hard to his charge and there was but two poore places betweene me and the victorie which although he hath ouer me yet it shal not be saied that I lost it easely and he shal not crake or triumph that he came lightly by it Confer now this Example with M. Iewels forsaied wordes The place is before thee and being so plaine as it is it greueth me to spend time in Repeâ—ing and Applying it But M. Iewel goeth further he will not leaue so much as one yeres vantage to D. Harding For If Marianus Scotus accompt be true Note here that you know not your selfe what to answer absolutely then M. Harding reserueth not one yere to himself but yeldeth me backe altogeather Goe to M. Iewel be it so Let D. Harding geaue â—uer all other vantage and let it be supposed which yet is most false that he had brought nothing for the profe of the Publike Seruice in the Uulgare Tonge biside this Historye of S. Augustines planting the Christian Religion in England Thus much only then is concluded y â— iust in the vj. C. yere after Christ what so euer it was before The Publike Seruice was in some place in such a tongue as the vulgare people did not vnderstande And what now shall we say to it Where is the Uictorye On your side or D. Harding But first it would be knowen whether you at the beginning did take the vj. C. yeres Exclusiue or Inclusiue And whether you meant that if to the last day of the six hundred yere any thing should be founde against you you would subscribe Or els that if your Aduersaries Reason were not of an higher Date than the first day of the last yere of the vj. hundred you would vtterly refuse it Well how so euer it be it seemeth now that it is but a deade victorie Or a Stale and that he which will checke M. Iewel must begin againe If Marianus Scotus accompt be true â–ª c. As on the other side if it be false then is he ouercummed by four pore yeres yet as he termeth theÌ„ But consider now Indifferent Reader whether this be manly Dealing or no To refuse the Authoritie that is at this present in the world To set light by the Practise and Iudgement of the Church for ix hundred yeres space To pare euery thing so precisely by the firste six hundred yeres that If it be but a daie longer it must be cut awaie And if it be a few yeres shorter it must be the lesse estemed And if it answer iustly with the yere it self it weigheth in no side What Reason hath M. Iewel or what Example and Scripture for him Is the Truthe of God bound to the first six hundred yeres And must it not passe that cumpasse which M. Iewel hath apointed vnto it Is God a God of six hundred yeres only and not of all time and all worldes Was the Holyghost promised to tary with vs til vj. C. yeres were come and gone and not to the end of the world The kingdome of Christ which should be euerlasting and his power which should not be takeÌ„ awai must it be interpreted now to haue theyr full terme out in vj. C. yeres only What Grace haue the first vj. C Or what curse of God haue these last .ix. C. yeres Now know you also when the first vj. C. ended Or what trust haue you in them which number the yeres vnto you Some Historiographers recken one way Other recken an other way What certaintie then can you haue of theÌ„ Again those writers whome you folow either do at this present liue Or he commended vnto you by them that now line And how dare you trust either those that nowe liue and write of thinges so long sens past Or those that a greate while sens are deade your selfe not then borne to liue with them and examine their doinges Consider also how many haue wryten within the space of these last nine huÌ„dred yeres how perfite in life how Excellent in knowledge how Painfull in studies how Worthy in their owne dayes How Famous with the Posteritie How mete witnesses in the cause of God and triall of a Pure and holy Religion Abbates Monkes Friers are in these new Gospelling dayes termes of great shame and Ignominie yet what sayeth and honest Protestant against S. Bernard Rupertus Thomas Aquinas Bonauenture Dionysius the Carthusian and other such Can M. Iewel finde any fault in theyr life by any Report of brute or Fame Or any Irreligiousnes in their bookes and wrytinges which are extant for hym to consider Let him say his worst Let him leaue poring in Gloses of no Authoritie to finde some mad thing or other against the wisedome of the Church And let him confer his leisure to Reading or Examining rather of these Witnesse according to the State he taketh vpon him whose sayinges he knoweth we esteeme as we ought to doe O sayeth he these were of late daies I graunt â–ª And not only that but also and you will that they were in euyll and corrupt daies But were they corrupted in them Did they not write against corrupt liuing Did they suffer new Preachers and Apostolikes to goe out of the Church or come against y e church by their euil Doctrine Or did they communicate with Pope Cardinals Bishops Abbots or any other of all the world in their liuing Seing they neither fâ—ared hatred nor curred Fauour why should not their Testimonie be receiued no other exception being brought against them but that they liued in so late daies or such A world All is Ungodly All is Unreasonable All is Uaineglorious to appeale to the times so long past As though that God at this present had not his Church in the world Or as though ye could well folow any other but such as you heare with our owne eares Or as though the good and Lerned men of these Later yeres departed this world hundred of yeres sens were not as nigh to the first six hundred yeres as ye are and as ready to folow the best waie as ye Or as though it were A Ioly mater and a compendious waie to the Gospell to contempne all Christendome that now is and holde with that Christendome that was almoste a thousand yeres sens not knowing yet what Christianitie meaneth Nor Daring to trust it if ye knew it were it not for the Authoritie which is at this present in Christendome the Greatnesse of which hath moued you to beleue what so euer you beleue vpon any good ground Here therfore M. Iewel defend your doinges And shew vs the cause wherefore you doe or should refuse the Testimonie of the last ix hundred yeres which are against you If it be not for Childeshnesse or Wantonesse or Unsensiblenesse that you will none of so many and so graue Witnesses yet except you alleage some honest cause and reason It will remayne I beleue that you doe it vpon a very blinde Stomake and
together before Erasmus was borne and of whome you can find no one which hath denied the Dionisius of whom we speake to be S. Paules scholer And I can name some vnto you which haue not only beleued it but for reuerence and worthines of him haue geuen light to his bokes by their Commentaries But consider you M. Iewel in this place whether it be not most true in you that you seeke alwaies how to Destroye or Diminishe all thinges as much as ye can For if there be no false Doctrine in these â—okes nor any thing contrarye to good maners what should it hurt you or your cause to haue men beleue that they be the workes of that Dyonisius which was S. Paules scholar And because you shall see my meaning in an other Example as also haue it noted vnto you that Erasmus whom in disgracing of S. Denyse you bring in as A graue and lerned man is better interteined of you than he deserueth I say Before Erasmâ—s more bold surely than wise in that poynt before he began to play the Censor and by once reading of A Boke ouer to gather A priuate couÌ„cel within his owne heade and geaue A Definitiue sentence against auncient fathers workes or els for them before I say he toke so much vpon him and exequuted it not alwaies discreetly the boke ad Quirinum was embraced as S. Cyprians Erasmus yet putteth the mater in question and after great argumeÌ„ts made Pro et Con w tin himself his finall answer is that probabilius videtur non esse Cypriani it seemeth more probable that it is not S. Cyprians Wel M. Doctor and Censor S. Hierome is witnesse that it is and vseth A Chapiter thereof as an Authoritye of S. Cyprians wherefore you may perceaue that either you haue not seen al thinges either haue not remembred them Or els that your iudgment is not all of the best But let this passe that S. Hierome is directly against you was there any thing in the Boke ad Quirinum hurtful either to Faith or good Maners No verely you find no such fault in the boke Why Disputed you then whether it were S. Cyprians or no And if for your exercise sake you would needes moue the doubt you should better haue inuented an Answer against the Obiection which did hinder the Estimation of it than by needlesse making of it minister any Occasion vnto your Reader to set lesse by such a worke as by much crediting of which he could take no harme For suppose it so that being not S. Cyprians in deede I so loue and Reade the boke as if it were his what daunger hereby is cumming vnto me the Boke being Sound and good whyche I doe Reade But now on the other side the Boke being tried to be S. CypriaÌ„s or if it should not be so