say this or that against a man you must proue it Rainoldes So I minde to doo And that by demonstration out of the saâ—e booke of Genebrard himselfe in which he â—indeth this faute with the Centurie-writers For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye How doth Genebrard recken Hart. In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen as he proueth out of Vasaeus Rainoldes When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnder Agatho kept What saith he of that Hart. In the yeare six hundred foure score and one or two or there about Rainoldes Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell Hart. He was but what of that Rainoldes Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles is a counterfeit and not Isidores For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius and Stephanus in the time of Pope Agatho Constantine the Emperour Which séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore are dissolued all into one counterfeit abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops Hart. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles about seuen hundred yeares since did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores and so he citeth it Rainoldes Why mention you that Are you disposed to proue that some haue béene deceiued and thought him Isidore who was not Hart. No But to proue that the worke is Isidores as Father Turrian doth by the testimonie of Igmarus Rainoldes Ignarus can not proue that He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors For it is too cléere by the Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of and therefore no helpe but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie some groome of the Popes that had an eye to the almes-box conueied this pamphlet in amongst them and well meaning men in France and other countryes receyued it as a worthie worke compiled by S. Isidore and coming from the See Apostolike But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses which is vrged and iustly as a probable coniecture that those epistles were not extant in their dayes the matters that are handled and debated in them the scriptures alleaged the stories recorded the ceremonies mentioned the times and dates assigned are not coniectures probable but most certaine proofes that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome whose names they beare There is a booke entitled to the Poet Ouid touching an olde woman haue you euer séene it Hart. What is that to the purpose Doth he speake of the Popes epistles Rainoldes No but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes It is ancient it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago And he who set it foorth saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie who did publish it A smooth tale to make men beleeue that it is Ouids Of whom though it sauour no more then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke For to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style if I should vrge it you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest To the silence of witnesses that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie But vnto the matters of which the booke intreateth and thinges that it discourseth on no shadow of defense can be made with any reason For it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie that God shall giue her to be our mediatresse and shall assumpt her into heauen and place her in a throne with him yea the autour prayeth to her Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of I trow in Ouids time Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures that he could cite the law of Moses and speake of Iacob and Esau and allude to Salomon in Ecclesiastes Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome although you haue gloses to shift of other reasons yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them For the scriptures are so alleaged and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church about religion about rites about stories ecclesiasticall that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops Hart. Why Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter that they should alleage the scriptures as that Ouid should Rainoldes Nay I doo thinke it or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo then that Ouid should allude to Salomon or cite Moses For the bookes of Moses perhaps of Salomon too were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid and he might haue read them But your common Latin translation of the olde testament made a great part of it by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe whence it is called S. Ieroms could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome For they were deceased before he was borne And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation An euident token that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom yea a great while after him as may bee déemed probably For the common Latin translation which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters Tertullian Cyprian Hilarie Ambrose and other of the same ages shew it in all their writings Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies as soone as Ierom had set forth his
to dispose to loose and bind These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils worke entitled the treasure But in S. Cyrils treasure there are no such base coines to be founde Wherefore either Thomas coined them him selfe for want of currant money or tooke them of some coiner and thought to trie if they would go Hart. Doo you know what iniurie you doo to that blessed man S. Thomas of Aquine to whose charge you lay so great a crime of forgerie Rainoldes None I at all to him whose counterfeits I discrie But he did great iniurie to the poore Christians whom hée abused with such counterfeits Your Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holinesse of his life and learning The greatest triall of it was in his seruice to that Sée And are you loth to haue it knowne Hart. But why should you thinke either him to be the counterfeiter or the sayings to be counterfeit when as Cope sheweth they are alleaged not only by him but by other too Namely by that worthie and most learned Cardinall Iohn of Turrecremata who was at the Councell of Basill before him by Austin of Ancona yea by Graecians themselues who were at the councell of Florence Andreas Bishop of Colossae and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarke of Constantinople Of whom when the former said in the Councell that Cyrill in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope none of all gainesaid him The later in a treatise that hee wrote for the Latins against the Graecians touching fiue pointes whereof one is the Popes supremacy citeth the same testimonies although perhaps not all which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyrill Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carpe at and thinke that wordes alleaged by them all are counterfeites Rainoldes Counterfeites are counterfeites though they go thorough twenty hands Al these whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope did liue long after Thomas and séeme to haue alleaged S. Cyrill on his credit as Cope himselfe doth also Wherefore I could not think that they had béene the coiners of that which was before they were But Thomas is the first with whom I finde the words and therefore greatest reason to laie the fault on him vnlesse he shew from whom he had them At least séeing I know the words are not Cyrils whose Thomas saith they be I did him no iniurie I trust when I said that either he receiued them at some coyners handes or coyned them him selfe Hart. Although the wordes are not to be found now in those partes of Cyrils treasure which are extant yet that is not sufficient to proue that either Thomas or some other forged them For Melchior Canus affirmeth that heretikes haue maimed that booke and haue razed out all those things which therin pertained to the Popes authoritie Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact vpon Iohn the Catholikes haue found and shewed Rainoldes Mée thinkes you and Canus deale against vs as the men of Doryla did against Flaccus Whom when they accused out of their publike recordes and their recordes were called for they said that they were robbed of them vpon the way by I know not what shepheardes You accuse vs that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy The recordes by which you proue it his right are the wordes of Cyrill Cyrils wordes are called for that they may be séene You say they are not extant you are robbed of them by I know not what heretikes Whereon to put a greater likelihood you say further that heretikes haue done an other robbery in Theophylact as they are charged by Catholikes And this doo you say but you say it onely you bring no proofe you name no witnesse you shew no token of it If such accusations may make a man guiltie who shall be innocent Hee that should haue dealt-among the heathens so would haue bene counted rather a slaunderer then an accuser Hart. Admitte that the words were not razed perhaps out of any booke of Cyrill which we haue Yet might they be in some of them which are lost or not set forth in Latin For we haue no more then fouretéene bookes of his treasure whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the sixth general Councell And this is enough to remoue suspicion of forgery from Thomas and other who alleage them Rainoldes Nay although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there yet meant they no more of Cyrill then we haue For that which in our Latin edition is the twelfth is the two and thirtieth in the Grecians count Hart. This is an answere which I neuer heard It hath no likelyhood of truth Rainoldes Peruse you the place which toucheth that of Cyrill and the wordes them selues will proue it more then likely Hart. The Councel hath it thus Hoc sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet epistolam ad profanos explanans nec enim vnam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei creaturae vt neque id quod creatum est ad diuinam deducamus essentiam neque id quod est diuinae naturae praecipuum ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus Rainoldes This sentence alleaged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Gréeke is in the twelfth booke of our Latin Cyrill Sauing that he being translated by an other hath it in other wordes But there is the sentence the very same sentence which the Councell pointeth too Hart. It might be there first and yet againe afterward in the two and thirtieth as manye vse one sentence often Rainoldes But the circumstance of the place doth rather import it to be the very same For the Councell saith that Cyrill hath these wordes explanans epistolans ad profanos where he expoundeth the epistle to profane men And what meant they by this epistle ad profanos to profane men Hart. How can I tell what they meant when that booke of Cyrill whereof they speake is lost Rainoldes It should be the epistle ad Romanos to the Romaines Romanos made profanos by the printers error vnlesse he did it of purpose to shew what now the Romanes be or some corrector chaunged it least wee by this circumstance should find the place of Cyrill For this where he expoundeth the epistle to the Romanes is a great argument that the Councell meant the place in the twelfth booke where Cyril doth handle such pointes of that epistle as concerned the matter that he had in hand Which that he should doo againe in the same worke with the same sentence touching the same matter they who know Cyrill will not thinke it likely The lesse because it is an vsuall thing with the Grecians to diuide bookes otherwise then the Latins doo As in the Gréeke testament the gospell of S. Marke hath more then
two and twentéeth as they number it For where it should be read as our Latin hath it and the Greeke also they haue pearced my hands and my feete the Hebrues now do reade not Caaru that is they haue pearced but Caari that is as a Lion as a Lion my hands and my feete Whereby a notable prophecie describing so plainely the maner and kind of the passion of Christ should bée taken out of our hands through the trechery of the Iewes if wée should folow the Hebrew text as it is now But it is so manifestly knowne to be corrupted that your selues though allowing the Hebrew as authenticall yet folowe it not in this place in your English Bibles Rainoldes This is the onely argument that Lindan hath of any shew to proue that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text But if it be weighed with an euen ballance you shall find it a meere cauill For what will you say of your owne selues Did the Church of Rome corrupt the Latin text in the third of Genesis where it is read of the woman she shall bruse thy head for that which should be read of thewomans séed he shall bruse thy head Hart. Some of your men say so But they do great iniury to the Church therin Rainoldes They haue as great cause at least if not greater to say this of Romanistes as you the other of the Iewes For if we match the prophecies this is more notable which is corrupted in your Latin of the victorie of Christ ouer Satan and ours through him If we compare errors this is more manifest in so much that it is proued to be an error euen by Lindan also not onely by others and the Hebrue text with the Chaldee paraphrase and the Greeke translation do all make against it as the Diuines of Louan graunt Hart. But this might créepe in by some humane ouersight or negligence of scriueners as sundry such errours haue crept in to writen bookes of all sortes euen in the best copies The words ipsa and ipse in which the variance lyeth doo not so greatly differ but that a man might easily mistake the one for the other Rainoldes No more do the wordes Caaru Caari The differēce is as smal Wherfore if the one might be an ouersight of scriueners in the Latin as you say and truely why might not the other be likewise in the Hebrew as it is gessed by Andradius And that it was so it is declared at large by Arias Montanus who for his singular knowledge and iudgement both in artes and tongues was chosen as I said to ouersée the setting foorth of that famous Bible in Hebrewe Chaldee Greeke