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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A86482	Certain queres modestly (though plainly) propounded to such as affect the congregational-way, and specially to Master Samuel Eaton and Mr. Timothy Taylor. With an epistle also directed to them concerning their late book intituled A defence of sundry positions, &c. / By Richard Hollingworth, Mancuniensis.	Hollingworth, Richard, 1607-1656.	1646 (1646)	Wing H2488; Thomason E316_16; ESTC R200531; ESTC R233855	20,720	31

of them as of the spirits of the Prophets to the prophets and of Congregational Members though equal one to another be about the minor part where every Elder is left to enjoy the Office of an Elder and each Congregation left to the freedom of the Congregation in what belongs to them and they able to perform where Presbyteries Classes Synods of the same Congregations or their Commissioners in matters of common concernment do strengthen and help particular Congregations walking according to the rule and reduce such as walk not in truth and peace but are leavened with errour and variance and Elders upon a call do teach and rule and perform all Ministrations with reference to and the best advantage of the whole Church of Christ though more specially of those parts of it to which they are most related Also I cannot but observe that there is a difference between your Title-page in which you say indefinitely That the Positions and Scriptures alleaged not some or many of them by me examined are sufficient pertinent and full of power and are manifested yea clearly manifested so to be and some other passages in your Book in which you disclaim the places applyed to Pos 23. as it is by me controverted and are confident they are not found in the Works of any Congregational man d P. 105. And Pos 15. after the Allegation of some Authorities in stead of answering a Text upon which the distinction of Pastors and Teachers is grounded you the one a Teacher and the other Pastor conclude If we do put a false glosse upon the Scripture by mis-interpreting of Ephes 4.11 yet more modest language let any man finde immodestly in that examination if he can had become you brother seeing such Reverend and Learned men whom your self so much honour have gone before us in this Exposition e Pag. 7. ult So Pos 19. do you clearly manifest or so much as assert that the Text Matth. 18. what ever other Texts do doth prove That the Church must be Congregational Pos 20. have you clearly manifested that Matth. 16. proves that the Keys were given to Peter to be used by him for you could not but know that to be the meaning as a Disciple or Beleever not as an Officer f Pa. 93. 1. Pos 12. have you clearly manifested that Col. 4.17 proves the Churches power to censure her Officers when the best Arguments you bring to prove Archippus his faultinesse without which it was no censure amounts but to a strong presumption g Pa. 59. l. 14. and that you know is a weak proof So Pos 2. have you clearly manifested from Adams family that seven eight or nine make a Church when for any thing you Answer Adams family was no more a Church when they were seven or eight then when they were but two or three and do acknowledge notwithstanding your clear manifestation that God hath not precisely determined what number doth make a Church h P. 10. lin 14 33 34. Also methinks you have not manifestly cleared that Revel 8.8 9. is sufficient and full of power against settled endowments in the Church of which Text you say Our brethren present their Exposition as probable they force the Interpretation upon no man And Pos 7. you do not manifestly clear that 2 Cor. 8.5 doth pertinently and powerfully prove that every Member at his admission doth promise to give himself i P. 68. l. 12. to the Church to be guided by them when you say The practice of the Churches of Macedonia by way of allusion is made use of and the Argument is a comparatis k P 44. l. 18. For you know Allusions and Comparisons are not Argumentative And Pos 13. instead of clear manifestation of Ministers maintenance out of the Stock of the Church you say We think we see most warrant for it from the New Testament and as most probable once disputed it but neither then nor now are we peremptory in it l P. 61. l. 5 6 7. Finally to omit more instances when you say We think We conceive it is probable c. or do never so confidently assert any of the several Positions and do not prove the same by the several Texts respectively alleaged nor clear the said Texts from all the Objections made against your Exposition one material Objection unanswered being enough to invalidate the same you afford so many Arguments to any wise Reader that you have not clearly manifested the Positions and Scriptures where such speeches are found to be sufficient c. As for your pretending to prove some Positions and Practises by other Scriptures and Arguments which makes your Book swell so big Suppose you should really so prove them yet that as to mine intent expressed in the Preface is but a by-matter For Positions and Practises may be true and lawful and yet not truely nor lawfully grounded on the Texts alleaged and if I answer them and you produce other new ones we shall contend in infinitum and not come to any issue I could wish we might keep close to the Scriptures and Positions alleaged till they be one way or other cleared and then we may more safely and orderly proceed to other Scriptures and Arguments If the Positions and Scriptures be so clearly sufficient why do you not directly Answer the Examination but obliquely and evadingly in sundry places For instance in the very first words of your first Reply when I alleage one thing viz. That the Apostles never taught or practisied to gather or separate one part of this true Church and another part of that especially persons which themselves converted not to make a purer Church You answer of another thing which was never denyed viz. The Apostles both taught and practised the separating of some Jews from other Jews and gathered them into a Christian Church while yet the Jewish Church you say was not dissolved but was a Church of God But suppose you did solidly prove that the Church of the Jews was then a true Church Yet first it was not a Christian Church nor are the Reformed Churches and Ministers to be compared to the then Jewish Church and the Priests thereof and you should prove Separation from a Christian Church Secondly It was but one Church and you should shew gathering out of several Churches Thirdly It was onely of those Jews which they converted to Christianity from unconverted Jews and you should shew the gathering of Christians converted by others from other Christians converted as well as they and possibly from those persons by whom they were converted Fourthly That Church was then by Gods Commandment to be dissolved and many Churches to be built upon its ruines and therefore doth no more warrant the building of one Christian Church upon the ruine of other true Christian Churches then the Parliaments Commission if there were such a one to the Inhabitants of Derby Hundred to take down Latham house to build them houses

