carnall wisdome loding him and the faithfull with opprobrious titles It is to no purpose that I should answer againe with words but when men shall once see throughlie into the fowlnes and dangers of Browâ—isme and what filthie geare they spread abroade they will thâ—nke it requisite and necessarie to call a spade a spade Donatisme must bee called Donatisme schisme must bee called schisme and heresies and fantasies must haue their due titles And now touching the defence he maketh it is nothing but certaine ragges which he peeceth together to couer his nakednes which also must be plucked from him It seemeth he doth trust to the ignorance or rashnes of some which either cannot or will not examine things aright God is a spirit to be worshipped in spirit I did do coÌ„fesse y t this scripture doth cut downe all carnall worship as disagreeing from the nature of God therefore may most fitlie be alleaged against such as shall maintaine that the verie bodilie action in reading is the worship of God But it is friuolous to applie it against praying after a prescript forme seeing a man may vpon a booke pray reading or after a prescript forme with sighes and groanes which procéed of faith Master Greenewood termeth this a bodilie distinction Doubtles if it be a bodilie distinction to affirme that the verie bodilie action of reading a prayer is not the worship of God which we maintaine against the Papists in their lippe labour I knowe not what Master Greenwood will allowe to bee spirituall What manner of spirit is his But now that he will put away all my distinctions by his affirming still for those bee his wordes and what Euen the whole matter in question betweene vs who cannot see what a valiant champion he is for how falselie he saith he hath prooued shall appeare Then hauing stoutlie affirmed that which is in question he saith and yet say you to applie this scripture thus against read prayer is friuolous How commeth in this word yet Doth it follow that I do not well in saying so notwithstanding you affirme the contrarie but you haue a reason of great force which is in these words I appeale to all mens consciences for the waight thereof Shall the consciences of all men bee made iudge whether that scripture bee rightlie applied Nay I appeale from the consciences of the Brownists Now in the next words where I affirmed that a man may pray by the Spirite of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke or when he prayeth after a prescript forme and therefore the application of that scripture is friuolous his shiftes are as slender For touching this clause that I say or after a prescript forme he saith I goe about to alter the question at the first steppe For as much as all our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his disciples and all posterities A great peece of work By vttering after a prescript forme I meane when a man hath learned a prayer eyther of the scripture or framed from thence and can vtter it without the booke as it is written And whereas it can not be denied but that many do pray feruentlie with sighes and grones and teares which reade the prayer vpon the booke or haue it as we vse to say by hart He answereth that I begge the question If a man do proue the cause by the effects which I doe heere it is no begging of the question but a firme proofe Where any thing is burnt there hath beene fire Where there be sighes and grones in prayer with inward comfort there is faith there is Gods spirit but these are in some that reade their prayers vpon the booke or vse prescript forme Maister Greenewood thinketh he hath disputed subtillie and couered himselfe when he can say ye alter the question ye begge the question ye assume the question Nowe touching the defence of his reasons he brought If those sighes and grones saith he were of faith that would minister matter of prayer without a booke This reason as I sayd is by connection drawne from the force and effect of faith and to make it strong and good I said these two things must be added y t faith needeth no outward helpe to minister matter of prayer and that it can not stande or be ioyned with any outward helpes which I said are both hereticall He saith he will lay the wordes againe before me if peraduenture I may haue grace to call my selfe backe I looke vpon them againe and although I did not two yeares as you vainely imagine nor yet two daies consider of that one saying yet can I not call my selfe back vnlesse I be conuinced with the light of truth and that ye say I shal be and will so confirme your sayings by scriptures that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gainesay or resist If the sighes and grones were of faith that would minister matter without a booke for the scripture ye affirme teacheth euerie where that in praying the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier through the scripture He hath seÌ„t into our harts the spirit of his sonne crying Abba father wee beleeue therefore