto whom is attributed the title of the Dmnipotent and altogether mightie whiche belengeth vnto God alone For it is commonly sayd Money doth althings Theophilus Sainct Augustine following the authoritie of Varro also saith that the auncients haue called that God in Latine Aesculanus because that the first money that was made was of Brasse Hillarius You may already perceiue that Plutus and Pluto were bretheren or at the least cosin Germaines sauinge that the one reigned vppon the earth and the other vnderneath the earthe Nowe forasmuche as that GOD whether you call him Mammon Plutus Pluto Aesculanus or Pecunia bée the Authoure and lawe gyuer of all those lawes by good right and reason hee maye dyspence with them And when they haue his dispensation there remayneth no more sinne as in respecte of the Pope For hee dispenseth with more greater things insomuch that hée will not suffer the vse of mariage to eate flesh and white meates but that one hadde néede to sell GOD to eate and to doe that hee woulde doc I meane the Gods that hee himselfe hathe made and of whiche his Priestes call themselues the makers whiche yet neuerthelesse are but the creatures of the Pope Do not the most greatest Cardinals whiche for suche doe acknowledge and confesse themselues Wherein there standeth a merueilous case the whiche Solin hathe forgotten when that hee made his booke of the meruaples and wounders of the worlde For that is a case the like whereoff was neuer seene that the Creator shoulde be a Creature and the Creature a Ceator as it appeareth by that that the Pope is the Creator of the Cardinals his Creatures Afterwards the Cardinals his Creatures are Creators of their Creator For they doe create and make the Pope After the same manner woulde they dce with their God whiche they make and vnmake afterwards do make him againe as they liste Theophilus For my parts I will net much reply against thy solution But I know not whether that Eusebius wil be contented And therefore I will shewe vnto him other reasons If the Pope and the Priestes doe loue somuch contynencye and chastytye as they make a shewe wherefore haue they not rather followed the counsell of Saint Paule then to sorge and make newe lawes altogether contrary both to the Aposlolicall doctrine and the lawe of God Who is hée that better knoweth man his vertue constance and continencye or his infirmitie fragilitye and incontinency then GOD who hath made and fashioned him and who hathe throughly proued him Then if God who beste did know the burthen of man that hee himselfe woulde not restraine him by lawes of continencye whiche myght haue béene an occasion of sinne and incontinencie but hée hathe ordeyned the holye mariage for a remedye the whiche hée woulde haue common vnto all estates and vnto all sorte of people whiche haue not the gyste of contynencye and that it was permitted at all tymes and seasons Then wherefore is it that those here will compell so longe time men and woemen to liue chaste and doe seperate the Spouse from the Spouses the Dusbande from the wyfe for to giue vnto them occasion to fall into whoredome And they do not the same for two or thrée dayes as the Israelites dyd when GOD woulde manyfest himselfe vnto them in the Mounte Sina They hadde good occasion to sanctifie and prepare themselues for to see and beholde that greate maiestie of God and to receiue that holye lawe that hée would giue vnto them And yet neuerthelesse Moses did not assigne vnto them but thrée dayes for to seperate themselues from their wines Abimelech required no more of Dauid and hys compaignions although that hee did giue vnto them of the halowed breade whiche was not lawefull to eate but for the Priestes of the lawe onelye And yet those thinges are not happened but for one tyme They haue not made lawes nor rules yearely or perpetuall nor common vnto all men In like manner also Ioel gaue not a prefixte day vnto the Israelites but aomonyshed and athorted them only to returne vnto the Lord and to leaue off all other things and to forget all carnall pleasures and delites for to runne vnto his mercy thorow true repentaunce infastinges prayers to the ende he may withdraw his beatings and scorgings the which hee had alreadie stretched fooâ—th euer them But he compelled no man Such erhortations and admonitions are very honest and requisite in the Churche chiefely in the times of calamities miseries when God threateneth vs with his furour Iudgement But it is more then necessarie to follow the moderation the which Sainct Paul in such case hath vsed chiefly in this time now for that the worlde is so much corrupted and depraued and somuch subiect vnto hir carnal affections The Apostle knowing mans infirmitie dursse not forbid mariage to any man of what qualitie soeuer he were off not only for a day but admonished and commauÌ„ded by Gods authoritie vnto all those who haue not the gift of continency and chastity for to reframe themselues without beeing polluted defiled neither in their bodyes or soules thorow the burning concupiscence and worke of the fleshe to mary for
Doctors of the Churche are of our side or on yours And therefore I pray thée Eusebius that thou doe pursue thine enterprise and that thou shew forth so good places that they cannot be easely plucked from thy hands as they haue done those which thou hast alreadye taken of Sainct Ambrose Eusebius If I would display and shew foorth all that that I might alleadge aswel of the new and late Doctors as of the aunâ—ient I should aswell set them a worke as Hillarius did vaunt himselfe of late to haue set mée on worke but I haue not determined to alleadge others but of the most auncientest and of those whiche are of more greater authorite in the church by the which I will plainly proue that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead descended from the primatiue Churche and from the traditions of the Apostles For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes they would by and by reicete and despise their authoritie and woulde make none accompte of it But when I shall haue proued that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our side I shall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witnesse of the late Doctors and will more easelier stoppe their mouthes except they bée so past shame that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church which haue shored and held it vppe in the time of the Apostles and to affirme that there are not so manye good men and so wise and learned as they are Theophilus Thou shalt not finde vs so vnreasonable Put foorth thy case afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderstanded those of whom you doe glorye so much in Thomas I haue heard thée speake friend Fusebius of Sainct Augustine namely among others and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest by whom thou mayst better fight then by any other if thou canst finde in him a strong staffe for to defende thee and to make warre against them For I haue vnderstanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil serue theÌ„ better for to proue their sect then hée Wherefore I am sure that if thou canst do so much that thou canst proue that he is contrary vnto them they shall receiue a great