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book_n find_v great_a time_n 2,975 5 3.1999 3 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A70449 A debate concerning the English liturgy, both as established in & as abolished out of the worship of God drawn out in two English & two Latine epistles / written betwixt Edward Hyde ... and John Ley ... Ley, John, 1583-1662.; Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1656 (1656) Wing L1873; ESTC R20804 55,868 88

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upon_o the_o debate_n betwixt_o king_n james_n and_o other_o about_o the_o woman_n baptism_n by_o warrant_n thereof_o the_o king_n urge_v and_o press_v the_o word_n of_o the_o book_n say_v they_o can_v not_o but_o intend_v a_o permission_n of_o woman_n s●_z to_o do_v the_o bishop_n of_o worcester_n say_v that_o indeed_o the_o word_n be_v doubtful_a because_o otherwise_o perhaps_o the_o book_n will_v not_o have_v pass_v in_o the_o parliament_n and_o for_o this_o he_o cite_v the_o testimony_n of_o the_o archbishop_n of_o york_n why_o then_o shall_v those_o who_o have_v power_n to_o reform_a what_o be_v amiss_o be_v confine_v to_o such_o a_o form_n of_o service_n as_o this_o which_o have_v i●_z be_v a_o perfect_a masculine_a issue_n they_o who_o shall_v as_o midwife_n have_v holpen_v to_o bring_v it_o forth_o will_v have_v be_v ready_a to_o strangle_v it_o in_o its_o birth_n yet_o such_o as_o it_o be_v with_o all_o its_o fault_n and_o defect_n they_o give_v their_o vote_n unto_o it_o but_o those_o who_o be_v true_o wise_a and_o godly_a never_o mean_v to_o set_v up_o their_o rest_n with_o such_o a_o reformation_n for_o it_o be_v both_o irreligious_a and_o unreasonable_a which_o some_o prelate_n project_v viz._n instead_o of_o proficiency_n towards_o perfection_n to_o make_v we_o retrograde_a to_o the_o state_n and_o stature_n of_o our_o church_n minority_n and_o they_o may_v as_o well_o put_v down_o preach_v and_o bring_v up_o homile_n and_o mere_a read_v minister_n again_o as_o make_v that_o form_n of_o prayer_n a_o standard_n to_o our_o public_a devotion_n now_o for_o that_o you_o say_v in_o your_o latin_a letter_n where_o you_o call_v the_o service-book_n you_o lend_v i_o before_o my_o library_n be_v bring_v to_o br._n the_o ſ_o habiturum_fw-la most_o glorious_a household-stuff_n of_o your_o father_n which_o you_o say_v be_v precious_a in_o your_o sight_n and_o so_o shall_v be_v for_o ever_o methinks_v you_o honour_v that_o book_n so_o much_o as_o you_o must_v imply_v no_o little_a dishonour_n to_o your_o father_n as_o if_o he_o have_v not_o a_o bible_n in_o his_o house_n and_o no_o less_o dishonour_n to_o the_o bible_n if_o he_o have_v it_o and_o yet_o that_o be_v not_o in_o your_o eye_n a_o more_o glorious_a piece_n of_o householdstuff_n than_o the_o service-book_n be_v but_o though_o neither_o the_o parliament_n nor_o the_o assembly_n do_v either_o admire_v or_o adore_v it_o as_o you_o do_v it_o shall_v not_o have_v be_v so_o contemptuous_o use_v as_o it_o be_v to_o use_v your_o own_o word_n sect._n v._o the_o service-book_n not_o cast_v out_o by_o the_o parliament_n or_o assembly_n as_o a_o menstruous_a cloth_n as_o the_o doctor_n insinuate_v but_o lay_v aside_o with_o honourable_a remembrance_n of_o the_o composer_n of_o it_o and_o with_o approbation_n of_o the_o book_n itself_o in_o divers_a respect_n it_o will_v have_v trouble_v my_o conscience_n 5._o to_o have_v be_v a_o instrument_n of_o cast_v it_o away_o