CERTAIN QUERES Modestly though plainly Propounded to such as affect the Congregational-way And specially To Master Samuel Eaton and Mr. Timothy Taylor WITH AN EPISTLE Also directed to them Concerning their late Book Intituled A Defence of sundry Positions c. BY Richard Hollinworth Mancuniensis You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left Deut. 5. If they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them Isai 8.20 If the light that is in thee be darknesse how great is that darknesse Matth. 6. London Printed by Ruth Raworth for Luke Fawn and are to be sold at the signe of the Parrot in Pauls Church-yard 1646. THE EPISTLE Reverend and beloved Brethren I Have perused your defence lately Printed which how able or unable to justifie Independency or to vindicate the Positions and Scriptures time may discover At present I have these few things to advertise you of First you charge me with provoking you to be my Antagonists in Print a In the Epistle from which I was so far that when others rather then my self thought fit the Examination of sundry Scriptures c. which for the most part was an Answer to some Allegations as they were privately made to me for satisfaction should be Printed I gave special charge that neither my own name nor the name of Manchester much lesse the name of other persons and places should be inserted at length in or before the Book though some few Copies came out otherwise lest I should seem either to provoke persons or reveal secrets The deep and heavy charge as you call it b in the first part of my Preface against misinterpretation of Scripture as a belying of God counterfeiting the King of Kings hand c. Though I now see how I have sped I repent not of nor see I cause why you should repine at it or complain of it if you have clearly manifested as in your Title page you say you have the Positions and Scriptures alleaged for your Church-way and by me examined to be sufficient pertinent and full of power And yet I finde my self deeply and heavily charged by you To deprave places to blot and blur sweet humble spirited holy pertinent expressions to wrong the Elders of N. E. to wrest allegations c. Yea though I said I will not tell you who said All the Church is holy ye take too much upon you Yet you think it not unworthy my serious consideration Whether it might not be said to me as sometimes Christ said to one of the twelve when he asked Master Is it I and he answered Thou hast said c Psa 85.15 a bitter personal invective What is your beloved brother your good brother as a Judas or Corah Dathan c I hope in this to say no more we neither are nor shall be Brethren and desire an humble modest Christian Contestation with you which are in your own phrase my Antagonists in Print in this grave controversie and withall calmly to consider what I spake in relation to your cause not to any person whether investing non-Elders with Ministerial power placing Church power in the body of the Congregation and complaining of the Elders that rule over them in the Lord for taking too much upon them be not the gain-saying of Corah a sin of the new as well as of the old Testament Whereof if I be guilty I justly bear this reproach if not you have much wronged me but God hath sent you to do it from whom I deserve much worse though not from you any evil The usual occasion of your censures of depraving places c. is a wide I hope not a willing mistake in you and not any iniquity in my hands or heart You expect the Positions and Scriptures alleaged to agree fully and exactly with the places cited in the Margent which I neither professed nor intended nor could effect without some in mine opinion unfitting alterations of them as they were alleaged to me But on the contrary for evidence that I followed another rule then the Printed Books as at the first coming out of my Book I advertised one of your Brethren I sometimes alleaged no Book at all even where you know I might as Pos 4. Other times that by comparing Arguments that otherwise came to hand with the Printed Books I might probably intimate from whence they were taken and also evidence the truth of what I said in my Preface That Independency for the most part produceth the same Texts in Print which she did in Preaching Writing and Conference I alleaged Printed Books the By-standers mentioned in the Preface with these or the like clauses See your own Defence p. 1 13 14 46 78 90. See almost the same Argument verbatim The like you have This though not so fully This seems to be taken out of These Scriptures are alleaged though not with such tartnesse c. And sometimes I alleaged for one Position the second for example two or three Printed Books differing possibly more then in phrase one from another which are so evident signes that I tyed not my self to the Printed Books that I cannot but wonder that you did not observe it which had you done you needed not to have fought so earnestly and frequently with your own fiction for if it be acknowledged that the Scriptures alleaged witnesse no such thing as they are produced for whether they be in Printed Books or no I as I told you in my Preface have my full end You have also either to bring an odium upon me or the cause I plead sprinkled here and there both unlovingly and unnecessarily some secret intimations of affecting Prelacy whereas I in the worst times was not so much or no more Prelatical then the greatest and godliest Independents in the Kingdom if not at least one of you have been though what ever I was or am that is no Answer to my Arguments nor do I plead the cause of Prelacy which we have Covenanted to endeavour to the utmost to extirpate But of the Government of the Reformed Churches which we have Covenanted to defend against the common enemy maintained by godly learned men our betters known opposers of Prelacy which have obtained a good report in Manchester and the parts about it viz. Master Burn of Manchester Master Gosnol of Boulton Master Fleetwood of Wigan both Master Midsley's of Rachdal Master Storer of Stockport Master Hildersham of Ashby Master Herring of Shrowesbury Master Ball of Whitmore Master John Paget to omit his Brother Master Thomas Paget and multitudes of others now alive Master Hunt of Oldham Master Rathband of Cockey Master Gee of Newton Master ●ilecoat of Stretford c. Nor is the Presbyterian-way a Prelatical-way but a Social-way as between Friends Colleagues Confederates Brethren where all judge and all are judged all things done communi consilio where no Congregation is above another Congregation no Minister above another Minister though the major part