ouerthrow and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle For if hée so whome they haue their recourse be their enemie they shal haue others which will rise against them Eusebius But so well assured theroff as thou are certeine that it is now daye And to the end thou shouldest not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my case I will shew vnto them the experience What do those wordes signifie which are written in his Encheridion which are also recited in y decrets and in the master of the sentences saying we must not denye that the soules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue when the sacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them or that almes is done in the Church But those thinges doe profite those who haue merited them during this lyfe to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them For there is a certeine manner of liuing whiche is not so good but that it requireth those things after death nor so euil but that after the same they may profit him But there is in lyke manner some kinde of lyfe so good that it requireth not the same And againe some so euill that it cannot haue ayde by those thinges after that this life shal be ended And therefore hee getteth here all the merite by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life Yet neuerthelesse there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD when he shall bée dead whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt This then whiche the Churche hath frequented for to prayse the dead is not contrary vnto that sentence of the Apostle which sayth wée shall all bée brought before the iudgement seat of Christ that euery man may receiue the workes of his body according to that hée hath done whether it hee good or badde For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite when hée lyued in this bodye that those thinges maye profite him For they profite not all men And wherefore doe they not profite all men but bycause of the difference of the lyfe the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye Then when the Sacryfices bée it of the Aulter or of almes déedes what soeuer they bée they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptised those are giuing of thankes for those whiche haue bene verye good and propitiations for those whiche haue not bene very euill for to make God fauorable vnto them But for the moste wicked and euill although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead yet neuerthelesse those are certeine consolations for the lyuing But they doe profite those that they doe profite eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remission and forgiuenesse or without all â—eubt to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and easier to beare Thomas Hath Sainct Augustine written that â—usebius Doest thou thinke mée so much a foole that would declare it otherwise I warrant you they would not let mee passe so if they might saye the contrary But I am certeine they dare not do it And though they woulde they cannot For the booke is of faith and credit Thomas Those wordes are very cléere not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead but also the sacrifice of the â—ulter Eusebius One cannot finde a thing more cléerer For it openeth so plainely all the matter perticulerly and goeth before the obiections replyings which those that do speake against it might make For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue and diuers merites of men And giueth to vnderstand that it must bée hée which woulde that such good déedes should bée profitable vnto him after hys death should be here conducted in such sorte that they may profit him that is to say that it must bée that he dye confessed and repentant And hée speaketh not onely this in this place but in manye other like amongest whiche hée addeth yet this that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead profit not all those for whom wée doe them Yet neuerthelesse bicause we do not know to whom it profiteth we must do theÌ„ to all y we leaue none out For it is a greate deale better that those to whome it can neither profit nor hurte should haue more then they neede then to want any thing vnto those which haue neede And in the same booke he saith moreouer wee doe reade in the second booke of the Machabees that sacrifice was offred for the dead but when one readeth them not in the auncient scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church is not little the which hath
as wée do driue out a pinne with one other pinne But they were not muche profitable vnto the Church Theophilus After that manner came the custome to make commemoration of the dead in the ecclesiasticall assembles and in the celebration of the supper ouer and beside the causes before alledged And afterwardes by little and little the superstition hath begun and is augmented vnto this which we doe now sée it We haue no example in all the holy Scripture that the Apostles haue done any thing of this About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian there was no question neither of Purgatory nor of prayers nor offeringes for to delyuer the soules but such which wée haue séene About the tyme of Ambrose and Augustine the superstition dyd beginne very much to take roote and to increase insomuch that in stéede of simple commemorations giuinge of thanckes and exhortations which they made in celebratinge the memory of the dead they had already begunne to dyspute that the prayers dyd profite them and that the question of Purgatorye was alreadye begunne to bée sturred vp For it is very easie for men yea the most sage and wysest to fall into superstition bicause that it is naturall vnto vs and chiefely about the dead by reason of an affection and loue that wée doe beare vnto our parentes and friendes whome wée cannot forget although they be absent from vs but wée doe abide and continue alwayes affectioned towardes them as though we might greatly ayde them yea many tymes more after they bée dead then before when they were alyue From thence it commeth that we are so much inclined to inuent and receiue euery thing that wee thincke maye serue them And althoughe in déede it serueth them to no ende yet neuerthelesse wée cannot refraine our selues bycause that wée thinke that wée doe féele comforte and satysfaction to our affection iudgeinge the affection of the dead after our owne our dealinges is fowardes them as towardes god What is the originall and begynninge of all Idolatry but our foolishe fantasse and affection by the which wée doe measure God thinkinge that hée taketh pleasure to that that pleaseth vs Wherefore wée serue him not after his wyll but after ours For in makinge feastes in reposinge our selues béeinge apparayled with goodly robes and gownes makinge greate chéere hearinge goodly singinges and melodyes walkinge about and passinge the time in goinge a procession wâ—e thincke that wee doe serue God well But what seruice doe wâ—e vnto him Doe we not rather serue our selues and our affections making vnto vs a God altogether like vnto our selues deliting our selues in the like vanities As much is happened vnto vs aboute the dead Hillarius When a man is angry yet it doth him much good to