as_o a_o menstruous_a cloth_n 〈◊〉_d h._n and_o if_o any_o divine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n give_v their_o advice_n for_o its_o opp●brious_a ejection_n they_o must_v show_v a_o good_a reason_n why_o they_o alter_v their_o own_o judgement_n before_o they_o may_v hope_v to_o have_v any_o powerful_a influence_n upon_o i_o who_o they_o be_v if_o any_o divine_n at_o all_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n who_o cast_v away_o the_o service-book_n as_o a_o menstruous_a cloth_n 3._o or_o give_v advice_n for_o its_o opprobrious_a ejection_n i_o know_v not_o sure_o i_o be_o that_o i_o be_o none_o of_o they_o and_o for_o my_o brethren_n of_o the_o assembly_n they_o have_v at_o large_a with_o much_o candour_n and_o fair_a deal_n though_o for_o that_o they_o have_v not_o be_v fair_o deal_v withal_o by_o some_o express_v their_o sense_n both_o of_o the_o compiler_n and_o of_o the_o book_n itself_o of_o they_o they_o speak_v very_o honourable_o for_o they_o say_v in_o the_o beginning_n of_o the_o bless_a reformation_n *_o 11_o our_o wise_a and_o pious_a ancestor_n take_v care_n to_o set_v forth_o a_o order_n etc._n etc._n afterwards_o their_o word_n be_v that_o what_o they_o do_v in_o lay_v aside_o the_o service-book_n be_v not_o from_o any_o love_n to_o novelty_n or_o intention_n to_o disparage_v our_o first_o reformer_n of_o who_o we_o be_v persuade_v be_v they_o now_o alive_a they_o will_v join_v with_o we_o in_o this_o work_n and_o who_o we_o acknowledge_v as_o excellent_a instrument_n raise_v by_o god_n to_o begin_v the_o purge_n and_o build_n of_o his_o house_n and_o we_o desire_v that_o they_o may_v be_v have_v of_o we_o and_o of_o posterity_n in_o everlasting_a remembrance_n with_o thankfulness_n and_o honour_n ibid._n p._n 6._o and_o of_o the_o book_n itself_o they_o say_v that_o it_o occasion_v many_o godly_a and_o learned_a man_n to_o rejoice_v much_o in_o it_o at_o that_o time_n it_o be_v set_v forth_o because_o the_o mass_n and_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o latin_a service_n be_v remove_v the_o public_a worship_n be_v celebrate_v in_o our_o own_o tongue_n many_o of_o the_o common_a people_n also_o receive_v benefit_n by_o hear_v the_o scripture_n read_v in_o their_o own_o language_n which_o former_o be_v to_o they_o as_o a_o book_n that_o be_v seal_v so_o preface_n p._n 1_o 2_o the_o worst_a they_o say_v of_o it_o come_v from_o the_o abuse_n and_o the_o worst_a abuse_n be_v that_o it_o be_v make_v no_o better_a than_o a_o idol_n by_o many_o ignorant_a and_o superstitious_a people_n who_o please_v themselves_o in_o their_o presence_n at_o that_o service_n and_o their_o lip-labour_n in_o bear_v a_o part_n in_o it_o have_v thereby_o harden_v themselves_o in_o their_o ignorance_n and_o carelessness_n of_o save_a knowledge_n and_o true_a piety_n p._n 4._o whereof_o i_o find_v too_o much_o proof_n by_o sad_a experience_n in_o some_o of_o those_o who_o have_v learn_v of_o you_o to_o mistake_v erroneous_a superstition_n for_o religious_a devotion_n but_o suppose_v that_o some_o of_o they_o have_v cast_v it_o away_o as_o a_o menstruous_a cloth_n for_o the_o defect_n and_o error_n in_o it_o and_o the_o idolatrous_a dote_n of_o many_o if_o not_o of_o most_o upon_o it_o be_v it_o any_o better_a than_o the_o best_a human_a righteousness_n and_o do_v they_o think_v worse_o of_o it_o than_o the_o prophet_n isaiah_n speak_v of_o that_o where_o he_o say_v we_o be_v all_o of_o we_o a_o