we speake From hence now Maister Greenewood concludeth that I haue erred and from an idle braine godles heart haue coined those heresies because I constraine the proposition of the present action in praying vnto a generall sentence of all times and actions This is the summe of your answere that before prayer there neede helpes and outward meanes but in the present action of prayer onely the spirit doth helpe let vs see howe true this is and how it dooth excuse yee from those hereticall opinions which ye goe about to wipe away with this distinction First whereas yee say that in the verie time and action of prayer it is the spirit alone without any outward means because the scripture saith God hath sent into our heartes the spirit of his sonne crying abba Father I answere that howsoeuer the scripture doth extoll or magnifie outwarde helpes and meanes yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them or when the scripture will set foorth the efficacie and worke to be his alone they are either not meÌ„tioned or else if they be meÌ„tioned so cast down as if they were nothing God buildeth his Church by the ministerie of men yet he saith Paule planteth Appollo watereth but God giueth y e increase So that neither he which plaÌ„teth is any thing nor he that watreth but God that giueth the increase 1. Co. 3. And therfore to gather froÌ„ those sentences of scripture where the spirit of God is only mentioned to work praier because the work is his alone y t there neede or there may be no outward helps or meanes in the verie instant and action of praying is farre awrie For I would haue master
to the Scriptures then by that commaundement all are to bee brought in that be agreeable If there be no commandement then none are to be brought in I answere that God hath commaunded that in the Church all thinges bee done for edification now the prayers being the same being holy good are of like maiestie dignitie in thēselues vttred by him that conceaueth them or from a prescript forme the matter resteth not in that but in the faith and feruencie of those that pray there be errours and imperfections as well in the one as in the other but to auoide inconuenience and for the benefite of the simpler sort a prescript forme is needefull so farre commaunded Then see how friuolous this conclusion is that so all mens writinges which are thought to be agreeable to the word are to bee brought in seeing that which is conuenient in some is not conuenient in all His reasons which follow are in effect all one with the former and prooue not that conclusion of his to shut foorth the prescript forme of prayer Let the Brownist now set the word Apocripha aside which is but a woord and not of the Scriptures and go to the matter it selfe drawing by firme conclusion that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church which is not the perfect rule it selfe in writing or without errours vttred in speech and I will yéelde But this shall all the Brownistes in the world be neuer able to do as I haue sufficiently shewed before What then or where is his glorie and victorie which he boasteth off to be such that hee needeth to proceede no further But nowe I woulde haue the reader to vnderstande my meaning aright and how I argue least any should thinke I compare the hauing the Bible in a translation and the prayers and Sermons of the Pastors with the prescribed forme of prayer to be of but equall or like necessitie The summe of that I set downe is to this effect that it is false which Maister Greenewood standeth to prooue namely that nothing with errour in it is to bee brought into the publicke assemblies seeing there is a necessitie of hauing the scriptures in a translation there is also a necessitie of hauing the sermons and Prayers of the Ministers and yet errours in both that which is of necessitie to be had may not bee cast foorth because of imperfections and errours then also prescript forme of prayers though not of necessitie yet for conueniencie vnto edification is not to be cast foorth because of imperfections being not to increase but to diminish the errours in praying The next argument is this Wee must doe nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his word Read prayers haue no warrant of his woorde How false this assumption is namely That to reade a prayer when one doth pray or to followe a prescript forme hath no warrant in Gods woord I haue shewed by sundrie scriptures and reasons and answered al the shifts brought against them for which I referre the Reader to my former booke Maister Greenewood pressed with the waight of truth and finding he had vttred grosse matter could be content but that as he saith to answere vnconscionable slaunders to stay in the first argument as hauing wonne the field but yet he goeth on and by vaine shiftes wil doe as well as he can to couer his fault First he accuseth me that not hauing answered one reason I haue with much euill conscience as the handling