and Latin which was printed at Anwerpe with the approbation of your Popes and Doctors For in the sixth tome of that worke he sheweth that when the Iewes returned into their countrey after their captiuitie of seuentie yeares in Babylon it befell vnto them partly by occasion of their long troubles which did distract their mindes partly by corruption of their natiue tongue which was growne out of kind first into the Chaldee and afterward into the Syriake that they neither knewe nor pronounced so wel the words of the scripture writen as the maner was without vowels Whereby it came to passe that in the writing of them their crept in some faulte either through iniury of the times or by reason of troubles which fell vpon the people or by negligence of some scriueners But this inconuenience was met withall afterward by most learned men such as Esdras was and afterward Gamaliel Ioseus Eleazar and other of great name who prouided by common trauell with great care and industry that the text of scripture and the true reading thereof should be preserued most sound and vncorrupt And from these men or from their instruction being receaued and poolished by their scholers in the ages folowing there came saith he as we iudge that most profitable treasure which is called Masoreth that is to say a deliuery because it doth deliuer aboundantly and faithfully all the diuers readings that euer were of the Hebrewe Bibles Wherein there appeareth an euident token of the prouidence of God for the preseruation of the sacred bookes of scripture whole and sound that the Masóreth hath beene kept till our time these many hundred yeares with such care and diligence that in sundry copies of it which haue bene writen no difference was euer found and it hath beene added in all the writen Bibles that are in Europe Afrike or Asia each of them agreing throughly therein with other euen as it is printed in the Venice-bibles to the great wonder of them who reade it Now in this Masoreth made so long ago so diligently writen so faithfully kept in so many countryes through so many ages as Arias Montanus witnesseth the Iewes them selues acknowledge by their owne testimonie that where in common bookes it is read Caari in certaine it is Caaru Wherefore if some Iewish scriueners who wrote out bookes depraued it of malice and spite which might be though they who accuse them doo bring neither autour nor time nor any sure argument to proue it but if some depraued it yet séeing their Masôreth doth note the diuerse reading and in part doth iustifie that which is the truer it is hard to charge them as you doo with corrupting of the Hebrewe text Much harder then if we should charge your Romish church with corrupting of the Latin where you read ipsa in stéed of ipse not he but she shall bruse thy head Hart. Not so for we haue kept also that reading ipse euen in our vulgar Latin translation For the Diuines of Louan do note that it is found in two writen copies And we do confesse it to be more agréeable both to the Hebrewe text and the Chaldee paraphrase the Greeke translation yea that S. Ierom read it so too as you may see in the Notations of Franciscus Lucas to which our latin Bibles set forth by the Diuines of Louan doo referre you Rainoldes Yet Franciscus Lucas doth wrangle still about it and saith that all the Latin copies which they could finde doo read it ipsa and of the two which you mention he doubteth whether one did folow the Latin or the Hebrewe and hee maketh shew of proofe that the Hebrew may well agree to the Latin with a litle hammering of it Yea and that is more as in al the Bibles that I haue séene of yours the Latin hath ipsa not ipse shee not he though your greatest frends haue wished you forshame to mēd it so in an Hebrue text of the famous Bible of king Philip which but now I mētioned the word he is altered according to the latin shee and that not of errour but of purpose as it is witnessed by Franciscus Lucas Which is greater boldnes in corrupting the Hebrue thē you can
iustly charge the Iewes with But if it besufficient to cléere both the Latin edition your selues that you haue found a booke or two wherein ipse is read as your Diuines say how much more iustly may we cléere both the Hebrue text and the Iewes who as it is noted in their Masóreth found sundrie bookes with Caaru Chiefly sith they commend the bookes as wel corrected which had that reading you commend not yours And they reproue a note which some had made rashly to bring in the other reading in steed of that you make such notes your selues And they vpon the text where Caari is read doo note that the word hath another meaning then where it signifieth as a Lion what note you so of ipsa And you these many ages haue kept in your Bibles a faulty reading without any mention of the true they haue done the contrarie in theirs of auncient time Finally where you can finde but two copies in which the Latin edition doth read ipse not ipsa if yet you can finde two for of them you doubt they beside the copies extant at the time that the Masóreth was writen haue had sundrie amongst them euen till our dayes in which it is read not Caari but Caaru For it is auouched out of many singular good copies by Andradius Isaac protesteth that hée saw such a one him selfe with his grandfather and Petrus Galatinus saith that euen yet it is found so writen in certaine copies most auncient Whereby you may sée withall how vniustly you cast vs in the téeth that our English Bibles folow not the Hebrue text in this place For tell me I pray In the English translation of the new Testament which you at Rhemes did trauell in translated you neuer a worde that you found not in the common text of the Latin edition Hart. Yes when by the Greeke or the Fathers wee saw it was a manifest faulte of the writers heretofore that mistooke one word for another Rainoldes Yet when you did so you translated faithfully out of the authentical Latin into English Hart What els Because we did it according to the best corrected copies of the Latin Rainoldes And why say you then that wee translate not according to the Hebrue when we translate according to the best corrected copies of the Hebrue Specially when we beside the Masoreth do follow the consent of written copies so many where you sometime translate that which was found in one though all the rest were against it But thus shall they dash their foote against the stones who will runne when they are blinde Hart. Nay you are blinde rather who doo call vs blinde We can speake such wordes as easily of you as you may of vs. Rainoldes As easily but not as iustly For it is notorious that in this opinion which you hold out of Stapleton and he â—ut of Lindan both they and you are blinded what through ignorance of truth touching the Hebrue text what through fansie to error in the Latin translation Through ignorance of the Hebrue in that you say the Iewes haue shamefully corrupted it Which Arias Montanus no partiall iudge herein noteth to be their saying who know not the Masoreth Through fansie to the Latin in that you account of it as authenticall And refusing the originall text vnder colour that one place therof hath in some copies a fault in one letter you preferre a translation which hath many such throughout all copies as the Diuines of Louan shew which hath by confession of your owne Lindan monstrous corruptions of all sortes which is printed so euen among your selues that scarce one copie can bee found that hath one booke of scripture whole vndefiled in which there are many pointes that are translated too intricately and darkely yea some improperly some abusiuely some not so fully yea not so well and truely and to be short which hath sundrie places thrust out from their plaine and naturall sense chiefly in the Psalmes and the new Testament as Lindan not content to vouch it of him selfe doth prooue by the testimonies of the auncient Fathers Austin and Ierom and Hilarie and Victorinus Are not they blinde who preferre a translation and such a translation before the originall yea who bind men to receiue it as authentical or rather as holy as sacred as canonicall vnder paine of damnation And if they thinke themselues not to be blinde in that they do so are they not so much the blinder like the Pharises because they say we see Hart. You take much paines in vaine with this talke about the Hebrue For I will not yéelde one iot from the decrée of the Councell of Trent Wherefore if you can proue out of our authenticall latin translation that the Priest is not meant by the iudge in that place of Deuteronomie I will harken to you Otherwise you may alleage the Hebrue against the Iewes for it shall neuer moue me Rainoldes I am sorie if you be so frowardly set Yet well fare Andradius who thinketh that the Councel of Trent did not meane either to condemne the Hebrue trueth as he calleth it or to acquite the latin translation from all error when they named it authenticall but onely that the latin hath no such error by which any pestilent opinion in faith and maners may be gathered But if you will not be moued with the Hebrue what say you to the Chaldee paraphrase Or if that also haue as small credit because it expresseth the Hebrue so faithfully in the bookes of Moses what say you to the Greeke of the seuentie interpreters Which the auncient Fathers who either knew not your latin at all or had it not in such price did marueylously estéeme off In them it is as in the Hebrue to the Priest or the iudge whereby it is apparant they thought the iudge one and the Priest another Will you be moued by them or may I alleage the Greeke against the Grecians too Hart. I reuerence the Greeke of the seuentie interpreters But I thinke it might be corrupted more easily then the latin might yea and that it hath béene so in many places Wherefore I appeale still vnto our latin and will not forsake it vnder any pretense Rainoldes Let vs examin then if there bée no remedie the wordes of your latin He that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye Is there not a difference put euen by this spéech betwéene the Priest and the iudge the Priest as ecclesiasticall the iudge as ciuil magistrate Let the iudge put him to death who disobeyeth the Priest Hart. I denye not but the sworde of iustice is giuen to the ciuil magistrate and so there is a difference betwéene the iudge the Priest Yet amongst the Iewes sometimes both the offices did méete in one person as you
name that is solitarie and not collegiate moonkes But the beléeuers at Ierusalem were at Ierusalem in a citie and liued in fellowship together Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth and therefore Ierom was deceiued Hart. I will not beléeue on your worde that so worthie a Father was deceiued Rainoldes If you will not on my worde I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it For writing to Paulinus touching the training vp of moonkes he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow but S. Antonie and others who dwelt in fieldes and deserts Hart. He saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes and Bishops not to moonkes True in some respectes And yet me thinkes too But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so through ouersight Rainoldes If they might be deceiued so through ouersight they might be deceiued through affection also For they were men and subiect to it As Cyprian through too much hatred of heretikes condemned the baptisme of heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell erred with him As Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the diuels them â—elues should be saued at length As Tertullian through spite of the Roman clergie reuolted to the Montanists and called the Catholikes carnall men because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting Hart. We condemne these errours in them as well as you and doo therein except against them Rainoldes You doo except also I trow I am sure your Doctors doo against Damascene for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour that Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voyce from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked A verie great affection to prayers for the dead that moued Damascene to write this For it is against the doctrine of the Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell In Purgatorie they say they may Hart. S. Thomas doth confirme the same Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege which doth not breake the common law Rainoldes But your Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then beside that he was greatly affected to Damascen And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer he doth affirme so lustily that all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story But Canus as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are the most of them did wisely sée noteth fréely that not onely later and lesse discreete autours as he who made the golden legend but also graue ancient learned holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes partly while they fetched the truth where it is seldom from common rumors and reportes partly while they sought to please the peoples humor and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which coÌ„monly are counted true Of this sorte he nameth Gregorie and Bede the one for his Dialogues the other for his English story He might haue named Damascene with them Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others but coyned lyes themselues too wrote those thinges of Saintes which their fansie liked though neither true nor likely As that S. Frauncis was wont to take lise that were shaken off and put them on himselfe it was a lowsie tricke and S. Frauncis did it not but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse Likewise that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike S. Dominike constrained him to hold a candle in his handes till the candle being spent did put him to great grief in burning his fingers Such examples there are innumerable but these two may giue a taste of their affection who haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice And Canus although he confesse it as euident notwithstanding which is straunge he thinketh them vnwise Bishops who seeke to reforme it For while they cure the nailesore saith he they hurt the head that is in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre that scarce any shew of the olde religion is remaining in it A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed For though they haue remoued some of those stories which Canus saith are vncertaine forged friuolous and false yet haue they doon it sparingly If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer which heretikes would haue laught at and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion saue that their seruice is in Latin Hart. These thinges are impertinent but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life or S. Dominikes or the golden legend that old moth-eaten booke as D. Harding calleth it of the liues of Saintes I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers but of olde and ancient whom Canus iudgeth better of then of the younger For he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis and Antoninus that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine as to let go nothing that they found writeÌ„ in any papers whatsoeuer But of Bede and Gregorie he iudgeth more softly and rather excuseth them then reproueth them Though iudge he how he listed he was but one Doctour and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement both for younger and elder writers Rainoldes They who deale with taming of lyons I haue read are wont when they finde them somewhat out of order to beate dogges before them that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life or of S. Dominikes or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it though he who wrote it was an Archbishop in his time a man of name and his booke a legend read publikely in Churches and called golden for the excellencie but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer or Antoninus if you will and Vincentius Beluacensis who are as good as he welnigh you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake but for the lions rather I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too For as not Rupertus
