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A56638 A continuation of the Friendly debate by the same author. Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.; Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707. Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist. 1669 (1669) Wing P779; ESTC R7195 171,973 266

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Of their Canting phrases as Generation-work witnessing time from pag. 81. to 91 Dr. Wilkinsons confidence noted pag. 85 86 How they have shifted and changed phrases to serve their turn Ib. Of the power of phrases to hinder men from observing how they have been cheated pag. 88 The power they fancy they have to destroy us pag. 90 Their opinion of their knowledge and worth pag. 93 c. Of their practice and skill in expounding works of providence pag. 94 c. Their people not more knowing than ours pag. 99 Many know not what that is which they cry out against pag. 101 Instances in Popery superstition Will-worship pag. 102 103 c. About forms of prayer pag. 106 Their forms of railing which they use even in prayer c. pag. 107 Their small skill save only in phrases pag. 110 As appears by their easie turning to the wildest Sects pag. 111 A famous instance of this in New England pag. 112 Mistakes about the Spirits teaching and inspirations c. pag. 113 This together with the obscurity of their Doctrine a great cause of peoples doubts and desertions pag. 114 An instance of the intricate way of Mr. Hooker to satisfie a doubting Christian pag. 115 And to bring it to the promise as he speaks pag. 116 Hence the New England whimseyes pag. 117 Mr. J. Durants way of comforting believers and opening Scriptures pag. 118 119 They are no better at resolving doubts about particular actions pag. 120 How Religion hath been spoiled of late and exposed to contempt pag. 123 Non-conformists great want of Modesty pag. 126 c. Concerning eminent men pag. 129 Of judging others in what things we may in what not pag. 130 Charity covers a Multitude but cannot or may not cover all sins pag. 131 By what means prophaness came to abound pag. 133 Publicans and Harlots or Scribes and Pharisees which the worse pag. 135 136 The danger of Schism and separated Congregations pag. 138 139 Mr. Bridge his vain conceit that we are angry because they withdraw from us and slight us pag. 140 c. How 2 Cor. 6.17 is abused by him to countenance the separation pag. 144 By which and such like the old Brownists and more ancient Donatists justified their Schism pag. 145 The wise and charitable courses to which St. Austin directs us when men are generally bad pag. 146 147 Mr. Calvins judgment of a true Church and separation from it pag. 149 And Presbyterian Ministers judgment pag. 151 Act. 19.9 doth not countenance the separation pag. 152 The impertinent allegation of that place Rev. 14.4 by Mr. Bridg pag. 153 How the people have been cheated with the noise of such words as Babylon c. pag. 154 And by other means pag. 155 156 c. Of Idol Ministers pag. 158 c. The folly of those who think our Ministers out of respect to themselves are troubled to see people go to meetings pag. 161 The true reason of their trouble and the great danger of separation pag. 162 Not only to those who are of it but to others pag. 163 The great extremities it hurries men into pag. 165 The Presbyterian excuse that they separate not from us as Antichristian considered pag. 166 c. It makes their cause the worse if it be true pag. 168 Which tender conscienc'd men should consider especially remembring the issue pag. 169 170 The disorders among the Independents when in Holland pag. 171 And more anciently among the old Separatists pag. 172 173 c. No security against the like or worse again pag. 175 In vain to bewail these Divisions unless we take a course to amend them pag. 177 What belongs to private persons to do in order to it pag. 178 c. Not study so much their Governors duty as their own and what that is pag. 180 181 Of yielding on both sides pag. 182 The ancient Non-conformists did not think they still ought to preach when they were deprived but the contrary that they ought not pag. 183 The idle pretence of some from that place Wo be to me if I preach not confuted pag. 185 186 And of not consulting with flesh and blood pag. 187 Non-conformists do it too much Ib. Else why do they not teach as the old Non-conformists did how lawful set forms are c. pag. 188 189 And teach this with great earnestness pag. 190 Especially considering how miserably some are prejudiced against them pag. 191 That exception answered though a form be lawful yet useless pag. 192 Some reflections on a Book called common-Common-prayer Book Dovotions Episcopal Delusions c. pag. 193 The prophaness and chollerick scurrility of it pag. 194 c. The Ignorance and boldness of the Prefacer pag. 197 Mr. Cartwright not against a set form of Prayer c. pag. 199 How vainly he vapours with the name of Mr. Parker Ib. And abuses