sheweth peruerted them saying hee will leaue them to be iudged of them that shall see his writing and seeing I would not Print it he will answere my chief obiections Touching this I answere that your words are manie and I esteemed it a weariesome matter to write them all accounting it sufficient to note your reasons but looke whatsoeuer ye complayne off that I haue peruerted and done ye wrong in ye shall haue them in those pointes fully and wholy deliuered that all the worlde may see and iudge betweene vs whether I haue wilfully and vnconscionably and as a godlesse man as ye accuse me charged ye with any one thing which your words doe not containe Now to proceede to your replie First yee say that I graunt your Argument is sounde if yee put difference between reading vpon the booke and that which one hath learned out of the booke For by your owne confession say you God hath not giuen any commandement to read prayer and so it hath no warrant Hereupon yee charge mee that as an vnconstant man I call back againe that which I had graunted I saide I did not remember that euer I did read in the holie Scriptures that God commandeth the prayer shall bee read vpon the Booke If I haue called now to remembrance where it is reade It were no vnconstancie to say now there is commaundement But in deede I doe not remember I haue euer reade any such commaundement But now you boast of your gaines by this confession saying that I graunt then there is no warrant Lay all my words together and yee may put your gaine in your eye and see neuer the worse I set downe first of all that it is great audatitie to affirme that there is no warrant of the word for read prayer seeing there be sundrie testimonies to warrant the same as I haue shewed for the Lord prescribed a forme of blessing and commaunded the Priests so to blesse Num. 6. He prescribed a forme of prayer for the people at the offering the first fruites and cōmaunded thē to vse it Deutr. 26 The Psalme for the sabaoth was commaunded to bee song the Psalme 22. was to bee song euerie morning and these they were tied vnto by expresse commaundement though not to the booke because it is more commendable to haue them by heart And the Lorde dooth not tye a man to that which is lesse cōmendable This is the summe of that reason which I vsed from whence there is warrant to followe a prescript forme Master Greenewood vrgeth this if there be no commaundement then there is no warrant and affirmeth it to bee inconstancie to say there is no commaundement to reade praying and yet some warrant for it by the word I haue answered that God tied the Priests and people vnto some prescript formes though not preciselie to the booke And though that were legall and no such commandement to tie men of necessitie now yet it sheweth the thing to be holie and lawfull Further I adde if wee respect the matter as we say in the These or for a generalty there is no commandement for then it should bee of necessitie and not for conueniencie But if we regarde it in the Hypothese for circumstances in particularitie there is commaundement as thus God hath commaunded those thinges too bee done which serue as helpes for edification or be most conueuient Then where the state of anie man or the state of the assemblies is such as that prescript forme
of prayer is conuenient and needefull for edification there it is commanded Now let the reader obserue againe your words which are that al our ministers must leaue reading their stincted praiers vpon the booke or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that so praye with them Master Greenewood complaineth of great iniury wheÌ„ I gather from his words that he condemneth all Churches because hee knoweth that is a matter sufficient alone to bewray the wickednes of Brownisme Now if all our Ministers which pray vpon the booke and the people that pray with them stand vnder the wrath of God for this thing then cannot they be the Church of God for GOD loueth his Church and all Churches haue prescript formes of prayer which their Ministers vse therfore they all stand vnder Gods wrath But they doo it ignorantlie will he say and so say I did all our Churches vntill his papers came abroad and manie haue not as yet seene them and some that haue seene them are not perswaded and so are ignorant still The next thing ye deale with is the Argument which I drawe from the singing Psalmes vpon the booke it is so cleere they did sing them vpon the booke that the Brownist himselfe cannot denie it It is also most manifest they did sing them as hee also now confesseth to God for so are we commaunded in many places sing praises to God Then further he that offereth vp praise to God reading it cannot be gainsaide but that he offereth vp a spirituall sacrifice to God reading Yea praise is one parte of prayer and it is as hard a thing to speake praises to God vpon the booke as to craue by petitions vpon the booke and as spirituall a worke and I may say a more high