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
not begotten or borne Hart. Hée séemeth to haue meant it And Torrensis who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which haue come to vs from the Apostles themselues deliuered as it were by hand although they bee not written expresly in scriptures Rainoldes The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God to S. Austins credit and to you who reade him And yet with such a sophisme in the word expresly that if it should be laid vnto his charge he would wash his handes of it as Pilate did of Christes blood For he alleageth those places of S. Austin thereby to proue Traditions as though we had receiued that doctrine touching God by tradition vnwritten not by the written word S. Austin no such matter But dealing with an Arian who required the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps Wherevpon he presseth him in like sort with the word vnbegotten which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father and defending it S. Austin replieth that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten well although the word not written so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby And as with this Arian so with their bishop Maximinus Who hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne because it is not written that he is worshipped To the which cauill of his S. Austin answereth that although it be not written in flat termes yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God the holy Ghost is God therefore to bee worshipped Thus S. Austins meaning was of these pointes that the scripture teacheth them Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures left him selfe this refuge that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures And yet by referring that title to traditions induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition not by scripture A doctrine which Arians will clappe their handes at that the Sonne of God is not by scripture of one substance with the Father But let it be far from you M. Hart to thinke so prophanely of the word of God And if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side rest here on Thomas of Aquine rather who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture either in words or in sense Which as he confirfirmeth by Denys and Damascen so was it the common iudgement of the Fathers of S. Austin chiefly as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew And in the conclusion thereof for euident proofe of that which you denied he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point And as for that point so for all the rest which in that very booke whereof we spake S. Austin noteth It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by the authoritie of the church more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures Hart. Yes his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe me thinkes that he did For if he signified by plainer places of the scriptures as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle when he had named the one to adde the other to it chiefly in such sort as that is added by S. Austin For both the coniunction the places of scriptures and the authoritie of the church should import thinges different and I may say of wordes as the Philosopher saith of things That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer Rainoldes Nothing is done in vaine that is done to edifie The church might well be mentioned as an interpreter of the worde though it teach not any thing beside the word of God The people of Israel did beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him The wise man doth charge his sonne to hearken to the instruction of his father and forsake not the doctrine of his mother yet they both the father and mother teach one lesson the chiefest wisedome the feare of God The same is fulfilled in this Moses and the Lord or rather in this mother and our heauenly Father of whom it hath bene said well He cannot haue God to be his Father who hath not the church to be his mother For God hauing purposed to make vs his children and heires of life eternall as he prepared his word to be first the séede the immortall seed of which we are begotten a new afterward the milke the sincere milke whereby wee béeing borne grow so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it as it were a mother first to conceaue and bring foorth the children afterward to nourish them as babes new borne with her milke Which appeareth as by others so chiefly by S. Paul who traueiled of them in childbirth whom he sought to conuert and when they were new borne he nourished them with milke to set before our eyes the duetie of the church and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vnto Christ. Now the milke which the church giueth to her children shée giueth it out of her brestes and her two brestes are the two testaments of the holie scriptures by S. Austins iudgement the old Testament and the new S. Austin therefore saying the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church meant not that the church should deliuer any thing but onely what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures Hart. Not for milke perhaps which babes are to sucke but for strong meate wherewith men are nourished For mothers féede not their children being growne with mylke out of theyr brestes Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures haue both milke for babes and strong meat for men milke in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood strong meate in harder and greater mysteries Yea where Christ said that euerye Scribe which is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vnto an housholder who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde S. Austin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde the olde and newe testament Wherefore sith euery pastor and teacher of the church is meant you graunt by this Scribe it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the
proofe whereof you cited them namely that Paule went to see Peter for a reuerent respect and honor of his person But I deny the argument which you inferre thereof that Peter had therefore a singular power whereby you meane the supremacie You should haue laid the Fathers if you would néedes bestow them on this which is denied not on that which is graunted But this is the world Men will rather giue to the rich who need not then to the poore who need Hart. I thought you would rather haue denied that then this for this is cléere of it selfe and néedeth no proofe The common vse of men sheweth it For they giue honor and reuerence to them in whom they acknowledge a superioritie Rainoldes Perhaps a superioritie yet not a supremacie Hart. If Peter were Paules superior in power the supremacie is proued Rainoldes If in power you say somewhat Though neuerthelesse he might be full hie in power and yet come short of your supremacie But he was superior to him in some things els and not in power Hart. That he was superior to him in power I proue S. Peter had honor giuen to him of Paule therefore he was in power aboue him Rainoldes Euill newes for husbandes that haue shrewes to their wiues if this argument be good For they are commaunded to giue honor to the woman as to the weaker vessell whereof by your Logicke the wiues may claime authoritie and power aboue their husbandes S. Peter saw not this consequence he did not thinke on his supremacie For although he teach that the husband should giue honor to his wife yet he calleth the wife the weaker vessell not the stronger and he commandeth wiues to be subiect to their husbands that is to be inferior I trow in power vnto them Which S. Paule noteth also more expressely when he saith the woman ought to haue power vpon her head Hart. This answere doth not weaken the strength of mine argument For the name of honor when husbandes are commanded to giue it to their wiues is taken improperly But honor as I take it as Paule gaue it to Peter is vsed in his proper sense to signifie a reuerence the which an inferior doth owe to a superior a subiect to him that is in power aboue him Rainoldes The honor which husbands are bound to giue vnto their wiues as to the weaker vessels doth signifie an honest care and regard of bearing with their weakenes prouiding for their wantes and shewing all husbandly loue and duetie to them Such a reuerence as you mention it doth not signifie I graunt yet doth it signifie a reuerence which is implied in the loue and duetie that their husbands owe them S. Paule saith to Timothee honor the widowes which are widowes in deede He meaneth that they should be charitably relieued but this reliefe is no reason why they should not reuerently bee regarded too For you are deceiued if you thinke that none are bound to reuerence others but onely the inferiors their superiors in power The Gentiles were taught by nature it selfe that a reuerence is due to euery state of men to children with an héed that no vnhonest thing be done in their presence because their tendernes is proue to learne it to old men with an honor in respect of their wisedome their experience their grauitie wherewith the gray heares are wont to be accompanied to all but chiefly to the best with a modest account of their good opinion and an honest desire to be approued of them Wherefore if your argument do stand vpon the proper signification of honour you shall perceiue your selfe that it can neuer proue a supremacie of power For honour is an outward profession and testimonie of a reuerent opinion which we haue conceiued of some kind of excellencie in him to whom we giue it So the chiefest honor is due vnto God the father of lightes the fountaine of all excellencie and after him to men in seuerall degrees according to their seuerall estates and giftes of excellencie wherewith the Lord hath blessed them to the king as preeminent and all that gouerne vnder him to the ministers of the gospel the more the better they do their duetie to them whom nature most doth bind vs our fathers and mothers to the aged the wise the vertuous the learned in a word to all men but chiefely to the faithfull as members of the bodie of Christ none so base but hath an excellencie the excellencie of a Christian. And hereby appeareth the weakenes of your argument that Paule was inferior to Peter in power because hee gaue him honour Did not Salomon in his maiestie giue honor to his mother and was not he the king and she a subiect to him Are we not all taught to go one before an other in giuing honour as well the rich as the poore as well the high as the lowe What a proud and arrogant mind had that bodie vnlesse his mind and tongue dissented who thought that hee must giue honor to no man but to them only that are in power aboue him Belike this diuinitie was learned out of that chapter of the booke of Ceremonies which I touched afore that the Pope doth do reuerence to no man of duetie and right for then he is afraid least it should be thought that some man is in power aboue him Yet in the same booke to see a good nature we reade that he did honour Fridericke the Emperour in so much that he placed him next vnto him selfe aboue all the Cardinalles and the place in which the Emperour did sit was no lower then the place where the Pope did holde his feete Nowe the seate of the Emperour declareth that the Pope was aboue him in power and yet the Pope did honour him Paule therefore might haue beene aboue Peter in power though hee did honour Peter If he might the honour which hee gaue to Peter dooth strike no stroke for the supremacie Wherefore you may dimisse it as a coward out of the field not fitte to fight the Popes battailes Doth not this mine answere touch honour taken properly Or will you set the Emperour aboue the Pope in power Or is it a lie that the Pope did honor him Hart. You triumph ouer me at euery small occasion as though you had a conquest But you see not your owne absurdities and follies You spake ere-while of the Apostles as equall in power now you speake of Paule as if hee were aboue Peter like a Pope aboue an Emperour And I did frame my reason out of the Scriptures and Fathers and you do bring the booke of Ceremonies to kill it Will you subdue vs with such warriours Rainoldes I would faine triumph not ouer you but ouer your errours if I could The strength of my cause and valure of my proofes maketh me the chéerefuller in dealing with the
