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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A83012	The confident questionist questioned: or, the examination of the doctrine delivered by Mr. Thomas Willes in certain queries. Published by Mr. Jeremiah Ives. Examined by counter-queries. By N.E. with a letter of Mr. Tho. Willes.	N. E.	1658 (1658)	Wing E18; Thomason E934_3; ESTC R207678	33,986	58

cast out by any Church Censures are not a Visible Church to whom belongs all the Ordinances 3 Did not hee himself acknowledge such as these are to be the matter of a Church though the former particular proves them actually a Church to use his own words Is it not then his duty either to convince them that they are not beleevers that they are scandalous by evident proofs from their lives which hee never did yea before hee knew them hee disclaimed them yea in a Book called Pills to PURGE Malignants c. hee unchristianly branded them with vile Names and this as hee confesseth before hee knew them O sad was this to come as an Embassador of Christ among them or else if hee cannot is it not his very great sin to see stones and timber fit for a spiritual building and not to build them up to be a Church of Christ much more must hee not bee accountable for plucking down and indeavouring not to leave one stone upon another in that which is already a Church of Christ 4 Or must hee not prove that some corruptions unchurch them Were not the Corinthians some carnall 1 Cor. 3.3 some proud 1 Cor. 4.18 did not some go to law before the unjust ch 6.1 were not some defrauders ch 6.8 some drunken ch 11.21 some unworthy receivers ch 11.27 28 29. some ignorant of God and of the resurrection 1 Cor. 15.34 35. yet the Corinthians were a Church for all this as Mr. Willes urged Thus some of the seven Churches of Asia were corrupt yet were stiled Churches still Rev. 3.14 15. some of the Church of Pergamos held the doctrine of Balaam and of the Nicolaitans Thyatira v. 20. suffered the woman Jezebel to seduce The Laodiceans were luke-war me c. 2 But if his Parishioners bee a Church I query whether doth hee separate from them as a Church or as corrupt If as a Church is it not an horrid schisme such as the Protestants justly plead not guilty of to the Papists or ought hee not to let this company of Visible Saints to enioy their own means and meeting-place that they may get to themselves a Minister that shall give them the Ordinances How dares hee in conscience hinder a Church of Christ from uniting and from enjoying his Ordinances which hee hath left for it How will hee answer it at the day of judgement before Christ Ought not his own Church as hee calleth them to have a meeting-place of their own and not to rob these of their liberty How durst hee thrust himself upon a flock to sheere the fleeces but will not be their Shepheard But if hee separate only from their corruptions to make your Query sound any thing ought hee not to shew his Parishioners that they bee guilty of such corruptions as made us separate from Rome The Papists worship Saints and Images and make more Mediatours than one These and more I can make evident upon proof can Mr. Brooks evidently prove his Parishioners to bee guilty of these or such like corruptions do you read of any that ever suffered so great a Church-punishment as being kept from the Ordinances is unless first there were conviction of a notorious scandal 2 Brotherly admonitions Matth. 18.15 16 17 18. 3 And a casting out by Church-Censures 1 Cor. 5. Againe could there have been any Corruptions in that Church but through his neglect For hath he not power upon evident conviction to keep back the scandalous I say upon evident conviction for God never intended his Ministers should search the hearts of men as to say they are formal and wicked and censure their hearts when they can evidently prove nothing from their lives Is it not likewise his duty to instruct the ignorant Is hee not bound in charity to judge all others to be true visible Christians How then can he plead that he separates from that Church because of her corruptions seeing it is his duty and in his power according to the Rules of the Gospel to have reformed it Will not these Schismes and separations lye heavie at his doore and yours Ought you not to cleare your selves to the world Query 34. Whether it hath not been common for those of your way to separate from the Papists and yet take their Tythes and to use your owne phrase sheer those lame and diseased Sheep which you have denied to admit into the Fold with you Counter-Query Are not Tythes setled in Parishes for the maintenance of those that take the care and charge of those Parishes Doth not therefore the Tythes belong to those of Master Willes his way that take this charge Doth Mr. Brookes doe thus Doth hee not declare that hee takes no more charge of the Parish as their Minister than of any other Doe those of Mr. Willes his way deny the Papists any thing that is their right and due Hath not the Church debarred them from communion with us Is it not equity then they should not deny their due Doth Master Brookes doe thus When were his Parishioners cut off from Church Communion how or by whom Have not those of Mr. Willes his way the consent of those Parishes they take the charge from whom they require their maintenance But hath not Mr. Brookes unworthily crowded in by might and yet never intended to take the charge for which the Tythes were intended Yea and hath he not troubled his Parishioners for the non-payment of them Query 35. If you say They might if they would reforme have communion with you I query then whether this very Objection that causeth you to exclude Papists be not the reason why Mr. Brooks refuseth scandalous Protestants and other prophane people viz. because they doe not reforme Counter-Query Wee doe say if they would reforme and turn Protestants that the Churches of England would have communion with them will Mr. Brookes say thus of his Parish Nay would it not be a rejoycing to many honest hearts if hee could make it manifest that he refuseth none but scandalous and prophane people and that because they are such and will not reforme Doth Mr. Brookes exclude the whole Parish because scandalous and prophane Is it not evident that they are counted prophane and excluded as Papists because they will not owne his Church and dis-own their owne Would hee not owne some of these very men and count them reformed ones if they would but owne his Schismatical way to whom hee never yet otherwise would tender the Ordinances Did ever Christ intend that his Ordinances should be tied up to Mr. Brookes his opinion How will you or this man excuse his conscience in this Query 36. If you shall deny this Succession and say That there was none and that it was lost then I query whether this be not a singular and private Opinion of your owne differing from the rest of your Brethren Counter-Query Don't you easily see by this time that we have no need to deny a Succession and that your Queries have been