seruice where is then that grosse fantasie of Master Greenewood which because reading is one thing and speaking to God is another saith a man cannot both read and speake to God at once He cannot say O my God when he readeth but O my booke why art thou so euill printed I argue if the people of God in olde time did both reade the Psalmes vpon the booke and speake vnto the Lord at the same instant how should it not now bee both possible and lawfull for to speake vnto God in praiers while one readeth Hée saieth I denie your Argument I say that is not sufficient to denie the Argument let vs therefore sée the reasons of the deniall Admitte that singing were a part of praier sayeth he yet dooth it not follow that all praier may bee read vpon the booke we must take this vpon your bare word at least such as will may beléeue yée I stand to affirme that one part of praier is as spirituall a worke as another thereupon I also affirme that if one part may bee read vppon the booke and no turning the worke of the spirite into an Idoll no stâ—nting the spirite no quenching the spirit no Idolatrie no hindrance but that hee which readeth may speake vnto God it may be so in any other part And let vs see what hee will bee able to disprooue this withall But hee saieth I speake like an ignorant man to say that singing is praier because they be two diuers actions and exercises of our faith The one neuer read for the other nor saide to be a parte of the other throughout the Scriptures but are plainelie distinguished As I will praye with the Spirite I will pray with vnderstanding I will sing with the spirit I will sing with vnderstanding saith Saint Paul I answer you could no where more vntimelie accuse mee of ignorance then where your owne speech in this and that which followeth next is patched vp with errors almost as thick as the patches vpon a beggars cloake And for answere I say first that Saint Paul dooth distinguish them there is great reason not onelie because the verie singing it selfe is not praier no more then reading or speaking but also that there bee manie praiers which are not song and manie Psalmes and songs which are no formes of praier nor the spéech directed to God a prayer that is no psalme is neuer called a psalme nor any reason why it should but a Psalme that is a praier is called both a Psalme and a praier The Psalme 86. is called Tephillah a praier and consisteth of sundrie petitions The Psalme 90. is so called being the praier of Moses Psalme 102. is called Tephillah leaaui the praier for the poore when hee is in perplexitie and powreth foorth his meditatioÌ„ before the Lord. The people praying for Christs Kingdome did vse to say Hosanna Blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord. Psal 118. The Psalme 50. and 119. with many other conta ne petitions almost in euery verse which if a man did pray or desire them earnestly singing it was no Idolatrie singing I graunt is not called praier but men might sing Psalmes to God and were commanded which contained praises and petitions but they were giuen to the Church to be song or read in y e forme of praier saith he but denieth y t this was to be done praying He not only confesseth they were to sing theÌ„ vnto God but also saith the Lord keep me froÌ„ such an error as to denie that yet eueÌ„ in this coÌ„fession falleth into as grose a matter for what can bee more absurd than that a man should vtter and speake euen vnto God that which is a prayer and yet might not pray as when out of the Psalm 118. praying for the kingdome of Christ they cried Hosanna blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord or when for some speciall benefite the whole Church was to sing prayse to God and had a prescript forme deliuered vnto them were they to mocke with God and not to speak prayses vnto him indeede from the heart and with chearefulnes or did God commaund them to doe two things which cannot bee done at once or wil any deny that many in singing though the singing it selfe be not praying doe giue hearty thankes to God where thanksgiuing is expressed and craue earnestly when they vtter petitions Master Greenewood doth grieuously complaine of me for doing him foule wrong in saying he denieth that the Psalmes are to be sung to God And what other thing in effect doth he vtter here when hee saith they were not to vtter the wordes of a Psalme to God praying But I willset downe his first words which are these The same may be sayde for the hundreth and second Psalme for although some haue taken it as a prayer of the Prophet when he was in affliction yet may I graunt with you to be taken in the future tense and auoyd that superstition you would fall into for if it had beene giuen vnto the Church to haue beene read as a prayer vnto God it should haue beene saide O Lord heare our prayer and let our crie come vnto thee And therefore it is manifest that