unclean_a thing_n and_o all_o our_o righteousness_n be_v as_o filthy_a rag_n isa._n 64._o 6._o if_o i_o have_v serve_v god_n in_o the_o use_n of_o that_o form_n without_o any_o conscience_n h._n i_o have_v be_v a_o hypocrite_n and_o how_o can_v i_o now_o scorn_v and_o revile_v that_o against_o my_o conscience_n and_o not_o be_v a_o apostata_fw-la it_o be_v true_a sir_n 4._o not_o only_o of_o you_o but_o of_o any_o one_o else_o and_o not_o of_o that_o form_n of_o prayer_n only_o but_o of_o any_o other_o that_o he_o who_o formal_o worship_v god_n either_o without_o his_o conscience_n or_o against_o it_o be_v a_o hypocrite_n and_o to_o revile_v and_o scorn_v that_o of_o which_o a_o man_n have_v former_o think_v honourable_o and_o speak_v reverent_o against_o his_o conscience_n be_v to_o play_v the_o hypocrite_n also_o and_o to_o add_v to_o his_o hypocrisy_n the_o sin_n of_o apostasy_n while_o you_o say_v this_o in_o your_o own_o name_n if_o you_o mean_v it_o of_o other_o particular_o of_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o assembly_n or_o at_o least_o of_o some_o of_o they_o as_o perhaps_o you_o do_v you_o have_v answer_n to_o that_o calumniatory_a conceit_n already_o if_o of_o yourself_o your_o word_n imply_v that_o some_o have_v solicit_v you_o to_o scorn_v and_o revile_v the_o service-book_n against_o your_o conscience_n if_o you_o know_v any_o such_o as_o for_o my_o part_n i_o do_v not_o i_o doubt_v not_o but_o you_o will_v be_v more_o ready_a to_o scorn_v and_o revile_v they_o then_o therein_o to_o be_v persuade_v by_o they_o for_o you_o be_v so_o far_o from_o all_o compliance_n in_o that_o kind_n that_o you_o charge_v such_o as_o without_o scorn_n or_o revile_v have_v lay_v it_o aside_o with_o sacrilege_n and_o scandal_n touch_v which_o i_o shall_v answer_v you_o when_o the_o order_n of_o your_o word_n bring_v i_o to_o that_o charge_n sect._n vi_o the_o doctor_n allow_v the_o lay_v aside_o of_o the_o service-book_n so_o far_o as_o justify_v the_o parliament_n and_o assembly_n removal_n of_o it_o by_o the_o example_n of_o hezekiah_n break_v of_o the_o brazen_a serpent_n yet_o with_o some_o mistake_n of_o that_o story_n to_o lay_v it_o aside_o be_v one_o thing_n 6._o to_o revile_v it_o another_o that_o a_o godly_a hezekiah_n may_v do_v h._n if_o he_o think_v it_o a_o nehushtan_n but_o this_o befit_v only_o a_o rabshekah_n that_o may_v be_v out_o
of_o obedience_n this_o only_a out_o of_o peevishness_n or_o a_o worse_a principle_n to_o the_o reproach●r_n revile_v of_o the_o service-book_n i_o have_v answer_v already_o 5._o that_o which_o i_o shall_v now_o observe_v be_v your_o concession_n that_o he_o that_o lay_v the_o service-book_n aside_o if_o he_o be_v a_o governor_n may_v for_o all_o that_o be_v a_o holy_a hezekiah_n and_o a_o inferior_a employ_v in_o prepare_v for_o and_o conform_v to_o such_o a_o reformation_n as_o that_o may_v do_v it_o in_o obedience_n which_o you_o seem_v rather_o to_o approve_v of_o then_o disallow_v if_o so_o you_o have_v yet_o no_o just_a exception_n against_o the_o assembly_n upon_o that_o account_n for_o you_o may_v read_v in_o the_o forecited_a place_n what_o they_o do_v in_o their_o own_o word_n t_o 7._o we_o have_v after_o earnest_n and_o frequent_a call_n upon_o the_o name_n of_o god_n and_o after_o much_o consultation_n not_o with_o flesh_n and_o blood_n but_o with_o his_o holy_a word_n resolve_v to_o lay_v aside_o mark_v your_o own_o word_n to_o lay_v it_o aside_o the_o former_a