in the times I trow In déede they are not like For Peter was then a preacher of the Gospell as Pastors are now and the Pope now is a Prince of the world as Nero was then The fifth Chapter The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for tryal of the truth in controuersies of religion but the Scripture onely 2 Their writings are corrupted and counterfeits do beare their names 3 The sayings alleaged out of their right writinges proue not the pretended supremacie of Peter HART What soeuer difference there is betwéen the Pope Peter in state and power of worldly gouernment yet Peter had the same authoritie and primacie ouer the Apostles which the Pope claimeth ouer all Bishops And this because you will not yéeld vnto the Scriptures I will proue by the Fathers whose testimonies of it are most cléere and euident Rainoldes Whether I or you refuse to yéeld vnto the scriptures let the godly iudge As for the Fathers I like your dealing well in part For I wished that first you would go through with the Scriptures and then when you had found nothing in them come to the Fathers afterward But I wish further if I might obteine it that you had the Scriptures in such price and honour as the word of God that no word of men should be matched with them to build your faith vpon For God hath giuen his word to be a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path that we may sée the way to heauen and walke in it And the holy Ghost saith that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise vnto saluation wise by instructing vs in the faith of Christ vnto saluation by leading vs to life through that faith Wherfore sith we conferre about a point of wisedome perteining vnto faith and life you should do very well to rest on the Scriptures as the onely touch-stone for tryall of the truth therin Hart. Now at length I heare that which I looked for I thought for all your duetifull words of the Fathers that you would come ouer to the Scriptures onely before you made an end Rainoldes Why Is my behauiour towarde men vndutifull because I am duetifull vnto God aboue them Hart. There is a worthy treatise of an auncient writer Vincentius Lirinensis against the profane innouations of all heresies a passing fine booke which it is wished that al such should read as wil know the truth You haue read it perhaps and what thinke you of it Is it not a golden booke Rainoldes The booke is good enough if it haue a wise reader Hart. Say you so Yet some there be of your side who are afraid of the name of Vincentius Lirinensis Rainoldes They are worse afraid then hurt for any thing that I know But what of Vincentius Hart. He saith it is so common a practise of heretikes to alleage the scripture that they neuer bring almost ought of their own but they seeke to shadow it with words of scripture too And hauing shewed this by sundry examples he addeth that therein they folow the practise of the Deuill their maister Who tooke our Sauiour Christ and set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said vnto him If thou be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down For it is written that he will giue his Angels charge ouer thee that they shall kepe thee in all thy waies with their hands they shall lift thee vp least perhaps thou dash thy foote against a stone If thou saith he be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down Why For it is written We must with great heede obserue and remember the doctrine of this place that when we see words of the Prophets or Apostles brought foorth by any men against the Catholike faith we way be assured by this great example of the authoritie of the Gospel that the Deuil doth speake by them Thus saith that auncient Father Vincētius Lirinensis Whose words do manifestly disproue your opinion that the truth of pointes in faith should be tryed by the scripture onely Rainoldes The ciuill law saith that it is vnciuill for a man not hauing weighed the whole law to giue aduise or iudgement some one parcell of it being alone proposed Your dealing with the wordes of Vincentius Lirinensis is guiltie of this vnciuilitie For he to instruct vs how we may continue sound in the faith against the guiles of heretikes and suttletie of Satan who doth transforme him selfe into an Angell of light teacheth that our Sauiour hath to this entent both forewarned vs of the danger and foreshewed vs a remedy Forewarned vs of the daunger in the precept that he gaue Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardly are rauening wolues For what saith he is sheepes clothing but the sincere and soft words of the Scripture which are alleaged by false prophets as well as by the true What are the rauening wolues but the cruell meanings and senses of heretikes which vnder sheepes clothing do rent the flocke of Christ Foreshewed vs a remedy in the lesson that he adioined Ye shal know them by their fruites That is to say when they be gin not onely to alleadge those wordes but to expound them and citing them as true prophets do not interprete them as true prophets then are the wolues seene by their teeth and rauening then are their bloudy natures known for all their fleeces then are the faithfull teachers discerned from seducers the true Apostles from the false the Angell of light from the Angell of darknes the ministers of righteousnes from the ministers of Satan Which thinges set downe and prosequuted more amply and fully he draweth in fine vnto this conclusion the summe of all his treatise that although the scriptures alone be sufficient for all pointes of faith yet is it not sufficient to haue a shew of the wordes but we must also haue the substance of the sense that is the true and naturall meaning of the scriptures Now if this discourse of his be weighed whole and not a parcell of it seuered from the rest what can you proue thereby more then I will graunt Nay more then I haue graunted and proued alreadie when I shewed that the right sense of the scripture expounded by the scripture is the sword of Gods spirit wherewith all heresies must be vanquished The Deuill you say alleaged the wordes of the scripture against Christ. He did so Yet he alleaged thē not wholy entirely as Vincētius hath them but as the Euangelistes rehearse them maimedly Wherein if Vincentius obseruing the attempt that the Deuill alleaged the wordes of the scripture had withall obserued the suttletie of the tempter how he alleaged them hée might haue better noted the deceites of heretikes abusing scripture then he did and so haue better fensed the right-beléeuing Christians with power of scripture then he hath For he reporteth it so as if the Deuill had
purposes But you may not be touched with any such suspiciō Why Because the doctrines which you professe are not olde and ample heresies you say no not heresies ours are so not yours Whether in opinions of faith and religion which are in controuersie betwéene vs you or we doo hold heresies that is the point in question Your or mine yea or nay is no sufficient proofe of either But of which soeuer it shall appeare by conference that they are repugnant to the holy scriptures let them be iudged heresies and the men heretikes who stubburnly mainteine them Thus much you can not choose but grant that your opinions are olde and spread abroad for you claime antiquitie vniuersalitie whereof you say that our opinions haue neither It is more likely therefore by Vincentius that you who by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth should corrupt the Fathers then wée who haue not had it And in very truth as the worship of Images the greatest abomination that first preuailed in Poperie was confirmed by writings very vncertaine and fabulous yea by dreames of women and visions of Deuils in the second Nicen Councell as the thing it selfe and great Clerkes of your owne testifie so the rest of your errours which ouerflowed Christendome in darkenes of superstition haue bene most authorised by forged déedes and bastard writings begotten by some varlets and fathered on the Doctors The Schoolemen and Canonists whose handes were chiefe in this iniquitie did beare the whole sway for many yeares togither in Uniuersities and Churches The Doctors Fathers were pretended much but more pretended then regarded and their bookes corrupted what through ignorance of scriueners who copied them out before the vse of printing what through impudence of forgers who coined counterfeites in their names Now when they lay thus distressed and diseased in the dust of Libraries Erasmus a man of excellent iudgement and no lesse industrious then learned and wittie did enterprise first to cure them and brought them foorth into the light In the workes of S. Ierome which were most of all depraued aboue others chiefly the former tomes he did what he could both to clense them from blemishes and to lighten them with his notes Hee professed that his coniectures in restoring of places had not satisfied himselfe alwaies He promised that if any man should restore them better hee would both embrace his trauaile very gladly and reioyce at the publike profit What sparkle of thankfulnes but I let go thankfulnes what sparkle of ingenuitie was there and good nature in Marian Victorius who requiteth such a worke so carefully attempted so painfully performed so modestly excused with the tauntes and contumelies of erring of lying of craftines of ignorance of heresie of impietie Aristotle writeth of them who begin a thing in pointes of learning that although they seeme to do lesse then others who receiue it of them and after adde thereto yet they do more in deed because the beginning of euery thing is hardest and it is easie to adde Wherevpon he craueth of such as he hath sought to benefite by his labour thankes for that he found pardon for that hee missed If Victorius haue profited no better in the schoole of Christ let him goe to Aristotle and learne first to thinke more humbly of him selfe afterward to deale more modestly with others And you who like of him because hee findeth fault with the dooings of Erasmus as a shoomaker did with the picture of Apelles for missing in a shoo-latchet may know that good and learned men among your selues haue found fault with him for being bold beyond the shoo That dooth Molanus witnes one of your chiefest Doctors and Censors of bookes who in S. Ieromes workes set foorth at Anwerpe hath therefore circumcised the lippes of Victorius Hart. Molanus hath reproued and corrected him for vnciuill spéeches against the person of Erasmus as wherein he past the boundes of Christian modestie not for ouersight in that hée laid errours to Erasmus charge Though the speciall point for which we blame Erasmus is not this so much of errours in S. Ierome His censures on S. Austin are misliked most in that he reiecteth sundry bookes as counterfeit which Torrensis proueth to bee S. Austins owne Whereof the importance and danger is the greater because some will haue nothing taken for S. Austins but what Erasmus hath allowed Rainoldes Molanus did couer the sinnes of Victorius whē he found no other fault with his notes but of vnciuill spéeches If fauour to the man and fansie to the cause had not made him partiall he might haue said of him that as he past the bounds of Christian modestie in railing at Erasmus person so had he past the boundes of Christian truth in noting errours of Erasmus But he that would affirme Erasmus to be ignorant of the Greeke toong wherof his workes so many both in diuinitie and humanitie through all sortes of writers doo proclaime the contrarie néedeth no other Censor to aduertise men with what eyes he looked into Erasmus dooings It was not Erasmus ignorance of Greeke which bredde so many errours in his corrections of or notes vpon S. Ierome It was his knowledge of the Latine the Romane churches faults It was his skil of the Italian abuses of the Pope It was the triacle which he giueth that séemeth poison vnto you These thinges because they moued many to suspect that somewhat in Popery was not of the best it was thought expedient that they should bee taken out of S. Ierome Victorius to doo it with a faire shew pretended other errours but through too much choler hee bewraied his humour He lacked that discretion which hath bene shewed since by the Diuines of Louan in setting foorth the notes of Viues on S. Austin For they haue omitted a great many things wherin Viues touched their Popes and Churches sores yet say they not so much Only they say that certaine things are omitted certaine as not many and errours they name them not neyther tell they what Now if the notes of Viues on S. Austin haue found such disfauour the censures of Erasmus on him may better beare it And to say the truth they haue deserued it at your handes For in those censures hath Erasmus shewed that many bookes doo falsely beare S. Austins name by which as by the warrant of S. Austins iudgement sundry of your Schoolemens and Canonists dreames haue bene aduanced and aided But he reiecteth some as counterfeit you say which Torrensis proueth to be S. Austins owne And what maruell is it if amongst hundreds he were deceiued in one or two And hauing had triall of many false titles he thought somefalse which were not A fish that hath béene touched once with the hooke is saide to feare the hooke vnder euery meate They who