tried yet in trueth â–ª being hys yourselfe first doe hurt your owne Fame and Estimation in geauing so rashe A sentence And you cause me to haue leâ—sse mind vnto a good boke and to Suspect that which should not be distrusted So that in letting the titles of Bokes alone as we found them though they shoulde by putting the case so bear false names there is no Iniury done or taken if the booke be alowable but in Changing or Disgracing them when it needeth not for any harme which is to be feared in Reading of the boke it lacketh not a peece of vaine Glorie Or of angry Foly As in our case now M. Iewel of the Boke de Ecelesiastica Hierarchia you tell vs that it is Iudged of such men as neyther you nor we make greate accompt vpon that it can not be the boke of Ariopagita S. Paules disciple that is mentioned in the Actes But to what end tell you me so Is the boke to be Credited or no tell me that Is there any Heresy in it Is there any Irreligion Is there any Folie Is there any thing that you can contemne Or forbid to be readen I can not so thinke of you whereas yourselfe confesse it that the Author of the forsaid boke was An Auncient writer as it may many waies well appeare To what purpose then is it that you â—each vs that he can not be Ariopagita S. Paules disciple For If he be an Auncient and â—â—rthy writer though he should not be so old as an Apostles Scholer what is thaâ— to vs which seke after auncieâ—tnes in writers such as may suppres with graue countenaunce the lusty and high lokes of youthful Scriblers and not such as must be so old that there may not wel be A Superior And if by your owne confession the Author be Auncâ—eÌ„t though his name be not Dionisius Ariopagita what is that to the disproâ—e of the mater which we defend by him Did you thinke M. Iewel by wryring your mind in this fashion not to hinder in any respect the credite of the forsaide boke but only to shew a point of your knowledge And how that you wer not Ignorant what Erasmus Iohn Colet and others I caÌ„ not tel who thought in this mater Uanitie M. Iewel vanitie to make your own Fame the end of your doinges w tout any profit to your reader But said you so much as you haue don that the boke might be disgraced that some Scruple might be cast in the Readers way to trouble him only y â— he shuld not quietly assent vnto y â— contents therof And how can you theÌ„ excuse yourself of blind Foly and Contentiousnesse For whereas S. Denyse the Ariopagite is not he alone that must be credited but euery Auncient writer whome you doe alowe for auncient may well staÌ„d for a witnesse what wiseman would euer enterprise to diminish the Estimation of A Substantiall witnesse by casting in against him of his owne or other mennes Suspition that in some Corners he hath an other name than generally he is taken by And whereas it helpeth your cause nothing at all though Dyonisius Ariopagita were not Author of the boke de Eccles. Hierarch so y â— you deny him not to be an Auncient and credible wiâ—nesse who but Unquiet and Contentioâ—s would labour to make A question about it Surely M. Iewel if you were not more desirous of marring than making and of contrarying your aduersary than agreeing with Reason you should allwaies folowe the more Peaceable and Harmelesse Opinion And whereas you might know that for One Erasmus and Iohn Colet there haue ben in these laste thousand yeres a thousand Lerned men which haue taken S. Denyse the Ariopagite for the Author of the foresaid Boke what Quiet and Good nature would incline to the worse of the two and thynk that more probable which tendeth to the Disgracing so much as it is of a Diuine Excellent peece of worke But if there be no Remedy kepe yourself in your Trade of mistrusting Denying Spoiling the Monumentes of the Catholike and True
for these last yeares no Praise or Speaking of Christ at all How is it credible For being but a maÌ„ how should he not by all likelihoode folow the common course of men And if he would needes be Singular how could he discerne betwene the true and the false Opinions of the first six hundred yeres whereas he should finde Examples and Wrytings of both Or not able to discerne betwene them how could he fasten his minde and beleife vpon any one of them bothe except he were A Singular one in deede For wisemen doe not lightly take that way in which they see not either the Towne plainely before them or some Cawsey Pathes or Steps of feete to direct them Neither doe they vse when they goe in the right way and come at lenght to some turning or duble waie to go forward I can not tell how without loking backe if any folow Or loking about if any be within sight but either rest themselues vntill they spie of whome to aske Or goe so doubtefully forward in that which leeketh them that if better Counsell and teaching come vnto theÌ„ they wil be returned and ordered And if it be so in A corporall and visible way ought it not to be much more so in folowing the right way vnto truth of vnderstanding and knowledge And when the whole world taketh one waie Or diuerse cumpanies in the world folow diuerse waies would any man of Discretion be so Bolde or Foolishe as to goe peaking alone by himselfe in such an Opinion or Imagination as no man byside himselfe aloweth And so directly go in it that to liue and die he would not be brought from it If therefore these fortie yeres last past or what so euer it be more that M. Iewel hath liued in the world nor Christ had bene Preached nor the Primitiue Churche commended he could not vndoubtedly by any good Occasion or Reason haue estemed the Christian wryters of a thousand yeres sens Or geauen any Faith vnto Christ. Except we should thinke otherwise than y â— Apostle hath taught vs y â— faith commeth without hearing Or that no man sent for him yet by some Miracle perchannce he was brought vnto Christ. Of which two both are out of course And without some Extraordinary way of making them likely vnto vs both are Unreasonable both are Incredible The present Fame then Renoume Testimonie of this Age drawing men of this Age vnto Christ yet doth M. Iewel so litle set by it as though it were worthy of litle credite or rather none And he so cleaâ—eth vnto those vj. C. yeres past A thousaÌ„d yeres almost sens as though he could be sure of the Catholike true Faith that was then w tout the Testimonies of the Catholike Church now Or as though some secrete Mistery or Securitie were in them to further him in vnreueled Conclusions And exempt him from all Iurisdiction In so much that although in xv C. yeres rekening which the Church hath continued in as it shall to the worldes end viij yeres can not greatly hurt the Accompt Yet so true an Audite of theÌ„ is kept by M. Iewel that he wil not receiue the Testimonies of the viij yeres next after the first vj. C. but noteth in his Booke their cumming to late though they came very nigh His wordes be these M. Harding knoweth wel that this grauÌ„t to be called The Head of al Churches was made vnto Bonifacius the third which was Bisshope of Rome in the yere of our Lord vj. C. and viij Euen at the same very time that Mahomete first began to plant his Doctrine in Arabia And therfore maketh nothing to this purpose as beiâ—g without the cumpasse of six hundred yeres As who should thinke that within those viij yeres on this side the six hundred The Pope and Emperour with the whole world were Sodainely and Straungely conuerted from the Faith and Order which they were of viij yeres before And no Historie mentioning it were made of Pure Protestants Grosse Papists Yea not only of viij yeres aboue the vj. C. he maketh a sad rekoning towards his Uantage but of the vj. C. yere it self if he can bring D. Hardings testimonie so low he so vaunteth and braggeth as though either himself had the Uictorie Or els nothing should be won or lost For whereas D. Harding for profe of y â— Church Seruice in a Straung Tongue and vnknowen to the Uulgare people and that also within the first vj. C. yeres alleaged the cumming of S. Augustine the Monke and our Apostle into England which was by his accompt the 14. yere of Mauritius Emperor the 596. of our Lord. Master Iewel in answering it sayeth Of the 600 â–ª yeres after Christ whervpon Iioyne wish him issue Liberally and of his owne accord he geueth me backe fiue hundred foure scoare and sixtene And of so greate a number as 600. are reserueth vnto himself foure POORE YERES and yet is not very certaine of the same And then it foloweth But if Marianus Scotus accompt be true that Augustine came into this Realme not the fourtienth of the Emperour Mauritius but four yeres after which was iust the six hundred yere after Christ then he reserueth not one yere to himselfe but yeldeth me backe altogeather Loe what a wise contention here is And how sadly M. Iewel foloweth it Did he thinke with himselfe that none but Children or Idiotes would Reade his Replie And if he prouided to make it so as not only Wisemen should consider it but the Aduersarie also might â—e answered by it how could he for shame of the world so Trifle and Wrangle and Set furth himselfe so much vpon so litle occasion For if the vj. C. yeres shall trie the mater he that cometh four yeres before they be ended commeth time inough to confute M. Iewel And his Cause therefore being lost Or his Bragging at least confounded if in any time before the vj. C. yeres expired the contrarie to this Assertion may be proued Why should he call them foure Poore yeres or set them at naught which making to the number of the first 600. yeres are part of the yeres vpon which he ioyned Issue and are by his apointement of greate Authoritie The crake herein is like as if one should say In all S. Augustines workes you shal not finde this worde Missa and thervpon I wil ioyne with you as though a great point of Diuinitie consisted herein An other answeareth yeas Mary I finde the worde in such and such Sermons Then Replieth the ChalleÌ„ger Of so great a number of Tomes as S. Augustine hath writen of so many bokes in euery Tome c. as far as his Rhetorike permitteth you geaue me backe Liberally And of your owne accord al the sort of them almost and reserue vnto your selfe two POORE SERMONS and yet are you not very certaine of them whether they be S. Augustines or â—oe As if he should say I layed