liturgy_n with_o the_o many_o rite_n and_o ceremony_n former_o use_v in_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n and_o they_o lay_v it_o aside_o not_o as_o you_o mistake_v say_v hezekiah_n do_v the_o brazen_a serpent_n because_o it_o be_v nahushtan_n i.e._n brass_n or_o brazen_a for_o that_o be_v not_o all_o nor_o the_o chief_a cause_n for_o which_o he_o break_v it_o in_o piece_n for_o it_o be_v no_o better_a than_o brass_n for_o the_o matter_n of_o it_o when_o by_o god_n appointment_n it_o be_v first_o set_v up_o by_o moses_n numb._n 21._o 8._o but_o because_o even_o to_o those_o day_n the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v burn_v incense_n unto_o it_o 2_o king_n 18._o 4._o so_o the_o service-book_n be_v lay_v aside_o not_o so_o much_o for_o the_o matter_n of_o it_o though_o what_o be_v erroneous_a in_o it_o and_o some_o error_n certain_o there_o be_v which_o be_v worse_a than_o pure_a brass_n as_o bad_a as_o the_o rust_n or_o dross_n of_o that_o and_o other_o metal_n but_o because_o as_o the_o brazen_a serpent_n it_o be_v make_v a_o idol_n as_o have_v be_v show_v so_o be_v the_o service-book_n and_o so_o be_v it_o by_o many_o to_o this_o day_n which_o be_v not_o so_o much_o the_o fault_n of_o the_o book_n as_o the_o folly_n of_o those_o who_o so_o much_o dote_v on_o it_o and_o so_o many_o dote_v on_o it_o and_o so_o much_o that_o if_o it_o be_v not_o take_v from_o they_o the_o next_o generation_n be_v more_o like_a to_o be_v more_o infect_v with_o than_o the_o present_a to_o be_v cure_v of_o their_o superstition_n towards_o it_o and_o as_o hezekiah_n call_v it_o nahushtan_n i.e._n brass_n or_o brazen_a by_o this_o name_n give_v the_o people_n to_o understand_v that_o be_v when_o it_o be_v the_o best_a but_o a_o creature_n now_o but_o a_o mere_a brazen_a figure_n of_o a_o serpent_n and_o not_o so_o much_o when_o he_o have_v break_v it_o in_o piece_n have_v no_o virtue_n of_o heal_v as_o former_o it_o have_v there_o neither_o be_v nor_o can_v be_v any_o deity_n in_o it_o no_o not_o when_o it_o have_v a_o miraculous_a operation_n annex_v unto_o it_o and_o therefore_o neither_o sacrifice_n be_v to_o be_v offer_v nor_o incense_n to_o be_v burn_v unto_o it_o as_o then_o they_o do_v so_o we_o may_v say_v to_o such_o as_o idolise_v the_o service-book_n that_o for_o the_o material_n of_o it_o be_v but_o ink_n and_o paper_n visible_a letter_n and_o legible_a word_n and_o be_v not_o infallible_o indict_v by_o the_o spirit_n of_o god_n as_o the_o sacred_a scripture_n be_v it_o shall_v not_o be_v make_v such_o a_o object_n of_o worship_n as_o by_o many_o it_o be_v and_o now_o sir_n you_o have_v by_o this_o comparison_n degrade_v the_o service-book_n so_o low_o as_o a_o piece_n of_o brass_n how_o can_v you_o set_v so_o high_a price_n upon_o it_o as_o to_o make_v it_o the_o most_o u_o f._n glorious_a householdstuff_n your_o father_n have_v if_o the_o inventory_n of_o his_o good_n be_v but_o ratable_o prize_v to_o this_o particular_a you_o will_v not_o take_v your_o child_n portion_n after_o that_o rate_n but_o will_v require_v a_o high_a valuation_n to_o be_v set_v upon_o they_o sect._n vi_o the_o constancy_n and_o ingenuity_n which_o the_o doctor_n assume_v to_o himself_o if_o he_o have_v be_v a_o assembly_n man_n act_v by_o those_o who_o be_v choose_v in_o that_o service_n have_v i_o be_v of_o the_o assembly_n 7._o i_o shall_v have_v show_v so_o much_o constancy_n to_o myself_o h._n as_o not_o to_o have_v easy_o change_v