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A42764 A late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the Church of England in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ... Gillespie, George, 1613-1648. 1644 (1644) Wing G753; ESTC R15751 28,350 44

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this that he preserveth strengtheneth and delivereth the Church invisible and all the members of his mysticall body from the malice of the Divell and the wicked world and also ruleth and commandeth their hearts by his spirit to walk in the wayes of his obedience But that the Kingly office of Christ reacheth so farre as to the externall government and order of a visible politicall ministeriall Church that I still doubt of Divine You observe not that my argument did conclude this very thing at which you stick that Christ hath appointed a certain policy and government and certain kinds of officers for the Church because hee hath fully and faithfully discharged his Kingly office in providing for all the necessities of his Church And that hee raignes and rules in his Church not only mystically but politically considered I suppose you cannot deny if you observe that otherwise a visible politicall Church is a body without a head and subjects without a King Therefore it is the ordinary expression of our Divines against Papists that the government of the Church is partly Monarchicall in regard of Christ our King and Law-giver partly Aristocraticall in regard of the Ministers and Officers and partly Democraticall in regard of certaine Liberties and Priviledges belonging to people Civilian I would understand whether the Reformed Churches hold the forme of their Ecclesiasticall government to be jure divino for I have heard that it was introduced among them only in a prudentiall way Divine I shall give you some cleare instances of their judgement such as come to my remembrance In the Book of the policy of the Church of Scotland I read thus This power and policy of the Church should lea●e upon the word immediately as the onely ground thereof and should bee taken from the pure fountaines of the Scriptures the Church hearing the voice of Christ the only spirituall King and being ruled by his Lawes In the French confession it is said we beleeve that this true Church ought to bee governed by that Regiment or Discipline which our Lord Iesus Christ hath established ●n the Belgick Confession I find words to the same purpose We beleeve say they That this Church ought to be ruled and governed by that spirituall Regiment which God himselfe hath delivered in his word See Harm Confes. Sect. 11. If the question were only this whether the Divine right of this or that form of Church-Government is to be mentioned and held forth in the ordinance of Parliament for my part I should not contend much for that the businesse going right otherwise But it belongeth at least to the Assembly of Divines to satisfie the consciences of men by holding forth the institution and ordinance of Jesus Christ which if it bee not done our proceedings shall not be conformable to those of other Churches Civilian Well then goe on you did bring an argument from the Kingly office of Jesus Christ Let me heare what other arguments you have to make it appeare that God hath in his word descended so farre into paricularities with us as to appoint a certain forme of Church-government Divine This will appeare best when the particular forme of Church-government with the Scripturall grounds of it shall be taken into consideration This government is Iure divino Ergo a government is Iure divi●● This were too large a subject for our conference But I ●●mit you to what is largely written concerning it I shall only put you in mind that in all ages God hath by positive Lawes descended into many particularities with man Take for instance beside the positive Law before the fall the Commandement not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evill other positive Law● before the Law such as that of the distinction of clean and uncleane beasts Gen. 7. the Law not to eat blood Gen. 9. the Law of circumcision Gen. 17. Under the Law beside morall and forensicall observances there were many ceremoniall Statutes And under the Gospell Christ and his Apostles have left another Law which though it lay opon us neither many nor burthensome performances yet bindeth us to such and such things in Ecclesiasticall policy The particulars we find in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles especially to Timothy and Titus and Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. Civilian Many particulars of that kind there are in the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles But that those things were intended as perpetuall and binding ordinances is a great question And beside I have heard some learned men make a distinction betwixt Ius di●inum and Ius Apostolicum Divine This distinction was used by those that denyed the jus divinum of the Lords day But surely i● i● an i●● grounded distinction and those that make most use of it are forced also to distinguish betwixt Ius divinum and Ius Mosaicum holding that though God was the Author of the morall Law yet Moses no● God was the Author of the judiciall and ceremoniall Law as the Apostles did write some things as Christs Heraulds other things as Pastors or Bishops of the Churches that they were Authors of the latter promulgators only of the former and that therefore the former only were Iure divino Thus saith Salmeron but hee is in this contradicted by Bellarmine Maldonat Suarez and others Lorinus in Psal. 88.32 noteth that it was one of the errors of Valentinus and of the Gnosticks that the Decalogue only was from God and other Lawes from Moses and the Elders of Israel But what saith the Apostle himselfe after hee hath given rules concerning the policy of the Church Let the Prophets speak two or three and let the other judge and the Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets Let your women keep silence in the Churches c. Then he addeth 1. Cor. 14.37 If any man think himselfe to be a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things that I writ unto you are the Commandements of the Lord Doe wee not also find the laying on of hands reckoned among those cat●cheticall heads which the Apostles did deliver as perpetuall to all the Churches Heb. 6.2 Papists understand the Episcopall confirmation Dwerse of our writers understand ordination of Ministers and the severall kinds of Church officers However it is agreed on both sides it is a thing belonging to the policy of the Church not to the foundation of faith or piety I adde that the directions given to Timothy and Titus are standing ordinances for all the Churches as may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.15 and 6.14 and 2. Tim. 2.2 Civilian But Ratio mutabilis facit praeceptum mutabile The reason why there were ruling Elders and Deacons and Church-censures at that time was because there was no Chri●●ian Magistrate So that under a Christian Magistrate there is no necessity of such officers government or censures in the Church Divine I answer First there is no ground at all in Scripture for such a