of things For in this very place which is alleged ouâ— of him for y â— Supremacie of the Church of Rome he saith that when Hunericus had required by his Edict and Commaundement that the Catholike Bishops should by a day meete at Carthage there to haue theyr faith examined and tried Cognoscentibus igitur qui aderamus simul c. Vve then that vvere togeather knovving of this Decree did tremble at the hart especially because of those vvordes of the Edict In Prouincijs nostris à Deo nobis concessis â–ª scandalum esse nolumus quasi id diceret in Prouincijs nostris Catholicos esse nolumus Vvâ— vvil that in the Prouinces graunted by God to vs there be no scandalum or offense as though he should say vve vvil not that any Catholiques be in our Prouincies Him self therfore being then present when Hunericus Edict came to the Bishops of Aphrica and that persequâ—â—ion of the Uandales beginning about the yeare of our Lord. 435. no man should reasonablie doubt of the age in which Uictor liued But these thinges you say are not wel knowen If they be knowen it is inough As for the wel knowing of them you are either so suspitious or malicious y â— I feare it wil neuer be wel knowen y â— which commeth directly against your Procedinges For how easy a mater is it to deny and doubt and obiect and finde faulte and make somwhat alwaies lacking You finde the Boke extant and that before this age in which your Heresies haue vpstarted and the Catholikes haue sought to suppresse them You see it alleaged You see it allowed you bring nothing againste it neither that it was â—ound of late neither that the phrases of Speach are vncongrue and barbarouse neither that he hath any fault in his storie neither that graue and learned men haue doubted of him nor ani other exception which maie take Credite away from it And what reason then is there in it that you should make strife and contenâ—ion where none was before and rather folow your owne Negatiue without any cause or probabilitie than the Catholikes Affirmatyue which bring furth the Euidence of the booke it selfe for them Maie we thinke you to haue any regard to the first six hundred yeres Or any Reuerence towardes Auncient writers which are so loth to admit the bokes that come furth in their names and so Ready to make all the Exceptions that ye possibly can Or Suspitions against them It is not wel knowen say you of what Credite he was or when he lyued Is it not well knowen If he made in any point for the Lutherans or Sacramenâ—aries opinion you would not only haue knowen hym wel but also praised him excedingly but now becasue he confirmeth the Catholike Faith and declareth such cruell practises of the Barbarous Uandales then against the Catholike Priestes and Bishopes as are most lyke the merciful Procedings of the Gentle Gospellers of these tymes againste the Catholikes And because he preferreth the Church of Rome before all other Churches And praieth to the Sainctes And sheweth hymselfe most Euidently to be A Papist you knowe hym not and you regard hym not So that you be ruled by Affections and not by Reasons and you passe no more vpon Antiquitie sauing for y â— fasshion that al lerned and wise men doe make accompte of it than you doe vpon your rochet gowne typet fower cornerd Cap and other such thinges that goe cleane againste the Conscience sauing that you condescend therin vnto the weakelings as yet in your faith least you should make them werys of you altogether Yet although you be very wyse hypocrites out breaketh for al that sometymes the Iesting and Scoffing inward Sprite that in open Sermoâ—s and printed Bokes speaketh of the holy and old Fathers ful Reâ—erently As shal by most manifeste examples appeere S. Benet how Uertuous wyse holy Contemplaâ—iue and Diuine a Father he was if the world that hath bene euer sâ—ns would or could saie nothing S. Gregorie alone hath saied inough Which being now â—ope and to good a man to mynd vnprofitable tales and to muche occupied to intend it in writing fower bookes of notable and worthie men and mâ—ters the Second he bestoweth vppon S. Benet alone Declaring suche thinges in it as he had heard of most Reuerende Fathers and S. Benets owne Scholars Constantius Valentinianus Simplicius and Honoratus by reading of whiche the Faithful coulde not but be moued to beleue that God is VVonderfull in his holy ones and that his frindes are excedingly honored In tellinge then many thinges of S. Benet he cummeth at length vnto this VVhen a certaine younge Monke of S. Benets had vppon a tyme gone out of the Monasterie vvithout his blessinge home to his Father Mothers house vvhich he loued more then he shoulde haue done the selfe same daie as sone as he vvas come vnto them he dyed And after he had ben novve buried his bodie the next daie vvas founde caste vp vvhiche they prouided to burie againe But they founde it the nexte daie cast vp againe and vnburied as before Then loe they ranne vvith speede vnto â—ather Benets feete and vvith muche vveepinge desyred hym to be so good as to graunt hys fauour aend mercie vnto hym To vvhome the Man of God gaue straite vvaye vvith his ovvne handes the Commâ—nion of our Lordes bodie saieng Gâ—e ye and put ye this bodie of our Lord vppon his breaste and so burie hym VVhich as sone as it vvas done the earth toke and kepte his bodie and caâ—st it vp no more Thus far S. Gregorie But whaâ— saieth M. Iewel to the mater Forsath his sentence is this It was but fondly done by S. Benet as Gregorie reâ—orteth of hym to cause the Sacrament to be laied vpon a dead mans breast Was it but fondly donne Howe dare you so interprete the fact of an Auncient and holy Father How dare you dissent from the Opinion that S. Gregorie and other elder Fathers whom he folowed had of it Are you he that regardeth Antiquitie Are you he whom one sufficient sentence of any Catholike Father or Doctor shal make to yeld The fact you doe not denie Against the workeâ— of it you bring no exception S. Gregorie the Reporter of it lyued within the first six hundred yeres And he reporteth it to the Praise of S. Benet And the effect whiche God gaue declareth that it was not mislyked and how â—are you say it was but fondly done But this is it that I say Though you looke demurely vpon Reuerend and old Fathers and speake as though you regarded their wordes and deedes yet sometymes your Sprite is so moued in you that from the pytte of your harte it cummeth vp to the typ of your tongue and boldly geaueth sentence against those persons whom the whole world for age Holynes Lerning and Iâ—dgement doth worthely esteeme and whom yourselfe dare not dishonour but couertly Wherefore that