them therefore they doo not pray Because I saide it is an helpe to such as bee not otherwise throughlie able I must confesse that our whole Ministerie is vnable a reason worthie a Brownist There be other causes whie all Churches vse prescript forme yea whereas all Ministers be able to pray without a booke Where I saide yee speake fondlie to call that the cause which dooth but manifest the cause yee replie that I haue forgotten mine atts because there be mo causes than one there be instrumentall causes I graunt there be moe causes than one And it is certaine that the efficient cause is manifolde if you meane by fetching the cause of their sorrowing from the booke in the time of their begging at Gods hand the efficient cause instrumentall I would haue yee but answer whether the instrumental cause cannot goe with the action but the action is ouerthrowne or disgraced I would also demaund whether it followe which yee collect there is an instrumentall cause which is an helpe therefore there is nothing else Are these things other than trifles I saide yee did answere nothing to that saying of our Sauiour When ye pray say our Father which art in Heauen c. Luke 11. Yee seeme that yee will not answer vnles I conclude from this place by Syllogisme but yet afterward yee doâ— And indeede what needeth a Syllogisme where the words are of themselues sufficient without anie further consequence or collection If our Sauiour commaund to say those words praying then is it most cleere that to vse a prescript forme of words in praying is not idolatrie nor a thing most detestable But yee say yee manifested in your first writing that our Sauiour did not commaund to vse those words when wee pray but to pray according to that forme Saint Matthew say you and Saint Luke keep not the same words nor that number of words hee saide not reade these words or say thâ—se words by roate when ye pray These reasons I haue slilie passed ouer as you accuse me What reasons If it be a reason there is but one for Christs speech is plaine when yee pray say thus therefore we may vse those words But must wee vse them of necessitie and neuer none other Not so but wee may vse and it is necessarie for vs to vse particulars which are conteined in those generals which are the ground and direction of all prayers Your one reason or that which hath shew of reason is in this that Saint Luke dooth omitte for thine is the Kingdome c. And that in the fourth and fift petitions they expresse the same matter with some difference of words As though the question were about such a precisenes in words that wee might not expresse the same petition in another phrase but it ceaseth to be the same Now where I conclude that it is therefore lawfull to vse a prescript forme of prayer which is framed according to the Scriptures in the assemblies To this yee replie that because no mans writings are without error it is pernicious and blasphemous doctrine which I collect This yee affirme stoutlie and for proofe bring nothing but those stale cauills which I haue sundrie times answered and now yee will answer to the two places alleaged Numb 6. and Luke 11. The priestes yee say were not commanded to vse those verie words of the blessing when they blessed the people the reason yee bring is from the Hebrew words which are as you say Coh teborcu thus shall yee blesse Where the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude as we say after this manner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This word Coh is vsed throughout the Bible in this manner in all the prophets when they say thus saith the Lord. To this I answer first let all men of anie meane learning in the Hebrew bee witnes how vnfit Master Greenewood is to reason from that tongue when hee can not so much as reade two words of it aright For he saieth Coh teborcu and it is Coh tebaracu Then for the matter it selfe this learned Hebrucian saith that Coh being an aduerb of similitude as we say after the same manner it cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions Where ignorance boldnes are met together what childreÌ„ they bring foorth We must beleeue that the Lord when he saith thus shalt thou blesse and prescribeth the words willeth the Priests not to speake the same words but the like And when our Sauiour saith When ye pray say thus Our father c. It is as much as if he should say in any wise say not these wordes at any time but the like For thus is not the same but the like God sayd to Moses I will send thee to Pharao that thou maiest bring the children of Israel out of Egypt Moses draweth backe saying when I shall come to the children of Israel and shall say vnto them the God of your fathers hath sent me vnto ye If they shall say vnto me what is his name what shall I say vnto them The Lord sayd Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel Eheie hath sent me vnto ye Moreouer God sayd to Moses Thus shalt thou say vnto them The God of your fathers the God of Abraham the God of Isaak the God of Iaacob hath sent me vnto ye Exod. 3. vers 13 14 