reuenge himselfe vpon some one for to make hym passe away his sorrow and anger although hée do receiue no great profit Euen so when a man is in sorrowe and beauines for the death of his friend hée muste haue some solace and comfort for to comfort his sorrow heauinesse And thereoff it came that the woman that loueth well hir husbande or the mother hir childe oftentymes cannot refrayne to kisse them after that they shal be dead or to embrace them some time with more greater affection then euer she dyd during the tyme that he lyued But wheretoo profiteth all that eyther to the quick or dead Thomas Nothing at all Hillarius And yet neuerthelesse y doth great good vnto hir that doth it and shâ—e is so affectioned Theophilus Of such affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images as it shewed vnto vs in the booke of wisdome yea almost the beginning of all Idolatry as all y auncient Fathers do witnes especially Lactantius Eusebius For the men for the affection that they did beare vnto the dead to comfort the sorrow that they had to remember them and besides to honour them they made Images and set vppe sumptuous Sepulcres in their honour Afterwardes they began to buyld Temples and Chappels hard by their graues and to set therein their Images Afterwardes in successe of time all was conuerted and chaunged into great superstition and Iâ—olatry And euen as it begun among the Panims so is it entred among the Christians by occasion of the Sepulcres of the Martirs For they haue begunne to make there their Ecclesiasticall assemblies to go thither to watch and pray vnto God and to celebrate the supper Afterwarde they haue builded Chappels and Temples and haue ordeyned Annuall feastes And after that those foundations were once sette vppe which was yet some thing tollerable the thinge was afterwardes peruerted Insomuche that in stéede of the Candles that they caryed for to watch all the night they began to offer them to the Saincts and to their Images In steede of the prayers y were made vnto god they haue begun to addresse direct theÌ„ vnto them In stâ—ede of that supper y they celebrated in y name of y death passioÌ„ of Iesus Christ they haue also begun to adoe the â—ememoration of y Saynts Sayntes And theroff came that Commemorantes which is in y Eauen of the Masse in which they doe make â—â—pâ—â—sse remeÌ„brance of some Saints Saintâ—s And afterwards by little little in stâ—ede of y simple coÌ„mmoration which is done of y Saincts Sanctes they haue begun to giue vnto euery one of 〈◊〉 his Masse al whelly insomuch y there is neither Saynt nor Sayntes but hath one that they do cal vpon it in steed of God vnto whom y Priests haue not giuen some occupacion office for to helpe aide God in so many affaires And after y sathan hath so well augmented his stuffe vnder y title of Martyrs of their CeÌ„memorations to y ende y nothing should remaine but y it should be ful of â—dolatry superstition he hath also louÌ„d y meanes to make mé muse after y are dead after an other manner For to make them al to be worshiped as Saincts he could not Also he knew very wel y after the damned men wil not much traualic nor bestowe any cost And therfore he hath sound a third order Hillarius There doth lacke but one but y ther should be as many as of y orders of the beggers But they haue it already For y Limbe is for y fourth order Theophilus Therfore hath he begunne in a luckey howre ye a sithens y time of Augustin to forge the Purgatory although y theÌ„ it was not receiued nor allowed as an article of faith but they disputed only as of an opinion which hath some colour shew For although y S. Augustin moued y questioÌ„ touched some thing y matter yet neuerthelesse he hath determined or concluded nothing for certein but rather to y contrary He hath writteÌ„ y ther were some which did thinke that there was a certeine fire of
other after him insomuch that they haue begun to apply the supper for to comfort the dead and it seemeth that those for whom they do make commemoration do no lesse participate then those which do there communicate in their name But yet they haue not holden themselues to tâ—at but are fallen into another error more importable altogether to tourne vpside downe and ouerthrow the institution of the supper and haue defouned it insomuche that it séemeth nothing at all like to the communion that the Saints haue with Iesus Christ and amongst them but it was altogether like vnto an excommunication For at the beginning when that the Christians did begin to communicate at the supper for the dead that was no lesse permitted to the lay people and vnto euery one of the christians as to the ministers of y church vntil such time as the supper hath takeÌ„ the name of Masse the which is not so auncient as the Papists woulde affirme Lusebius Wilt thou deny that Sainct Iames the Apostle hath not ordeined it and songe it as the decretall witnesseth Theophilus It is very nóedefull that a lyer haue a good memory or otherwise he shall oft be taken in a trap How shall they which are of diuers opinions among you accord touching that point For the one saith that Sainct Peter did sing the first Masse in Antioch An other the contrary that Saint Iames did sing it in Hrerusalem Others would refer it vnto Basil the great If they did vnderstand and meane by the Masse the supper I will not altogether gain sâ—y them For I doubt not but that those there haue truely celebrated the supper following the example of Iesus Christ their master But read all the bookes of the true seruants of God which haue bene sithens Moses vnto the time of Gregory the great who hath reigned almoste about seuen or eight hunoreth yeres after the death of Iesus Christ and afterwards tell mee if euer thou hast sound the name of Masse except it be in some wicked corrupted â—ooke or that it is falsely mutulod with the name of good auncient Doctors or if it be at some time founde it is very seldome and in an other signification and manner then it is now vsed But the name is but a small thing if wee doe accorde in the principall thing Although it were so that y name of the Masse shoulde be very auncient and that it is oftentimes found in the bookes of the auncient Doctors notwithstanding it followeth not therefore that theyr Masse was lyke vnto yours at this present For how much might one haue added vnto it sithence the tyme of the Apostles if it had bene in the Church sith that ye do yet dayly adde vnto it and ye neuer haue done Eusebius That same is done for the honestie and reuerence of the Sacrament and for his solempnitie and moreouer to bewrifie it And therefore thou deceauest thy selfe in that thou thinkest that there is contradiction amongst vs For we do not vnderstande or meane that saint Iames or Saint Peter or any other to haue instituted the Masse then Iesus Christe him selfe the whiche afterwardes his disciples did beginne to ordeine and bewtyfie it as wee haue at this present and consequently the other vntil this present hore Theophilus Sainct Paul was the chiefest of the Apostles and yet he came after Sainct Peter Sainct Iames but he did not teache or learne the Corinthians suche apish trickes when hoe declared vnto them how they ought to celebrate the Lordes supper but doth protest