Gheasse as M. Harding doeth why may he not thus Imagine with hymselfe If this Woman would thus dissemble in a Case so daungerous what needed her to take the Bread at her Maides handes And specially at that Time in that Place And in the sight of the whole people Or how could she so openly Receiue it without Suspition Or why might she not haue brought it in A napkin secreetly aboute herself The burthen then was not greate Her faining and hipocrisie had ben the easier Thus sayeth M. Iewel Why maye not A man Imagine with himselfe if he list But wil ye know why not I will tell you No man ought to make such A Glose as shall marre the Texte Nor Imagine that whiche goeth Directlye againste the Literall Sense of an Historye For the Historye the credite whereof you maie not disgrace you sayed before maketh expresse mention of breade taken at her Maides handes And of the same receyued by the Maestres in the open Church And of her faining and Hypocrisy how it was confounded And this now is done and past aboue A thousand yeres sens And how it was done it remaineth in wryting But you neuerthelesse come in with your Listing and Imagining Not to find out that by probable Conicâ—tures which lieth hid in the Storie but by cleane Contrarie and froward Fancye destroying the very Literall state and Description thereof And to this effect as thoughe that the Sleight of a womans wit were litle worth you adde of your owne inuention A further fetch Which perchaunse the woman would haue folowed if she had knowen it in tyme but now after all is done to aske what neede she had to take the Breade at her maides handes Or to wonder how she could so openly Receiue it without Suspition Or to teache her that she might haue brought it in a napkin Or to perswade with her that the burthen was not greate as thoughe the gentelwoman had bene so tender and fine y â— she could not haue caried y â— weight of A Singing cake more then her Ordinarie Or to Conclude with her that her Faining woulde be the Easyer thus I saie when all is past remedie to feede your owne Fancie or fill your Readers eares with so long and so vaine A tale It is to simple for any womans wit For Imagine you as much as ye lift that she neded not to take the bread at her maides handes The Storie so plainely testifying that she toke it what must folow No other thing surely but that the Storie is vnlikely And so of euery other of the Circumstancies which your man that hath A list to Imagine gathereth of that which hymselfe thinketh meete to haue ben done what other thing foloweth but that the Storie which reporteth the Coutrary to haue ben done is very vnlikely and Incredible Such a Fauorer you be of Antiquitie and promising at the beginning of your Answer not to disgrace the credite of this Storie you fall afterwarde into such A path of your accustomed Rhetorike that by A Figure of listing and Imagining and by certaine howe 's and whyes ye destroye A plaine fact and confessed Who maye trust you in Obscure or Long maters which is an Euident and Short historie doe so boldly argue against it No wonder if you perswade your Felowes or folowers to Discredite Clemens Abdias Hippolitus Martialis Athanasius and all the whole Boke of Degrees and Decretals which haue the Grace and Feate to let an Historie stand for true and yet so rightly to Gheasse at it that If the gesse be True the historie must be False The Historie saith the Gentelwoman toke the Breade at her maides hand M. Iewels or his Gheasse that by hys graunt lifteth is What neede she how could she without Suspition Why might she not haue brought it in a napkin c. Now whether D. Hardinges Gheasse as M. Iewel termeth it concerning the Receauing in this place vnder one kind only be as vnhable to stand wyth the historie as the Imaginations which M. Iewel hath here rekened vp for greater than the Sleight of a womans wit did atteine vnto let the Indifferent Reader conferre and iudge My proper intent and purpose was to shew by this Example how M. Iewel can speake so fauorablie of the Auncient Histories of the first vj. C. yeres as though he would not Discredite them And yet how in deede he practiseth with suche Libertie or Licentiousnesse rather against them as thoughe what him listeth to Imagine might be better alowed and liked than the fact it selfe which the Historye wytnesseth But let vs trie M. Iewels fidelity in an other Example What say you to the Liturgie of S. Iames I trust you will not make exception against it that it was found very lately in the I le of Can die Or sought out and found and set abroade of very late yeres Or that it is a very little boke of smal price lateli set abrode in print about vij yeres past which are so greate maters in your Iudgment that for these causes you will repell an Authoritye I trust that you haue no such thing to laye against S. Iames Masse For by the testimonye of an auncient Councel we vnderstand that S. Iames wrote a Liturgie or forme of a Masse What saye you then vnto it It may be doubted of you say And why so For S. Iames Liturgie hathe a speciall praier for them that liue in Monasteries And yet it was very rathe to haue Monasteries built in al S. Iames time You meane I thinke y â— there were no suche Monasteries then built as of late haue ben pulled downe in EnglaÌ„d large fair CoÌ„modious places for holy purposes w t Church Cloister Capiter house Refectory Dormitorie Infirmatorie bisides Reuenues laÌ„des for euer left ther by Deuout Noble and worthy Men women to that end that God might be serued of men and women accordingly the religious hauing all things prouided vnto their haÌ„ds might serue him quietli But what theÌ„ The forme accidentes of an house do not make a Monastery no more then y â— maner of aparel doth make a Monke And although in the Apostles time no suche peace or glory was in the church y â— by great buildings or teÌ„poralties it was known estemed in y â— world yet without all doubt the Ordres and Rules emong some Christians of that time so rathe as you call it were so religious and well appointed that S. Iames might well praye for suche as liued in a singular manner and fasshion of a Monasticall and Spirituall life I will not trouble you with many witnesses in a mater so plaine and euident I referre you to Eusebius and He wil direct you to Philo Iudeus which liued in the time of the Apostles and wrote suche things as himselfe knewe to be pâ—actized of Christians before the name of Christians was well knowen abroade First he testifieth of them that they renounced all their goods
which you gather against S. Chrisostomes Masse saying Chrisostomes Liturgie praieth for pope Nicolas â–ª c. And likewise in the same Liturgie there is A Praier for the Empire and victorie of the Emperour Alexius c. Now it were very much for M. Harding to sai Chrisostome praied for meÌ„ by name seuen hundred yeares before they were borne I trow that were prophesiyng and not Praying Your troweing is Reasonable And if S. Chrisostome should be affirmed vnto me to haue praied for A Pope and an Emperour borne fiue or six hundred yeres after him I could not but suspct the mater But will you examine and consider it no better Or will you geaue sentence against a Boke before you haue seen the Copy of it Why you will Answer me that you read in the printed Liturgies which are now extant and attributed to S. Chrisostome the names of Nicolas Alexius Yea but where read you that S. Chrisostome vsed those Names when he came to his Memento in his Masse Why say you did not he speake euery worde as it is now expressed vnto vs in Print that he did speake No forsothe concerning the names For in setting out the forme of A Masse the most of the thinges that should be folowed he might so appoint that they should neuer neede to be chainged As the maner of cumming to the aultare Of standing tarying there Of Bringing thither y â— bread that should be consecrated Of putting wine and water togeather Of Praying alowde Of Praying Secretly Of Drawing the curtaines Of shewing the Sacrament Of receauing the Sacrament and so furth the maner I say of these thinges might so be Inuented or Deliuered at the first that they might if it pleased the Posteritie wel continue for euer after But whereas in certaine places of his Liturgie he would haue special mention made of the holy Sainctes in heauen or some singular Persons on earth could he put presentli al their names in whom he would haue to be remembred in those places In deede that required A gift of Prophesying which in this place needed not For in all Formes and Paternes not only of Publike Seruice but also of Common and temporall matters as the Stiles of Princes the Tenours of Indentures and Obligations The maner of Inditements c. the rest of the wordes are expressed as they shall continue only when the place commeth where the Persons name must be specified to whom the cause perteineth there is no certaine name Defined but A great N. set to keepe the roome and to signify that when you put that forme of write in Practise you shall place the partyes Name where that letter standeth So was it in S. Chrisostomes Liturgie The Forme wherof being wel liked and therefore copied out that it mighte goe abrode and continue was not chainged in any point concerning the maner of Celebrating and Praying which presently then might be defined But where as he maketh in Distinct places of hys Masse speciall mention of the Sainte whose feast shall happen to be celebrated that daie and of the Patriarche and Emperour which should be aliue when hys Masse would be saied he could not presently put in their Names What remained then but that he shuld put in such a phrase as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by which it should be declared y â— what so euer Sainct Patriarch or Emperour he were there his name shuld be rehersed where y ◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª was found to stand Yet this notwithstanding who can let but he that would might in copying out the Liturgie apply it to his owne time name the Emperour then liuing But when y â— Emperor shal afterward depart his name must be scraped out to geaue place to an other except priestes shuld alwaies do so much w tout