the Spirit of truth and whether any of them were who can say We haue no assurance then of mysticall senses which may be mens fansies Onely the literall sense which is meant vndoubtedly by the holy Ghost is of force to proue the assured truth and therefore doth binde in matters of beliefe And this is so cléere that your owne Doctors acknowledge it and teach it euen he whom you alleaged For he saith It is agreed betweene you and vs that forcible aguments ought to be drawne onely from the literall sense and that is surely knowne to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost As for mystical senses it is not alwaies sure whether the holy Ghost meant them vnlesse they be expounded in the scriptures as that in Iohn you shall not breake a bone of him Which excepted it is a folly to go about to proue the pointes of faith forcibly by mysticall senses Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures that the wordes of Christ touching one Pastor are meant as of him selfe by the literall sense so by the mystical of the Pope you sée that Father Robert saith it is a folly to go about to proue the Popes supremacie by them if you will proue it forcibly Now what I say of one Pastour the same I say of high Priest By whom the law of Moses doth signify the hye priest literally the epistle to the Hebrewes doth shew that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense eyther literall or mysticall I finde not in the scriptures Hart. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must stil haue a hye Priest amongst thē on earth to be their chief iudge Rainoldes Were finde you that Hart. In the seuentéenth chapter of the booke of Deuteronomie euen in these wordes If there rise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates then shalt thou arise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall choose and thou shalt come to the Leuiticall priestes and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall shewe thee from that place that the Lord shall choose and thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall enforme thee According to the law which they shall teach thee and according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee shalt thou doo Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall shew thee neither to the right hand nor to the left And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest who serueth then the Lord thy God by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye and thou shalt take away euil out of Israell Here the hye Priest is made the chiefe iudge to heare and determine hard and doubtfull causes amongst the people of God And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and iudge but the Pope onely Rainoldes Now the first chapter of the booke of Genesis would serue you as well to proue the Popes supremacie if it were considered For it is written there In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth Hart. What meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay aske that of him who doth expound it so saying that whosoeuer resisteth his supremacy resisteth Gods ordinance vnlesse he faine as Manichee did that there are two beginninges which is false hereticall because as Moses witnesseth not in the beginninges but in the beginning God created heauen and earth See in the beginning not in the beginninges and therefore not many are hye Priestes of the Church but the Pope onely Hart. The place which I alleaged doth plainely speake of the high Priest and so it doth serue my purpose more fitly then this which doth not touch him Howbeit as learned men when they haue proued a point by stronger arguments are wont to set it foorth with floorishes of lighter reasons rather to polishe it as it were then to worke it and frame it so the Pope hauing brought better euidence for proofe of his supremacie doth trimme it vp with this of Genesis as you would say by an allusion Rainoldes An illusion you should say But the places both as well this of Genesis as that of Deuteronomie are taken in a mysticall sense of your owne so that to winne a matter which must be wunne by sound proofe they are both of like force because that neyther is of any For the literall sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concerne the Iewes to whom the Lorde spake it by his seruant Moses Now how dangerous it is to buyld as vpon scripture thinges which are not grounded vpon the literal sense thereof we may learne by the mysticall sense of that place which a Pope giueth and no common Pope but Innocentius the third the Father of the Lateran-councel in which your popish Shrift and Transsubstantiation were enacted first He in a decretal which is enrolled in the canon law as a rule of the gouernemēt of the Church for euer doth bring foorth that same place of Deuteronomie to proue that the Pope may exercise tēporal iurisdiction not onely in his owne dominion but in other countries too on certaine causes And because Deuteronomi◠is the second lawe by interpretation it is proued saith he by the force of the worde that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the newe Testament Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus that the place which the Lord hath chosen is Rome the Leuiticall Priestes are his brethren the Cardinals the iudge is himselfe the vicar of Christ the iudgements are of three sortes the firs◠betweene blood and blood is meant of criminall ciuil causes the last betweene plague and plague of ecclesiastical and criminall the midle betweene cause cause pertaineth vnto both ecclesiasticall ciuill In the which when any thing shal be hard or doubtfull recourse must be had to the iudgement of the See Apostolike that is of Rome whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey he is adiudged to dye that is to be cut off as a dead man from the communion of the faithfull by excommunication Lo this is a mysticall sense of that place which you alleaged out of Deuteronomie It runneth verie roundly with the Popes supremacie But Christian States I hope will hold the literall sense against it For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius as catholike the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians both in ecclesiasticall causes and ciuill The mysterie of iniquitie did worke verie fast when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built vpon such mystical senses Hart. I
he noteth two differences betweene a shepeheard and a theefe the one in their doctrine the other in their ende In their doctrine that a theefe entreth not in by the doore the lawfull way but the shepeheard entreth in by the doore that is he preacheth Christ. For Christ is the doore and by him the shepeheard leadeth his sheepe in and out to feede them and saue them In their ende that a theefe commeth to steale kill destroy that is to spoile them of their life of life spirituall and eternall but the shepeheard cometh that they may haue life and haue it in aboundance Whereby it is euident that Christ did meane the same by theeues and robbers here which other where by false Prophets Beware of false Prophets which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues For els neither they could haue béene noted well by the propertie of woolues that is to kill destroy neither had his doctrine and diuision of teachers béene perfit to his purpose neither were his answer fit against the Pharises who touched him as a seducer and not as an intruder not for succession but for doctrine If you beleeue not me that this is the natural meaning of the text you may beléeue S. Austin who saith that to enter into the shepefold by the doore is to preach Christ whom who so preach not rightly they are theeues and robbers Of these for example hee nameth Arius who yet succéeded lawfully as D. Stapleton graunteth though he counte him a woolfe and not a theefe and a robber vpon a point that Austin saw not In which point his fansie carried him so farre that whereas Austin said we must loue the Pastour tolerate the hireling beware of the theefe he would adde to Austin and driue away the woolfe as though S. Austin meant not the woolfe by the theefe and driue away by beware belike nor Christ neither when he said beware of woolues How much more séemely had it béene for Stapleton to haue followed Austin with your best interpreters then so to haue corrected him Hart. He doth not correct him so much as varie from him and that not on his owne but on S. Cyprians iudgement a Father most auncient Whose definition if he liked better then hee did Austins why might he not take it Rainoldes Good reason if it were as true as S. Austins But what is that definition Hart. A theefe is he who climeth vp another way that is as Cyprian writeth who succeeding no man is ordained of him selfe Rainoldes These wordes are Cyprians wordes but the definition is Stapletons definition For Cyprian doth not write them more of a theefe then of a woolfe Hart. He writeth them of Nouatian who entred not in by the doore into the shepefold but climed vp another way Therefore he writeth them of a theefe Rainoldes He writeth them of Nouatian who was a false prophet and came in sheepes clothing but inwardly was a rauener Therefore he writeth them of a woolfe For Cyprian doth count Nouatian the heretike both a theefe and a woolfe Which proueth that sense that I gaue thereof against your distinction who seuer woolues from theeues But Stapleton in handling this place of Cyprian doth playe vs thrée feats which if they be marked will shew with what arte so many sayinges of the Fathers are interlaced in his bookes First he chaungeth the wordes For where it is in Cyprian a se ipso ortus est arose of him selfe Stapleton doth reade it a se ipso ordinatus est is ordained of him selfe Hart. It hath béene heretofore reade so in some printes Rainoldes It hath so but amisse For Nouatian was ordeined of others though vnlawfully as Eusebius sheweth and Cyprian did know Wherevpon that faâ—tie reading is amended in the later printes out of writen copies and a note reprouing it least it créepe in againe is left by Pamelius Whose edition sith Stapleton prayseth as best corrected and foloweth it for aduantage to chaunge a worde of it here in such sort it was a feate and had a purpose But the second feate doth excel this For because Cyprian saith of a théefe that he succeeding no man arose of him selfe Stapleton doth take him as though he had defined a theefe by those wordes Whereof he would haue the reader to conceiue that they who haue succession and are ordeined lawfully can not bee theeues a thing which Cyprian meant not But therein he dealeth with the wordes of Cyprian as if a man should say to define a doctour a doctour is he who interpreteth the scriptures that is as Cyprian writeth who doth corrupt the gospell and is a false expounder of it For these are Cyprians wordes and spoken of Nouatian Doctours But they were not spoken to define a doctour For then they should be verified as well of all doctours as they be of Doctour Stapleton Yet he who should define a doctour so to proue him one and that out of Cyprian should serue him such a feate as he doth serue a theefe and take him in the snare which him selfe hath framed Hart. As though that of theues some might be good and some naught There may be so of doctours Rainoldes No. But as doctours some are good some are naught and sith that both these qualities are incident into doctours a doctour should not be defined by eyther of them so theeues some succéede some doo not succéede and sith that both these qualities are incident into theeues no one of them can open the nature of a theefe nor both in déed pithily Wherefore to say in defining a theefe that he succeedeth no man it is a iuggling feate which conuerteth accidents into the shape of substance and maketh essence of a qualitie A feate that is vsed much by D. Stapleton doth amaze the simple who sée not the sleight where they who discerne the conueiance of it estéeme it as a feat of sophistrie But the third feate is a feate of foly For when he had made foure kindes of teachers the first pastors the next hirelings the third theeues the last woolues and graunted that they all are called to that office by lawfull succession excepting theeues onely he diuideth hirelings into two sortes and hauing proued that both of them do teach the truth concludeth therupon that an vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to succession Then the which what kinde of legierdemaine can be more fond to say in the conclusion that they who by lawfull succession are teachers doo surely teach the truth because that hirelings doo and pastours when he had shewed before that not onely they doo succéed lawfully but also woolues who teach errours Hart. It was not his meaning that succession alone hath vndâ—uted certaintie of doctrine and faith but succession with vnitie For other-where he saith that to this prerogatiue of Bishops and Priestes there are required
and theirs hee would take their sonnes and appoint them to waite vpon him to bee his horsmen footemen captaines to eare his land to reape his haruest to make him instruments of warre instruments to serue his charets he would take their daughters to dresse him sweete ointments and be his cookes and bakers hee would take their fieldes and vineyardes and oliue trees the best giue them to his seruants yea the tenth of their seede and of their vineyardes giue it to his courtiers and to his seruants he would take their men their maydes their youth their cattel put them to his worke he would take the tenth of their flockes and to conclude they should be his seruants euen so when the Pope had gotten the kingdome that is the supremacie ouer the Israelites of God that is Christians he tooke their sonnes daughters nay their fathers and mothers who should beget them in the gospell and féede them with the milke of life and appointed them to serue him to be his Chauncellors Treasurers Secretaries Maisters of requestes Clerkes of the Escheker Legates in peace to goe on embassages in warre to looke vnto his armies he tooke their bishoprickes and benefices and prebendes the best and gaue them to his seruants yea the first fruites and tithes of their liuings and gaue them to his Courtiers and to his seruants he tooke their pastours their doctours their elders their deacons and put them to his worke hee tooke the tithe of their Churches nay their whole Churches and to conclude both they and theirs were made to serue him If you M. Hart who haue béene at Rome and séene the Popes person haue not yet perceiued this policie of the Pope your want of experience or rather your education in a Popish Seminarie where other kinde of bookes are giuen you to reade then as bewray such mysteries may beare the fault of it But there are two Italians of your owne profession Franciscus Sansouinus and Onuphrius the Frier of whom the one hath writen a treatise of the gouernment of the Court of Rome the other sundry bookes of the Popes and Cardinals By them you may learne it For Onuphrius sheweth that there are three sortes of the Church-officers which are named Cardinals the first Bishops the second Priestes and the last Deacons Priestes and Deacons of the parishes that are within