my_o judgement_n and_o so_o much_o ingenuity_n towards_o other_o as_o not_o to_o have_v subdolous_o conceal_v it_o have_v those_o who_o office_n it_o be_v to_o make_v choice_n of_o man_n for_o that_o service_n think_v you_o a_o fit_a man_n to_o be_v call_v to_o it_o 6._o i_o wish_v you_o have_v make_v one_o of_o that_o number_n than_o your_o own_o experience_n will_v have_v show_v you_o many_o who_o change_v not_o their_o judgement_n when_o they_o change_v their_o practice_n in_o the_o disuse_n of_o that_o book_n which_o they_o have_v former_o use_v rather_o in_o a_o way_n of_o toleration_n until_o the_o time_n of_o further_a reformation_n come_v then_o of_o approbation_n for_o perpetual_a use_n as_o by_o a_o immutable_a law_n of_o the_o mede_n and_o persian_n who_o be_v in_o that_o particular_a of_o calvin_n mind_n as_o be_v *_o alphabet_n before_o mention_v suffer_v what_o they_o can_v not_o then_o amend_v and_o amend_v their_o own_o condition_n by_o removal_n of_o it_o as_o soon_o as_o the_o divine_a providence_n offer_v a_o fit_a opportunity_n for_o that_o purpose_n and_o who_o be_v so_o far_o from_o a_o subdolous_a concealment_n of_o what_o they_o think_v of_o it_o that_o when_o it_o be_v most_o magnify_v by_o such_o as_o be_v master_n of_o ecclesiastical_a ceremony_n and_o will_v have_v lord_v it_o over_o our_o faith_n if_o we_o will_v have_v be_v so_o tame_a as_o to_o submit_v our_o neck_n to_o such_o oppressive_a yoke_n they_o do_v not_o forbear_v before_o such_o plain_o to_o speak_v their_o opinion_n against_o it_o and_o when_o the_o time_n be_v so_o far_o change_v as_o not_o only_o to_o cry_v it_o down_o but_o all_o other_o set_a form_n of_o prayer_n they_o both_o dispute_v and_o preach_v for_o the_o lawfulness_n though_o not_o for_o the_o universal_a conveniency_n much_o less_o the_o absolute_a necessity_n of_o a_o set_a form_n of_o prayer_n of_o this_o for_o both_o part_n of_o it_o i_o can_v bring_v fair_a evidence_n of_o his_o sincere_a carriage_n in_o that_o cause_n who_o it_o may_v be_v you_o mean_v at_o least_o oblique_o to_o tax_v for_o fickleness_n in_o forsake_v his_o first_o love_n or_o for_o fallacy_n in_o sit_v silent_a when_o he_o shall_v have_v free_o speak_v his_o mind_n and_o conscience_n on_o that_o behalf_n sect._n viii_o the_o removal_n of_o the_o service-book_n as_o before_o show_v be_v neither_o sacrilege_n nor_o just_a cause_n of_o scandal_n as_o the_o doctor_n suggest_v i_o shall_v have_v propound_v some_o consideration_n 8._o before_o they_o have_v determine_v h._n though_o now_o i_o propound_v no_o objection_n after_o their_o determination_n and_o my_o consideration_n will_v have_v be_v special_o these_o which_o you_o do_v intimate_a of_o sacrilege_n and_o scandal_n for_o it_o can_v not_o but_o have_v seem_v unto_o i_o sacrilege_n to_o rob_v god_n of_o his_o worship_n and_o it_o can_v not_o but_o have_v seem_v scandalous_a to_o rob_v he_o of_o that_o worship_n which_o he_o have_v once_o solemn_o devote_v to_o his_o sanctuary_n the_o former_a part_n of_o your_o speech_n seem_v so_o modest_a 7._o that_o have_v you_o still_o contain_v your_o spirit_n in_o such_o moderation_n as_o those_o term_n imply_v *_o 3._o but_o you_o do_v not_o the_o breach_n betwixt_o we_o have_v never_o be_v so_o wide_a nor_o so_o loud_a as_o they_o have_v be_v and_o as_o the_o sequel_n will_v show_v for_o the_o present_a to_o the_o objection_n of_o sacrilege_n and_o scandal_n 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