boke as to pray for the Emperor y â— liueth though y â— name of the dead Emperor coÌ„tinue in y â— Masse boke Of the name therfore of either Patriarche or Emperour which is specified in some Liturgie no Argument can be made y â— the forme therof was not extant before the Persons therin expressed were borne but only that when they liued and Ruled in those quarters they were praied for in the Publike Masse But of this mater how some Copies haue the name of Nycolas vniuersall Patriâ—â—ch â–ª 〈…〉 â—lexius And the Greeke Liturgies printed at Uenys and Parys haue no expresse mention of any though speciall Praier be made in them both for the Patriarch and Emperour Also by what occasion Nycolas and Alexius names came in Againe how the Nycolas whom you speake of was not y â— Pope of Rome which liued 200. yeres before Alexius but the Patriarch of Constantinople which liued at one time with him And in conclusion how euidentlye it may be perceiued that this Liturgie which is said to be Chrysostomes was in very deede that blessed Doctours making of all this Master Pointz in his Testimonies for the Real Presence hath spoken truly abouÌ„dantly There may he y â— will see find how absurdly and Ignorantly M. Iewel hath argued For me it is inough to declare that he make light of the Authors within y â— first vj. C yeres And y â— he hath no other shift but to deny theÌ„ And y â— his reasoÌ„ vpon which he grouÌ„deth his opinioÌ„ in refusing some of theÌ„ is so feble vain y â— as it coÌ„firmeth his purpose nothing at al so it declareth y â— he hath a very light head of his owne and a very Presumptuous mind which vpon small Occasion yea rather against all Occasion was so ready to take authoritie away from that Liturgie which both the Greeke Church vseth And the Latin aloweth for Chrisostomes owne But thoâ— seest not yet Iâ—different Reader the worst of M. Iewel As in some examples more I will make plaine vnto thee and so end this Chapiter Of Dionisius Ariopagita in whom expresse and reuerend Signes or Examples of the Catholike Religion or Popishe is to be seen thus he saieth Dionisius althoughe he be an Auncient writer as it maie many waies well appeare yet it is iudged by Erasmus Iohn Colet and other many graue and Learned men that it can not be Ariopagita S. Paules Disciple that is mentioned in the Actes I will Answer you with your owne wise Reason which you make Agaynst S. Bernard Lyra Teutonicus and Bessarion and in your Termes I saye vnto you Erasmus and Iohn Colet liued at the least xv C. yeres after Christ wherfore their Authoritie muste needes seeme the lesse Here If you like your owne Reason you be Answered If you mislike it I am glad that you are wiser than you were wont to be Yet I doe not refuse Erasmus or D. Coleâ—s iudgment because they were of late yeres but I preferre the Grauitie Learning and Number of their betters and their elders Those I meane which liued and florished A thousand yere
〈◊〉 in one case may 〈…〉 〈◊〉 that 〈…〉 haue you that haue 〈◊〉 â—aith remayning yet vnto you And â—ou that haue no sâ—ith And mynde 〈◊〉 knoweth when 〈◊〉 for all that 〈…〉 it 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 them selues wil not in some pointes speake against it For now not to beleue the Canonical Scripâ—ures who dareth And how greate cause hath A fainte and weake harte to assent vnto them whiles the enemies of the Catholike faith doe not openly denie them But when hereaftâ—r Iniquitie and Impudencie shall so aboâ—nde â–ª that faith shal be measured by Reason and not by Authoritie and when by litle and litle men shal be accustomed to conteâ—â—e mocke the Appariâ—ions made vnto holy persons by Angels Saintes the Mother of God or Christ hymselfe and lyken them to fables and Illuâ—ions of the 〈◊〉 Poetes and wicked Sprites that raigned â—mong the Panymes what credite wil be geaueÌ„ shortly after to the Scriptures themselues Wil not the Commyng of the three Angels to Abraham and the Feast which they toke at his handes wil not the wrastling of the Angel with Iacob a whole â—â—ght longe together wyl not the Angels that appeered to Agaz Iosue Balam â–ª Manâ—e Dauid Elias wil not the fiery Chariots that Elizeâ—s saw wil not the Terrible horse wâ—th one in golden armour sitting vpon him and two goodly and glorious yong men in bewtifull apparel which scouâ—ged Heliodorus that would haue spoyled the Orphanes and wydowes and other of their goodes that late in safe keepinge in the Temple of Hierusalem wil not the Angels appeering to the Maries and the Apostles al in white and the Angel that byd S. Peter aryse and put on his hose and shewes wil not al these thinges be quikly and desperately resembled to the conuersations which Homers Goddes and Goddesses had with such as they fauored Nothing is so easie as to cal thinges into doubt to disgrace a true and holy Storie by obiecting a lyke vnto it of the telling of Idolatours or the making of Poetes In which kind of Confounding Marring and Spoyling of thinges M. Iewel hath a Folissh Grace and if he had any Reuerence to Old and Approued Stories he woulde neuer haue ioyned Sozomeâ—us and Homer together He therefore that hath Faith let hym thanke God for it and praie for the increase he that hath none but is negligente or Indifferent let hym thinke aduysedly vpon the sauing of both soule and bodye and make speede to beleue the Scriptures themselues whiles so litle contradiction is against them For other writers then afterwardes let hym consider whether it will stand with saluation to beleue none or whether it be of necessitie to admiâ— al Or whether it can agree with any reason and constancie to contemne them whome he hath for good cause once alowed In beleuing nothing but Scripture there is present daunger For by that Reason Scripture it selfe can not be â—redited because it is not writen in all Scripture In beleeuinge euery thing there is absurditie because of so many Contradictions and Contrarieties as are found emong Writers In beleuing of certaine bookes not yet as Scripture but as the bookes of Lerned Auncient and Generally receiued Authors and sayinges as worthie to be credited and esteemed as our owne opinions there is wisedome and discretion But â–ª if as M. Iewel hath geauen most shameful Examples any man wil contemne the selfesame whome he would seeme to allowe that is such a point not only of Hypocrisie but of Iniurie also that as he should BEWARE OF M. IEWEL for it so should â—e take heed to hym selfe least he fal in it How M. Iewel vseth the selfesame testimonies of the first six hundred yeares against whiche he bringeth Exceptions when his Aduersarie allegeth them THus far then we are come against M. Iewel y â— I haue proued him to â—ind y â— Catholikes vnto y â— first six hundred yeres bysides al reason and equitie And that hymselfe alleageth Authorities of later yeres with all holdnes and libertie Thirdly that he wil not stand to the witnesses of the first six hundred yeres vnto which he appealed so precisely Aâ—d what is there now that maie be added vnto his Chiualrie For in deede this maie be well called his Chiualrie to prouoke as it were al the world and to make conditions such as 〈◊〉 hym and when the battel increaâ—eth â–ª to chainge his armour to put on a 〈◊〉 face to denie that he alowed to alow that he denied In which as he hath shewed hymselfe like as I â–ª by Examples haue declared A 〈◊〉 so what he maie or hath addâ—d therunto to would be considered And I find that his noble Courage and tried Magnanimitie is so greate that the selfe same Authorities against which he fought too the and naile in the Chappiter before he hymselfe in his owne proper person aloweth in other places of his Replie and vseth for substantial and good Argumentes This to proue at large were very easie but in recompense of the last Chappiter before which hath been longer than my opinion I wil make this preseÌ„t one shorter than my first determination And shortnes also maie wel be taken wheÌ„ the mater is in sight that is to be proued I saie therefore Against S. Chrysostomes Masse M. Iewel doth argue in the 10. page of his Replie And not only reasoneth simplie that it can no◠〈◊〉 his but taunteth also them preâ—ily that would haue it to be S. Chrysostomes But â–ª how much he is deceaued in his Aâ—gument and how litle cause he hath to dalie as though he had the victorie it is sufficiently declared alreadie fo 53. of this booke The same M. Iewel in the 89. and 90. page of the Repliâ— where the place of S. Chrysostome There is none to Communicate is layed against hym there I saie he vseth the testimonie of this Liturgie conâ—esseth it to be S. Chrysostomes For these be his wordes Chrysostome himselfe in his Liturgie saith thus Againe But what needeth much proufe in a Case that is so plaine Chrysostome hymselfe in his Liturgie that Commonly beareth his name foloweth the same order Againe This was the order of S. Chrysostomes Masse touching the Clergie and that by the wytnesse of S. Chrystostom himselfe Note the wordes Indifferent Reader and see what proportion is in M. Iewels doeings That Liturgie which before could not be S. Chrysostomes because it praieth for Pope Nicolas and because A praier is there for the Empire and Victorie of the Emperour Alexius and because I trowe it were prophesieing and noâ— praieing that Chrysostome praied for men by name seuen hundred yeres before they were borne that same nowe is S. Chrysostomes by M. Iewels owne confession And not only S. Chrysostomes but Chrysostomes hymselfe For herein also is a greate strength that y â— place which was obieâ—ted against hym beinge taken out of S. Chrysostome he thought to adde a Grace