Rome Bishops of the cities that lie néere about it When Rome had receiued the Christian faith and the Church encreased there from day to day the faithfull were diuided into sundry parishes for their better gouernment and had Elders and Deacons ordeined to attend them Elders or as you terme them Priestes and I will cal them so because I speake of Cardinals knowne by that title were they to whom the charge of ministring the word and sacracraments Deacons to whom the care for the poore of the church and their prouision was committed Now at first the parishes had each but one Priest while they being small one pastor could discharge the duetie But after when the number of the faithfull grewe each of them had more And hence did the name of Cardinals arise that he who was chiefe amongst the Priestes of one parish was called the Cardinall Priest that is to say principall In like sort when the seuerall wardes of the citie could not be serued by seuerall Deacons but each of them had moe the chiefe amongst the Deacons of the same ward was called the Cardinall Deacon The name being worshipfull amongst Priestes and Deacons of the citie of Rome spread to the Bishops that dwelt néere about and they were called Cardinall Bishops though it were long first For amongst the auncients it was neuer heard of neither might with reason fith they being equall in power to other Bishops cannot be called Cardinall in respect of them Yet in time by custome I know not how they got it Wherefore of the Cardinals of Rome six are Bishops the Bishop of Alba Tusculum Praeneste Sabine Portuese and Ostia the rest whose number in olde time was certaine according to the number of parishes and wardes now they are more or fewer as the Pope will they were three score and three when this was writen by Onuphrius but all the rest are Priestes or Deacons And for almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ although the Pope employed them much in his affaires yet ordinarily they liued on their charge and kept their calling and degree The honour power of Cardinall Bishops was as the Bishops of other cities The Cardinal Priests and Deacons were neither Bishops themselues nor equall vnto them in dignitie And if a Cardinall Priest were chosen as worthy of a greater charge to be a Bishop els where he left his place in Rome and ceased to be Cardinall because it is ordered by the auncient rules of ecclesiasticall discipline that one man may haue but one ecclesiasticall charge and therefore no man might be a Cardinall Priest of Rome and Bishop of an other Church But after that the Pope had trodde the Emperour vnder féete lifted vp his own throne aboue the highest thrones on earth he lifted vp withall the maiestâ—ie of the Cardinals as of his Noble men and Counsellours and vsed them as principall pillars of his state He gaue to them alone the right of choosing the Pope the people Prince and clergie being robbed of it He decked them with honour of wearing redd hattes and going first before Bishops afterward before Arch-bishops and at the last before Patriarkes He chose the greatest Prelates of sundry dioceses and prouinces as of Yorke for example and Canterburie in England Rhemes and Roan in France Toledo in Spaine Lisbon in Portugall Milan Rauenna Venice in Italie in Germanie Coolcin Trier and Mens in Boheme Praga Cracouia in Poleland Strigonium in Hungarie and so forth the chiefest Bishops of all Christendome to be his Cardinall Priestes and Deacons Yea they were glad to be so because the Cardinalship was a degree vnto the Popedome Neither did he accustome them to giue ouer their Bishoply charge that others placed in their roomes might supplie that duetie and they might attend their charge of Cardinall Priestship and Deaconship in Rome but for the better maintenance of their owne porte and strengthning of the Popedome he suffered them to keépe the liuings of their Bishoprickes and Cardinalships both Wherein least he might séeme to breake that rule of discipline one man to haue but one charge he tooke order that they should not be called Bishops though they had Bishoprickes How then Forsooth a Bishop if he were made Cardinall Deacon must be called elect Bishop if he were made Cardinall Priest must be called perpetuall administrator of his Bishopricke As namely Thomas Wolsey Archbishop of Yorke when he was made Cardinall parish-priest of Rome he must be called not Archbishop but Cardinall Woolsey Priest
the last day and to curry fauour with Iulius the Pope hee translated into Latin a litle Gréeke booke containing Constantines donation which hee found where in the Popes librarie Gratian is more ancient and the whole charter of the donation is in him But neither is it extant in old copies of Gratian as they doo witnesse who haue seene them neither are we sure by either old or new in which it is extant that Gratian did put it in For in ech sort of them both writen and printed it is entitled palea that is to say chaffe which note as a learned and famous lawier thinketh is set to those chapters that were not first inserted into the booke by Gratian but added after in the margent by Gratians interpreters as any of them thought good and in the best and auncientest copies they are omitted wholy for the most part Now if in Gratian it crept out of the margent thus into the text much more is it likely that Iuo caught it so too For if it had béene of auncient time in Iuo when Gratian compiled the booke of decrees it is not to be thought that Gratian a man who forgeth autours often and counterfeiteth priuileges for lesse aduantage of the Pope would haue left him out such a Princely priuilege if he had found it in an autour Hart. It is an easie matter with shiftes and surmises to discredit autours as you doo Picernus Gratian and Iuo Or if it be true that Iuo and Gratian did not themselues record it yet there is no cause why the Greeke copy translated into Latin by Picernus should be discredited because it was found in the Popes librarie For there are many rare bookes in the Popes librarie that are not els where to be found Rainoldes But the Greeke text of Constantines donation was els where to be found For it is in Balsamon translated into Latin also by Gentian Heruet And this doth discredit the matter so much more because the Latin charter or chaffe that is in Gratian doth differ from the Greeke in many thinges Besides that Picernus hath shewed a speciall fauour to the Pope in it vnlesse the Greeke which hee found in the Popes librarie were somewhat better fyled then that which Heruet found in Balsamon For wherein Gratians Latin it is that the Emperour gaue vnto the Pope the places cities and prouinces of Italie or of the westerne countries as it is in Heruet too Picernus hath mended it and made it of Italie and of the westerne countries Which was a small token of no small good will that Picernus shewed towarde the Pope against Valla who noted that word or abused for and as vnlikely that the Emperour or the Emperours officers should write so in a charter of so great importance and in so large a deed of gift Though this is the least of many coniectures that Valla maketh by the style to proue corruption in the déed Which all for the most part Picernus hath washed away by his translation But if you thinke that thâ—se thinges which I speake of Gratian or Iuo or Picernus are shiftes and surmises then I pray remember that their textes speake â—or the greater donation which Genebrard confesseth himselfe to be forged And therefore Picernus Iuo and Gratian are cited to no purpose by him who defendeth not the greater but the lesser donation of Constantine Hart. Yet what say you then to his last witnesses who speake directly for the lesser They are the Iuish writers Rabbi Abraham and Aben Ezra For Rabbi Abraham in Zikron Dibre Romi saith that Constantine hauing built Constantinople went out of Rome and gaue it to the Priestes of the Idumeans so they call Christians to this day And Aben Ezra vpon the eleuenth chapter of Daniel on these wordes And he shall care for no God the meaning is saith he that Constantine did beautifie the place of Rome which was his seate and lâ—ft it to the iniquitie so they speake wickedly of the holy Apostles which is called Peter Rainoldes Rabbi Abraham and Aben Ezra did liue about the same time that Gratian did or rather somewat since when the Pope had gotten fully from the Emperour the soueraintie in Rome They looked to the state of their owne times and saw that the citie which Constantine had was now possessed by the Pope Wherefore sith the bruit of Constantines donation was set abroch then no maruell if they tasted of it chiefly sith they had so litle skill in stories Hart. Great skill Rabbi Abraham For hee wrote a Chronicle which Genebrard hath translated out of Hebrue inâ—o Latin entitled Cabbala historica Rainoldes Whrein he bewrayeth the greatnes of his skill For the Rabbi chronicleth there that our sauiour Iesus of Nazareth as he calleth him was not borne in the dayes of Augustus the Emperour and Herode king of Iury but aâ—ore that time aboue a hundred yeares And therevpon hâ—e chaâ—geth the stories of other nations with errour for writing so of Christes age but we saith he haue the true tradition storie out of Misna and Talmud whose autours haue not changed any whit of thinges Wherefore if Rabbi Abraham were no better séene in the storie of the Iewes in that point whereof he might haue learned the truth by their owne â—osephus you may giue him leaue to be ouerseene in the Roman stories As for Aben Ezra his wordes may be taken in a tâ—ue meaning that Rome by the occasion that Constantine leâ—t it came afterwarde in processe of time to the iniquitie which is called Peter that is to the Pope For in déed the Emperours abiding at Constantinople made it easier for the Popes to practise those treasons which gâ—t them Rome at last But admit he meant that Constantine gaâ—â— Rome to the iniquitie called Peter Will Genebrard confesse thâ—â— the Pope the Peter of Rome is an iniquitie because that Aben Ezra saith so Hart. No. For he saith that of a Iewish stomacke Rainoldes And he saith the other of a Romish errour Wherfore if Genebrard refuse his owne witnesse in that he speaketh of affection I haue greater reason to except against him in that he misseth through ouersight And thus you may sée how well the donation of Constantine is proued by the witnesses alleaged either of your selfe or of your Chronicle-writer Wherein his abusing of all sortes of autors thereby of you will be the more euident if it bee compared with the dealing of a Bishop that matcheth him in Poperie but passeth him in modestie I meane of Melchior Canus Who alleageth Eusebius Rufinus Theodoret Socrates Sozomen Eutropius Victor Ammianus Marcellinus and in a word all historians with other approued autours to shew that the donation of Constantine is forged euen the same donation by which the Popes claime the temporal dominion of the citie of Rome and you with your Chronicles doo sooth their falshood in
breath doo say that the same thing is both writen and vnwriten Yet Father Robert dealeth wiselyer and like a Iesuite who séeing the danger of naming speciall men and places doth shrowd himselfe in the generall of Councels Popes and Fathers As if an horse-stealer being to giue account of whom and where he got his horses should say that he bought them of incorporations horse-coursers and honest men within Christendom Hart. Will you leaue your roauing and come vnto the marke now Rainoldes It is a roauing marke we shote at and I am come néerer it then you would haue me But what shall be your next baâ—â— Hart. I told you that I would proue it next by the Fathers It agreeth very well with your spirit that you should call this a bolt Rainoldes Well enough as you shoote it For although the Lord hath planted the writings of the Fathers as trees in his Church as in a Paradise whereof there may be made good shaftes blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate yet not all the shaftes which you do vse of theirs are good your fletchers at whose handes you take them vpon trust doo marre them in the making that I may iustly call them rather bolts of Papistes then shafts of the Fathers Who if they were aliue might say to you in like sorte as did a Poet to Fidentinus This booke Sir Fidentinus which thou doost reade is mine But thou by reading it amisse beginst to make it thine Hart. Will you promise then to yelde vnto the Popes supremacie if I proue it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applyed rightly Rainoldes I truly But I must doo it with a protestation for my defense against such quarrelers as Bishop Iewell fell vpon Hart. With what protestation Rainoldes With this that I promise to yéelde vnto the Popes supremacie if you can proue it by the Fathers not becaâ—â—e I thinke that proofe to be sufficient of doubtfull matters in religion but because I know you are not able so to proue it Hart. Whether I be able or no so to proue it the thing it selfe will shew But if you thinke not that a sufficient proofe why saide you that the writinges of Fathers are as trees whereof there may be made good shaftes such as shall destroy their enimies in the gate yea that the man is blessed who hath his quiuer full of them Rainoldes It is writen in the Psalmes Except the Lord keepe the citie the keeper watcheth in vaine By the which wordes the Prophet séemeth to haue thought that the warde and watch of men is not sufficient for the defense of cities vnlesse the Lord assist them with his watch and ward How say is not this true Hart. So. What of that Rainoldes That is an answere to your question For the Prophet adding how God doth blesse men in giuing them children saith they are as arrowes in the hand of a strong man blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate If this be truly spoken of children well nurtured who yet are not sufficient to defend a citie without the Lordes assistance why might it not be spoken of Fathers well vsed and yet they not suffice to decide a controuersie without the worde of God For though I acknowledge there is good wood in them to make shaftes for the Lordes warres yet is not all their wood such some of it is knottie some lithy â—ome crooked And the best arrowes which are made thereof vnlesse they haue heades of stronger mettall then them selues