Mr. Greenham pag. 200 But above all Dr. J. Reynolds who lived and dyed conformable in all things to the orders of the Church of England pag. 201 Some of the little reasonings in the book answered pag. 203 204 The abuse of a place of Scripture noted pag. 205 The Liturgy smels not of the Mass-book pag. 206 Antiquity of Liturgies by their own confession pag. 207 The presumption and uncharitableness of this Writer pag. 208 209 His main Argument answered pag. 210 After all his blustering he allows a prescribed form to be lawful pag. 211 And is fain to wrest some Scriptures in favour of conceived prayers pag. 213 His false arguing from Jer. 7.31 and such like places pag. 214 How that place Deut. 12.32 is wont to be misinterpreted pag. 215 It was the manner of Mr. J. G. to speak confidently be the cause never so bad pag. 217 218 Non-conformists generally guilty of too much confidence pag. 219 A gross corruption of Dr. Sibbs his souls conflict after his death noted Ib. 220 c. Of Forms of Prayer and of imposing them pag. 222 Smectymnuus allowed impositions in some cases pag. 223 The Presbyterians were against a Tolleration of the Independent way pag. 224 The Independents also impose their own devices have forms also c. pag. 226 c. Of Christian Liberty pag. 229 The opinion of Mr. Dury and Mr. Cotton c. about this pag. 230 231 Of Penalties pag. 232 The opinion of Presbyterians and Independents formerly about them pag. 233 How the King himself was abridg'd of his Liberty pag. 234 The Independents for punishments pag. 236 Some good Counsels out of Mr. Bernard pag. 239 How to behave our selves in doubts pag. 241 Some good Rules to guide our selves by pag. 242 What to do if we think that is sinful which Authority commands pag. 243 Rom. 14.23 Whatsoever is not of faith is sin opened Ib. Of fear to offend others pag. 244 The great want of charity and such like graces pag. 245 How these good Counsels were contemned by the separatists pag. 246 A description of them Ib. The Resolution of the
say Come let us go up out of this Babel and confusion Let us return to Sion though it be with weeping and Supplication There the Lord dwelleth and there he is truly worshipped For whatsoever they may acknowledg sometime the poor people whom I pity with all my soul are strangely and passionately possessed with an opinion of the sinfulness of being present at our Divine Service Many of them esteem one of our Ministers how well soever qualified and diligent in his calling however blameless and exemplary in his conversation no better than a Corrupt man a Time-server a Formalist Popishly affected or at least a man blinded and deceived through Ignorance Nay there are those who call them the Sons of Perdition and make them men of no Conscience Some have questioned whether they may marry a Conformist as if they were the people of a strange God To hear such a Minister they look upon as a great crime At least they think if any other be to be found they must go to the Non-Conformist though far the weaker man And as if they thought that to be godliness in themselves which they call tyranny in other men there are some that impose this upon their Children never to hear the Common-Prayer And charge them as I have heard upon their blessing to obey them in this Command And when for very shame they 01 cannot but acknowledg the gifts of some Ministers then they limit the use of them only to the information of mens Minds in the letter of the Scripture and discovering gross sins But that they may convert Souls and work Faith and Repentance in them they very much doubt if not flatly deny Nay so far doth this conceit carry some of them that they will scarce give a friendly countenance or salutation to us And they commonly call any small company of their own party the Church the people of God the Christians of such a town As if we had no portion in Christ but they had got him wholly to themselves These Humours were observed in the old Separatists and since they abound in you also there is great need to warn you to purge out the old leven lest it be transmitted from generation to generation N. C. But though a set Forum be lawful yet it is useless because there is no able Minister that needs one and we ought not to provide Crutches for those that are not able but rather remove them C. You would fain be Governors I see not subjects and we should have fine doings if you were in the Throne Unless you were as wise and honest as some of your Predecessors have been who made this discreet answer to your Exception There may be good Ministers who want the gift of extemporary conceptions of Prayer and by consequence need a Form For St. Paul setting down the requisites to a Bishop saith Mr. Geree * Resolution of 10. Cases Licensed by Mr. Cranford and dedicated to Mr. Rith Capel An. 1644. 1 Tim. 3. 1 Tit. Neither names nor intimates this for one of them And where the Scripture speaks of Ministerial gifts given to the edification of the Church this gift of prayer is never mentioned * 1 Corinth 1. to the 11. Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephes 4.11.12 Tell me then if a man have all that St. Paul requires in a Bishop and yet wants this gift is he a lawful Minister of the Gospel or not No doubt there are such who cannot express themselves without confusion or to the edification of others without the help of a Form And experience tells us very excellent men have constantly tyed themselves to it As Dr. Taylor a couragious witness to the Truth used the communion-Communion-Book even in private when he was in Prison and bequeath'd it as a Legacy to his Wife He instances also in Dr. Sibs and Mr. Hildersham who used constantly one form of Prayer before their Sermons And I find indeed the two last Sermons of the Doctor sent abroad by two eminent men with that Prayer before them * Upon 14. John 1. published by Mr. Tho. Goodwin and Mr. Philip Nye and dedicated to my Lord of Warwick By which you may see the Assembly were much out of the way when they told you the Lord Jesus furnishes all those whom he calls to the Ministry with this gift of Prayer Or else these men were among the idle and unedifying Ministry who did not put forth themselves to exercise their gift Preface to the Directory N.C. I have many things to say about Forms of Prayer and yours in particular especially about the imposing them if you have the patience to hear me C. With all my heart Only contract what you have to say because I have some business stayes for me N.C. You have seen a Book I perceive which hinders several persons I am told from joyning with you and they think it unanswerable C. What Goliah should that be N. C. It is called Common Prayer-Book-Devotions Episcopal Delusions Or the Second Death of the Service-Book C. A terrible Giant-like Title N.C. The Preface to which seems to call your Ministers the Sons of Perdition as you just now noted C. O I remember now it is said by his Friends to be writ by Mr J. Goodwin and printed in the wonderful year 1666 when they thought to see us tumble down with a powder N.C. It is full of his peculiar phrases and therefore C. I am not concern'd at all who was the Author Let 's consider what he says I took it to be a piece so soul and scurrilous nay so prophane and blasphemous against those Devotions wherein so many thousand Souls offer up themselves to God that I never expected to hear you name it without abhorrence N.C. You pass a very hard sentence on it C. If you had read the two first leaves seriously you would not say so Where as if he imagin'd himself in a Tennis-Court when he chanc't to peep into a Church he rudely calls the Minister's and People's answering one another Bandying and tossing of Devotions to and again a witty expression you think but borrowed alas as the rest of his Book from the Railers that were before him * It is as old as the Admonition in Qu. Elizabeths time Nay his fancy stept immediately from thence into an Ale-house and he tells us that these Devotions much resemble the jolly Scent of a set of Ale-inspired Companions chanting their drunken Catches upon a Bench. Which is such a leud and impious Scoff at the Devotions inspired by the Holy-Ghost which directed the Antient Saints thus to answer one another * 15 Exo. 1.21.15 Rev. 3. that to speak in Mr. J. Goodwins phrase he must be the first-born of prophanness who can deliberately commend such writings N.C. But what do you say to the rest of the Book C. I say he was in such a Cholerick fit and laid so furiously about him when he writ it that neither the admirable Song of St. Ambrose nor
he have any of that vertuous colour left N.C. Was not Cartwright of his mind C. No. For he declared his meaning was not to disallow of a prescript form of Prayer and an Vniform Order in the Church His quarrel was onely with some things in our service-Service-Book But yet he professed he did not oppose the Ceremonies as simply unlawful but only as inconvenient And therefore perswaded the Pretchers rather to wear the Surpliss than cease their Ministry and the people to receive the Sacrament kneeling if they could not have it otherways because though that gesture was as he conceived incommodious yet not simply unlawful All which and a great deal more I will prove out of his own works and other good Authors if it be contradicted as also that he lost his Professors-place at Cambridge upon other accounts and after all went to Warwick where he was born and dyed in the discharge of his Office as their Minister And Mr. Edwards I remember tells us that he citing a passage out of Mr. Cartwright's Comments on the Proverbs in a Sermon he preached a little before the Wars to perswade the people to take heed of the White Devil viz. the separation upon greater pretence of Purity Mr. John Goodwin came to him when he had done and gave him great thanks for it As for Mr. Parker he indeed went further and said the Ceremonies were unlawful either to be