vnto his Answere by continuinge in the testimonies of the selfe same Doctour and by making S. Chrysostome to agree with S. Chrysostom And so he repeateth oftentyme Chrysostome hymselfe sayinge Chrysostome HYMSELFE in his Liturgie Chrysostom HIMSELFE in his Liturgie Chrysostom HIMSELF in the Liturgie The very order of Chrysostomes Masse by the witnesse of Chrysostome HYMSELFE As though that nothing were so much to be feared as that some lyke hymself would deme it to be S. Chrysostomes Liturgie and then should he leese a good Argument Therefore he setteth the Booke furth very wel and nameth it the Liturgie of Chrysostome hymselfe and maketh so muche of it that he signifieth it to haue in it self Authoritie inough to proue an assertion without any more wordes For thus saith M. Iewel But what needeth much proufe in a case that is so plain Chrysostome himself c. As if he should saie That the Clergie receiued in olde time with the Priest that celebrated I haue proued it by the Canoâ—s of the Apostles by Pope Anacletus 〈◊〉 by the Councel of Nice 〈◊〉 Laodicâ—a and of Toledo But what needeth much proufe in a case that is so plained I could allege more witnesses Antiquitie is ful of Examples The case is cleare and â—uident But to be short I wil bring one Testimone for al. And what is that Mary Chrysostome him selfe â–ª Where I pray you In the Liturgie Why did Chrysostome euer make any Where should one find it By what note might one know it In the Liturgie saith M. Iewel that coÌ„monly beareth his name Speake you that to the discoÌ„mendacion oâ— pâ—aiâ—e of it◠〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 as though it were not S. Chrysostomes in deede but â—are only his name how agreeth it that Chrysostom him selfe should witnesse any thing by this Liturgie For if you should haue said no more but this Châ—ysostome in the Liturgie that coÌ„monly beareth his name c you might haue ben thought to haue called it S. Chrysostomes Liturgie because other so name it and no certaintie might be gathered 〈◊〉 of your owne opinion and iudgemâ—â—◠〈◊〉 now in saying Chrysostom him self c you declare by y â— addition of the Pronoune him selfe that your opinion is s. Chrysoâ—tom euen â—e that made the 61. Domelâ—e ad populum Antiochen to be the very Aâ—thor of this Liturgie If therefore you cast not in these wordes that coÌ„monly beareth his name to the dispraise or discredite of the Liturgie then haue you not only confessed that Chrysostome him selfe should be maker of it but farder also you teach vs to find out that Liturgie by the title of y â— booke and name of s. Chrysostom which it commonly beareth either you make A good ArgumeÌ„t against singular and precise Heretiques which wil needes haue thinges otherwise to be taken then commonly they are called Now if you dyd put in the forsaied words that commonly beareth his name neither to the praise nor dispraise of the Liturgie but as it came to your mynde so you lette it fall out into the Paper that which might wel inough haue ben spared let so take it then And what remaineth but that Chrysostome himselfe muste be 〈◊〉 vndoubted Author of this Liturgie by your conclusion Otherwise you haue not proued by Chrysostom himself that the Priestes and Deacons whiche no man denieth receiued with the Bishop or Chiefe Exequutor at the Aultare if the Liturgie by which you proue it be not S. Chrysostomes owne Ergo say I now whereas M. Iewel in the 10. page of his Replie disproueth the Liturgie of S. Chrysostome And in the 89. and 90. of the same Replie affirmeth S. Chrysostome hymselfe to saie that whiche in the Liturgie is affirmed It is most plaine and euident that the selfesame Authorities of the first six hundred yeres which he wil destroie and denie rather than his Aduersarie should vse them he yet hymselfe will occupie at his pleasure and make a great shew and countenance that he is a folower of Antiquitie In like maner in the. 66. page of his Replie he argueth against a Decree of Soter Bishop of Rome and in the. 76 page folowing he applieth the selfe same Decree to his purpose Read and consider y â— places them selues you to whom M. Iewels sayinges are pretious I wil note only the brief some of the whole mater Soter Bishope of Rome saith D. Harding made this statute or decree That no Priest should presume to celebrate the solemnitie of the Masse except there were two present and answere him so as he himselfe be the third For whereas he saith Dominus vobiscum Our Lord be vvith you and likewise in the Secretes orate prome Pray forme it semeth euidently coÌ„uenient that answere be made to his Salutation accordingly Now of this Decree he gathereth that aâ— tâ—e 〈◊〉 were not present of necessitie â—t the Seruice and much more y â— al did not receiue with the Priest when so euer he celebrated For it had ben vnreasonable so earnestly to prouide by a solemne Decree that without the presence of two moâ—e besides him selfe no Priest should be so 〈◊〉 as to celebrate if the general necessarie practise of that time had so defined it that al the parish should communicate or that without a number of Communicantes there shoulde be no Masâ—e said at al. This Decree therefore which so euidently destroyeth the position of M. Iewel see how he laboreth to disgrace First he setteth men togeather by the cares as it were with Som saâ—e this decree was made â—y Pope Anacletus Some others saie by Soter And so whiles some say one thing some an other be thinketh that the quiet Reader which loueth concord and peace â–ª wil folow his resolution which is to follow none of the both but 〈…〉 an opinion of his owne that it is 〈…〉 nor 〈◊〉 his decree After this he falleth into a common place that It was euermore the common practise of Deceiuers to blase their doings by the names of such as thei knew to be in estimation in the world And in this place to let passe Homer Hesiâ—de Ticero Plautus he allegeth S. Paul 2. Thess. 2 And counterfeite Gospels and workes in the name of Peter Thâ—mâ—s and other the Apostles Concluding that we ought the lesse to merueil if the like haue happened vnto Anacletus Euaristus Soter c. So that y â— CoÌ„clusion is brought to an If. Thirdly he speaketh Iâ—d 〈◊〉 â—â—gainst the Decretal Epistles Alleaging 〈◊〉 that thei haue been doubted of among Learned men aâ—d D. Smith although his auâ—thoritie be not greate that thei can not possiblie be theirs whose names thei beare Fourthly he confirmeth D. Smithes sayinges by certaine reasons not of D. Smiths but of his owne as These Decretal Epistles manifestlie depraue and abuse the Scriptures Thei maâ—ntaine nothing so much as the kingdom of the Pope Thei publish a multitude of vaine and superstitious Ceremonies Thei proclaime such thinges as
the Canons of Auncient Councels But as I doe grauÌ„t vnto you that the Councel of Laâ—dicea hath that such only bookes as are of the old new TestameÌ„t should be readen in the Church so that y â— like also is declared as you boldly say in the Councel of Carthage it is so manifestly vntrue y â— it may not be suffered For these are the verie wordes of the Councel Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas â—ihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine Diuinarum Scripturarum that is Vve like it also that nothing besides the Canonical Scriptures be readen in the Church in the name of the Diuine Scriptures The Councel therefore forbiddeth not other things bysides the Canonical scriptures to be readen in the Church but it prouideth that nothing be readen there as in the name of Scripture which is not true Scripture in dede And this appeereth most euidently by other wordes which folowe in the selfe same Canon where it is sayed Liceat etiam legi Passiones Martyrum Cum Anniuersarij eoruÌ„ celebrantur Be it lauful also to haue the Passions of Martyrs readen vvhen their yerely Daies are celebrated and kept holy By this it is most euident that other thinges bysydes the Canonicall Scriptures as the Passions of Martyrs such vndoutedly as we haue for a great part in the Legends of the Church were permitted to be readen in the publike Seruice And that M. Iewels comparison that the Lessons then read in y â— Church were taken out of y â— holy Bible ONLY as he meneth as it is now vsed in the church of England hath no agreablenes and Proportion For whâ—t one Martyr is there in al the whole booke of the Common praier of England S. Sâ—euen only excepted which hath any Festiual day