The Confident Questionist Questioned OR The Examination of the DOCTRINE Delivered by Mr. THOMAS WILLES in certain QVERIES Published by Mr. Jeremiah Ives Examined by COUNTER-QUERIES By N. E. With a Letter of Mr. Tho. Willes Gal. 1.6 I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel 7 Which is not another but there bee some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ 8 But though wee or an Angel from heaven preach any other Gospel unto you then that which wee have preached unto you let him bee accursed 9 As wee said before so say I now again if any man preach any other Gospel unto you then that you have received let him bee accursed 2 Tim. 3.13 Evil men and seducers shall waxe worse and worse deceiving and being deceived 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of knowing of whom thou hast learned them LONDON Printed for Tho. Newberry and are to bee sold at his shop in Sweetings-Rents in Cornhil near the Exchange 1658. Reader IF thou art a Friend to the Truth probably thou hast been somewhat ere this grieved to see the Host of Israel routed and the Philistims to carry the sacred Ark into their Idol-Temple to see the Ministry so much shattered and uncircumcised ones to take the holy Gospel and dispense it after their own humane inventions Blessed be God that this Foundation-Truth is undertaken to be rescued and that by a worthy hand for thou if thou hast heard wilt say with many more that we have cause to bless God for that light and discovery of the truth there hath been and for that satisfaction that was given to many honest hearts I doubt not but by this time Mr. Ives his Queries have fallen into thy hands I shall not so far question thy judgement as to say that he hath staggered thee in the belief of what Mr. Willes hath delivered If he hath to settle thee who art too soon moved I have sent thee some Counter-Queries Judge and try and then I hope thou wilt blush at thy inconstancy And for a further settlement I advise thee to attend Mr. Willes his Lecture in Crooked-Lane But if thou art an enemy to the Truth I am confident thou hast sung many Iopaeans and hast triumphed before the victory 's got Should Mr. Brooks or his Church invite this man to be the Patron of their cause we might guess them miserably baffled and that they have too much inclination to his other Errors thou canst not expect that Mr. Willes by taking notice of these slight Queries should hinder his more serious discussion of this weighty point which hee hath undertaken in the foresaid Lecture Seriously and impartially Catechise the Questionist by the Questions a meaner hand hath prepared try if here is not enough to puzzle him Modesty forbids to say more I have printed a letter of Mr. Willes his for thy satisfaction in some things which I received for my own If I have mistook in any thing as a Christian forgive because not wilfull and learn not in any thing to attribute the weaknese of the Author to the cause I could wish that thou and I could prevail with Mr. Willes to publish his solid and serious Discourses concerning this subject that the enemies may bee confounded Christians established and directed the Truth vindicated seduced ones reduced For which blessed effect I should joyn with thee in prayer who am Thy Christian Brother N. E. The Coppy of a Letter to Mr. Willes Mr. Willes I Lately met with a Book of Mr. Ives that questions your confidence in the truth I judge him too bold if not worse seeing his grounds and warrant for it are so slight For truly my mean judgement is scarcely shaken much less routed by this assault I begge not therefore your Reply to recruit your Cause neither do I think any else do cry out for your help but those that are more affraid than hurt I only desire to bee informed of some private and personal transactions which hee hints and of some Expressions hee lays to your charge 1 In what sense you assert the baptizing of the children of wicked Parents Q. 40. I suppose you mean only of those that are Church-members and not cast out as having a visible right 2 I desire to know what were your own words concerning the fifth Monarchy men Q. 42. 3 Whether did you positively assert him to bee a Jesuit or not Q. 47. 4 And I pray give mee some brief account concerning your private discourse with him An Advertisement concerning these Particulars will bee satisfaction both to mee and to others If any thing shall appear in print in answer to the whole it will begge your Patronage of its cause your pardon of its weaknesse this only I further crave viz. that you will love and pray for him who is Your Friend and Servant N. E. The Answer I received to this Letter followeth THE Coppy of Mr. Willes his Letter Sir THe Book or printed Papers you speak of were sent to my hand from the Author himself who if you know him not was once a souldier is now by Trade a Chees-monger and for Sect an Anabaptist Hee came openly to oppose mee at my Lecture at Fish-street-hill whereby hee occasioned a very great disturbance which might have proved to his own peril But for the pacification of the tumult I openly declared to all the people that if any of them had any thing to object against the Doctrine by mee delivered if they would bee pleased to signifie their objections to mee in Word or Writing at any convenient time I would answer all that were material in my further prosecution of that subject at Michaels Crooked-lane Hereupon Mr. Ives with some others came unto mee pretending to desire satisfaction though as it afterwards appeared the intent was rather opposition The principal thing that Mr. Ives stuck upon was the Call of our first Reformers Two principles I propounded to him as the grounds of his satisfaction which were no other than what I had publickly delivered viz. 1 That Ministers in an ordinary way and case were to bee ordained by Ministers 2 That in a case of necessity where there were no Ministers to ordain fit persons might become Ministers without ordination For a positive Law gives place to necessity Mat. 12. 1-5 Both these hee owned and acknowledged to bee true before sundry witnesses and particularly declared his high esteem of the latter Hereupon I offered him satisfaction as to the call of our first Reformers after the prevalency of Popery in the Land For if hee would say the Popish Priests and Bishops were no Ministers of Christ and had no power to ordain then did the case of Necessity warrant the Call of our first Reformers for as much as then there was no such Ordination as hee would acknowledge valid to bee had But if hee should say