that hee will adde nothinge vnto it nor diminishe anye thinge but that hee will giue it them in the same fourme as hée receyued it of his Master Iesus Christe I doe not boeléeue that Sainct Iames nor Sainct Peter haue done otherwise nor all their compaigmons And you canne no better confounde your selfe they in excusinge your selfe as you doe For at the leaste wife by that you doe confesse you doe witnesse that you haue not the Masse suche as yee haue neither of Iesus Christe nor of his Apostles nor of the primitiue Churche but that it is of so many diuers poeces that one can not know the colour of the first cloth Hillarius Thou canst no better compare it then to a beggers cloake to which euery one hath set to a péece which is so be garded and patched that there is not one péece séene in that forme and fashion as it was first made But how can you tell who made it It is not yet made nor ended For you doe adde vnto it dayly and it shall not bée ended perfected at the ende of the world if other workmen then you doe not put to their handes Yet neruertheles if thou haddest heard Theophilus a sermon that a Curate made vnto his Parishyoners whiche is not very farre from this place peraduenture thou wouldest speake otherwise Theophilus Hee must bring foorth better reasons for to make mee to chaunge my speache then anye coulde bring foorth yet Hillarius Thou mayst say that there was neuer a more subtiller question alledged in Sorbonne he exhorted his parishioners to offer and paye well their tithes And the better to stirie them forward to doe the same hee proponed vnto them the example of Abell and Caine saying Take yee heede you doe not as that cursed Caine did who would not pay his tithes nor go to Masse but fellow the good example of Abell who payd his tythes willingly and alwayes of the best and fayrest and hee neuer sayled to heare Masse euery day If it bee so the Masse is more auncient then thou sayest that it is Theophilus Peraduenture it is with the priests as it was with the Aegiptians who did glory somuch of their auntiquitie and did affirme that it was tenne thousand yeares that they had bene in the worlde And when they sayd it it was not two thousand yeres that the world was created Hillarius It must needes be then that they were before the creation of the world at the leasle fiue or six thousand yeres Peraduenture they were created Arcadins whome the Poets doe write to haue bene horne before the Moone Eusebius That is not the first sable that thou hast forged for to mocke and iest at the priests Hillarius I doe assure thee without lying one word that a Commissarie tolde it me who sayd vppon his faith that he himselfe hath hearde him béeinge at the Masse in which that Sermon was made at the Laudes tune in the midst of the same when the Priest was come to the Offertorie and that same is not chaunced farre hence For that partie played his part héere harde by in the holy popish grounde in which they doe yet singe Masse And notwythstandinge that that Commissary dwelleth in that holy grounde yet neuerthelesse he was estonished of that Sermon insomuch that as he tolde mée hee went vnto the Priest and sayde vnto him I cannot well vnderstande that
one should affirme nothing And alledgeth the sentence of Seneca sayinge Thou oughtest to affirme nothing of vncerteyne thinges but keepe thy iudgement inoerteyne Also Tertulian propounded not the same but as an aduise not as a biffinitiue sentence and an article of faith Yet neuerthelesse although that hee sayd it that sentence serueth me for to shewe vnto thee that it was no question in Tertulians tyme of Purgatorye after the manner as you haue taken it For hee putteth but one place indifferently for all the elect and children of Abraham which haue bene and shall bee vntill the latter resurrection It well appeareth that hee was of opinion that they were not yet in the celestiall habitations and chiefest felicitie but yet neuerthelesse he assigneth vnto them Abrahams bosome in which all the soules of the faythfull do rest generally without putting any difference betweene those of the auncient fathers and ours nor making mention of paine nor any Purgatory In like manner Ireneus who was next the tyme of the Apostles is not of an opinion very much contrary and differing For notwythstanding that he assigned vnto the soules of all the Disciples of Iesus Christ and the true faythfull an inuysible place whiche is appointed and determyned for them of God in which they shall continue and abyde vntyll the resurrection the which they do looke for Yet neuerthelesse hée assigned but one place for all the Christians the which hee called Disciples of Iesus Christe And bée sayth not that some shall be in paine and other some at rest but hée putteth them there vppon a condition and hée assigneth vnto all no other paine but the taryinge and looking for the resurrection saying that the Disciple is not aboue the Master and that as Iesus Christ is not by and by rysen after his death but taryed the time that was appointed him of God his Father so must hys Disciples tarye for theirs as hée hath ordeyned them It is very true that in the booke which is attributed vnto Sainct Clement it seemeth that hee woulde putte a certeyne kinde of Purgatorye but althoughe the booke were of great authoritie yet neuerthelesse it woulde serue for nothinge for the Priestes Purgatorye For althoughe that hee putteth a certeyne difference betweene the most perfectest seruaunts of God and the others whiche haue not nor could not entyrelye accomplishe the rule of ryghteousnesse but haue yet some mallice remayning in theire fleshe yet hee assigned no paine vnto those Although that hee thinketh that the others are in more greater glory but saith that their soules are kept in goodly pleasaunt and ioyfull regyons and countreys that in the resurrection of the dead when they shall haue receyued theire bodyes and that they re resolution shall bee purged they maye come vnto eternall lyfe Beholde his owne woordes the which he recited as spoken of Sainct Peter vnto Saint Clement But there is no appearaunce that Saincte Peter hath holden those woordes whiche were attributed to him in that booke nor that Sainct Clement hath wrytten them althoughe that the booke is intituled in his name For howe manye propositions be there altogether contrarye vnto the doctrine of Saincte Peter and of all the Apostles But put the case that the booke were verye auucient and of the Authour to whome they attribute it if it be not canonised nor of the Apostolicall authoritie and whiche is more he putteth no Purgatorye in whiche there is pame and torment And when thou wouldest conclude by those woordes that there should be some manner of Purgatorye I wyll vanquishe and ouercome thee by hymselfe eyther that there is none or else that it is for all men And that there is no man so holye but that he must be purged in the same For there was neuer any so iuste and righteous which hath fulfilled and perfected the rule of righteousnesse which hath bene without sinne which hath not prayed with all the Saints accordinge to the witnesse of Dauid for his unquitye and sayth pardon our sinnes and in whome one could not finde inoughe for to purge yea after this lyfe excepte