appointed out for him or any storie of his Passion declared But like perfite Diuines you wil no other thing but Scripture onely readen in your Churches in which pointe you would be seene to follow the Councel of Carthage You deceaue the people by your glorious lying The Counâ—â—l of Carthage as you perceiue by the wordes which I haue alleged alloweth not onely Caâ—onical Scriptures but Martyrs Passions also to be Readen in the Church Why say you then so impudentlie that it it was there Decreed that nothing should be read y â— Church vnto the People sauing onely the Canonical Scriptures I aske of you also where the Passions â—f those Martyrs are which at the beginninge had their Holidaies in the Churche And should to this daie haue them if as you doe chalenge it you were of the holie and Catholike Church S. Clement Cornelius Cyprian â—istus Lawrence Uincent Sebastiane and other whom the whole world honoreth what solemme Feastes haue you of them or what Lessons and Homilies are Readen in your Churches of their Passions Were there no Martyrs in the world after the Apostles were once departed this lyfe Or know you any more excellent than these whome I haue named Or haue you no mynde or affection to any of them Or haue you spied a Canon in the Councel of Carthage that nothing but Canonical Scriptures shal be readen in the Church And could you noâ— see the plaine Exception which is straite waies in the same Canon made against it that notwithstanding the former wordes the passions of martyrs should be readeÌ„ in the Church when their yerelie daies are celebrated But of the beggarlines of this new Religion â–ª and how it is altogether dâ—stituted of Martyrs Confessors â–ª Uirgiâ—s of all kinde of Sainctes it is to be spoken at more leasure in the meane tyme this I leaâ—â— most euidentlie proued thâ—â— M. Iewel hath abused Councels How M. Iewel hath abused the Decrees of the Canon Lawe THere is smal hope that he whiche dareth wrest Beliâ— and Peruerte Councels wil spare to vse al Losenesse and Libertie in squaring oâ— Decrees and Decretals to his purpose And manie will thinke on the other side that M. Iewel is so honest and good of nature that he would not no noâ— of the diuell himselfe if he might winne â—ny thing by lying and muchlesse in the cause of God his true Religion reporte any thing of any man that euer yet wrote otherwyse ther â–ª the Trueth is and the wordes of the Author Examples then muste confirme my obiection emonge which this is one Fabianus sâ—â—â—th M. Iewel Bishop of Rome hath plainely decreed that the people should recâ—aue the Communion euery sondaie His wordes be plaine Decâ—rnimus c. We decree that euery sondaâ— the Oblation of the Aultare be made of al men and women both of bread and wine True it is that Fabianus willed such Oblations of bread and wine to be made and them to this end 〈◊〉 à peccatoruÌ„ suorum â—ascibus liberentur that the people might be deliuered of the burden of their sinnes But offering euerie Sonday and Receiuing euerie Sondaie are two thinges To prouide that the people should Offer Bread and Wine euerie Sondaie it was necessary because that is the proper mater of which the Sacrament of the Aultare is made and because the Clergie also liued then of the offerings of the people But to decree that al men and women should Receiue euâ—rie Sonday it is altogether vnreasonable that it should haue ben Fabianus mynde For in the verie same place there is an other Decree of his that men should Communicate thrise at the least if no oftener in a yere that is At Easier â—ittesoâ—â—ide and Chrisimasse except perchaunce some man be letted by anie kind of the grevous crimeâ— If then â—e required no more but that the people should Receaue thrise a yere how is it possible that by this decree of which M. Iewel speaketh and in which there is no mâ—ntion of the peoples receauing â—ut of their Offering only of Bread and Wine any charge should be laied vppon al men and womens consciencies to Receaue euery Sondaie Ye might as wel conclude that in euery parish of England thâ—re was some one or other of the laie people that Receaued alwaies on Sondaie in one kinde at the leaste with the Priest because an holy loafe as we cal it was Offered euery Sondaie But consider yet further Indifferent Reader how finely and properly M. Iewel gathereth Argumentes out of Auncient Popes decrees He noteth out of the foresaied wordes not only that men and women Receaued euery Sondaie but also that they Offered bread and Wine euery Sondaie according to the Order of Melchisedech By which accompte so manie Priestes and Sacrificers were in the Church as were men and women that offered bread and wine Yea not only men and women that are of perfitte discreation but all the boâ—es and wenches of the Parishe may with litle charges be quickly within orders For as M. Iewel compteth there is no more in it but to Offer bread and wine to the Aultare and straitewaies al that doe so are
vnto the Bishope of Rome was to sitte onely aboue others cet The Emperours woordes be plaine Praerogatiuea in EpiscoporuÌ„ CoÌ„silio vel extra ConciliuÌ„ ante alios residendi A Prerogatiue in the CouÌ„cel of bishops â–ª or without the Councel to sit in order aboue other Oh Desperatenesse The Emperours woordes you say be plaine They are so in deede plaine to the eye both in your Booke which is wel printed and in the Code of Parise printe where they may be readen without spectacles except a mans sight be very yll But dare you say that this place perteineth to the Bishoppe of Rome For of the Bishoppe of Rome our question is whether his Priuilege to be First and Chiefe of al Priestes consisted onely in sitting aboue other in Generall meetinges I wil tel thee Indiffetent Reader the Sense of these foresaid woordes and the Cause of making the Decree in which thei are found that thou maist iudge whether M. Iewel be a fine and vpright Lawyer Whiles the Emperour Leo was gone towardes the Easte Odactus A Tyranne inuaded in the meane tyme the ChurchesÌ„ and set foorâ—h many Lawes and Statutes against the Liberties and the Priuilegies of them The Emperour here vpon made a Law after the Countrie was diliuered of the Tyranny that those thinges being abrogaâ—ed and taken away which had ben done against the true Religion of God al other concerning Churches and Martyrs Chappels should stand in the same state which they were in before his time And further he Decreed that it should be vtterly abrogated what so euer had bene newly brought vp against the Churches and the Bishopes of them Seu de iure Sacerdot alium â—reationum seu de expulsione cuiusquam Episcopi à quolibet his temporibus facta seu deprarogatiua in Episcoporum Concilio â—el extra Concilium ante alios residendi Either concerning the right of making of Priestes either the expulsioÌ„ of any bishop made by any maÌ„ at this time or the prerogatiue of sitting before other either in the Councel of Bishopes or vvithout it Consider now Indifferent Reader whether the Preâ—ogatiue of which the Law here speaketh was meant only of the Bishope of Rome Or whether y â— Emperours vvoo dâ—s here be plaine to proue that the Bishope of Rome should â—it â—irst 〈◊〉 General meetings whereas there is no mention at al in this place of the B. of Rome but only of Acatius by name Patriarche of Constantinople and of other Bishoppes in general which had taken wronge vnder Odoactus the Tyranne And whether the B. of Rome were one of that number it appeereth not by any word of the Decree so that it is altogether boldely and nothing discreetly said that the Prerogatiue spoken of in this place is plaine for the Popes sitting aboue other or that the Popes Prerogatiue is no more but to sit aboue al others It foloweth This Prerogatiue in Greeke is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is the Priuilege of the first place So is the faining of a Person and making of that to speake which hath no sense or tongue called in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but we require not here of you to tel your Countriemen what is Greeke for this or y â— thing but what is y e answer to the Argument that is made against you For let it be so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke signifieth the Priuilege of the first place you do not yet shew vnto vs that the Priuilege spoken of in this Edict of the Emperours is so called or that it is meant of the Bishope of Rome to proue that his Prerogatiue is to more but A 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A priuilege of the first place But you procede out of the pupose and saie That these phrases in that tongue be knowen and CoÌ„mon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Like as also theâ—e in he latine tongue obtinere primas secuÌ„das Tertias that is to haue the Preominence of the first Second and Third place This woulde serue well if either we doubted Or were ignorant of these phrases or if the declaring of them perteined any point to the quesion and yet I saie vnto you that Obtinere primas