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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56167	A fvll reply to Certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government wherein the frivolousnesse, falseness, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, reselled : together with certaine briefe animadversions on Mr. Iohn Goodwins Theomachia, in justification of independency examined, and of the ecclesisticall jurisdiction and rights of Parliament, which he fights against / by William Prynne ...	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3967; ESTC R3868	34,873	26

you meane it of any other light that is truely such we blesse God for it and desire to walke brotherly and unanimously in it In the seventh he grants that the Law of Nature which instructs men to unite themselves into one Nationall State or civill Government doth likewise teach them to joine themselves into subject themselves unto one Nationall Church and to Nationall Synods Parliaments in point of church-government in which every particular man hath his Vote though not in proper person which hee objects is necessarie but I deny since all cannot possibly assemble yet in their deputies Knights Burgesses or selected Commissioners and though it bee t●ue that Christ hath not given Magistrates such absolute authority over mens consciences as bodies as you object yet hee hath enjoyned us to bee * subject to the higher powers and to every lawfull ordinance of man not repugnant to his Word EVEN FOR CONSCIENCE SAKE and THE LORDS SAKE too For my passage That there is no example of gathering independent Congregations not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Christian Faith unlesse derived from the private conventicles of Arrians Novatians Donatists and other Hereticks who yet w●re not independent among themselves it is not a bitter speech as you phrase it but a true one and onely bitter to you because undeniable For as it was the * common practice of those seducing Hereticks Sectaries to gather private Conventicles of their own and labour to draw other orthodox Christians from their proper Ministers to incorporate themselves into their private separated congregations as Historians informe us So no such practice of alluring and stealing away other Pastors sheep from their proper Shepheard who first coverted them to and edified them in the faith and grace of Christ can be produced but only in these Hereticks and Sectaries whose practice your Independents imitate As for those private conventicles as he phraseth them for which he saith I may blesse God that I was remembred in them with tears when others durst not name me as I do really blesse God for them and those who remembred me effectually in them so I dare not stile them Conventicles in an ill sense since not † such by Law being only lawfull Assemblies of private Christians to seek unto God by prayer fasting upon extraordinary occasions which all good Christians cannot but approve But all these meetings were farre from being then stiled reputed Independent Churches or having any affinity with them so as they make nothing for his cause 8. To the eighth Quere he gives a negative Answer First in generall next in particular to some instances First he grants that there was a Nationall Church yea Nationall assemblies Parliaments determining church-affaires of the Jewes but these saith he cannot be a pattern for us now because the covenant of the Gospell is not made with any one particular Nation as with the Jewes but to all Nations that embrace the Gospel and beleeve in Christ you have no promise nor prophesie of any Nation to be holy to God but the Jewes Nation when they shall bee called againe To which I reply first That Independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne Covenant made betwixt God and men to walke in the wayes of God c. but onely * in the old Testament and Church of the Israelites and that no private congregationall but publ●…ke Nationall covenant prescribed by the supreme temporall Magistrate and Assembly not by the Priests or private Synagogues yea the principall precepts presidents for publike or private fasts sanctifying the Sabbath c. you likewise derive from the old Testament and that Church why then should not their Nationall Church be a pattern for us and you to imitate as well as their Nationall covenant fasting sabbath-keeping the Church of God being all one as it is a Church both under the old Teastament and new and the pattern of it under the Law a better pesident for the Church under the Gospel of which it was a type and fore-runner then the pattern of the Tabernacle shewed in the Mount so frequent in your Lips and Books a president for your Independent Modell to which it hath no analogy 2. This reason is most absurd and false the Covenant of the Gospel extending not onely to particular persons but to * all Nations and people whatsoever who are both prophesied and promised to become Christs own inheritance possession people spouse church and to be an HOLY NATION A PECVLIAR PEOPLE c. to the Lord in infinite Texts both of the old and new Testament which I wonder the Respondent should either not see or forget being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his Independent platforme which few or none can yet espy in Scripture History or Politiques 2. He addes that I cannot sh●…w any Nation every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church which is Christs body unlesse I will take in Drunkards Whore-masters c. to be members of a church whereas the Word saith they must be visible Saints and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall church I answer that I dare not be wiser then my Master Christ who informes me that there will and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth be it Nationall parochiall presbyteriall or congregationall * goats among the sheep chaffe among the wheat which must grow together ●…ill the harvest at the end of the world to wit the day of judgment good fish mixed with the bad in the churches Net 2. I finde a a Judas a Devill among the Apostles many b grosse sinners idolaters and corruptions in the Jewish church many abuses Epicures Drunkards Wh●…re-masters L bertines unclean●… persons and false Teachers in the churches of Galatla Ephesus Colosse Pergamus Smyrna Thyatira and Laodicea yet the Scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of Christ and reputes such members though corrupt ones of those Churches who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season after they are baptized and professe the Christian faith nor did any separate from these churches though they had some corruptions and evill members For you therefore to separate from and unchurch such Nationall or Parochial churches which have some such members in them is to unchurch all churches both in the old the new Testament and world it self yea your own churches too 3. The Scripture is expresse d that many are called but few chosen and saved that all must be compelled to come into the church though they want the wedding-garment There never was nor shall be here on earth any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected Saints without any mixture of Reprobates such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven I am sure you can gather none such on earth 4. Are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches

20. c. 3. 1. 1 Pet. 2. 2. Heb. 5. 12 13 14. 1 Ioh. 2. 11. to 15. Ephes. 4. 15. 16 † 1 Tim. 3 6. † Ezek. 16. 13. * Rom. 13. 1 to 7. 1 Tim 2 1 2 3. Tit 3. 1 1 Pet. 1. 2. to 24 c. 3. 1. 1 Cor. 7. 1 to 18. Eph. 5. 22 23. c. 6. 1. to 10. Col. 3. 18 to 25. † See my Catalogue c. The unbishoping of Timothy and Titus A Breviate and Antipathy of the English Lordly Prelacy † See my humble Remonstrance against Ship-money * In his Sermon on Feb. 25 * Deut. 12. 8. Judges 〈◊〉 6. r. 21. 25. † Yea never more dangerous errours ref●…ted suppressed then in the 4. first general Councels and some Synods since as that of Dort and other Protestant Synods See the Harmony of confession●…s Where therefore they determine rightly you must submit unto them where they confirm apparent dangerous errours there you may vary from them when proved such * These are the true grounds of all s●…rations Esa 65. 5. Luk. 18. 10 to 16. lude 18. 19. witnesses the Novatians Dunatists of old The severall orders of Monks Nuns Erem●…s Anchorites in the Church of Rome and their new order of Jesuits each of them pre●…nding more sanctity and strictnesse then another and so severing in their different orders habits Mon●… rules covenants one from another † Mr Goodwins Theomachia p 24 25. The Reply of two of the Brethren pas●… * Epistle to the Reader p g. 11. 33. 44. to 52. b Page 18. 22. 52. and else Gamaliell Himselfe no Apostle nor Christian from whose words you yet take your text is Gospell was not altogether of this opinion 1. * Sec Epiphanius Basil Augustine and all the Bookes of or against any Hereticks and Sectaries * Matth. 4 6. * Mat. 24. 11. 23. to 27. c. 7. 15. 2 Cor. 11 13 14 15. Ephes. 4. 14. 2 Thes. 2. 9. 10 Rev. 13. 2. to ●…8 2 Ioh. 10. 〈◊〉 f Gal. 2. 4. to 18 * Rom. 19. 15 16 26. h See Iustinian Cod. l. 〈◊〉 Tit. 8. 1. Eliz. c. 2. 35. Eliz. c. 1. 2. 2 i Page 21. k See the London Ministers Petition against it 1 l See 1 Cor. 11. 16. c 10. 32. 33. m See p. 30. to 52. 2 n p. 3 4. 11. 12. p Ezra I. 1. to the end c. 4 17. to 24. c. 6. 2. to 17. c. 7. 12. to 28. Neh 2. 1. to 27. 2 Chron. 36. 22 23. Isay 44. 28. Dan. 3. 29. c. 6. 25 26 27. Ionah 3. 5 6 7. r Acts 24 5. 26 27 28. 2 Tim. 4. 10. 17. s 1 Tim. 2. 1 2. 3. Rom. 13. 1. to 7. Tit 3. 1 t Matt. 10. 17 18. 21. c. 26 27. Amos 13. 9. c. 15. Acts 4. 1. to 24. c. 5. 17. to 4. c. 6. 12 13. c. 9. 1 2. 3. c. 11. 2 3 4. c. 16. 10. to 40. c. 18. 12. q Tim. 2. 1 Ier. 29. 7. v Page 38. 10 40. x Pag. 30. 31 y Amos 3. 3. * Esa. 9. 6. See my twelve Questions p. 7 8. Pag. 48 49 50. This he more fully expressed in a Sermon in February last Note Gamaliell your Text never taught you any such Anti-Parliamentary Doctrine Note * The people having power to elect Princes Magistrates Ministers Parliaments Synods have likewise authority ●…o nominate such who by the rule of Gods Word may limit these particulars though not by their owne bare authority without or against the Word † Every Magistrate Parliament and Synod have power to declare and en jo●…n what is necessary to be beleeved practised by or according to Gods Word not without or contrary to it a See my Appendix to the soveraigne power of Parliaments and Kingdomes p. 122. to 131. Twelve considerable Queries p. 4 5. Independency examined p. 2 11 12. b Page 25 26. c Num. 22. 35 c. 23 24. 1 Sam. 10. Act. 5. 34. to 40. Joh. 11. 49 to 53. d Ioh. 6. 70 71 Mar. 6. 7. to 14. e Matth. 5. 1. c. 13. 1 2. c. 8. 18. c. 9. 36. c. 14 14 19 c. 11. 32 33. c. 21 8 9 10. Luk. 6. 17 19. c. 8. 44 45. Joh. 6. 2 5. Mar. 12. 12 37. Luk. 13 17. c. 18. 43. c. 21. 38. c. 22. 1. Joh. 7 40. 43. c. c. 8. 2. Act. 2. 47. * This he confessed and it appeared by a writing before the Committee of plundered Ministers * Or as well ashimselfe extracts many spirituall Doctrines out of Gamaliels secular speech in these very sermons * Therefore your principall Argument that the seven particular Churches in Asia had no Iurisdiction one over another being under different civil Dominions and not members of the selfe-same Christian Republike ●…rgo the whol Parliament and Church of England have no Iurisdiction over particular parish Churches or Independent Congregations in England is a meere Independency