he had anye other purgation then that whiche is made by the bloude of Iesus Christe But although there were none other reasons for to proue that the suffrages for the deade and the Purgatorye are found out and deuised by mans inuentions then the diuersitie of opinions of those whiche haue written and spoken of it yet the argument is verye stronge for they doe propounde the doctrine so vncerteyne that one cannot make any resolution and a greate deale lesse then of the opinions of the Philosophers but doe leaue alwayes the conscience uncerteyne agaynst the nature of the woorde of God whiche alwayes is certeine and cléere Hillarius Me thincketh that I doe sée them holde so theire pro contra that they would make of the Theology an Academia in which one may dispute probably on both sides without giuing any certeine resolution but leaue all thinges in doubt For what foundation hath all that which they doe affirme and saye but vppon fables and mans opinions The which wee may as surely deny as they to affirme them yea by more iuste reason For wee haue more Scripture for to tell them the contrary then they haue of apparaunt reasons for to proue that which they affirme for they are Doctors of which the Apostle speaketh off which doe not vnderstande that which they speake nor which they teach and affirme Theophilus If they were so modest and reasonable as the Philosophers Academians they should not bee so much to bee despysed and blamed There is no doubt but that it is required that wee bee assured in the doctrine of the fayth and religion For there can bee no fayth where there is but opinions wythout certeyne perswasion Wherefore the Theologians haue not so lawful and iust excuse as the Achademians For when the question is but of humaine and naturall thinges it is not so greate a daunger to follow the opinions of men and to abide in doubt But when it is a question of fayth and religion it must bee that the conscience bee assured the whiche it cannot bee but by the certeyne worde of god Now wee doe cleerely see that in such matters they goe not but by coniectures and presumptions and euerye one of them sayth and speaketh that which commeth in his fantasie But if they doe that but amongest themselues by manner of disputation as the Academians dyd and after the manner as sainct Augustine did put foorth the question of purgatorye without affirming it as an article of sayth wée would let them dispute as longe as they will. But behold that which is worse they woulde that theire opinions should bée receyued and allowed as oracles and reuelations descended from heauen and they pronounce and giue their sentence with more greater authoritie then if they dyd speake of the pure woord of God and do compell the
that he was not worthy to be taken for a good souldier For a good champion must know to doo all thinges and that he must bée found amongest the blowes and in the skirmishes and alaromes not onely at the retraict and to receiue wages He dispised the simplicitie of the holy Scripture and calleth the Theology inferiour and base and would forge and inuent for vs a metaphisicall Theology Hillarius Also peraduenture he would by the same as wel extract the fifth essence of the holy Scriptures as the Alcumists do of mettals At the least I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphisicall Theology as of the Alcumy which hath a faire shew to be of great value but it consumeth away into smoke He speaketh neuertheles against the Purgatory of Priestes Wherefore I am abashed of that which I haue heard spoken that at this present he endeuoureth himselfe to set it vpp againe in that poore towne of Metz y which he is gone to trouble when he vnderstood that Iesus Christ would raigne there But I greatly doubt that the kitchin constraineth him to the same For otherwise the harâ—th woulde be colde But hée may as well doe that as to be angry pleased againe and so many times to chaunge and rechaunge his coate Theophilus We may well make him such a monster as Eusebius Cesariensis did make of the Philosopher Archesilaus in his bookes of the preparation of the Gospell and to compare it to him of whom he writeth in these words They sayd of him that as touchinge his fore partes hée was Plato and as to the hinder partes Pyrro the middle Diodorus For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato thorow the subtilties and sophistries of the Philosopher Diodorus and by the subtile disputations of Pyrrho and now saying this by and by that he was easily rolled and lead now héere and now there as a man not knowing any thing and hauinge no rest And yet neuerthelesse he séemeth thorow the shadow of eloquence that he knoweth much he was neuer in that minde y he would say twice one thing and that hee woulde abide firme and steedfast in one opinion For hée estéemed not a man to be ingenious and wittie which preserued continued in one matter and doctrine And therefore he was called a cauiller sophister and troubler which knew nothing and would not y others should perceiue any thing He troubled euery one thorow his sophistries was as the serpent called Hydra which hath seauen heads But he cutteth them off with his owne swoord speaking agaynst gainsaying his owne Doctrine denying that whiche hee hath affirmed and destroyinge that whiche hee before hath buylded Hillarius It is impossible to painte him out better For he is as a Gerion with thrée bodies He is a Papist an Euangelist and a Lutherian He is a Sophister and a Sorbonist and yet he would be accompted for a faithfull and a Christian and holdeth himselfe neither to the one nor yet to the other Hydra had neuer so many heads as hée hath of opinions contrary the one to the other and hée néeded none other Hercules for to cut them off then himselfe For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to speake as vnto the wicked spiriâ—es is a Hercules sufficient inough for to vanquish the false doctrine that he now mainteineth Theophilus By the same thou maist know the studye of Sathan and how many wayes he transfigureth himselfe into an Angell of light and what is the nature of the false Prophets God by all his Prophets Apostles hath commended to vs the faith in him and the loue towardes the liuing without making any mention y we shuld haue care of the dead The Diuell to the contrarye by his false Prophetes and Apostles endeuoureth himselfe with all his power to drawe vs from the fayth vnto vayne Ceremonies and from the care that wée ought to haue of the liuinge and of the poore members of IESUS CHRIST which with vs doe suffer want and indigence for to make vs staye after the deade They bring them meat and drinke and suffer the poore Christian bretheren which are round about them to dye for hunger This miserable Doctor perceiuing that he could not ther where he was maintein the Purgatory of y Priests and their broiling of soules be would set vp a new Purgatory for the body But when he perceiued that he could not bring it about he is retourned to cary a coale to the same of the Priests for to heate it againe Wherein he manifestly declareth what faith and conscience he hath how much one ought to trust to his doctrine Hillarius Mée thinketh that he should haue no lesse appearance to build a Purgatory for