15. Now according to Master Greenwoods exposition of Coh Moses is not commanded to say those words but the like If they should demaund what is his name that hath sent thee he may not say Eheie hath sent me because God sayd Coh that is thus which is not the same words but the like He might not say the God of Abraham the God of Isaak the God of Iaacob hath sent me vnto ye which GOD saith is his name and memoriall for euer because God sayd Coh that is thus shalt thou say but hee must say the like words He saith further that Coh is so vsed in all the Prophets when it is sayd thus saith the Lord. That is GOD hath not spoken these very words which wee bring might the Prophets say but the like It is a like thing that Master Greenwood or some other Hebrucian among the Brownists hath read ouer al the Prophets in the Hebrew tongue to finde how Coh is euerie where vsed when he could not reade two words right And now what shall we say of the Scriptures the words if wee shall beléeue the Brownists are not Gods words but the words of the Prophets Is this wholesome doctrine Did the Prophets bring any one word which GOD did not put into their mouth I pray ye Master Greenwood or any other Brownist tell me did not God speake in the Prophets all the words that they vttered euen at the verie instant when they say thus saith the Lord How can it then so wickedly be sayd they were not the very same words which God spake but
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous
separation from Caecilianus and those that claue to him The deuision grewe greater and greater they had assemblies and Bishops on Donatus part in processe of time in great number They condemned not only the Church at Carthage and the neighbour Churches in Aphrica as guiltie therewith but all Churches through the world as wrapped together in the guiltines of those Churches of Aphrica They pronounced them all polluted vncleane abominable and vtterlie fallen from the Couenant of God through the pollution of such as had committed sacrilege and were not seperated They said there were no Ministers of Christ no Sacraments so no true Church among them but heapes of wicked polluted sacrilegious persons whose teachers were all generations of traitors Iudasses persecutors of Gods Saints and that as many as would bee saued must seperate themselues and ioyne with the pure selected companie of Donatus And for these respects they baptized again all such as fell vnto them as not being baptized before but polluted with a prophane washing Now through the shew of burning zeale and stiffe rigorous seueritie in condemning sinne and by the vehement outcries which they made that the discipline was not duely executed in as much as the prophane were mingled together in the assemblies with y e pure and no seperation made many of the people not well settled and grounded in the trueth were terrified and turned vnto them taking them to be most zealous holie men and the onlie true Church in earth and with excéeding bitternesse condemned all other as abominable Idolaters and cursed traytors whose worship God abhorred It was before the daies of Augustine that this sect began and in his time was greatlie spread And when he wrote that it was against all equitie to condemne as they did at the first the whole world for the sinne of Caecilianus because if he were guiltie yet the Churches farre off knew not so much but might rather iudge him cléere being cléered in iudgement They maintained the matter to prooue that there were no true flocks nor pastors after another sort and did affirme that as the Church of Carthage and the Churches elsewhere in Aphrica were fallen from God by the pollution of the sacrilege of Caecilianus and other so all other Churches in the world were destroyed by the like sacrileges committed in the daies of persecution by wicked men among them whose sinnes were open and knowne and no seperation made For thus speaketh Parmenian a Donatist Bishop as Augustine doth set it downe in his first booke against him and third Chapter Dicit etiam Parmenianus hinc probari consceleratum fuisse orbem terrarum criminibus traditionis aliorum sacrilegiorum quia cum multa talia fuerint tempore persecutionis admissa nulla propterea facta est in ipsis prouincijs separatio populorum That is Parmenian also saith that from hence it is prooued that the world hath been together made wicked or hainouslie polluted with the crimes of treason and of other sacrileges because when many such things were done in the time of persecution there was no seperation of the people made for the same in the Prouinces Marke well this saying of Parmenian the Donatist for it doth expressie set downe the ground of Donatisme The words of Petilian another Donatist Bishop to prooue all the Ministers of the Churches to be but successors of traitors as Augustine doth report them in his second booke against him Chapt. 8. are many I will onely recite the chiefe of them This Petilian hauing before saide that he which is baptized by one that is dead his washing doth profite him nothing then procéedeth to shewe how farre as he saith an vnfaithfull traitor may be accompted dead while he liueth And for this be frameth a comparison betwéene Iudas and the Pastors of the Church condemning them as the worse For after he hath set forth that Iudas was an Apostle when he betraied Christ and spirituallie dead when he had lost the honour of an Apostle and as it was foretold by Dauid that another should haue his place so Matthias succéeded him in the Apostleship He would haue no foole here dispute that Matthias dare away triumph and not iniurie which by the victorie of Christ had the spoyle of the traitor Then he demandeth how canst thou by this déede challenge to thy selfe the office of a Bishop being the heire of a more wicked traitor Iudas Christum carnalem tradidit tu spiritualem furens Euangelium sanctum flammis sacrilegis tradidisti Iudas betraied Christ carnal thou spirituall being in furie thou hast deliuered the holie Gospell to the fire Iudas legislatorem tradidit perfidis tu quasi eius reliquias legem dei perdendā hominibus tradidisti Iudas betraied the lawgiuer to the wicked thou hast betraied as it were his reliques the lawe of God vnto mē to be destroied Si hominis mortui testamentū flammis incenderes nonne falsarius punireris quid de te ergo futurum est qui sanctissimam legem dei iudicis incendisti If thou shouldest burne the will of a dead man shouldest thou not bee punished as a falsifier what then shall become of thee which hast burnt the most holie lawe of GOD the Iudge Iudam facti vel in morte poenituit te non modò non poenitet verumetiam nequissimus traditor nobis legem seruantibus persecutor carnifex existis Iudas repented him of his deed at least in death but thou doest not onely not repent but also being a most wicked traitor remainest a persecutor and a tormentor of vs that keepe the lawe Cresconius a Grammarian one as it seemeth that taught some Grammar schoole tooke vpon him to write against Augustine in the defence of Petilian or rather of the whole Donatisme and he laieth to the charge of Caecilianus the vnpardonable sinne against the holie Ghost in betraying the scriptures to the persecutors vsing this argument Holie men of God deliuered them as they were led by the holie Ghost Augustine in the 4. booke against Cresconius Chapt. 8. Petilian though otherwise full of great bragging being verie vnwilling to haue open disputation in any open assembly of learned men vsed this arrogant speach Indignum est vt in vnum conueniant filij martyrum progenies traditorum It is an vnworthie thing that the sonnes of the Martyres and the generations of traitors should be assembled together Thus much may suffice for this poynt Where we see that the Donatists departed disorderlie out of the Church condemning it not for any poynt of doctrine for therein they did not disagree but for that many which in the time of persecution dissembled many which reuolted and to saue their liues did sacrifice to the Idolls many which deliuered the bookes of holie Scripture to bee burned and betraied the names of the brethren when the storme was ouer there was a sodaine calme the Emperour Constantine being become Christian such ioy in all Christian lands Christianitie magnified with such honour
Greenwood answere whether the voice of an other that prayeth whether fasting listing vp the eyes and hands which hee mentioned or whether prosirating the bodie and kneeling be prayer it selfe or outward meanes to make the prayer more feruent Euerie simple man will laugh at him if he say they be prayer it selfe whereupon hee must bee forced to confesse they bee but outward helpes and meanes Then aske master Greenwood againe whether a man be to fast to kneele downe to prostrate his bodie to lifte vp his eyes and hands onely before the action of prayer or in praying If he answere what a question is that what foole will say before those things are to be done in the very instant and action of prayer Then all men may sée that master Greenwood hath brought this I will not say from an idle braine for I should not say true but from an vnsound braine that he may confirme by many testimonies of scripture that the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities in the present action of prayer that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gayn-say or resist Yee sée the spirit of trueth can resist it and proue that not onely before prayer but euen in the very action of prayer outward helps and meanes especially for the ignorant and dull are needfull and good and therefore the Brownists spirit is a false spirit which saith The scripture teacheth euery where that in praying the spirite onely helpeth our infirmities no other helps mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier In the next place where hee had said A troubled heart is the pen of a readie writer therfore needeth not a booke I sayd here can bee no good argument without an absolute perfection in knowledge cheerefulnes direction memorie and vtterance and that many are so perplexed in their troubles of heart that they cannot pray which through helpe of outward meanes doe powre foorth tears and supplications He will not allow this for any answere but doth distinguish of troubled mindes The troubled minde he speaketh of which is the pen of a readie writer is when the minde is presently moued with the sight of some sin or vrged by other occasion a broken spirite a broken and contrite heart Psal 51. and not the minde which in dispaire or doubt is perplexed Then I answere that he must allow these latter the helpes and outward meanes that they may be rid of their doubt and perplexitie Moreouer there is no man so perfect in faith but he hath great remnants in him of dispaire and doubting Why else did Dauid crie out Correct me not in thy wrath my bones are troubled Psal 6. Cast me not out from thy face Psal 51 While I kept silence my bones did weare away my moysture was turned into the drought in Summer psal 32. Hath God forgottē to be merciful hath he shut vp his compassiōs in wrath psal 77. Whereupon it doth follow that there is no man but may be fore troubled and perplexed with doubts when the hand of God is heauie vpon him and the sight of his sinnes doth terrifie him It is not the glorie of faith to bee where there are us doubts of dispaire or no perplexities but to get the victorie ouer them when they do assaile it Therfore the ignoranter sorte in perplexitie need outward helps The next part of mine answere that such as be troubled and perplexed and cannot pray are holpen by a booke and by other meanes hee doth allow and agree vnto So that wee make reading one thing and praying another Who doubteth that they be two things did not I set downe at the first that the bodely action of reading is not the worship of God Then master Greenwood hath his desire seeing as he saith wee cannot do both at once he that prayeth speaketh to God My God why doest thou hide thy face from me But the Priest may say My booke whie art thou so euill printed For when they reade the heart cannot reason and talke with God If the matter written in the booke bee a speach directed vnto God as In thee O Lord haue I put my trust let me neuer be confoūded let master Greenewood or all the Brownists in the world bring anie coulour of reason to prooue that a man cannot at the same instant both vtter it with his mouth in reading and pray it with his heart Master Greenwood must denie this againe For alas what stuffe is this or els how did they sing psalms to GOD and reade them vpon the booke how can a man heare and pray both at one instant Then in the next where he saith I did but assume the question in affirming that a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. his argument being thus That none worship God but they which from the inward faith of the heart bring foorth true inuocation This doo not they that reade vpon the booke while they pray I sayd he bringeth nothing to prooue the assumption but that which is friuolous For that it is sayd wee would haue men instead of powring foorth their hearts to helpe themselues vpon a booke I answere that we wish men to vse the helpe of a booke that they may the better powre foorth their hearts to GOD beeing such as are not otherwise throughly able And that we would haue men to fetch the cause of their sighing and sorrowing from another mans writing euen in the time of their begging at Gods hand I answered how fondlie doo ye make that to bee the cause which doth but manifest the cause For that which we reade or heare doth but shewe vnto vs the miserie which is within and how it shall bee cured Now let the reader obserue how simple shifts he findeth here The first is the difference betweene reading and praying the one beeing a powring foorth of supplications the other a receiuing into the soule such things as wee reade I pray ye tell me but this when one heareth a prayer pronounced by another with whom he praieth doth not his hearing receiue it into his soule and at the very same instant also he doth powre it foorth as a praier to GOD Are not the receiuing in and the powring foorth done both at once How will he auoid the follie that I charged him withall when receiuing in and powring foorth goe together at the same instant But it is beyond all the rest that he saith I graunt the whole question by granting that reading the prayers is not the prayer but an helpe Is it all one to aske whether a man may be holpen to prayer by reading and whether the reading it selfe be praier Hereupon hee also inferreth that all our assemblies haue had none other inuocation of Gods name but an helpe to teach them to power foorth their hearts Then belike it followeth that wheresoeuer the helpe is there is or there can be no more because such as read vpon a booke when they pray haue a good helpe to further