imposed or used But he was far from being so great a Schollar as this man fancies at least his learning was not well digested For taking upon him to maintain that Popish Idolatry is every whit as bad as Pagan he brings a passage out of Saint Augustine to justifie this that a Heretick is worse than a Pagan Which are the Words of another man whom Saint Augustine in that place confutes and asks him by what rule he concluded this seeing our Lord said If he hear not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen not worse than an Heathen By which you may see how how forward men of this spirit are to catch at any thing that may seem to favour their Opinions and to make a shew of learning when they think it will serve them though they slight and undervalue it as a carnal weapon when it is in their Adversaries hands And if I thought this man understood him I should imagin he had learnt of Mr. Parker to magnifie those of his own party beyond their deserts For he extolls the refusing of conformity as such a singular piece of service done to God that he compares such persons as were therefore deprived to David Worthies and the three hundred men that followed Gideon Most brave flourishes How can you chuse but yield your felf captive to such Champions believing this Preface upon his word that those he Musters up were in the number of the Worthies But he belies Mr. Greenham too as I am able to prove from good Testimony even from himself But for brevities sake I shall only let you know that Doctor John Burges assures us that on his own knowledge and in his hearing Mr. Greenham denied to perswade any man against the use of the Ceremonies and professed he would be loth to be put to the solution of this Objection as he called it wear the Surpliss or Preach not Which is an argument that though he did not like them yet he did not hold them unlawful much less Idolatrous as this Ignorant Writer would perswade us I can prove also that he abuses Doctor Ames but that I make haste to tell you the most palpable forgery of all is the putting Doctor Reynolds into the Catalogue of his Mighty Men. And since he pretends to understand Latine I will send him for his more full conviction to an Author no less learned than that excellent Doctor and a far better Schollar than any of the rest and that is Doctor Richard Crackanthorp who tells the Arch-bishop of Spalato that the Doctor was no Puritan as he called him but he himself a Calumniator Defens Ecclsiae Anglicanae c. cap 69 pag. 419. An. 1529. For first he professed that he appeared unvillingly in the cause at Hampton Court and meerly in obedience to the Kings command And then he spake against not one word there against the Hierarchy Nay he acknowledged it to be consonant to the word of God in his conference with Hart. And in an Answer to Sanders his Book of the Schism of England which is in the Arch-bishops Library he professes that he approves of the Book of Consecrating and ordering Bishops Priests and Deacons He was a strict observer also of all the Orders of the Church and University both in publick and his own Colledg wearing the Square Cap and Surpliss Kneeling at the Sacrament and he himself commemorating their Benefactors at the times their Statutes appointed and reading that Chapter out of Ecclesiasticus which is on such occasions used In a Letter also of his to Arch-bishop Bancroft then in Doctor Crackanthorps hands he professes himself conformable to the Church of England willingly and from his heart his Conscience admonishing him so to be And thus he remained perswaded to his last breath desiring to receive Absolution according to the manner prescribed in our Liturgy when he lay on his Death-bed Which he did from Doctor Holland the King's Professor in Oxford kissing his hand in token of his Love and Joy and within a few hours after resigned up his Soul to God What think you now was Doctor Reynolds one of those that abominated our Worship suffered extream persecution deprivation and banishment too Or must he that lately stood among the most learned and godly men in the World be now blotted out and put in the black list of Idolaters and touchers with Graven Images What say you Will you never see how these men deceive you Must the most knowing men on our side that report things to us from solid testimony be thought lyars and these impudent sots be believed on their bare word N.C. I am convinced he understood nothing of these matters C. And yet he writes like a Teacher though I believe he never studied their own Writers about these points If he had the silenced Ministers in those dayes would have taught him a great part of what I have said For they have told us in Print * Christian Modest Offer as they call it of the silenced Ministers in which they call for another disputation Anno 1606. that Most of those Ministers appointed to speak for them at Hampton Court were not of their chusing or Nomination or Judgment in the matters then in question but of a clean contrary For being intreated at that time to dispute against those things as simply evil and such as could not be yielded to without sin they professed to them they were not so perswaded and therefore could not do so And being then requested to let his Majesty understand that some of their Brethren were