or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not only to haue the first place but also to wynne the best game Or to haue the Chiefeste parte in any Fâ—are or Acte Or to beare the highest Office and so furthe So that to your matter of the Place they doe not serue necessariâ—y And if by Obtinere Primas this only thinge were meant to sitte in the First Place yet should not this proue that the Edicte of the Emperour in whiche you shewe not that the selfe same Phrase is vsed doeth plainely make for it That the Popes Prerogatiue is no greater than to sitte first at Generall meetinges For this is the question And not what Obtinere Primas or Secundas signifieth in good Latine And to this we looke for your Answer But you saie as though you had proued so much in further confirmation thereof And that the Emperour Iustinian meant ONLY thus and none OTHERWISE it is manifeste euen by the selfe same place that M. Harding hath here alleged Mary Syr that is worth the hearing but marke thou Indifferent Reader M. Iewels wordes ONLY and NONE OTHERWYSE For except I be fowly deceaued he wil not proue so much as he pretendeth But let vs heare the Emperour and M. Iewels Comment vpon him Sancimus c. We ordeine Your c. Here first of all hath no Place For it putteth these wordes out which are much to the mater And they â—re these Sancimus secundum Canonum defiâ—tiones vâ—â— ordaine according to the determinations of the Canons that c. By which it appeereth that Iustinian dyd no more but exquute the former Dâ—crees â–ª and was not hymselfe the Authour or Geauer of the singular Priuilege which is due to the See of Rome And now lette M. Iewel goe forewarde We ordeine caet that the Pope Reade Sanctissimum moste holy of the Elder Rome shal be Reade is the first of al the Priestes and that the moste holy Archebishope of Constantinople which is named Newe Rome haue the seconde place It foloweth in the Decree After the holy Apostolike See of the Elder Rome But what concludeth M. Iewel hereof It foloweth Hereby it is plaine that this Priuilege standeth ONLY in placing the B. of â—ome in the first Seate aboue others It is so plaine that no man seeth it Be thou Iudge Indifferent Reader Yea lette any Protestant in al the worlde tell Trueth lâ—e and not Doth he find in the foresaied woâ—â—s of 〈◊〉 Decrec this worde ONLY Doth he find that the 〈◊〉 of the B. of Rome is declared by the Emperour to stand in none other thinge but in sitting first A warthie mater in deede for An Emperour to set furth Seates for Bisshoppes
saith Vvhole Christ is not conteined vnder ech kind Sacramentally For he speaketh of the representation only which is made to our senses by exterâ—al words Signes and not of y â— thing it selfe and substance of the Sacrament which is apprehended by Faith Now that Alexander was not of this mind which M. Iew. would make him to be of that whole Christ should not be receaued vnder ech kind though whole Christ were not signified by the sound of the wordes of Consecration in ech kind it is manifest by the next article in him where he concludeth that Christus integer Deus homo est sub specie Panis Vvhole Christ God and Man is vnder the forme of Bread And both sayinges are true that vvhole Christ is not vnder ech kind â–ª if ye consider only the Signe of the wordes that are spoken or the thinges that are shewed for in saying this is my bodie no mention is made of bloud And againe that vvhole Christ God and man is vnder the forme of Bread if ye consider the mater Really Alexander therfore speaketh no otherwise in this point then it becummeth A faithful and Catholike man to do And M. Iewel doth no otherwise than he is wont to do but otherwise surely than becumneth an honest and lerned man specially hauinge no neede to alleage any Scholemen and lesse neede to corrupt them when he allegeth them Polidorus Uergilius abused S. Cyprian calleth the Church of Rome Ecclesiam principalem vnde vnit as Sacerdet alis exorta est the principal Church from vvhence the Vnitie of Priestes hath spronge Out of which testimonie M. Iewel gathereth A force as it were of two Argumentes that might be made the one in that it is called Ecclesia principalis the principal or chief Churche the other because it foloweth vnde vnitas Sacordotalis exorta est whiche words D. Harding doth interpret thus from vvhence the vnitie of Priestes is spronge M. Iewel thus froÌ„ whence the vnitie of the Priesthood first began In which his Interpretation there is a plaine falsehod and craftines For in repeting the wordes and in writing of them so as if they were D. Hardings it becummed hym to deliuer them furth in the same forme as he â—ound them in D. Harding Then whereas it is not al one to say the vnitie of Priesthood sprange from Rome and the vnitie of Priesthod began first at Rome for there may be springs two or three in one place and although the water issue not out first at the lowest yet the lowest of the three maie be the chiefe head vnto al the riuers beneth M. Iewels intent was not simple to cast in this word first into the sentence as though the question were not whether the Chife Prieste in all the world were at Rome but whether the first Priest in al the world began at Rome Betwene which two propositions there is a great difference But what sayth M. Iewel to these wordes Vnde vnitas Sacerdotalis exorta est from whence the vnitie of Priesthoode first begaÌ„ as he englisheth it for a vaÌ„tage For that these words seme for to weigh much I thinke it good herein to heare the Iudgement of some other man that may seeme Indifferent Why should Polidore Uergile be Indifferent He lyued not fiftie yeres sens he was a Collectour to y â— Bishop of Rome and therefore to you not Indifferent And to vs on the other side not Indifferent because this very booke de Inuenâ—orâ—â—â—s rerum is condemned by the General Councel at Trent But you haâ—e fouÌ„d somewhat in him by likelihod which maketh for you that you esteeme of hym so wel And what is that I praie you We aske you for the Answer to S. Cyprians words you bring in Polidore to expound them but what wil ye conclude of Polidore That This commendation of which S. CypriaÌ„ speaketh was geauen by S. Cyprian to the Church of Rome in respect of Italie and not in respect of the whole world Whether this be so or no Polidors owne wordes shal trie it In his fourth booke the sâ—xth Chapiter his purpose was to shew of whom first the Order of Priesthood was Instituted And he proueth that Christ hym selfe was the first maker of Priestes Then both it folowe in hym Aâ— posâ— Chrisâ—um Petrus in Sacerdotio praerâ—gatiuaâ— habuisâ—e dicitur quòd primus in Apostolorum ordine eius Sacrosancti Collegij Caput fuisset â–ª Quapropter D. Cyprianus epist. 3. aâ— CorneliuÌ„ Cathedram Petri PrincipaleÌ„ vocat But after Christ Peter is said to haue had the prerogâ—â—iue in priesthood because he vvas the first in the revv of the Apostles and head of that holy College â—herefore S. Cyprian in his third epistle to Cornelius calleth the Chaire or Sec of S. Peter the 〈◊〉 or principal 〈◊〉 then this touching any woâ—ds of S. Câ—prian if any man can there find iâ— Polidore I wil leâ—se my right hand for 〈◊〉 and neuer write hereafter against any heretiâ—e but the Booke is common the place is intelligible and my eyes and vnderstanding serueth me so wel that I am sure Polidore in that place expoundeth not these wordes of S. Cyprian â—nde â—nitas Sacerdot alis exorta est What Impudencie then is it in M. Iewel for that these words seme to weigh much to bring furth the Iudgement of Polidore a man that may seme to be Indifferent whereas they are not at all in Polidore Polidorus Virgilius saieth he expouÌ„deth the same words of S. Cyprian Dare ye say he expoundeth them whereas he hath not them He bringeth in S. Cyprian to proue that the See of S. Peter was principal but of Vnitas Sacerdotalis the vnitie of Priesthood Upon which wordes you made hast to shewe his exposition he maketh no mention He saieth in his owne wordes not in S. Cyprians that the order of Priesthood can not be sated to haue grovven first from the Bishope of Rome onlesse vve vnderstand it only by Italie for Priesthood was rightly instituted at Hierusalem but that the Commendation geauen by S. Cyprian to the Church of Rome was geauen in respect only of Italy and not in respect of the whole world he saied it not nor intended it The Order also of Priesthood and vnitie of Priesthood are two thinges In the Order is considered the Author and effect of that Sacrament In the Unitie is considered the preseruation and Gouernement of that Order Of the Order it selfe and where Priesthod first began Polidore doth speake Of the vnity and of the Relation which all Priestes should haue to their chiefe head and Gouernour S. Cyprian doth speake and Polidore saieth nothing The Order began at Dierusalem and not at Rome The vnity I wil not say begaÌ„ at Rome but after y â— s. Peter had by his martyrdoÌ„ there takeÌ„ ful possession of that See then was it seen where the Principal Church in al the world was and to