the body then the Priestes to haue builded one for the soules For if there be any reason wherefore the soules ought to suffer for their sinnes after that man is dead me thinketh that the body ought not to bée quit and frée but that he hath more merited it bicause that he was the occasion thorow his flesh and the instrument for to make the soulé to sinne Wherefore if you thincke Eusebius that God should be vniust as thou hast alledged if he doe not punish the soules of the sinners in Purgatory he should be no lesse if he doe not punish the bodyes in lyke manner which haue ben alwayes companions instruments to the soules in all the sinnes that they haue committed And therefore God wil not onely punish the soules of the reprobate in hel fire but the bodies also euen as be will glorifie the elect in body and soule in the resurrection of the Iustes Theophilus Also this good Doctor would giue vs to vnderstand sithence y he hath entred into that dreaming that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead were for the bodyes and for their resurrection and not for the soules and condempneth the Priestes and their Purgatory and be made no doubt to saye that we must pray for the Saintes for Saint Peter S. Paul and the others in such sence as he vnderstandeth euen as it hath bene touched Thomas I doe vnderstand well of whom you speake I remember that at the disputation which was holden at Lausanne he spake cléerely not onely against the Purgatory of Priestes but also against the transubstanciacion and corporall presence of Iesus Christ in the hoast Theophilus It is true but in the meane time thou takest no héede of the subtiltie of Sathan and by what means he would be serued of that Sorbonist doctors Bicause y Sathan did sée those errors to be already too much vncouered and opened that hée had no more hope to vphold them chiefely in those Churches héere aboutes hée hath chosen this instrument for to set foorth that opinion the which could not serue to any edification but for to trouble the Church chiefly in this time
greatest â—othsmiths y euer was in the world For ther was neuer none as farre as I can see which hath made and counterfaited more keyes nor which hath made them to agrée better to all locks Hillarius The experience doth witnesse it Theophilus I do think yet vpon an other reason against y of Eusebius If thou wilt limit y ministry of Saint Peter and of the Apostles within the compasse of heauen and wilt not suffer their power to bée stretched foorth euen to the confins and ende of Purgatorye at the least thou shalt not denye mée but that there be some Popes Cardinalls Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes in Purgatory 〈◊〉 thou wilt say y theâ— do â—o all straight way into paradise or into 〈◊〉 Now if they be in Purgatory wherefore â—â—e ye not suffer them to haue that office in the places where they are present Eusebius Bicause for that they are sinners as others are and subiect vnto one iudgement they are of the same condition as the others and they cannot giue them that whereoff they themselues haue néede and cannot haue it for them Furthermore as soone as they are dead they are depriued from that office Hillarius I haue two reasons for to beate downe thy aunswere The first is that I am abashed that the Pope and his doe attribute vnto themselues the power to pardon all sinnes how great and wicked soeuer they bée yea all Sodomy and if néede hée the sinne against the holy Ghost notwithstanding that it bée irrâ—missible and doe giue bulâ— and pardons for all so that one doe bring them money and that they haue also power to pardon the veâ—â—all sinnes in Purgatory For according to your own doctrine none are there deteined and kept but for the veniall sinnes For the mortall sinnes haue no purgation in the other world but they must bee punished in hell And as to that that thou sayest that they are sinners and subiect to the same paines in Purgatory so are they in this worlde and leaue not off therefore to absolue themselues the one to the other although they shoulde haue killed Father and Mother and so make themselues as white as the Collyers Furthermore you doe call the impression of your Creame and holy Oile with whiche you doe anointe the Pristes when they doe take their orders Charector indelibilis that is to saye a marke and a signe which cannot be put out nor defaced If it be so the Pâ—iestes dooe abide and remaine alwayes Pristes although they be dead For you will not confesse that that impression and marke is onely done vnto the bodye But you doe affirme that it penitrateth and pearceth euen to the soule of which it can neuer be defaced nor abolyshed yet neuerthelesse thou knowest better then I. Theophilus They doe attribute vnto it such vertue that they doe affirme for certâ—ine that a prâ—est notwithstanding that he be an heriticke or an apostate or desgraded yet neuerthelesse be shall haue power alwayes to consecrate the body of God as well as others if he doe pronounce the sacramentall wordes vppon the hoast with the intencion to consecrate Hillarius Beholde yet to confirme better my purpose I do not doubt for my parte but that that Character is the marke wherewith is marked the conscience of those which shall giue héede vnto spirits of errour and deuilish doctrine and which are Apostates of the faith according to the prophecie of saint Paul. That is the marke of the great whore of Babylon without which one cannot sell nor buy nor haue any place in the Popish Church That is a marke cleane contrary vnto that which the Angell printed in the foreheads of the elect of god Nowe sith that the Apostles of Iesus Christ and the true bishoppes and priests which by them were ordayned haue not had that Cautor that is to say Marke I had thought to haue said Charecter I am not abashed if they haue not such power in the other worlde as the Pope hath in the same and in this But it is an other thing of him and of his which do departe out of this worlde with this Cauter I doe beguile my selfe alwayes I doe say with that Charâ—â—ter which they do beare alwayes with them Wherfore they ought to haue no lesser power there then here And y same I wil proue by y example of Frier Rogers a Câ—rdelier which is recyted in the booke of the conformities of saint Fraunces It is there written that after that he was deade he appeared vnto a certeine woman who confessed vnto him all hir sinnes hée gaue hir obsolution If hâ— being deade had the power to come to heare the confession of the lyuing and to absolue them wherefore shall not his other compagnions béeinge deade haue and chiefely the Popes and Byshoppes who haue ordained them and confirmed them as much power among the dead Furthermore if according to the witnesse of your Doctors others may satisfie for vs not onely during our lyfe but also after that we be dead wherfore cannot we after that we be dead satisfie for our selues and to cause Masses to be song in Purgatory sith that there are so many Priest's Popes and Bishops for to doe it What thinkest thou Thomas Thomas Thou sayest well But I thinke that they cannot haue their hoasts and singing cakes Hillarius Yet they had neuerthelesse fire inough for to séethe or bake their gods Thomas If it be so as they say