out of the Lords armorie they are not sharpe enough to pearce into the harte of the kinges enimies as are the arrowes of our Salomon Wherefore as of your part if you hearken not to Moses and the Prophetes I haue no greate hope that Fathers will perswade you though they should rise from the dead so for my selfe I will assure you that neither dead nor quicke Fathers nor children shall perswade me any thing in matters of religion which they can not proue by Moses and the Prophetes For the Apostles preached not any thing but that which the Prophetes and Moses saide should come to passe And if a Father if a Saint if an Angell from heauen preach beside that which the Apostles preached let him be accursed This lesson I haue learned of Paul the Apostle and I subscribe vnto it If you can like it better out of a Fathers mouth learne it of S. Austin Who writing against the Donatists which could not proue by scripture their erroneous doctrine doth presse them with the same sentence and teach al Christians the same lesson whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life I will not say if we but if an Angel from heauen shall preach to you besides that which you haue receyued in the scriptures of the law and the Gospel that is to say the olde and new testament let him be accursed Hart. You mistake the meaning of S. Austins wordes For they are thus in Latin Proinde siue de Christo siue de eius ecclesia siue dâ— quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram Rainoldes I haue the right meaning of these wordes I trow for they are plaine of all thinges that doo concerne our faith and life Hart. I but heare the rest Non dicam si nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit licet nos sed â—mnino quod sequutus adiecit si angelus Rainoldes Neither doo I mistake these For he alludeth to the wordes of Paul to the Galatians Hart. But you mistake the meaning of that which doth follow Si angelus de coelo vobis annuntiauerit praeterqà um quod in scripturis legalibus euangelicis accepistis anathema sit Rainoldes Why doth he not meane the old new testameÌ„t as we call them by the scripâ—ures of the law and the gospell Hart. Yes but your errour is in the worde praeterquà m by which he meaneth contra quà m not beside that but against that For there are sundrie thinges of faith and life to be preached beside them in the scriptures of the law and the gospell but not against them Wherefore if it were so that the Popes supremacie could not be proued by scriptures yet the proofe of it by the Fathers might be good For it were not against the scriptures although it were beside the scriptures Rainoldes Praeterquà m id est contra quà m beside that which you haue receyued in the scriptures that is against that This is your Louanists glose Hart. Nay it is S. Austins as you may perceiue by his own wordes in an other place touching the same matter where he saith thus The Apostle did not say
Fathers that hath not beene abused so The Frier whom Stapleton doth commend greatly for diligence and iudgement Sixtus Senensis hath writen a discourse touching the false entitling of bookes whence it cometh and how to finde it out Therein he hath proued that bookes are fathered falsly not onely vpon Austin and Ierom whom I named but also vpon Ambrose Cyprian Athanasius Eusebius Emisenus Iunilius Cyrill Eucherius Arnobius yea Thomas of Aquine too With this discourse he closeth vp the former volume of his holy librarie in which hee hath shewed that Clemens Abdias Origen Chrysostome Hippolytus many mo haue had their names defaced with the same iniury Hart. There are many bookes entitled to the Fathers falsly we confesse I will not bring them in to witnesse against you or if I doo you may refuse them lawfully Rainoldes Then you will not bring in the storie of Abdias to proue that Peter gaue the whole power to Clemens which Christ had giuen him Or if you doo you license me to refuse him as fréely as I refused his coosin Clemens in the same point Neither will you bring Arnobius on the Psalmes to proue that who so goeth out of Peters Church shal perish as doth Stapleton Or if you doo you license me to refuse him as not the man whom Stapleton would haue him taken for Hart. You may refuse Abdias For Pope Paule the fourth reiected him amongst the bookes which he condemned as Sixtus recordeth But Arnobius is an ancient writer indéede more worthy of credit Rainoldes More worthy of credit then Abdias I graunt But he is not that writer most ancient whom Stapleton reporteth him to be For the most ancient Arnobius was elder as Sixtus also noteth then that he might heare of the heresie of Photinus Whereas this Arnobius who writeth on the Psalmes doth mention Photinus and write by name against his heresie Hart. Will you stand then to the iudgement of Sixtus which be the right and naturall graffes of the Fathers and which bee bastard slippes Rainoldes No. For though Sixtus did sée many thinges yet he saw not all and others may sée that which Sixtus ouersaw As for example there are two bookes touching the martyrdom of Peter and Paule bearing the name of Linus the first Bishop of Rome These doth Sixtus iudge to haue indeede béene writen by that ancient Linus as Faber also did before him But Claudius Espencaeus doth maruel that Faber a learned man and witty could be so perswaded sith Peter in that storie is made to withdraw the Roman wiues matrones from their husbands beddes vnder pretense of chastitie Which vnchristian doctrine repugnant to the lawes of godlinesse and honestie nether was it possible that Peter should teach neither is it likely that Linus should belye him with it And thus you sée an autor disallowed by Espencaeus on very sound reason whom Sixtus hath allowed of not so discretely Hart. But if you thus allow and disallow whom you list I may take paines in vaine For when I shall alleage this or that Father speaking most expressely for the Popes supremacie you haue your answere readie that he was ouerséene through error or ouerborne with affection or if he wrote in Gréeke he is mistranslated or if he wrote in Latin he was misse writen or misseprinted or if none of these will serue it is a bastard falsly fathered on him And whether your shifts be sufficient answeres your selfe will be iudge Hart. Nay not so nether For what soeuer I answere I will giue reason of it And whether my reasons bee sufficient proofes I will permit it as I said to the iudgement of the iurie that is of all indifferent men who haue skill to weigh the reasons that are brought and conscience to giue verdict according vnto that they finde Which triall if you like off as you séemed to doo then bring forth your witnesses and let vs heare now the Fathers speake themselues Hart. Content And I will â—irst beginne with the Fathers of the Church of Rome euen the auncient Bishops whom I alleaged before out of D. Stapleton namely Anacletus Alexander the first Pius the first Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Eusebius Melchiades Iulius and Damaâ—us To whom I adde also them whom you mentioned out of Melchior Canus to wéete the two Sixti with Eleutherius and Marcus For though some of them maintain it as by scripture some as by tradition yet all agrée in this that they maintaine the Popes supremacie Rainoldes In déed though their heades be turned one from an other yet their tailes méete together with a firebrand betwixt them as did the foxes of Samson But Samson had three hundred foxes haue you no more but these fewe Hart. Foxes doo you call those holy martyrs and Bishops And will you still vtter such blasphemous spéeches and set your mouth against heauen Rainoldes Against hell M. Hart and not against heauen For I reuerence the holy martyrs whom yoâ— named But foxes I call those beastes who wrote the thinges that Stapleton and Canus quote most lewdly and iniuriously to the martyrs and Bishops whom they are falsly fathered on as I will proue Which that I may doo with lesser trouble all in one I would you brought the rest if you haue any more of them Hart. More Why all the Bishops of Rome from them forward euen till our age haue taught the same doctrine as Canus declareth For it is confirmed by Innocentius the first in his epistles to the Councels of Carthage and Mileuis by Leo in his epistles to Anastasius and the Bishops of the prouince of Vienna by Gelasius in his epistl◠〈◊〉 Anastasius the Emperour and in the decrees which hee made with the seuentie Bishops and in his epistle to the Bishops of Dardania by Vigilius in his decrees the last chapter of them by Pelagius the second to the Bishops that were assembled in the citie of Constantinople by S. Gregorie in his epistle to Austin the Bishop of the Englishmen and by many other Popes whose testimonies are rehersed in the decrees and decretals in the twelfth distinction and seuenteenth and ninetéenth and twentieth and one and twentieth and two and twentieth and the eightieth distinction in the canon beginning with the worde Vrbes and the ninety sixth distinction in the canon Bene and in the foure and twentieth cause the first question throughout many chapters and in the fiue and twentieth cause the first question and in the title of election in the chapter beginning with the word Significasti and the title of priuileges the chapter Amiqua and the title of baptisme the chapter Maiores and the title of election in the sixth booke of decretals the chapter Fundamenta and in the Extrauagants the constitution Vâ—am sanctam which extrauagant constitution was renewe◠〈◊〉 approued by the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth So that you haue
most superexcellent the first the chiefe See and saith that she needeth not to helpe her selfe with these doutfull arguments which are drawn out of those epistles and put in the decrees of Gratian. But if he were not Cardinall when he gaue that iudgement yet Bellarmin was Iesuit when he confirmed it For when he read at Rome of the Popes supremacie and came to that argument of these epistles of the Popes he said that Father Turrian a learned man had defended them to be their owne but he thought the contrarie opinion to be truer Hart. How know you that he saide so when he read at Rome Rainoldes One of your owne friendes and felowes who was present told me he heard him say so And I do the rather beléeue his report because whereas Bellarmin him selfe hath set in writing the summe of those lectures he saith though not altogether so much yet in effect For I will not deny saith he but there are some errours crept into them Hart. But he addeth that certes he thinketh neuerthelesse that they are very ancient Rainoldes And why because Isidore maketh mention of them Which reason that he therefore doth thinke them very ancient because there is mention made of them by Isidore is as much in softer wordes as if he saide he thinketh them ancient howbeit not so ancient as they are pretended It may be that Bellarmin if he were aduertised that Isidore is forged too would thinke them lesse ancient by one degrée then yet he thought But that which the Iesuit was loth to deale with ouer roughly the Lawier a man of better minde and bolder spirit doth plainely auouch For he affirmeth it to be cléere and euident that those epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester are all false and counterfeit Now Siluester was Pope at the time of the Nicen Councell aboue thrée hundred yeares after Christ. And so the exception which I made against your first band of Popes who liued thrée hundred yeares after Christ and vpward you sée it is confirmed by a famous Lawier a man of great iudgement and of your owne religion Hart. What famous Lawier is it Or how doth he confirme it Rainoldes It is Antonius Contius the kinges professor of the law in the vniuersitie of Burges with whose notes allowed and approued by the priuileges of the Spanish French kinges your Canon-law was printed at Anwerpe by Plantin In one of those notes he saith that he hath brought many reasons in his preface by which he hath proued and shewed manifestly that the epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester are all false and counterfeit Behold he hath shewed it not by one or two ghesses but by many reasons and that manifestly Hart. But what are the reasons which he hath shewed it so by Rainoldes Nay I am bound to kéepe counsell in that For the preface wherin he brought those reasons is not printed Though I must cléere Plantin the printer from the faute For I caused a friend of mine to aske of him why it was not printed and what became of it whether a man might sée it or no. To whome he made answere that the Censour appointed to ouersee bookes to be allowed to the print would not suffer it to passe but what became of it hee remembred not nor knew how to procure it They that doo euill hate the light There was somewhat in that preface which the Censour would not that all men should see But the truth saith Tully which is pressed downe by many lewde men doth rise vp often times by this one meanes that either they who are craftie to deceiue are not bold to enterprise so much as they deuise or they who are bold enough to doo any thing haue not wit and subtiltie to conuey their practises Which consideration of a wise Oratour the folly of your Censour hath proued to be true For though he were bold enough to leaue out the preface of Contius yet he had not craft enough to raze out that note which mentioneth the preface And yet a litle after to sée the mischiefe of it how that should scape his handes he hath put in a note vnder Contius his name which would haue helped well if he had razed out the other For vpon a text of Pope Anacletus he hath made him say I know that some affirme those epistles of the Popes who next succceded Peter to be false and counterfeit but I would desire them to bring better proofe specially sith they are found in all the courses of canons that are extant collected by Isidore out of the booke of Damasus which was Bishop of Rome This note was iuggled in well by the Censour with this subscription Contius Pity that he tooke not away the other note where Contius is subscribed too Hart. Why suspect you the Censour that he should make that note and not Contius him selfe write it You haue a lesson in S. Paul that charitie is not suspicious Rainoldes Charitie is not sottish neither I learne that lesson of him too For as it is a vice to suspect vniustly so it is no vertue to beleeue vnwisely And S. Paul who saith that charitie beleeueth all thinges yet beléeued not that they meant him well of whom he vnderstood by his sisters sonne that they would lye in waite to kill him Charitie beleeueth all thinges which a wise and godly man should beléeue But to beleeue that Contius wrote that note him selfe were greater folly to the beleeuer then charitie to the Censour For how could it be that a learned man the kinges professor of the law should say concerning the same epistles first I haue shewed manifestly by many reasons that they are counterfeit and anon I know that some affirme them to be counterfeit but I would desire them to bring better proofe Chiefly sith the cause that is added there why he desireth better proofe is Isidores autoritie whom Contius in that respect doth discredit which note is printed too And afterwarde againe on other textes of those epistles he noteth sundrie pointes whereby it is manifest he saith that they are forged and yet againe on other he mentioneth the proofe thereof made in his preface yea and that is more vpon the same epistle of the same Anacletus on which that counterfeit note was coyned Contius againe noteth this epistle is falsely fathered on Anacletus as I aduertised in my preface Sée you not how rightly Tully did obserue that if either suttletie were bold or boldnesse craftie it would go hard with the truth The truth which is oppugned by those epistles of the Popes should haue had one patrone lesse to speake for her if your Censour had béene as politike to blot out the notes touching the preface as he was hardie to leaue the preface out and coine a new note against it And yet perhaps