only observe that heretofore your Ministers thought it no light Argument against the Separatists that all Reformed Churches acknowledged the Church of England as their sister and consequently did not think her wicked for imposing Forms of Prayer So you may read in the Book I told you of before published by Mr. Rathband p. 6. though the truth is those Ministers have taken that Argument out of the Book of Mr. Bernards * Errors of Barrow and Greenwood confuted 1608 pag. 178. who speaks discreetly when he saith That though we do not make this our only or chief defence whereby we seek to approve our selves to God or the consciences of his people yet it is a thing that gives some reputation to us For even Saint Paul who received not his calling either from or by men alledges for the credit of his Ministry that three chief Apostles approved him and gave him the right hand of fellowship And which is more he seeks to win commendation and credit even to those Orders which he by his Apostolical Authority might have established by the example and judgment of other Churches * For which he cites 1 Cor. 7.17.11.15.14.33.16.1 N. C. Then you are for imposing C. I am for that which all men of any discretion think necessary viz. that every body should not be left to do according to their present humour and fancy when they come to worship God in the publick Assemblies Even the famous Smectymnuus allowed impositions in some cases For they propound this as an expedient that if it shall appear any Minister proves insufficient to discharge the duty of prayer in a conceived way it may be imposed on him as a punishment to use a set form and no other † Answer to the Humble Remonstrance p. 14. This was indeed a contrivance to disgrace the Liturgy as if it were fit for no bodies use but the duller and heavier sort of People but yet it shews their judgment above imposing which you now complain of And I would fain know what they would have done with such insufficient persons as had a good opinion of their gifts and thinking themselves wrong'd in being condemned to the forenamed Pennance would not obey them Would they have forced them to obedience or no If not their expedient signified nothing If they would then why should not the Magistrate do it now who knows that most of those who love liberty have a better opinion of their own abilities than they ought N. C. We wish the Common Prayer was left at liberty to be used or not as men found themselves inclined C. Do you so That 's because you despise it and think it good for little or nothing But were there one of your own Inventions to be established you would never leave us at Liberty if you had power to make use of it or let it alone Nothing should stand in competition with it but every thing else as well as Common-Prayer fall before it as Dagon before the Ark. Did not the Independents incur your displeasure for craving an allowance to order a few Churches after their own fashion Mr. Dury himself I remember a man of peace and composer of differences resolved their way was not to be tollerated For it would lay said he † Epistolary Discourse p. 21. Licensed by Mr. Cranford July 27. 1644. the foundation of strife and Division in the Kingdom to have two wayes of Church Government which may agree with some Matchiavilian but no Christian Policy And therefore it will be no wisdom in the State to yield to the Suit of the five Brethren except it be induced thereunto by the Necessity of avoiding some greater inconvenience than is the admitting of a seed of perpetual Division within it self which is in my apprehension the greatest of all other and most opposite to the Kingdom of Christ Now the less the cause of separation is the greater is the fault in those that make it and the less cause the State hath to give way to the making of it You remember therefore what Ordinances were made for the electing of Elders and that all Parishes and places whatsoever as well priviledged and exempt jurisdictions as others should be brought under the Government of Congregational Classical Provincial and National Assemblies a Ordin of 19. Au. 1645. And this was according to their solemn promise of setling Uniformity which part of the Covenant they said if you will believe them was alwayes before their eyes b Ordin 14 Mar. 1645. In pursuance of which also the City desired c Humble Remonstrance and Petition May 26. 1646. that some strict and speedy course might be taken for the suppressing of all private and separated Congregations And the House of Lords ordered the Printing of their Petition which was grounded upon a Remonstrance † Decemb. 15. 1642. of the House of Commons wherein they declared that it was far from their purpose or desire to let loose the golden rains of Discipline and Government in the Church or to leave private persons or particular Congregations to take up what form of Divine Service they please As for the sacred Covenant that Holy Ordinance as Mr. Case calls it and choice piece of Divine Service you know no man could be a Minister or an Elder no nor practice as an Attorney or Solicitor at the Law unless he took it and the refusal of it was generally made a Mark of ungodliness as I will prove when you please N. C. I know not what reasons they went by then C. The same whereby they would proceed now if they had the same power and the same hopes And so I believe would the Independents too who are for imposing their own things as much as they are able For they have invented you must know a Model and form of their own heads which is not appointed in Holy Scriptures As first that the Members must be examined and give an account of the manner of their conversion which is in a certain Method and Form too in New-England and that before the Church Narration of some Church Courses in N. England by W. R. collected out of their own reports c. chap. 4. pag. 16. Then it is required that they enter into a Church-Covenant which is not the Covenant of grace but distinct from it For they acknowledge a man may be within the Covenant of Grace who is not in this and one may be in this who is not in that And yet it is a Sacred not a Civil thing which must be made publick before all the Church vocal and express so binding that none can be loosed from it without the consent of the Church And then it is held at least by many that the Members must prophesy i. e. exercise their gifts in and before the whole Congregation by preaching expounding applying the Scripture by instruction confutation Reprehension with all Authority † Which they say is an Ordinance
the rude and senseless noise which the multitude make with those words only by imitation N. C. But you compare them to Swine C. No. I only compare their cryes together which are both alike unreasonable Do but ask for instance what they mean by Popery and some of these Ignorant Zealots will tell you it is to do that which is practised in the Church of Rome Which is no better than the voice of a Brute If this be Popery all our Religion is Popery We must turn Jews or Turks or Pagans that we may not be Papists And yet that will not do neither for this Popery will still be found among us that we pray and give thanks to God which are actions common to all the world with the Church of Rome N. C. You need not have spent one word to confute such a gross Conceit as this C. True But this sottish Definition of Popery you will be sure to meet withal from some if you will but take the pains to enquire Others it 's like will tell you that it is Popery to do any thing after that manner that the Papists do And then we must never kneel nor lift up our eyes or our hands nor meet together in a Church N. C. Why do you fetch such a sigh C. I sigh to think of the intolerable blockishness of those people that will pretend to know all the Mysteries of God For others who think themselves more wise than the rest will tell you that to use any ceremonies in use among them is certainly Popish And then we must use none at all and so make no outward expression of Religious devotion which must be done in some manner or other or else they must be such as are confessedly absurd and ridiculons Nay all civil Ceremonies and Customes will be forbidden us in time by these men At least for every thing that they hate this shall be the name Popish Antichristian or Babylonish For O. C. himself True Catalogue p. 15. I well remember could not be carried to his grave without their clamours that it was a needless chargeable Popish funeral solemnity because there was black Velvet a Bed of State and a Waxen Image Nay let Monareby look to it self for that is Popish and Antichristian too in such mens opinion and this Kingdom one of the Ten Horns of the Beast And down shall my Lord Mayor go also when they are able as an Image of that Government together with all the pomp and foolery which attends him as their words formerly were N. C. I hope there are no such dangerous persons now among us C It 's well if there be not But you will certainly find some who will tell you that all Ceremonies invented by the Pope are Popish and think themselves much wiser than their Neighbors if upon this ground they furiously rage against our Church But the best of it is that this is nothing to the purpose For none of ours were invented by him The Cross was used among Christian people long before the name or power of the Pope was heard of And so was kneeling and white garments and bowing the body in adoration of our Blessed Saviour N. C. But I have heard some say that it is Popish to do any thing of this nature but what is prescribed by the Word C. This is as sottish as all the rest For it supposes both that nothing may be done in or about the worship of God but what we have a Command for in Holy Scripture and that the Pope and his followers are the only persons who have done any thing not prescribed there Else why should they call it Popish or Romish more than Patriarkish or Greekish N. C. Is not the Supposal true C. No. All the ancient Christians did many things in Divine worship appointed by the Scriptures for which they had no particular prescription there Nay such is your Ignorance you your selves do so too and never mind it For what direction is there to make a new prayer twice or thrice a day And one Prayer before the Sermon and another after To receive the Sacrament of Christ's body and blood in the morning and not after Supper To deliver it into the hands of every person that receives it with Prayer for him or Exhortation to him or both N. C. Pray stay You will let nothing at all be Popish if you be let alone At least nothing of this Nature C. Yes We are taught by our Divines that to ordain such a multitude of Ceremonies as will imploy most of our thoughts and care in time of Divine Service how to do them aright deserves that name Or if we make any of them an essential part of Gods worship or give them power to obtain pardon for us or work grace in us Or lastly it we make them Apostolical and necessary Commands that bind the Conscience as the Laws of God do Then call them Popish and Antichristian or what you please N. C. You say well And I confess I know a little more than I did C. O that you would help to reduce those silly and many of them I hope well-meaning souls who through mere Ignorance and blind prejudice are departed from the grave and sober way of serving God among us to follow their own vain fancies and perhaps conceit they are Witnessing against Popery and the wayes of Antichrist that is against they know not what N. C. I am not come so far yet nor hold my self able to Witness against such persons but this I can say that all is not Popery which is so called C. Nor Superstition neither Though with the same doltish Ignorance they charge us with that vice which they are most guilty of themselves and do not know it As appears by what I told you at our last meeting N. C. They like not your definition of Superstition C. That 's because they like nothing that we say And because it makes them so plainly guilty of that which they condemn But do they like Mr. Calvin's definition of it better N. C. What is it C. You may have met it's possible with his Institutions for they have been long in the English Tongue There he tells you almost in the beginning of the Book Book 1. chap. 12. pag. 41. that as Religion hath its name from binding and is set as contrary to wandring Liberty because it binds men up and prescribes bounds and limits to them in which true Piety consists So Superstition hath its name from going beyond all measures being a humour that will not be bounded nor limited or as his very words are that not being contented with the manner and order prescribed heapeth up together a superfluous and order prescribed heapeth up together a superfluous number of vain things Do you like this I say or no If you do then I will shew you that as in Prayers so in other holy Duties your humour is to keep no measure nor order but to heap up one
perpetual in the Church as we read in Mr. Cottons Catechism Now having devised these things to name no more I observe that the Covenant in the same Church is in one and the same Form of words as well as matter and therefore put into writing and must be read by the party to be admitted or he must hear it read by some other and give his Assent to it Here is not only a Form of Holy Covenant a principal point of worship as W. R. notes invented by one or more men but imposed upon others even as many as enter into the Church and more than that to be read upon a Book What is this better or how is it more lawful than a set form of prayer especially since this Covenant is imposed as an Ordinance of God and absolutely necessary so as no Book-Prayer I think is I find also that by this Covenant the Members in some places † Church of Salem in New-Engl were restrained and tyed up from shewing their gifts in speaking or scrupling till they were called thereto that is they being allowed to prophesie publickly and so to propound questions and make objections which they call Scrupling they bound them up in this Covenant which had the force of Law from doing it uncall'd I would fain know whether this be not to limit the Spirit as you speak and to stint it to times as you say we do it to words For if a man be never so full he must have no vent without a call from the Church And how I pray you doth this differ from an Ecclesiastical Canon as to it's force and obligation but only that it hath another name and all old Canons must be lay'd aside to make way for this new Covenant They tell us also expresly that the Magistrate may compel men to keep their Covenant though not to enter into it † Ib. Narration of Church Courses cap. 15. And for spreading of infectious Doctrines Mr. Wheelwright a Minister and Mrs. Hutchinson a pretended Prophetess were banished the Countrey Several of their followers also were some imprisoned some fined some disfranchised some banished and all disarmed for petitioning the Court in behalf of Mr. Wheelwright and remonstrating with due submission so their words were that they conceived he deserved no such censure a Proceedings of the General Court holden at New-Town Oct. 2. 1637. and the Apology in defence of the proceedings holden at Boston 1636. And great many more remarkable things there are in that story which I cannot stand to recite But must proceed to tell you that as for others who are not of their way there is just no liberty at all For as they will not grant communion to members of other Churches not constituted as they are so if a company of approved godly people should sit down near them where their power reaches differing from them only in some points of Church Government some of them tell us not only that they shall not be owned as a sister Church but also be in danger of severe punishment by the Civil Magistrate b Narration c. cap. 10. N. C. What is all this to our Independents C. They extol both the Men and the wayes of New-England to the Skyes and therefore approve of them I suppose not only as good but as excelling all other The Men they say have testified their sincerity to all generations future by the greatest undertaking except that of our Father Abraham viz. leaving this Countrey to go thither meerly to worship God more purely c Apologetical Narration 1643. pag. 5. And as for their wayes and practices they are improved to a better Edition and greater refinement than those of other Reformed Churches d Ib. which makes it reasonable to believe that when they Covenanted to reform according to the example of the best Reformed Churches they had New-England in their eyes as their pattern For those General words as Mr. Feak e Beam of Light p. 25. rightly observes left it under suspence and undetermined which of the Reformed Churches had obtained the highest degree of Reformation The Scots and their Friends judged the Kirk of Scotland the best Reformed the Dissenting Brethren approved the Reformation of New-England to be most excellent But be this as it will we have learn't thus much from what hath been related that the Churches of a better Edition and greater refinement do not think it unlawful to use forms in Gods holy Ordinances unto which they bind those who come under their Power restraining them also from opening their mouths when perhaps they think themselves full of the Spirit and denying leave to others to set up a different way from theirs in their Neighbourhood As for our Independents I can shew from their Books that they think it necessary to be as severe in a great many Cases 〈◊〉 and I remember as heavy complaints of them as ever they made of the Presbyterians and have been told that they daily spet their renom privately and publickly against those that separated from them a Vanity of the present Churches p. 3. and 11. c. N. C. It will be too long to relate all those things But I would fain know how this will stand with Christian Liberty C. Do you think that it consists in being tyed to no Law at all N. C. None but Gods C. Take heed what you say N. C. In matters of worship I mean C. That 's absurd as I have shewn you Gods Law hath only given us the general rules whereby things to be ordered in the Church according to which our Governors are to make particular Laws and we are to obey them or else there will be nothing but confusion Yet still our Christian Liberty remains because First we are not tyed to this or that pattern or Model but our Governors have liberty to establish whatsoever being in it self indifferent shall seem to them most expedient for maintaining comliness and Order And secondly when any orders are established this is our Liberty as our Divines teach you that we do not use them as any part of Divine Worship as some of you do nor as meritorious and satisfactory nor as necessary to justification or salvation but only for discipline and good Orders sake And lastly by consequence the same Authority may alter them and hath not so tyed up it self to them but that it is at liberty to abolish those in case of inconvenience arising and establish others in the room But such a Liberty as leaves men loose from all Laws and Orders save those that they shall chuse themselves is a wild fancy which your Ministers condemn as well as ours Mr. Dury for instance a very moderate Presbyterian tells the Independent Brethren We must expect no such Liberty as shall break the Bond of Spiritual Unity which by the allowance of a publick tolleration of a different Church Government may be occasioned To keep therefore Unity intire a few must