causing their children to goe through the f●re as a sacrifice to their God Molech all these though murthers ye●●re done for Conscience sake men being perswaded in their conscience that they are doing good service to God as it is said of those that killed the Apostles What say you to that case shall the punishment of those be persecution for the cause of Co●science 5. I cannot marvell enough that it should be heard from the mo●th of any Christian that the Magistrate is to pun sh injuries done to the State but not injuries done to the Chur●h that he is to punish those who destroy mens bodies but not those that destroy mens soules that whosoever will draw away people from the obedience of the Magistrate and of the law of the Land must not be suffered but they who will draw away people from the truth of the Gospel and from the wayes of God such as Hymeneus and Philetus who overthrow the faith of some and their word will eat as doth a canker must escape unpunished And so Christian Magistrates and States shall take up the maxime which Tacitus tells was holden by Tyberius Caesar Deorum injurias Diis cura esse but for their part they shall stand by as Gallio did and care for none of those things Be astonished at this O ye heavens Civilian But in the meane time I can tell you one thing that it is a mighty prejudice that lies in the mindes of many against the Prysbetery that tyranny and rigour doe accompany it And this now bringeth into my minde some other prejudices I have seene a Booke come from Oxford entituled An Answer by Letter to a worthy Gentleman who desired of a Divine some reasons by which it might appeare how inconsistent Presbyteriall Government is with Monarchy In which I finde many things which breed an Odium of that Government Among other things it tells me that this is one of the Articles of the Presbyterian faith No Minister preaching in Publike sedition or Treason or railing at King Councell the Prince Iudges is accountable or punishable by King Parliament Councell or any Indicature whatsoever But from all hee may appeale to the Sanhedrum or Consistory as the sole and proper competent Iudge And as if this were a small thing not to subject to the Magisteate they will have the Magistrate subject to them insomuch that they may excommunicate the Magistrate even the King himselfe if he obey them not That the Presbytery hindereth the liberty of trade and commerce disgraceth and desameth young women for conversing familiarly with men suffereth not Land-Lords to sue for their rents and the like That they bring all cases and causes under their cognition and judgement sub formalitate scandali under the notion of scandall and for the glory of God It tells also a number of Stories and practicall examples for confirmation of those particulars What say you to that Divine I have seen and read the book which surely was written by the speciall inspiration of the father of lies that the ●mple people who never yet sawe a Presbytery may be made afraid of it as of some hellish monster as the French Friars made the people beleeve that the Hugonots were ugly monsters with Swines faces and Asses eares But men of understanding will not be taken with such bold and shamelesse calumnies as come from the pen of that son of Belial I could name both the Author and the lying Records of a persecuting Prelate whence he borrowed his stories in which there are many known untruths and where there is any truth in the matters of fact which he relates there is such addition of his own Interpretations of mens actions such variation of circumstances and such concealing of the true grounds ends and circumstances of such actions as maketh them to appear quite another thing then they were And if his stories of the speeches actions or opinions of particular men were all true as they are not yet how doth that prove that Presbyteriall government is inconsistent with Monarchy Magistracie Laws Trading Peace c. This must be proved from the principles or necessarie concomitants of Presbyteriall government not from the actions or speeches of this or that private man especially they having so said or done not in any reference to Presbyteriall Government but occasionally in reference to such or such persons or purposes As now if I should rake up the dunghill of all the Treasons Conspiracies Oppressions Persecutions Adulteries Blasphemies Heresies Atheisticall opinions Superstitions Prophanities of such or such Prelates of which the Histories of former times and late experience are full and thence conclude that Episcopall government is inconsistent with Monarchy with the safety of the Kingdome with the liberty of the Subject with the peace of the Church with piety c. Surely that same Author would be ready to answer me that this must be proved from their received principles nor from particular practises Now that Ministers preaching Treason or committing any other trespasse punishable by the law of the land is not to be judged by the Civill Magistrate nor any Civill Court but may appeale from all these to the Ecclesiasticall Judicatory is none of our principles but it is a Popish and Prelaticall usurpation as appeareth by the Brittish Ecclesiasticall constitutions collected by Spel●●an So that the Oxfordian missed his mark extreamly when he charged it upon Presbyterians who hold that Ministers are as much subject unto and as punishable by the Magistrate as any other of the Subjects And as Ministers are subject to every ordinance of man so we suppose the Christian Magistrate will not take it ill to be subject to all the ordinances of Jesus Christ I shall give you a short but clear account of our judgement concerning both these in the words of the second book of the Discipline of the Church of Scotland Chap. 1. As Ministers are subject to the judgement and punishment of the Magistrate in externall things if they offend so ought the Magistrates to submit themselves to the Discipline of the Church if they transgresse in matters of C●●science and Religion And lest you should think this proper to the Classicall and Synodicall government M. Cotton will tell you it is just so in the Congregationall government of the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven pag. 53. As the Church saith he is subject to the sword of the Magistrate in things which concerne the Civill Peace so the Magistrate if Christian is subject to the keyes of the Church in matters which concerne the peace of his conscience and the Kingdom of heaven The latter cannot bee denied in thesi no more then the former and when it comes to the Hypothesis there is much to bee trusted to the prudence and discretion of Pastors and ruling Elders and when all comes to all the failing is more like to be in the defect then in the excesse But to say that a