there is too much And therefore I thinke that they cannot haue hoasts chalyces aulters nor vestements For the fire will schorch and consume it all Hillarius Thou makest a good reason But by that compt how can the bulls and pardons of the Pope be kept and preserued from the fire which are sent thether by hole cart loades which some do cause to be buried with them for to cary them thether sith that they are but paper and parchment Asmuch may we say of the rule and habite of Saint Fraunces What sayest thou Theophilus Theophilus There is yet an other poynt If they will say that those which are in Purgatory can no more merite neyther for themselues nor for others they cannot say the lyke without speaking agaynst the doctrine which they haue giuen vs of the saints which are in Paradise For they doe affirme that they pray vnto God for vs that they are our intercessors aduocates towards him and that in séeing God which séeth all things they doe see all as in a Mirrour or looking glasse If they doe pray for vs which are yet in this lyfe bicause of the great loue and charitie that they haue towards vs wherefore do they not also willyngly pray for their bretheren deteyned and kept in the fire of Purgatory For they shoulde haue a greate deale more reason to doe that if they had anye care or charge of menne And that for manye causes First that the estate and condition of
that power but of him Wherefore one might rightly say of him The Lord the God of Gods. For there is not a Priest of how smal learning soeuâ—r he be which according to their doctrine but dareth to attribute vnto himselfe the power to make Gods. For which I will haue none other witnesse but their booke intituled Stella clericorum in which are written such woordes O howe venerable is the dignitie of the Priests betwéene whose handes the sonne of God is incarnate as in the wombe of the Virgin And afterwardes speakingâ—â—n the person of the Priest Hee which hath created mée hath giuen me power to create him Hée which hath created me without mée is created by the meanes of mée Afterwardes hée concludeth sith then that the Priest is of so greate a dignitie that hée is the creator and maker of his creator and of euery creature it is not conuenient to loose or damne him They doâ— finde it inconuenient that God should dampâ—e the priests bicause that they are the creators of hun And yet neuerthelesse the popes may wel condempne the popes yea out of this world sithence that they are before God their souereigne Iudge which are not onely priests but which is more doe make the priests Doest thou finde this straunge Thomas Thomas To speake the truth those Gods doe handle very euill the one the other Hillarius I doubt not but that which pope Stephen hath done vnto Formosus doth not séeme straunge vnto thée But pope Sergius the third hath done vnto him worse Thomas Then that poore soule Formosus was most vnhappy after his death They haue done against the prouerbe which forbiddeth to fight with the dead Hillarius Thou maist haue well sayd it if thou hadst heard the history all out The crueltie of L. Sylla against Marius was not so great But I thincke neuerthelesse but that those popes haue takeÌ„ their patron vpon him For so did he cause Marius to be taken out of y earth after y he was dead to be auenged of him And Sylla fearing that one should not doe to him the like after he was dead commaunded that his body should be burned For vntill his time the famelly of which he came off accustomed to bury the bodyes of the dead and had not as yet burned them as others did But for to retourne vnto Sergius thou must vnderstande First that he hath so reproued all the actes of Formosus that those whom Formosus did make priestes shoulde retourne againe to take their orders of him iudging those vnworthy to be priests whom Formosus had made if they did not the same And not being content to haue done that dishonour vnto Formosus after his death caused his body to be taken out of the sepulchre againe and did not onely cut off the fingers or the hand as Stephen his predecessor did but did cut of his head as a malefactor euen so as though he were a liue Afterwardes did cast the body into the stud â—yber as vnworthy of buriall and humaine honour â—hou canst not now denie Theophilus but that the popes haue power â—oth ouer the Gods and ouer the quick and the dead And for more greater confirmation hereoff they haue their Canons which do giue vnto them power to iudge not onely the quicke but also ouer the dead and to excommunicate accurse the hereticks but which to more Pope Boniface hath better declared his diuine power against S. Harman whose body and bones he caused to bee digged vp whoÌ„ those of Ferrara haue honoured accompted for a Saint already the space of xx yeares condempned him for an heretick and burned him As some say that they haue also done y like of wikchf who neuertheles was of better learning theÌ„ his aduersaries But that same is alwaies common to all the papistical sect as de Roma the defiler of the faith hath well confirmed it those yeares past in two poore faithfull Christians at Aix in Prouence Hée hath stocked imprisoned them so much hath so scorched and burned their feete anckles within their bootes which he filled with grease and so putting to fire that those poore people martyrs of Iesus Christ could not tary the time to be altogether burned but they died whilest that he was absent were buried by y hangmaÌ„ in vnhallowed ground bicause that they were accompted by them for heretickes Yet neuerthelesse that cruel tyrant de Roma could not be contented with all that but was very angry bicause they buried them caused theÌ„ to dig theÌ„ vp againe to burne the being dead sith y he could not burne theÌ„ being aliue On y contrary euen as Boniface hath caused this S. Haâ—man to be digged vp to be condemned for an hereticke buâ—ned him who neuerthelesse was accoÌ„pted for a Saintâ— he hath also canonised S. Lewes who was of y bloud roial who as some men say was professed of y order of S. Fraunces Also in like manner pope Felix Gregory haue ordeined that one should celebrate yearely feasts sacrifices in y memory of y martyrs Now what other thing is y but to iudge theÌ„ saints to deify them But to y end y euery one do not attribute vnto themselues the power to make Gods as the popes that euery one do not honor him y coÌ„meth in their fantasy Pope Alexander y third hath ordeined y no man should be holden and accompted for a Saint and that no diuine honour shoulde be attributed vnto him except that he were first inrolled among the Saintes and canonised by the commaundement and ordinaunce of the Apostolical seate That commaundement and degrée is written in the decretals in the title of the reliques of Saints Sith then that he canoniseth and maketh Saintes afterwards when they are made he vnmaketh them it followeth then that he maketh and vnmaketh the Gods that he is Iudge both of the quicke and of the dead For all that is God vnto man to whom he giueth the honour due vnto god Now we cannot denie but that the superstitious and Idolaters do giue vnto their Saintes and vnto dead men the â—onor due vnto God alone Wherefore it followeth that they are their Gods as well as to the Idolaters those whom they haue accompted for Gods which neuerthelesse were dead men which haue ben canonised by the kings Princes and Senates and the coÌ„mon errour of the people euen as the pope the superstitious do yet vse at this day Sith then that the pope maketh and vnmaketh such Gods which are dead men and iudgeth condempneth and absolueth them it followeth then that he is the Iudge of the quicke the dead the which is also declared by the example of y Emperour Henry y fourth who was excoÌ„municated afterwards was put into a cruel prison in y citie of Liege by his proper and onely sonne in the which he was strangled and so as
to their nature for to render vnto God the honour which apperteyneth vnto him Euen so ought we to vnderstand of al other creatures which are all the liuely Images of God which declare vnto vs those meruailes and doe speake better hauing no mouth then the Images which haue mouthes and speake not and which crye not thorow their throate And therefore how many creatures may there be vnder the earth which do praise God in that manner And notwithstanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praise him in that sort as he is praised of the elect yet they are neuerthelesse constrained to praise glorifâ—e him against their wills and they cannot doe nor speake any thing which serueth not vnto his honour and glory Eusebius Sith that by thy expositions thou hast already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I haue against thee I will display at once that which remaineth behinde What wilt thou say vpon that other place taken from the same booke in which is spoken of the holy citie of the celestial Hierusalem after this maÌ„ner ther shal enter into it no vncleane thing To which agreeth that which is written in Esay This shal be called the holy way no vncleane person shall goe thorow it Theophilus What wilt thou that I should aunswere thée vppon the same There is none that will deny but that he must be purged from all his sinnes before he can come vnto the eternall lyfe For flesh and bloud cannot inherite the kingdome of god But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory but by the bloude of Iesus Christ by the which we are washed purified when thorow the word of god thorow faith our hearts are sprinkled Therefore sayd Iesus Christ vnto his disciples you are cleane bicause of the words which you haue heard We are purged when we obteine remission of our sinnes and that the Lorde forgetteth them not imputing them vnto vs and remembring them according to that which is written Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiuen whose sins are couered Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth no sinne Thomas I doe greatly feare Eusebius sith that thou art already come vnto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge For that is the ende of the new Testament and of all the canonicall Scripture Hillarius I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vs euen vnto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to sing his Requiescant in pace For I beleeue that he will dye héere and that hée shall passe no further Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement Purgatory and hell shal be all one But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldest haue proued in the Apocalips to be none other thing then those pondes of fire and brimstone in which the beast which hath engendered Purgatory is cast with hir false Prophets into the eternall bottomlesse pitte Theophilus What sayst thou Eusebius to the same Hast thou no more refuge Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether disconfited Eusebius I haue no more wherewith to reuenge me except I shew foorth that place of Saint Peter which witnesseth that the spirite of Iesus Christ preached vnto the spirites which were in prisen By the which prison I cannot vnderstand but Purgatory or the Lymbe At the leastwise it must bee that thou doest allowe the one or the other Theophilus That obiection commeth well to purpose for to aunswere also to the question of Thomas and to those which would haue a preaching of the Gospell in the other world Thomas I am very gladde that thou hast not forgotten it and that the occasion serueth so well Theophilus But before I will enter into it I will agayne admonish thee that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the estate of the dead besides that which the holy Scripture hath expressely reuealed vnto me Wherefore I do conclude that although it should be so that those estéeme it to be true yet neuertheles I shall not be of that opinion that any person should trust vnto it and that hée should leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde to seeke Iesus Christ sith that the Scripture doth not promise vnto vs cleerely any ether remedie nor any other preaching and reuelation for our saluation after this lyfe Therfore I would gladly allow in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory For notwithstanding that he did beleeue that in the same one might be purged from his sinnes yet neuerthelesse he sayth that it is most sure to gouerne himselfe so in this worlde that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other but to haue there his recourse and hope Thomas I am of thy opinion But expound vnto vs at the least the places that one may alleadge them to that purpose for to haue the intellygence thereoff Theophilus That which hath most shew is that which Eusebius hath touched in which is written that Christ hath once suffered for the sinnes the iust for the vniust for to bring vs to God and was killed as perteining to the flesh But was quickened in the spirite In which spirit he also went and preached vnto the spirites that were in prison which were in time passed disobedient when the long suffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of Noâ— c The other is by and by after where he saith that the wicked shall giue accompt vnto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should be iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before god in the spirite Behold two places after which many learned men haue much trauayled and haue expounded them many wayes Yet neuerthelesse it hath bene most commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented bicause that he speaketh of the spirits which were in prison or in the lower partes to whome Iesus Christ hath preached Those there haue vnderstanded by those spirits the soules of the auncient Fathers By the prison the Helles and the Lymbes in which they were deteined The others which are so affectioned after the Purgatory that there is not a place in all the Scripture which they endeauour not to wrest draw either wrongfully or ouerthwartly and haue taken that prison for Purgatory the spirits for the soules that are there But these héere haue lesse shew and doe put themselues more out of reason then the others Chiefely sith that there is none of the Auncients that I know not of those which haue beleeued the Purgatory that haue vnderstanded it after that manner and which haue alleadged it to that purpose Wherefore it is not needeful to aunswere them any further But for to come to the exposition of those places I will first aduertise you that there are