possessed any they bore not themselues as Lordes of the whole Countie I meane they neyther claimed nor vsed the supremacie Hart. But will you graunt that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or vsed belongeth to their Sée and is theirs of right Rainoldes No. For the exception which I made against them was of two branches one that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope the other that they auouch more through affection then is true and right And this is very manifest not onely by the dealinges of them whom I named but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged Hart. Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason But they whom I alleaged of the second sort were holy men and Saints Rainoldes The Apostles of Christ I hope were Saintes too Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that they did not onely desire superioritie but also striue about it Innocentius Leo Gelasius Vigilius Pelagius and Gregorie the men whoÌ„ you alleaged were not greater then the Apostles And the praise which they giue to their See of Rome doth so excéede the truth that it beareth euident markes of their affection You might haue perceiued it in that which you cited out of Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God by which he saith they decreed that whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome For what were the Fathers who decréed that where is the sentence of God by which they did it Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches which not Innocentius onely but the rest too as I haue shewed in Leo doo lend their Church Peter Yea some flat repugnant to the holy scripture and that confessed by your selues For they say that all Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman The holy scripture maketh Ierusalem the spring of them They say that all Bishops had their honor and name from Peter The holy scripture teacheth that many had it from other Apostles not from him They say that the Church of Rome hath neither spot norwrinckle nor any such thing The holy scripture sheweth that the Church is sanâ—ctified framed to be hereafter not hauing spot or wrinckle or any such thing wheÌ„ Christ shal make it glorious triumphant in heauen not but that it hath such while it is militant on the earth Which is so apparant that not the Fathers only but Thomas of Aquine also and D Stapleton confesse it Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged it cannot be denied but they had affections and yéelded thereunto as men Howbeit the thirde sort I graunt are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture but they must abuse yea coine scripture too for maintenance of their Papall port They can teach the Church that the Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops vpon this condition if they will be sworne to him because wheÌ„ Christ committed his sheepe vnto Peter he did condition with him saying if thou loue me feede my sheepe They can teach the Church that the Pope hath power ouer all powers Princes of the earth none hath power ouer him because the spirituall man iudgeth all thinges yet hee himselfe is iudged of no maÌ„ They can teach the Church that Christ ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars who by the testimony of the booke of kinges must needes be so obeyed that he who obeieth them not must die the death and as it is read otherwhere Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church Hart. That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges is in the booke of Deuteronomie The text is true scripture though the place mistaken And though it belong not to the Pope immediatly Rainoldes Nay neuer goe about to salue it M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we haue alredy handled Pope Leo the tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie Deuteronomie for the Papacie But what soeuer you think of the third or seconde or any sort of Popes it is against all law both of God and man that they should bée witnesses in their own matter And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better the iury will cast you out of all controuersie For if I should beare witnesse of my selfe saith Christ my witnesse were not true None are fit witnesses in their own causes no not though they were as worthy meÌ„ as Scipio was amoÌ„gst the Romans It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall Iohn a Noke must haue this land for Iohn a Noke saith so The Canonistes themselues when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie doe note that it is a familiar kind of proofe meaning such belike as that in the common prouerbe Aske my felow if I be a theefe Which they might note the better because it is euideÌ„t that the Popes haue stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power as great Diuines among you haue written in these very termes Hart. The power which they claimed hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men But it was no more then their right and due Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers Rainoldes Of whom Hart. Of the chéefest of them both Gréeke and Latine For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first and to Caelestinus Epist. 90.92.95 S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius Epist. 1. 2. S. Basil to the Pope in his time Epist. 52. S. Ierom to Damasus Epist. 57.58 tom 2. and other likewise to others that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment Rainoldes If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie I must request the iury to haue an eye to the issue For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise and counsell some by their autoritie and credit some by both By their aduise and counsell as Ierom of Damasus By their autoritie credit as Chrysostome of Innocentius By both as Basill Austin and the Bishops of Afrike of the Popes in their time Bernard somewhat more But he liued yesterday in comparison of the rest and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers Though neither he by this
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
or the hauing of it corrupted In the which respect Christ who giueth charge that his sheepe be fedde chargeth that they be taught to obserue those thinges which he commanded his Apostles And Peter hauing shewed that the faithfull are begotten a new by Gods word exhorteth them to desire the milke of the word the sincere milke not corrupt with any trumperie that they may grow thereby And they who are warned to heare the Pharises sitting in the chaire of Moses are warned to beware of the leauen of the Pharises Wherefore a church that will be whole and sound must neither be famished with want of Gods worde nor haue it corrupted But the church of Rome doth bring in both corruption and want of the worde nor onely bring them in but also maintaine them obstinatly as wholesome The church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound nay she séemeth rather to be madde frantike For she bringeth in corruption of the worde to beginne with that by mingling and adulterating the word of God with mans word not one way but sundrie First in that she giueth autoritie canonicall that is diuine autoritie to the bookes called apocrypha which are humane Against the truth of the holy scripture which is gainsaid flatly by certaine pointes in the apocrypha against the cléere euidence of thinges therein recorded which by their repugnancie one vnto another doo shew that men were autours of them against the consent iudgement of the church of the old church wholy and of the best part of the new Secondly in that she receyueth traditions of men with equall reuerence and religious affection as she doth the scripture As though the holy scripture the most exact perfect squire of Gods will and rule of righteousnesse and wisedome sufficed not for faith and maners or the spirit of God could gainsay him selfe which must be imported by this of traditions some whereof do fight one against another some against the scripture In sooth this point is handled with a dutifull care and regarde of scripture which hath no greater reuerence at Rome then traditions and that all traditions are not obserued there it is playne by the Fathers whom them selues alleage Thirdly in that she willeth the Latin translation of the Bible commonly called S. Ieroms to be receiued throughout as sacred and canonicall and not to be refused on any pretense Whereas yet to let go the iudgement of S. Ierom other ancient Fathers the Papists them selues such as are most expert in the toungs amongst them acknowledge that translation to haue missed sometimes the meaning of the holy Ghost and not the words onely Euen Pagninus namely in the old testament Budaeus in the new Andradius and Arias Montanus in them both Fourthly in that about expounding of the scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one Whereby it falleth out that the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost shall be refused often but meanings and senses deuised by men though crossing one an other yet if they be currant for the time and practised as a Cardinall saith shall go for authenticall the baggage which the Schoole men haue sâ—iled Diuinitie with out of the Philosophers puddles and their owne shall be accounted holy the things which some Fathers haue handled more soundly shal be set aside as humane inuentions though they agrée with Gods word but other in the which they were ouerséene through weaknes of naturall affection or reason shall be approued as Gods worde though they procéede from mans fansie Fifthly in that she coopleth with the commandements of God the commandements of the church that is to say of men and that is more she coopleth therewith these commandements not as things indifferent but as necessarie to saluation So what soeuer filth deuotion as it is named indéede superstition hath brought or shall bring in that must be déemed to be pure religion and in vaine shall the Lord be worshipped of vs as of the Iewes in olde time with the commandements of men and good intentes as they call them which are abominable to God shall be preferred before obedience voluntarie religion condemned by the scriptures shall be taken vp as a most holy seruice of the Lord. Last of all in that she appointeth images to be had in churches for the instruction of the people as bookes so one supposeth which idiotes may reade in O miserable idiotes the instructing of whom is committed to a stocke which instructeth to vanities whose teacher is an image that is a teacher of lyes if we beléeue the Prophets And is it any maruell if they be naughtie scholers whose masters are dumbe idols the doctours of errours The church of Rome therefore hath brought in such corruption of the word of God what by the apocrypha what by traditions what by faultes of the translation what by the sense of her holding what by commandements of the church what by the teachers of idiotes that she séemeth to haue mingled the sustenance of life not with filth but with poyson and the wine of God not with water but with venoome and the bread of Christ not with leauen but with rats-bane or rather if I might speake so mens-bane As for want of Gods word which is the other cause of sicknesse how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith our auncestours felt by long experience and aged men may remember and histories of the church doo witnesse and they who are vnder the Popish yoke know For though she permitted sometimes in some places perhaps a small parcell of the word of God if I may call that Gods word which sauoured more of mens deuises then of God to be touched in the presence and assembly of the people by common cryers preachers such as they were yet she hath not onely not permitted to Christians but also hath hindered with no lesse impietie then inhumanitie yea and hindereth still that abundance and plentie which they ought to haue as it is writen Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisedome For whereas this plenty is gotten obteined by two speciall meanes to weete by hearing by reading the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publikely the other allowed priuatly to euery man at home both vsed and approued by the rules of the holy Ghost and the practise of holy companies and the iudgement of holy churches our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon not to Ierusalem as Cardinall Hosius saith if the holy scriptures be read in mother toongs doo kéepe them sealed vp in a straunge toong and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies that